Knicks Morning News (2022.01.21)

  • NBA preview: Washington Wizards welcome Toronto Raptors as New York Knicks host Los Angeles Clippers – Modern Ghana
    [www.modernghana.com] — Friday, January 21, 2022 4:18:00 AM

    NBA preview: Washington Wizards welcome Toronto Raptors as New York Knicks host Los Angeles Clippers  Modern Ghana

  • Knicks Cap Off an Awful Week, Plus Joe Benigno Makes Divisional Picks – The Ringer
    [www.theringer.com] — Friday, January 21, 2022 12:08:49 AM

    Knicks Cap Off an Awful Week, Plus Joe Benigno Makes Divisional Picks  The Ringer

  • Tom Thibodeau on Knicks’ three-game losing streak: ‘We’ve got to work our way out of this’ – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 11:57:00 PM

    Tom Thibodeau on Knicks’ three-game losing streak: ‘We’ve got to work our way out of this’  Yahoo Sports

  • Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks are broken – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 11:45:00 PM

    Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks are broken  New York Post Is It Time To Worry About The Knicks?  Sports IllustratedPelicans 102, Knicks 91: Scenes from a bench-led super-fake comeback  Posting and ToastingNew York Knicks vs. New Orleans Pelicans: Betting preview, predictions  Daily KnicksCan Pelicans end their road woes vs. the Knicks? Odds and bets  Pelican DebriefView Full Coverage on Google News

  • The New York Knicks Have Waived A Player And Signed A Player – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:40:45 PM

    The New York Knicks Have Waived A Player And Signed A Player  Sports Illustrated

  • Julius Randle’s nightmarish night sinks Knicks in loss to Pelicans – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:17:00 PM

    Julius Randle’s nightmarish night sinks Knicks in loss to Pelicans  New York Post

  • New Orleans 102, N.Y. Knicks 91 – The Advocate
    [www.stamfordadvocate.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:09:28 PM

    New Orleans 102, N.Y. Knicks 91  The Advocate

  • Tom Thibodeau: Cam Reddish’s Knicks debut ‘should be any day now’ – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 9:48:00 PM

    Tom Thibodeau: Cam Reddish’s Knicks debut ‘should be any day now’  New York Post

  • Open Floor: In Conversation: Spike Lee With SI’s Chris Herring – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 9:15:07 PM

    Open Floor: In Conversation: Spike Lee With SI’s Chris Herring  Sports Illustrated

  • NBA: New Orleans Pelicans at New York Knicks | Fieldlevel | mdjonline.com – MDJOnline.com
    [www.mdjonline.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 8:40:19 PM

    NBA: New Orleans Pelicans at New York Knicks | Fieldlevel | mdjonline.com  MDJOnline.com

  • Knicks’ Mitchell Robinson making big strides: ‘He’s growing’ – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:58:00 PM

    Knicks’ Mitchell Robinson making big strides: ‘He’s growing’  New York Post

  • FanDuel Makes New York Knicks 219.5-Point Underdog vs. Pelicans in Latest Sportsbook Promotion – The Action Network
    [www.actionnetwork.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:45:00 PM

    FanDuel Makes New York Knicks 219.5-Point Underdog vs. Pelicans in Latest Sportsbook Promotion  The Action Network

  • Devonte’ Graham’s Status For Pelicans-Knicks Game – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:19:11 PM

    Devonte’ Graham’s Status For Pelicans-Knicks Game  Sports Illustrated

  • Are the New York Knicks preparing for a trade for New Orleans’s Zion Williamson? – Camden News
    [www.camdenarknews.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 6:17:27 PM

    Are the New York Knicks preparing for a trade for New Orleans’s Zion Williamson?  Camden News

  • How to Watch New Orleans Pelicans at New York Knicks: Live Stream, TV Channel, Start Time – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 5:00:00 PM

    How to Watch New Orleans Pelicans at New York Knicks: Live Stream, TV Channel, Start Time  Sports Illustrated

  • New York Knicks vs. New Orleans Pelicans NBA betting odds, lines, trends – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 4:15:00 PM

    New York Knicks vs. New Orleans Pelicans NBA betting odds, lines, trends  New York Post

  • New Orleans Pelicans at New York Knicks odds, picks and predictions – Santa Rosa Press Gazette
    [www.srpressgazette.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 1:43:40 PM

    New Orleans Pelicans at New York Knicks odds, picks and predictions  Santa Rosa Press Gazette

  • No, the Knicks aren’t getting Zion Williamson in a trade, stop – Pelican Debrief
    [pelicandebrief.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 12:35:25 PM

    No, the Knicks aren’t getting Zion Williamson in a trade, stop  Pelican Debrief

  • Jalen Brunson, De’Aaron Fox and more Knicks trade chatter | Begley’s Mailbag – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 12:31:58 PM

    Jalen Brunson, De’Aaron Fox and more Knicks trade chatter | Begley’s Mailbag  Yahoo Sports

  • Reacting to H.H’s ridiculous potential NY Knicks trade article – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:00:00 AM

    Reacting to H.H’s ridiculous potential NY Knicks trade article  Daily Knicks

  • There’s A Guaranteed Win Among New York Knicks, Brooklyn Nets Odds – TheLines.com
    [www.thelines.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 9:38:28 AM

    There’s A Guaranteed Win Among New York Knicks, Brooklyn Nets Odds  TheLines.com

  • Westchester Knicks beat Maine Celtics behind 16 assists from Miles McBride – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 9:31:51 AM

    Westchester Knicks beat Maine Celtics behind 16 assists from Miles McBride  Posting and Toasting

  • Knicks’ Blueprint for 2022 NBA Trade Deadline – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 9:04:06 AM

    Knicks’ Blueprint for 2022 NBA Trade Deadline  Bleacher Report

  • Can the Knicks wait out Derrick Rose’s injury? | Trade deadline offers a solution – Empire Sports Media
    [empiresportsmedia.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 8:05:44 AM

    Can the Knicks wait out Derrick Rose’s injury? | Trade deadline offers a solution  Empire Sports Media

  • Julius Randle, the New York Knicks and the burden of expectations – ESPN
    [www.espn.com] — Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:51:37 AM

    Julius Randle, the New York Knicks and the burden of expectations  ESPNJulius Randle’s nightmarish night sinks Knicks in loss to Pelicans  New York Post Julius Randle and the NY Knicks have a vibes issue  Daily KnicksNBA News: New York Knicks Get Julius Randle Back in Mix  Sports IllustratedKnicks’ Batman and Robin can propel them to the postseason  Empire Sports MediaView Full Coverage on Google News

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    207 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.01.21)”

    1. I was expecting some dark times ahead when we went on this long road trip. And I was maybe even expecting that trip to go so badly that Leon would have no choice but to try to sell at the deadline. I was not expecting us to go into that spiral here when we were still in the soft underbelly of the schedule. This really sucks.

    2. So, I’m pretty much done with this season. I think we need to try dumping some players, particularly Randle who’s quickly going to become an albatross (if he isn’t already); the 4 year/$117M extension he signed doesn’t even begin until next season, he’s still playing on the last year of his original contract now. I think we should engage with the Lakers. As everyone predicted, the Westbrook trade has been a disaster but he only has one more year left on his contract after this season. We could offer up Randle/Fournier or Randle/Burks/Kemba for Westbrook and a future 1st. We get rid of Randle’s contract and get a 1st round pick, the Lakers dump Westbrook and get some of the shooting they desperately need around Lebron.

    3. vincoug: We could offer up Randle/Fournier or Randle/Burks/Kemba for Westbrook and a future 1st. We get rid of Randle’s contract and get a 1st round pick, the Lakers dump Westbrook and get some of the shooting they desperately need around Lebron.

      I agree, we should sell vets for young players/picks and tank this season. On your proposal, Randle, Fournier and Kemba it’s okay, but keep Burks to send to another team for a 1RP. I think we can get one for him. Maybe another for DRose. Noel for 2RPs.

    4. It’s hard to believe they capped themselves out on this roster and the fact that they’re capped out on this roster makes this quite possibly the low point. They’re better than maybe two teams that are actually trying (*), and they’re capped out, playing four guys 30 or older in their rotation and another guy who’s going to be 30 in October. They aren’t even remotely in a place where they should be skewing that old.

      I can’t remember a bigger sports mirage, ever, than their 14-4 to close out last season. They drew all the wrong lessons from that, and even the playoff debacle didn’t shake them out of it.

      This is the low. An important deadline coming up; hopefully the FO will exceed the low confidence bar I have for them. With Dolan and Thibs around, I don’t see them doing anything remotely like dumping Randle and Fournier to the Lakers — though I totally agree they should.

      (*) They aren’t better, for example, than the Pelicans even ex-Zion; with Zion, it isn’t even close.

    5. Alan: And this draft doesn’t seem to be as strong or as deep as last year’s. Perfect.

      Yeah, that’s a bummer. But if we do things right, maybe we can go 8th for the draft, and finally the basketball gods are on our side and we jump to Top4 (26.3%) and take Jaden Ivey.

    6. I think the Lakers would give up a lot more than people think to dump Westbrook for some productive players, assuming LeBron still exerts mighty influence over the organization.

    7. I did the right thing for once and choose sleep over frustration, I watched the game this morning at breakfast (definitively not “breakfast of the champions”).

      This team has totally tuned out his broken-record coach and the presumed leader pushed away a teammate that tried to avoid him an ejection: STFU!

      I want them to trade every player over 26 years old, but at the same time a Westbrook trade can be the straw that convince me to shut the Knicks for this season and as of now, according to Bobby Marks the earliest first the Lakers can trade is that of 2027 due to the Davis trade with the Pels.
      I’m too old to wait 5 years to discover if the Lakers will be in the lottery when Lebron retires…

      But we’ll win the next game with the depleted Clippers and all will be fine, just one game below .500 and then maybe X can happen or Y happen or Z can happen.
      In the immortal words of Mitch Zen Robinson: relax!

    8. cybersoze: I agree, we should sell vets for young players/picks and tank this season. On your proposal, Randle, Fournier and Kemba it’s okay, but keep Burks to send to another team for a 1RP. I think we can get one for him. Maybe another for DRose. Noel for 2RPs.

      I’m down for all of that.

      E, all merc’d out: It’s hard to believe they capped themselves out on this roster and the fact that they’re capped out on this roster makes this quite possibly the low point.

      Not only are we capped out, Mitch is an UFA this summer and both RJ and Cam are RFA next summer.

