Knicks Morning News (2022.01.17)

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    [www.theringer.com] — Monday, January 17, 2022 1:34:27 AM

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    [www.sportsgamblingpodcast.com] — Sunday, January 16, 2022 11:35:45 PM

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  • Knicks 117, Hawks 108: the sound of silence – Posting and Toasting
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  • Another Kemba Walker decision looms for Tom Thibodeau and the Knicks – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Sunday, January 16, 2022 7:10:00 PM

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  • Westchester Knicks fall to 1-4 following 132-104 loss to Fort Wayne Mad Ants – Posting and Toasting
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  • Knicks Rumors: NY ‘Might Not Be as Sold’ on Julius Randle; Encouraged Apology to Fans – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Sunday, January 16, 2022 9:47:39 AM

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    71 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.01.17)”

    1. I’m first?
      Maybe I can ask the question that my last post (buried under a pile of emotional post) really asked.

      Is there a sneaky good reason to dump a late 1st round pick? I look at the 1st round rookie pay scale and wonder if Leon Rose was getting rid of a pick that was going to block a free agent signing – both because of the pick and also because of the guaranteed pay scale that comes with it. Assuming a somewhere around the 20th pick, we’re looking at tying up close to $2M in contracts for up to 4 years.

      Thoughts? Was that dump part of the equation?

    2. By your logic a 90% chance at the Pistons first round pick isn’t a first round pick and having the Bucks first round pick instead is preferable.

      I see what you’re saying. But there is a 0% chance this could be the Pistons pick bc it was protected against being that good.

      I honestly don’t get all the fuss about this. We devalued the pick, and then we got decent value for the devalued pick. Let’s just move on.

      The bigger question is still how good is this front office. I continue to believe they are middling and their moves, while not bad, are uninspiring. I think they will be successful at keeping us in the middle of the pack.

    3. “GoNyGoNYGo
      January 17, 2022 at 9:22 am
      I’m first?
      Maybe I can ask the question that my last post (buried under a pile of emotional post) really asked.

      Is there a sneaky good reason to dump a late 1st round pick? I look at the 1st round rookie pay scale and wonder if Leon Rose was getting rid of a pick that was going to block a free agent signing – both because of the pick and also because of the guaranteed pay scale that comes with it. Assuming a somewhere around the 20th pick, we’re looking at tying up close to $2M in contracts for up to 4 years.

      Thoughts? Was that dump part of the equation?”

      Cam actually will take the roster spot of the 2022 Charlotte pick. He has a guaranteed salary of $5.9 million. So the Knicks will have $4 million more on the books for 2022-23 by trading the pick for Cam, assuming the pick would have been assigned.

    4. Hubert: I see what you’re saying. But there is a 0% chance this could be the Pistons pick bc it was protected against being that good.

      I honestly don’t get all the fuss about this. We devalued the pick, and then we got decent value for the devalued pick. Let’s just move on.

      The bigger question is still how good is this front office. I continue to believe they are middling and their moves, while not bad, are uninspiring. I think they will be successful at keeping us in the middle of the pack.

      See, if your takes were always this measured, there would be far less fuss. Again, EVERYBODY wanted Hali over Obi, MOST wanted Bane over IQ, EVERYBODY wanted to exercise the #19 pick and was disappointed at the trade-out, etc., etc.

      Where the fuss lies is in the continual bashing of FO and coaching decisions as not “middling” or “uninspired” but much worse than that, and the concluding that they will keep us in the middle of the pack, as you stated above. It’s about the degree and projections about the future based on that degree. My feeling is that you grossly inflate the negative and poo poo the positive due to a preconceived narrative about Rose and Thibs.

    5. The bigger question is still how good is this front office. I continue to believe they are middling and their moves, while not bad, are uninspiring. I think they will be successful at keeping us in the middle of the pack.

      When Leon Rose took over, he inherited a franchise that had had 7 straight losing seasons.

      Since he took over and hired Thibs, the record of the team is 62-51 with it’s first playoff appearance in 7 seasons.

