Knicks Morning News (2021.11.19)

  • Would Knicks Trade Center Mitchell Robinson for Mavs’ Maxi Kleber? – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Friday, November 19, 2021 7:14:31 AM

    Would Knicks Trade Center Mitchell Robinson for Mavs’ Maxi Kleber?  Sports Illustrated

  • Houston takes on New York on 13-game losing streak – Beloit Daily News
    [www.beloitdailynews.com] — Friday, November 19, 2021 3:42:24 AM

    Houston takes on New York on 13-game losing streak  Beloit Daily News

  • You Won’t Believe Who The 8th Highest Paid Player On The New York Knicks Is – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 10:03:02 PM

    You Won’t Believe Who The 8th Highest Paid Player On The New York Knicks Is  Sports IllustratedKnicks need to make three changes to turn season around  New York PostClosing lineups in focus as Knicks adjust to new offensive scheme  Yahoo SportsKnicks are staring down the barrel of a serious fluidity problem  Empire Sports MediaJulius Randle is the Knicks’ biggest problem right now  Posting and ToastingView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Caesars Sportsbook Signs New York Sports Betting Partnership With Madison Square Garden – Sports Betting Dime
    [www.sportsbettingdime.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 4:37:00 PM

    Caesars Sportsbook Signs New York Sports Betting Partnership With Madison Square Garden  Sports Betting Dime

  • NBA Power Rankings: Warriors hold off streaking Suns for No. 1; Knicks, Lakers fall; Hornets make big jump – CBSSports.com
    [www.cbssports.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 3:50:00 PM

    NBA Power Rankings: Warriors hold off streaking Suns for No. 1; Knicks, Lakers fall; Hornets make big jump  CBSSports.com

  • From the archives (Oct. 1993): Hot Shot: New York Knicks player John Starks heats up the court – tulsapeople.com
    [www.tulsapeople.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 1:53:00 PM

    From the archives (Oct. 1993): Hot Shot: New York Knicks player John Starks heats up the court  tulsapeople.com

  • Early-season NBA questions: Are Stephen Curry’s Warriors in a time machine? What’s with the Knicks’ backcourt? – CBSSports.com
    [www.cbssports.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 1:21:00 PM

    Early-season NBA questions: Are Stephen Curry’s Warriors in a time machine? What’s with the Knicks’ backcourt?  CBSSports.com

  • 2021-2022 Knicks T-SHIRT CANON TRIVIA CHALLENGE Rules – MSG Networks
    [www.msgnetworks.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 12:51:47 PM

    2021-2022 Knicks T-SHIRT CANON TRIVIA CHALLENGE Rules  MSG Networks

  • Selena Gomez and Cara Delevingne have cute kiss cam moment at Knicks game – Page Six
    [pagesix.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 10:53:00 AM

    Selena Gomez and Cara Delevingne have cute kiss cam moment at Knicks game  Page Six

  • You Won’t Believe Who The 8th Highest Paid Player On The New York Knicks Is – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 10:02:59 AM

    You Won’t Believe Who The 8th Highest Paid Player On The New York Knicks Is  Sports IllustratedKnicks are staring down the barrel of a serious fluidity problem  Empire Sports MediaKnicks need to make three changes to turn season around  New York PostJulius Randle is the Knicks’ biggest problem right now  Posting and Toasting3 Reasons the New York Knicks are going to be just fine  Daily KnicksView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Here’s What Cole Anthony Tweeted After The Magic Beat The Knicks – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 10:02:36 AM

    Here’s What Cole Anthony Tweeted After The Magic Beat The Knicks  Sports IllustratedKnicks fold down the stretch in ugly loss to lowly Magic  New York PostKnicks takeaways from Wednesday’s 104-98 loss to Magic, including disappointing final minutes  yahoo.comNY Knicks: Has Immanuel Quickley played himself into a permanent role?  Daily KnicksTom Thibodeau on Knicks’ Lackluster Performance vs. Magic: ‘That’s On Me’  Bleacher ReportView Full Coverage on Google News

  • This Knicks-Pistons Trade Features Jerami Grant To New York – NBA Analysis Network
    [www.nbaanalysis.net] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 10:00:45 AM

    This Knicks-Pistons Trade Features Jerami Grant To New York  NBA Analysis Network

  • Why isn’t Obi Toppin getting more minutes? – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 8:20:00 AM

    Why isn’t Obi Toppin getting more minutes?  New York Post

  • Caesars Partners With Knicks, Rangers, And Madison Square Garden – Sports Handle
    [sportshandle.com] — Thursday, November 18, 2021 8:08:02 AM

    Caesars Partners With Knicks, Rangers, And Madison Square Garden  Sports Handle

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    81 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2021.11.19)”

    1. It’s getting close to December, and I think it’s time to start worrying about Julius. Not to say that he’s lost his swagger or not to trust the combination of him, the vets, and the coaches to figure it out- but he has alot more to process than he’s ever had.

      Personally, he’s got another baby at home. Last season was his first season of actually being the star player since high school. Back then he didn’t have alot to process as far as being THE playmaker and scorer. He made his green light count last season and grew because of it.

      This season- he’s still the best player, but now he has guys who can share the heavy lifting. So he’s stuck between being the star he’s become and finding his spots on the floor without needing to be the primary playmaker. So he’s way out of rhythm. This is a totally new world for Jules. His rise to stardom came suddenly for him as a Knick, and now he doesn’t have to control everything after succeeding at it for the first time in his career. That’s a hell of an adjustment he’s trying to make.