      The good news is, we can quickly rise in the tankathon rankings. Right now, we only have an 8.5% chance at a top 4 pick but we’re only 3 games behind Portland which has a 20.3% chance at a top 4 pick. And we’re only 5 games back of Indy with a 42% chance of a top 4 pick with San Antonio, New Orleans, and Sacramento in between. Except for maybe Indy, I don’t think any of those teams are interested in tanking. I think we have a real chance to rise quickly in the lottery.

    9. Does LeBron like Randle? Does Fizdale? Randle played like shit for Fizdale and Fizdale seems to have LBJ’s ear, so it’s an interesting question.

    10. vincoug: Portland (…) Indy (…) San Antonio, New Orleans, and Sacramento in between. Except for maybe Indy, I don’t think any of those teams are interested in tanking. I think we have a real chance to rise quickly in the lottery.

      POR is definitely tanking, they just keep their pick if it’s in the lottery.

    11. This is judgment day for Leon. He made mistakes this offseason, but if he pivots from them successfully all will be forgiven. He cannot stick with this team. Even if you can’t fleece the Lakers like I hope you can, just dump Randle & Evan and let Westbrook drive the tank for the rest of the season. It’s the right thing to do.

    12. Not only are we capped out, Mitch is an UFA this summer and both RJ and Cam are RFA next summer.

      Only one of those players is good

    13. according to Bobby Marks the earliest first the Lakers can trade is that of 2027 due to the Davis trade with the Pels.

      We could acquire the Lakers 1st round picks in 2026 and 2028. I understand that’s far off, but those are great assets (especially if you can get one without protection).

    14. That was easily the most depressing loss of the season. Randle not only played terribly, but was acting like a deranged psycho. And he’s our “franchise player”. Plus, we allowed guys like Trini Alvarado and DeVonte Graham, with their combined height of 11 feet, to shit all over us

      I don’t even know what to say any more about this team. At least when we sucked in the past we were supposed to suck, but we came into this year full of hope and with the brutal schedule on the horizon, we could easily be a 35 win team.

      Blow NY blow NY blow NY blow…

    15. This is judgment day for Leon. He made mistakes this offseason, but if he pivots from them successfully all will be forgiven. He cannot stick with this team. Even if you can’t fleece the Lakers like I hope you can, just dump Randle & Evan and let Westbrook drive the tank for the rest of the season. It’s the right thing to do.

      You all know me. I’m team optimist till I die but last night was definitely an ice cold shower of realism. Really disappointing how we’ve played these last 3 games. We had a chance here to be 4 or 5 games over 500 going into the tough schedule.

      It would pain me to see Westbrook here but if we got out of Randle and Fournier earlier, it wouldn’t be the worst thing to have him here for one more year. Maybe he puts up numbers and we trade him as an expiring next year?

      I do think our young players have promise and are playing bad right now because of poor fit/chemistry. I would try to hold on to Burks and Rose, Taj as locker room veteran presences for us. I think those dudes are all professionals and would suck up being on a bad team. Hell, the team might actually play better with the youngsters running things. We have our picks, we could open up cap space next year. All is not lost as far as long term building a winner but this sucks for sure. Hard to believe we were 5-1 to start the season.

    16. One thing I never anticipated is Woodson nostalgia, now pretty common on r/nyknicks. I thought 12/13 playoffs and 13/14 season exposed him to be a fraud who benefited from melo’s motivation to prove he wasn’t a brat for feuding with MDA and pouting about Linsanity.

      It’s also crazy to me that people think the Knicks have been rebuilding the last 7 years or whatever instead of just sucking. There has only been one season the Knicks really went for the tank: when they wanted Zion. Otherwise, the Knicks have looked similar to how they look now… Mediocrity on the back of mid/late career vets with just enough youth that you could convince yourself they were on an upwards trajectory with homer goggles on.

    17. Things feel really dire. I get that. Because they are.

      I really have a hard time believing how bad RJ and Randle have been lately.

      At least Mitch is back to being exactly what he has always been. If they let him go that will probably be the nadir for me.

    18. The only Woodson nostalgia I have is the flashback of seeing a coach who got too much credit in his first year get exposed in his second.

    19. 1. Dump Randle & Kemba.

      2. The rest of the vets Rose can slow play. We have them for several years and they should keep or improve their value. Wait for the right deal.

      3. Hold Noel. He’s got immense value for Thibs when healthy but minimal trade value after being hurt all year.

    20. And I know we all hate Westbrook, but in a way he is perfect for us here at KB. He’s a big enough name to trick Dolan and the casual Knicks fan into thinking we’re not actually tanking, and he’s a bad enough player that he will absolutely lead us into to the top of the lottery.

      (And people call me a pessimist. That might be the most optimistic statement ever written.)

    21. I don’t even care about the draft picks. Give me Russ if we can get out of Randle’s contract.

      Forget about last year, I’m yearning for 1st year Knick Randle.

    22. I read that link, Max. I had no idea Rob Lowe was the GM of the Lakers. Anyway, the Pelicans own the Lakers pick in 2024, but they also own the right to defer it to 2025. I think the Lakers can trade 2026 and 2028, but the picks would be pushed back a year if the Pelicans defer.

    23. Max:
      Can we trade for John Wall instead (the money is the same)? At least he’s a PG…

      They won’t want Randle to tie up future cap space. I’m not sure LA will either, but LeBron wants win now players. HOU absolutely does not want win now players.

    24. Looks like a lot of fun Alan. I have to get five copies of that book to remind friends why I am a Knicks fan.

      Westbrook, man, watching him for a whole season would give me an aneurysm.

    25. with just enough youth

      I think we have more than “just enough” youth. I see your point about the last 7 years but there has never been a time in the last 20 years when the Knicks had so much youth on their team. The only time that was close was the pre-Melo STAT led Knicks with Gallo, Chandler, Mosgov, etc. But right now we have RJ, Mitch, IQ, Obi, Grimes, Sims on the team now and McBride and Rokas in the G-League/overseas. Plus even with the STAT collection of kids we were short on first round picks because Donnie had traded some to get rid of players for 2010. We also do have all of our first and lots of seconds plus the dallas pick. Asset wise we are not in a bad spot.

      Of course, I don’t know if any of the young players have future star written on them. MAYBE RJ. But Gallo and Wilson Chandler weren’t exactly perrenial all-stars in the making.

      I think we have the pieces for a future good team IF we can find a star to join our young players (without giving them up in the process).

      But we are in a tricky spot.

      I also do think holding on to Rose, Burks, Noel for now makes sense unless there is a deal out there now that brings back picks for them. Rose and Noel can easily increase their value by next year once they get healthy again.

    26. We’ve gone from the knicks are getting their mojo back to blow it up the season is ruined in 3 games

    27. Someone think Dolan will buyout Westbrook’s 47 millions next year?

      No way. He’d plaster his face all over billboards and use him as a draw to sell tickets to casual fans.

      We all know how superficial his production is. But the guy did average a triple double last year.

    28. Count me out on Westbrook. Yes he would drive the tank and rid us of some negative assets, but he would be toxic for the youngins’ development. Leon’s got to put his thinking cap on and get more creative (no pun intended) than that.

    29. DRed: We’ve gone from the knicks are getting their mojo back to blow it up the season is ruined in 3 games

      It is quite a rare feat to lose 3 home games in 4 days.

    30. It’s the Knicks, so I guess I should’ve anticipated all the good vibes of last season leading to nothing but locking in a bad team with middling levels of young talent. Still kind of surprising how quickly it all went to shit.

      It brings me no pleasure to welcome more riders aboard the “Randle is an albatross” train. The Lakers are the only team in the NBA I could see being interested in him, but even they would almost definitely prefer to save the Westbrook + pick bullet for something better. In the overcrowded “hope I’m wrong” department, pretty sure Randle will either be here for 4 more season or we’ll give up assets to dump his contract.

      Some smaller, realistic things we can do to salvage the season:
      -Trade Burks
      -Play Obi a lot more–with Randle, without Randle, whatever, we need more data
      -Play McBride, like, at all
      -Give every single Taj Gibson minute to Reddish and/or Obi

    31. Obi went into a complete shell after the backup quarterback remark.

      It’s really weird that Taj Gibson is such a significant member of this team. Not just incompetent or stupid — weird.(*)

      Put the young guys out there, gain some athleticism, get the pace numbers off the stupidass Thibs 30th out of 30, put the ball in RJ’s hands, go from there.

      (*) Thibs said a bunch of weird shit about what metrics he “looks at” on defense in today’s Post, but it’s not worth a detailed diatribe and new round of meta navel-gazing. But the dude’s just a weirdo, substantively and stylistically.

    32. As usual, I’m excited about the tank, I mean, draft. There are some guys having insanely good college seasons right now, plus Shaedon Sharpe, a top-5 guy that was supposed to be in the ’23 draft, is eligible for this year’s draft. Guys like Kendall Brown, AJ Griffin, and Keegan Murray all project to be better than RJ, who was #3 in that draft, and they could be available at #7 or #8. Then there are all the raw G-league guys… as well as the older college guys tearing it up like Liddell and Trevion Williams. That’s why I’m down on the Reddish trade, as he’s been crappy at both levels so far, unlike many of these guys…

    33. DRed: Only one of those players is good

      You know that, I know that, but this front office just traded an incinerated future 1st round pick for Cam so do they know that?

      swiftandabundant: Of course, I don’t know if any of the young players have future star written on them. MAYBE RJ. But Gallo and Wilson Chandler weren’t exactly perrenial all-stars in the making.

      I think Gallo would have been but he had a ton of injuries including I think a torn ACL.

      BernieEarnie: It is quite a rare feat to lose 3 home games in 4 days.

      All while in the easy part of the schedule right before it gets really hard the rest of the way.

    34. Alan:
      On the plus side, my event with Chris Herring and Mero is tonight. A chance to focus on a more entertaining and tougher team:

      https://talkshop.live/watch/8ir6Vdgl51no

      Started reading the book, the beginning of which focuses on Riley and his methodology. His approach clearly explains why Miami is 29-16 while enduring a lengthy absence from Bam, and continuing absences from Butler and Lowery. Winning on the backs of Yurtseven, Strus, Caleb Martin, and Vincent demonstrate the efficacy of Riley’s approach.

    35. I really wish that in my heart of hearts I believed that the front office could see what is incredibly obvious to all of us: that there’s nothing left to fight for this season and they should trade what they can and play the young guys. Unfortunately I suspect that Leon is working the phones with extra urgency this morning trying to do whatever it takes to get Myles Turner or Jerami Grant.