      He has drafted multiple players in both drafts, none of which has looked like a really bad pick. While also adding future picks (mainly second rounders, yes). On the big boy squad we got RJ and Mitch starting and growing, Obi, IQ and Grimes on the bench…all gettting minutes and all showing progress to varying degrees. And we just added Cam and got Rokas overseas and McBride in the G-League (both of whom are doing well in those leagues).

      I don’t know. I think we’re doing pretty damn well overall considering where this franchise was for the last two decades. We also still have all of our first round picks, the dallas pick in 2023 and a mountain of second round picks. Also, Fournier and Randle might be bigger contracts but neither are in the albatross category and both of those guys could be part of a package for a star if it presents itself, especially if the team keeps winning and we make the playoffs again. Not too mention Rose, Burks and Noel (and Kemba if he’s still here) are all going to be potentially expiring contracts next year (or we can bring them back if we want cause we have player options on all of them).

      I mean, I guess since we aren’t a top 5 team and in championship conversation, we’re just middling. But I could not be happier as a fan right now with what Leon is doing. But I’m also a forest over the trees guy.

    6. Thoughts? Was that dump part of the equation?

      I don’t know how that influenced the choice but at the same time if they felt (or “knew”) they could wait the second round to get the player they want or did not think there was a “significantly better” player in the group, it can make some sense to avoid the guaranteed pay scale, second rounders are always paid less.

      At the same time, I remember they were doing some “cap space gymnastic”, sequencing their signing in a certain way to have the space/flexibility to do what they had in mind (see Fournier, Kemba and the other veterans).

      And now they did choose to exchange the “potential pick” for an higher salary lottery ticket, so…

      We’ll never know the real answer, we can only do assumptions on a lot of things that can have influenced the “peculiar choice”.

      Meanwhile two KBlogger parties will clash with no chance of a truce (no one ever change idea in religiuos war, see Frank, Thibs and so on…) while a third one, less involved, will probably skip some comments here and there and just hope Cam Reddish will become the player some scouts predicted.

    7. Cap space shouldn’t matter for the next several years as we’ll be over the cap. We aren’t yet near enough to the luxury tax to worry about that either.

      We have the $10M MLE to use, it would be difficult to clear more cap space than that without major moves.

    8. Addicted To The Knicks: Cam actually will take the roster spot of the 2022 Charlotte pick. He has a guaranteed salary of $5.9 million. So the Knicks will have $4 million more on the books for 2022-23 by trading the pick for Cam, assuming the pick would have been assigned.

      Right. And Knox was expiring.

    9. Macri tweeted (or better, retweeted) that the Pacers asking price for Turner will be 2 first rounders or 1 first rounder and a good young player.

    10. swiftandabundant: I think we’re doing pretty damn well overall considering where this franchise was for the last two decades.

      That really hits the nail on the head for me. Let’s do back-to-back playoff years and move past the 1st round.

    11. We really need to win today. Regardless of how the records turned out- I never expected Cleveland, Washington, Toronto, and Charlotte to be better than us this season. Every night I look at the schedule and say shit like “oh Cleveland should lose this game” or “Charlotte can’t beat Milwaukee”- and they keep proving me wrong. Garland is out in Cleveland DEALING. Kuzma is punching above his weight recently. And LaMelo keeps cementing his status as a- dare I say- top 3 guard in the East! This season is nuts! I haven’t even mentioned the season FVV is having. Sheesh!

    12. Last year, some people thought Thibs and Rose were saviors. And I get that. They certainly were a breath of fresh air.

      We’ve been trying to have healthy discourse about their moves, and a lot of times when we criticize them people get emotional for reasons that are unclear to me.

      No one thinks these guys are idiots. But we study statistics to optimize results. And I think they consistently deliver suboptimal results. Not shitty results… suboptimal results.

    13. It’s still hard to tell if we’ve actually turn things around, or just feasting on the soft underbelly of our schedule. But we definitely need to win this game today.

    14. Does RJ recent streak of good games and his new role as a co-initiator on offense made him the only Knicks untouchable in trades?

    15. Nobody on this team should be untouchable. We have a roster with lots of guys ranging from B- to B+ and no A’s. If we can flip one of them for an A, we should.

