Knicks Morning News (2022.01.13)

  • Sienna Miller cuts a fashionable figure in an overcoat while attending a Knicks game in NYC – Daily Mail
    [www.dailymail.co.uk] — Thursday, January 13, 2022 2:41:51 AM

    Sienna Miller cuts a fashionable figure in an overcoat while attending a Knicks game in NYC  Daily Mail

  • Pete Davidson at star-studded Knicks game in New York… after Kim Kardashian LA date – Daily Mail
    [www.dailymail.co.uk] — Thursday, January 13, 2022 2:00:09 AM

    Pete Davidson at star-studded Knicks game in New York… after Kim Kardashian LA date  Daily Mail

  • Atlantic Notes: J. Harris, Knicks Trade Targets, Raptors, T. Harris – hoopsrumors.com
    [www.hoopsrumors.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 11:13:00 PM

    Atlantic Notes: J. Harris, Knicks Trade Targets, Raptors, T. Harris  hoopsrumors.com

  • Barrett shines as Knicks halt streaking Mavs – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 10:58:00 PM

    Barrett shines as Knicks halt streaking Mavs  Yahoo Sports

  • Knicks rip Mavericks to reach .500 on near-perfect Garden night – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 10:26:00 PM

    Knicks rip Mavericks to reach .500 on near-perfect Garden night  New York Post RJ Barrett Continues Hot Streak as Knicks Blow Out Luka Doncic, Mavericks  Bleacher Report’Back Down to Earth’: Mavs Can’t Keep Streak Alive, Fall to Knicks, 108-85  Sports IllustratedKnicks 108, Mavericks 85: Scenes from the most complete game of the season from the starting lineup  Posting and ToastingKnicks crush Mavericks on the back of RJ Barrett masterclass  Empire Sports MediaView Full Coverage on Google News

  • N.Y. Knicks 108, Dallas 85 – New Haven Register
    [www.nhregister.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 10:17:25 PM

    N.Y. Knicks 108, Dallas 85  New Haven Register

  • N.Y. Knicks 108, Dallas 85 – CT Post
    [www.ctpost.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 10:05:52 PM

    N.Y. Knicks 108, Dallas 85  CT Post

  • Knicks’ coach Thibodeau has memories of Brunson, plus COVID-19 update – The Official Home of the Dallas Mavericks – Mavs.com
    [www.mavs.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 10:02:24 PM

    Knicks’ coach Thibodeau has memories of Brunson, plus COVID-19 update – The Official Home of the Dallas Mavericks  Mavs.com

  • Dallas Mavericks vs New York Knicks Jan 12, 2022 Game – Scores, Stats & Highlights – NBA.com
    [www.nba.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 9:23:49 PM

    Dallas Mavericks vs New York Knicks Jan 12, 2022 Game – Scores, Stats & Highlights  NBA.comMavs LIVE Updates: FINAL – New York 108 vs. Dallas 85  Sports IllustratedKnicks rip Mavericks to reach .500 on near-perfect Garden night  New York Post Knicks 108, Mavericks 85: Scenes from the most complete game of the season from the starting lineup  Posting and ToastingRJ Barrett Continues Hot Streak as Knicks Blow Out Luka Doncic, Mavericks  Bleacher ReportView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Walker out again vs. Mavs, still day-to-day – Newsday
    [www.newsday.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 7:42:37 PM

    Walker out again vs. Mavs, still day-to-day  Newsday

  • NBA: Dallas Mavericks at New York Knicks | Fieldlevel | mdjonline.com – MDJOnline.com
    [www.mdjonline.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 7:10:20 PM

    NBA: Dallas Mavericks at New York Knicks | Fieldlevel | mdjonline.com  MDJOnline.com

  • Dallas Mavericks at New York Knicks odds, picks and prediction – The Oshkosh Northwestern
    [www.thenorthwestern.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 4:27:38 PM

    Dallas Mavericks at New York Knicks odds, picks and prediction  The Oshkosh Northwestern

  • New York Knicks player gifts Tampa Catholic High School $2 million for new fieldhouse – WFLA
    [www.wfla.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 4:26:18 PM

    New York Knicks player gifts Tampa Catholic High School $2 million for new fieldhouse  WFLA

  • Q&A: HBCU legend Dick Barnett reminisces about his playing days – NBA.com
    [www.nba.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:36:40 PM

    Q&A: HBCU legend Dick Barnett reminisces about his playing days  NBA.com

  • Proposed Deadline Trade Sends Star Big Man to the Knicks – Heavy.com
    [heavy.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 1:53:23 PM

    Proposed Deadline Trade Sends Star Big Man to the Knicks  Heavy.com

  • Proposed Trade Lands Knicks Pistons Star Jerami Grant – Heavy.com
    [heavy.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 11:45:30 AM

    Proposed Trade Lands Knicks Pistons Star Jerami Grant  Heavy.com

  • The One Blockbuster Trade The New York Knicks Must Pursue – NBA Analysis Network
    [www.nbaanalysis.net] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 11:16:46 AM

    The One Blockbuster Trade The New York Knicks Must Pursue  NBA Analysis Network

  • New York Knicks Rookie Called Up After G-League Dominance – Heavy.com
    [heavy.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 11:02:18 AM

    New York Knicks Rookie Called Up After G-League Dominance  Heavy.com

  • 3 potential Cam Reddish trades for the Atlanta Hawks with the Knicks – Soaring Down South
    [soaringdownsouth.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 10:09:34 AM

    3 potential Cam Reddish trades for the Atlanta Hawks with the Knicks  Soaring Down South

  • What if the Knicks signed DeMar DeRozan and Lonzo Ball? – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 10:00:47 AM

    What if the Knicks signed DeMar DeRozan and Lonzo Ball?  Yahoo Sports

  • Mavs Donuts: Shawn Bradley Health Update, Porzingis OUT vs. Knicks, NBA Roundup – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 9:57:13 AM

    Mavs Donuts: Shawn Bradley Health Update, Porzingis OUT vs. Knicks, NBA Roundup  Sports Illustrated

  • Report: Knicks have interest in Atlanta forward Cam Reddish – Empire Sports Media
    [empiresportsmedia.com] — Wednesday, January 12, 2022 9:51:06 AM

    Report: Knicks have interest in Atlanta forward Cam Reddish  Empire Sports Media

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    221 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.01.13)”

    1. Great stressless game last night – love those.

      RJ was great of course, but shout-out to Julius who didn’t shoot it well and had a couple (just a couple) bad turnovers but played really under control and gave great effort on defense.

      Julius – that’s all we want! He shot 6-17 but let’s just say he hit two more shots and RJ was able to handle what was really a good pass on an RJ basket cut… 8/17 for 21 points, 12 rebounds, 9 assists — that feels like an ideal box score for him.

      Mitch looking like he’s in shape again.

      And I am trying to figure out what sauce to put on the crow I have to eat after saying that RJ was just a guy… now he just needs to be consistent. If he’s hitting that midrange pull-up (mechanics looked super-clean last night to my untrained eye), it really changes everything for him.

    2. From the last thread:

      Alan:
      I’ve only gotten to see snippets of these last few games. What’s changed about RJ that has him playing so much better than earlier in the season? Just that his shot is falling again? Having the ball in his hands more thanks to Julius’ struggles and our lack of a traditional point guard? The relative weakness of our opponents? Something else?
      (And even the opponents thing only seems to go so far. Like, San Antonio was severely depleted against us, but they still had Poetl, aka the kind of rim protector who in the past has given fits to RJ and his mediocre athleticism.)

      Swift has a much more detailed answer in the last thread, so i suggest you go read it.
      I’d only like to add that i think RJ is getting more comfortable going to the rim, he must be aware of the Robert Williamses he can meet there, but he’s using his length (he’s 6’6 with a 6’9 wingspan) in a much more better way, extending his long arms to drop the ball almost directly in the backboard.

    3. Swifty already answered this at the tail end of the last thread, but reposting here to get other takes:

      I’ve only gotten to see snippets of these last few games. What’s changed about RJ that has him playing so much better than earlier in the season? Just that his shot is falling again? Having the ball in his hands more thanks to Julius’ struggles and our lack of a traditional point guard? The relative weakness of our opponents? Something else?

      (And even the opponents thing only seems to go so far. Like, San Antonio was severely depleted against us, but they still had Poetl, aka the kind of rim protector who in the past has given fits to RJ and his mediocre athleticism.)

    4. Feeling hopeful about RJ this morning, but those 2 clunkers against Boston weren’t that long ago. The difference is his last 2 strong performances were against teams whose centers were Poeltl and Powell, not Robert Williams, who destroyed RJ every time he tried to go inside.

      But I like what I’m seeing, and his growing confidence in his game is huge . I’ll be interested to see how he does on Saturday with Capela in the middle.

    5. Alan:
      I’ve only gotten to see snippets of these last few games. What’s changed about RJ that has him playing so much better than earlier in the season? Just that his shot is falling again? Having the ball in his hands more thanks to Julius’ struggles and our lack of a traditional point guard? The relative weakness of our opponents? Something else?

