Knicks Morning News (2021.09.27)

  • SOURCE SPORTS: New York Knicks Fully Vaccinated Headed Into Training Camp – The Source Magazine
    [thesource.com] — Monday, September 27, 2021 7:00:49 AM

    SOURCE SPORTS: New York Knicks Fully Vaccinated Headed Into Training Camp  The Source Magazine

  • Knicks rookie MJ Walker on Julius Randle’s influence, Tom Thibodeau’s practices – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Monday, September 27, 2021 6:00:18 AM

    Knicks rookie MJ Walker on Julius Randle’s influence, Tom Thibodeau’s practices  New York Post

  • Boston Celtics: Ranking the training camp roster invites’ chance to make Cs – Hardwood Houdini
    [hardwoodhoudini.com] — Monday, September 27, 2021 6:00:00 AM

    Boston Celtics: Ranking the training camp roster invites’ chance to make Cs  Hardwood Houdini

  • Atlantic Notes: Schr?der, Celtics, Raptors, Knicks – hoopsrumors.com
    [www.hoopsrumors.com] — Sunday, September 26, 2021 8:43:00 PM

    Atlantic Notes: Schr?der, Celtics, Raptors, Knicks  hoopsrumors.com

  • This NBA Player Was Ranked Better Than Hornets’ LaMelo Ball And Former Knicks And Current Mavs’ Star Kristaps Porzingis – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Sunday, September 26, 2021 7:40:46 PM

    This NBA Player Was Ranked Better Than Hornets’ LaMelo Ball And Former Knicks And Current Mavs’ Star Kristaps Porzingis  Sports Illustrated

  • NY Knicks: 3 players who could lead team in assists this season – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Sunday, September 26, 2021 6:44:00 PM

    NY Knicks: 3 players who could lead team in assists this season  Daily Knicks

  • Fascinating Knicks experiment comes with only one guarantee – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Sunday, September 26, 2021 6:31:00 PM

    Fascinating Knicks experiment comes with only one guarantee  New York Post 5 storylines to watch heading into Knicks’ training camp  New York Daily NewsNew York Knicks: Key dates as the 2021-22 season approaches  Daily KnicksKnicks’ Tom Thibodeau opens up about Kemba Walker’s health ahead of 2021-22 season  Empire Sports MediaKnicks Notes: Point Guards, Perry, L. Rose, Selden  hoopsrumors.comView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Knicks Fans Try to Bribe Damian Lillard with NFL Sunday Ticket – Blazer’s Edge
    [www.blazersedge.com] — Sunday, September 26, 2021 4:38:37 PM

    Knicks Fans Try to Bribe Damian Lillard with NFL Sunday Ticket  Blazer’s Edge

  • Fat Joe isn’t worried the Nets will become New York City’s team – TalkBasket.net
    [www.talkbasket.net] — Sunday, September 26, 2021 1:28:35 PM

    Fat Joe isn’t worried the Nets will become New York City’s team  TalkBasket.net

  • New York Knicks: Key dates as the 2021-22 season approaches – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Sunday, September 26, 2021 12:00:00 PM

    New York Knicks: Key dates as the 2021-22 season approaches  Daily KnicksFascinating Knicks experiment comes with only one guarantee  New York Post Knicks’ Tom Thibodeau opens up about Kemba Walker’s health ahead of 2021-22 season  Empire Sports Media5 storylines to watch heading into Knicks’ training camp  New York Daily News3 Biggest Questions Facing New York Knicks In 2021-22 NBA Season  NBA Analysis NetworkView Full Coverage on Google News

  • NBA Denies Andrew Wiggins a Religious Exemption From Vaccine – The New York Times
    [www.nytimes.com] — Sunday, September 26, 2021 11:00:06 AM

    NBA Denies Andrew Wiggins a Religious Exemption From Vaccine  The New York Times

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    159 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2021.09.27)”

    1. I thought the headline about Knicks rookie MJ Walker was a series of typos. That they had called Kemba MJ by mistake, and referred to him as a rookie, rather than a new Knick. Then I clicked on the story to check, and the article started with the line: “as training camp begins, the NY Post is placing a spotlight on the knicks’ main characters”. Sure enough there IS a rookie named MJ Walker, and, not only that, he’s apparently an important character on the Knicks roster. Did I miss the MJ Walker and his vital importance to the Knicks playoff hopes thread here? Or was it preempted by the barbells vs Smith machine thread?

    2. MJ Walker played on the summer league team, and I vaguely recall him shooting well from deep. He could potentially be competing for the non-Sims two-way slot we still have open. But no, he does not have vital importance to our playoff hopes.

    3. Strat

      I honestly don’t think a prison study is a good model for general transmission. The advantage is that it’s a controlled environment.

      I agree that It’s not a good stand alone study, but it was consistent with data from Israel (albeit worse because it was prison) that the vaccine loses effectiveness over several months in terms of preventing infection and passing it on to others (and stopping more severe cases more modestly over a longer period) . So it’s extremely likely the NBA is going to have multiple cases this year even if everyone is vaccinated. They should probably keep all the same testing protocols in place.

      If they are having trouble getting 50-60 players to be vaccinated now, wait until multiple players get infected anyway and they understand that they are probably going to need boosters every 6 months because the original vaccination loses effectiveness.

    4. If they are having trouble getting 50-60 players to be vaccinated now, wait until multiple players get infected anyway and they understand that they are probably going to need boosters every 6 months because the original vaccination loses effectiveness.

      or just explain that this is totally fine and not a good reason to avoid taking the vaccine.

    5. Derrick Rose: “(Kemba Walker) is starting (at point guard).” Rose says his role will be to come off the bench and try to impact the game. Rose says he has no concerns about his minutes or role.

      Maybe we have a drama free year? That would be pretty strange but I kind of feel like that is how it might go. (Famous last words)

    6. Derrick Rose: “(Kemba Walker) is starting (at point guard).” Rose says his role will be to come off the bench and try to impact the game. Rose says he has no concerns about his minutes or role.

      “A man’s got to know his limitations.” -Dirty Harry, “Magnum Force”

      Whatever other issues I have with Derrick Rose, he does not seem blinded to the state of his body and his game in a way that, say, C*rm*l* *nth*n* was late in his tenure with us. Rose knows he only has so much tank in the gas for each game, and also that coming off the bench is better for the player he’s become.

      The thing I wonder about is the order of the PG depth chart beyond Kemba and Rose. There will be nights when one of them can’t play, and possibly nights where both can’t. So who’s next in line? IQ? Burks? Deuce?

    7. Some other quotes

      @IanBegley
      Derrick Rose says the Knicks aren’t going to force 3-point attempts but they want to increase their attempts per game this season to 37-40. Last season, Knicks attempted 30 threes per game, 4th lowest total in the league. They had NBA’s 3rd best 3-PT FG%.

      @IanBegley
      Among the things Julius Randle worked on in offseason: “Playing faster” & “making quicker decisions,” he says. Asked about ATL series, Randle says he felt that he could’ve “made the game way more simple.” Also says it’s great that all NYK players are vaccinated, will be available

    8. the vaccine loses effectiveness over several months in terms of preventing infection and passing it on to others (and stopping more severe cases more modestly over a longer period)

      It seems to lose some effectiveness, but that’s because it starts out as one of the most effective vaccines ever invented. You said “If the vaccine is not protecting you from catching it really well anymore (which it’s not), not preventing you from spreading it easily (which it’s not anymore),” which is empirically laughably false.

      All of the real world data on the matter has indicated even after six months, mRNA vaccines are somewhere between 4075% effective in preventing infection (which, obviously, also prevents you from spreading) and still 90%+ effective in preventing severe disease.

      It’s kind of charming when you don’t do any research before saying “Frank Ntilikina is an elite role player” or “the Clippers were more worried about Porzingis than Luka” or whatever but this is a lot more important so please do not fire off fact-free takes.

    9. If you’re not sure how you feel about the anti-vaxxer folks, read this letter to the editor from today’s NY Times:

      To the Editor:

      Re “Shunning Shot, but Lining Up for Antibodies” (front page, Sept. 19):

      I’d like to say that those are my treatments and I want them back. I am a 24-year-old medical student who has suffered from crippling juvenile rheumatoid arthritis since I was 15. After several years of struggling, I was finally started on a monoclonal antibody infusion regimen that has allowed me to live a completely pain-free, normal life for the past five years.

      However, almost two months ago I was informed by my infusion center that all reserves of my medication must go to Covid patients in the hospital (the vast majority of whom are unvaccinated), so I have been forced to return to living in chronic pain on less effective medications.

      As a medical student I am taught that in times of crisis resources must go to the sickest patients, but still, the thought keeps running through my head: They chose not to get vaccinated; I didn’t have a choice not to get arthritis, but now we must both suffer.

      Ellie Cook
      Yakima, Wash.

    10. The thing I wonder about is the order of the PG depth chart beyond Kemba and Rose. There will be nights when one of them can’t play, and possibly nights where both can’t. So who’s next in line? IQ? Burks? Deuce?