    16. Middling is a far cry from where we were just a year and a half ago, when Vegas predicted that we’d be the worst team in the league. Somehow the FO and coach totally bypassed a tank (for better or worse) and made the team relevant (if middling) in a methodical (if middling) and highly professional manner. They have a roster half-full of young likely rotation-level players (is anyone out on RJ, Mitch, Obi, IQ, Grimes, Rokas, Deuce, or Reddish as potential rotation players?) and surplus draft picks in upcoming years. Randle is locked up on a fair contract and seems to have settled in to who he needs to be in recent days. Fournier is playing to his contract lately.

      Would we be better with Hali (who the Spurs passed over) and Bane rather than IQ and Obi? Maybe, but by how much? Maybe those guys just reached their ceilings faster.

      Would we be better off with Jalen Johnson rather than Reddish and a future 2nd? Maybe, we’ll see. Seems like a wash to me.

      We extended Rose, Burks and Nerlens, and kept Taj around at the vet’s minimum. Are any of those moves short-sighted and dooming us to mediocrity? Most objective analysts would say no.

      Do we have more cap flexibility than most other “middling” teams going forward? Absolutely, that’s pretty much beyond dispute.

      I’m thotoughly enjoying watching this team even when they go through bad stretches and cautiously optimistic about the future. If guys like Hubert and E think we’re doomed to years and years in the middle of the pack because Rose and Thibs don’t know what they’re doing, that’s okay by me. I just don’t get it considering how far we’ve come in a short time without any panic moves.

    17. Alan:
      Nobody on this team should be untouchable. We have a roster with lots of guys ranging from B- to B+ and no A’s. If we can flip one of them for an A, we should.

      We don’t have an “A” player.
      Yet Randle was All-NBA 2nd team last year – an “A” grade. Yes, he hasn’t had a great start.
      Would you (theoretically) trade him straight up for Westbrook? Harden? How many players are ahead of him for this Knicks team, in your mind? I can list about 10 and none are available. He’s playing like a B and RJ is playing like B but both have A potential. They are both 2-way players that can create their own shots and can score at all 3 levels. BTW, Mitch is 9th in the league this season in WS48 .

    18. How many players are ahead of him for this Knicks team, in your mind? I can list about 10 and none are available.

      I have much more than 10 but probably they’re all not-available.

      :-)

    19. I’m more of a process guy and the process last few games has been very encouraging.

      Earlier in the season we would win games where we played terribly and the other team was just a little worse. Now we are playing well and winning comfortably. Also the starters are finally playing well which hasnt happened all season.

    20. Alan:
      It’s still hard to tell if we’ve actually turn things around, or just feasting on the soft underbelly of our schedule. But we definitely need to win this game today.

      Well, we crushed a mostly healthy Dallas team that had won 5 in a row, and although the Hawks are major underachievers, beating them in Atlanta was significant IMO

      But I agree this game is another key measuring stick, we need to pile up the home wins. The hellish schedule in February and March awaits…

    21. Z-man: Middling is a far cry from where we were just a year and a half ago, when Vegas predicted that we’d be the worst team in the league.

      Yes. There are two camps here. One is just so happy to be decent after so long. The other is frothing to be great. They’re both understandable positions. What I think is not all that sensible is the position that we’re decent and stuck there, after, um, around a year of being decent? After 20 years of suckitude? For transparency’s sake, I’m in the “so happy to be decent” camp, but I am also in the “decent is a step on the way from suck to great” camp, too.

      Not every decision will be perfectly optimal, not on this planet. We can definitely parse through the various decisions and determine which were really good and which could have been better. But we’re arguing about whether the front office is deserving of an A or a B. After FO’s consistently getting Ds and Fs, I’m pretty okay with what I’ve seen. Plus, as has been noted by others, we’re loaded for potential great. It’s been a year in the lovely purgatory of decent. Be patient…

    22. Hubert:
      Last year, some people thought Thibs and Rose were saviors. And I get that. They certainly were a breath of fresh air.

      We’ve been trying to have healthy discourse about their moves, and a lot of times when we criticize them people get emotional for reasons that are unclear to me.

      No one thinks these guys are idiots. But we study statistics to optimize results. And I think they consistently deliver suboptimal results. Not shitty results… suboptimal results.

