Knicks Morning News (2021.12.09)

  • Big Mis-Steak! Knicks’ Evan Fournier drained by terrible Texas steak – Empire Sports Media
    [empiresportsmedia.com] — Thursday, December 9, 2021 7:01:01 AM

    Big Mis-Steak! Knicks’ Evan Fournier drained by terrible Texas steak  Empire Sports Media

  • #SportsReport: Pacers best Knicks; Rockets defeat Nets – WAMC
    [www.wamc.org] — Thursday, December 9, 2021 6:18:00 AM

    #SportsReport: Pacers best Knicks; Rockets defeat Nets  WAMC

  • Toronto hosts New York in conference showdown – Raleigh News & Observer
    [www.newsobserver.com] — Thursday, December 9, 2021 3:23:26 AM

    Toronto hosts New York in conference showdown  Raleigh News & Observer

  • Obi Toppin’s impressive dunk couldn’t even inspire woeful Knicks – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Wednesday, December 8, 2021 11:55:00 PM

    Obi Toppin’s impressive dunk couldn’t even inspire woeful Knicks  New York Post

  • Opinion: The New York Knicks Should Trade For This Star Guard To Save Their Season – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Wednesday, December 8, 2021 8:42:11 PM

    Opinion: The New York Knicks Should Trade For This Star Guard To Save Their Season  Sports IllustratedA potential Pacers fire sale would be of interest to Knicks  New York Post Pacers players the Knicks could ponder before trade deadline  New York Daily NewsKnicks Rumors: Myles Turner potentially available via trade  Daily KnicksPacers defeat Knicks as trade talks surround them  The Indianapolis StarView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Gibson steps into Knicks’ starting lineup for ailing Noel – Newsday
    [www.newsday.com] — Wednesday, December 8, 2021 6:59:18 PM

    Gibson steps into Knicks’ starting lineup for ailing Noel  Newsday

  • Tom Thibodeau Was Caught On The Microphone Saying Some Not So Nice Words To The Refs – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Wednesday, December 8, 2021 4:41:32 PM

    Tom Thibodeau Was Caught On The Microphone Saying Some Not So Nice Words To The Refs  Sports Illustrated

  • Opinion: The New York Knicks Should Trade For This Star Guard To Save Their Season – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Wednesday, December 8, 2021 4:39:59 PM

    Opinion: The New York Knicks Should Trade For This Star Guard To Save Their Season  Sports Illustrated

  • 5 New York Knicks point guard trade targets – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Wednesday, December 8, 2021 3:15:12 PM

    5 New York Knicks point guard trade targets  Posting and Toasting

  • Knicks Go Favored to Make History in Pegasus World Cup – America’s Best Racing
    [www.americasbestracing.net] — Wednesday, December 8, 2021 2:45:16 PM

    Knicks Go Favored to Make History in Pegasus World Cup  America’s Best Racing

  • Pacers Game Tonight: Pacers vs Knicks Odds, Injury Report, and Predictions for Dec. 8 – 8 Points, 9 Seconds
    [8points9seconds.com] — Wednesday, December 8, 2021 11:47:00 AM

    Pacers Game Tonight: Pacers vs Knicks Odds, Injury Report, and Predictions for Dec. 8  8 Points, 9 SecondsObi Toppin’s Dunk Was Crazy, But The Pacers Knock Off The Knicks In Indy  Sports IllustratedNew York Knicks vs Indiana Pacers: Betting Odds and Prediction  Daily KnicksPacers vs. Knicks odds, line: 2021 NBA picks, Dec. 8 prediction from proven computer model  CBS SportsKnicks embarrassed by Pacers, 122-102  New York Daily NewsView Full Coverage on Google News

  • NBA Rumors: Knicks’ RJ Barrett Among Players Having Trouble Adjusting to New Ball – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Wednesday, December 8, 2021 10:48:54 AM

    NBA Rumors: Knicks’ RJ Barrett Among Players Having Trouble Adjusting to New Ball  Bleacher Report

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    90 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2021.12.09)”

    1. I’m starting to worry that last season we witnessed “contract year Julius”, and now with the money in the bag, we’ll get the 2019-20 version again this season and the next 3. Contract year Julius will only be back in the 2025-26 season.
      Julius extension being a bargain? Oh man, what a blunder.