      It’s imperative that we get Kemba and Fournier into the flow, so Julius needs to adjust to setting up more in his spots and trusting the ball to come to him. While Fournier and Kemba can score- they are not known ball hogs, and Julius has got to learn that. Hopefully with the time off between games they’ve focused more on that to speed the process up. I trust that Julius can adjust and be just as good as he was last season, if not better. But we’re coming up on the point where it needs to happen faster. I’ll repeat this- he’s got alot on his plate to work through because things have changed so rapidly for him. But while he works it out..it is beginning to look worse than I thought it would.

      Maybe it’s time to add some wrinkles in the offense to help him out

    2. I think Burks and/or Rose switching out for Kemba/Fournier is the best way to shake things up a bit. Adds some more size/defense/athleticism to the starting unit. Kemba can focus on torching second units and hope Fournier gets his confidence back.

      I forgot Julius had another kid and maybe hes being more hands on with the child care but who knows.

    3. ***strat can certainly take a W on the points above.***

      Did you know that in 2019, Emmanuel Mudiay had a 3 game stretch where he made 14 out of the 18 shots that he took for a Jazz team that was 11-5? Do you think there was a Nuggetsblogger giving daily updates during that streak, saying “I told you so”, and claiming “salt in the wound”? And should Nugget fans have lay down their annoyance and gone, “even though he doesn’t play for us anymore, and was drafted too young, and was drafted too high, you were so right to annoy us everyday about Mudiay because he has officially become not terrible, and you deserve to be recognized for spending 20 minutes a day for four and a half years being right that Emmanuel Mudiay is not completely worthless.” (Meanwhile, Mudiay moves to Lithuania 6 months later…)

    4. Mudiay isn’t a fair comparison. He’s not a defender like Frank is. He was expected to score and not just for a three game streak. Frank’s stats so far this season are pretty good (for a role player) and it’s not because he’s gone on some sort of a hot streak. I looked him up on CARMELO and his closest comp is Sean Livingston. That’s a useful player. Of course the season is early and he could regress or get injured. But the trend so far is good and, as Z-man pointed out, pointing in the direction Strat suggested.

    5. Z-man in the previous thread:

      “…Whether we win 35 or 50 games this season doesn’t really matter that much, as this is a clearly transitional period and we’re far from a finished product…”

      While I agree with the overall sentiment of your post, if the Knicks win 35 games this year it really would matter. Assuming the cause wasn’t injuries, it matters in missing the play-offs, Julius big-time regression, E is right about Thibs, and most importantly the blow to our collective egos (of the 150 win total votes cast, zero voted for less than 36)

    6. I think we live in a world where knee jerk reactions are way too common. I’m not saying The Knicks should do nothing if they still flounder but I think some of this stuff can take longer to figure out than we laymen realize.

      I mean, we could underperform this year, bring the entire team back next year and suddenly win 50 or more games next year just because the team has more time playing together and is more motivated and figures shit out in the off season. Or we could make one adjustment to the rotation and everything suddenly clicks. The difference between a bad team, an average team and a good team in the NBA is not as wide as people think it is and the difference can sometimes just be giving people time.

      I mean last year we brought back basically the entire same team except for Obi and IQ. But we had a new coaching staff and players like Randle had an extended off season to really work on their game. The team was better than expected but still only a 500 or a little below and then one small trade for Derrick Rose made all the difference.

      So I think the biggest take away for me is to not panic. Maybe Kemba isn’t going to work out. But we know Fournier is a better player than what he is showing us. RJ has gone through slumps like this before. People say “he’s in his third season” but he’s still only 21. And he’s taking on a much bigger role defensively this year.

      We do not have to panic or make rash moves even if the team continues to muddle through and performs way below expectations. We have no “bad” contracts. We have multiple first round picks in front of us over the next few years. We have the ability to create cap space pretty easily. And we know Thibs and the coaching staff are at least going to give us baseline competency. So we just need to tinker until we fix it.

    7. I’m with Swift. A few games ago a lot of us wanted IQ on the bench. Now he’s gotten “better.” There will be ups and downs. Let’s get to the all star break at least before hitting the panic button.

    8. It matters a LOT whether we win 35 or 50 games. The path this FO has taken is “fake it till you make it,” we’re trying to create the excitement and buzz that will make the next Durant or LeBron want to play here. A .500 team that misses the playoffs is not going to achieve that.

      A step back to mediocrity is a giant step backwards, and really makes Leon Rose’s grand strategy look pretty bad. This team needs to generate some excitement, and soon.

    9. BernieEarnie:
      Z-man in the previous thread:

      “…Whether we win 35 or 50 games this season doesn’t really matter that much, as this is a clearly transitional period and we’re far from a finished product…”

      While I agree with the overall sentiment of your post, if the Knicks win 35 games this year it really would matter.Assuming the cause wasn’t injuries, it matters in missing the play-offs, Julius big-time regression, E is right about Thibs, and most importantly the blow to our collective egos (of the 150 win total votes cast, zero voted for less than 36)

      I predicted 44 wins for the Knicks, thinking that was sort of their floor. Anything less than that will be a very unpleasant surprise and not good at all after taking several steps forward last year.

    10. The goal is to be attractive to the 2023 FA class(barring a big trade) so we need to see some progression with this squad until then. If we’re really a 35 win team that means RJ and Julius arent the guys we should be building around.