      Again, there’s very little disagreement with what you say here. It’s all about the degree that the results are suboptimal. But now you are sugarcoating your relentless bashing of both Thibs and Rose and claiming that you are only trying to have a healthy discourse by offering measured criticism, and that it’s the Rose and Thibs worshippers that are mucking things up. Sorry, that’s not what has happened. In fact, nearly everyone, including me, criticized or at lease were unimpressed by moves made by both Rose and Thibs. It’s your characterization of folks here as worshipping at the alter that has derailed the healthy discourse.

      However, since we’ll never agree on who is more responsible for the acrimony, I’ll try to do my share to defend my positions without name-calling, condescending sarcasm, and such. Hopefully you and others will do the same.

    23. Would you (theoretically) trade him straight up for Westbrook? Harden?

      I would not trade him for Westbrook, but I would 1000000% trade him for the Beard. The Randle of last season is likely as good as he can possibly play, and we saw what the ceiling on that guy was — at least as the star of a team. And there are probably at least 20 guys I’d be willing to trade him for, despite liking Randle a lot.

    24. GoNyGoNYGo: Thoughts? Was that dump part of the equation?

      Now that you speak of it, it might have been. The math for the free-agency signings was so tight that it’s possible the money of the draft picks were on their minds while maneuvering the draft.
      The counter is that we could easily dumped Knox on some team, and used that money to roster a more promising player.
      So the debate makes sense, it’s just that the sides are so far away from each other that the debate will go on… forever! :D

    25. Max: Macri tweeted (or better, retweeted) that the Pacers asking price for Turner will be 2 first rounders or 1 first rounder and a good young player.

      This suits my plan, that would be Burks+Mitch to DAL for Brunson+Kleber, and after that Obi + 1RP + Kemba (filler) to IND for Turner. Thoughts?

    26. That really hits the nail on the head for me. Let’s do back-to-back playoff years and move past the 1st round.

      Yes, that should be the goal. Get into the playoffs and win a series. Narratives, however contrived, matter in sports (and in life). So even if we are not the 4th seed, if we win the first round series, it will be considered progress. And 2nd round is where you can start to take yourself seriously as moving towards contention. I think that is when stars and free agents start to go “hmm, I could take them to the next level.”

      But even if we make the playoffs and lose in the first round again, I won’t be too mad because we have so many young players and future picks in front of us and no real bad contracts. I don’t think we’re stuck in purgatory and honestly, purgatory is better than hell anyways.

    27. cybersoze: Now that you speak of it, it might have been. The math for the free-agency signings was so tight that it’s possible the money of the draft picks were on their minds while maneuvering the draft.
      The counter is that we could easily dumped Knox on some team, and used that money to roster a more promising player.
      So the debate makes sense, it’s just that the sides are so far away from each other that the debate will go on… forever! :D

      I would argue that being in the top 30 makes you an all-star (there are 15 players on each team, right?) only 15 make it to all-NBA. All-stars are an “A” in my book. I think that Randle, RJ and, to a lesser extent, Mitch, are core players to build around moving forward. All the rest, IMO are B level role players. I would package up a few for another all-star but you never know about chemistry – especially in NY. Why did Kemba suck to start the season? You need to be a special all-star to come here.

    28. Z-Man, I’m really not saying anything different today than I usually am. You’re just being more receptive and understanding than normal. Hopefully it’s bc you’re feeling refreshed after a three day weekend and a much deserved break from a challenging year at work.

      I have not relentlessly bashed Thibs and Rose. I have relentlessly argued against the idea that they’re good enough to take us to the top. I have always thought the same thing of them: they’re high floor, low ceiling guys. They’re both rigid. They both let opportunities slip bc they’re not prepared to adjust. They will likely be here a long time, bc they’re good enough to keep us out of the muck. But they will also likely leave us wanting more bc the whole plan seems to be “tread water until a superstar saves us.”

    29. GoNyGoNYGo: That really hits the nail on the head for me. Let’s do back-to-back playoff years and move past the 1st round.