      Can’t say about Thibs’ depth chart but when Kemba and Rose are both unavailable I’m reasonably at peace with a backcourt rotation of IQ/Burks/Deuce/E4/RJB/Grimes (with RJB, Burks, E4 and Grimes that can play the three).

      This team is deeeeep and it looks flexible too.

    11. I assume IQ is the default backup PG for when Rose or Kemba is out. You would hope we can get some decent backup minutes out of the IQ, Vildoza, Mcbride camp

    12. Based on IQ’s summer league role it sure seems like they want him to handle spot minutes at PG. Where exactly Deuce fits in is unclear but you just know it’ll be one of those “I can’t believe we worried about that” things between injuries, rest, and underperformance so I’m gonna get out in front and not worry about it now.

    13. Oh, right. I keep forgetting Luca “Why won’t Thibs immediately put him into the playoff rotation?” Vildoza is technically still on the team. My bad.

    14. Oh, right. I keep forgetting Luca “Why won’t Thibs immediately put him into the playoff rotation?” Vildoza is technically still on the team. My bad.

      You’re not the only one, for some unknown reason I always forget that Luca is on the team…

    15. @YaronWeitzman
      Morey asked about what Sixers will do in terms of fines if Simmons continues to no-show:

      “It’s very clearly spelled out in the CBA and his contract what happens.”

      Time to start adding up those fines…

    16. @IanBegley
      Asked about his vaccination status, Kyrie Irving says it’s a private matter. Later asked if he expected to play home games in NYC, Irving again asks media to respect his privacy. He intimates that information about his status/availability will be made public at a later date.

    17. I do an annual NBA bet that includes O/U every single team….. Has anyone here thought how to factor in vaccination % relative to wins?

      Wondering if I should shave a few games off the nets and give the Knicks an extra 3 wins.

    18. thenoblefacehumper,

      I am vaccinated for a reason!!!

      I assure you I’ve read much more on the subject than you have and am staying on top of the latest data better than 99% of Americans that are not directly involved in healthcare related to Covid. I even kept spread sheets for awhile.

      I suggest you read some of the data out of Israel. They are ahead of us in vaccinations and primarily use the RNA vaccine from Pfizer. So they are a good test case for what’s going to happen here eventually. Privately, I was telling friends more than 2 months ago to be very careful again because there was another wave coming to the US that would impact the vaccinated more then expected based on data I was seeing out of Israel. I was right. The US is even using data out of Israel to plan policy here.

      Originally, the vaccine was supposed to end the pandemic phase of the disease and move it into a more isolated outbreak phase despite the expected occasional breakthrough cases.

      When the number of break through cases started rising to much higher levels than expected (apparent in Israel first), they moved the chains to “at least it won’t be spreading it”.

      When they realized that even vaccinated people were spreading it, they moved the chains to “well at least it’s preventing serious illness”.

      When the realized how quickly it loses efficacy overall and that it even loses effectiveness at stopping serious vases over time, they moved the chains to “people need a booster”.

      When they started getting breakthrough cases after the booster shot (which is already happening), they started talking about a 4th booster and variant specific boosters.

      Yeah, it still has good benefits, but success is measured by the ability to prevent serious illness, prevent transmission, prevent infection, duration of effectiveness, and aside effects. On all counts it is UNDERPERFORMING hopes and expectations.

      IMHO, this vaccine is not a solution. They either need a better vaccine or they should use this one to buy time for better therapeutics.

    19. In other tangentially related Knicks news. Zion underwent foot surgery. He is expected to be ready for the start of the season so maybe its no big deal but I honestly believe The Knicks should think long and hard about trading for him. He is an otherworldly talent and his lack of defense doesn’t bother me that much because he is still young and I think unless you’re an elite defensive player it usually takes about 5 years to be good on defense in the NBA. But the injury history concerns me. He missed like half of his freshman year at Duke and almost all of his rookie year and now he’s had foot surgery. I just don’t know if his huge body in that compact of a frame can long term handle the intense speed/agility that he is able to put on it and that is a huge part of what makes him so incredible. I’m worried Zion is going to turn into those “what if” cases of players who are tantaliziningly good when healthy but can’t stay healthy enough to put it all together.

    20. This is why there is vaccine hesitancy among very young very healthy professional athletes. Of course others will argue it’s unrelated (which in some cases will be true) or that on a net basis it’s still beneficial (which it is), but there are lots of reports like this. So if you are young and very healthy, you are at least going to think twice about getting jabbed if you know you can still get it, know you can still spread it, and will need boosters every 6 months.

      https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Tennis_Interviews/102836/jeremy-chardy-i-regret-getting-vaccinated-i-have-series-of-problems-now/

    21. Chardy gave absolutely no detail about his health issues. NONE. Did he have blood clots? Did he manage to catch pneumonia from a vaccine?

    22. He kept a spreadsheet. I mean you can’t argue with that.

      The R number in Israel is currently 0.77. That’s good! The 17% of their population that is unvaccinated is accounting for 90% of the cases in which people are on ventilators. The vaccines are doing pretty good over there.

      There are also a few American pharma companies who are in late stage clinical testing of antiviral drugs that look very promising. Merck, Pfizer and Roche all have antivirals in development that drastically reduce viral load and come in pill form, so they should be much easier to distribute and administer than monoclonal antibodies, which have to be done through IV. Those look like they might be widely available by the end of the year, which would help a lot.

    23. Not sure the context in which those Chardy comments were given, but assuming there was a chance to ask questions, it would be a travesty of reporting to not even get a single symptom.

      Re: Zion, Kyrie, etc — a couple seasons ago I’d say there was a 14% chance that we would have rolled out a lineup that included Kyrie, KD, and Zion (I am assuming that if we had landed Zion in the lottery, that KD/Kyrie would have come). I am not sure in Sept 2021 whether I would prefer that situation or the situation we are actually in…

    24. Is this the craziest NBA media day ever? Letterman trolling KD, Kyrie making a fool of himself, the Embiid/Simmons stuff, and now this:

      @WillGuillory
      Zion: “I am not letting a grown man come to my hotel room and play the piano for me.”

      LOL

    25. Frank: Not sure the context in which those Chardy comments were given, but assuming there was a chance to ask questions, it would be a travesty of reporting to not even get a single symptom.

      I want to remind people that Djokovic’s quack doctor put a piece of wheat bread against Djokovic’s stomach and had him flex his arm to show him that he was gluten-intolerant. These guys are often very smart on-court and not very smart off of it.

    26. “I assure you I’ve read much more on the subject than you have and am staying on top of the latest data better than 99% of Americans that are not directly involved in healthcare related to Covid. I even kept spread sheets for awhile.”

      This is your Guernica.

      I mean, I stand in awe.

      Bravo

      It must be said the completely incorrect thing you posted yesterday does leave your credibility on the topic slightly in doubt but hey, don’t change on us.

    27. He kept a spreadsheet. I mean you can’t argue with that.

      The R number in Israel is currently 0.77. That’s good! The 17% of their population that is unvaccinated is accounting for 90% of the cases in which people are on ventilators. The vaccines are doing pretty good over there.

      I agree with everything you are saying.

      He threw a dig at me, but I guarantee you I am way more up to date on what’s going on than he is.

      The issue is not whether it’s helping. Everyone knows it is. The issue is there are more break though cases than hoped for, efficacy declines quickly, and the break through cases spread it. That means it’s not a solution to the problem. It’s not sustainable to give everyone in the world a booster vaccine every 6 months or every time a more resistant variant pops up.

      It’s probably the therapeutics that might finally break its back (or a better vaccine).

      Since natural immunity has been proven to be very robust (by the Israelis again) and superior to vaccination (we just don’t know how long it lasts yet), at least if there are good and safe therapeutics it’s way less of major risk if you get it, develop natural immunity, and go on with your life. IMO the current vaccines are just buying us time,

      On the other point, these athletes are not idiots. They talk to each other and know what players have gone through when they caught it. Most can also understand the lower risks for someone their age and health status. They read about cases of bad reactions and myocarditis among young males that were vaccinated. It’s natural to be hesitant. They have to convinced the risks are Covid are much greater than the risks of the vaccine even for them and even though the risks of the vaccine are real.

    28. It must be said the completely incorrect thing you posted yesterday does leave your credibility on the topic slightly in doubt but hey, don’t change on us.

      Nothing I posted yesterday was factually wrong. If you think it was, you are not fully informed, misunderstood it, or it was expressed clearly. But is IS correct.

    29. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Chardy gave absolutely no detail about his health issues. NONE. Did he have blood clots? Did he manage to catch pneumonia from a vaccine?

      It doesn’t matter in terms of what other athletes think when they read stuff like this. An aggressive athlete might try to contact him to get details, but reports like this impact perceptions. If you are an NBA player and read that, you are going to think twice before getting jabbed. That’s the point.

    30. Yeah, and Nicki Minaj said she had a cousin of a cousin of a friend of an acquaintance who got elephantitis of the nutsack from taking the vaccine. Thanks for explaining vaccine misinformation and conjecture to us, strat.