    11. “Maybe it’s time to add some wrinkles in the offense to help him out.”

      I agree with this sentiment somewhat. Not knocking Thibs, but last year the offense was pretty simplistic because we had a lot of youth/new bodies and a new system. The Knicks didn’t do many things, but they got good at the few things they did.

      This year is a different story. The main core of guys should be able to add to their repertoire. But none of that matters if the shooting disappears, which is why Thibs really should ride the hot hand as much as possible until everyone is shooting well again. In fact, they should probably take a few practices to just work on shooting basics.

      I’m less worried about the offense long-term. It’s more the defense that could keep these guys out of the playoffs. Last year, we defended the three pretty well. This year, not so much. But really, a lot of that involves luck, too.

    12. Knick fan not in NJ:
      Mudiay isn’t a fair comparison.He’s not a defender like Frank is. He was expected to score and not just for a three game streak. Frank’s stats so far this season are pretty good (for a role player) and it’s not because he’s gone on some sort of a hot streak.I looked him up on CARMELO and his closest comp is Sean Livingston. That’s a useful player.Of course the season is early and he could regress or get injured. But the trend so far is good and, as Z-man pointed out, pointing in the direction Strat suggested.

      if frank nikalina evens sniffs sean livingston’s jock strap…i will be very surprised…

    13. I was probably more flippant with that 35 vs. 50 remark than intended, but my point is that if we win 35 games, management will be more likely to take the L and consider alternatives (different players, coaches, etc.) and it would improve our draft position. But yes, given the current situation, I’d much prefer 50 to 35.

    14. Here’s a little Dad joke for a boring off day:

      “What is the favorite song of every guard who Kemba Walker defends?”

      “Blue Bayou” ba dum bum

    15. A step back to mediocrity is a giant step backwards, and really makes Leon Rose’s grand strategy look pretty bad. This team needs to generate some excitement, and soon.

      I disagree with this take. At least with the “soon” part. Part of the problem is that if we win 35 games, then the media will flip out and say we’re back to LOLKnicks and that is when we might do something really stupid but the reality is that this same squad next year could win way more games. The difference between average and good is not that big in the NBA. And generating excitement, while important, to me isn’t as important as our organization looking competent and drama free. So firing Thibs and blowing up the team if they underperform to me seems counter to that. Its just more “excitement” that doesn’t actually do anything.

      I mean, we know Thibs can produce results and we know the core of this team is capable of being a decentish playoff team. Maybe they overcorrected a bit with too much offense and gave up too much defense this offseason, but that is hardly a reason to think Leon is incompetent or the team needs to be blown up and we make some dumb lopsided trade. Ignoring the screaming tweets and hot take articles is I think key to us not getting too high or too low. I mean, I wil ladmit probably getting my expectations too high after last season but I still generally think we’re pointed in the right direction regardless of how we end up this season.

      I again just point to the idea that if we had performed last year how people thought we would going into the season or even if we had just been a 500 team on the bubble as we were before D Rose, our current record would look good and not bad. The raised expectations are what make it look so bad.

    16. ***Mudiay isn’t a fair comparison. He’s not a defender like Frank is.***

      Mudiay did, actually, come into the league as a prospect with “the tools to be an excellent defender”. He had very similar measurables as Ntilikina.

      But, fine. How’s this:

      On May 13th, 2019, 23 year old Stanley Johnson, playing for his 3rd team, goes 12-22 with 6 3 pointers, while a Pistonsblogger tweets “salt in the wound” to his zero followers. (That was the 3rd to last game Stanley Johnson would play in the NBA before signing with the Green Bay Lakers).

      Or this:

      In 2016 defensive stopper and #2 overall draft pick Michael Kidd-Gilchrist plays 7 games. His TS% Of .603 during those games is almost 100 points higher than his career thus far. A Charlotteblogger declares that he has become the player that everybody wished he would become. Charlotte management reads the post, gives said blogger the W on Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and offers him a $50,000,000 contract. (Michael Kidd-Gilchrist then reverts back to actual Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Charlotte buys him out. He was last seen somewhere in the bowels of the Worlds Most Famous Arena, cleaning out his locker).

    17. The difference between average and good is not that big in the NBA.

      I mean, in this particular context we’re talking about the difference between 35 and 50 wins. That’s…an enormous difference anyway you slice it. The narrative, the actual quality of the team, the excitement it generates, etc.

      If we win 35 games this year, the media would be correct to point out that things have gone horribly wrong. It doesn’t take a lot of analysis of our offseason to realize that was not the plan.

      This team is clearly not a contender, which is fine and I think was well-known by Rose and co. after the offseason. However that does mean the plan was to create a situation the next superstar to change teams would find appealing, so JK is right to point out that if we don’t do that our position starts looking pretty damn iffy.

    18. I mean, in this particular context we’re talking about the difference between 35 and 50 wins. That’s…an enormous difference anyway you slice it. The narrative, the actual quality of the team, the excitement it generates, etc.

      Obviously the win total is a big difference and, yes, perception wise, it’s a big difference. All I’m saying is that often times in the difference between a 35 win team and a 50 win team is literally just one tweak to the starting line up or the addition of one player. Look at how this team performed after the D Rose trade. If you just made the blanket statement that team X decides to make a small trade to get a back up point guard, would you bet that team would then go from a 500 win team to a team that wins 13 games in a row and jumps to the 4th seed?