    36. As usual, I’m excited about the tank, I mean, draft. There are some guys having insanely good college seasons right now, plus Shaedon Sharpe, a top-5 guy that was supposed to be in the ’23 draft, is eligible for this year’s draft. Guys like Kendall Brown, AJ Griffin, and Keegan Murray all project to be better than RJ, who was #3 in that draft, and they could be available at #7 or #8. Then there are all the raw G-league guys… as well as the older college guys tearing it up like Liddell and Trevion Williams. That’s why I’m down on the Reddish trade, as he’s been crappy at both levels so far, unlike many of these guys…

      I guess it’s time to begin the draft discussions in earnest. Paging djphan.

      I haven’t really done a deep dive but some of my early takes:
      -Chet > Banchero
      -TyTy is being weirdly underrated for a Kentucky guy
      -Kennedy Chandler is gonna go lower than he should because he’s short
      -Keegan Murray is better than a lot of guys projected to go ahead of him
      -Lower on Jabari Smith than the consensus

    37. BernieEarnie: It is quite a rare feat to lose 3 home games in 4 days.

      Three home games we absolutely should have won, mind you.

      If we do that during the remainder of the season, and otherwise play to the odds, we hit Brian’s 56! Only it’s losses.

      “The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.”

      Winston Churchill after the Knicks latest debacle…

      “Whoomp, there it is.”

      Tag Team

    38. Also, after all the victory laps following last season, this has been an unwelcome reminder that building a contender without high lottery picks is possible, but requires such an incredible combination of skill and luck that it’s probably unwise to think any given team can pull it off.

      It’s tempting to think this is a realistic path because an unusual number of current contenders did it to some extent, but when you look more closely at each situation you see a lot of stuff it’s just not smart to think you can replicate.

      Riley is a wizard, but where would the Heat be if the Sixers hadn’t made a moronic decision to hemorrhage Butler in service of a guy now holding out? Where would the Nets be if Durant doesn’t land awkwardly in the 2019 finals? I could go on and on but if we’re waiting to find our Giannis with a mediocre pick, the overwhelming likelihood is we’ll be waiting a long time. Maybe my whole lifetime.

    39. Early Bird: They won’t want Randle to tie up future cap space. I’m not sure LA will either, but LeBron wants win now players. HOU absolutely does not want win now players.

      Isn’t Randle a lose now player?

    40. swiftandabundant: there has never been a time in the last 20 years when the Knicks had so much youth on their team. The only time that was close was the pre-Melo STAT led Knicks with Gallo, Chandler, Mosgov, etc. But right now we have RJ, Mitch, IQ, Obi, Grimes, Sims on the team now and McBride and Rokas in the G-League/overseas.

      I missed the game last night b/c of work stuff but reading that thread and this one is depressing. I’m still encouraged by Swift’s comments above, though, and I wonder what we think the problem is. Does the team have a poor mental outlook and or some “wrong fit” type stuff, or are the guys just not as good as we hope they will be.

      To be sure, we’ve seen flashes of a very promising team, but is that only against bad opponents? Or are we one DRose return away from a run like last year’s, and one new player like him away from a consistent, exciting young squad.

      My biggest worry is Thibs doesn’t seem to have much creativity. I like the guy, and “play harder!” can work up to a point, but I just don’t see him staying up late at night trying to figure out alternative solutions to the same problem.

    41. BTW did anyone notice that the Pacers beat the Warriors in GS with a starting lineup of Holiday, Craig, Duarte, Bitadze and Sykes?

      Strange days indeed, most peculiar mama….

    42. ess-dog: As usual, I’m excited about the tank, I mean, draft.

      Same as it ever was.

      Basketball season is always the worst time of year when you’re a Knicks fan.

    43. The “he hasn’t made any major blunders doe” narrative about Leon Rose needs to go away now. We are a mediocre team chasing the 10th seed and it has been one uninspired decision after the next that has gotten us here. It’s going to take some out of the box thinking to turn this around and Leon Rose has not shown me he has the chops for that, so we’re probably going to be circling the drain for a while.

      Should have made that 19th pick that has now turned into 1.5 years of Cam Reddish.

    44. Should have made that 19th pick that has now turned into 1.5 years of Cam Reddish.

      How dare you!

    45. The “he hasn’t made any major blunders doe” narrative about Leon Rose needs to go away now.

      Leon started making blunders right off the bat, and we said as much then.

      I would like to tread carefully bc it’s an inopportune time to gloat. But people on this board were constantly and vociferously berated and insulted for raising concerns about the process and doubting the validity of our results.

      Now everyone can see that we were right all along, and the people who called us ignorant, stupid, thibs & leon haters are either silent or pretending like they never said such things.

    46. I sometimes find it helpful to remind myself that it really ain’t worth twisting my kishkas into a knot over this shit. That it’s just entertainment.

      That’s easy to lose sight of when the teams you follow year in and year out are not, y’know, entertaining.

    47. thenoblefacehumper: -TyTy is being weirdly underrated for a Kentucky guy

      Yeah, if we don’t chase the 10th seed and the privilege to be kicked out in the first game of the play-in, probably we’ll be in position to get TyTy.
      Otoh, it’s the Knicks, so the script might be like this:
      1) TyTy is between 10th and 12th all year;
      2) Knicks tank late in the season, or don’t tank at all but miss the play-in by 1 game and are 10th for the draft;
      3) TyTy is still available, like 12th;
      4) In the lottery somehow we manage to be leapfrogged by 1 team behind us and are down to 11th;
      5) TyTy is 11th all the way till the week of the draft (or even the day);
      6) Team in 9th doesn’t select him, he’s still available;
      7) Team in 10th selects him;
      8) Leon is discombobulated and selects… the new Jordan Hill;

      Edit: Any thoughts on JD Davison? He looks like a super fun player.

    48. cybersoze: Yeah, if we don’t chase the 10th seed and the privilege to be kicked out in the first game of the play-in, probably we’ll be in position to get TyTy.
      Otoh, it’s the Knicks, so the script might be like this:
      1) TyTy is between 10th and 12th all year;
      2) Knicks tank late in the season, or don’t tank at all but miss the play-in by 1 game and are 10th for the draft;
      3) TyTy is still available, like 12th;
      4) In the lottery somehow we manage to be leapfrogged by 1 team behind us and are down to 11th;
      5) TyTy is 11th all the way till the week of the draft (or even the day);
      6) Team in 9th doesn’t select him, he’s still available;
      7) Team in 10th selects him;

      Correction. Leon trades our pick for a future, highly protected pick with almost no chance that it will end up higher then our current pick.

    49. cybersoze: Leon is discombobulated and selects… the new Jordan Hill;

      Hey don’t knock Jordan. He did land us a half season of a cooked Tracy McGrady.

    50. As usual, I disagree with the consensus other than those calling for trading Randle.

      First, I think we should forget about the “Is Simmons mentally weak” controversy and dedicate a thread to the “is Randle mentally weak” question.

      Setting aside his flaws that I’m always whining about. Randle is still a player with a lot of skills. He has just completely fallen apart. There’s no way this is some random distribution of bad play. It’s not just the lack of spacing and a good PG. Those things have been issues all along. I suspect he never really mentally recovered from the playoffs last year, got off to slow start, the fans turned on him, and he has completely fallen apart and checked out mentally. And I think the other players have picked up on it and it’s impacting their energy also.

      This team has more talent than it has been showing over the last few games. They are mailing it in. I guess some of that is on Thibs, but I’m not sure what you can do when your “star” player has lost his confidence, is not happy, and it’s dragging everyone else down, other than having a talk with him and asking him if he wants out.

      Other than fixing the Randle situation (preferably by trade from my perspective), I think we should stay the course and look for ways to improve the team via trade, free agency and draft with due consideration for both the short and long term. We have a lot of young talent, some flexibility, and excess draft picks. I’m OK with our position even if frustrated by these last few games and what’s likely to happen when the schedule gets tougher.

    51. Count de Pennies: it really ain’t worth twisting my kishkas into a knot over this shit.

      Sure isn’t. A month in, and it sure felt like this board was experiencing “denial.” The ensuing 500-post threads about role-player trade targets (aka MyGM mode) really feels like the “bargaining” stage. Even our insufferably optimistic swift has entered “depression.” E, of course, is perpetually surfing waves of “anger.” Me? I have reached acceptance, and it didn’t even take a heroic dose of psilocybin to get there.

    52. Yes, Randle’s mentally weak but it doesn’t matter because even in purely basketball terms he was never the guy to make the centerpiece of this team and doing that was a massive mistake. Unwinding that mistake is the first order of business. It doesn’t necessarily even have to be a trade, at least in theory, because I credit the argument that’s been made around here that even in a normalized role, he’s not overpaid at his current number. (For the record, I think he would be marginally overpaid in that scenario).

      It could be that this is all theoretical, too, in that there’s no real way to normalize his role. I happen to think that’s the core function of a head coach and if the head coach can’t accomplish the primary basketball task in front of him, it means he’s not really that super a head coach — but that’s a secondary consideration.

      This team is going nowhere with Randle in this featured role. I need the data points that would come from Randle in the proper role to really make an assessment, and we’re unlikely to get those data points.

    53. Other than fixing the Randle situation (preferably by trade from my perspective), I think we should stay the course and look for ways to improve the team via trade, free agency and draft with due consideration for both the short and long term.

      Heh. Stay the course. Great idea.

      Leon Rose, much like Phil Jackson before him, is trying the Strat method of trying to improve in the short term and long term simultaneously. You could say he’s doing it The Strat Way. The results aren’t so hot, because as TNFH mentioned above, in practice it is very difficult to try to build a winner in this incremental way. Your solution seems to be “keep doing this, but do it better.”

      One thing that NEVER happens is the true patient rebuild that focuses on young players. We will never know what it’s like to do that, because we do this fake contending “two track” bullshit instead. You will probably get your wish, as Leon Rose doesn’t seem to have any other setting besides “stay the course.” We’ll find out how well staying the course works out I’m sure.

    54. I think we should stay the course and look for ways to improve the team via trade, free agency and draft with due consideration for both the short and long term.

      There is no fan of any team in any sport that doesn’t think their team should be doing this. It’s just Stratspeak for “I would simply improve the team without doing anything stupid.” The problem is it’s so vague it’s meaningless.

      Do you prioritize the short or long term? If there’s an acquisition that presents a clear tradeoff between the two, as almost every NBA transaction does, which one do you pick?