    31. Deeefense: Nothing I posted yesterday was factually wrong. If you think it was, you are not fully informed, misunderstood it, or it was expressed clearly. But is IS correct.

      Just to be clear on this, the data you often see in the US press is what’s going on in the US now.

      The US is about 2 months (give or take) behind the developments and knowledge coming out of Israel because they vaccinated their population sooner and more thoroughly than we did. That’s what I am looking at to inform my decision making and opinions now. Now, they are already well into their booster program and have had so many infections among remaining unvaccinated (who now have natural immunity), that’s why things seem to be improving. But they are also already talking about a 4th booster because of break though and even some serious cases among booster patients. This is not a solution.

    32. He threw a dig at me, but I guarantee you I am way more up to date on what’s going on than he is.

      Sorry Strat, I didn’t mean to be rude. It’s just a very “Strat” thing to say “I kept a spreadsheet.” Very on-brand. I’m here for it though. You do you, my man.

    33. I just want to state that I’m so pleased with this team the Knicks FO put together and am very glad we aren’t fielding a Kyrie-led team.

    34. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Yeah, and Nicki Minaj said she had a cousin of a cousin of a friend of an acquaintance who got elephantitis of the nutsack from taking the vaccine. Thanks for explaining vaccine misinformation and conjecture to us, strat.

      I think that case might be a bit different than a professional athlete saying there is a noticeable difference post vaccination. :-)

      I may have had a negative reaction to the vaccine. In my first 62 years on earth you can probably count the number of times I’ve been bruised (black and blue) using just my fingers. I’ve been bruised 6 times since being vaccinated and none of the blows was very hard or serious. Twice I was mildly bruised on both forearms just from carrying heavy packages. I intend to tell my doctor soon if it continues.

      Is it related? Who the hell knows, but there are other very similar reports.

      I’ve had a mild case of tinnitus in one ear for the last 10 years or so. Right after vaccination it got WAY worse, my hearing declined slightly, and then it slowly improved over about a month or two. It’s still not 100% back to the way it was, but it’s at least tolerable again.

      Is it related? Who the hell knows, but there are other very similar reports.

      Both will be mentioned to my doctor at my next physical or sooner depending on symptoms.

    35. The thing I wonder about is the order of the PG depth chart beyond Kemba and Rose.

      this is far down my list of concerns. not that they don’t have huge injury risk, but we are, oddly, overstuffed with shot creation. that plus the fact that thibs runs rather pedestrian offenses ends up in a situation where we are way less reliant on a pg playmaker than many teams. thibs is perfectly happy just letting someone else do their thing without a frill or misdirection to be found. we have all the returning options — randle, burks, quickley and to some extent rj, but now we also have fournier for bullock. that’s a ton. too much, probably, in terms of diminishing marginal returns when everyone’s healthy (altho at least many of them also provide spacing). a lot of our apparent rose-reliance last year was more about how terrible payton was. in the 518 mins we played last year without a “real” pg (no payton, rose, rivers, dsj or frank), our offense was actually way better. now, there is a world in which the kemba/mitch pnr revives his tragically demoted roll game and rj steps up his off ball cut repetoire — those kind of advances are likely going to need someone like kemba, in particular, to foot the bill. but those are fairly luxurious worries.

      my top two worries are defensive regression and whether we will struggle to maximize randle’s overall value with our current roster and thibs’ offensive m.o. in the event his outside shot isn’t falling.

    36. JK47: Sorry Strat, I didn’t mean to be rude. It’s just a very “Strat” thing to say “I kept a spreadsheet.” Very on-brand. I’m here for it though. You do you, my man.

      Thanks.

      I wasn’t sure how to counter the implication that I was posting ignorant information other than to say, “look I’m so serious about being informed I’m crazy enough to keep spreadsheets”. I’m not saying I am such an expert my spreadsheet should have been informing the FDA or Fauci. lmao But it was good enough for me to see and verify the trends I was reading about in Israel and inform my friend they should adjust their behavior because they had no idea what was going on based on the US press.

    37. That’s what I am looking at to inform my decision making and opinions now. Now, they are already well into their booster program and have had so many infections among remaining unvaccinated (who now have natural immunity), that’s why things seem to be improving. But they are also already talking about a 4th booster because of break though and even some serious cases among booster patients. This is not a solution.

      I think you have to be willfully ignorant to say that about vaccines that “this is not a solution”. What does that even mean? Were you anywhere near NYC in March-June 2020? This is like a man dying of thirst in the desert and when given water, says, “I’m sorry, I really prefer Evian not Aquafina”. I mean, come on.

      The truth is – the vaccines work unbelievably well. They were deployed (NOT developed) in record time, there have been like 3 billion doses given with remarkably few side effects, and are still like 90+% protective against severe illness at least up to 6-8 months after the 2nd dose of Pfizer. If you think a vaccine that is that effective for 6-8 months isn’t A solution, then I don’t know what to say.

      The problem is not the vaccine. The problem is the unvaccinated. Variants emerge in unvaccinated populations. If you had 80-90% (natural or vaccinated) immunity, you wouldn’t see much in the way of variants because they’d have nowhere to go. Unvaccinated people think they’re smarter than everyone else when in fact they are just prolonging the problem for everyone.

      So what IS THE solution ? It’s people getting vaccinated. It’s the companies working on pills to treat covid. It’s coming up with a nasal vaccine so the port of entry is protected. But if everyone had gotten vaccinated when they could’ve, this delta wave would be just a mild bump. (And if you hadn’t noticed, there’s barely been a bump in the most highly vaccinated parts of the country).

    38. Case in point – look at Yale Undergrad:

      Vaccinations required unless you are exempted.
      Even vaccinated students require weekly testing.
      99.4% of Yale undergrads are vaccinated.
      Zero cases of covid amongst Yale undergrads – and that’s WITH weekly testing.

      Brandeis has similar policy – 95% of students are vaccinated and 97% of faculty/staff are vaccinated. They have 0.06% test positivity rate which is 1/40th the positive test rate for Massachusetts (2.5%), which is actually 1/3 the national average rate (because, of course Massachusetts has the 5th highest vaccination rate in the country).

    39. “If the vaccine is not protecting you from catching it really well anymore (which it’s not), not preventing you from spreading it easily (which it’s not anymore)” Strat

      Strat – This is simply not correct. Not remotely. I await a full retraction (I mean, not really, but it sounds good.)

      Being vaccinated protects you from getting infected “really well” and therefore prevents you from spreading it “really well.” Evidence indicates that vaccinated people with breakthrough cases also have lower viral loads and are contagious for shorter periods of time.

      Only .33% of fully vaccinated New Yorkers have been diagnosed with COVID-19. The vaccines are working marvelously well to prevent infection, transmission, and hospitalization. Saying anything else is, at best, highly misleading.

    40. That said – I think a very reasonable middle ground for the NBA is to accept double-vaccination OR proof of natural immunity (ie. previously infected). Data is pretty reasonable that natural immunity protects well against Delta.

    41. We have the lowest Covid transmission rate of all 50 states in California.

      We have a high vaccination rate, and in our major population centers we have almost universal masking. Everybody complies with masking and distancing without making a stink, except for some occasional assholes in Orange County. There’s universal masking in schools. The only places in California that have high transmission rates are the places you’d expect– sparsely populated farm counties that get their medical information from Laura Ingraham.

      This is a big reason why the recall of Newsom failed. We have done a pretty damn good job with the Delta variant, and learned some lessons from the first wave.

    42. @espn_macmahon
      Jason Kidd says he expects Kristaps Porzingis to start at power forward, not center. Wants Porzingis to “be a basketball player” — feel free to put the ball on the floor, take midrange shots and “not be limited to shooting 3s.”

      So this is going great.

    43. It’s a bit strange that people think Chardy is the one obligated to prove anything to anyone. How does that calculus work, exactly?

      I’m pro-science and double Moderna vaxxed. That said, if I was a 25 year old pro tennis player, I’d absolutely have second thoughts about putting something in my body I wasn’t 100% convinced I should put in my body. The survival rate of COVID for a 25 year old tennis player with no comorbidities is probably 99.999%. Why put something in my body to gain an extra .001%?

      It’s not even that I disagree with the objective of maximizing the vaxxed, but I completely dissent from the fanatic portion of that idea in which a pro tennis player gets shouted down and hooted down and asked to prove shit to the fanatics when he says he hasn’t felt great since getting the shot. Again, how does that calculus compute at all? On what basis is he deemed a prima facie liar? Because dumb-ass political tribalism? I think not.

      It’s just very unfortunate this whole thing has become such a matter of political self-identity, but that’s the US in 2021.

      Owen: Being vaccinated protects you from getting infected “really well” and therefore prevents you from spreading it “really well.”