    2. And now, i’m going to propose a trade that Strat will like a lot…
      …what if we call Dallas and send them Evan for Reggie and Finney-Smith? Maybe Reggie regains his mojo here, and Julius was way more confortable playing with him. Finney-Smith can help too, he’s no scrub.
      Of course this only works if Dallas values Evan highly, but i think they do, they like europeans a lot, so they can have ours.

    3. cybersoze:
      And now, i’m going to propose a trade that Strat will like a lot…
      …what if we call Dallas and send them Evan for Reggie and Finney-Smith? Maybe Reggie regains hi mojo here, and Julius was way more confortable playing with him. Finney-Smith can help also, he’s no scrub.
      Of course this only works if Dallas values Evan highly, but i think they do, they like europeans a lot, so they can have ours.

    4. might as well run it all the way back and contact Phoenix for a Plague-Kemba swap. Seriously, I think Fournier is way down the list of why this team is sitting in 11th place.

    5. BernieEarnie: Seriously, I think Fournier is way down the list of why this team is sitting in 11th place.

      I hope you’re right and he starts playing like we all thought he would. About the list, first and foremost we need a PG, but i’m not getting any ideas on how to get that done.

    6. Brandon Boston Jr. went off in Clippers’ 114-111 win over the Celtics, tallying a career-high 27 points (9-of-13 FGs, 4-of-4 FTs), two rebounds, four steals, and five 3-pointers in 25 minutes.

      What about this? :O

    7. I <3 Bullock, I loathe Fournier… though loathe is too strong of a word…

      Julius should never start his post-up / face-up from 18 feet out… he also needs to pass out of doubles right away… maybe the guards should get it back to him right away to keep the double off balance… ya know, there's nothing crisp with how we run things on offense… its all disjointed and hopeful at best… when its drive and kick, fine, when its drive and not kick, bad… when its, we ran out of stuff to do with 8 seconds left on shot clock, bad

    8. ***Brandon Boston Jr. went off in Clippers’ 114-111 win over the Celtics, tallying a career-high 27 points***

      Boston obliterates the Celtics. (A sentence I’ve always wanted to write)

    9. @ScottAgness
      Pacers have cancelled today’s practice “out of an abundance of caution due to health and safety protocols.”

      Something to keep an eye on even though the Knicks are fully vaxxed.

    10. KevinR:
      @ScottAgness
      Pacers have cancelled today’s practice “out of an abundance of caution due to health and safety protocols.”

      Something to keep an eye on even though the Knicks are fully vaxxed.

      Knicks are gonna get the bug eventually… have we had one guy in protocols yet last year or this year?!?! I cant remember any…. every day more people than ever are vaxxed yet we continue to see surges in people getting covid… luckily, they should live, given their vax status, along with their overall health… i love the vax, but i wish they would come out and (genuinely) say that its acting more like a therapeutic…

    11. I wonder what an extended Covid leave could do to this team if it hits a few core players. 10 day protocol could cost us up to 6 games and put us even deeper in lottery territory.

    12. didnt they postpone hockey game recently?…

      this is a sore subject for me as one of the few MLS fans in this world, my Philadelphia Union had to play eastern conference champs without 11 guys… 5 of which got the most minutes on the team this year… disappointing…

    13. It was interesting seeing Thibs fully call off the dogs and go full scrub-mode with still 3:30 left on the clock. I’m not sure I ever recall him doing that so early and can remember multiple instances of him refusing to pull the starters way past the point it was obviously a lost cause. I guess just a concession to the nastiness of this particular bit of back-to-back scheduling, but seemed notable to me nonetheless. Thibs seems frustrated with the team and a little bit lost for answers right now.

