Knicks Morning News (2021.10.10)

  • Knicks veteran Rose reveals reality after avoiding devastating ankle injury – ClutchPoints
    [clutchpoints.com] — Sunday, October 10, 2021 1:45:13 AM

    Knicks veteran Rose reveals reality after avoiding devastating ankle injury  ClutchPoints

  • Can the Knicks’ boost in offense carry a team that may be less defensive? | Home Schooled – Yahoo Sports
    [sports.yahoo.com] — Sunday, October 10, 2021 12:27:00 AM

    Can the Knicks’ boost in offense carry a team that may be less defensive? | Home Schooled  Yahoo Sports

  • Kevin Knox makes most of his Knicks chance in rout of Wizards – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Saturday, October 9, 2021 9:57:00 PM

    Kevin Knox makes most of his Knicks chance in rout of Wizards  New York Post Preseason Game Preview: Knicks at Wizards- 10/9/2021  Posting and ToastingNBA Recap: Wizards blown out 117-99 by Knicks  Bullets ForeverKnicks takeaways from Saturday’s 117-99 preseason win over Wizards, including knock-down three-point shooting  Yahoo Sports5 thoughts on Knicks preseason victory over the Wizards  New York Daily NewsView Full Coverage on Google News

  • N.Y. Knicks 117, Washington 99 – The Greater New Milford Spectrum
    [www.newmilfordspectrum.com] — Saturday, October 9, 2021 9:49:08 PM

    N.Y. Knicks 117, Washington 99  The Greater New Milford Spectrum

  • N.Y. Knicks 117, Washington 99 – CT Post
    [www.ctpost.com] — Saturday, October 9, 2021 9:44:56 PM

    N.Y. Knicks 117, Washington 99  CT Post

  • Three reasons why the Knicks will surprise people during the 2021-22 NBA season – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Saturday, October 9, 2021 12:04:56 PM

    Three reasons why the Knicks will surprise people during the 2021-22 NBA season  CBS Sports

  • NBA Preseason: After Losing To The New York Knicks, The Indiana Pacers Grab First Win Of The Season Over Cavs In Cleveland – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Saturday, October 9, 2021 10:56:15 AM

    NBA Preseason: After Losing To The New York Knicks, The Indiana Pacers Grab First Win Of The Season Over Cavs In Cleveland  Sports Illustrated

  • Could Kyrie Irving’s nonsense force James Harden to NY Knicks? – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Saturday, October 9, 2021 10:00:00 AM

    Could Kyrie Irving’s nonsense force James Harden to NY Knicks?  Daily Knicks

  • Nets news: Knicks legend makes bold prediction on Kyrie Irving saga – ClutchPoints
    [clutchpoints.com] — Saturday, October 9, 2021 9:38:30 AM

    Nets news: Knicks legend makes bold prediction on Kyrie Irving saga  ClutchPoints

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    88 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2021.10.10)”

    1. Ported from the last thread as i posted it almost at the last minute. :P

      Just to temper the expectations for this team a little, i think the teams we’re playing in the preseason aren’t really giving us a hard challenge. Just like there’s a gap between the Top2 (Bucks, Nets) and the next 5 teams (Sixers, Hawks, Heat, Knicks, Celtics), i think there’s a gap between the Top7 and the next teams (Bulls, Hornets, Pacers, Raptors, Wizards). And right now i think the Wizards might be the worst of those teams. The remaining 2 preseason games will be against the Pistons (even worst, they’ll be tanking) and the Wizards again. Three games at MSG and only one game away. This is just to get guys in rhythm, we’ll only know how we fare against the teams on our level when the regular season begins.

    2. But yeah, we look much improved at offense, with lots of options and with a modern system. I don’t think we’re behind the Hawks anymore, and i’m rooting for us to be 4th/5th again for the revenge series. ;)
      We’ll be a little worst at defense, but that’s it. And the plan was exactly this, improve the offense a lot (because we needed it) at the expense of downgrading the defense just by a little. Good job by Leon and the FO.
      About the game, i liked the 3PA and 3P% very much, and we had some guys hot (DRose, Grimes, Knox, Quickley, RJ) while others were cold (Burks, Fournier, Kemba, Obi) so i think this might be sustainable. I’m not worried about the TOs because we had 2 starters out, and one is our focus point, and from the 3 starters for this season, 2 were playing only the 2nd game of their Knicks career. What drove me mad, checking the box score (i only watched the 1st half), was the playing time of Deuce and Grimes. 3 and 2 minutes? WTF!?

    3. I don’t know if I am guardedly or cautiously optimistic but there are definitely reasons to be positive if Thibs is going to upend years of his coaching strategy and embrace the three. It was like watching the Pitino Bomb Squad Knicks, (although they probably shot 20 threes per game and had no one hitting over 35%.)

      I remember Vorkunov writing several pieces after Thibs was hired about how Minnesota was actually a much better offensive team than defensive one under his coaching, and a relatively modern offense, at that. Elfrid Payton really held us back on offense last year, and I believe Thibs when he says that the shortened preseason last year meant he only could focus on installing defensive concepts.

      We’ve played two mediocre-to-bad teams in the preseason, so I’m not ready to anoint us the second coming of Seven Seconds or Less. But we’re clearly trying to run a real offense with lots of ball movement and lots of threes, and we have a bunch of guys who can score in different ways. Hell, even our least favorite giraffe had one of those stretches he occasionally dies where he couldn’t miss from downtown. And nobody else seems to be playing out of their heads so far. Heck, Kemba and Fournier weren’t even very good last night and the offense still looked fabulous.

    4. What drove me mad, checking the box score (i only watched the 1st half), was the playing time of Deuce and Grimes. 3 and 2 minutes? WTF!?

      Macri predicted that Rose might sit out the rest of the preseason after that ankle scare. Which would mean either Grimes or McBride would slide into the rotation for the last two games, depending on whether IQ would be the backup PG or stay at the two in Rose’s absence.