      (And even the opponents thing only seems to go so far. Like, San Antonio was severely depleted against us, but they still had Poetl, aka the kind of rim protector who in the past has given fits to RJ and his mediocre athleticism.)

      The time off for protocols seems to have done him good. RJ had a stomach bug before covid. Last night they mentioned he had it since November, which is longer than previously mentioned.

      Anyway, to me he looks (1) more spry attacking the rim, (2) gets more lift on his jumper, and (3) most importantly he is taking his time attacking the rim.

      Usually he attacks and beelines straight for the rim, he looks to be taking a bit more time setting up the defense and attacking at different angles. Not sure if this is cause or effect of running the offense more.

      I will say he started looking much better in the couple games Randle sat and RJ was forced to initiate.

      Fwiw, Randle has also been moving the ball better since coming back. He still gets frustrated and does dumb stuff but he’s been kicking the ball out off of PnRs to players in motion. It’s given RJ and Fournier better looks & angles to attack.

      In short, idk. There’s a lot about this team that looks different right now. Maybe they’re finally all getting healthy.

    6. On another note, DRTG is up to 15th and Noel has only been back 1 game. If our defense returns we may actually make a run at this thing.

      Noel looked better than I remember him looking earlier in the season. Granted, he mostly played the backups but he looked to be moving well. His main issue last night was getting used to teammates again. He ran into IQ on the PnR a couple times and seemed to miscommunicate. I assume that will all get sorted out soon enough.

    7. I read that article on a trade idea for Christian Wood. I have a better one. First my reasoning. Obi was drafted to replace Randle. Randle blew up and even with him not playing up to last year’s level, he’s keeping Obi at 10-12 mpg. Seeing as Thibs can’t figure out how best to use those 2, why not send Noel and Obi to Houston for Wood? Then Wood can play all the minutes he wants backing up Mitch and Randle. I wouldn’t start Wood next to Randle because he’s not the defender that Noel and Mitch are. But Thibs should be able to mix and match so much better with Mitch/Randle/Wood. If they want to throw in a 2nd round pick they can have Knox too. Or maybe we can throw a pick and Knox their way and take Garuba in that deal.

    8. Best game of the year if you account for consistency across the 4-quarters, opponent’s strength, defensive focus and movement on offense.

      RJ’s reacting very well to his new share of offensive responsabilities, if he’s ready to find steadiness we finally got a real foundation piece.
      He’s still prone to mistakes here and there, but his reads are quick, his passing sharp and he can adapt his pace better than Julius, he looks confortable initiating the offense (that’s my answer to Alan’s question).

      Mitch is rounding into form and Nerlens’s return can be huge.

      Randle, while not perfect, played well, his intensity on defense was remarkable and the body language way better.
      He forced little and even his turnovers weren’t dumb but genuine tries for good plays.
      Yesterday Barrettcuda suggested that he must embrace the “poor man’s Draymond Green” role and I totally agree, he has a little more offensive chops and less defensive ability but he can still be the emotional leader of this team.

      Next game in Atlanta, with the Hawks in shamble, will be a good test.

    9. cybersoze:
      As this is finally getting back on track, i don’t know if i want Kemba back or not.

      I want him in the rotation, maybe Thibs can start him with a “read the temperature” attitude, if he’s hot keep him in, otherwise you can put him on the bench.
      Defenses still respect his pnr pull-up game and 3pt shooting and in general more weapons you have in your arsenal more easily you can find solutions when someone has a bad night.
      I’ve had enough of siberian exiles, dungeons and doghouses…

    10. re: Wood

      I understand the idea from a basketball standpoint, but they could have gotten him when he was a free agent, the price tag wasn’t too high, I think they fear his locker-room effect (he’s fresh from another suspension) and I’m not sure he’s okay with a bench role, no matter how “prestigious”.

    11. The Athletic did a roundup of Jerami Grant trade proposals from the beat writers of the teams rumored to be interested in him. Here’s Fred Katz:

      Knicks
      Trade offer:
      New York receives Jerami Grant, Detroit receives Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel, Obi Toppin, NYK 2022 first-round pick (top-10 protected)

      Fred Katz, Knicks beat writer: You wanted my best offer? Well, this is it. But that doesn’t mean I’d advise the Knicks do it. Grant has proven he can knock down 3s, get to the free-throw line and defend line a maniac on a winning team. He did it in Denver and Oklahoma City. But the fit in New York is clunky, considering he and Julius Randle overlap quite a bit. Meanwhile, with the Knicks sitting at 20-21, 10th in the East, there are ways to improve other than parting with a promising second-year forward, in Toppin, and a first-round pick. They could maneuver this trade differently. The Knicks own two first-round picks that aren’t theirs: Charlotte’s 2022 and Dallas’ 2023. Both are protected. They could include one of them instead of Toppin. Or they could say no to a trade that has them sending out three rotational pieces and a draft pick for an imperfect fit. If they can land a great deal for Grant, that’s one thing, but I don’t see them willingly getting into a bidding war, considering the imperfect fit and their place in the standings.

      Like Katz, I want no part of a Grant deal unless the Pistons are just giving him away — or unless it’s one of a series of dominoes that includes Randle going elsewhere. The fit with this roster makes zero sense.

    12. Like Katz, I want no part of a Grant deal unless the Pistons are just giving him away — or unless it’s one of a series of dominoes that includes Randle going elsewhere. The fit with this roster makes zero sense.

      :-)

      I agree with both of you and said the same thing on the Athletic a couple of days ago, when the trade was first “invented”. One of the stupidest trade proposal I have ever seen from a “professional writer”.

    13. Is Katz serious?!

      That’s an enormous overpay

      The proposal was made by the Pistons’ beat writer, Katz refused it. :-)

    14. Obviously still too early to say the team has figured it out but you see the pieces start to fall in place.

      Noel is back and looks less hobbled than he did before Covid, Fournier looks better after his supposed Shoulder injury earlier in the season, Mitch started to round out with the weight loss and conditioning.

      Lastly RJ has had a nice stretch in January after all the covid and stomach bugs from before the new year. If we get Rose back before the brutal road trip coming up we could be in good shape.

    15. Alan: Like Katz, I want no part of a Grant deal unless the Pistons are just giving him away — or unless it’s one of a series of dominoes

      Well 30 years ago we tendered an offer sheet to his father. Washington matched. Dominoes ensued, and the team got even better.

    16. Max: The proposal was made by the Pistons’ beat writer, Katz refused it.:-)

      It reads like it’s coming from katz maybe not

    17. Noel is back and looks less hobbled than he did before Covid, Fournier looks better after his supposed Shoulder injury earlier in the season, Mitch started to round out with the weight loss and conditioning.

      Lastly RJ has had a nice stretch in January after all the covid and stomach bugs from before the new year. If we get Rose back before the brutal road trip coming up we could be in good shape.

      It is too early but I’ve been saying this for a bit now. The team is slowly getting better. I actually think it’s been happening for a while now but we had a huge setback with covid taking most of the team out and of course when players come back from that it takes another game or two to be back in game shape.

      But we got snake bit hard early in the season. Mitch was slow and out of shape after the long layoff. Noel was hurt. RJ was in a slump (and then sick and then covid). Fournier I guess had this shoulder injury. Add to that a lot of new players and a change from a defense first team to a trying to be more offense team, etc. And yet the team is 500 after all of that and now it feels like MAYBE things are going to be better in this second half.

      That road trip is going to be tough but the one thing we’ve done well this season and last under Thibs is play well on the road.

      Also, shoutout to Grimes last night. Kid is fearless. What a great pick for us. We keep making late first round picks like him and IQ over the next few seasons and we’re going to be in good shape even if we don’t draft a star player.

    18. BernieEarnie: Well 30 years ago we tendered an offer sheet to his father.Washington matched.Dominoes ensued, and the team got even better.

      Saw him play a bunch of times as a young, just out of school Bullets season ticket holder. Nice player, but the Knicks offer sheet was excessive. (Obviously the highlight of those years was seeing late, but still all-star, Bernard. He never stopped favoring the bad knee, ever, and still had enough to play at an all-star level. Incredible. Not the off-the-charts explosive pre-knee guy, but still clearly, without question, a top 75 guy. Massive snub.)

    19. It reads like it’s coming from katz

      You’re right, my fault, in the “original” piece tuesday they did a combined piece where the lines weren’t attributed, I take for granted it was a proposal made by the Pistons’ beat writer…
      … I find Katz doing and at the same time refusing the proposal a bit stupid :-)

    20. Sure at least kinda seems like the crowd reaction has put Julius in his place and he’s much more willing to defer now. Maybe there was a talk with Thibs in there somewhere, too.

      Put the ball in RJ’s hands.

    21. Well 30 years ago we tendered an offer sheet to his father. Washington matched. Dominoes ensued, and the team got even better.

      On the one hand, we probably would have been overpaying Harvey. On the other hand, he was much more of a natural small forward than Charles Smith, and a tougher player overall. I’ll go to my grave believing he’d have dunked the damn ball against Chicago.