      All the talk has been of who we should target once trade season opens, but is there any chance we would consider being sellers at the deadline? Rose & Burks are both older guys on short term deals who could really help real contenders and it becomes more and more apparent every day that we’re further from that category than we may have hoped. Picking up a couple of extra picks while clearing time in the rotation for Grimes & McBride makes a lot of sense if we’re prepared to be realistic about where we are in the process.

    14. @ShamsCharania
      Pacers and Raptors have cancelled their practices today due to health and safety protocols and abundance of caution.

      @FredKatz
      The Knicks sandwich.

      Knicks had the Pacers yesterday and have the Raptors tomorrow in Toronto.

    15. cybersoze:
      I’m starting to worry that last season we witnessed “contract year Julius”, and now with the money in the bag, we’ll get the 2019-20 version again this season and the next 3. Contract year Julius will only be back in the 2025-26 season.
      Julius extension being a bargain? Oh man, what a blunder.

      Yeah, we had an option on him for this season and I was in favor of waiting another year to make sure last season wasn’t a fluke. Unfortunately, here we are.

    16. All the talk has been of who we should target once trade season opens, but is there any chance we would consider being sellers at the deadline? Rose & Burks are both older guys on short term deals who could really help real contenders and it becomes more and more apparent every day that we’re further from that category than we may have hoped.

      It wouldn’t be the craziest thing in the world to do a bit of both i.e. acquire someone fairly young like Turner while trading away these guys. Alas, I think we’d need to be 10 games under .500 to even consider it.

    17. I dunno. I am looking at it the opposite way. Last year was semi contract year for Julius as he just had to play well enough to make us pick up the option. If we hadn’t extended, I would put all this poor play on “I gotta get mine”. Now he doesn’t have to, but inexplicably is playing like he does.

      Let’s hope cyber is wrong otherwise Julius will be the first player to win the MIP award twice.

    18. KJG: Knicks are gonna get the bug eventually… have we had one guy in protocols yet last year or this year?!?! I cant remember any….

      Last season DRose was in covid protocols at some point, i think he was the only one.

    19. BernieEarnie: Let’s hope cyber is wrong otherwise Julius will be the first player to win the MIP award twice.

      I’m rooting hard to be wrong, but i’m running out of excuses. First i thought it was the newborn, then i thought he was playing softer to stay fresh for the playoffs, but if it’s that he needs to change because this way we won’t make the playoffs. Right now, i don’t have a clue for why he is playing the way he is.

    20. thenamestsam: All the talk has been of who we should target once trade season opens, but is there any chance we would consider being sellers at the deadline?

      If we’re still in the tail end of the play-in by end of January a front-office with a vision for the future would do exactly as you’re saying. But i think Leon will always tweak the roster and keep in win now mode, avoiding the lottery at all costs, even if that means playing in the play-in to get the privilege to be swept by Bucks or Nets.

    21. Good thing about a potential Myles trade is it could be considered both win now and later so flexible for Leon in that sense.

    22. Acquiring mid career players is not “win later”. When you suck, you are competing against other teams who suck. When those teams use their resources on players who will improve, they are playing to win later, and you, in using those same limited resources, will likely fall behind that team and end up at best mediocre.

      Like you wouldn’t say, “i’m investing in my future (AKA ‘winning later’) by buying a relatively new car instead of an old one.” At least not if there’s an option to simply not buy a car at all and invest the money.

    23. This season is a little disappointing so far, but we are what Vegas thought we are. This was not supposed to be a year of serious title contention, so there’s no need for a panic move. If a good deal presents itself great, if not, I hope Rose is patient until the summer of ’23. I believe that is what Rose & Co. are shooting for.

    24. Randle has been mostly okay this year. Certainly not worth what we’re paying for, but he’s like the 2nd or 3rd best guy among the starters. Fournier has sucked and RJ has been catastrophically bad.