    5. Alan: Macri predicted that Rose might sit out the rest of the preseason after that ankle scare. Which would mean either Grimes or McBride would slide into the rotation for the last two games, depending on whether IQ would be the backup PG or stay at the two in Rose’s absence.

      Well, it’s not the best way to get there, but it’s nice to hear. Exactly because Kemba and DRose can go down to injury, we should be trying to give minutes to McBride because in case we need him during the season, he’d be more ready for that.

    6. All I’m going to say is I was absolutely LIVID watching Thibs keep Quickley and Barrett in the game when it was out of reach in the 4th. Should have let Sims/Simms/Knox/Grimes/McBride close the game out. Especially after Rose tweaked his ankle.

      That is what we fear from Thibs. I get the whole establishing your culture thing- and I’m with that. But there are times where it’s safe to kinda dial it back.

      Last night was one of those times

    7. Grimes got to play almost a full 2 minutes last night. Will he need to be rested in our next game?

    8. Alan: We’ve played two mediocre-to-bad teams in the preseason, so I’m not ready to anoint us the second coming of Seven Seconds or Less. But we’re clearly trying to run a real offense with lots of ball movement and lots of threes,

      This is the thing. We prolly would have won these same two games last year, but in a completely different and less appealing way. This year’s team has many more weapons and now SHOULD beat teams like the Pacers and Wizards.

      I think if you combine the new offense with Thibs’s season-long defensive intensity, we win 50 games. We will steal some regular season games from the elite squads and we will consistently beat the likes of our first two pre-season opponents.

      Of course , being better sets up a different kind of Knicks-heartbreak. We will still have problems in the playoffs when the elite teams pay more attention, but that’s a different thing. Bird by bird.

    9. League average 3pt shooting that year was 32% on 6.6 attempts, basically what Anthony Edwards did by himself during his rookie year.

      (The Clippers only averaged 2.9 attempts that year. The next closest team to the Knicks was the Kings at 10)

    10. RJs defense on Beal all night was great to see. Dont think RJ will ever be that guy on offense but his potential versatility makes him valuable to any team

    11. Coming into this season, I truly believed that both Rose & Kemba would be on fairly strict pitch counts and that Thibs would have little choice but to rely on Deuce & Grimey more than he may have ordinarily been inclined to do.

      Whelp, it took all of two preseason games to see what a silly notion that turned out to be.

      Full disclosure: I’ve been a Thibs skeptic since the moment his hiring was announced. Although I continued to have my reservations about him through the entirety of last season, they did come to feel rather petty following the ride he had taken all of us on. I had to begrudgingly admit that the season was the most fun I’ve had as a Knicks fan in a goodly while and that, yes, Thibs had been largely responsible for it.

      Last night, though, provided a stark reminder of the downside of Thibs. Even his most ardent supporters have acknowledged that the man has a blind spot when it comes to “riding his horses into the ground.” Doing so when the games count… well, yeah, sure I can kinda sorta grok it. But in a fucking preseason game? That the two rooks have not seen more than token minutes thus far in games that don’t count hardly inspires confidence in Coach altering his well-established patterns of minutes distribution in the games that do.

      The Knicks were lucky last night that Rose did not seriously injure his ankle while playing his 20th minute in the closing stages of a meaningless contest whose outcome had already been decided. Had the worst come to pass, Thibs would have been justly pilloried for his recklessness. Here’s hoping that near-catastrophe serves as a wake up call to Thibs to at least treat the rest of preseason like, well… the preseason, in which the aim of establishing chemistry among the top rotation players is balanced with an eye toward keeping them healthy while giving valuable experience to the kids in a setting in which their mistakes won’t cost the team one of the 82, all-important, Game 7s.

    12. Yeah, Thibs should check in on KB to determine when to insert his end of bench guys. He is kinda new to coaching and we have some pretty smart guys here, so it makes sense.

    13. I’m not sure Thibs is overusing his regulars in the preseason. Of course, in one game a starter may play more than he should by normal preseason standards, but then if he sits out the next game so someone else can get a chance to start that cuts down his total preseason minutes substantially so that his average minutes per preseason game is not that high.

    14. D Rose played 19 minutes. That doesn’t seem excessive. Sure, he could have sat out the end of the game, but still. 19 minutes.

    15. I’m still startled by Jericho Sims. He did look promising in Summer league, but also looked like he needed a lot of learning. But now he just played 26 minutes against an NBA team, had 13 rebounds and was +15. This is a guy who was drafted 58th and is on a two way contract. And watching him, I’m not convinced he’s too slow twitch to be effective. I think it may be that sometimes he’s indecisive because he’s not used to playing at this level yet. His quickness looked fine on many of the rebounds he got.

    16. Donnie Walsh:
      The Bomb Squad averaged 14 threes a game, and Trent Tucker shot over 35%.

      That is hi’ysterical. I had a bomb squad poster on my wall as a kid.

      Thibs is a little nuts. What can you do. Deuceheads may not be happy this year.

    17. 25-30 minutes for Rose in the regular season is more or less what I am expecting he’ll see this year. So, yeah, 19 minutes would hardly seem outlandish when looked at in that context.

      But 19 minutes in an exhibition game in which two rookies who may well be relied upon to serve as Rose’s prospective understudies are played 2 & 3 minutes? Call me hysterical, but that does seem a wee bit short-sighted.

      We’ll see how things play out over the rest of the preseason. But after two games, calling for more balance between establishing chemistry among the starters and getting reps for the kids in exhibition games hardly seems an especially controversial criticism.

    18. I liked Deuce in summer league and I know he was a draftnik favorite but I have no grounds to doubt Thibs yet beyond the observation that giving the people what they want is generally a good idea.

      And I do like the cut of Deuce’s jib. Sims too but he really does seem raw

    19. I think you have to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt given his track record. There’s new players and a new offense to learn & work the kinks out. If we want to make a deep playoff run it pays to finish higher in the standings and being ready early in the season helps you finish higher in the standings.