      It improves that metric by about 50% or thereabouts. “Really well” is a flexible term, so if 50% fits, so be it. Strat’s general thesis that the vaccines have underperformed in terms of preventing infection and spread is essentially true, particularly when we realize that part of that 50% improvement is offset by the fact that a vaxxed person is more likely to be asymptomatic — that’s what the vaccine does — and then goes out in public not knowing he/she’s carrying a big ol’ viral load. Anyone who thinks their vax made them a non-spreader or a non-vector is simply deluded. It didn’t.

    44. The Moderna shots I got are still not to this day FDA-approved. There was an emergency afoot and so I very willingly got the shots and don’t really have any second thoughts, but unless you think the FDA has been there for shits and giggles the last 60 or so years, at some point actual … you know … FDA approval … starts to matter.

      No Moderna booster shot has even been FDA-considered at this point, much less approved. A panel of scientists rejected full public Pfizer boosters 16-3. That starts to matter at some point, and maybe it already matters.

    45. If I was a 25 year old athlete, I’d still choose the vaccine over a possible Covid infection simply because of the risks of long Covid. Some people who don’t even have very severe cases get some fucked up long Covid side effects. I’m gonna go ahead and guess that brain fog and severe depression probably don’t have a great effect on your ability to play world class tennis.

    46. JK47:
      If I was a 25 year old athlete, I’d still choose the vaccine over a possible Covid infection simply because of the risks of long Covid. Some people who don’t even have very severe cases get some fucked up long Covid side effects. I’m gonna go ahead and guess that brain fog and severe depression probably don’t have a great effect on your ability to play world class tennis.

      Long COVID cases are few and far between, but in any event, it’s not your decision and you’re not in fact a 25 year old professional athlete. It’s their decision.

      And in any event, this isn’t the Chardy situation. Chardy got vaxxed.

    47. E – This is not correct.

      The best CDC data shows that the unvaccinated are about 5 times as likely to get infected by the Delta variant, significantly more likely than that to transmit, and roughly 30 times more likely to be hospitalized.

      The vaccines are about 50% as successful at protecting against infection by the Delta variant than they were against the previous variants. But they still remain incredibly effective relative to being unvaccinated.

    48. Oxford data is better and more robust, and the number is 40-60%. The hospitalization number is irrelevant; everyone paying attention knows that getting the vaccine massively reduces your chance of getting bad symptoms, getting hospitalized, or dying. That said, there are some demographics where those risks are already infinitesimally low.

      The other one everyone paying attention knows is that the viral load of the infected vaccinated and the infected unvaccinated are essentially the same.

    49. More fun from other team’s training camps:

      @RealQuintonMayo
      I would ask the question to those who are getting vaccinated ‘why are you still getting COVID?’

      – Bradley Beal

    50. I have some sympathy, I hate to say it, with people who have already had a confirmed case of Covid like Bradley Beal. He can at least make the case the case that he poses less risk than people who have not had Covid and who have been vaccinated. The evidence would back him up on that.

      E – Please share a link to the Oxford data showing that.

    51. Deeefense: I agree with everything you are saying.

      He threw a dig at me,but I guarantee you I am way more up to date on what’s going on than he is.

      The issue is not whether it’s helping.Everyone knows it is.The issue is there are more break though cases than hoped for, efficacy declines quickly, and the break through cases spread it. That means it’s not a solution to the problem.It’s not sustainable to give everyone in the world abooster vaccine every 6 months or every time a more resistant variant pops up.

      It’s probably the therapeutics that might finally break its back (or a better vaccine).

      Since natural immunity has been proven to be very robust (by the Israelis again) and superior to vaccination (we just don’t know how long it lasts yet), at least if there are good and safe therapeutics it’s way less of major risk if you get it, develop natural immunity, and go on with your life.IMO the current vaccines are just buying us time,

      On the other point, these athletes are not idiots.They talk to each other and know what players have gone through when they caught it.Most can also understand the lower risks for someone their age and health status. They read about cases of bad reactions and myocarditis among young males that were vaccinated.It’s natural to be hesitant. They have to convinced the risks are Covid are much greater than the risks of the vaccine even for them and even though the risks of the vaccine are real.

      Dr. Harvey Riche, epidemiologist from Yale just said that he believes that 70% of the population as a whole has already contracted Covid-19 and has robust natural immunity. Shouldn’t that fact be taken into consideration when enforcing vaccine mandates? He also said that vaccinating children is ridiculous. Also, when did we start believing everything that the government tells us?

    52. DudeInKnicksTown: Dr. Harvey Riche, epidemiologist from Yale just said that he believes that 70% of the US population as a whole has already contracted Covid-19 and has robust natural immunity. Shouldn’t that fact be taken into consideration when enforcing vaccine mandates? He also said that vaccinating children is ridiculous. Also, when did we start believing everything that the government tells us?

    53. The survival rate of COVID for a 25 year old tennis player with no comorbidities is probably 99.999%. Why put something in my body to gain an extra .001%?

      Because you’re not the only person in the world and you give a shit about other people.

    54. Dr. Harvey Risch was a big supporter of the quin and appears on the Ingraham Angle a lot.

      Also, I hope that Oxford study was not the one that RFK Jr went crazy about.

    55. According to a serious study in Israel, natural immunity is significantly stronger than vaxxed immunity — 13 times, I think is the number.

      If I was a 25 year old pro tennis player who had already had a confirmed case of COVID, the odds that I would then pile a vax and side effects on top of that would be the functional equivalent of zero. I’d of course pay attention to the science on velocity of waning and the like, and keep an open mind. But if I was six months out from COVID? Highly doubtful.

    56. Hubert: Because you’re not the only person in the world and you give a shit about other people.

      But then I’d realize that the vaxxed are spreading COVID as well, and at that point we circle back to the same point as we started.

      The vaxxed are getting and spreading COVID. Scientific, undeniable fact. If they weren’t, that would be a scientific, undeniable fact, too — but that isn’t where the science is now. Maybe there will be a true vaccine that will put the science there in our future. I wish it was here now — but it isn’t.

    57. Owen:
      Dr. Harvey Risch was a big supporter of the quin and appears on the Ingraham Angle a lot.

      And that means that natural immunity isn’t real and shouldn’t be considered?

    58. Dr. Harvey Riche, epidemiologist from Yale just said that he believes that 70% of the US population as a whole has already contracted Covid-19 and has robust natural immunity. Shouldn’t that fact be taken into consideration when enforcing vaccine mandates? He also said that vaccinating children is ridiculous. Also, when did we start believing everything that the government tells us?

      Why listen to what scientific consensus tells us when we can cherry pick one dude who appeals to my sense of confirmation bias?

    59. If you were concerned about catching Covid, would you rather be standing next to someone who was double vaxxed 6 months ago or someone who has natural immunity?

    60. When the unvaxxed get COVID, especially Delta, they’re very, very often highly symptomatic. That keeps them from going out and spreading it, and doubly so if they get hospitalized and quadruply so if they get hospitalized and die.

      When the vaxxed get COVID, they have basically the same viral load, but they’re often asymptomatic and so they go out in public unknowingly. That phenomenon offsets a likely significant chunk of the 50% lower propensity to get infected in the first place and has unquestionably contributed significantly to the Delta case wave. If the unvaxxed had gotten vaccinated, as the vast majority of them should have, that spread wouldn’t matter as much, but that’s a different matter than the primary spread itself.

    61. ***if I was a 25 year old pro tennis player, I’d absolutely have second thoughts about putting something in my body I wasn’t 100% convinced I should put in my body.***

      I don’t know, 25 year old Karl-Anthony Towns had a horrible case of it, and 23 year old Jason Tatum struggled with his respiratory for months and months after his bout, which had significant impact on his performance on the court.

      And, beyond that, pro athletes love to put shit in their body, even stuff that they are 100% sure SHOULDN’T be in their body. Forget the steroids and amphetamines. I remember when Manny Ramirez was busted for putting Clomid, an ovulation stimulant derived from the urine of post-menopausal women, into his body.

      But when there’s a global pandemic and 60,000 lives are being lost to it every month, suddenly pro-athlete’s bodies are sacred temples. Haha.

    62. DudeInKnicksTown:
      If you were concerned about catching Covid, would you rather be standing next to someone who was double vaxxed 6 months ago or someone who has natural immunity?

      Waiting.

    63. But then I’d realize that the vaxxed are spreading COVID as well, and at that point we circle back to the same point as we started.

      The vaxxed are getting and spreading COVID. Scientific, undeniable fact. If they weren’t, that would be a scientific, undeniable fact, too — but that isn’t where the science is now. Maybe there will be a true vaccine that will put the science there in our future. I wish it was here now — but it isn’t.

      the vaxxed are not spreading it at the same rate as the unvaxxed.

      the vaxxed are not carrying the same viral loads as the unvaxxed.

      and the vaxxed are not draining all the resources of our health care system the way the unvaxxed are.

      those, too, are undeniable scientific facts.

      it is willfully ignorant and grossly dishonest to act like there is no difference between vaxxed and unvaxxed just because “vaccinated people can spread it, too.”

      it’s as stupid as saying why sign kevin durant bc hubert can play basketball, too.