    25. This season is a little disappointing so far, but we are what Vegas thought we are. This was not supposed to be a year of serious title contention, so there’s no need for a panic move. If a good deal presents itself great, if not, I hope Rose is patient until the summer of ’23. I believe that is what Rose & Co. are shooting for.

      But if they’re not going to be good this year, then what in the world was the point of locking in this squad until 2023? Brining back last year’s team and adding Fournier was not the “patient” move.

    26. Did we really lock in though?

      Rose, Burks and Noel will all be expiring contracts next season (with team options, which other teams LOVE).

      Rose and Burks I have no doubt we could trade this year for some draft capital. If Marcus Morris can net us a late first rounder, I believe Rose and Burks could too. Both have been very solid/good. Rose is arguably the best back up PG in the league. Burks is instant offense.

      Noel probably isn’t tradeable right now because of the injuries. But by this time next year he is also an expiring contract with a team option and he is solid back up big.

      None of these 3 guys are getting you a lottery pick or anything crazy like that but all 3 would help fortify the bench of a playoff team. None of them make big money and all are expiring contracts next season.

      Those 3 guys would clear up a lot of cap space if we moved them. Fournier is most likely unmovable right till at least next season. Randle is locked in for 4 years but he did just get second team all NBA and I also agree that he really hasn’t been bad. Just not as good as last year but I think a lot of that is his teammates, not him (even if he shoulders the burden more as our leader).

      So I don’t think we’re “locked in” till 2023 with this team. I think it would be quite possible to trade at least Rose and Burks right away if we wanted cap space and some draft capital. Of course, they’re not really the problems, so would we want to trade them?

    27. I don’t understand this fascination with 2023. Why is it worth waiting for?

      No reason at all. Just that’s the new year they’ve chosen as the “1. Have cap room. 2. Profit.” year.

    28. Brian Cronin: No reason at all. Just that’s the new year they’ve chosen as the “1. Have cap room. 2. Profit.” year.

      And own all the 2nd rd picks!!! Don’t forget about the 2nd rd picks!!!

    29. Fun fact from last night’s game:

      The Knicks starting “point guard “ Alec Burks had Zero assists in 30 minutes on the floor.

      I don’t think that is a viable plan long term. The never ending search for an NBA caliber starting point guard continues for our New York Knicks.

    30. Yeah, there really doesn’t seem to be a clear superstar out there that would A) want to leave their current situation and B) Not be old or ridiculously expensive.

      Unfortunately, we have to team build and develop and make FA signings and trades for vets who are good and not too expensive. It’s not an easy path. And the picks we make are most likely not going to be lottery picks or at least not high lottery picks.

      I don’t think all is lost though. For all the hand wringing we’re one game under 500 in December. Which is basically where we were last year (which was defying all predictions). Then we went on a win streak and ended the year on a high note (playoffs not included).

      But I will say as the resident optimist on the board, I would not be sad if Leon pulled the trigger and traded Rose or Burks for future draft capital if things fall apart and then let us semi tank to hopefully get a high pick.

      I don’t think we’re there yet, though.

    31. ***Like you wouldn’t say, “i’m investing in my future (AKA ‘winning later’) by buying a relatively new car instead of an old one.” At least not if there’s an option to simply not buy a car at all and invest the money.***

      Huh?

      Trading young players for better young players is a good move. No need to overthink it.

    32. OK so we know there’s no point in waiting for 2023. I think we have to improve this team now, and Myles is the best guy to target. Center has been a black hole this year, and I’m running out of patience with Mitch.

      We’ve got to move Rose into the starting lineup, too. I know the 2nd unit is dope but the starters suck and that’s kind of important.

      Rose, Burks, Barrett, Randle, and Turner is a pretty good reboot for the starting lineup. The Kemba and Fournier tandem can move to the 2nd unit with IQ and Obi. Their defensive deficiencies will be less problematic here.