    20. Free Deuce McBride

      I like Thibs, he’s a very good coach, love his prior NY connections, and his success speaks for itself. But, if he doesn’t give the rookies more playing time now, he is more than a little nuts. That is exactly what the fucking preseason is for.

    21. There are only 4 preseason games this season, not exactly a ton of chances to give end of bench players alot of minutes when you want to make sure your regular players get enough minutes to be ready for the regular season. Not to mention the Knicks have a ton of depth especially in the backcourt so even going with a 10 man rotation the rookies are not going to get much of a look.

    22. This may be one of those annoying “everyone’s right” kind of arguments. The kids have shined in summer league and even the couple of minutes they’ve gotten so far, and deserve more opportunity to find out how real they are. And while there are a lot of returnees, there’s also some important new players and clearly a new system to learn so giving starters and key reserves real minutes in the preseason to figure those things out is pretty damn important. Thibs is clearly myopic and stubborn if not borderline insane about playing time, yet he’s extremely successful with this system.

      I’m definitely a “Give Deuce and Grimes 6-7 minutes in blowouts, not 2-3” kind of guy. But I’m gritting my teeth and waiting until we’re deep into the season before I lose my shit. Injuries, growing trust, fixing holes, all these things can change the equation. I just keep reminding myself that IQ barely cracked the rotation early. So there’s time.

    23. And to be clear, ” IQ barely cracked the rotation early” as an example doesn’t mean I believe that this was a wise decision. I do not. It’s only an example of Thibs grudgingly changing his behavior over time, meaning we can hope he does so again.

    24. This may be one of those annoying “everyone’s right” kind of arguments.

      HOW DARE YOU TRY TO BE REASONABLE AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MULTIPLE ARGUMENTS ARE CONVINCING AND BEING MADE IN GOOD FAITH, RAVEN?!?!? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE.

    25. I would love to see more Deuce and if it were up to me he’d be getting a little more time in these games, but I think we aren’t used to having a team in which “just play the damn kids” isn’t an incredibly obvious proposition.

      I’ve complained about Thibs in the past and will in the future, but 19 minutes for a starter in all but name is pretty standard fare preseason stuff even for someone with Rose’s history. Sure he could’ve pulled him earlier, and I probably would have, but there’s a balance between getting guys properly ready for the season and protecting them from injury. I can’t say 19 minutes is an improper place to land.

      This may well be something of a red-shirt year for the rookies, and if that’s the case I don’t think it’s necessarily cause for concern. Hell, it probably would mean we had pretty good health luck if anything. Teams that are sustainably good regularly bring guys along slowly and it’s never been clear that there’s a 1:1 correlation between playing time and development.

      I would like to see Deuce, Grimes, etc. in the G-League if they aren’t in even in the rotation periphery. That would let stay sharp in case they’re needed, and we’d see what they can do to at least some extent. However now that the guys in charge seem to know their asses from their elbows I’d still be more or less willing to defer to the development staff as to whether or not that’s a good idea.

    26. Roses injury last night made me flashback to his first ACL injury when he was playing during an already won game in the playoffs. Not saying Thibs was wrong but its who he is at this point he wont change that.

    27. Saquon hurt again. Sigh. I am torn between wanting to see the team do well for my best friend who’s an even bigger Giants fan than me, and wanting to see it all burned to the ground around Gettleman and John Mara.

    28. If John is anything like his pa, a decade plus as the NFL’s laughingstock won’t compel him to change course. Self-awareness is hardly a strong suit in Clan Mara. Wellington would not have given up his death grip on football operations had not the commissioner stepped in and taken it from him. Sadly, Pete Rozelle has been dead for 25 years.

      In other words, burning it all to the ground will bring about nothing but misery for untold millions of Giants fans. The Maras will simply continue on their merry way, completely unfazed. amidst the smoldering rubble.

      (And just as I type that, New York punches it in from the one to tie Dallas at 10. Go Giants!)

    29. Alan: Alan
      October 10, 2021 at 2:56 pm
      This may be one of those annoying “everyone’s right” kind of arguments.

      HOW DARE YOU TRY TO BE REASONABLE AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MULTIPLE ARGUMENTS ARE CONVINCING AND BEING MADE IN GOOD FAITH, RAVEN?!?!? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE.

      Nice try, but this is absolutely NOT one of those kind of arguments. It’s one thing to express a prference. It’s another to make an argument. There is zero credibility to any argument that suggests that Thibs is making a mistake by not playing Deuce or Grimes more. Zero.

    30. Z-Man, I say this with love: this is not a fight anyone needs to have here. We can discuss pros and cons for each side, but suggesting that there is NO argument for playing the rookies non-garbage minutes, and that anyone attempting to do so has no credibility is just being aggressive and hostile for its own sake. You trust Thibs? That’s great. I more or less do, too. But there very much IS an argument to be made about lightening the load of injury-prone guys like Rose and Kemba, of making sure that potential emergency players like Deuce and Grimes have some in-game experience with the regular rotation guys, etc. You may not agree with that argument, but it exists.

      I have hidden your Firebird keys. Please chill.

    31. Not trying to be aggressive Alan, I simply don’t agree that there is any rational “con” to not playing guys who are absolutely not going to see any time in real games until there are injuries. There are four preseason games (a low number historically) and limited time to establish continuity going into a very challenging situation. Most (even those complaining about Thibs’ minutes distributions in preseason) believe that we are in a dogfight for home court in the playoffs, most feel like we’re underdogs to be in the top 4, and many feel like we are more likely to be a play-in team than not. That strongly suggests that every single game is critical, starting with game 1 against the Celts. So any intelligent coach would realize that and would prioritize having guys who will certainly be playing over guys who certainly will not for the full 192 minutes of preseason playing time. This is especially true when there are new pieces in the rotation. Obciously Knox and Sims are exceptions because of Mitch, Nerlens and Julius being out.

      In other words, it’s a lot to say “I would have liked to see more of Deuce and Grimes in preseason” than to suggest that “Thibs is nuts for playing his rotation guys nearly all of the preseason minutes.” It’s a gratuitous cheap shot.