      But also, as good as Doc played PG for us for a season or two, long-term the team would have been much better off either keeping Mark Jackson or trading him for something better than Charles freaking Smith.

      So I cannot agree that we lucked out when Washington matched that offer sheet.

    22. Max: You’re right, my fault, in the “original” piece tuesday they did a combined piece where the lines weren’t attributed, I take for granted it was a proposal made by the Pistons’ beat writer…
      … I find Katz doing and at the same time refusing the proposal a bit stupid :-)

      Weird

    23. Fournier looks less injured now, too. I can see the outlines of my proposed and preferred “soft build,” now JR just has to stop taking so many mid-range Js.

      That said, it’s only been a couple games.

    24. Grant is a perfectly acceptable slightly versatile forward in the Morris brother mold that NBA media have groupthinked themselves into thinking is some sort of star player because he would legitimately be a nice piece for some contenders who could use a big wing player. He’s overpaid and not particularly good, which is exactly the sort of player a team like the Knicks should want no part of.

      RJ’s 3 point shooting has crept up to a perfectly cromnulent 36%. If you want to know why he’s looking better again the biggest reason is his 3 point shots have been going in the basket a lot more often. He’s 17 for 34 from 3 this month-in November he hit 21 3s in 15 games.

    25. Also, Barrett’s usage split by month:

      October – 6 games 20.7%
      November – 15 games 23.6%
      December – 8 games 28.3%
      January – 6 games 29.2%

      Last year his high was 25.5% in march (13 games).

    26. Per Katz, in the7 games since OKC (when JR was out with COVID), RJ is now averaging 24.6 points on 49-43-65 shooting and has upped his dunks and layups attempts per game from 4.2 to 7.1.

    27. I’d be fine taking Grant to play him on the wing, and dumping Fournier. Even the resurgent Fournier got blown by several times last night.

      Still wouldn’t offer much for Grant, definitely less than Obi & a 1st.

      Grant would be useful in a playoff matchup (assuming we make the playoffs) to guard KD or LaVine or any other lanky wing.

    28. One of the announcers last night noted that RJ said he felt healthy for the first time in forever. Apparently that ‘stomach bug’ or whatever it was seems to have been a real thing.

    29. Max: I’ve had enough of siberian exiles, dungeons and doghouses…

      Me too, that was not what i had in mind. I was thinking if we should buy him out, to let him go to a contender. When he came here we were expected to be much better, and probably a lock to make the playoffs. As the season is going we’re not even a lock to be in the play-in, let alone survive the play-in and get to the playoffs. His knee condition won’t get any better as time goes by, so it might be better for him to chase a ring (or at least a splash in the playoffs) sooner than later. If we do this, there’s even a chance he won’t have to relocate. :P
      And all this, because i think he is a non factor on how this team plays. If RJ or Randle are playing great we almost certainly win no matter how Kemba plays, and if it’s the opposite we probably lose. So it’d be a good will move by the Knicks to release him, and at the same time we can keep Grimes in the rotation and everything as it is, now that it’s working.

    30. Well, let’s hope this recent hot streak by RJ continues, and when he inevitably does cool off, it is not a dramatic drop.

      It was fun watching him last night.

    31. Early Bird:
      I’d be fine taking Grant to play him on the wing, and dumping Fournier. Even the resurgent Fournier got blown by several times last night.
      Still wouldn’t offer much for Grant, definitely less than Obi & a 1st.
      Grant would be useful in a playoff matchup (assuming we make the playoffs) to guard KD or LaVine or any other lanky wing.

      I agree. Grant has been playing PF, but assuming he can play SF as good, it’d be a good move. More defense will always be to Thibs liking. ;)

      Maybe a 3 team trade:
      Knicks get Jerami Grant;
      Pistons get THT, Nunn, Knox, CHA 1RP (from Knicks);
      Lakers get Evan Fournier;

      Starting 5: Kemba (Burks? IQ?) + RJ + Jerami + Julius + Mitch
      Backups: DRose + Quick + Burks + Obi + Noel
      On the outside looking in: Grimes, Taj, Deuce

    32. Does anybody know the Atlanta scuttlebutt on Reddish? Is he a problem in the lockerroom? I don’t really understand their motivation to do a deal like this right now. I get that eventually he was probably going to be too expensive for them with all the other guys they want to pay but seems like this is a pretty low price for them not to just let the situation keep developing for now.

    33. How much will we pay for Zion?

      Randle can’t coexist with him and will reunite with Ingram and Hart, plus who/what?

      Grimes? IQ? Mitch? A couple of protected first?

    34. This has to be a precursor to another trade but on it’s own seems like a worthy gamble for the Knicks considering what they are giving up.

    35. I’m interested in seeing just how good Cam is on defense. Like I said about Grant, we could use a long perimeter defender.

    36. I mean it basically comes down to whether you think the 19th pick in the draft will be better or worse than Cam Reddish.

      Probably a toss up, but I guess it’s worth a shot if it gets us tubby Zion.

    37. Our backcourt/wing is full already I’m guessing we will see a Burks and/or Kemba trade soon to clear up space.

    38. KJG:
      why did Reddish fall out of favor in ATL just when it seemed like he was getting better

      Presumably because they didn’t want to pay him.

      Max:
      How much will we pay for Zion?

      Randle can’t coexist with him and will reunite with Ingram and Hart, plus who/what?

      Grimes? IQ? Mitch? A couple of protected first?

      Randle, either IQ or Obi, and 3 1s. One of the 1s will be the Dallas top 10-protected.

    39. Oh also it probably doesn’t matter because his defense makes him unplayable but since it may be the last ever chance to discuss Kevin Knox, I’ve always thought he needed to be on a “heliocentric” team where one guy does all the creation and the other guys just take catch and shoot 3s. I really like the fit in ATL for him and if there’s any team where he might be salvageable, that’s the one (there’s like a 99% chance he’s unsalvageable).

    40. Welp there goes Grimes development. I’m not sure how much Reddish will help this year and like people have mentioned, maybe this is a precursor to another incoming trade.

      Idk maybe Duke reunion in the works?

    41. Leon forgot his sleeping pills and start trading three weeks earlier :-)

      Funny thay did it just before a game with the Hawks…

    42. And like the Phoenix, from the ashes of the incinerated 19th pick,
      ladies and gentlemen… Cam… Reddish!

    43. marechal: What is Cam Reddish supposed to be good at?

      Strengths: great size and length, big feet, good at exercising (i.e. running and jumping), looks like a basketball player

      Weaknesses: bad at basketball

    44. So Cam and RJ become RFAs at the same time Be interesting to see how this plays out.
      If Coach K indicates he’s joining Knicks as a consultant next season, then Knicks need to start scouting for the best nutrionist.

    45. I think this should signal an intent to trade Fournier. He doesn’t really fit with RJ as they’re both a little too small to play SF.

      Fournier hasn’t done all that much as a creator and is atrocious on D.

      Would kinda suck, only because Fournier is just starting to get it going.

      Alternatively, Burks is just the starting PG now. Play IQ with Grimes & Reddish.

    46. I doubt the FO is down on Grimes I think a Fournier trade might be in the works to clear some space.

    47. “And like the Phoenix, from the ashes of the incinerated 19th pick,
      ladies and gentlemen… Cam… Reddish!”

      Lol, well played.

    48. Yes, trade Fournier. Start Burks, Cam off the bench.

      Is Solomon Hill a useful player?

      It seems we swapped Cam for Knox, which is an upgrade. Got Solomon Hill, which is probably nothing and swapped our incinerated pick for a second rounder.

      It seems…OK TO ME?

    49. That’s a pretty big vote of confidence from the FO for RJ. I guess Randle will have to play the part of the poor (very poor) man’s Zion (the college version).

    50. I knew Jowles was going to be excited about this trade!

      Mixed feelings. It’s a better outcome than I expected from the dumb draft night trade, and Reddish has had some very good games this year. But he’s also another maddeningly inconsistent player coming to a team that already has a whole bunch of those. And he’s expecting to get paid, which is the only reason Atlanta gave him away for such a pittance.

      Agree that this is the precursor to at least one more move, if not several. But this roster very much needed another big wing, and Reddish is — as almost anyone in the world, including several commenters here — a significant upgrade in flexible frontcourt depth over Kevin Knox.

    51. We have a big need for the player Reddish theoretically is, the problem is he has never been that player and probably never will be.

      Still, I’m not apoplectic because at least he has 1.5 years left on his deal, and perhaps more importantly, if this makes us getting Zion 1% likelier it might well be worth it.

      Would I prefer any number of players who were available at pick 19 in the 2021 draft on a full rookie-scale deal? Absolutely.

      We used to trade picks for old scrubs, young scrubs are better because they at least still have the chance to outgrow being scrubs. Glass half full baby!

