Knicks Morning News (2021.08.18)

  • Spencer Dinwiddie Slams Report About His Knicks Interest – Heavy.com
    [heavy.com] — Wednesday, August 18, 2021 1:01:01 AM

    Spencer Dinwiddie Slams Report About His Knicks Interest  Heavy.com

  • Kemba Walker introduced as Knicks newest star – News 12 Bronx
    [bronx.news12.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:48:58 PM

    Kemba Walker introduced as Knicks newest star  News 12 Bronx

  • Knicks and Nets to both play on Christmas Day – Newsday
    [www.newsday.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 4:32:56 PM

    Knicks and Nets to both play on Christmas Day  Newsday

  • The Knicks will play the Hawks on Christmas Day – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 4:00:53 PM

    The Knicks will play the Hawks on Christmas Day  Posting and Toasting

  • Knicks, Taj Gibson Agree To New Terms – hoopsrumors.com
    [www.hoopsrumors.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 3:48:00 PM

    Knicks, Taj Gibson Agree To New Terms  hoopsrumors.com

  • Celtics schedule: Boston opens 2021-22 season at New York Knicks, plays at Milwaukee Bucks on Christmas – MassLive.com
    [www.masslive.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 3:20:47 PM

    Celtics schedule: Boston opens 2021-22 season at New York Knicks, plays at Milwaukee Bucks on Christmas  MassLive.com

  • Davion Mitchell, Payton Pritchard, Knicks Picks Shine at Summer League – The Ringer
    [www.theringer.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 2:22:03 PM

    Davion Mitchell, Payton Pritchard, Knicks Picks Shine at Summer League  The Ringer

  • Kemba Walker: ‘Perfect timing’ in moving to Knicks – NBA.com
    [www.nba.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 2:11:15 PM

    Kemba Walker: ‘Perfect timing’ in moving to Knicks  NBA.comKnicks Acquire Evan Fournier  Knicks.comNY Knicks: B/R says team?s biggest problem is now at center  Daily KnicksTom Thibodeau talked ‘trash’ to Evan Fournier after signing with Knicks  New York Post Kemba Walker ready to rebound with hometown New York Knicks  ESPNView Full Coverage on Google News

  • NBA offseason grades: Lakers, Knicks, Warriors do well in free agency; Blazers, Pelicans bring down curve – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 1:28:00 PM

    NBA offseason grades: Lakers, Knicks, Warriors do well in free agency; Blazers, Pelicans bring down curve  CBS Sports

  • Meet the 2021-22 New York Knicks – Binghamton – wnbf.com
    [wnbf.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 11:29:21 AM

    Meet the 2021-22 New York Knicks – Binghamton  wnbf.comNY Knicks: Summer League roster turning heads around the NBA  Daily KnicksStock report: Knicks’ Summer League players  New York Daily News4 biggest takeaways from Knicks Summer League  Yahoo SportsLas Vegas Summer League: Grimes leads Knicks past Hawks  NBA.comView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Report: Atlanta Hawks to play New York Knicks in MSG on Christmas Day – Peachtree Hoops
    [www.peachtreehoops.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 11:20:42 AM

    Report: Atlanta Hawks to play New York Knicks in MSG on Christmas Day  Peachtree Hoops

  • Bulls Rumors: Knicks let Lonzo go to Chicago ?without a fuss? – Pippen Ain’t Easy
    [pippenainteasy.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:05:00 AM

    Bulls Rumors: Knicks let Lonzo go to Chicago ?without a fuss?  Pippen Ain’t Easy

  • NY Knicks: B/R says team?s biggest problem is now at center – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:00:00 AM

    NY Knicks: B/R says team?s biggest problem is now at center  Daily KnicksKemba Walker ready to rebound with hometown New York Knicks  ESPNKnicks Acquire Evan Fournier  Knicks.comKemba Walker: ‘Perfect timing’ in moving to Knicks  NBA.comTom Thibodeau talked ‘trash’ to Evan Fournier after signing with Knicks  New York Post View Full Coverage on Google News

  • Knicks Rumors: Spencer Dinwiddie Didn’t Find NYK ‘An Appealing Fit’ in Free Agency – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 9:46:28 AM

    Knicks Rumors: Spencer Dinwiddie Didn’t Find NYK ‘An Appealing Fit’ in Free Agency  Bleacher Report

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    113 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2021.08.18)”

    1. who is making stuff up about double drafts

      making stuff up about double drafts to defend bad trades is a big part of what we do here. We’re not gonna just kick double draft to the curb.

    2. Morning news post two days in a row?!?!?! One story to add to the automated list: Mike Vorkunov’s farewell to the Knicks beat (he’ll be writing about the business of the NBA going forward), which also includes a recap of the Kemba/Fournier press conference, a look back at how much the team has changed since he came on the beat (the night Porzingis hurt his knee), and a bit of a look forward. It’s a very nice story, and I’m not just saying that because he mentions me at one point. He’s been the best Knicks beat writer for years now, and The Athletic had better find someone good to succeed him.