    32. We should also consider that IQ, Obi, and RJ are still very young rotation players that worked on their respective games all summer and need as many reps as possible before the games count.

    33. Alan: But there very much IS an argument to be made about lightening the load of injury-prone guys like Rose and Kemba

      Kemba played 21 minutes. Rose played 19. Sure, you can make the argument, but it’s a terrible argument.

    34. Alan: You trust Thibs? That’s great.

      This has nothing to to with “trusting Thibs” in general. It’s about whether I would have a problem with ANY coach in the same circumstances. No one is suggesting that we should trust everything Thibs does. That’s a trope some here evoke when anyone buys into his decision-making about minutes. I know you’re not in that camp, but that’s kinda how your comment reads.

    35. Keep in mind that the Knicks are playing a different brand of offense this year, the pace is faster, there’s a lot more ball movement and a lot more emphasis on shooting the 3. So he probably decided that the extra reps for the regular rotation guys in game situations were more valuable than taking a longer look at Grimey and Deuce. It’s a short preseason this year, as some have mentioned.

      I get the logic of saying “NYK was way ahead in the fourth, why didn’t Thibs pull the starters” but that’s probably not the way Thibs is looking at it.

    36. If you look around the NBA there are very few rookies drafted in the first 40 picks who have played less than Grimes and McBride so far in the preseason. Every other team seems to prioritize getting at least some minutes for their rookies now while the stakes are non-existent because they know that getting more time to integrate their bench players even their end of the bench players will make the team more resilient to injuries.

      There are a lot of positive things to say about Thibs but to act like he is beyond reproach is silly and not a good posture on a forum that is designed to nitpick and examine every wart and flaw on the team. We are here to examine and question the decisions and play of our team.

      Thibs does many things well, but it is not just the posters on this board who have criticized Thibs for not playing his young guys enough and over-relying on his starters. This has been a critique at every stop he has had so do not act like anyone questioning Thibs is completely off-base. If you want to make an argument why it is better if both Grimes and McBride play less than 5 minutes a game in preseason go right ahead but don’t jump down someone’s throat for having an opinion you don’t like.

    37. Exactly JK, it’s a matter of preference, not right or wrong. His preference in this case makes complete sense under the circumstances. If another coach would have played Deuce and McBride more, that’s fine too. There’s really no grounds for criticism.

    38. Now, in the middle of the season when Thibs is playing the starters 43 minutes and has them on the floor in games where the Knicks are up by 17 with four minutes remaining, yes, that is not a great idea. He definitely does this, gets criticized for it, and deserves the criticism. This is not that, though.

    39. Thibs is big on conditioning and with the short preseason I think having the rotation in game shape is probably more important to him than getting rooks minutes. If anything Quick should get some more minutes at the one without Rose or Kemba on the floor rather than Deuce as Quick’s actually the third string point guard.

    40. Ben R: If you look around the NBA there are very few rookies drafted in the first 40 picks who have played less than Grimes and McBride so far in the preseason. Every other team seems to prioritize getting at least some minutes for their rookies now while the stakes are non-existent because they know that getting more time to integrate their bench players even their end of the bench players will make the team more resilient to injuries.

      Do you really think that if Thibs played McBride and Grimes 10 minutes instead of 3 in these preseason games with non-existent stakes, that it would make any difference whatsoever in their readiness to play in real games? And even if it did, do you really think that prioritizing giving minutes to guys who have less than a 5% chance to play in anything but garbage time over actual rotation guys is better preparation for game 1 vs the Celts, a critical divisional game that could ultimately decide playoff seeding?

      Honestly, what coach should care two shits about what other coaches do with their preseason rotations?

    41. JK47:
      Now, in the middle of the season when Thibs is playing the starters 43 minutes and has them on the floor in games where the Knicks are up by 17 with four minutes remaining, yes, that is not a great idea. He definitely does this, gets criticized for it, and deserves the criticism. This is not that, though.

      Again, exactly my point.

    42. nicos:
      Thibs is big on conditioning and with the short preseason I think having the rotation in game shape is probably more important to him than getting rooks minutes. If anything Quick should get some more minutes at the one without Rose or Kemba on the floor rather than Deuce as Quick’s actually the third string point guard.

      Right, many rooks who get time in preseason either will actually be in the running for rotation minutes in real games when the season starts, or are on teams like the Lakers or Nets that have bigger fish to fry. It would take a catastrophe for Deuce and Grimes to play real minutes, and playing a few more minutes in preseason would have zero impact on their readiness by then.

    43. That’s the problem right there. Our rookies should be in competition for playing time. It shouldn’t take every veteran in your team getting injured for your rookies to be able to play. The fact that McBride and Grimes are so clearly out of our rotation without any real chance to earn playing time is the exact foundational issue I have with Thib’s approach.

      If the premise of the argument is since Grimes and McBride won’t play in the regular season it is worthless to give them lots of minutes in preseason. That is a correct statement. The thing that I wonder is should Grimes and McBride not being in the rotation be a forgone conclusion. Preseason is where they could potentially play their way into a spot in the rotation much like IQ last year.

    44. Z-Man as my initial post shows I agree with you on this but you went overboard. If someone thinks Derrick Rose should literally never be in a decided preseason game, that’s not insane. Again, I am fine with using the preseason to condition the rotation players and build continuity and don’t think Thibs did anything wrong, but reasonable minds can differ.

      For those of you worried about Deuce and Grimes’ lack of preseason minutes, I guess my question is what bigger picture phenomenon are you actually worried about? Sure they might not see much of any playing time this year, as is common when it comes to rookies on good teams (e.g. VanVleet and Siakam), but it’s not like the front office is gonna let all the years on their rookie-deals go by without ever getting a look at them.

      If we were in a position where we should be tanking, sure, gather as much data on the rookies as possible right from the outset and let the dominos fall where they may. But as far as I can tell literally no one here disagrees with the decision to win as many games as possible this year, so why exactly should the rookies get more playing time than is conducive to that goal?