      So while I certainly am open to changing the roster this season or in the offseason, panicking and trading Randle for a bag of peanuts or giving up on RJ, etc…to me would be a panic reaction to a team underperforming relative to expectations and that would be the exact wrong move for us to make. Unless, of course, we’re making those moves to bring in a legit superstar in their prime. Then all bets are off.

    19. So here’s a hot take that will richly deserve the derision I expect to have heaped on it.

      To me, the Knicks are clearly underperforming, which is why I’m frustrated. I look at this team and I see (here goes) a Warriors-Lite. They’re deep, and they have a bunch of good shooters surrounding a point-forward. (They also have a couple of offensively challenged rim protectors, which has often been a thing for the Warriors).

      But it’s not working. And I think it’s not working because they’re not doing (or buying into, or understanding, or able to execute, or practicing it enough) the exquisite ball movement that the Warriors do. Last year, as mentioned above, Julius just dominated because he had to. This year they need to do something very different, and they’re not there, and it’s a hot mess.

      It doesn’t help that the ‘good shooters’ (outside of Rose, Kemba, Burks, and finally IQ) aren’t shooting worth shit, at least from 3.

      Again, I’ll stress the word “Lite” here. But at least I can look at this roster on paper and see it. I sure can’t see it when I look on the court. At least for the starting unit.

      I think it’s ALL the starters’ faults. Julius can’t figure out how to be even just Draymond-Lite (do I scurry up court? do I pass instead of shoot?). Kemba isn’t driving the car, Fournier looks like a car side-swiped him, and JR just seems lost. And Thibs has them all scratching their heads at this point.

      I actually think they’ll figure it out, but probably not soon (the last few games you could see them trying to make the extra pass, but it clearly feels un-natural to them still).

    20. We’ve played one of the softest schedules in the league and we’re 8-7. We’re 20th in SRS. The starting lineup has not been good on either side of the ball.

      I know you don’t want to panic and all that, but the bigger the sample size gets, the worse that starting lineup looks. I guess according to some more advanced stats we’re getting decent quality looks but just not making the shots, so maybe there is some regression to the mean that is due, but right now that starting five looks unplayable. They get their asses kicked every game.

    21. Guys need to chill. Almost everyone on the team is performing as they did last year. The main changes from last year are:
      – Bullock to Fournier: Fournier is having his worst, by far, shooting year of his career. Expect this to improve. Bullock was having a career season, but Fournier is the better player.
      – Payton to Kemba: lol
      – Randle and RJ slumping: not by much, and I do expect this to improve. Randle hasn’t shot this badly since his rookie season when he played 14 minutes.

    22. Raven, I think you’re spot on and here’s the thing. Thibs is known for defense, not offense. Give him a team that isn’t super talented but has some plus defenders and he can squeeze out a good team. But he isn’t a magician. If the team doesn’t have enough plus defenders but has a lot of offensive talent, is he capable of maximizing that and getting the most out of the defense with a team that doesn’t have a bunch of good defenders?

      Maybe it just will take him and the team longer to figure it out. All I know is that we gotta win tonight cause the Rockets are bad..worse than the Magic…and the schedule gets tougher from here.

      I don’t worry too much about strength of schedule because if an NBA team isn’t playing well, they will lose, even to “bad” teams. And if they’re playing well, they will win games they aren’t “supposed” to win. It’s all pretty relative.

    23. Donnie Walsh:
      ***Mudiay isn’t a fair comparison. He’s not a defender like Frank is.***

      Mudiay did, actually, come into the league as a prospect with “the tools to be an excellent defender”. He had very similar measurables as Ntilikina.

      But, fine. How’s this:

      On May 13th, 2019, 23 year old Stanley Johnson, playing for his 3rd team, goes 12-22 with 6 3 pointers, while a Pistonsblogger tweets “salt in the wound” to his zero followers. (That was the 3rd to last game Stanley Johnson would play in the NBA before signing with the Green Bay Lakers).

      Or this:

      In 2016 defensive stopper and #2 overall draft pick Michael Kidd-Gilchrist plays 7 games. His TS% Of .603 during those games is almost 100 points higher than his career thus far. A Charlotteblogger declares that he has become the player that everybody wished he would become. Charlotte management reads the post, gives said blogger the W on Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and offers him a $50,000,000 contract. (Michael Kidd-Gilchrist then reverts back to actual Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Charlotte buys him out. He was last seen somewhere in the bowels of the Worlds Most Famous Arena, cleaning out his locker).

      Donnie, just ignore it, really. You’re dealing with people who really only want to antagonize and take every little chance to prove how much smarter they are, and continuing to acknowledge it only fuels the fire and makes them do it even more. It’s always the same bs, small sample sizes are definitive proof when it fits their narrative and useless when it fits the narrative of someone they dislike, and whenever the situation shifts they’ll stay quiet as usual and find some other way to keep antagonizing people. Things have been much better for me when I started just scrolling past the obvious bullshit and ignoring it.

    24. All I know is that we gotta win tonight cause the Rockets are bad..worse than the Magic…and the schedule gets tougher from here.

      See! It’s not just me that misremembers what days the games are! :)

    25. I admire Donnie’s dedication to debunking stupid Frank Ntilikina bullshit but like Bruno I personally am just exhausted with it at this point. If someone truly believes we let a great player slip through our fingertips, whatever helps them sleep at night.