    3. Watched Atl-Nyk SL
      Channing Frye sounded pretty high
      I liked his commentary
      But i also had two beers

    4. The double draft is a fantasy

      But there is no question the FO is looking to space out our future assets, and is willing to “space them out” even if it means taking slightly less than a “good deal” to do so. Ergo the punting of the 2nd rounder last year to 2023, and the 19th pick fiasco.

      Truthfully though, I really do believe they don’t want too many rookies at the same time on the team, and also had a very large tier between 19-36. To the first point, here are all the players who are either going into their rookie or second year season, or are 22 and younger:

      RJ
      Grimes
      Knox
      McBride
      Quickley
      Mitch
      Sims
      Toppin
      (not counting Rokas)

      That is a lot of guys that need development work and minutes. We are definitely not short on young talent. Whether the FO agrees with the valuation in mock drafts is a different issue, but it’s sort of hard to argue with what we saw in summer league at least.

      To the second point (large tier) — that’s just a player valuation issue. Just because Mike Schmitz or djphan or whoever had Jaden Springer and Keon Johnson higher doesn’t mean the Knicks did. It doesn’t mean (as of now at least) that the Knicks didn’t know what they were doing. I mean, if the Knicks ended up getting Jared Butler or Ayo Dosonmu or JT Thor at 36 because whoever picked McBride at 35, would we be mad?

      I’m just saying – I don’t know how the FO grades players – I assume they have a score assigned to every draft-able player. If you have roughly the same grade on players 19-36 AND you’re interested in not having 100 rookies on the team AND you want the extra cap space to do something, doesn’t it make sense to trade down, still get players with the same grade, and also pick up future assets?

      Remember – they wanted to trade up. But there was no deal they were comfortable with. So obviously 19 was a lower tier pick for them.

    5. Must say though – McBride is extremely impressive. His pull-up 3 shooting is absolute fire.

    6. Alan:
      . He’s been the best Knicks beat writer for years now, and The Athletic had better find someone good to succeed him.

      If Z-Man is hanging up his DOE Galaxy Budget system access, perhaps Alan you can put in a good word for him.

    7. All our rookies look pretty solid, having NBA ready bodies, smooth looking shooting strokes, tons of energy and willingness to play D and confident mentality.
      This year’s draft crop seems like a much less stressful one in the “if he fix this and that” area.
      Otoh if we had picked in 19th…
      ;-p

    8. All our rookies look pretty solid

      They really did. So much so that I’m willing to admit that, in time, my 19th pick gripe may ultimately seem petty and meaningless.

      It’s funny that I’m often labeled a pessimist bc once the games start I overreact heavily to positive side. Right now I boldly believe things like “Jericho Sims might be better than Isiah Jackson” and “Quentin Grimes could start if we had to trade RJ Barrett.”

      There’s really no need to get dug in on positions. I didn’t like one trade. Big deal. The off-season as a whole was positive and we’re all going to be pretty fucking excited when the ball drops.

    9. I’ve always liked teams with exciting second units and ours promises to deliver on that front. I imagine our depth chart will look like this:

      1 Walker
      2 Fournier
      3 Barrett
      4 Randle
      5 Robinson

      1 Rose
      2 Quickley
      3 Burks
      4 Toppin
      5 Noel

      End of bench: McBride, Grimes, Sims

      There’s enough depth of guys who deserve minutes for Thibs to really rotate guys and keep them fresh. On a back to back, for instance, you could easily go with Kemba and McBride at PG one night, Rose & McBride at PG the next. Grimes could spell Alec Burks any time he needed some time off to rest. Hell, you could even give Obi a run with the first team if Randle picks up a knock.

      EDIT: damn I forgot about Taj, too. And Vildoza. But I think everyone is going to forget about Vildoza soon (except Alan, who still wakes up in the night muttering “Vildoza is not available for the playoffs.”)

    10. EDIT: damn I forgot about Taj, too. And Vildoza. But I think everyone is going to forget about Vildoza soon (except Alan, who still wakes up in the night muttering “Vildoza is not available for the playoffs.”)

      My response everytime we argue about Vildoza.

      Our high-end talent isn’t as high as a lot of other teams, but I feel really good about our depth. Knox and maybe Vildoza (assuming he even makes the final roster) are the only guys on the roster I wouldn’t feel comfortable seeing in a game right now. I assume Grimes and McBride (and Sims, if he’s ever pressed into duty) will have some rookie bumps, and other guys will get injured, but we’re really solid from 1-13 or so.

    11. The one thing I think this team sorely lacks is a stretch big. That seems like a product of philosophy. I understand the benefit of having 48 minutes of elite rim protection, but when the playoffs roll around, you’re really going to want that guy.

      Imagine playing the Nets, for example. what are we going to do when they roll out their big 3 with two shooters?

    12. #My response everytime we argue about Vildoza.#

      I strangely thought of the exact same McBain/MentozaVildoza thing!
      Telepathy in action!