    45. When Kemba and/or Rose need rest or are out with injuries for an extended time McBride and Grimes will likely have to step in, it would be kind of good if they got some real game experience in the preseason to avoid the deer in the headlights response when they are inevitably needed at some point. Just my opinion.

      Given the experience of Rose and Kemba, I’m pretty sure the adjustment to new teammates and a new system won’t take long so lot’s of preseason minutes don’t make a lot of sense for a lot of reasons.

      On the other hand I’m also pretty sure that Thibs has forgotten more basketball than I’ll ever know so I’ll just watch and hope for the best.

    46. Ben R:
      That’s the problem right there. Our rookies should be in competition for playing time. It shouldn’t take every veteran in your team getting injured for your rookies to be able to play. The fact that McBride and Grimes are so clearly out of our rotation without any real chance to earn playing time is the exact foundational issue I have with Thib’s approach.

      If the premise of the argument is since Grimes and McBride won’t play in the regular season it is worthless to give them lots of minutes in preseason. That is a correct statement. The thing that I wonder is should Grimes and McBride not being in the rotation be a forgone conclusion. Preseason is where they could potentially play their way into a spot in the rotation much like IQ last year.

      You are acting like practice doesn’t exist and the only way for Grimes or McBride to play themselves into the rotation is by playing in preseason games. They have to play their way into preseason minutes during practices and they clearly haven’t done so.

    47. This is dumb. They’re late first round and second round rookies and it’s game two of the preseason. The contracts of Derrick Rose, Kemba Walker and Alex Burks will all be done and Grimes and McBride will still be on rookie contracts with us.

    48. I think if someone posted a picture of chicken guts we’d probably have a 400 comment thread argument about whether the entrails say we should play the kids more.

      Jowles would announce himself as the #1 haruspex without a doubt

    49. thenoblefacehumper: Z-Man as my initial post shows I agree with you on this but you went overboard. If someone thinks Derrick Rose should literally never be in a decided preseason game, that’s not insane.

      Maybe a. bit overboard on tone, but not on substance. Again, it’s not about whether it’s insane or not, it’s about whether it’s merely a preference or an actual decision with meaningful consequenses that is subject to substantive criticism. I don’t think reasonable people can possibly see it as the latter. In fact, I think it is far more valid to criticize Thibs for caring about the outcome of preseason games (as in “decided” preseason game) at all than to care about who he plays and for how long.

      thenoblefacehumper: For those of you worried about Deuce and Grimes’ lack of preseason minutes, I guess my question is what bigger picture phenomenon are you actually worried about?

      Exactly, and no one is even suggesting that they will not play at all this year. Just not in the first few games.

      thenoblefacehumper: But as far as I can tell literally no one here disagrees with the decision to win as many games as possible this year, so why exactly should the rookies get more playing time than is conducive to that goal?

      And this is exactly what I think is wrong with your first point, meaning that if Rose or Kemba are taken out, it would be more logical to play IQ at the point for more minutes, since he’d be far more likely to be the 3rd PG option early on.

    50. Clyde said that IQ should not be used at the point because he’s not a real point guard. I agree with Clyde.

    51. Jack Bauer:
      When Kemba and/or Rose need rest or are out with injuries for an extended time McBride and Grimes will likely have to step in, it would be kind of good if they got some real game experience in the preseason to avoid the deer in the headlights response when they are inevitably needed at some point. Just my opinion.

      Given the experience of Rose and Kemba, I’m pretty sure the adjustment to new teammates and a new system won’t take long so lot’s of preseason minutes don’t make a lot of sense for a lot of reasons.

      On the other hand I’m also pretty sure that Thibs has forgotten more basketball than I’ll ever know so I’ll just watch and hope for the best.

      Preseason is not real game experience and will do very little to prepare players from the deer in the headlights thing beyond what practice does. This sounds like the kind of arguments that were used to justify Frank and Knox getting oodles of playing time their rookie years rather than being in the G-League. If they show in practice that they are ready for real game action, they will get opportunities in real games. That’s actually what happened with Obi and IQ. They got minutes over Frank and Knox because they earned Thibs’ trust, but got yanked when not playing well.

      Also, it’s not just about getting Kemba and Rose reps, it’s about getting their likely floormates reps playing with them, especially with a different offensive approach. As others pointed out, they played 21 and 19 minutes, respectively. Hardly a high number.

      I actually think that if Deuce and Grimes play well in practice, they will get some limited opportunities during the regular season reasonably soon, especially if guys start tweaking ankles like Rose just did. Maybe a few minutes in second quarters in select games. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if they play more in the next 2 preseason games.

    52. I’m not so sure Miles McBride is much more point guardy than Quickley. McBride couldn’t break defenders down off the dribble in summer league and I doubt he’ll be able to do it in the NBA.

      I still like him as a Marcus Smart type guard, or as a “Frank Ntilikina, But Good” kind of player, but he doesn’t seem like a guy you want to be playing at PG in the NBA right now.

    53. DudeInKnicksTown:
      Clyde said that IQ should not be used at the point because he’s not a real point guard. I agree with Clyde.

      This is a fair point…I come down on the IQ is a better third PG option than McBride right now because you can shift PG-type responsibilities to others like Julius, Fournier or Burks. But he’s not ideal.

    54. JK47:
      I’m not so sure Miles McBride is much more point guardy than Quickley. McBride couldn’t break defenders down off the dribble in summer league and I doubt he’ll be able to do it in the NBA.

      I still like him as a Marcus Smart type guard, or as a “Frank Ntilikina, But Good” kind of player, but he doesn’t seem like a guy you want to be playing at PG in the NBA right now.

      Marcus Smart is the starting PG for the Celts, so if Deuce could be that, especially if his shot is real, that’s good enough to play some PG for us, especially with the right guys on the floor.

    55. Ben R:
      That’s the problem right there. Our rookies should be in competition for playing time. It shouldn’t take every veteran in your team getting injured for your rookies to be able to play. The fact that McBride and Grimes are so clearly out of our rotation without any real chance to earn playing time is the exact foundational issue I have with Thib’s approach.