    52. I’m fairly optimistic on this trade. I recall that the Knicks were really high on Reddish during the pre-draft process 2 years ago, and that really worried me because I saw a player at Duke who had a lot of natural ability but was wildly inconsistent and would just disappear in a number of games.
      But in the NBA he has shown progress and, given the logjam in Atlanta, I wouldn’t construe this at all as a condemnation by Hawks management.
      My hope is that he will love playing with RJ and see how hard RJ is working. And more importantly, Thibs is the perfect coach to light a fire under him.
      This trade is a risk definitely worth taking.

    53. Bo Nateman: If Coach K indicates he’s joining Knicks as a consultant next season, then Knicks need to start scouting for the best nutrionist.

      A common theme among young educators is to want to adopt the least-advantaged of them out of pity. I’m sure Z-man has has to remind a few teachers that, hey, there’s another class coming in next fall, so don’t get too attached to this lot. Coach K has had, like, 800 different serfs under his feudal estate. I wonder how delusional he’d have to be to pick RJ Barrett and Cam Reddish as the ones that he dropped his North Carolinan sainthood to follow to the big leagues.

      (Not that I think you think it’s actually going to happen, but… it’s not going to happen.)

    54. Strengths: great size and length, big feet, good at exercising (i.e. running and jumping), looks like a basketball player

      Weaknesses: bad at basketball

      That’s what we do around here.

    55. But dang, I had big plans for that pick. There should be some very good talent there (if it conveys).

      BUT… this could push RJ back to SG for much of his minutes and give us another (good? probably never great) defender on the wing… Makes me think the ball will be back in RJ’s hands a lot more moving forward. I just wish we could’ve gotten Cooper thrown into the deal, but I’m not mad.

    56. Grayson Allen, Marvin Bagley III and Frank Jackson trades are in the works in our pivot from Kentucky East to Duke North.

    57. On the one hand, we probably would have been overpaying Harvey. On the other hand, he was much more of a natural small forward than Charles Smith, and a tougher player overall. I’ll go to my grave believing he’d have dunked the damn ball against Chicago.

      But also, as good as Doc played PG for us for a season or two, long-term the team would have been much better off either keeping Mark Jackson or trading him for something better than Charles freaking Smith.

      So I cannot agree that we lucked out when Washington matched that offer sheet.

      outstanding analysis. but the original sin was pursuing harvey grant in the first place after Xavier McDaniel had just been a force in the playoffs.

      I’ll never understand why Knicks tried to get cute in 92 with the likes of Harvey Grant, Charles Smith, and Tony Campbell at small forward. We should have just committed to being a bludgeon and kept the X-man.

    58. swiftandabundant:
      Yes, trade Fournier. Start Burks, Cam off the bench.

      Is Solomon Hill a useful player?

      It seems we swapped Cam for Knox, which is an upgrade. Got Solomon Hill, which is probably nothing and swapped our incinerated pick for a second rounder.

      It seems…OK TO ME?

      BKREF says Hill is out for the year. So I’m taking a guess, that no he won’t be. That said, he still may be the most valuable player in the trade.

    59. I think this trade is solid value for us overall. Not the world’s biggest Cam fan but he has genuinely improved enough to where I can see him staying in the NBA long term despite still being bad. Not sure about having to pay him in 1.5 years, but it’s not a bad position to be in given the cost (a protected first that possibly could’ve never conveyed if things go south for Charlotte). All in all, Reddish’s median outcome is probably better than the median outcome of the 20th pick in the NBA draft at this point, though he’s less of a value proposition in the short term. Getting a 2025 BK second (which will be a good 2nd, since BK’s window is now) is just gravy. Confused as to why the Hawks would do this trade tbh.

      Also, the Zion intrigue is palpable. Maybe he hates pizza…

    60. At least I don’t have to root for Charlotte anymore, lol.

      EDIT: Oh man, I just looked at the stats. Is Reddish even better than Knox?

    61. According to SNY’s Ian Begley, who reported the Knicks’ interest in Reddish earlier this week, the Knicks and Hawks had talked about a deal for Reddish that sent Quentin Grimes to Atlanta. However, some Knicks decision-makers opposed including Grimes, who is not in the deal.

      So that’s good, at least.

    62. outstanding analysis. but the original sin was pursuing harvey grant in the first place after Xavier McDaniel had just been a force in the playoffs.

      I’ll never understand why Knicks tried to get cute in 92 with the likes of Harvey Grant, Charles Smith, and Tony Campbell at small forward. We should have just committed to being a bludgeon and kept the X-man.

      Chris Herring’s book on the 90s Knicks — which comes out next week and is so outstanding, I am blurbed saying so somewhere on the covers — explains that it was more complicated than that. The plan was to get Grant and keep X-Man, or something along those lines (I read it a few months ago), but the deals had to be done in an order where X-Man signed last, there were some miscommunications and hurt feelings, and he signed with Boston before we could clear it up.

    63. I wonder how delusional he’d have to be to pick RJ Barrett and Cam Reddish as the ones that he dropped his North Carolinan sainthood to follow to the big leagues.

      The conspiracy theory would have Coach K coming here if Zion was reunited with the other two.

      (Not that I believe either is going to happen.)

    64. According to SNY’s Ian Begley, who reported the Knicks’ interest in Reddish earlier this week, the Knicks and Hawks had talked about a deal for Reddish that sent Quentin Grimes to Atlanta. However, some Knicks decision-makers opposed including Grimes, who is not in the deal.

      So that’s good, at least.

      Wow! We dodged a bullet here!

    65. thanks for that, Alan! I do remember hearing on WFAN (the twitter of the time) that something like that went on behind the scenes, but never knew it was confirmed.

    66. Alan: The conspiracy theory would have Coach K coming here if Zion was reunited with the other two.

      (Not that I believe either is going to happen.)

      To the extent, Zion listens to Coach K, he might get some encouragement about actualizing his potential by playing for taskmaster Thibs
      From a Forbes article
      “Nothing that Tom does surprises me, he’s one of the outstanding coaches in our game and helped me immensely with the U.S. team,” Coach K said Monday on a conference call in response to my question. “I learned a lot from him and we’re close friends. And he’ll build a program or a culture there, especially with the new front office.”

      Former Duke star R.J. Barrett, the No. 3 pick in 2019, is averaging 16.5 points, 7.4 rebounds and 3.3 assists while averaging an NBA-high 38.8 minutes per game. There has been some concern that Barrett is getting worn down with all the minutes.

      “When Tom got the job, I told R.J., ‘You’re going to love him and love what he’s going to help you do,’” Coach K said.

      “I think R.J. benefits from [the new culture],” he added. “He wants to be coached. He’s still very much a developing player and Tom and his staff will do that.”
      https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamzagoria/2021/01/11/dukes-coach-k-syracuses-jim-boeheim-say-knicks-tom-thibodeau-will-change-team-culture/
      ( thank you for recognizing that I did not think that Coach K to Knicks would happen)

    67. what an amazing trade. my favorite part about it is that it will make everyone who had a take on the 19th pick say “see! I was right.”

    68. I don’t mind taking a 1.5 year flier on Cam but I would rather have taken a 4 year flier on Jalen or Keon Johnson.

    69. Hawks fans seem to hate the trade form what I’m seeing

      Actually I take it back.

      Seeing another fan base get pissed off about the charlotte pick…. that’s my favorite part of the trade!

      Imagine the Hawks fans right now slowly discovering all the protections. It’s joyful.

    70. So we turned our 2021 picks (#19, #21, and #32) plus Knox into Reddish, Grimes, McBride, and Jokubitis. Decent, I suppose.

    71. I hope that pick doesn’t convey for years, and keeps getting passed around the NBA like a shitty throw in.

    72. I have no idea what the Knicks will do with this trade. The Knicks don’t need all the draft picks they had coming up so the protected 1st was expendable and we got a future 2nd. So the cost doesn’t bother me.

      What bothers me is how this appears to be an improvement. Who loses time? Obi? Grimes? Burks? I have no clue how minutes will be distributed. When Kemba and Rose return it’ll be worse. I guess Hill is a stash but Reddish doesn’t move the needle for me.

    73. When I first saw the trade, I had sticker shock. Then I came to my senses. This was a savvy trade. I like it. If there’s ever a 1st round pick to trade for a guy like Reddish- it’s that Charlotte pick. I also think it means Kemba might not make it back to the lineup. With this trade, we easily go 10 deep with quality:
      C- Mitch, Noel
      PF- Randle, Obi
      SF- RJ, Reddish
      SG- Fournier, Grimes
      PG- Burks, Quickley

      Then when Rose comes back, Thibs has a decision to make at the 1. Leon now has more roster decisions to make. Who gets moved to make room once the roster’s healthy? Obi? Fournier? I mean..is there a Fournier trade that works? You can easily start Quickley and Burks in the backcourt once Rose is back and still have firepower on the bench. And if Reddish can play some small-ball 4, shit, Obi will have to watch his back. Not that Reddish is better, but he offers more versatility if he can play some 4.

      But I’m foolishly looking ahead. This is a good trade. Reddish is a really nice puzzle piece for Thibs to tinker with. Look at Leon Rose trying to get the Blue Devil Band back together LOL

      Sorry..I had to. But I’m down on Zion. I hope he gets his body and health right- I just don’t trust him to at this point

    74. Hubert:
      I hope that pick doesn’t convey for years, and keeps getting passed around the NBA like a shitty throw in.