    64. It is willfully ignorant, stupid and grossly dishonest to ignore all of the millions of people who have natural immunity too.

    65. E, all merc’d out: When the unvaxxed get COVID, especially Delta, they’re very, very often highly symptomatic. That keeps them from going out and spreading it, and doubly so if they get hospitalized and quadruply so if they get hospitalized and die.

      No, there is a period before symptoms develop where infected people are spreading the disease unknowingly. In that case you rely on masks and social distance.

    66. Like I said, the NBA better not change any of their testing and other Covid related protocols even if they get remaining 50-60 players to vaccinate.

      2021 is looking uncomfortably like 2020. Poets&Quants has learned that Harvard Business School is going back to remote instruction for all first-year MBA students courses after a “steady rise in breakthrough infections” among students. The move is effective this week, September 27 to October 3.

      Some second-year courses also will be taught remotely this week, the school announced.

      Harvard’s Covid-19 dashboard currently shows that most of the 68 positive tests among Harvard students and staff between Sept. 20 and Sept. 24 were among graduate students. The site does not break out the numbers by school, but adds that 95% of all students and 96% of professors and staff are fully vaccinated.

      https://finance.yahoo.com/news/breaking-harvard-business-school-moves-130846644.html

    67. iserp: In that case you rely on masks and social distance.

      This. Dude, I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but also honest. I’m totally vaxxed and I’m treating you all like the viral-laden zombies you might be.

    68. iserp: No, there is a period before symptoms develop where infected people are spreading the disease unknowingly. In that case you rely on masks and social distance.

      Have you taken notice that MSG will be opening soon with no masks and no social distancing? (*) Under any serious definition, it’s shaping up to be a “superspreader” atmosphere. (And the ubiquitous hypo from pre-vaccine days still holds — people will get infections and potentially spread them to grandma. The vaccines have not changed that.)

      I guess as a country we’ve just decided to press on regardless — at least when it comes to Big Sport. Whether you think that’s good or bad is a matter of perspective, but this is again a matter of scientific fact.

      (*) Technically, it opened up last night for a Rangers preseason tilt.

    69. When the unvaxxed get COVID, especially Delta, they’re very, very often highly symptomatic. That keeps them from going out and spreading it, and doubly so if they get hospitalized and quadruply so if they get hospitalized and die.

      When the vaxxed get COVID, they have basically the same viral load, but they’re often asymptomatic and so they go out in public unknowingly. That phenomenon offsets a likely significant chunk of the 50% lower propensity to get infected in the first place and has unquestionably contributed significantly to the Delta case wave. If the unvaxxed had gotten vaccinated, as the vast majority of them should have, that spread wouldn’t matter as much, but that’s a different matter than the primary spread itself.

      https://youtu.be/2sRS1dwCotw

    70. DudeInKnicksTown:
      It is willfully ignorant, stupid and grossly dishonest to ignore all of the millions of people who have natural immunity too.

      The last report I saw suggested that around 83% or more of the US population over 16 years of age has either been vaccinated or has antibodies from being infected. That was based on blood donor testing that was done around the country. I saw that report around 2 weeks ago. The data also had to be dated at that time because it takes awhile to compile studies like that. So the number is higher now given that total vaccinations and cases are both higher now.

      I find it kind of shocking we aren’t seeing some noticeable improvement yet in the numbers unless there’s a slow shift underway towards more of the cases being breakthrough than unvaccinated.

      I should add that among those that were vaccinated. some also had the virus. I have many friends like that.

      Here’s the link with some details.

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9952555/CDC-study-estimates-80-Americans-protected-COVID-19.html

    71. Hubert: the vaxxed are not spreading it at the same rate as the unvaxxed.

      the vaxxed are not carrying the same viral loads as the unvaxxed.

      and the vaxxed are not draining all the resources of our health care system the way the unvaxxed are.

      those, too, are undeniable scientific facts.

      it is willfully ignorant and grossly dishonest to act like there is no difference between vaxxed and unvaxxed just because “vaccinated people can spread it, too.”

      it’s as stupid as saying why sign kevin durant bc hubert can play basketball, too.

      The first isn’t anything close to “scientific fact.” It might not even be “fact.” An individual vaxxed person, yes, less likely. The community of the vaxxed vs. unvaxxed — not known.

      The science on the second is the opposite of what you wrote. Viral loads essentially equal.

      The third isn’t science at all, but a question of resources.

      As to the fourth, there’s no sense in which I’ve ever suggested or even hinted that there is “no difference,” scientifically or ethically, between the vaxxed and unvaxxed. This is basically the point in these conversations where the fanatics get mad at the non-fanatics for not being fanatic enough when there’s a wide range of underlying agreement. Fact of internet life; we saw it on KB with the “America was founded on slavery” thing a few months back.

    72. The Israeli study that everybody is quoting has still not been peer reviewed. It’s a preprint, and those should be taken with a grain of salt until peer review has been done.

      This study went viral on Instagram and generated lots of clickbait, but it’s pretty frustrating seeing how people latch onto preprints that reinforce a narrative they already believe, and how often that leads to bad public health decisions. The whole Ivermectin craze started because some people got really excited about a preprint that was later proven to be a product of ridiculously shoddy and possibly forged research, for example.

      https://www.factcheck.org/2021/09/scicheck-instagram-post-missing-context-about-israeli-study-on-covid-19-natural-immunity/

    73. JK47: The Israeli study that everybody is quoting has still not been peer reviewed. It’s a preprint, and those should be taken with a grain of salt until peer review has been done.

      And the FDA still hasn’t approved the vaccines, but no “grain of salt” there?

      it’s pretty frustrating seeing how people latch onto preprints that reinforce a narrative they already believe,

      You only think that covers me because you find it hard to think in non-tribal terms wherein “if he’s not fully in my tribe, he’s in the other tribe.”

      I don’t really do narratives, to a great extent. There’s no sense in which I’m doing a narrative here. The Israeli study exists. Peer review may change its conclusions.

    74. JK47: The whole Ivermectin craze started because some people got really excited about a preprint that was later proven to be a product of ridiculously shoddy and possibly forged research, for example.

      The Israeli study doesn’t have a thing to do with Ivermectin.

    75. E, all merc’d out: The first isn’t anything close to “scientific fact.”It might not even be “fact.”An individual vaxxed person, yes, less likely.The community of the vaxxed vs. unvaxxed — not known.

      The science on the second is the opposite of what you wrote.Viral loads essentially equal.

      The third isn’t science at all, but a question of resources.

      As to the fourth, there’s no sense in which I’ve ever suggested or even hinted that there is “no difference,” scientifically or ethically, between the vaxxed and unvaxxed.This is basically the point in these conversations where the fanatics get mad at the non-fanatics for not being fanatic enough when there’s a wide range of underlying agreement.Fact of internet life; we saw it on KB with the “America was founded on slavery” thing a few months back.

      1000% accurate.

    76. We’re pretty far down the rabbit hole here. As far as I can tell the two camps in this argument are anti-anti-Vaxers and anti-anti-anti-Vaxers? Do I have that right?

    77. Deeefense: Absolutely true that vaccine still has multiple benefits, but at a certain point vaccinations and regular boosters for the entire global population is not sustainable. The path we are on does not look nearly as promising as the initial hype and hope.

      What’s happened is that the vaccinated have lost much of their promise of “owning the cons” given what’s happened empirically. They wanted the clear delineation they would have gotten if spread and infection in the vaxxed had been really, really low and now they’re bummed and in denial that the hard edge they wanted is muddled and so they lash out at people who just cite the empirical facts. The vaxxed have done their duty to the community, the unvaxxed haven’t. The vaxxed haven’t free ridden, the unvaxxed have. The vaxxed aren’t stupid fools who didn’t take a vaccine so they could “own the libs.” The unvaxxed are.

      But even that’s not good enough, it seems.

      The better thing to do is to not get into the whole internet “owning” business in the first place.

    78. E, all merc’d out: Have you taken notice that MSG will be opening soon with no masks and no social distancing? (*) Under any serious definition, it’s shaping up to be a “superspreader” atmosphere. (And the ubiquitous hypo from pre-vaccine days still holds — people will get infections and potentially spread them to grandma. The vaccines have not changed that.)

      So… are you arguing that MSG should be kept closed and the US should enforce social distancing rules as before (well, I am not really sure how US regulations are) so that people get the choice to have the vaccine or not? I mean, it is a fair stance, but in this case you are forcing the regulations on vaccinated people and you are not progressing towards normalcy.

    79. This is basically the point in these conversations where the fanatics get mad at the non-fanatics for not being fanatic enough when there’s a wide range of underlying agreement.

      I want to make a comment on this because I didn’t even read some of the responses to my earlier posts because I could see we were already on that path and I wanted to avoid that kind of nonsense.

      I am vaccinated, pro vaccination, think it has been a huge benefit to many people, and will probably get the booster at 6 months if I am eligible (though I am a little leery and may go for a CBC and physical first because of my recent easy bruising ).