    33. I know Myles Turner doesn’t take us to the next level but he’s 25 years old, he’s a good two-way player, and we’ve got lots of picks that we’re just going to squander because our front office thinks there’s only 9 guys worth drafting every year.

      Call it the Strat method, if you will. “Win the trade”, get a little better, patiently wait for the next move.

    34. Jack Bauer: The never ending search for an NBA caliber starting point guard continues for our New York Knicks.

      Check out the dude that averaged 9 assists per 36 last night. Not to mention 36 points, 9 steals, and zero turnovers (shout-out to Z-Man from last thread…).

    35. I agree if we want to make this work we have to start Rose at some point if IQ/Mcbride arent the answer right now. Burks in the starting lineup is mostly for defensive purposes he isnt a PG and Thibs needs to realize that.

    36. Starters
      Noel
      Randle
      Barrett
      Fournier
      McBride

      Second Unit
      Mitch
      Obi
      Burks
      IQ
      Rose

      With McBride’s energy and getting in people’s grills on D, he might even motivate Randle to play the right way.
      And we avoid disbanding the second team, which we all agree is already (mostly) playing the right way.

    37. Jack Bauer:
      Fun fact from last night’s game:

      The Knicks starting “point guard “ Alec Burks had Zero assists in 30 minutes on the floor.

      I don’t think that is a viable plan long term. The never ending search for an NBA caliber starting point guard continues for our New York Knicks.

      Its true, Burks misses guys all the time and he is afraid to throw lobs… When he has the ball, its mostly one-on-one… he hits all them tough shots… i wonder how to get NOT tough shots…

    38. And honestly, who gives a shit about rookie mistakes. I’ll take those any day over veterans’ mistakes. Of which we have bucketloads.

      Which clearly makes me the anti-Thibs…

    39. we should just get all the guys that typically destroy us… we can start with Turner… ashame TJ Mconnell just got hurt…

    40. I presume, DRed, you mean that in the sense that we should be cautious about trading for a guy having his best year? Or do you not want to pair Turner with Randle for some reason?

    41. I think Myles has one year left on his contract, so if we’re giving up real assets to get him I assume we’re planning on extending him. He’s making 18 million per now-do you want to give 20 million a year to a center who might not even be a good 3 point shooter? If we’re only getting him for a year and a half why would we even bother?

    42. ***I presume, DRed, you mean that in the sense that we should be cautious about trading for a guy having his best year?***

      What Dred is trying to say is that if it’s not Cole Aldrich, he’s not interested.

    43. swiftandabundant: I don’t think all is lost though. For all the hand wringing we’re one game under 500 in December. Which is basically where we were last year (which was defying all predictions). Then we went on a win streak and ended the year on a high note (playoffs not included).

      I’m in this (lonely) Optimist Camp. The problems seem about chemistry and (lack of) plan on offense. None of that was helped by the Kemba benching. Maybe the D improved, but the idea that there IS a plan took a hit. And it’s doubly awkward that Kemba is just unavailable at all (for the rest of the season?). I mean everyone played last night except him. That’s just annoying all around.

      My eye test says our “best” team offense is in transition. The young guys (plus DRose) like to run. Randle can sometimes run, but he’s a bit awkward. Obi is great obvs but, for whatever reason, he only logs 12 minutes a game. I don’t think his highlight lob helped his cause last night, and his joking about getting on SportsCenter must likely rub Thibs the wrong way. But I’d like to see more running. Maybe Covid accidentally reduces our lineup to just these guys.

      Overall, I’m not as knowledgeable as you folks, but I never see a cutter to the basket in our offense. I never see a lob (any more) in the half court. I never see a competent pick and roll. Neither Mitch nor Noel post up even with a significant mismatch. All these plays seem like foundational pieces of a (high school?) offense, so I’m not sure what’s going on except “Will our point guard beat his man and kick out to an open three?” Well, none of our point guards consistently beat their men, so … maybe re-tool a bit?