      It’ll be like Tim McCormick, who was briefly a Knick near the start of the Pat Riley era, entirely because having him on our roster at the end of his contract gave us an extra 1st round pick (from Houston via Atlanta, dating back to a trade four years earlier).

    75. Early Bird:
      Cam’s box score numbers aren’t terrible but LEBRON, RAPTOR, and RAPM all hate him.

      So then what? Is the consensus among the mentors here that Cam > E4? A cursory compare on advanced stats shows them as basically the same. Is it Cam’s D? Or just personalities in the locker room? Because I’m still a booster for the Frenchman, and our offense seems to be working better of late (as long as the other team has no center).

    76. Wouldn’t be remotely surprised if the incinerated pick bounced another time before the trade deadline.

    77. I’ve been saying all year we need an actual 3 to defend the wing so maybe we can mold Reddish into that. RJ/Grimes and Evan all 2 guards.

    78. Is Cam going to be the next Frank debate or is nobody politely enamored by the neophyte.

    79. I can’t say I’ve watched much Reddish tape but it seems like the idea that he has improved significantly is putting a lot of weight on his 150 3pa this season. The rest of his numbers look really similar to his past seasons.

    80. Cam Reddish is a decent return for the shitty Charlotte pick.

      But the shitty Charlotte pick was a bad return for the 19th pick.

      When you put it all together, Leon Rose chose 1.5 years of cost control on a questionable prospect with upside over 4 years of cost control on a questionable prospect with upside.

      It’s not what you want.

    81. I bet Grimes loses time despite arguably outproducing Reddish (SSS) this year. I think that’s a huge bummer but I’m not sure who else would and we pretty much have to play Reddish now. FWIW this at least theoretically would make a Burks and/or Fournier trade seem less like a punt on the season, but I don’t see that happening.

      I mean ideally we mostly use Reddish to relieve the minutes burden on RJ and Randle, but I think Grimes will be fully out of the rotation while Obi and Quickley lose some minutes too. Don’t kill the messenger I’m just guessing based on what I’ve seen from Tom Thibodeau.

    82. KevinR:
      Hawks fans seem to hate the trade form what I’m seeing

      Every single fanbase is, like, 96% swifts, 3.9% KB gen-pops, and 0.1% ptmilos. Trading away any young lottery-pick player is going to have people raising their pitchforks.

    83. Well, if we didn’t incinerate that pick with the stupid draft night trade then we definitely did now. Cam Reddish sucks and does nothing positive on the court. Even better, Reddish and RJ fit terribly next to each other at Duke.

    84. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats:

      C- Mitch, Noel
      PF- Randle, Obi
      SF- RJ, Reddish
      SG- Fournier, Grimes
      PG- Burks, Quickley

      I do like the look of this, though. Because — Don’t want Thibs to break RJ.

      Bo Nateman: Former Duke star R.J. Barrett, the No. 3 pick in 2019, is averaging 16.5 points, 7.4 rebounds and 3.3 assists while averaging an NBA-high 38.8 minutes per game. There has been some concern that Barrett is getting worn down with all the minutes.

    85. Reddish is long, young, defends well, has upped his percentage from downtown by 11 percentage points this year, and did the opposite of wilting in last year’s playoffs. It’s a worthwhile risk at that price point. I give it an A-minus. Might not pan out, but no guarantee is available at that price point.

    86. If it makes it more likely Zion joins the Knicks it’s a good move, otherwise it’s probably a waste of a small asset. We need Thibs & co to teach Cam defense and tell him he’s only allowed to shoot 3s and at the rim. He’s one of the absolute worst mid-range players in the NBA

    87. Cam Reddish is a decent return for the shitty Charlotte pick.

      But the shitty Charlotte pick was a bad return for the 19th pick.

      Reading Hawks fans’ reactions to the protections is really funny. I guess the people here who thought they were rather onerous weren’t insane.

      Off the top of my head, some guys available at 19 I would prefer to Reddish based on what they’ve done in the NBA and/or the G-League: Jalen Johnson, Ayo Donsunmu, Cam Thomas, Bones Hyland, Josh Christopher, Sharife Cooper, Jared Butler. Probably forgetting some.

      That’s the baseline Reddish has to beat for this to come out as a good series of transactions for us. It’s not impossible, but I ain’t holding my breath.

      However if we get Zion, I will officially forgive Leon Rose for the sin of incineration.

    88. Reddish, 22, gets his wish for a deal to a team with the ability to give him an increased role and an extension this summer

      He doesn’t deserve either of those things!

    89. Lost in the Athletic’s comments on the trade (man, are the Hawks’ fans pissed!) looms this diamond of a trivia, that made me fall from my chair:

      Question: Has any team had the first three draft picks from the same year on the same team?

      Answer: Only one I can think of is the 2005 Miami Heat, who had Shaq (1), Alonzo Mourning (2), and Christian Laettner (3) from 1992.

    90. DRed: He doesn’t deserve either of those things!

      Holy shit, he want’s an extension this summer? Fuck that, dude has another year on his rookie deal and then he hits RFA. It would be insane to extend him before then especially based on his current play.

    91. For now, i just want to say that the Hawks traded Luka Doncic for Trae Young and a pick that might convey into 2 second rounders. Clearly they won the trade. LOL

    92. I question the soundness of the idea that reassembling his college team is attractive to Zion.

    93. If I was a Hawks fan I wouldn’t be jumping for joy because as has been well-chronicled here the pick is rather unexciting. If it was all they could get for Reddish, that’s a pretty big indictment of the one extra pick they got from trading away Luka Doncic.

      Since they never had the opportunity to just make the 19th pick in the 2021 draft, I understand thinking whatever upside might be left in Reddish is more valuable than this shitty pick.

    94. “Fun” with numbers:

      @JosephGillMA
      Cam Reddish scores in the 46th percentile for all NBA players on a per-possession basis. Basically league-average.

      If he didn’t take a single mid-range jumper this season, that number would jump to almost the 70th percentile: A near-max-level player at 22 years old.

    95. Next up, trade the draft rights to Ognjen Jaramaz to the Spurs for Tre Jones, and send a 3rd round pick to Milwaukee for Javin DeLaurier.

    96. Here’s some more fun assumptions to entertain:

      we traded out of 19 & 21 bc Thibs didn’t want players who weren’t ready for the NBA.

      Then we traded for Cam Reddish bc Thibs wouldn’t play the guy we drafted (bc he was NBA ready) bc he was a rookie.

    97. anyway, I know Z-Man is going to bookmark this thread, so I’ll get my verdict in:

      zoom in and it’s a good individual move. He’ll help us now, and there is a potential player in there who I wouldn’t mind having.

      zoom out and put it in a larger context, and I think it’s another indication that Leon Rose doesn’t think too far ahead.

    98. it could have been worse. i do get why people have hope for reddish. his shot looks decent, he hits his fts, and he has much more of an inside the arc game than most 3&d hopefuls. he’s developed the same daddy long legs eurostep rj has, tho he’s not quite as strong. he has great size on defense and jumps passing lanes well. he’s 22. and the pick is well protected.

      but i still don’t like it bc despite the positives i just don’t like reddish and i worry it implies we’re going to (over)extend him this summer barring a disastrous second half. people seem torn on his defense but i think he’s legit horrendous on d, this year especially. the orlando game was a great microcosm. he made one of the best defensive plays i’ve seen a guard make all year where he correctly switched off of the good wagner to protect the free roller, then in one motion switched back against wagner’s drive and flat swatted him at the rim. but he also played over 40 minutes in that game and was the worst defensive player on the court amid stiff competition. he ran into screen after screen and they were all right in front him.

      he doesn’t have good vision or shot selection on offense so far, and his off ball movement is kinda peripatetic as opposed to showing a ton of feel for the game. he also has some real pout-when-things-go-poorly-tendencies, tho in his defense he has openly worked on that with his trainers; the athletic write a long piece on it. he also seems like he might have above average injury risk.

    99. “Fun” with numbers

      “If a player didn’t do all of the bad things he does, he would be above average” is hardly a selling point.

    100. Zion’s a UFA in 2024, but once he turns down the max extension offer they can give him this late summer (*), the handwriting will be on the wall.

      (*) Or tells them behind the scenes not to bother even making it.

    101. Like I said, I’m interested in watching his defense. I haven’t seen it. He does not seem good by any metric except steals. Instead, he’s one of the worst in the league by LEBRON or RAPTOR.

    102. marechal: “If a player didn’t do all of the bad things he does, he would be above average” is hardly a selling point.

      Why do you suppose I put “fun” in quotes? Though here are the next two tweets in the thread:

      @JosephGillMA
      Sure, is it realistic to think that a player just can elect to never take a midrange? No

      When a player has over 22% of their total half-court shot coming from the mid-range, and only 10 of their 67 mid-range shots come with under 4 seconds in the shot clock… They can cut back.