      I subscribe to the idea that we’ve underperformed a bit. For example I feel like I’m one of the few people not particularly worried about Fournier, he’ll get better. The defense is already starting to trend in the right direction even if it won’t be top 5 again, and our defensive shot quality ranks 6th in the league so there has definitely been some bad luck there.

      However I also think there are a lot of issues that aren’t necessarily going to take care of themselves. As JK mentioned last thread, the theory of the case for our starting lineup relies in part on Kemba being able to provide some dribble penetration. If he can’t do that, the way everything else falls into place looks a lot less clear.

      The primary reason for our mediocre performance might be our nominal best player playing like shit, and I’m worried that isn’t just going to change on its own. We should have proactively told him it was unlikely he’d shoot like Dirk Nowitzki again and tried to draw up offensive schemes accordingly, but the second best time to do that is now. I don’t see any reason to think Randle will start playing much better absent those changes, and if he doesn’t the season is pretty much over.

      An interesting question: if Randle doesn’t get much better, at what point do you start to consider siphoning off a substantial amount of his minutes? Probably more of an academic exercise than anything else because I don’t see Thibs doing it, bit I would say if at game ~50 we’re still in the running for a non-play in playoff spot and Randle is rocking a .530 TS% or whatever…it’s Obi time.

    26. Raven:

      To me, the Knicks are clearly underperforming, which is why I’m frustrated. I look at this team and I see (here goes) a Warriors-Lite. They’re deep, and they have a bunch of good shooters surrounding a point-forward. (They also have a couple of offensively challenged rim protectors, which has often been a thing for the Warriors).

      But it’s not working.

      I 100% agree with your take and I’m going to add one that is going to receive way more derision.

      For me the most frustrating thing is that they were going in the right direction and then boom, the totally lost track.

      People want to know who can help Randle and share the offensive burden with him?
      Go watch the first 2 games of the season or the first win against Phila or the two road wins in Chicago and New Orleans.
      Ball movement? In Orlando we had 34 assists on 44 baskets.

      There’s only one player on this team that pout, only one player that doesn’t congratulate teammates when they do good thing (especially if the teammates are Kemba or Fournier or Barrett, the web is full of clips about this),
      there is only one player that don’t want to share the glory.

      Julius Randle.

      It all starts and ends with him, he’s the one with the scowl, he’s the one walking on offense and crawling on defense (others are bad defenders, he’s not bad, in the last few games he just didn’t try).

      He had a fantastic season last year (playoffs aside), I expected him to embrace this infusion of talent and become the leader of a Warriors-lite team (or a 2004 Pistons revival or the 2014 Spurs reincarnation), instead he’s going in the opposite direction, the “Carmelo hates Jeremy Lin” direction.

      I want him to succeed, I want him to be good, I still hope I’m badly wrong.

    27. @FredKatz
      Nerlens Noel (sprained right knee) has been upgraded to probable for tomorrow’s game, the Knicks say. Taj Gibson has a sore groin and is doubtful.

    28. kevin5318:
      @FredKatz
      Nerlens Noel (sprained right knee) has been upgraded to probable for tomorrow’s game, the Knicks say. Taj Gibson has a sore groin and is doubtful.

      Good. I love Taj, but it’ll be nice to have Mitch and Noel in the same game for once, just to see how much of our defensive ineptitude is tied to not having elite shot-blocking for all 48 minutes. (Or close to it.)

    29. Both to Noble and Alan’s points, Obi’s been trending up in minutes — 11 per last year, 15 per this year, last game 17. Not the 20 I want to see, but it’s something. I fear it’s just all the center injuries, though, and having Noel and Mitch back might cause Thibs to cut that down.

      Obi should play 16 at PF with Randle getting 32, and Obi should get at least 4 with Randle. So Nerlen and Mitch play 22 each (or whatever is working).

      DRed as GM would have to approve that, of course, but that’s what I’d argue for.

    30. Max: Go watch the first 2 games of the season or the first win against Phila or the two road wins in Chicago and New Orleans.
      Ball movement? In Orlando we had 34 assists on 44 baskets.

      Exactly this. I don’t know why, but the offense worked early on, and it does not now. Randle and E4 in particular were at least trying the two man game with some success. Maybe the other teams keyed on this and took it away, but maybe it’s something else.

    31. thenoblefacehumper: An interesting question: if Randle doesn’t get much better, at what point do you start to consider siphoning off a substantial amount of his minutes? Probably more of an academic exercise than anything else because I don’t see Thibs doing it, bit I would say if at game ~50 we’re still in the running for a non-play in playoff spot and Randle is rocking a .530 TS% or whatever…it’s Obi time.

      Randle offers much more to overall team play on both than his TS% indicates. He had by far his best season last year and was arguably a top 10-20 player in the league despite having a rather pedestrian TS% for a so-called star. He’s an excellent rebounder, very good passer for his position, adequate ball handler, and decent defender both individually and in a team sense. Obi still has very deep, glaring holes in his overall game and his gaudy TS% belies how mediocre to terrible he is at some aspects of the game. So barring a real burst in overall play from Obi and a giant, lasting regression from Julius, I wouldn’t anticipate a minutes change no matter how the team is doing W-L-wise.

    32. Raven:
      Both to Noble and Alan’s points, Obi’s been trending up in minutes — 11 per last year, 15 per this year, last game 17. Not the 20 I want to see, but it’s something. I fear it’s just all the center injuries, though, and having Noel and Mitch back might cause Thibs to cut that down.