    55. JK47:
      The “he hasn’t made any major blunders doe” narrative about Leon Rose needs to go away now. We are a mediocre team chasing the 10th seed and it has been one uninspired decision after the next that has gotten us here. It’s going to take some out of the box thinking to turn this around and Leon Rose has not shown me he has the chops for that, so we’re probably going to be circling the drain for a while.

      Should have made that 19th pick that has now turned into 1.5 years of Cam Reddish.

      I openly pined for Keon Johnson. I wish the Knicks would have taken him, even though he’s not really done anything yet for the Clippers.

    56. It’s obvious this “core” is not doing jackshit. Julius Randle cannot be the highest usage player on a sustainably good team and Fournier, Burks, et al. aren’t good enough to materially change that. You could put some lipstick on the pig by making a stupid trade for Turner or whatever, but that would just be doubling down on this morass.

      We need a full directional shift. We tried to get cute with the whole “win now and still build for the future thing” and the result was that we didn’t win now and didn’t build much of anything for the future.

      We’re way, way behind OKC/Houston/Orlando, not to mention Memphis, in the future asset stockpiling race, but who knows, it only takes some luck in the lottery/draft to change that. I don’t see any other path to contention–fake it ’til you make it has officially failed.

    57. JK47: You will probably get your wish, as Leon Rose doesn’t seem to have any other setting besides “stay the course.”

      I think that is a bit unfair, or at least pre-mature. He selected a course (which is very fair to criticise) and it seemed to be working. In the off-season he doubled down on it, and only in the last month or so do we have enough objective evidence that a pretty sizeable pivot is needed. If he does nothing by the deadline (irregardless of how well or poorly they play) you will be 100% correct. But at least give him to the deadline to execute a pivot.

    58. Yeah, I don’t see it as Rose’s fault that Randle has imploded. Nobody expected him to be this bad.

      RJ sucks. That’s not really Rose’s fault either.

    59. thenoblefacehumper: I think we should stay the course and look for ways to improve the team via trade, free agency and draft with due consideration for both the short and long term.

      The problem with this is that every single one of the other 29 teams are spending millions of dollars and people-hours also trying to get better. How is it proposed that the Knicks catch up with these teams and pass them? More of the same? Seems a bit … optimistic.

    60. I think that is a bit unfair, or at least pre-mature. He selected a course (which is very fair to criticise) and it seemed to be working. In the off-season he doubled down on it, and only in the last month or so do we have enough objective evidence that a pretty sizeable pivot is needed. If he does nothing by the deadline (irregardless of how well or poorly they play) you will be 100% correct. But at least give him to the deadline to execute a pivot.

      Yeah, I’ve got one foot out the door but I’m not totally out on them yet. I made plenty of contemporaneous criticisms but most moves were at least defensible, even if I would’ve gone down a different path entirely.

      It’s the first time we have irrefutable evidence that this, whatever it is, is not going to work. I’ll give them a chance to wiggle out of the mess they created, but it won’t be easy.

    61. How is it proposed that the Knicks catch up with these teams and pass them? More of the same? Seems a bit … optimistic.

      Win the trades

    62. At the very least give Rose until the trade deadline. Even then there’s an argument for keeping Julius because he should not be as bad as he’s been this year.

    63. There was really no serious sense in which the path Leon Rose allegedly “chose” was working. The team had an obviously flukish 24-game regular season stretch — the last 18 games of last year, first six of this year — when they somehow, some way, managed to go 19-5. Sandwiched around that are close to 100 games of under .500 basketball and a complete and utter demolishing in the playoffs by a lower seed that isn’t even in the top 10 in the East this year.

      EDIT: My bad — 16-4 to end last year.

    64. We’re way, way behind OKC/Houston/Orlando, not to mention Memphis

      Remember the “would you trade rosters with the Cavs?” debate from earlier in the season? That was probably peak denial.

    65. In hindsight, the worst thing that happened to us was that Randle found an open gym during the lockdown.

    66. Yes, Randle’s mentally weak but it doesn’t matter because even in purely basketball terms he was never the guy to make the centerpiece of this team and doing that was a massive mistake.

      He was NEVER EVER going to be the #1 option and they have KNOWN THAT ALL ALONG.

      That’s why they stockpiled picks and pushed one out. They were and still are looking for an opportunity to get a #1 option via trade, free agency or moving up up the draft instead of bringing another 19 year old role player for everyone to want to trade as soon as he starts shaving. :-)

    67. People are on the right track with a Westbrook trade. Here was my proposal to a Lakers fan, which he accepted:

      Knicks get: Westbrook, Nunn, Monk, 2026 and 2028 first round picks (deferred to 2027/2029 if New Orleans defers their 2024 choice)
      Lakers get: Randle, Rose, Burks

      The Lakers can’t just bench Westbrook because of his status, even though he’s actively hurting them. This takes that problem off their hands. They get a competent 3rd option in Randle who allows LeBron to play the 3, which he prefers. Rose will start for them and is a guy that LeBron will covet because he was awesome 10 years ago. He’ll actually help them a lot, like a rich man’s Rondo. Burks would be their best 2-way wing.

      The Knicks let Westbrook drive the tank this year, then cut or trade him as an expiring next summer. Nunn and Monk are two intriguing young players I wanted in the offseason; we can take a look at both and re-sign one of them this summer. We get out from Randle’s last 3 years, and get two picks that will come after LeBron and AD are already retired/washed.

      Works for everyone.

    68. Peak denial to me is the complete incongruity between, “Oh, we have a very promising roster with a lot of good young talent, Leon’s plan is working!” and “We had no chance to beat the Hawks, they’re way more talented than us.”

    69. The Julius situation is really kind of interesting. “Mentally weak” is a catch-all phrase that is essentially meaningless. It’s clear that he’s been struggling since the playoffs, and it’s been a swirling-down-the drainpipe experience for him. He’s lost his shot (yesterday he was 1-9!!!), which is weird (yes, he made insane shots last year, but he’s missing even wide-open ones this year). But he’s still trying on D most of the time — with periodic lapses that seem driven by his overall boiling-over frustration at his own crappy play. And he’s passing like mad, which makes me think he’s being coached to be more of a distributor and he’s really trying to do that. But perhaps to the detriment of his overall play.

      Honestly it’s not clear what’s going on, but it’s definitely rubber-necking at a slow-motion car crash. The tech yesterday captured what it feels like is happening with him — he’s so frustrated he’s literally at the breaking point.

      Maybe that’s a form of mentally weak, but it’s one that seems could be fixed with Xanax, rather than Red Bull.

    70. I have no idea why he’s handling the ball anywhere close to the amount he’s handling it. It makes zero sense from a basketball perspective. The only explanation is that he wants to and Thibodeau doesn’t want to fight him on it. That dynamic is nauseating and I’m just completely done with it. Progress is impossible until it changes.

    71. You know what’s really sad? I have a “We Here” hat that they gave me last year as a season ticket holder before the playoffs, and now I can’t bear to even wear it because I’m so down on Randle.

      Maybe I can get a milliner to change “We Here” to “We Suck”

    72. Part of the reason I’m team optimist is that I think oftentimes the margin between good moves and bad moves is quite small and sometimes good moves don’t work out and thus, people say they’re bad moves. But the are alternate realities where they do work out.

      Example. I think the general consensus this off season was that resigning Rose, Burks, Noel, and Taj for the money and length we did were all good moves. But did anyone think Noel would basically miss the whole season up to this point? We all knew Mitch would be rusty coming back but I think most thought, well if that is the case, Noel can start until Mitch gets his legs back and we’ll be fine. Instead, Noel got hurt right away, Mitch was out of shape and we were giving minutes to Taj and Sims almost immediately, that cratered our interior defense from the beginning of the season.

      Kemba was a no brainer risk. We all knew Rose and Kemba were old but I think it was fair to assume that they could split the minutes at PG and with IQ and others also sharing the ball handling duties, it would work out. It didn’t. Kemba was a disaster on defense and got hurt. Rose was great but he also got hurt.

      Most people thought Randle took a very reasonable extension. The thing with him is he could easily come back next year and kick ass again.

      Most people thought Fournier as a fair signing and would give us more wrinkles and an upgrade on offense. He really hasn’t so far.

      We can look back now and say ” Leon made all these bad moves.” But we’re only saying that because of the record. Sometimes good or decent moves don’t work out. Sometimes gambles do work out.

      So I think the pitchforks for Leon are premature. Even if he is uninspired, firing another GM, another coach…is that really the answer? We have young players, draft picks and can open up cap space in the next few years. I think we can be fine but of course the path is more narrow now and there will be more scrutiny. I think we can say the…

    73. Knicks get: Westbrook, Nunn, Monk, 2026 and 2028 first round picks (deferred to 2027/2029 if New Orleans defers their 2024 choice)
      Lakers get: Randle, Rose, Burks

      I still think the Lakers want to save the Westbrook + picks bullet for something better and with a gun to my head I’d say they’re a no on this, but it’s not crazy and we should 100% do it if it’s on the table.

      The only thing is I would cut Westbrook before he so much as gets a warm up shirt because the Knicksiness potential associated with him ever suiting up greatly outweighs whatever benefits that might bring us.

    74. I still have my black “We Here” t-shirt which I wore to all three home playoff games.

    75. Yesterday, someone posted a somewhat revisionist take on Isaiah Thomas, assessing his tenure through the lens of ” James Dolan does not do rebuilds”. If this is true, the task of Leon or any POBO is the very thread the needle approach that we are decrying here. Much more difficult to succeed.

    76. The original sin was letting Thibs have Derrick Rose. Some fluky wins against crap teams followed and locked in a bunch of stupid personnel decisions, plus it empowered Thibs on the personnel side which I’d bet a lot of money, helped lead to the incinerated pick.

    77. TheOakmanCometh: Knicks get: Westbrook, Nunn, Monk, 2026 and 2028 first round picks (deferred to 2027/2029 if New Orleans defers their 2024 choice)
      Lakers get: Randle, Rose, Burks

      I don’t see the Lakers doing this. Definitely not with two 1sts. Nunn is supposed to come back at some point still. He should be productive for them. Monk has been pretty productive, Im not sure Burks is meaningfully better. Randle isn’t good enough to warrant two 1sts right now.

    78. I mean sure, I’ll give Leon Rose until the trade deadline. Maybe he’ll shock me and trade the mercs for future assets and make some other shrewd moves that show he understands we need to change course and I’ll just be tickled pink.