      EDIT: As heretical as it may sound, I’m open to trading Randle. Maybe getting him at a bargain due to loyalty can let us flip him into good assets …

    44. I hear you, GM. But in his career he’s been a 36% 3P shooter on over 1,000 shots. He’s 77% from the line, too. I don’t think we need him to maintain 40% from 3 to be good value. And yes, I would be happy to extend him (I assume he’d get something like the Jarrett Allen deal). I wouldn’t acquire him for 1.5 years, I’d consider him a core piece.

    45. Obi is great obvs but, for whatever reason, he only logs 12 minutes a game. I don’t think his highlight lob helped his cause last night, and his joking about getting on SportsCenter must likely rub Thibs the wrong way.

      This is something that bothers me about Thibs, actually. Guys who can do special things shouldn’t be discouraged from doing them. I think this impacts Quickley a lot, too. So many times he seems to want to take a deep 3 from Trae range, hesitates, and changes his mind. This is seemingly bc he’s afraid of his coach, who has yanked him in the past for taking such shots. But that’s a good shot in the modern NBA, and IQ is good at making them.

    46. So 36% from 3 is considered the baseline for a “good” 3 point shooter. But question to ponder. Does a center have to shoot above that to be a legitimately good 3 point shooter for his position? I know the stretch 5 is now what everyone wants but Centers in general still aren’t shooting 3’s as much as the other positions and not every center, not even ever good center, in the league stretches the floor with 3 point shooting. So if Myles shoots 35 or 36 percent consistently, doesn’t that make him a pretty good 3 point shooter for a center and a legitimate stretch 5?

      I just see people dismissing him cause he “only” shoots 36 percent. That’s league average for every position though, right? What is the league average for 3 point shooters for Center. To me that is the more important question.

    47. swiftandabundant: I just see people dismissing him cause he “only” shoots 36 percent. That’s league average for every position though, right? What is the league average for 3 point shooters for Center. To me that is the more important question.

      Centers don’t get more points for making a basket.

    48. I suppose the big question is if 36% is enough to space the floor for guys like Julius to get into the paint more. I’d guess teams will still dare Myles to shoot that and prioritize rim protection. If hes actually a near 40% 3pt shooter on good volume thats an actual good spacer for a Center.

    49. A guard shooting 36% is also probably taking some of those 3s off the dribble. Turner hasn’t attempted an unassisted 3 in 4 years. Someone still has to create the shots and that’s not exactly what we’re good at as currently constructed. On the other hand though, we are the worst team in the NBA at shooting inside the restricted area, which seems hard to believe with Obi & Mitch on the team. So while that might be a function of having a bunch of bad finishers (RJ, Kemba) it also might be down to a crowded rim area.

    50. Teams will do that, KevinR. They still leave Vucevic open, and Lopez, and Turner now. But that’s good!

      If we can change 4 to 5 shots a game from a low percentage shot we took because we were playing 4-on-5 to an open Turner 3, that’s a big advantage.

      As for the question of whether or not 36% is effective at stretching the floor, it has been based on recent history. Lopez, Vucevic, plus Serge Ibaka, all average less than Turner’s 36%; and they are all deemed to be effective at stretching the floor.

      So if he reverts to his career average, I think it’s a good deal. If he has seasons where he hits 40%, then it’s a massively good deal. That’s why I’d make it, not because I expect 40% year after year.

    51. I agree Hubert and its worth the risk betting on him maintaining the current production which you mentioned would be substantial. Turner is a good player entering his prime who fits almost perfectly with our core players. Also with the Charlotte pick possibly conveying this year this would be decant haul for Leon who I’m sure will want to put the pick to work soon.