      Obi should play 16 at PF with Randle getting 32, and Obi should get at least 4 with Randle. So Nerlen and Mitch play 22 each (or whatever is working).

      DRed as GM would have to approve that, of course, but that’s what I’d argue for.

      Sounds about right, except for the GM part. DRed’s infatuation with a certain oft-injured C has dampened my enthusiasm about his teambuilding acumen.

    33. All our centers are banged up. They are just taking turns giving themselves a game off to recover. Maybe we should trade for Willie Cauley-Stein. He may be on his way out in Dallas.

      I never said Frank was going to be a great player. I said he was underrated by most single number metrics and likely to develop into the kind of player a lot of teams would be happy to have. He is a switchable plus defender, ball mover, and secondary playmaker. That’s a nice profile. He just had to add a consistent spot up 3. Anything above that would be gravy.

      This blog is very in favor of building through the draft, but then gives up on young players like Frank WAY too soon. He’s got 3-4 more years of improvement to go if he remains healthy.

      I’m not even convinced Knox is a bust yet. He was ridiculously raw when we drafted him, just like Frank. He could still develop into a very useful player even if I prefer something else.

      I’m pretty optimistic about our young players, but we have to actually keep them and develop them.

    34. I’m not even convinced Knox is a bust yet. He was ridiculously raw when we drafted him, just like Frank. He could still develop into a very useful player even if I prefer something else.

      Once again, Strat, you’ve let your commitment to the bit go too far. Even if Knox develops into a useful player — and at this point, it seems clear that his best case scenario is as a Steve Novak type — he is still an enormous bust given his draft position and the fact that four of the five players taken immediately after him have gone on to vastly outplay him, with two getting post-rookie max contracts, one getting a fat contract extension, and one almost certain to cash in hugely next summer, while Knox will likely be chasing a minimum deal on another team.

    35. who am i?

      -on rookie contract
      -reputation as a solid or better defender
      -multi-year starter
      -career 36% 3pt shooter
      -career 35% of shots are from 0-3 ft
      -career 29% ftr (free throw rate)
      -career 5.6 reb/game
      -career 1.2% stl rt
      -career 0.9% blk rt
      -this yr 2.6 ast/36
      -this yr 47% 2p fg%
      -for career team is -2/100 when on court
      -4% of career shots are dunks
      -exactly 5 and1s this year

    36. This blog is very in favor of building through the draft, but then gives up on young players like Frank WAY too soon. He’s got 3-4 more years of improvement to go if he remains healthy.

      Even at his 99th percentile outcome Frank is not a building block. He’s the kind of player you can find anywhere. I wouldn’t trade Grimes or McBride straight up for him, and neither of those guys are blue chip prospects. You can find guys at or near the vet minimum who play some defense and knock down an occasional three if left wide open. You don’t need to give a roster space to them for eight years while they work their way up to “as good as a guy at the vet minimum” status.

      We’re not particularly good and he wouldn’t sniff the rotation for us. Whose minutes are you taking away to get Frenchy in the games if he’s still a Knick?

    37. JK47: We’re not particularly good and he wouldn’t sniff the rotation for us. Whose minutes are you taking away to get Frenchy in the games if he’s still a Knick?

      Kemba Walker’s, Alec Burks’s, and Evan Fournier’s, primarily. The idea that he’s good enough to make Dallas’s rotation but not “sniff” the rotation of the “not particularly good” Knicks can’t really logically hold water.

      And it’s a mischaracterization to say Frank merely “plays some defense.” They should have held onto him. The games aren’t played on paper by random number generators.

    38. Last night Steph Curry outscored the entire Cavs team 20-8 in the 4th quarter, becoming only the 2nd player in in the last 25 years to double up an opponents point total in a quarter

      And we’re talking about Frank Fucking Ntilikina

    39. Donnie and Bruno, you won’t convince me by citing examples of players who were briefly good and then failed. Of course , there are examples of that but there are also examples of players who were bad and got better. You can’t generalize from one example, no matter how much you want it to be true. It’s better to look at groups of players and at statistics. That’s why I use CARMELO. It’s not perfect, but the top comparisons are picked completely numerically. Anybody on its list of comparables has to be an example of someone who was similar to Frank in many ways. The list for Frank’s comps doesn’t have any stars but it has many useful players in it. Therefore there are examples of players like Frank who became useful. One or two counter examples doesn’t change the fact that it’s possible for a player like Frank to become useful. Here’s the full list of you are curious.

      https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-player-projections/frank-ntilikina/

    40. d-mar:
      Last night Steph Curry outscored the entire Cavs team 20-8 in the 4th quarter, becoming only the 2nd player in in the last 25 years to double up an opponents point total in a quarter

      And we’re talking about Frank Fucking Ntilikina

      I’ll bite. Who was the first player to do it?

    41. Raven: I love that Frank is good at two things: steal% and draft position.

      He really is the gift that keeps on giving…

      three things…i heard he makes a mean tarte tatin…

    42. Nice one, Pepper.

      I wonder if CJ McCollum makes a mean tarte tatin, too. Him being there was the funniest bit on that whole site.

    43. Rejoice Knicks’ fans, our stashed PG-Of-The-Future Rokas had a nice productive week in Euroleague.
      Combined numbers in his 2 games:

      45 min (21 and 24, steadily raising), 19 PTS (9-14 2FG, no 3FG, 1-2 FT), 6 REB, 7 AST, 4 TO.