      Despite that, I fully comprehend the hesitancy of young healthy professional athletes given current data, think the vaccine has been a disappointment, think we are at the stage where they keep moving the chain so they can keep claiming success, and think the side effects are probably understated.

      You can be pro vaccine and still appreciate the issues and problems.

      No one wants to tell the full unbiased truth truth because they are afraid it will just fuel the anti vaccination mindset. But it is what it is. The vaccine is helping, but it’s not a good long term answer.

    80. iserp: So… are you arguing that MSG should be kept closed and the US should enforce social distancing rules as before (well, I am not really sure how US regulations are) so that people get the choice to have the vaccine or not? I mean, it is a fair stance, but in this case you are forcing the regulations on vaccinated people and you are not progressing towards normalcy.

      I was more musing on how situations often do a 180 without a lot of thought or serious consideration of where things were just a few months ago, and I guess just pointing it out to people.

    81. the vaccine has been a disappointment

      In Spain the vaccine is seen as a great success. In the last wave, high number of cases did not translate to high ICU occupation nor deaths, and the new cases are very low, even though there are lots of people doing mostly normal life (still masks indoor).

    82. iserp: In Spain the vaccine is seen as a great success. In the last wave, high number of cases did not translate to high ICU occupation nor deaths, and the new cases are very low, even though there are lots of people doing mostly normal life (still masks indoor).

    83. What’s happened is that the vaccinated have lost much of their promise of “owning the cons” given what’s happened empirically.

      “Owning the cons” is not remotely important to me and I in fact wish fewer conservative people were needlessly dying of a disease we have an incredible vaccine for, but…the cons are getting owned.

    84. Re: viral loads, it’s still unclear if vaccinated people carry the same amount initially (seems like it’s probably lower for the vaccinated, but that data is pre-Delta so I’ll set it aside for the sake of argument), but it’s completely undisputed that it goes down far more quickly among vaccinated people.

      That obviously has huge implications for both severity and transmissibility, but I would ignore it too if I was a contrarian for the sake of it.

    85. Deeefense: I am vaccinated, pro vaccination, think it has been a huge benefit to many people, and will probably get the booster at 6 months if I am eligible (though I am a little leery and may go for a CBC and physical first because of my recent easy bruising ).

      As am I. Honestly, I’m not sure where I am on boosters. I got Moderna. I had significant side effects. The latest Moderna data is that it’s waned a mere 1% which isn’t even close to enough to justify another shot and another round of side effects.

      Moreover, the climate has changed a bit. Most of got vaccinated in what I’ll call a “nonpolitical period.” Trump was gone, Biden was a few weeks in, no one really had a vested interest in anything other than getting shots into arms. That’s now changed and we have a president who has invested a lot of political capital into “stopping COVID.” So from a Forbes/NYT story in late July saying the vaccines should be good for years, we now have “well you need boosters in 8 months” and then Fauci said “five months.” There’s just a little too much politics involved for my taste. Luckily, we have as a baseline the pure expert panel that turned down widespread Pfizer a week or so ago by a wide margin. Any deviation from that has a high bar in my eye and that’s what I’ll be looking for.

      We also have the non-FDA approval. No big deal in April-ish, given the emergency circumstances and the EUA and the utter imperative to stop this awful scourge. It’s now 6 months later and now we’re in the booster stage. Certainly the thought of mandated boosters should be a complete non-starter on this record; but OTOH if someone really wants to get one, then go for it.

      So I’m basically at first round mandates, generally ok; booster mandates, no way; personally looking for actual data on how much mine has waned, and whether politics is overriding…

    86. E, all merc’d out: The Israeli study doesn’t have a thing to do with Ivermectin.

      Not what I was saying. There was ANOTHER preprint that turned out to be terrible science that started the Ivermectin craze. My point is that you can’t take preprints as settled science.

    87. @wojespn
      Denver Nuggets forward Michael Porter Jr., has agreed on a five-year designated max extension that could be worth up to $207 million, his agent Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports
      tells ESPN.

    88. Deeefense: The last report I saw suggested that around 83% or more of the US population over 16 years of age has either been vaccinated or has antibodies from being infected.That was based on blood donor testing that was done around the country. I saw that report around 2 weeks ago. The data also had to be dated at that time because it takes awhile to compile studies like that.So the number is higher now given that total vaccinations and cases are both higher now.

      I find it kind of shocking we aren’t seeing some noticeable improvement yet in the numbers unless there’s a slow shift underway towards more of the cases being breakthrough than unvaccinated.

      I should add that among those that were vaccinated. some also had the virus.I have many friends like that.

      Here’s the link with some details.

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9952555/CDC-study-estimates-80-Americans-protected-COVID-19.html

      To simply ignore the fact that a hundred million Americans have powerful natural immunity and to simply treat them as if they’re “unvaxxed” is cognitive dissonance. Barring them from work, restaurants and indoor events is actually criminal. They should not be ignored by the CDC or anyone else.

    89. There are 3 groups to consider in the population. The vaxxed, the unvaxxed and those with natural immunity. The latter group, consisting of somewhere around half the population or more, cannot and should not be ignored.

    90. And the FDA still hasn’t approved the vaccines, but no “grain of salt” there?

      Any yahoo can preprint a scientific study and there are a LOT of them out there. The issue of preprints is a complicated one when it comes to Covid– they have real potential upside but as we saw with the Ivermectin debacle they carry a significant downside as well. The preprint that claimed Ivermectin was a miracle cure for Covid is literally killing people.

    91. Hey, basketball news! Woj:

      Denver Nuggets forward Michael Porter Jr., has agreed on a five-year designated max extension that could be worth up to $207 million, his agent Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tells ESPN.

      Porter Jr., deal is worth $172M unless he reaches the designated max criteria and makes one of the three All-NBA teams this season.

      But how is he at 3-on-3, though? [sobs]

    92. Alan:
      Hey, basketball news! Woj:

      But how is he at 3-on-3, though? [sobs]

      It will never stop being funny to me (sad funny not haha funny) that at that slot they intentionally went for a “high upside pick who had the potential to be a Durant-type scorer” and somehow the guy they picked wasn’t MPJ.

    93. It will never stop being funny to me (sad funny not haha funny) that at that slot they intentionally went for a “high upside pick who had the potential to be a Durant-type scorer” and somehow the guy they picked wasn’t MPJ.

      Me right now.

    94. The Israel study has the serious flaw, as pointed out by the authors, that covid testing is voluntary. The anti-vaxxers are unlikely to voluntarily take covid tests because they don’t trust doctors or don’t think covid is serious enough to get vaccinated. Those are exactly the people unlikely to voluntarily get tested for covid and deflaye the numbers.

      Moreover, the raw numbers between natural immunity and vaccination is miniscule making the ratios appear rather large. Given the propensity of anti-vaxxers to avoid testing likely removes these differences.

      On top of all that, the preprint states that those with natural immunity still receive benefits from also being vaccinated.

      So, no I don’t believe Strat understands the Israeli study he keeps harping on. It certainly doesn’t show any problems with vaccination nor does it “prove” (due to methodological issues acknowledged by the authors) that natural immunity is superior to vaccination. It does show those with natural immunity still benefit from vaccines.

    95. thenoblefacehumper: “Owning the cons” is not remotely important to me and I in fact wish fewer conservative people were needlessly dying of a disease we have an incredible vaccine for, but…the cons are getting owned.

      Anti-mandate politicians are personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. All you have to do is compare the death rate from COVID in states like Texas and Florida to the death rates in states with strong mask mandates and vaccine mandates. You don’t need a detailed scientific study to figure this one out. It’s simple addin’ and subtractin’. You can actually estimate how many more people would be alive in states like Texas, Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, etc. beyond any caveats due to climate, demographics, etc. The governors of these states are directly responsible for the difference in the morbidity and mortality statistics.

      COVID is a deadly disease that kills an unacceptably high percentage of unvaccinated citizens. We mandate vaccines for other viral diseases that are similarly contageous and harmful. Measles. Mumps, Hepatitis. Polio. Meningitis. You can’t work in or attend a public school in NY State without all mandated vaccines. As a result, virtually no one is dying of these diseases.

      I hope pro-vaxx politicians start using stronger language in focusing on the differential death rates. Specific ads like “If Governor XXXX had the same approach to mandating and encouraging COVID restrictions, XXXX number of people would still be alive and healthy.” or “a 9/11 happens in state XXXX every XXX days.”

    96. JK47: Any yahoo can preprint a scientific study and there are a LOT of them out there. The issue of preprints is a complicated one when it comes to Covid– they have real potential upside but as we saw with the Ivermectin debacle they carry a significant downside as well. The preprint that claimed Ivermectin was a miracle cure for Covid is literally killing people.

      One naturally doubts that a study using Maccabi Health data by Maccabi and Tel Aviv U researchers and widely reported in the Israeli press was the work of “yahoos.” Nor was the study opining on the quality of a drug or a medication like Ivermectin. The “non-peer reviewed” while true has all the markings of a technicality. It’s nothing like the Ivermectin situation.