    52. Two of us wearing raincoats
      You and me chasing paper
      Getting nowhere
      On our way back home
      We’re on our way home
      We’re on our way home
      We’re going home

      today’s “stuck” tune…

      yeah man, mark me down for wanting to give deuce a try at starting point guard…i don’t think it’ll actually happen until after the new year sometime, who knows if before or after the trade deadline (february 10)…

    53. Back from my detour on stats.NBA.com…

      Here are the percentage of shots Turner took without a defender within 6 feet of him:

      this season: 36.2% of his shots have been contested
      last season and the season before: 25% of his shots were contested

    54. Centers don’t get more points for making a basket.

      OK, jackass. My question is obviously in the context of the idea of a “stretch 5.”

      Does a center have to shoot better than 36 percent from 3 like a guard does in order to “stretch” the defense.

    55. And what did Portis shoot from 3 when he played for us?

      Little different when your teammates are Giannis, Jrue, Middleton than when they’re Elf and 2019 RJ and Randle.

    56. What would we be willing to give up for Turner?

      I don’t think they are going to be that interested in Mitch. If they don’t like the Turner/Sabonis tandem I doubt they are going to like Mitch/Sabonis either.

    57. Mitch, Knox, Kemba, Cha 1st and a few second rounders? Maybe Indy wants one of the rookies back as well

    58. Why do people think Mitch has value? He has half a year left on his deal and the team trading for him has no advantage over any other team when it comes time to sign him.

      And between Kemba and Knox, it’s hard to say if either would be considered a positive in a deal. At least Knox is an expiring.

    59. What would we be willing to give up for Turner?

      Yeah, the Turner talk is weird, because I don’t think anyone here seriously wants to give up what it would cost to get him. They’re not dumping the guy, they’re putting him out there for the highest bidder and other teams will want him, too.

    60. Hubert:
      Jesus, Bobby Portis hit 47% of his 157 3PA’s last year.

      He was hated here because he was expensive. He was one of our best three point shooters nonetheless.

    61. I liked Portis when he was in NY. I obviously have an affinity for defense first, energy, role players. You aren’t going to have a very good team with 5 guys like that, but I think their value to winning tends to be underrated because the focus is so heavily on scoring. You need that #1 and #2 option, but they need help. Quality help wins a lot of extra games.

    62. Bobby Portis played for the Bucks last year and re-signed with them for an additional two seasons (this year and next). The total value of those three years are less than he got paid in his one Knick season. So, yeah, that was a problem. 8th man Bobby Portis? He’s fine. $14 million a year everyday center Bobby Portis? Not so good.

    63. Brian Cronin: Yeah, the Turner talk is weird, because I don’t think anyone here seriously wants to give up what it would cost to get him. They’re not dumping the guy, they’re putting him out there for the highest bidder and other teams will want him, too.

      True Brian but I think most other teams would feel the same about Myles. Dont really see teams blowing our package out of the water for a guy with a year and a half left on his deal.

      Warriors if they want to trade Wiseman is probably the best package I could see happening.

    64. Since when did Portis became a good defender? Our problem with him, outside the insane contract, was that he was awful at defense. He has had exactly zero seasons with a positive DBPM.

    65. About Turner, i’m in for making a trade for him. I still maintain that IND will only get a 1RP and a young player, at best, but i guess we have to wait and see who’s right on this.

    66. And of course, if we trade Mitch to IND, he’ll have to agree to sign the extension. We can extend and trade him. Please correct me if i’m wrong, Noble.

    67. The Portis signing was the year we basically overpaid for a bunch of mercenaries. He obviously wasn’t worth 14m, but that’s how we talked him (and others) into playing for a garbage team. Paying him 14m again wasn’t a good option, but you can sometimes get those guys back cheaply. We let him walk. It’s not like I think that was a terrible move, but imo he’s a good role player.

    68. “Since when did Portis became a good defender?”

      He plays a lot of C and can’t protect the rim, but I view him as more of a PF that is playing C.