      @JosephGillMA
      What Cam does above league-average, relative to all other players with at least 10 possessions this season:

      Spot-Up
      —> Catch-and-Shoot
      Transition

      What Cam does about league-average:

      PnR ball-handling (yes, I’m serious)
      Handoffs

      Cutting some of that 22% would go a long way.

    103. Thibs already has issues with too many players to juggle and the trade makes sense only if Reddish is a rotation piece, not a garbage time filler like Knox, so probably there’ll be other moves…

      I’m not sure Fournier is the one on the move, I fear that Burks has much more appealing, a better contract and can land a better return.

    104. If he didn’t take a single mid-range jumper this season, that number would jump to almost the 70th percentile: A near-max-level player at 22 years old.

      The 2021-2022 New York Knicks coaching staff is notoriously good at getting important players to stop taking god awful shots, particularly mid-range jumpers

    105. Why do you suppose I put “fun” in quotes? Though here are the next two tweets in the thread:

      Oh I wasn’t countering you, just adding to the dismaying reality.

      He just strikes me as the usual Knicks inefficient player who we will spend years analyzing and arguing that if only he could change part of his game he would be ok.

    106. I’m gonna go on our record and say I like this trade. Reason being is Cam is a more tradeable asset than anybody they’d take with the pick. At least in the short- term.

      Now, whether they actually use him as a trade asset, no comment on that.

    107. Typical Hubert, already laying the groundwork for a future claim to being right no matter how things turn out.

    108. Here’s what I have to say about the Cam Reddish trade:

      1) This is how we know we live in a simulation purely created to drive Jowles nuts. We got Melo, we got Bargnani, and now we have Reddish.

      2) Cam Reddish was a tremendously terrible player at Duke. But I think without a doubt, he’s a better player now than he was at Duke – his eFG is bad but not awful at 49%, his TS is bad but not awful at 53.7%, and has been improving. He is very plausibly our backup PF and has played 1/4 of his NBA minutes at the 4 per B-R — basically PJ Washington/Brandon Clarke/Kevin Knox sized with the benefit that he is quick enough defensively to guard wings also. Getting him could be perceived as a buy-low opportunity, but also probably means that another trade is coming. Reddish is probably a rotation player but at a position where we already have too many rotation players wing-wise — Barrett, Burks, Fournier, Grimes, and of course Quickley often plays the 2. And so does that mean one of those wings is on his way out, or does that mean Obi is on his way out?

      Overall I think it is a reasonable risk to take– presumably Walt Perrin had some say in this, and in Walt we should trust. He clearly has tools, and our coaching staff has shown pretty good development chops. I highly doubt this was done as some conspiracy theory to get Zion, but if that happens, well who could complain.

    109. Thibs already has issues with too many players to juggle and the trade makes sense only if Reddish is a rotation piece, not a garbage time filler like Knox, so probably there’ll be other moves…

      I see this as good though. Knox wasn’t in the rotation at all really and was out the door this season. So we got back a better/younger player who could crack the rotation but doesn’t have to immediately and hes got more time left on his rookie contract.

    110. I like this deal.

      I haven’t given up on Knox long term, but he had no role here and was going to be let go. So there’s no loss if they weren’t going to try to develop him into a scorer off the bench.

      Cam Reddish has always been considered a high talent prospect, but he’s had an “injury interrupted college and pro career”. In the brief periods he’s been healthy on a somewhat sustained basis, he was clearly improving and still looked like a good prospect. We weren’t going to get a prospect like him with the original Dallas pick or this Charlotte pick. We have a season and a half to take a good look at him regardless of whether he wants an extension or not. I also tossed around the idea of moving RJ back to SG so he could use his strength to get to the basket better. Now we have a legitimate SF sized rotation player to do that with in some lineups.

      The Charlotte pick came in handy. We have a better team, filled a need, and added a young prospect.

      We still have plenty of ammo if a star becomes available. In fact, since Cam is so much more highly regarded than Knox, he’s an asset also if it’s not working out.

      Repeat after me…

      We weren’t going to get a prospect like him with the original Dallas pick or this Charlotte pick.

      Now just get him healthy and start developing him. Let’s see how far he goes.

    111. how is it possible that ptmilo can provide such great, detailed analysis of how Cam Reddish played against the orlando magic if he’s not a robot? He even knows that Cam worked on his pouting with his trainers!! You’re giving it away now.

    112. The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’m sure Z-man has has to remind a few teachers that, hey, there’s another class coming in next fall, so don’t get too attached to this lot.

      Yes and no. Our school markets the notion that we are sort of attached to students for life. The typical mistake is to blur the lines between being a teacher and a parent/guardian/big brother/big sister. However, I do admonish teachers not to value one cohort over another in terms of professional approach. I remember one teacher who wanted to skip the graduation ceremony of the students he taught in a particularly apathetic cohort because he “didn’t feel connected to them.” That sort of thinking is repulsive to me, and thankfully, no one still here is unprofessional enough to feel that way.

    113. Gotta be honest – I’m not sure that the 2025 Brooklyn pick is just a throw-in. That’s going to be Durant’s age 36-37 season and Harden’s age 35-36 season, and who knows whether Kyrie will still be playing basketball by then. That has the potential of being an actual asset.

    114. Also so glad we can never talk again about whether the 19th pick was incinerated.

      Instead we can talk for 14 threads and 16973 comments about whether Cam Reddish sucks.

    115. Kevin Knox gave 2 million dollars away? Is that a tax thing?

      Its amazing he is going to make 18 million dollars in the NBA at a minimum.

      I am not excited about Cam but I guess it’s a whatever.

    116. Also so glad we can never talk again about whether the 19th pick was incinerated.

      Just like how Frank Ntilikina becoming a fringe rotation player for a different team ended any and all discussion of him!

    117. I was only thinking about Cam as a SF but as Frank mentioned this could mean Obi is on his way out.

      Probably doenst mean anything as well but he was really solid in the Bucks series last season.

    118. Frank:
      Gotta be honest – I’m not sure that the 2025 Brooklyn pick is just a throw-in.That’s going to be Durant’s age 36-37 season and Harden’s age 35-36 season, and who knows whether Kyrie will still be playing basketball by then.That has the potential of being an actual asset.

      It’s a decent pick and we shouldn’t overlook it, but I’d say the 19th pick is still better than Cam plus the 2nd.

    119. Probably doenst mean anything as well but he was really solid in the Bucks series last season.

      Yeah – I didn’t realize just how great he was in that series — 92 minutes played, per-36 #s of 20 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 2.3 steals, 0.8 blocks, shooting 52.8% overall, 64.3% from 3, 80% from the line.

      Obviously a small sample but a 21 year old being able to do that in the ECFs against the eventual NBA champion is no small accomplishment.

    120. Frank: Yeah – I didn’t realize just how great he was in that series — 92 minutes played, per-36 #s of 20 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 2.3 steals, 0.8 blocks, shooting 52.8% overall, 64.3% from 3, 80% from the line.

      Obviously a small sample but a 21 year old being able to do that in the ECFs against the eventual NBA champion is no small accomplishment.

      I don’t know how good he will become eventually. No one does. But I can tell you that both his college and pro stats are not a very good indication of what was then or is now. He’s had a series of injuries throughout his career that have both slowed his progress and hidden what he’s capable of doing when 100%, in top shape, and playing regularly. He’s looked good to me in spurts when healthy. Maybe you can consider him an injury risk, but hasn’t had the kinds of injuries I would worry about. We needed a real SF anyway. I think it’s a good move using a pick that was unlikely to net us anyone that’s as good now or eventually. I think Atlanta is trying to make a move for Simmons (which would be a great fit), This gives them an extra pick and I think it clears a little space.

    121. We upgraded talent/potential while moving a pick down from late first round to second round and we only had to ship out a player who has been a bust here and would be gone this summer anyways.

      But big picture, this wasn’t a “win now” trade. It was a youth/potential trade so regardless of whether you think Cam is going to work out or not, you gotta admit it shows thinking about the future and not chasing wins now at all costs.

    122. thenoblefacehumper: Don’t kill the messenger I’m just guessing based on what I’ve seen from Tom Thibodeau.

      Noble, I was totally in this space when I first heard about it — glad for Knox, sad and confused and maybe a little angry for us — but Totes’ lineup actually makes great sense (thanks, Totes). We’ll see if Thibs agrees.

    123. KevinR: Probably doenst mean anything as well but he was really solid in the Bucks series last season.

      Was he really solid or did he randomly get red hot for one game?

    124. I think there was almost universal agreement that the tradeout of the 19th pick did not yield commensurate value. It was always a question of degree. To me it was a minor blip in an otherwise solid draft night. To some it was a godawful blunder that portended horrible things to come.

      The silliness has always been using the term “incinerated” to describe what happened. We got back probably 80 cents on the dollar in that trade, and used that 80 cents today to buy a player who has upside very similar, give or take, to the guys who were available there, and at the very least, who has established himself as a NBA rotation player at a sought-after position. When something is incinerated, it becomes a pile of ashes that has zero value. I don’t particularly like the move at first glance but at worst it’s a fringe move that doesn’t move the needle much. And there is as much chance, if not more, that Reddish becomes a valuable rotation player for the Knicks than any of the guys we would likely have selected at #19.