      If the premise of the argument is since Grimes and McBride won’t play in the regular season it is worthless to give them lots of minutes in preseason. That is a correct statement. The thing that I wonder is should Grimes and McBride not being in the rotation be a forgone conclusion. Preseason is where they could potentially play their way into a spot in the rotation much like IQ last year.

      Others made the point, but there are (and have been) oehr ways for those guys to compete for rotation minutes, e.g. in training camp practices. I don’t think anything should or could be read into preseason minutes distribution beyond that Thibs has decided on a very predictable 10-man rotation to start the season, which is all he cares about right now. As to what happens in games 10-82, who knows? What we should be able to agree on is that the odds of Grimes or McBride winning rotation minutes over Kemba, Rose, Fournier, RJ, IQ or Burks in the first few games are pretty much zero. But after that, I could see him spotting the 11-15 guys in situationally, even w/o injuries.

    56. If Rose & Kemba were both 26 y.o. with clean bills of health, then I’d have no problem with the decision to keep the rooks sidelined in this, their first preseason. But as we all know (and have spent innumerable pixels here discussing) the age and medical history of the team’s 1 and 1A PGs make it fairly likely that each of them will miss significant time at some point(s) this year.

      My initial post was premised on the idea that one or both of the rookies would likely find themselves in next-man-up roles should that unfortunate – but hardly inconceivable – event come to pass. And that it might therefore behoove the coaching staff to give them more playing time in the remaining two exhibition contests. That does not strike me as a particularly outlandish premise… unless a credible case could be made that IQ and Burks provide a more than adequate insurance policy at PG and that the rookies would still be redundant.

      I certainly hope that is not the coaches’ thinking and that they have anticipated the very real possibility that Deuce and Grimey will be asked to play a bigger role than as just human victory cigars this season. I would like to think that there is already some plan on giving them the experience needed to get game ready – either via minutes in the remaining preseason games, the G-league, or some combination of both. Given that we’ve seen no indication of what those plans might be – or if they even exist – in the admittedly very brief span of two preseason games I don’t think it strays too far outside the bounds of reasonable fan discourse (on a forum devoted to exactly that) to question how the coaching staff has allocated minutes in the preseason games played to this point..

    57. Are we really saying that Deuce with 30 minutes of preseason playing time is going to be a lot more NBA ready than Deuce with 12 minutes of preseason playing time? That really seems like splitting hairs. Thibs absolutely does overwork his rotation players during the season, leaves guys in during blowouts, but again, that’s not what’s happening here.

      The idea that guys like McBride are going to benefit immensely from like 20 extra preseason minutes doesn’t seem correct. It just doesn’t seem like something worth getting upset about.

    58. Honestly, I want to see Deuce and Grimes get more minutes because I have a sneaking suspicion that they might actually be NBA-ready players (as compared to Frank [sigh], Knox [perhaps morphing into a poor man’s Novak], or even Sims [NBA ready body, the rest needs some seasoning]. Or Obi the first 2/3 of last year.

      The problem is I may not find out for ages, because Thibs, which is annoying. My PREFERENCE (nod to Z-Man) is to find out.

      Of course if the Rose ankle tweak means Rose is the vet to sit next game, perhaps I’ll get my wish…

    59. Count de Pennies: I certainly hope that is not the coaches’ thinking and that they have anticipated the very real possibility that Deuce and Grimey will be asked to play a bigger role than as just human victory cigars this season. I would like to think that there is already some plan on giving them the experience needed to get game ready – either via minutes in the remaining preseason games, the G-league, or some combination of both. Given that we’ve seen no indication of what those plans might be – or if they even exist – in the admittedly very brief span of two preseason games I don’t think it strays too far outside the bounds of reasonable fan discourse (on a forum devoted to exactly that) to question how the coaching staff has allocated minutes in the preseason games played to this point..

      Is it questioning or criticizing? Is it really reasonable to presume that the coaching staff is so shallow in their thinking that they haven’t considered these things? Or is it more reasonable to presume that they actually have considered them and are just going about things differently than you would, but still totally reasonably? You yourself provided a perfectly reasonable explanation.. that they might feel that “IQ and Burks provide a more than adequate insurance policy at PG and that the rookies would still be redundant.” This is likely true.

      Of course, that’s just for right now, meaning the first few games, which are pretty important standings-wise, is anyone disputing that? I don’t buy the suggestion that Deuce and Grimes are being written off for the year because they aren’t playing enough preseason minutes. One or both of them could be in the rotation by December, and if that happens, I seriously doubt that preseason minutes will have any impact on their success or failure.

    60. The thing is that I have a sneaking suspicion that Deuce and Grimes may be NBA-ready players (unlike Frank [sigh], or Knox [morphing into a poor man’s Novak?], or even Sims [NBA-ready body, the rest needs seasoning], or even Obi the first 2/3 of last season), but I won’t get a chance to find out, perhaps for a long time, because Thibs. Which is annoying.

      It’s my preference (nod to Z-Man) to find out.

      Perhaps if the Rose ankle means he’s the vet to sit next game we’ll get to find out.

    61. So preseason playing time is not real game experience. Sitting on the bench not playing will help them more – got it

    62. I loved watching Grimes and Deuce in Summer League but on what planet should they be in competition for playing time over Kemba, Fournier, RJ, Rose, IQ and Burks?

    63. Jack Bauer:
      So preseason playing time is not real game experience. Sitting on the bench not playing will help them more – got it

      So helping Deuce and Grimes be more ready for the zero minutes they will be playing in upcoming regular season games should be the’ top preseason priority – got it

    64. I’ll start by admitting that Thibs is not the greatest head coach of all time but he’s probably the head coach I trust the most since Van Gundy. Apparently Thibs plays his starters a lot of minutes in pre-season is to get them ready for 5-on-5 ball. H+e doesn’t run a lot of 5-on-5 in training camp. He runs smaller drills to work on specific moves. Thibs is getting his starters ready to play in a few weeks. The rookies will get their shot but they get to be developed first. This team is not rebuilding – it has been rebuilt. It’s time to strive for something good – maybe great.