    69. You guys wouldn’t trade RJ Barrett (+ Knox for salary filler) for Myles Turner, if Indiana proposed it?

    70. I would love to get Turner, but I don’t think he is really available unless we are willing to really overpay for him. I’m thinking that Indiana team is going to come on strong and all that “blow it up talk” is going to go away.

    71. I am not ready to give up Barrett, IQ, or Toppin for Turner so I think that kind of makes it a bit of a moot point. Maybe if we gave up two 1sts we could get him for Kemba + Knox + Burks/Noel but I don’t know if that’s enough and I don’t know if I want to give up 2 1sts unless it’s the Charlotte and Dallas picks and that is almost surely not enough.

      I’ve been saying this since last year but I still think our best move forward is moving Randle. His mediocre play and Toppin’s improvement make the move even more obvious. Maybe we could do something like Fox for Randle. They could use a PF and we need a PG. Also, both players are having down years.

    72. we could just be patient and hope Mitch plays his way into shape, doesn’t get reinjured, and starts to look like the Mitch we all knew and loved. It’s just that I’m starting to think it might not happen.

    73. If you’re gonna propose a trade, realize that the only times it’s justifiable to win the bidding war are…

      1. If the player is undervalued by the rest of the league… In this case you’re betting that you’re smarter than everyone else.
      2. If the player fits the situation your team is in better than he fits any other team.

      If #2 isn’t true, then there are other teams that would benefit more from making the trade and will offer more than we can justify paying. Sure, sometimes those teams aren’t bright enough to see that, but that’s just one of many wrinkles that collectively suggest what we all know: that reality is not as simple as theory.

      I can buy the #1 argument a little bit about Turner. In general, defensive role players are most undervalued because their value goes up the more star talent you have. I don’t hear people making that argument though, and I’m not gonna say I’m smart or informed enough that I’d argue the Knicks should trade for Myles especially when the bottom line is we can sign him as an FA if we really like his Kool Aid that much.

      As far as #2 goes, there’s just no way you can make that argument… a veteran player on a short contract that will make him a UFA… the teams that will be most motivated to acquire him are a lot more competitive than the Knicks. I guess there are people here who still see the sheen of last year on this team, but I don’t. I would be more of a believer that continuing to move the furniture around with veteran players made sense if we were getting more from young players, but the reality is this team is still very dependent on older players. Most of hte young guys are either playing badly or not at all especially in comparison to whatever you might imagine when you hear the description “rising young team”.

    74. I haven’t given up on Mitch at all. Hopefully his struggles this year will allow us to bring him back at a very reasonable rate.

    75. ***If you’re gonna propose a trade, realize that the only times it’s justifiable to win the bidding war are… 1. If the player is undervalued by the rest of the league… In this case you’re betting that you’re smarter than everyone else. 2. If the player fits the situation your team is in better than he fits any other team.***

      I made latkes for my family tonight, and they enjoyed them, so I’m going to go easy on your post. But I will say this: I’m not a fan of the MFC trade doctrine. There are many reasons to trade players beyond the proscribed binary. Basketball is a game, and games should be fun. Autoerotic arm-chair GMing aside, the general approach is for guys who root for the Don Johnson character in Tin Cup.

    76. Griz’ beat the Lakers. Spurs beat Nuggets. Rockets win 7 in a row. I like the more balanced and less predictable NBA.

    77. How’s this for a hot take.

      The Knicks should do….nothing. Unless they want to do a Knox + 2nd round pick for a team that has another Derrick Rose type situation (older vet who is good but on a shitty team).

      Stay the course. Resign Mitch even if he muddles through this season. Keep Randle. Don’t move ANYONE. Make our draft picks in the summer and use whatever exceptions we have to shore up the team.

      Be patient. Let the fans froth at the mouth if we’re just a 500 team or even a little worse and miss the playoffs.

      Run it back next year with minor tweaks. Trust that Mitch, RJ, IQ, Obi, Grimes, McBride…will all get better.

      Let the team learn how to play together and show them you have faith in them by not trading ANYONE.

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