    97. How can natural immunity simply be ignored as if it doesn’t exist? Why should those possessing it, probably 150 million people or more, be treated as ogres or 2nd class citizens?

    98. Strat,

      The article you posted states the CDC thinks we need 95% protection for herd immunity due to the increased infectiousness of Delta. So, no 83% isn’t reassuring nor am I reassured about your research diligence.

    99. Anti-mandate politicians are personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. All you have to do is compare the death rate from COVID in states like Texas and Florida to the death rates in states with strong mask mandates and vaccine mandates.

      New Jersey and NY are second and fifth in COVID death rates, interspersed with three rednecky states. Florida is 10th, Texas is 19th. Florida also skews older. Age is a major factor in COVID deaths.

    100. We mandate vaccines for other viral diseases that are similarly contageous and harmful. Measles. Mumps, Hepatitis. Polio. Meningitis.

      Those vaccines are all FDA approved.

    101. Early Bird:
      Strat,

      The article you posted states the CDC thinks we need 95% protection for herd immunity due to the increased infectiousness of Delta. So, no 83% isn’t reassuring nor am I reassured about your research diligence.

      We’re likely to never have herd immunity for COVID and the Guardian story I linked to at Owen’s behest also says that. We don’t have it for the common cold or the flu, either. COVID is pretty clearly heading toward endemic status, not eradication status. The heads of Denmark and Norway — hardly horse paste aficionados — have said this out loud recently and acted accordingly.

      The wisdom of the probably hopeless effort to eradicate it will be reflected upon by historians for many decades to come.

    102. DudeInKnicksTown:
      How can natural immunity simply be ignored as if it doesn’t exist? Why should those possessing it, probably 150 million people or more, be treated as ogres or 2nd class citizens?

      Maybe we should eliminate seat belt/child seat rules, speed limits, adherence to road markings etc. for naturally good drivers…

    103. E, all merc’d out: New Jersey and NY are second and fifth in COVID death rates, interspersed with three rednecky states.Florida is 10th, Texas is 19th.Florida also skews older.Age is a major factor in COVID deaths.

      One would think that a frequenter of a stats-oriented website would look at rates per 100,000. You know, kinda like per 36 vs per game stats?

      If you did, you would know that the states with the highest death rates per 100,000 are AL, FL, SC, AK, WV, OK, GA, TX, MI, TN.

      The 10 states with the lowest deaths per 100,000 are RI, NH, NE, MA, NY, NJ, WI, CT, CA, MN, CO

      Sense any pattern there? Or are you going to hang your hat on Nebraska being the true believer state?

    104. Yep, I sense a pattern.

      “If you did, you would know that the states with the highest death rates per 100,000 are AL, FL, SC, AK, WV, OK, GA, TX, MI, TN.”

      That’s current daily average, not overall. I guess all the people in New York and New Jersey who died prior to a few days ago don’t count.

      Mississippi, filled with old people and obese people and people with all manner of co-morbidities just passed New Jersey — masked and vaxxed and mandated to the gills — in COVID death rate like three days ago.

    105. E, all merc’d out:
      Apparently Z is blissfully unaware of COVID vaccines beyond Pfizer.

      No, you are blissfully unaware that Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J vaccines have saved thousands of lives and made almost no one seriously ill from side effects. You are blissfully unaware that this pandemic has killed more Americans than the Civil War, or the worst flu pandemic in our nation’s history, or than 15 years worth of automobile accidents. Or callously indifferent to it.

    106. E, all merc’d out: That’s current daily average, not overall.

      So we should count people who died before vaccines were available in determining whether vaccines should be mandated? Especially early on when hospitals were overwhelmed and you couldn’t even get tested if you had symptoms?

    107. Z-man: No, you are blissfully unaware that Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J vaccines have saved thousands of lives and made almost no one seriously ill from side effects.

      I’m totally aware of it, of course, but it’s beside the point that Moderna and J&J haven’t been FDA approved, nor has any booster been FDA approved for general use.

    108. Z-man: So we should count people who died before vaccines were available in determining whether vaccines should be mandated? Especially early on when hospitals were overwhelmed and you couldn’t even get tested if you had symptoms?

      You said strong mask mandates, too, which has nothing to do with vaccines. You may not write carefully, but some of us read carefully.

    109. E, all merc’d out:


      Yep, I sense a pattern.

      “If you did, you would know that the states with the highest death rates per 100,000 are AL, FL, SC, AK, WV, OK, GA, TX, MI, TN.”

      That’s current daily average, not overall.I guess all the people in New York and New Jersey who died prior to a few days ago don’t count.

      Mississippi, filled with old people and obese people and people with all manner of co-morbidities just passed New Jersey — masked and vaxxed and mandated to the gills — in COVID death rate like three days ago.

      And how freaking intellectually dishonest is it to make the discussion about anything other than RIGHT NOW? Do you realize how much of a head start that NJ had over MI, and how big the lead was pre-vaccine? And do you care about how many of those old, obese folks would still be alive and well had they been vaccinated? Or do you just say “Fuck them and their co-morbidities, they got what was coming to them!”?

    110. Z-man: One would think that a frequenter of a stats-oriented website

      One would think that a frequenter of a stats-oriented website would realize that “I CARE ABOUT PEOPLE MORE THAN YOU,” in addition to being untrue … isn’t really an argument.

    111. E, all merc’d out: You said strong mask mandates, too, which has nothing to do with vaccines.You may not write carefully, but some of us read carefully.

      Are you really saying that mask mandates don’t lower COVID transmission rates? Really???

    112. Z-man: And how freaking intellectually dishonest is it to make the discussion about anything other than RIGHT NOW? Do you realize how much of a head start that NJ had over MI, and how big the lead was pre-vaccine? And do you care about how many of those old, obese folks would still be alive and well had they been vaccinated? Or do you just say “Fuck them and their co-morbidities, they got what was coming to them!”?

      So then the answer indeed appears to be, “Yes, the deaths in NY and NJ before a few days ago don’t really count.”

    113. Z-man: Are you really saying that mask mandates don’t lower COVID transmission rates? Really???

      This appears to be a re-reiteration of “All the deaths in NY and NJ until a few days ago don’t really count.”

      20 months into COVID and all the lockdowns and the shutdowns and the emergencies and the school closings and the arena closings and the masks and the six feet aways and the deep cleanings and the office closings and the business closings … but only in the last few days have politicians really gotten the tools to do anything about COVID.

      So sayeth the gospel according to Z.

    114. E, all merc’d out: One would think that a frequenter of a stats-oriented website would realize that “I CARE ABOUT PEOPLE MORE THAN YOU,” in addition to being untrue … isn’t really an argument.

      I provided per-100,000 stats from today (and feel free to check them for 14-day or 28-day averages if you dare) to see if the pattern holds up.

      And yes, when the numbers are so stark, it truly becomes about how much you care about people. When you are perfectly fine with thousands of people dying needlessly every week when there are known, simple solutions widely available, that says something about your character. Hopefully I will never live to see the day when I am so indifferent to easily preventable human suffering.

    115. Z-man: And yes, when the numbers are so stark, it truly becomes about how much you care about people. When you are perfectly fine with thousands of people dying needlessly every week when there are known, simple solutions widely available, that says something about your character. Hopefully I will never live to see the day when I am so indifferent to easily preventable human suffering.

      Looks for all the world like you’re the one who doesn’t care about all the deaths until a few days ago, I wasn’t the one extolling the COVID death rates of places like New York and New Jersey.

    116. E, all merc’d out: This appears to be a re-reiteration of “All the deaths in NY and NJ until a few days ago don’t really count.”

      No, it’s saying that the death rate prior to widely available vaccines and other effective preventative measures is irrelevant to the discussion we are currently having. Yet you insist on being willfully ignorant of the nature of this conversation, which is about what we should be doing currently, with the tools we currently have available, to prevent further death and suffering. Deaths that occurred before those tools were available were very difficult to prevent. NYC was the epicenter of the early epidemic before much was known or any vaccines were available. The fact that states have caught up to NY despite its enormous head start rather than learning from its struggles and taking advantage of science is mind-boggling.

    117. Aaaand once again we see that E argues more dishonestly than just about any poster in the history of this site. And ruruland used to post here.

    118. The Letterman bit was great.

      Nothing too interesting from media day it seems. That’s pretty much how you want media day to go.

      Shooting more 3s will be nice. Should happen naturally just from replacing Elfrid with Kemba and RJ taking 3s like he did in the second half of the year (averaged about 1 more 3pa per game after allstar break compared to season overall). Some more playmakers likely opens up more 3s too.

    119. Z-man: Maybe we should eliminate seat belt/child seat rules, speed limits, adherence to road markings etc. for naturally good drivers…

      You’re being obtuse. Natural immunity affords multiple times the protection than does the vaccination. Ignoring this and treating more than half the population as if they are dangerous to others is insane.