      Criticize Thibs all your want, but I’m thrilled that the team is deep enough and strong enough that they have the luxury of developing rookies before they get thrust into action. When they play, they’ll be ready and hungry.

      As for defense, isn’t it strange that Thibs teams are known for defense? Listening to him you learn that it’s team defense, knowing where to be and being there, that matters. So I expect Kemba and Fournier to have their best defensive years.

    65. Z-man: So helping Deuce and Grimes be more ready for the zero minutes they will be playing in upcoming regular season games should be the’ top preseason priority – got it

      Now I see why they incinerated the 21st pick – no point in picking anyone when you know before the season starts they will get zero minutes. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if McBride and Grimes are actually not needed at all and get zero minutes this year. If true then yeah, no point in playing them in pre season.

    66. In practice, they will compete against Burks and IQ. I’m sure Thibs can figure out from that if they are close to being as good as Burks or Quickley at point

    67. So preseason playing time is not real game experience. Sitting on the bench not playing will help them more – got it

      Straw man. Nobody is saying either of these things. Of course getting >0 preseason minutes is better than getting 0 preseason minutes. It’s just that it’s a short preseason, and Thibs has obviously made the calculation that he wants to use those minutes for other things. It’s apparently more important to him that his rotation players get more time on the floor together.

      What’s the most they would get, like maybe 12 minutes a game? That’d mean they’d each be on pace to play 48 of the available 196 minutes this preseason. Right now they’re on pace to play 12-15 total minutes. We’re talking something like 30 minutes of floor time that they’re not getting. They’d probably learn SOMETHING in those 30 minutes, but it’s not like that’s really hindering their development. It’s 30 or so minutes we’re talking about.

    68. Knick fan not in NJ:
      In practice, they will compete against Burks and IQ. I’m sure Thibs can figure out from that if they are close to being as good as Burks or Quickley at point

      The punctuation confused my meaning. I meant that Thibs can figure out something about McBride and Grimes during team practices.without having to play them in pre-season games to see what they can do.

    69. JK47: Straw man. Nobody is saying either of these things. Of course getting >0 preseason minutes is better than getting 0 preseason minutes. It’s just that it’s a short preseason, and Thibs has obviously made the calculation that he wants to use those minutes for other things. It’s apparently more important to him that his rotation players get more time on the floor together.

      What’s the most they would get, like maybe 12 minutes a game? That’d mean they’d each be on pace to play 48 of the available 196 minutes this preseason. Right now they’re on pace to play 12-15 total minutes. We’re talking something like 30 minutes of floor time that they’re not getting. They’d probably learn SOMETHING in those 30 minutes, but it’s not like that’s really hindering their development. It’s 30 or so minutes we’re talking about.

      No one is saying this?? No one else but Z Man is , did you read his earlier comment that I was responding to? He said exactly this “ Preseason is not real game experience….” Try to keep up before throwing out the “ straw man” comment

    70. Jesus Christ we’re doing the Thibs shit in a preseason game. This is why we can’t have nice things.

    71. Ben R: That’s the problem right there. Our rookies should be in competition for playing time. It shouldn’t take every veteran in your team getting injured for your rookies to be able to play. The fact that McBride and Grimes are so clearly out of our rotation without any real chance to earn playing time is the exact foundational issue I have with Thib’s approach.

      Bingo. And it’s worse because the entire draft, including The Incineration, was built and premised around the reality that Thibs would just wind up burying the guys anyway. A bunch of us predicted all of this, and it’s come true. They went into the draft at 19 and 21 and came out with nary a guy that Thibs will even play IN THE PRESEASON. This team was not in a position to do that and no amount of Z’s tone policing and Karen-ing the commentary over Thibs can change this underlying reality. It’s stark and plain as day.

    72. Jack Bauer: No one is saying this?? No one else but Z Man is , did you read his earlier comment that I was responding to? He said exactly this “ Preseason is not real game experience….” Try to keep up before throwing out the “ straw man” comment

      Yeah JK because preseason games are real games. Heck, we’re already 2-0!

      Seriously Jack, you’re the one who can’t keep up. You make a snarky comment based on distorting what I’m saying and JK, who has no predisposition towards my POV (trust me!) knows exactly what you mean and what I mean. My take is that the amount of preseason minutes for rookies means virtually zero if they aren’t going to be in the rotation for the forseeeable future, and it certainly isn’t nearly as important as giving actual rotation players as many reps as possible going into game 1 vs. Boston.

      Now with Rose possibly out for the next game and maybe two, Thibs might play McBride more minutes. Or he might give all Rose’s minutes to IQ. Either decision is defensible, and certainly not a reason to criticize Thibs or any other coach.

      There will be plenty of legit opportunities to second-guess Thibs when the season starts. Lamenting that he played Rose and Kemba 20 minutes each and Mcbride only 3 in 2 preseason games is not legit.

    73. E, all merc’d out: Bingo. And it’s worse because the entire draft, including The Incineration, was built and premised around the reality that Thibs would just wind up burying the guys anyway. A bunch of us predicted all of this, and it’s come true. They went into the draft at 19 and 21 and came out with nary a guy that Thibs will even play IN THE PRESEASON. This team was not in a position to do that and no amount of Z’s tone policing and Karen-ing the commentary over Thibs can change this underlying reality. It’s stark and plain as day.

      Silly stuff. If you are complaining about who the Knicks drafted, or how they drafted them, sure. But the arrogance in suggesting that they drafted worse players on purpose so that they wouldn’t have to worry about giving them minutes and disrupting the rotation is just dumb. Like a coach who is more concerned with winning than any coach in the league would want the team to pass on the best players available just so he wouldn’t have to worry about burying them in the preseason and regular season.

      That could be the dumbest thing you ever said, and that’s saying something!