      In essense, Knox was traded for a likely 50-60 second round pick, which is as much as he is worth. Solomon Hill will be waived.

    125. He’ll help us now, and there is a potential player in there who I wouldn’t mind having.

      Can’t argue with the potential, but how is he going to help us now? He stinks.

    126. First professional pundits’ grades on the trade:

      Pelton (ESPN) Knicks B + Hawks B –

      Harper (Athletic): Knicks A – Hawks C +

    127. swiftandabundant:
      We upgraded talent/potential while moving a pick down from late first round to second round and we only had to ship out a player who has been a bust here and would be gone this summer anyways.

      But big picture, this wasn’t a “win now” trade. It was a youth/potential trade so regardless of whether you think Cam is going to work out or not, you gotta admit it shows thinking about the future and not chasing wins now at all costs.

      IMO, it’s 100% exactly what we should be trying to do. After that, you are just quibbling about the player and price.

      We needed a legit SF sized rotation player because Knox couldn’t do the job and RJ is really more of a SG/SF. Cam is 6′ 8″. He’s going to help us more than Knox now. But we didn’t take a step back long term. Cam is young and has way more upside than Knox. The only thing you can whine about is the pick, but you can’t simultaneously whine that we incinerated the Dallas pick (we didn’t) and complain we gave up a lot for Cam. It’s one or the other (but some people just like to whine).

      CHA was an injury riddled team last year that just needed to get healthy and get more development from the young players to make the playoffs. That pick was/is likely to get conveyed. Dallas is a very good team (if they ever get healthy) and their pick was probably going to be even worse. We more or less just pushed it out to use it on something else instead of taking someone in the draft we didn’t like. It turned into Cam who they obviously DO like.

    128. ***how is it possible that ptmilo can provide such great, detailed analysis of how Cam Reddish played against the orlando magic if he’s not a robot? He even knows that Cam worked on his pouting with his trainers!! You’re giving it away now.***

      Reddish could improve that aspect of his game faster if he studied directly with the Estonian charades champion.

    129. I suppose one could ask: would it feel any worse if we traded either JJ, KJ, or IJ for Cam Reddish?

      Or alternatively: Would one of those guys have gotten this deal done?

    130. Tommy Beer
      @TommyBeer
      Knicks entered the 2021 draft with the Knicks the 19th, 21st and 32nd picks.

      They managed to turn those three picks into:

      Cam Reddish,
      Quentin Grimes,
      Roku Jokubaitis and,
      Deuce McBride.

      That’s impressive. Quality front-office work by Leon Rose and company.

    131. Let’s look at this clearly. Reddish and Hill (out for the year) for Knox. I see this as a move made for the sake of making a move. Reddish will get a chance here. Knox there. In the end, we gave up nothing and got nothing.

    132. GoNyGoNYGo:
      Let’s look at this clearly.Reddish and Hill (out for the year) for Knox.I see this as a move made for the sake of making a move. Reddish will get a chance here. Knox there. In the end, we gave up nothing and got nothing.

      In that case we have up a 1st rd pick (or 2 seconds) for one 2nd rd pick. Then it was a bad trade.

      We bought a 1.5 yr window to see if a young player can live up to his potential and sold a 4 year window on a young player.

    133. Deeefense!!: IMO, it’s 100% exactly what we should be trying to do.

      Exactly this. This is exactly the type of trade this team should be making at this point in their … cough … rebuild.

    134. I figure I’ll have a hard time rooting for Reddish, but I don’t completely dislike this deal. I’m worried about how Thibs will rejigger the rotation, though, because I was loving me some Grimes and I think Reddish will eat all his minutes while shooting worse and defending, at the very best, at the same level. I also think that leaguewide Reddish has more value than Charlotte’s Schroedinger’s pick and Knox, so that’s a (admittedly very small) victory for our FO.

    135. The silliness has always been using the term “incinerated” to describe what happened.

      80 cents on the dollar really doesn’t do it justice when you’re talking about a guaranteed 19th pick that could very well become two second round picks, and that transformation is entirely out of our hands.

      If we said “got shitty value for” instead of “incinerated,” would you be much more at peace with the consensus?

      I suppose one could ask: would it feel any worse if we traded either JJ, KJ, or IJ for Cam Reddish?

      Well since the Hawks drafted Jalen Johnson, I would imagine they like him, and so yeah, he probably gets the deal done.

      We bought a 1.5 yr window to see if a young player can live up to his potential and sold a 4 year window on a young player.

      This is what it comes down to at the end of the day, and why I come out anti-trade by a little bit.

      It’s possible I’d be slightly pro-trade if the pick just fell into our lap somehow, but knowing who was available I feel fairly confident that 4 years of at least one of them will produce more value than 1.5 years of Reddish.

      I will be happy to be wrong if Reddish blows up and while I’m skeptical, I don’t think it’s out of the question. If I’m wrong, I’ll give full credit to the front office and won’t write it off as bad process, good results.

    136. I gotta say, I’m a sucker for potential, and this acquisition has excited me. It’s always nice to have a young player with a high ceiling to root for.

      I believe he will start. We’re PG-less anyway. Might as well play him instead of Burks and put the ball more in RJ’s hands.

    137. I like the data point of knowing that if the Knicks ever play important playoff games it looks for all the world like he’s not going to wilt or get scared or shrink or hide or disappear. He blew up in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals.

      Is that worth 2.5 years of control? I’ll leave that one to others.

    138. cgreene:
      Woj Bomb:
      We get Cam for a protected first

      OMG, this is a trade I actually proposed a day or two ago. I proposed Knox and a pick to Atlanta for Reddish. The actual pick is better than I expected but we also got Hill and a second round pick back. From ESPN:

      The Knicks are sending forward Kevin Knox II and a 2022 first-round draft pick via the Charlotte Hornets to the Hawks for Reddish, Solomon Hill and a 2025 second-round pick, sources said.

    139. I gotta say, I’m a sucker for potential, and this acquisition has excited me. It’s always nice to have a young player with a high ceiling to root for.

      Yeah, from a ruthlessly asset oriented standpoint I’m slightly against it but I will also admit I am now more excited to watch the Knicks than I was before. You could do worse than taking on young, former high pedigree guys for low-ish prices (within reason of course, this does not apply to the likes of Kevin Knox).

    140. thenoblefacehumper: 80 cents on the dollar really doesn’t do it justice when you’re talking about a guaranteed 19th pick that could very well become two second round picks, and that transformation is entirely out of our hands.

      I think it’s a balls-on accurate description of the devaluation, but reasonable opinions can vary. The larger point is that we’re in agreement that a devaluation took place. We just disagree aboout the implications. I think today suggests that the pick stlll had roughly the same value as a future likely #19 pick, which is likely what it would take to acquire Reddish.

      Now we can also quibble about whether was worth using that CHA pick to acquire Reddish. I would argue that we got $1.20 of value for that heavily protected pick, as I don’t think the Hawks would have traded Cam straight up for #19 on draft day, and Cam has probably gained value (perception-wise) thus far this season by improving his 3pt% on high volume. But that doesn’t make it a good trade, because I think both Cam, the original #19, and the devalued protected CHA picks all have simlar upside/downside profiles.

      So overall, my take is that the transactions were ultimately a wash, and possibly a bit better than that if you think of Knox as a negative asset and attribute the 2nd round throw-in to Reddish not being worth that first rounder without sweetener.

    141. We just couldn’t compete against the better teams being undersized at SF and with RJ having to carry the defensive load there. For that reason alone I like the trade.

    142. I like the trade. We really needed a true sf. Cam can replace some of what we lost in Bullock. It seems like this sets the team up for one more deal. Turner for Fournier and Noel, anyone?

    143. Harrison Barnes seems like a decent comp for Reddish. A poor man’s Harrison Barnes actually.

      In one way he’s a reasonably good fit here, because he’s the KIND of player we need– he’s an athletic wing that can at least theoretically play decent defense.

      In another way he’s not such a great fit, because he really struggles to get easy baskets. He has a poor FG% from 2PT largely because he’s not a very good finisher, and that has been the book on him since Duke.

      Reddish seems tempting because he seems like the kind of player who can do a little bit of everything, but his ceiling looks very limited to me.

    144. You could do worse than taking on young, former high pedigree guys for low-ish prices

      Definitely from a big-picture, strategic perspective this is significantly better than a lot of what I was worried we might be up to this deadline. This is still a move that’s more about the long-term than this year’s team which suggests the front office is still being patient and realistic about where we’re at.

    145. I will also say there’s some marginal benefit to having Cam as PF/wing insurance over Knox during covid.

      Also, with Burks in the starting lineup & Rose sidelined, the bench can use more shot creation. Cam isn’t a great option with a .537 TS% but that’s the same TS% as IQ our current bench creator. Hopefully they can find some extra efficiency playing off one another.