      I’ll go ahead and wait for that, let’s see how that goinks.

    79. E, all merc’d out: There was really no serious sense in which the path Leon Rose allegedly “chose” was working. The team had an obviously flukish 24-game regular season stretch — the last 18 games of last year, first six of this year — when they somehow, some way, managed to go 19-5.

      Sorry E, that is hindsight talking. The moves that got us to where we are today were made in the off-season. No one, I mean no one, thought the end of season run was “obviously flukish.” (if I remember correctly, you were mysteriously silent during that stretch). The subsequent moves were made in an attempt to address the play-off thrashing. We know today they did not work, but not last August.

    80. ose, Burks, Noel, and Taj for the money and length we did were all good moves.

      I thought $18M AAV on Burks and Noel was inefficient and said so at the time. A few minor moves here and there and you have Lonzo Ball money instead.

      Kemba was a no brainer risk. We all knew Rose and Kemba were old but I think it was fair to assume that they could split the minutes at PG and with IQ and others also sharing the ball handling duties, it would work out. It didn’t. Kemba was a disaster on defense and got hurt. Rose was great but he also got hurt.

      I thought the platoon idea was perfectly fine as Plan A, but also that it was crazy to be shit-out-of-luck if Kemba Walker and/or Derrick Rose had to miss time. Said so at the time.

      Even if he is uninspired, firing another GM, another coach…is that really the answer?

      I wouldn’t fire him unless I had some way of knowing someone obviously better would take the job, but I think it’d be fair to reevaluate his job status after this offseason.

      We have young players, draft picks and can open up cap space in the next few years.

      The thing is, there are almost 30 teams who can claim this. The more relevant questions are:

      -Where does our core of, say, U24 talent ranks league wide?
      -Where does our stable of future draft picks rank league wide?
      -Who are realistic, game changing targets when we do finally have some cap space?

      I don’t find any of the answers particularly encouraging at the moment.

    81. thenoblefacehumper: It’s just Stratspeak for “I would simply improve the team without doing anything stupid.” The problem is it’s so vague it’s meaningless.

      Do you prioritize the short or long term? If there’s an acquisition that presents a clear tradeoff between the two, as almost every NBA transaction does, which one do you pick?

      This is what you do.

      1. You don’t panic like a child when things aren’t going well for a few games and blow things up prematurely or get too high when they are going better than expected and go all in on old player.

      2. You look at the market and make opportunistic deals when they are available.

      We don’t know now and will never know beforehand what will be available in the future. We only know what we need. We need a starting PG and a #1 option. We should keep trying to incrementally improve our position so as those currently unknown opportunities present themselves in the future those players will want to come to NY and we have the assets to get a deal done.

      A deal like Cam Reddish is exactly what we should be looking for. He’s going to help the team now. He has upside long term. Most scouts, players, coaches and managements are still high on him. That means if a deal for a much better player comes along, he can be used as an asset in that trade or we can keep developing him and maybe wind up with a very good player. I’d way rather have him than the pick they gave up or some 19 year they didn’t want in the draft.

      I don’t know what the next opportunity will be and neither does anyone else.

      What we’ve been doing since Rose took over has mostly been right. The only deal I’d argue with is Fournier, He’s not good enough to be a key piece long term. So there was no point in locking him up long term.

      We’ll see what comes up next. Rose doesn’t know yet. After the fact we can debate…

    82. Leon Rose hasn’t had any reason to make wholesale changes until recently. Usually those moves don’t happen before the trade deadline even if issues crop up earlier.

    83. You look at the market and make opportunistic deals when they are available.

      Uh… yeah. What’s the alternative? Making inopportune deals when they’re not available?

    84. I both didn’t like the offseason moves (except for Kemba) while also understanding that deciding to break up a #4 seed is very difficult for any GM to do, but I also thought that they’d slightly improve over last season’s regular season total and then get exposed in the playoffs again. I based their improvement on the notion that the Skiles Effect typically lasts at least two seasons, sometimes three (never more than three), but perhaps the league has changed. If you recall, Skiles himself A. hasn’t coached since 2016 and B. seemed to be turning around a shitty Orlando Magic team that season (started off at 19-13) before it all fell apart and he quit after that one season. Maybe the modern NBA player just doesn’t respond as well to the coaches whose main deal seems to be yelling at them to try harder? Or if they do, it lasts for a shorter period of time before they tune the coach out than in the past.

      That being said, I think Nerlens Noel and Derrick Rose are sadly key players on this team, and the team will probably play a good deal better when/if those two are back. That doesn’t mean that I think them playing would make the offseason choices make sense, but I think the team would certainly be better than two games under .500.

    85. E, all merc’d out: The only explanation is that he wants to and Thibodeau doesn’t want to fight him on it. That dynamic is nauseating and I’m just completely done with it. Progress is impossible until it changes.

      I really disagree with this, at least the first part. It’s clear this is a coaching decision. The players get the ball to Randle so he can bring it up court. Remember that stretch where he scampered into the front court like a beaten puppy? Clearly he was told to initiative the half-court offense faster. These days it seems he’s being told not to worry about his offense, get his teammates involved first. I think he’s really trying to do what he’s told.

      I’m not defending Randle. He’s totally failing. But the scheme is on Thibs.

      I do agree with ‘Progress is impossible until it changes.’

    86. 2. You look at the market and make opportunistic deals when they are available.

      Have you communicated this to Leon Rose yet? I doubt he’s aware of this novel bit of wisdom.

    87. No one, I mean no one, thought the end of season run was “obviously flukish.” (if I remember correctly, you were mysteriously silent during that stretch).

      Not true. Certainly while the run was happening no one said it. But the bubble burst in Atlanta (Game 3) and quite a few of us noted at that time that the foundation of our success was unlikely shooting percentages, whereas others insisted on attributing it coaching and culture (rarely a winning argument).

      I even predicted during the playoffs that if we’re not honest about what led to our success, we could see a repeat of what happened after the one good Melo season (that one was referred to as “another Mensa level take from the idiot Hubert,” and yet here we are.)

    88. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Uh… yeah. What’s the alternative? Making inopportune deals when they’re not available?

      The alternative is panicking like a child. trading everyone over 25 away for trash picks, going backwards, resetting the rebuild AGAIN, and praying that some day we’ll move up in the draft, a franchise talent will be there, we’ll select him, he’ll stay healthy, and we’ll keep drafting enough talent so that 4-5 years after that we’ll be good enough that other stars want to play on the team.

    89. Be serious, strat — the Knicks are a million miles away from the “pick up free pennies on the street” personnel phase. There’s a place for that, but not as the core personnel strategy for the Knicks.

    90. A deal like Cam Reddish is exactly what we should be looking for.

      Cam Reddish has mostly stunk in his college and professional career.

      He’s going to help the team now.

      He has a career .460 eFG%, and he has a -1.8 BPM this season, which is a career high.

      He has upside long term.

      So does every player his age.

      Most scouts, players, coaches and managements are still high on him.

      I’m glad you know what “most scouts” think, but Atlanta just dumped him for the crummy asset also known as The Incinerated Pick which would kind of make you think that maybe “most” players, coaches and management are not really all that high on him.

    91. This is what you do.

      1. You don’t panic like a child when things aren’t going well for a few games and blow things up prematurely or get too high when they are going better than expected and go all in on old player.

      You’re right, we shouldn’t panic over a few bad games. When they were struggling earlier in the year I advocated being patient and giving everyone a chance to regress positively.

      The situation is different now. No one has shown sustained improvement except Mitch. They played out the easiest part of their schedule and are in the 11th seed. Now they face a ton of games against good opponents. We will be favored in 7-9 of our final 36 games. Just to play .500 ball over the next 36 games will require significant improvement — all to finish in the 11th seed. Making the play-in would require great improvement, and making the Top 6 would require a miraculous turnaround.

      So it’s not about overreacting to the stinkers against the Hornets, Wolves, and Pelicans. It’s about looking at the totality of the evidence, looking at the challenges ahead of us, and making realistic assessments of what we can achieve. Most likely, after 82 games we are going to be a lot closer to the bottom of the East than the top.

    92. I feel like we all were aware at the end of last season that the Knicks shot really well from three and their opponents didn’t. We discussed those numbers a lot.

      The upside case was always RJ making a big leap and Randle proving his 2021 was the new him. It isn’t goink very well.

    93. Fournier is the only really bad signing, and he’s movable. At worst, $18M isn’t crippling.

      Randle’s extension is looking really bad, but nobody thought he’d be this bad. People thought he’d regress, but this is beyond regression.

      Our other contracts are perfectly fine and can likely be moved for assets. The situation isn’t dire. We’re a mediocre team with a bunch of mediocre assets.

    94. Hubert: Not true. Certainly while the run was happening no one said it. But the bubble burst in Atlanta (Game 3) and quite a few of us noted at that time that the foundation of our success was unlikely shooting percentages, whereas others insisted on attributing it coaching and culture (rarely a winning argument).

      You are right about this. I stand corrected.

    95. TheOakmanCometh: Knicks get: Westbrook, Nunn, Monk, 2026 and 2028 first round picks (deferred to 2027/2029 if New Orleans defers their 2024 choice)
      Lakers get: Randle, Rose, Burks

      I don’t see the Lakers doing this. Definitely not with two 1sts. Nunn is supposed to come back at some point still. He should be productive for them. Monk has been pretty productive, Im not sure Burks is meaningfully better. Randle isn’t good enough to warrant two 1sts right now.

      The Lakers are in win-now mode. LeBron’s window is closing fast, and he’s basically shadow-GM there. Vogel just got permission to bench Westbrook in the 4th quarter, so that experiment is moving backwards. Just getting rid of him would help them, but they can’t because he makes $45m and will hijack any team he goes to. They would have to give up 1-2 picks just to dump him for nothing.

      In this deal they not only get rid of him, but get three guys that can actually help them win a title this season. Randle, Rose, and Burks might all start for them, and all are under contract for another year. That gives them a 2-year window with LeBron. Monk and Nunn are both free agents. Monk has been good on offense but bad on defense, while Nunn hasn’t played.

      The Lakers don’t need young flyers. They need solid, dependable vets who complement LeBron and AD and won’t get killed on either end. This upgrade is definitely worth the price of 2 distant first-round picks.

    96. resetting the rebuild AGAIN

      I literally cannot name two consecutive seasons in which we accepted we were going to lose a lot of games in the name of asset collection, draft positioning, and player development.

      The next time we rebuild will be the first time.