      He did play as the main ballhandler most of the time and, following a recurring trend, refused to take 3-pointers (kinda strange).

    44. Our problem right now is that we have a 60 win bench and a 20 win starting lineup.

      However, if the starters embrace ball movement again they can probably be 50 win starters again.

    45. Dallas is a fake “good” team. They’re 22nd in the NBA in SRS, lower than us, and they have allowed more points than they have scored.

      The guys behind Frank on their bench are Trey Burke and some no-hoper replacement players.

      Frank would be getting DNP-CDs every game on this team.

    46. ***Donnie and Bruno, you won’t convince me by citing examples***

      I guess Bruno is right. I will disengage.

      But only after making one final point:

      I’ve had very few opinions about the Knicks over the years, but the one debate that I’ve engaged in over the years here was the one with the clearest correct side: the one that argued that Ntilikina wasn’t worth rostering. I argued that we shouldn’t pick up his 3rd and then his 4th year options. It was clear then that, if he was ever going to be good enough to play in the league, it was going to be for another team. Teenagers can be terrible as rookies and turn out to be good in the long run. But when Ntilikina got demonstrably worse during his sophomore year the writing was on the wall. Literally NO player in the history of the league started terrible, GOT WORSE, and then stayed in the league long enough to make any impact. That includes the now large sample of teenagers. And defensively, he just wasn’t strong enough to make up for his offensive shortcomings. He’d have needed to be Tony Allen just to be playable on an NBA team, and he wasn’t close to that. If Stanley Johnson isn’t a fair comp, then CARMELO is broken. They have had the exact same career thus far. And maybe Stanley Johnson plays his way out of Green Bay and goes 5-8 in a game his team loses, but if he does, I’m going to guess that nobody here will even notice because, outside of his immediate family, no one will care.

    47. Randle offers much more to overall team play on both than his TS% indicates. He had by far his best season last year and was arguably a top 10-20 player in the league despite having a rather pedestrian TS% for a so-called star.

      For sure, but the question is to what extent is he providing these things this year, and are they outweighing the suddenly reliable, if more limited, play of Toppin?

      He’s still a better playmaker than Toppin obviously but his AST% and TO% are both a few ticks worse than last year. I’m no scout, but he doesn’t seem markedly better than Obi on defense. He still provides spacing (and 3PT shooting generally) that Obi doesn’t, so it’s not an easy call.

      But if all of that is going to come with a slew of long-two bricks, etc. I think it’s at least worth asking.

    48. Kemba Walker’s, Alec Burks’s, and Evan Fournier’s, primarily.

      Tip: if at Thanksgiving a beloved older family member suggests any of these players are inferior to Frank Ntilikina, it might be time to look into senior housing options.

    49. Time for some optimism.

      (1) We’re over .500
      (2) We have the 11tg best offense
      (3) Our have yet to start clicking (they will)
      (4) Our defense is returned to respectability
      (5) Noel hasn’t played & Mitch will get healthy

      We’ve got lots of upside and in a worst case scenario we’re still over .500!!!

    50. who am i?

      -on rookie contract
      -reputation as a solid or better defender
      -multi-year starter
      -career 36% 3pt shooter
      -career 35% of shots are from 0-3 ft
      -career 29% ftr (free throw rate)
      -career 5.6 reb/game
      -career 1.2% stl rt
      -career 0.9% blk rt
      -this yr 2.6 ast/36
      -this yr 47% 2p fg%
      -for career team is -2/100 when on court
      -4% of career shots are dunks
      -exactly 5 and1s this year

      it’s got to be someone on the grizz, right?

    51. -on rookie contract
      -reputation as a solid or better defender
      -multi-year starter
      -career 36% 3pt shooter
      -career 35% of shots are from 0-3 ft
      -career 29% ftr (free throw rate)
      -career 5.6 reb/game
      -career 1.2% stl rt
      -career 0.9% blk rt
      -this yr 2.6 ast/36
      -this yr 47% 2p fg%
      -for career team is -2/100 when on court
      -4% of career shots are dunks
      -exactly 5 and1s this year

      Maybe we shouldn’t quite max him

    52. Sounds about right, except for the GM part. DRed’s infatuation with a certain oft-injured C has dampened my enthusiasm about his teambuilding acumen.

      Are you talking about Nerlens Noel or the guy 4th on the team in minutes?

    53. Watching Orlando dismember the Nets has me feeling not so bad tonight. Or maybe that’s the Bing Bong hit? These pukes from the I4 corridor totally own NYC right now though. So embarrassing…

    54. Randle should get better-his shot selection is arguably better than it was last year, he’s just shooting unusually poorly from midrange. I think a lot of our troubles have been somewhat flukey, but it sucks that we are playing badly against teams we should be beating. Even if we play better like I think we still lost these games

    55. ptmilo:
      who am i?

      -on rookie contract
      -reputation as a solid or better defender
      -multi-year starter
      -career 36% 3pt shooter
      -career 35% of shots are from 0-3 ft
      -career 29% ftr (free throw rate)
      -career 5.6 reb/game
      -career 1.2% stl rt
      -career 0.9% blk rt
      -this yr 2.6 ast/36
      -this yr 47% 2p fg%
      -for career team is -2/100 when on court
      -4% of career shots are dunks
      -exactly 5 and1s this year

      I was down on him during the draft… still conflicted but higher on him now.