      I was getting a little depressed with the way our season was unfolding, because at the beginning of the season i really thought we had a very good chance to be Top6. Now i’m happy again, and not only because we’re playing well and winning. Although we probably won’t be Top6 and avoid the play-in, now the top teams are not only MIL and BRK, but also CHI. I’m aiming at a 1st round against CHI. Thibs and our defense have a nice chance to upset them as the 1st seed. Can you remember when was the last time that the Knicks upset the 1st seed on the 1st round? I sure can. :)

    30. cybersoze: This suits my plan, that would be Burks+Mitch to DAL for Brunson+Kleber, and after that Obi + 1RP + Kemba (filler) to IND for Turner. Thoughts?

      I think the package can be enticing enough for Indy,
      not so much for Dallas, at least not without adding a 1st, they keep Brunson in high esteem.

    31. not so much for Dallas, at least not without adding a 1st, they keep Brunson in high esteem.

      So much of the Brunson narrative seems to be based on the Mavericks not caring that much about bringing Brunson back for some reason. They have his full Bird Rights. They want him back. They’re currently starting the guy next to Luka. It’s going to take a lot to pry him from Dallas. They do not plan on losing him. I have no idea where the “He’s very available” narrative has come from.

    32. They do not plan on losing him. I have no idea where the “He’s very available” narrative has come from.

      I agree, all the rumors are coming from outside.
      I know it’s fair to ask but Dallas looks entrenched in keeping him.

    33. Z-man: I’m thotoughly enjoying watching this team even when they go through bad stretches and cautiously optimistic about the future.

      Happy MLK day guys. It’s been 32 years since the Trent Tucker shot. That day the Knicks beat the Bulls, Patrick had a monster game, improved their home record to 17-1, had the best record in the East, and it was clear to most that the better of the two Jackson rookie coaches was in NYC. Unfortunately that was the high point of the regular season–they then lost 5 straight and finished 5th in the East. They made a very questionable PG trade at the deadline to try to fix things and NYC Jackson was out in less than a year.

      Let’s hope this MLK day game, unlike then, doesn’t end but continues the positives we’ve been seeing. I am more than cautiously optimistic.

    34. Alan: And there are probably at least 20 guys I’d be willing to trade him for, despite liking Randle a lot.

      It’s getting better, three weeks ago i think there was 100 guys i’d trade him for. :P

    35. Max: I know it’s fair to ask but Dallas looks entrenched in keeping him.

      That’s fair. But although he’s important to them, i think Burks might be better as SG than Brunson. At the very least he’s as good as Brunson. And then they get Mitch for Kleber, a clear upgrade of their frontcourt.

    36. And Brunson is 6’1, he shouldn’t be playing SG, they will pay for this in the playoffs. An undersized SG to pair with a star bad at defense is not the best plan, i should add.

    37. cybersoze:
      And Brunson is 6’1, he shouldn’t be playing SG, they will pay for this in the playoffs. An undersized SG to pair with a star bad at defense is not the best plan, i should add.

      Defensive assignment for Dallas are usually reversed, Brunson get the opponent’s PG and Luka (still bad on defense but 6’7) the opponent’s SG.
      He’s an undersized PG too, in the modern NBA he’s an undersized everything :-)

    38. Does Dallas have Brunson’s full Bird rights? I thought it was identical to the Mitch situation where there capped on how much they can pay him.

    39. But we’re arguing about whether the front office is deserving of an A or a B. After FO’s consistently getting Ds and Fs,

      I don’t think we are. The question is “can they get it done”, and I don’t think the answer is yes.

      Plus, as has been noted by others, we’re loaded for potential great.

      I don’t see potential great at all. I don’t even see a team that is likely to ever win a playoff series.

      You can talk the record that Mills and Perry had, but the fact is they left this team in really good shape for the next group to come in. And I think they’ve squandered the potential to be great in the pursuit of being average.

    40. Max: Defensive assignment for Dallas are usually reversed, Brunson get the opponent’s PG and Luka (still bad on defense but 6’7) the opponent’s SG.
      He’s an undersized PG too, in the modern NBA he’s an undersized everything :-)

      My point was that both players of their backcourt are limited defensively, although i think Brunson is an OK defender. But in the playoffs, there’ll be a time where you get to match with not one but two very good players on the other team, like CP3+Book or Steph+Klay. I think Burks would be an improvement in that department for them.
      If the Dallas deal isn’t available, then the trade for Turner has to include Noel instead of Kemba (Noel + Obi + 1RP for Turner). Or else we’d need to send Noel or Mitch somewhere else.