    97. thenoblefacehumper: Have you communicated this to Leon Rose yet? I doubt he’s aware of this novel bit of wisdom.

      He’s very aware of it, but some here don’t seem to be or don’t understand what it means on a consistent basis.

      Some here would rather have some 19 year old that management and Thibs didn’t want sitting on the bench instead of ultimately converting that trash pick into Cam Reddish who they did want and who fits logically short and long term.

      Some here seem ready to blow it all up again and reset it back to close to zero.

      Rebuilding take years no matter how you do it.

      We know what we need. We have excess picks, decent flexibility, and no disastrous contracts. Just relax. It’s not the end of the world if we have a disappointing season because Randle took an even bigger step back than we feared he might, we had a few key injuries, and the east got a lot better. Get back in the gym, get better, and keep moving forward with the next deal. Here’s an idea. Zion has a giant red bullseye on his back. Make a couple more sensible moves and give him a reason to want to get in shape and play in NY.

    98. They have one “excess pick,” and it’s top-10 protected. Most likely it will fall at or below the range of the incinerated pick. That really, truly isn’t a big deal.

      ZIon and Simmons are the moves. Both have risks, but the current course is heading nowhere. One is clearly available; the other likely will be. I don’t think either gives a single fuck whether the NYK was coming off a 38 win season or a 30 win season.

    99. This past free agency was obviously meh, but I think we did ok in the draft, even with the pick incinerating. Grimes and McBride both project as good rotation guys (and possibly starters) plus Jokubaitis is proving to have a ton of potential.

      The Cam trade was obviously some stupid “relationships” trade that they hope will benefit them down the line, but we still have all our picks and the Dallas pick.

      They badly need a real drive-and-dish PG (Rose but younger and healthy) to get the offense working properly, it’s so obvious. I’d even take Reggie Jackson at this point. If they can get that, I’m fine (I guess) just letting those vets run around for 1.5 years while the kids learn and mature.

      What’s an extra 1.5 years to a Knicks fan?

    100. No one, I mean no one, thought the end of season run was “obviously flukish.”

      It doesn’t change this season disaster, but this isn’t true,
      some of us wrote about our “luck” last year, especially during the 16-4 run when we faced, and sometimes barely beat, a few depleted teams (i.e. Boston starting five in game 72: Pritchard, Langdford, Ojeleye, G.Williams, Kornet).

      But the answers were always the same: “look at the record”, “we’re winning so WTF”, “we’re not luckier than others” and so on. Just like this year.

      Last year nearly everything went right, this year everything is going bad, maybe it’s karma…

      Still I had expectations for this year (my prediction was for 47 wins) and I was wrong, so now I’m very disappointed :-)

    101. thenoblefacehumper: I literally cannot name two consecutive seasons in which we accepted we were going to lose a lot of games in the name of asset collection, draft positioning, and player development.

      The next time we rebuild will be the first time.

      It’s hard to discuss things with people that won’t be happy unless they get their way exactly.

      Rebuilding from scratch does not have to be a 76ers style multi year total bust or nothing rebuild that takes 5-10 years (if you are lucky) .

      We had two top 5 picks in the last few years. One of those players is 26, still improving, has a WS/48 of .191 and a BPM of 4.2. We got trash for him in a trade. The other started shaving last year so some people are ready to move on from him too because he’s not a franchise player and is already well past puberty.

      And you want to go back and do this again?

      lmao

      Even the smartest Knicks fans out there (which to a large extent are people like us) have the patience of flea. No matter what we do, it’s going to take years. Give Rose another couple of years to find a starting PG and #1 option.

    102. I mean, the Hawks were trash the first half of last season, fired their coach, went on a great run in the second half and won 2 playoff series last year. Now they’re trash again. These are weird times. Was their success last season a fluke or was the suckiness before and after the fluke? Should they trade Trae Young and look to start over?

      I don’t bring that up to be snarky either. I think we can posit to know what the right path is but so much is determined by luck, injuries and team chemistry. And with the east being so jammed up after the top 3 spots, it’s hard to bash GM’s who think they can make a move or two and break away from the pack.

      At any moment any number of young NBA players could put in an insane amount of work one off season and come back on some next level shit. Or they can put in a ton of work and only improve a little bit.

      I’m not trying to say there weren’t better moves for us to make or maybe we should have not taken so much stock in the second half of last season. Obviously that could have been the takeaway. But also, it wasn’t that unreasonable to think 26 year old Randle had figured it out. That RJ was on the upswing. That the team just needed tweaking to continue to improve.

    103. They still got way less than market value for Porzingis, strat is quite right about that one. He was a top 20 to 25 asset at the time. They don’t have anything close to that from an asset perspective now. It really hurt, and then they panicked and signed a bunch of dreck with the money their targets didn’t want. Since one of them was Julius Randle, it can fairly be said that they’re stilll working themselves out from under that bad misstep.

      That was a textbook example of strat’s panicking like children. I don’t think this is.

    104. They still got way less than market value for Porzingis, strat is quite right about that one. He was a top 20 to 25 asset at the time.

      God, we’re really relitigating this one. He tore his ACL and was demanding a max extension in his injured contract year. That’s a top-20 asset? Huh?

    105. I don’t get the Porzingis argument. He had shown flashes here and there but he is a 7’3 guy who had just blown out his ACL. And he was on an expiring contract looking for the max.

    106. It took Mark Cuban five seconds to pay him and the consensus around the league given his age and potential and previous work that he was in around the 20-25 place in asset value. There are stories showing this, but I’m not going to bother digging them up again. People here just have a thing for the guy, and that’s cool — but that thing isn’t close to the wider consensus.

      They didn’t get full value for him. No need to relitigate that part of it. What we do know and what’s more important for current purposes is that they rolled the money they “saved” from dumping him into pure dreck and they’re still saddled with it. He essentially begat Julius Randle. Enough said.

    107. I don’t have time to wait until 2026 and 2028. Please come up with a better plan.

    108. Rebuilding from scratch does not have to be a 76ers style multi year total bust or nothing rebuild that takes 5-10 years (if you are lucky) .

      We haven’t done it for two consecutive seasons. You cannot say you did anything resembling a “rebuild” if that’s the case. We have never, ever rebuilt.

      I understand you’re in favor of trying to get cute and shorten the amount of time it takes to build a sustainably good team (which is not 5-10 god damn years jesus christ, just look at the Sixers, Grizzlies, etc.), and in theory that’s all well and good, but in practice it tends to look exactly like what we’re seeing: we don’t have nearly the asset chest of the rebuilding teams, and we’re not nearly as good as the contenders.

      So congratulations to us for never having two consecutive seasons in which we had any goal other than winning as many games as possible. This 22-24 capped out team is our reward.

      I don’t want to re-litigate Porzingis, but I’d love to hear the case that having that guy signed to a max contract instead of Grimes and a future first would make this situation better.

    109. It took Mark Cuban five seconds to pay him and the consensus around the league given his age and potential and previous work that he was in around the 20-25 place in asset value. There are stories showing this, but I’m not going to bother digging them up again.

      And here’s a story positing Cuban’s decision, allegedly made in five seconds, was very stupid.

      Maybe Porzingis’ play this season has altered this a bit, but not much. He’s played in 30/46 games and has a TS+ of 102 from the center position. For the second consecutive season the Mavs’ defense is better when he’s sitting.

      The best thing you can say for him is that when he’s healthy, which is not all that often, his contract approaches fair market value, which is not the standard a team in the position of the 2019-2020 Knicks should’ve been aspiring to.

    110. The biggest decision they have to make is whether to build around Randle or shop him. Everything else is ancillary. Fournier, Rose, Kemba, and all the other vets can be traded or have their minutes reduced until their contracts expire.

      Leon needs to make a call on Randle and execute it soon.

    111. E, all merc’d out: It took Mark Cuban five seconds to pay him

      Yeah, I’d be pushing the chips in if I had Vlade tossing me a generational talent at #3. Not every team is in that position.

    112. I don’t have time to wait until 2026 and 2028. Please come up with a better plan.

      I’ve got the time to wait. So you come up with a better plan.

    113. The Cavs picked 8th, 5th, 5th and 3rd in the last four drafts. Sexton is a bust with some trade value, and the rest of them (Garland, Mobley and the unproductive but on-the-rise Okoro) look like core players for a solid 5-8 year playoff window. Who here would not trade our roster for the Cavs’ right now?

    114. Strat’s always defaulting to “The Process”, but we’re not going to turn into the Sam Hinkie Sixers if we trade Julius Randle and Evan Fournier for some future picks. It would be an intelligent pivot to recover from two moves that didn’t work out.

    115. I don’t want to re-litigate Porzingis, but I’d love to hear the case that having that guy signed to a max contract instead of Grimes and a future first would make this situation better.

      I don’t want to be litigious, but Porzingis is simply a higher-end asset than Grimes, even now. It’s not really even close. If people can’t see that kind of right away, they’re never going to be litigated out of it.

      But let’s stick with Grimes himself. Nice stroke, unathletic, ultimately probably a poor man’s Mikal at best. In any event, not a high end asset piece. Nothing against him, let’s all root for him, maybe he’ll surprise — but he’s not in that bucket and never will be. The Knicks have one guy in that bucket right now, and that’s RJ and even that’s kind of wobbly. They need to replenish that bucket, in fact that’s really the only imperative. Everything else is noise.

      The Dallas pick is top-10 protected and we all now is probably going to be right in the range of the incinerated pick. That’s also not really a high-end asset. Don’t want to just be a downer or the turd in the punch bowl, but that’s the cold, hard reality.

      This is a very tough league to build a contender in. Extremely tough.

    116. We are currently 11th in the draft lottery odds. If we do nothing, we’re going to end up 9th or 10th based on our difficult schedule. If we lean into the tank, we could get up to 7th. I don’t see us going much lower than that, given that the bottom 4 are already tanking (Orlando, Houston, Detroit, OKC) and several of the other will be packing it in soon (Sac, Indy, Por).

      But 7th is a reasonable slot. We’d have a 35% chance at a Top 4 pick and an 8% chance at Jabari Smith.

    117. Rose actually has a decent path in front of him: get what you can for Randle, Fournier, Rose, Burks, and Noel between now and next season. Then pivot to the young guys.

      1 Rokas, McBride
      2 Barrett, Quickley
      3 Reddish, Grimes
      4 Toppin
      5 Mitch, Sims

      Who here would not get behind that?

    118. thenoblefacehumper: And here’s a story positing Cuban’s decision, allegedly made in five seconds, was very stupid.