    120. Vaccines – finally a subject that appears robust enough to keep this blog off of Frank Ntilikina for good I hope

    121. DudeInKnicksTown: You’re being obtuse. Natural immunity affords multiple times the protection than does the vaccination. Ignoring this and treating more than half the population as if they are dangerous to others is insane.

      Is there more than this one non-peer reviewed study that confirms this?

    122. . It’s not sustainable to give everyone in the world a booster vaccine every 6 months or every time a more resistant variant pops up.

      People do get flu shots every year

    123. Dudes – I am with you. Natural immunity should probably be enough. The data seems solid and its how similar viruses work. It’s not like this is a particularly novel virus.

      But i am not with you because basically 100 million people in this country think they have had the virus already and most of them haven’t.

      I guess I’d also like to see more peer review of the study.

      But there is also no reason not to take to the vaccine.

    124. Wow this is a heated discussion… I love this community, a lot of people have brought up good/provocative points. As an infectious diseases physician this is kinda my wheelhouse, so while I may have been off the mark about Aaron Nesmith being amazing in the NBA, I feel like I might be useful in this conversation. If anyone has any good-faith questions I’m happy to answer any.

      I’ll say first, the vaccine remains very effective at preventing severe manifestations/hospitalization as I’m sure we can all agree, and in that sense it is a huge success and I would have to disagree with anyone stating otherwise. The best data suggest that the mRNA vaccines (perhaps moderna more so than pfizer) remain effective at preventing infection, including asymptomatic, and thus transmission, including against the delta variant. There’s some degree of waning efficacy, and there’s enough outcomes-driven data to support booster shots for older and high-risk cohorts.

      I would agree that there’s good enough data that natural immunity provides protection, and generally agree with the countries that have given credence to those that can demonstrate serologic immunity or prior positive PCR.

      I don’t think anyone can say with confidence what the future holds. Personally, I think there will be boosters/vaccine updates to combat emerging strains with some frequency, similar to what we see with influenza. I don’t see us eradicating this any time soon. But I wouldn’t consider that a failure of the vaccine. We got seasonal vaccinations for influenza and it prevented a lot of deaths and bad outcomes.

    125. That’s an awesome post. I think the public education effort around the vaccines was pretty bad. All the percentages said there were going to be breakthrough infections and that the efficacy rate was in the low 90s and even lower for J&J. Then they published the Provincetown study that showed breakthrough infections in a bunch of vaxxed people who spent five straight days like a foot away from a bunch of other people and there was basically panic at the CDC and an inability to explain that no one ever said or thought there wouldn’t be the kind of thing the P-Town study showed.

      And it’s gone downhill from there. No one in authority has given any public demonstration that they really believe in the vaccines and the nadir of that was Biden’s speech where he said the vaccinated have to be “protected” from the unvaccinated. That’s exactly backward. I’m protected from both the vaxxed and the unvaxxed BECAUSE I’VE GOTTEN THE VAX. OTOH, the unvaxxed aren’t protected from me BECAUSE THEY HAVEN’T GOTTEN THE VAX. If you’re on the fence or hesitant and the president says the vax doesn’t really protect you, what possible reason would you then have to go out and get the vax??

      (The seasonal flu vaccines are voluntary.)

    126. I hear you E, a lot of people are frustrated with public messaging on this. It’s hard, the science is hard, and the public is getting a crash course on the scientific process and evolution of knowledge — they’re not loving it.

      As far as Biden’s particular comment, the only thing I can say is the more opportunities we give this to spread and replicate the more likely we are to encounter a strain that successfully evades the vaccines. So in that sense the vaccine hesitant and those who refuse to wear masks and social distances whenconditions call for it are a source of frustration/risk. Not to mention the issues with resources being utilized towards them and taking away from other populations

    127. In the past 12 months, Florida has had 1730 deaths per million, compared to 1145 deaths per million for New York. Mississippi has had 2170 deaths per million, compared to 1350 per million for California. These are not just the last “few days,” despite what some might say.

      I should add that the discrepancies are even more stark when you look just at the last six months of widespread vaccine availability. When we finally had a strong way to protect ourselves, some decided to disparage it rather than embrace it.

    128. knickerdore: Not to mention the issues with resources being utilized towards them and taking away from other populations

      Nice op piece in the NYT by Margaret Renkl about this today. One quote:
      “They wouldn’t do their civic duty, but they get access to hospitals in front of those of us who did.”

      To me this is a war. Except that the enemy is really, really small, so you don’t get to go to Europe and die in a foxhole for your country, you get a shot in the arm.

    129. That Denver team, assuming they sign Jokic to the supermax he is eligible for, has an incredibly impressive top 4 in Murray, Porter, Gordon, Jokic. Call me crazy, but that team has multiple championship potential.

    130. Hubert:
      That Denver team, assuming they sign Jokic to the supermax he is eligible for, has an incredibly impressive top 4 in Murray, Porter, Gordon, Jokic. Call me crazy, but that team has multiple championship potential.

      Yeah, but NBA basketball is 3 on 3. Wait, it’s not?

    131. They absolutely, positively did not do their civic duty, but it’s a failure in planning to base hospital capacity on people doing their civic duty. The planners had 18 months to ramp up capacity and failed.

      (And now, at least in NY, they’re firing a bunch of health care resources because they didn’t get vaxxed. That seems … unwise. Hopefully no one’s health will suffer from this unwise reduction in capacity. Something tells me it will, though.)

    132. The places that need additional hospital capacity are the same ones that refuse to support vaccination campaigns. It’s no surprise that people whose utter partisanship prevented them from taking basic precautions against disease and death also didn’t plan ahead to bolster their hospital systems.

    133. Takes more than 12 months to educate and train ICU nurses and doctors. You can’t just snap your fingers and ramp up capacity — personnel is the major limiting factor.

      Also disagree about firing HCW who don’t get vaccinated. You can’t have people working with sick/at risk patients who are unvaccinated (would possibly make an exception for those who could demonstrate serologic positivity — but still, just get vaccinated).

    134. I will go so far as to agree that if there is a widely available, inexpensive and accurate test that proves that a person’s immunity from COVID is at an acceptably high level, and that those people pose virtually no risk to others who are unvaccinated, then those people should be exempt from any vaccine mandates.

      But that’s not what this debate is about. Again, the numbers are indisputable.

      PS a circuit court just overturned the temporary injunction against the NYCDOE vaccine mandate for all school employees. One more step in the right direction. I am proud to report that every single member of my school team…teachers, support staff, paraprofessionals…are fully vaccinated. That is unfortunately not the case in many/most schools. It’s absolutely unbelievable that thousands will walk away from their jobs rather than submit to a harmless, free vaccine, especially since every one of them has had dozens of vaccines in their lifetime.

    135. In a world where allowing proof of prior infection to serve as a substitute for proof of vaccination wouldn’t lead to a bunch of jabronis going out and intentionally trying to contract Covid, sure, I would support it.

      We don’t live in that world.

    136. The main problem with Covid was from the beginning of was politicized on the national level. At first to take out Trump and now as a platform to try to save Biden’s sinking ship. “Banning travel from China is racist.” -Nancy Pelosi at the beginning to “I won’t take any vaccine developed under Trump.” Biden and Harris during the campaign to “Masks and the vaccine aren’t as good as stated.” Multiple Republicans said in various degrees.

    137. And the Hochul thing in NY is totally political. She’s only doing it because she wants to fend off any possible progressive challenger from NYC in a primary before it happens and she gets her ass kicked in the next election. She was always known as a more moderate democrat from Buffalo until a month ago.

    138. The main problem with Covid was from the beginning of was politicized on the national level. At first to take out Trump

      Trump handled Covid like a complete fucking moron from day one. If he had handled it with even a faint scent of competence he’d probably still be president. Instead he intentionally downplayed the threat, suggested that maybe drinking bleach might be a good idea, held a superspreader event at the White House and capped it all off by catching the virus himself and almost dying from it.

      That dumb motherfucker is the one who politicized the virus, full stop.

    139. ***i wish i was vaxxxed from this thread tbh***

      Normally when I see that it’s Strat and E against the field, I ignore it and skip to the next thread. But this has been a rather engaging ride, mostly because for me and my trump-hating, vax-loving bubble there are still a lot of oddities and inconsistencies to the covid protocols we face each day. But I will say a few things I response to the general thread:

      #1) In the city I live in, which is the 2nd largest in the United States, the positivity rate is currently 1.3%. It’s a libtard city. My particular community is 85% vaccinated. The pandemic here is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, and the ONLY way that it’s significantly effecting my life is that <12 year olds are still in a pandemic.

      #2) Jonathan Isaac is a good ball player. I wish he was a Knick. But he was the only player in the bubble who refused to take a knee during the anthem. Even guys with surgically repaired knees took knees. Doc Rivers looked like he was taking years off of his life by taking that fucking knee. But Jonathan Isaac said “white Jesus this, white Jesus that, blah blah blah”, so frankly, I don’t give a shit what he says about covid or the vaccine.

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