    41. One is just so happy to be decent after so long. The other is frothing to be great. They’re both understandable positions.

      To be clear, I don’t want us to just be decent. But I also think decent is usually a step you have to take before being great. It is rare for teams to go from bad to great without having to be decent for awhile. The problem is teams get stuck on decent but honestly, I would be fine to be stuck at decent. Miami is a good model for a franchise that rarely “tanks” and in their worst years are still decent but then will try to reload almost every off season to improve. They’re able to do this without giving away picks. They take risks on big contracts strategically (like Lowry this year) to put them in the convesation every few years.

      IMO, that strategy is better than bottoming out and loading up on picks. I mean, Philly did that and they are really no better off than The Heat, are they?

      I think free agents and stars will always consider Miami because of this. Sure, the beach helps but a star player knows if they go to the Heat, the team at worst will be “decent.” Knowing you won’t have to play for a team that loses every night even if you don’t always makes the playoffs or lose early, that’s a big selling point I think.

      If you keep your picks, acquire more picks where you can and don’t dole out completely ludicrous contracts to unproductive players, you give yourself room to operate. Mistakes are always made by every front office.

    42. cybersoze: I think they’re capped in the extension they can offer him, to avoid him hitting UFA. Once he’s a UFA they have his bird rights and can break the bank to pay him.

      Yes, that is my understanding. And to Alan’s question it is exactly like Mitch–he can become a UFA.

    43. Put it this way….

      If DRed were GM, we would have drafted Halliburton, Bane, and Tillman. We could have added those three to the RJ-Randle-Bullock-Mitch core that Mills left behind. And we could have taken the best player available at 19, 21, 32, and 34. Had we done that, I would be sitting here seeing the potential for something great.

      And let’s be real: that wasn’t a hard path to travel. That was the default! That was just “sit there and take the best player available” with the 7 (seven!) top 34 picks we had in two years (thanks to the previous regime).

      Instead we got obsessed with “Thibs guys”.

      Y’all are comparing these guys to the last guys, and I get it. But I’m grading these guys on what they have done with what they were given.

    44. Hubert, I don’t understand why you have concluded that Rose is a low ceiling guy. Even if their record thus far is middling, it’s still a pretty small sample and there haven’t been egregious blunders, just some suboptimal decisions mixed in with objectively excellent ones, and that’s true even for the better GMs. For example, most objective analysts give the Reddish trade high marks. I mean, who was available that you would rather be pulling the strings? It’s not like Ujiry was available and we whiffed.

      For an agent to become a GM, there’s a learning curve, so some patience is merited. He’s been on the job for a year and a half with no prior experience. And while you call his performance middling, I would argue that the “middle” of the GM continuum starts a couple of GMs below Ujiri. Being at that level as a rookie is pretty impressive as far as I’m concerned, and after 20 years of dogshit, not selling out by starfucking is a colossal step up. So why make assumptions about Leon’s ceiling based on his current record?

      As to Thibs, you bashed him for being woefully outcoached by Nate McMillan. You took victory laps while prematurely evoking the Skiles effect. You’ve been reluctant to credit him for any successes the team has experienced (except against the backdrop of the Skiles effect) including developing IQ, Obi, RJ, and Mitch, let alone Julius. You went all “see, I told you so” when he brought on DRose. You called him an old dog that couldn’t learn new tricks, even though we are now 8th in 3PAr. And on and on. And you have gratuitously labeled whoever has disagreed with you on these things a Thibs worshipper, further fanning the flames.

      I’m certainly to blame for some of the acrimony and am working on being less caustic (but not entirely humorless) with certain posters. Hopefully you can own your share of the blame and do the same.

    45. I think I like the Reddish trade less than I liked the incineration trade. Reddish is not a good player and I don’t really see where he has the path to being a good player. He has no secondary skills and his primary skill (scoring) is also lacking.