    146. New York will need to release Ryan Arcidiacono early from his 10-Day (was expiring 1/15) to open up a roster spot to take back Solomon Hill.

      Goodbye Arcidiacono, OAKAAK. I have to say Arcidiacono is flawless as a Knick, i can’t remember a single thing he done wrong. :D

    147. Is it me or are KnickerBloggers here burying the lead? This trade says to me that the Knicks are/have become young Rowan’s team.

    148. cybersoze: Goodbye Arcidiacono, OAKAAK. I have to say Arcidiacono is flawless as a Knick, i can’t remember a single thing he done wrong. :D

      Clyde demanded it. His name was the thing that he done wrong.

    149. Is it me or are KnickerBloggers here burying the lead? This trade says to me that the Knicks are/have become young Rowan’s team.

      i know right, it only took like 4 months to loosen up that death grip julius’ had on the ball and team…

    150. I thought the Charlotte pick had value and I am disappointed that we traded it for Cam Reddish. I guess the steal percentages aren’t bad, but the rest is meh. Worse yet, he looks the part, so he will get plenty of minutes with his mediocre ways. Last year, Atlanta improved a lot when he got injured.

      I guess that since he looks the part, we might be able to trade him subsequently. Or maybe he gets it after 4 or 5 years, like Wiggins, but I don’t like it.

    151. The downside here is that we’re in pole position to pay $100M for four more years of Cam Reddish because he looks like an NBA basketball player.

    152. Like Farfa said if Rdsh takes minutes from Grms because of name recognition or because rj likes him it’s a bad trade.

    153. Put me down for a Myles Turner trade BTW. Word is that Indiana was interested in trading for Cam. Is this part of a potential trade package for the bigman? I don’t know. Just throwing it out there.

    154. Welcome back, Farfa. Reddish brought you back to KB, so that should be counted as a plus.

    155. I dont think this trade was neccasarily about keeping RJ happy or making Zion like us more. We had a need for 3/4 wing and he fits the bill for the most part. He still isnt good but theres some potential.

    156. So many people so excited for a guy whose last good season was 4 years ago when he was still in high school.

      Ingmarrrr: Like Farfa said if Rdsh takes minutes from Grms because of name recognition or because rj likes him it’s a bad trade.

      What do you have against vowels?

    157. vincoug: So many people so excited for a guy whose last good season was 4 years ago when he was still in high school.

      tall long = upside

      some people thought he’d be better than Zion because wingspan

    158. Reddish is a really good FT shooter, he might be a good 3 point shooter, he’s quite bad at the rim (29th percentile) and insanely bad from mid range for a tall guy who can shoot (5th percentile). He’s a shit playmaker too, so there’s no reason to let him do anything but shoot 3s and occasionally get to the rim. Offensively he’s like a mini-porzingis.

    159. So many people so excited for a guy whose last good season was 4 years ago when he was still in high school.

      I took a look at social media and reddit etc and there are a ton of Knicks fans out there who have no idea Cam Reddish has sucked so far in the NBA.

    160. Could we have traded for a better player (now and long term) using only Knox (great trade value… cof, cof) and the CHA pick? If we did nothing, would the pick be great? There’s a decent chance CHA keeps the good play and the pick conveys this coming draft. A draft that is being labeled as the worst since the infamous 2013 Draft and it’s number 1 pick (Bennett). I know, i know… we could be the team that find the Giannis of the draft, but we have to admit that if a draft is globally bad, the chances to come away with a useful player are slim to none.
      Depending on how you answer these questions, you like the trade or not. I think it’d be hard to get back better value than Reddish with those assets and i think the pick won’t warrant a player with the same potential as Reddish. So i like the trade, although it brings some problems i would like to see solved, namely Grimes probably losing his place in the rotation. Well, this was already a possibility once Kemba is healthy again.

    161. this is (hopefully) the first in a series or at least the precursor to a bigger move to get the roster mix in better shape to lift us out of the 9-10 (or even better…the 7-10 grouping)…can’t see where this is the only adjustment (other than kemba likely packing his bags)…

    162. The only real good outcome of this trade is a longshot: that Cam improves enough to be worthy of an extension, then signs an extension, then continues to play like a $20M player. That seems… farfetched.

      The more likely scenarios are:
      1. Cam doesn’t really play all that much better, and doesn’t get extended, so we traded a #19 overall pick for 1.5 years of essentially nothing, or

      2. Cam doesn’t really play all that much better, and gets extended anyway, then proceeds to provide poor value on his extended contract

      Reddish is a mediocre enough player that normal age-based progression isn’t going to get him to the point where he’s really worth that extension. He’s going to need to make a leap. I don’t really see it.

    163. DRed: I took a look at social media and reddit etc and there are a ton of Knicks fans out there who have no idea Cam Reddish has sucked so far in the NBA.

      Cam and RJ are essentially the same guy. both have pretty much sucked overall to this point, yet both have shown flashes and have undetermined upside, both have a floor of NBA rotation player. RJ is younger, stronger and can rebound and has some excuses for underperforming this season, Cam ia longer, moves and shoots more fluidly, makes FTs and gets steals but has all kinds of consistency and mental lapses on both ends. Neither guy is a good finisher, nor has great ball skills. If you squint you can see star upside in both, but it’s that kind of squinting that gets guys overpaid.

      I think it’s very up in the air on who will have a better career. I’d reluctantly bet on RJ, but we essentially got Cam for a 19th pick so if he doesn’t improve it’s no biggie compared to squandering a rare #3 pick. There’s way more anxiety about RJ.

      It will be really interesting to see how this plays out.

    164. Leon didn’t extend Mitch and he’s going to be a UFA. Why would he extend Reddish, if he plays poorly, given that in his case he’ll be a RFA? We can do a sign and trade if we don’t want him, or even trade him between now and the 2023 summer. We just need that he keeps the potential intact (meaning one of 29 GMs to believe in it) for him to be a more valuable asset than Knox and the CHA pick.
      And there’s always the chance that he fulfills the potential while playing with us, that’s why you have young players on the roster, to have the chance to see some of them realizing their potential.

    165. I don’t see potential in Cam beyond a 3&D player. Maybe he adds a little shot creation, but he should never be a top-3 offensive option.

      RJ, and I’ve been very negative about RJ, at least has the upside to be an all-star or borderline all-star. I can see why people think RJ will be a star.

      I don’t see that in Reddish at all. He’s a scratch off ticket to be a role player.

    166. Why not? It just cost Kevin Knox and a pile of ashes!

      Reddish is sort of a flyer, but maybe being with his Duke bud will light a fire under him. It’ll be interesting to watch what follows from this trade, either another trade or just watching Reddish in the rotation.

    167. This front office seems to really have a priority to have a complete team and is filling what it sees as a hole. It’s a lot different from what some GMs do (who focus more on names that don’t fit well) but I like it. When the team clicks, like yesterday against Dallas, it’s just such a pleasure to watch.

    168. Early Bird: GoNyGoNYGo:
      Let’s look at this clearly.Reddish and Hill (out for the year) for Knox.I see this as a move made for the sake of making a move. Reddish will get a chance here. Knox there. In the end, we gave up nothing and got nothing.

      In that case we have up a 1st rd pick (or 2 seconds) for one 2nd rd pick. Then it was a bad trade.

      We bought a 1.5 yr window to see if a young player can live up to his potential and sold a 4 year window on a young player.

      Kinda what I was saying. I don’t like it but not enough to really care about it. Fringe player for fringe player and a slightly worse draft choice. Meh.

    169. Geo-fied:
      well jowles, it seems i’ve raised your sweet liv soprano with superbly simple father mcguire…whatcha gonna do about that?

      I have no idea who that is!!!!!

    170. I love this move!

      We brought in a rookie scale player and reunified him with rj, with size and defense we just filled two holes. Chemistry and defense.

    171. mase:
      I love this move!

      We brought in a rookie scale player and reunified him with rj, with size and defensewe just filled two holes. Chemistry and defense.

      Did you watch them at Duke? They definitely did not have chemistry. And Reddish’s good defense is way more theoretical than actual.

    172. From the Ringer breakdown of the trade:

      After making 57 starts as a rookie for a terrible team under David Fizdale, Knox largely receded from view; of the 312 players who have played at least 2,500 minutes in the NBA since the Knicks drafted him ninth in 2018, Knox ranks 311th in effective field goal percentage. (Dead last on that list? Fellow former Knick lottery pick Frank Ntilikina. Yeesh.)

    173. for this specific move, I’m gonna firmly be on team optimist when it comes to Cam. I love the idea of him, and I’m excited to watch him try to become the ideal version. and this is a solid return for that shitty charlotte pick.

      but the series of moves that got us here doesn’t make me feel any more confident about Leon.

    174. DRed: I took a look at social media and reddit etc and there are a ton of Knicks fans out there who have no idea Cam Reddish has sucked so far in the NBA.

      It isn’t amazing that people don’t know what Cam Reddish is. I expect ignorance and stupidity from much of the fan base.

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