      Maybe Porzingis’ play this season has altered this a bit, but not much. He’s played in 30/46 games and has a TS+ of 102 from the center position. For the second consecutive season the Mavs’ defense is better when he’s sitting.

      The best thing you can say for him is that when he’s healthy, which is not all that often, his contract approaches fair market value, which is not the standard a team in the position of the 2019-2020 Knicks should’ve been aspiring to.

      There’s a disconnect. You keep talking about his contract and I’m talking about his asset value at the time the Knicks traded him. Two different things. They didn’t get fair return for his actual asset value when they traded him. HIs contract is irrelevant to that. If they didn’t want to pay him, great — that still doesn’t excuse selling him for pennies on the dollar. (And of course they didn’t trade him because they didn’t want to pay him; they traded him because they’re weird and incompetent.)

    119. Hubert:
      Rose actually has a decent path in front of him.

      It’s not panic to admit we should not have gone all in with this team and sell off the vets between now and next season. Get what you can for Randle, Fournier, Rose, Burks, and Noel. Then pivot to the young guys.

      1 Rokas, McBride
      2 Barrett, Quickley
      3 Reddish, Grimes
      4 Toppin
      5 Mitch, Sims

      plus our lottery pick

      Who here would not get behind that?

      This is what would be known as the “common sense” approach, so yes, I would be very much down with that.

      Some of the “assets” we’re trying to trade though (Randle and Fournier, I’m looking in your direction) could best be described as “toxic” unfortunately.

    120. What are the chances that Leon doubles down on this core and goes after Jerami wasting young players (Obi? Quick?) and picks in the process? Or some other deal for a similar player?

    121. You keep talking about his contract and I’m talking about his asset value at the time the Knicks traded him. Two different things.

      No, they are not different things. They are very much related to one another. He didn’t have nearly the value as an asset you pretend he did, because everyone on Earth knew he was getting that contract within a few months.

    122. If Rose wasn’t hurt and didn’t have a history of taking forever from coming back from injuries, he’d fetch a 1. Burks, maybe you can get a low 1. 60-40.

      I honestly have no idea what Randle and Fournier’s value are on the marketplace right now. There’s very little intelligence out there from the trusted association sources. I need more feedback than just my own thoughts on it; they’re both the kind of guys who have, IMO, wide reputation possibilities.

    123. thenoblefacehumper: No, they are not different things. They are very much related to one another. He didn’t have nearly the value as an asset you pretend he did, because everyone on Earth knew he was getting that contract within a few months.

      They aren’t the same thing. The people who actually hand out contracts don’t think of them in the fussy terms many Knickerbloggers do. With that, I’m moving on.

    124. Some of the “assets” we’re trying to trade though (Randle and Fournier, I’m looking in your direction) could best be described as “toxic” unfortunately.

      This is why if there was a deal on the table to unload these guys, and Randle in particular, in asset-neutral fashion, I wouldn’t try to get cute and hope that they rehabilitate their value. I would just wash our hands of the contracts.

      I actually think Fournier still might have a small amount of value, but if trading him and Randle together meant we didn’t have to attach any sweetener, au revoir.

    125. cybersoze:
      What are the chances that Leon doubles down on this core and goes after Jerami wasting young players (Obi? Quick?) and picks in the process? Or some other deal for a similar player?

      High, unfortunately.

    126. The people who actually hand out contracts don’t think of them in the fussy terms many Knickerbloggers so.

      Actually I think NBA front offices put some thought into the contracts they sign

    127. What are the chances that Leon doubles down on this core and goes after Jerami wasting young players (Obi? Quick?) and picks in the process? Or some other deal for a similar player?

      We really don’t know. This is his first crisis. Maybe he does something smart. We’ll see.

    128. They do, but they don’t worry about “overpaying” a high-end, finite asset by a few mil a year. Why? Because they’re finite assets.

      Repeating, the marketplace for NBA talent is not the marketplace for yachts or Porsches. The money you save on a 911 can be rolled into any kind of Porsche or Ferrari you want. Go shopping with the money you save on Kristaps Porzingis and you’re left choosing between Julius Randle and Elfrid Payton and Marcus Morris and, if you’re really stupid, you say, “OK, just give me one of each.”

    129. TheOakmanCometh: But 7th is a reasonable slot. We’d have a 35% chance at a Top 4 pick and an 8% chance at Jabari Smith.

      If we are going to execute the tank this season, let’s do it properly. Step one is to find the particular player we really really want to draft. This probably means he would be in the top 3 choices, and we have to hope this draft produces a bit of uncertainty as to the order of picks at the very top end. Step 2 is to tank like crazy to maximise our odds of getting the spot to take him. Step 3 is to put together a list of assets where we can trade up (ala Doncic) to the necessary spot if need be. Draft picks seem to be a better currency for this than players (more of a hunch, not much else). Step 4 is to hope for a bit of luck.

    130. We’re not going to tank. Our coach is Tom Thibodeau. We’re going to be chasing every win humanly possible.

    131. In addition to the Lakers, I can see Portland being interested in Randle. And there’s a dark horse that makes a surprising amount of sense: the Clippers. Randle for Eric Bledsoe and (lol) Keon Johnson works under the cap.

    132. Another thing to keep in mind: Randle is a lot easier to trade this year because he only counts as $21mm. His extension kicks in next year, at which point you need to find $29mm to match.

    133. Go shopping with the money you save on Kristaps Porzingis and you’re left choosing between Julius Randle and Elfrid Payton and Marcus Morris and, if you’re really stupid, you say, “OK, just give me one of each.”

      And where would this team be with Porzingis instead of Randle? We’d have an injury prone, overpaid 26 year-old guy who’s probably better than our durable, overpaid 27 year-old guy but not by nearly enough to materially change our position. We’d be complaining just as much, the complaints would just be different. This team is not one Kristaps Porzingis away from anything interesting, because Kristaps Porzingis contributes less to interestingness than we initially were hoping he would.

      In addition to the Lakers, I can see Portland being interested in Randle. And there’s a dark horse that makes a surprising amount of sense: the Clippers. Randle for Eric Bledsoe and (lol) Keon Johnson works under the cap.

      I think Portland is finally coming to terms with the fact that it’s time to go in the opposite direction. The Clippers idea isn’t half-bad, but I think any team with a “Randle’s salary + asset” package thinks they can do better with it than Randle, and they are probably right.

    134. thenoblefacehumper: And where would this team be with Porzingis instead of Randle?

      They’d have a better player, and more valuable asset, on a better contract. Where they’d ultimately be is path-dependent and we’d have to counterfactual our way forward from January 2019. They’d have likely still drafted RJ Barrett in the summer of 2019. I’d take my chances with a young kinda core of Porzingis and Barrett from there. That’s clearly better than what actually happened and there’s no serious sense in which KP’s contract would have crowded out anything sensible going forward.

    135. I think Thibs has lost this locker room. They’re not listening or not hearing and they have no identity.

      At the end of the day, great teams and great organizations are a combination of talent and culture. There is talent here. It’s currently being overwhelmed by a complete lack of confidence (witness everyone missing FTs).

      But there is no identity, either. Thibs had them embracing a hard-nosed, defense-first identity last year and it gave them the confidence to lock down and fight their way back in so many games. This year they don’t know who they are (and neither do we). It’s why there’s no consistency and you never know what team will show up. And it’s why we absolutely SUCK at developing talent. And it shouldn’t be this hard. This is the NYC Knicks for christsake!!! It’s about grit and grind, pride in representing the greatest city in the fucking world! But Thibs seems unable to bring it out in this group this year.

      And that lack of identity isn’t all on the coach either. It’s a matter of the wider organizational culture. The Knicks have had a perennially dysfunctional organizational culture since Dave Checketts left. And Dolan’s MSG’s wider culture is a legendary mess. It’s a curse that derailed even Phil Jackson. And no amount of superstar talent or Xs & Os can overcome a shitty culture and lack of identity. It won’t end until ownership changes.

      This is the lowest and most heartbroken I’ve been as a Knick fan since I watched Starks chuck one futile 3P after another in our Finals loss to the Rockets.

    136. This is seemingly a WS/48 friendly group of dudes and right now Kristaps Porzingis is 20th in the association in that category. That really doesn’t seem … all that bad?

    137. Kristaps has 2 seasons to go for 70 million and he hasn’t played 70 games in an NBA season since 2015. Giving Randle a dumb extension after a career year has nothing to do with Kristaps.

    138. E, all merc’d out: This is seemingly a WS/48 friendly group of dudes and right now Kristaps Porzingis is 20th in the association in that category. That really doesn’t seem … all that bad?

      WS48 is pretty bad, we’re past that one. Pointing to KP’s very first year of actually earning his max contract (third year of that one) as evidence of the non-wisdom of the trade? Uh…

    139. Porzingis is having the best season of his career by a wide margin. It is in some ways similar to Julius Randle’s season last year– around 4 BPM, made up of roughly 3 OBPM and 1 DBPM.

      Even if you’re not really into the AIO metrics, it’s not too hard to figure out that this is Porzingis’ best season so far. At this level of production, he’s a good player. He has also already missed 1/3 of the season and has not had a great track record of staying on the floor so let’s see how long this lasts. KP has a way of looking great for stretches at a time then disappearing.

    140. Just for fun, Marc Stein’s newsletter is devoted to a possibile Westbrook trade. Some snippets:

      “…The answer generally remains a pretty vociferous no…

      … However I have been advised that I should amend my previous characterization of the Lakers’ finding a Westbrook trade from outright impossible to extremely unlikely. There is at least one team out there that would take him,..

      … the Houston Rockets…

      … Sources say that the Lakers could convince Houston to take Westbrook back for Wall if they attached their 2027 first-round draft pick to the deal…

      … Reason being: That 2027 first is clearly the most valuable trade asset that the Lakers currently possess…

      … The Lakers have tried, with no luck yet, to package that pick with Talen Horton-Tucker and Kendrick Nunn in an attempt to acquire Jerami Grant from Detroit…”

    141. This is what would be known as the “common sense” approach, so yes, I would be very much down with that.

      Some of the “assets” we’re trying to trade though (Randle and Fournier, I’m looking in your direction) could best be described as “toxic” unfortunately.