    74. Deuce McBride was a second round pick. They had two first round picks, at 19 and 21. The conversation shouldn’t even just be “Why won’t Thibs play Deuce and Grimes in the preseason?,” it should be “How much did Thibs’s influence and preferences result in going into the draft at 19 and 21 and coming out of that with Quentin Grimes?” (The answer, from all indications is — “way too much.”)

      The Wiz preseason game is just the natural culmination of what came before and you can’t fruitfully discuss the Wiz preseason game without talking about what came before.

    75. JK47: Straw man. Nobody is saying either of these things. Of course getting >0 preseason minutes is better than getting 0 preseason minutes. It’s just that it’s a short preseason, and Thibs has obviously made the calculation that he wants to use those minutes for other things.

      This “Thibs has obviously made the calculation….” rhetorical construction is where these discussions always wind up and it’s kind of bizarre. Everyone knows and doesn’t need to be reminded that Thibs went through some kind of thought process to get to where he got; we’re just saying those calculations and that thought process are lacking.

    76. #banal_lyrics# #roman_sword_and_sandal# #astrology#
      When the rook is in the Doggo’s House
      And exroster aligns with Mavs
      Then peace will guide the planets
      And love will steer the stars
      This is the dawning of the age of Thibserius

    77. E, all merc’d out:
      Deuce McBride was a second round pick.They had two first round picks, at 19 and 21.The conversation shouldn’t even just be “Why won’t Thibs play Deuce and Grimes in the preseason?,” it should be “How much did Thibs’s influence and preferences result in going into the draft at 19 and 21 and coming out of that with Quentin Grimes?”(The answer, from all indications is — “way too much.”)

      The Wiz preseason game is just the natural culmination of what came before and you can’t fruitfully discuss the Wiz preseason game without talking about what came before.

      E is in fine preseason form, just like he was last year. How long was it before he disappeared in shame after every ominous preseason comment he posted about Thibs and the Knicks FO turned out to be laughably wrong? E, why don’t you turn the clock back a year and see for yourself?

      But now E’s all credible and shit. Take him seroiously, folks, very seriously!

    78. Personally I love Thibs’ coaching and don’t have any problem with preseason minutes.
      My biggest disappointment of his nyk coaching so far was last season’s lack of speedy adjustments during the atl-nyk playoffs.
      I felt that he preferred to lose with dignity and Not try to win with experimentation.
      Of course that’s the way i saw things and NOT the Ultimate truth.

    79. Ad hominem attacks typically say more about the attacker than the attacked, but that aside, it’s kind of funny that Z has somehow morphed “being right about a whole bunch of stuff about Thibs” into being “laughably wrong.”

      Thibs in fact did earn the team a bunch of hollow wins on the backs of vets that wound up hurting the franchise’s draft position.

      Thibs in fact was outcoached in the playoffs.

      Thibs in fact showed a startling lack of imagination and capacity to adjust in the playoffs.

      You in fact can’t waste any possessions in the playoffs.

      Thibs in fact did waste possessions in the playoffs with Elfrid Payton. (Which cost the team Game 1.)

      Thibs did in fact play Immanuel Quickley too few minutes.

      Thibs did in fact run Derrick Rose into the ground by Game 5.

      The Knicks in fact did premise and center their 2021 draft around the fact that Thibs doesn’t really want to play young players.

      Etc, etc. (*)

      To paraphrase the old country tune– if being that right is wrong, I don’t want to be right.

      (*) And of course, it was hardly I alone who said these things along the way.

    80. And finally: No, practice isn’t a substitute for games. In all sports at all levels there are guys who are meh in practice yet still great in games, and conversely there are guys who are great in practice and meh in games. This happens all the time. When you get to the major league level, it happens even more. You don’t finalize your opinion of how Deuce McBride will play in NBA games by how he practices; to do that, you need to see Deuce McBride play in NBA games. The preseason afford normal coaches the perfect opportunity to gather this data point.

      This blatantly obvious fact really doesn’t need re-litigation. Everyone knows it. The only reason it’s being re-litigated here is because stubborn ol’ Thibs needs some defendin’.

    81. Re: Thibs and the Atlanta series – I am not sure that the perfect combination of Red Holtzman, Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich, and John Wooden would have materially changed that outcome. Playoff basketball is inherently different than regular season basketball, and the things Thibs did to mask our talent deficit during the regular season just didn’t work in the playoffs. Literally – if you were to list the top 10 players (total) from both the Atlanta and NYK rosters that played in that series (ie. no Mitch), that list would probably include 7-8 Hawks and 2-3 Knicks. Like JVG said on the KFS podcast, rosters make the coach, not the other way around. Certainly not in the playoffs. It’s a testament to Thibs that he was able to cobble together a defense good enough to paper over all the offensive deficiencies.

      And re: Payton — While we obviously wanted less Payton, it does bear noticing that we lost game 1 in heartbreaking fashion, then won game 2 with Payton in the starting lineup. THEN, Thibs made the change by benching Payton and we got the doors blown off us in games 3, 4, and 5. In retrospect, it is entirely possible we were all wrong and he was (initially) right in sticking with Payton — not because Payton is good or anything, but because that starting 5 had more familiarity with itself, and our bench unit WAS outplaying their bench unit. Instead, the starting 5 sort of sucked, and the bench fell apart.

      I love Quickley, but it also bears noticing that he, well, sucked in the Atlanta series to the tune of 30% from the field and a TS of 40.2%. He might not have been ready yet.

    82. by the way I am still so interested in the Celtics narrative — ie. they played SO MANY non-NBA players and this year their depth is so much better lalalalalalalala

      Last year the Knicks gave a total of 2712 minutes to the combination of Payton, Knox, Ntilikina (still love you Frank!), and Austin Rivers – 4 players that would/will not come close to making their rotation this year.

      Last year, Boston gave a total of 2064 minutes to a bunch of players who would not make their rotation this year (I’m not counting Semi Ojeleye’s minutes – he’s an NBA rotation player).

      NYK is in year 2 of Thibs’s system – presumably will have more wrinkles / customizations now that the team is familiar with the system. Boston is in year 1 of a rookie coach.

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