      A scratch-off at 19 would have been a better investment than 1.5 years of Cam Reddish followed by a possible ill-advised extension.

    46. Max:
      Does RJ recent streak of good games and his new role as a co-initiator on offense made him the only Knicks untouchable in trades?

      His new, shiny midrange J brings him closer to a solidly good player and you can see him reaching his 2-3 times all star ceiling. Giving the team’s place on the win curve is that untouchable? I’d say it is for anyone other than a top 20 star in his prime.

    47. I also think a mea culpa is highly warranted with IQ. I mean, the blog blew up people were so mad we took this kid bc of some kentucky connection and even when he surprised us a rookie, people stuck to their “bad process, good results” mantra. IQ has looked great for a 25th pick so far. His shooting has been down some but his PG skills are greatly improved. I mean, it is not out of the question that he is the PG of the future at some point in the next few seasons. Yet, very littel credit is given to Leon for this pick.

      People seem a little more able to give him credit for Grimes, which is nice. But the IQ pick was an absolute home run for where he was picked and people were furious we didn’t take him later (or took him at all).

    48. Hubert: If DRed were GM, we would have drafted Halliburton, Bane, and Tillman.

      Have you even noticed that Tillman has sucked this year? Or that he plays a position that is a) easy fillable and b) we have Julius and Obi at? I would way rather have a potentially good 2nd rounder in a future draft than Tillman.

      Hali vs. Obi was a no brainer, but highly Buford/Pops made the same mistake. Maybe they had concerns about whether he could stay healthy or be strong enough to play D given his slight frame, or whether his funky-looking shot would translate, or about his abysmal FTr. All legit concerns, no?

      And what does “Thibs guys” mean? Is No-D Obi a Thibs guy? Are IQ and Grimes players that other teams are glad they didn’t draft? Is McBride a bad pick at #36?

    49. JK47:
      I think I like the Reddish trade less than I liked the incineration trade. Reddish is not a good player and I don’t really see where he has the path to being a good player. He has no secondary skills and his primary skill (scoring) is also lacking.

      A scratch-off at 19 would have been a better investment than 1.5 years of Cam Reddish followed by a possible ill-advised extension.

      I tend to agree with this. I guess the thinking by Rose et al. is that maybe getting a chance to play with RJ will light a fire under Reddish to give a more consistent effort, especially on D. He seems to have the talent. A light might go on for him that he needs to play hard and smart to be in Thibs’ rotation.

      But, he might not be more than one of those guys with “million dollar talent but a ten cent brain.” This is a big second chance for him…hopefully he’ll realize that.

    50. Yeah, swifty, I didn’t even bring up the “Rose is in the pocket of CAA and Kentucky narrative.

    51. It’s not like Ujiri was available and we whiffed.

      Ujiri was available. He had one year left on his contract and we could have talked to him.

      Arturas Karnisovas was available, too, and he’s running circles around our guys.

      And again… Mills and Perry sucked… but they left a lot behind. We need to grade these guys based on what they started with.

      – They had 4/5 of a starting lineup (Randle, RJ, Bullock, and Mitch) under contract for less than $30mm
      – They lucked into an All-NBA season from Randle that no one saw coming
      – They had 3 great picks in 2020, 3 more great picks in 2021, and a surplus 1st in 2023
      – They had no shitty contracts to unload

      Be honest:

      1. They were dealt a better hand than any Knicks GM since Patrick Ewing left
      2. It was not hard to turn that hand into a playoff team
      2. If you dealt that hand to Ujiri or Karnisovas, they probably would have turned it into something better than these guys did.

      That’s my opinion. A lot of people share my opinion. A lot of people share your opinion. They’re both valid. Let’s live and let live.

    52. Ingmarrrr: His new, shiny midrange J brings him closer to a solidly good player and you can see him reaching his 2-3 times all star ceiling. Giving the team’s place on the win curve is that untouchable? I’d say it is for anyone other than a top 20 star in his prime.