      Randle and Fournier are the only guys under contract after next year and we’re not winning a title next year. We have the assets to get someone to eat a year of Fournier if we need to down the road. Randle is the only problem, which is why I’d do the hypothetical Russ deal. This is probably Randle’s nadir in terms of production. Last year was probably his peak but he should not be this bad either. Normally I wouldn’t want to trade a guy when he was bottoming out but Randle’s deal was bad from start and if we can get rid of it that’s in our long term interest.

    142. E, all merc’d out:
      He essentially begat Julius Randle.Enough said.

      Randle’s VORP since coming to the Knicks: 5.8 and KP’s since signing with Dallas 4.6. Unless Randle gets his head out of his ass KP will pass him next year but KP hasn’t exactly been a great return on Cuban’s investment.

    143. Randle and Fournier are the only guys under contract after next year and we’re not winning a title next year.

      Yeah, this is true. I just don’t know how many of that other group of guys (Rose, Burks, Noel, Kemba) could be moved for anything of value. And then there’s the problem that our current coach has a fetish for playing those veterans heavy minutes while keeping the young guys on the bench.

      I have never had a very strong opinion about Tom Thibodeau, but it does seem clear that he is not really the right coach for this group of players. Gonna be hard to pivot to a youth movement while he’s in charge of who gets playing time.

    144. Even if you’re not really into the AIO metrics, it’s not too hard to figure out that this is Porzingis’ best season so far. At this level of production, he’s a good player. He has also already missed 1/3 of the season and has not had a great track record of staying on the floor so let’s see how long this lasts. KP has a way of looking great for stretches at a time then disappearing.

      Yeah, like I said KP this year is playing up to his contract when healthy. The 2019-2020 Knicks were in no position to sign a guy to a max contract who, at best, was productive enough to render the contract fair on the relatively rare occasions in which he was healthy.

      Despite E’s source-free contention that there were tons of teams lining up to trade much, much more than two firsts + a flyer in DSJ for a guy with a torn ACL who had never put it all together and was months away from signing a max contract, there’s no reason to think that’s the case.

      If we had him instead of Randle we would just have a different set of dilemmas.

    145. It wasn’t source free and it’s a strange argument to be ripping on a player who the Knicks traded for pennies who’s currently living up to a max contract less than halfway through it when the first year was a return from an ACL year.

    146. Hubert:
      In addition to the Lakers, I can see Portland being interested in Randle. And there’s a dark horse that makes a surprising amount of sense: the Clippers. Randle for Eric Bledsoe and (lol) Keon Johnson works under the cap.

      Keon Johnson??

      Done!
      :-)

    147. E, all merc’d out: It wasn’t source free and it’s a strange argument to be ripping on a player who the Knicks traded for pennies who’s currently living up to a max contract less than halfway through it when the first year was a return from an ACL year.

      [hits on 18, gets dealt a 3, tells everyone it was a smart play]

    148. There’s supposedly some offer on the table from Detroit for Simmons of Grant, Bey, Olynyk and an unprotected first. And some dumbass on NBA radio actually said Morey should turn it down because he’s not getting back an All Star.

    149. Grant and Bey are both fairly duplicative of Tobias Harris, and thus don’t really provide what the Sixers need. Asset-wise, though, it’s not a bad package at all.

    150. The Sixers really should be able to do better than Grant as the best player for Simmons.

    151. d-mar: There’s supposedly some offer on the table from Detroit for Simmons of Grant, Bey, Olynyk and an unprotected first. And some dumbass on NBA radio actually said Morey should turn it down because he’s not getting back an All Star.

      Unless it’s this year’s unprotected first, that looks like a shit trade for the Sixers.

    152. Doing last minute prep for the Chris Herring panel (which, again, is tonight at 7, and is free for anybody to watch). Anything y’all would want me to ask Chris (or Mero, for that matter) about the 90s Knicks?

      Does he have the Hot Rod Williams/Patrick Ewing story in the book?

    153. Brian, what happened with your blockquote? Delete that, baby!

      Weird. Thanks for the head’s up. No idea why that happened. Sorry, Alan! Deleted. By the way, Alan, I DMed you the Ewing story.

    154. The biggest decision they have to make is whether to build around Randle or shop him.

      and what a crazy swing in on court performance/behavior we’ve seen over the last two and half years…

      RJ’s performance swings like crazy, but at least his temperament stays pretty steady…actually, for the most part – the same could be said for almost all the players on the roster…

    155. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Unless it’s this year’s unprotected first, that looks like a shit trade for the Sixers.

      Supposedly it’s this years pick, so I don’t see how that’s a shit deal?

      Good luck to Morey getting that All Star he’s demanding.

    156. Perhaps we should try to get a non injured PG to play in this team before evaluating what to do… Satoransky is barely playing in NO (does anyone know why?), and should be very cheap. Even if he does not move the needle much in terms of wins, we would see each player more on their natural role. Some of the “mental issues” might be about asking players to fill in on certain roles over their actual abilities.

    157. d-mar: Supposedly it’s this years pick, so I don’t see how that’s a shit deal?
      Good luck to Morey getting that All Star he’s demanding.

      The thing is, Simmons just doesn’t want to play for the Sixers. There’s no sign that he refuses to be traded to most teams, right? So it’s not like he’s going to show up at his new home and stop playing hard.

    158. Alan:
      Doing last minute prep for the Chris Herring panel (which, again, is tonight at 7, and is free for anybody to watch). Anything y’all would want me to ask Chris (or Mero, for that matter) about the 90s Knicks?

      I haven’t had a chance to pick up the book yet (I’m getting it this weekend) so I don’t know if this is in there but I’m curious about how the team felt about the Starks/Sprewell and Oakley/Camby trades. Personally, I was in high school at the time and while I knew logically that they were good trades they also broke my heart.

    159. They’d have a better player, and more valuable asset, on a better contract.

      …and they wouldn’t have Grimes, the pick we got for moving from 21 to 25, and the 2023 pick, which is value Dallas still probably couldn’t approximate if they tried to trade Porzingis right now.

    160. Nice to see how happy Chris is with his book’s reception-best beat writer we’ve had in a long time. I need to pickup that book soon.

    161. Super fun, and Alan is a master moderator. :) The Riley bits might help understand Thibs, he wasn’t on the Riley lead Knicks teams, but he’s from that era.

    162. I think i saw a reaction from Alan, when someone asks this in the chat – “Feelings on the current knicks line up?”. Alan’s face was like “this is supposed to be fun, come on people”. :D

    163. Alan, Get Kid Mero’s mic and give it to MSG for Wally

      edit- awesome job, Alan. You even asked the Riley source question that I posted.

    164. Bo Nateman: Alan, Get Kid Mero’s mic and give it to MSG for Wally

      LOL. Yeah, they must switch mic, Wally would be wonderful this way, and we want to hear Mero.

    165. Thanks, guys! That was so much fun. I just feel bad Mero was having so many audio issues. For the most part, I could hear him just fine, except near the very end when I mentioned it myself.

      And god bless Herring for actually asking about the Biggie song.

    166. What a nice chat. Thanx Alan, that helped erase yesterday’s awful game with the good memories from the 90s.

    167. Unfortunately had an obligation during the chat, is there a replay link anywhere? No worries if not.

    168. ‘no Eastern team is currently on pace for more than 53 wins, which would tie for the lowest total for a conference winner in a full season since 2002-03.’

      Makes that fever dream of 56 wins especially bitter-tasting…

    169. Thanks guys! Can’t wait to listen, what a dream team of Knicks fans/former beat writers. All due respect to everyone currently covering the team, and there are plenty of good writers doing so, but Chris remains the GOAT. I’ve been devouring the book and it’s just as good as everyone says.

      The more I think about it, the more the Lakers and Knicks are a match made in trade heaven this season. I’m pretty sure Westbrook, THT, Nunn, their 2027 first, and swap rights on their 2026 and 2028 firsts for Randle, Rose, Burks, and Fournier works.

      I said earlier the Lakers probably want more than Randle for their Westbrook + assets bullet since it’s their last one, but I don’t see anything else out there before the deadline.

      They could wait until the offseason, but my god for all of the (true) talk about how it’d be a travesty to waste a prime Embiid year, how about wasting a year from a 37 year-old LeBron somehow having a season indistinguishable from 27 year-old LeBron? That would be a crime.

      Randle, Rose, Burks, and Fournier would legitimately make them a lot better provided that Randle did not try to hijack a team with LeBron James and Anthony Davis (he seems fairly stubborn but you have to think the chance to win a god damn championship would mean something to him). He could be New Orleans Randle when sharing the court with LeBron, and maybe try his hand at 2020-2021 Randle when LeBron is sitting. The other 3 fit with the Lakers pretty seamlessly.

      We’d waive Westbrook, Nunn to soak up some of the PG minutes this season, and would get a look at THT (I’m not a big fan but who knows). We could start Nunn-Grimes-Barrett-Obi-Mitch with Kemba (until we figure something out with him, and then Deuce), IQ, Reddish, THT, Noel, Samanic, Sims, and uh Archie I guess off the bench.

      It’s not gonna happen and I should’ve done something else with the 5 minutes it took me to write this post, but it should.

    170. Jay King
      @ByJayKing
      “Jayson Tatum has now missed 17 straight 3-pointers dating back to the first quarter of the Bulls game.”

      This guy’s picture should be next to the dictionary definition of “streaky”

    171. d-mar:
      Jay King
      @ByJayKing
      “Jayson Tatum has now missed 17 straight 3-pointers dating back to the first quarter of the Bulls game.”

      This guy’s picture should be next to the dictionary definition of “streaky”

      So obviously they should trade him for Westbrook.

      To be real, no one should want Westbrook, but maybe Boston could trade for Simmons.

    172. I love me some Jimmy B, and it pains me to say it, even with him on the Heat, but he done fucked that game up. (I wish he’d hit that 3 to make up for the missed layup, but even still, why’s he shooting the 3 there at all?)

    173. Interesting that Knox is getting rotation minutes.

      They’re down Bogo and Gallo at the moment, so there’s a brief opportunity for Knox to get some burn.

    174. Morant is insaner.

      (I know that those of you that secretly like to watch good basketball on the side are already watching, but I highly recommend Griz v Nugs right now)

    175. Donnie Walsh:
      Morant is insaner.

      It’s good to know that when Steph retires we’ll still have Ja to continue the refrain of “missed it by one damn pick”

    176. First buzzer beater in Steph Curry’s career, on today’s edition of statistics that seem fake when you read then.

    177. I also think buzzer beaters are just fairly rare. I mean, if you hit a go-ahead shot with 3 seconds left or 0.2 second left, that’s not considered a buzzer beater, ya know?

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