    56. @ShamsCharania

      Cavaliers guard Collin Sexton will miss the remainder of the season after undergoing surgery on left meniscus tear, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.

      Glad we didn’t make that trade after all

    57. too funny, there’s actually an entry on google that says: Who TF is Keldon Johnson?

      ugh, is the point of the story that RJ has some seriously suspect stats…ouch, i hadn’t really noticed his numbers for a while…wow, his stats really are pretty bad…oh well…thanks for sharing that bit of joyous news…

    58. ordered some earbuds and attachable headphones for the oculus, there should be a warning somewhere about how sore you can get just from playing a game…got that saber in my hand, still sorta doing vader’s bidding, and, well both my shoulders feel like they’re about to fall off…

      picked up this boxing app – thrill of the fight…i’m somewhat frightened…

    59. ugh, is the point of the story that RJ has some seriously suspect stats…ouch,

      nah there wasn’t really a moral, except that’s a shit ton of weird commonality (and not all superficial) for two guys taken in the same draft you basically never hear mentioned in the same conversation.

    60. are you sayin’ there’s not some reason for worry looking at RJ’s “advanced” stats…i don’t know who tf keldon johnson is, but – those are not inspiring numbers from our 3rd pick in the draft…he’s a bad defensive player who can’t do much on offense…

      i’m just gonna enjoy my eye test for a while longer…i really like the young man…how in the heck is 15.5 pts, 5.8 reb, 2.4 ast per game (pretty much his career average) producing such a miniscule win share, terrible box +/- and sad vorp…

      what the hell is going on out here?!?!?

    61. are you sayin’ there’s not some reason for worry looking at RJ’s “advanced” stats…i don’t know who tf keldon johnson is, but – those are not inspiring numbers from our 3rd pick in the draft…he’s a bad defensive player who can’t do much on offense…

      i’m just gonna enjoy my eye test for a while longer…i really like the young man…how in the heck is 15.5 pts, 5.8 reb, 2.4 ast per game (pretty much his career average) producing such a miniscule win share, terrible box +/- and sad vorp…

      what the hell is going on out here?!?!?

      i know it’s you meta world zuckerberg, autopiloting geo thru his oculus quest and forcing him to help you unravel human cognition third rock from the sun style, basketball blog by basketball blog. and it was a decent go at it. but, no, i’m not going to believe this was the first time geo has been made aware of rj barrett’s basketball statistics. maybe try that thing again where you took pictures with cows.

    62. that scrappy magic squad is pasting the nets sans KD…

      Watching Orlando dismember the Nets has me feeling not so bad tonight.

      These two didn’t age too well…

      Orlando has 4 wins in 16 games and two of them are at the Garden, I feel bad enough…

    63. The new rules are exposing James Harde…oh, wait, never mind, he’s still amazing (and with an increased free throw rate this season!).

    64. Frank obviously shot horribly but his per 36 numbers would have included 8 FTs, 6 Rebs, 10 Assts and 6 Steals and he was a +2 in his stint. Funny how the detractors ignore those things.

      If anything, people should be looking ar Reggie Bullock’s numbers and thinking we dodged a bullet. He’s been horrendous!

    65. Re: Keldon vs. RJ I remember Keldon being near the top of the draft board a few months before the draft and then dropping like a stone for a bunch of reasons I can’t recall. No surprise that the Spurs wound up with him and are developing him into a solid player.

    66. I have to go to a wedding today and will miss the game…I guess if you have to miss one, this would be it…a win would be meaningless and a loss would be excruciating.

    67. Knick fan not in NJ:
      Donnie and Bruno, you won’t convince me by citing examples of players who were briefly good and then failed. Of course , there are examples of that but there are also examples of players who were bad and got better.You can’t generalize from one example, no matter how much you want it to be true.It’s better to look at groups of players and at statistics. That’s why I use CARMELO. It’s not perfect, but the top comparisons are picked completely numerically.Anybody on its list of comparables has to be an example of someone who was similar to Frank in many ways.The list for Frank’s comps doesn’t have any stars but it has many useful players in it.Therefore there are examples of players like Frank who became useful. One or two counter examples doesn’t change the fact that it’s possible for a player like Frank to become useful. Here’s the full list of you are curious.

      https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-player-projections/frank-ntilikina/

      I have no interest of convincing you or anyone about anything, we all have irrational attachments to some players we believe in, hell I still wait for the day where Justise Winslow will get healthy and figure it all out, and I’ll still argue that Kyle Anderson is awesome. But I also acknowledge the fact that it’s irrational and these dudes entire careers have shown that so far it’s not gonna happen.

      You won’t see me here arguing that Anderson is great because 538 compares him to Andrei Kirilenko, I just accept I have an attachment and move on.

    68. Max:
      These two didn’t age too well…

      Orlando has 4 wins in 16 games and two of them are at the Garden, I feel bad enough…

      Indeed. There’s a reason the Nets are 12-5 even without Uncle Drew.

    69. I have to go to a wedding today and will miss the game…I guess if you have to miss one, this would be it…a win would be meaningless and a loss would be excruciating.

      Agreed, this one will likely be very skippable. Have fun at the wedding! Big sporting events at weddings are always a trip (and this is not a big sporting event, of course). I remember a close Yankee ALCS game one year at a wedding and it was so hard to find out what was going on.

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