      One thing about his game (should he continue to excel at it) that can/should make him untouchable is crunch time performance, i.e.,, the ability to make big plays in the last few minutes of a game. My unscientific view is that 80% or so of NBA games are decided in the last two minutes/8 possessions…and if you have a guy that can execute (he needs to get his FT shooting better to really excel at it) and become THE guy at the end of the game…well (see Horry, Robert) you can play in the league a long time and be very valuable…to me…and it seems like he hit some big shots in college as well…he seems inpervious to pressure/willing to take the shot…that is invaluable and you don’t want to lose a player who has that ability ath the NBA level…

    53. I suppose the Front Offices logic is Thibs can get Cam to harness his defensive talent to become a plus on that side of the ball.

      From Hawks fans the consensus is that effort was the main thing holding him back(because of wanting out) so maybe NY revitalizes him. The 3pt shooting seems to be legit so you could see a player there.

    54. Does Dallas have Brunson’s full Bird rights? I thought it was identical to the Mitch situation where there capped on how much they can pay him.

      Like Mitch, they were limited in how much they could sign him to as an extension, but have his Full Bird Rights once he becomes a free agent, just like the Knicks with Mitch.

    55. I think the trade is an ok gamble considering what we gave up and the BKN pick adds to our valuable early seconds.

    56. People seem a little more able to give him credit for Grimes, which is nice. But the IQ pick was an absolute home run for where he was picked and people were furious we didn’t take him later (or took him at all).

      My opinion of the IQ draft is the same now as then. They should have taken Bane at #27 and waited for IQ at #33 and definitely not traded out of #33 either way. I’m glad IQ has been good, but I didn’t like the approach then and I still don’t like it now, but I am glad that IQ has played well! And at least the Celtics moronically traded Bane. That would have irked me more if they had kept him (I remember thinking how well he fit them, so it was so great that they dealt him).

    57. I don’t think it’s fair to hold a GM to optimal strategy. There’s a lot of room between optimal and mediocre, let alone bad. More importantly, GMs dont need to make optimal moves to assemble a good team or even win a championship.

    58. Potential #19 Recap:

      I believe djphan had Josh Christopher on his big board for pick 19. Despite a terrible TO% rivaling Noel’s butterstumps, he’s put up some eye catching numbers for HOU so far.
      — —
      Jalen Johnson (my pick) hasn’t played much and had some mediocre efficiency numbers in the g-league over 10 games. Weirdly it’s his 2p% and ft% that suck. Of course, his ft% makes me worry about his longterm 3p%.

    59. LaMelo out today with a non-COVID illness. But let’s be real. Young guy, NYC, dude is hungover af and doesn’t want to play in a matinee game lol

    60. Brian Cronin: My opinion of the IQ draft is the same now as then. They should have taken Bane at #27 and waited for IQ at #33 and definitely not traded out of #33 either way. I’m glad IQ has been good, but I didn’t like the approach then and I still don’t like it now, but I am glad that IQ has played well! And at least the Celtics moronically traded Bane. That would have irked me more if they had kept him (I remember thinking how well he fit them, so it was so great that they dealt him).

      It’s hindsight now, but how in the world did Bane last all the way to pick 30?

    61. No one thinks these guys are idiots. But we study statistics to optimize results. And I think they consistently deliver suboptimal results. Not shitty results… suboptimal results.

      Evaluating management depends on your standards.

      If you are looking for close to perfection, forgetaboutit.

      From my perspective, no management nails every trade, free agency signing, or draft. Some of the biggest names like Morey, Riley, Buford. Presti etc.. have made a huge number of mistakes. It’s way easier to find the mistakes after the fact than it is before and people tend to remember the times they were right and not all the times they were wrong. I’m not sure what the standard should be, but I’ll settle for consistent forward progress and no disasters.

    62. It’s hindsight now, but how in the world did Bane last all the way to pick 30?

      It was always bonkers. Dude could clearly fucking shoot, which the NBA loves, so he lasts almost to the second round?!

    63. SoNiceWeShowItTwice:
      LaMelo out today with a non-COVID illness. But let’s be real. Young guy, NYC, dude is hungover af and doesn’t want to play in a matinee game lol

      Is he old enough to drink? Not like he wouldn’t be recognizable…

    64. GMs dont need to make optimal moves to assemble a good team or even win a championship.

      For evidence google Joe Dumars, Darko Milicic, NBA Champions 2004.

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