      I feel pretty awkward to say it after just a few SL games and after not feeling very excited of our off-season moves but i will:

      “Gentlemen, We’re somehow Loaded!”

    13. To be fair, if the Nets make it to the playoffs with three healthy superstars and Joe Harris doesn’t completely shit the bed like he did against the Bucks, there isn’t a team that can beat them in 7. I wouldn’t worry about trying to stop them with dedicated anti-Nets roster moves. That would be myopic thinking.

    14. #19#

      I don’t have any problem to talk or read about this now Legendary draft pick since we like to exaggerate, analyse, repeat, troll, mock and make fun over any knicks related thing in here.
      Just want to point out that if We wanna retain the right to believe that KB is the smartest knicks blog around we may have to put it in reality perception and not take it TOO(OO) seriously.

      #Big 15, baby!#
      And Not as a postgame *farce* this time!

    15. We are better, not loaded. We don’t have the best player in the league at any position. Randle did get 2nd team all-NBA but who’s a better PF, him or Durant? What the Knicks are is deep. Deep is great for the regular season but in the playoffs, one or two great players goes a long way. To become loaded, one or two Knicks must take a huge leap. RJ is my candidate for moving into all-NBA status first. Julius could improve. Mitch or Noel could be DPOY.

    16. you’re correct, Jowles. They were just the first team I thought of. Not being able to put 5 offensive threats on the floor is going to be a handicap against any team in the East, though. We saw it with Atlanta.

      Obviously Mitch can ease the brunt of that by being better than Noel (not hard), but you’d like to have that arrow in your quiver.

    17. doesn’t it make sense to trade down, still get players with the same grade, and also pick up future assets?

      They didn’t trade down. When you trade down you get more assets. The reason people are using the word “incinerated” is because, again, they willingly accepted lesser value in a trade, which seems pretty rare. In most trades you can make an argument for both sides, even if one of the arguments is weak. In this one we literally looked at an offer that openly proposed 50-75 cents for our dollar and said “that’ll do.”

      In the scenario you mentioned, it might make sense to trade the pick in a vacuum. I’d still be against it because as my big board shows I particularly liked a lot of the players available, but putting that aside you still simply cannot accept an offer incommensurate with the value of the pick. That’s a ridiculously rigid way of doing business that will lead you astray because it can’t answer a simple question: what if my grades on players are off somewhat?

      It’s a cliché but exists for a reason: no deal is better than a good deal. If all of the offers we were getting were bad, we should’ve made the best pick possible and gone from there. If we made a good pick, our asset chest would’ve improved. I’ve used this example before, but Quickley is now worth way more than the 25th overall pick in a given draft.

      I’m with Hubert in that I’m actually generally happy about the state of the team, really liked the McBride pick when it was made, and am slowly being won over by Grimes. My gripes with the 19th pick are isolated. I think part of the disconnect here is some people think I’m using it as an excuse to tee off on the front office, but in reality I really just…didn’t like that one move.

      Again, if Rose and co. build a contender you’ll hear about the 19th overall pick just as often as Bucks fans talk about trading 20 year-old Tobias Harris for a few months of JJ Redick–never.

    18. It’s funny that I’m often labeled a pessimist bc once the games start I overreact heavily to positive side. Right now I boldly believe things like “Jericho Sims might be better than Isiah Jackson” and “Quentin Grimes could start if we had to trade RJ Barrett.”

      i think there’s this penchant to be wildly violent against anything not positive against the home team… it’s not just here or on reddit or other popular knicks fans sites… it’s basically everywhere on every fan site for most teams with large fanbases….

      it’s really hard to try and be an objective fan or even have a critical take anywhere these days because if you’re not a homer or hold an unpopular opinion then it becomes a hostile environment… i can’t believe i’m called a pessimist when i spent weeks defending the likes of julius randle and rj barrett against the pitchforks… and i can’t believe some folks are labeled a pessimist for holding the more reasonable positions on this site and not being complete pollyanas…

      this whole pessimist angle is really only about a few trades and i think most of the pessimists are actually optimistic about this season and the moves on the whole… i think we’re going to do exactly what we set out to do… i don’t think it’s all that great and there’s significant risk in it but we probably make the playoffs as a low seed… which is anyone else actually think we’ll be better? there’s nothing really pessimistic about any of that…

    19. Deep is great for the regular season but in the playoffs, one or two great players goes a long way.

      This is exactly what we’re built for, though. I can already tell you exactly what’s going to happen next year: we’re going to have a solid and enjoyable regular season, finish somewhere between the 6th seed and the 9th seed, and get knocked out in a frustrating first round series again.

      Our plan is to tread water in the bottom half of the East until a superstar decides he wants to come here.

      I’ve mentioned several times that I don’t like the strategy, but I am willing to admit that Leon has executed it very well.

    20. Guard Grant Riller has agreed to a two-way contract with the Philadelphia 76ers, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium. Riller played for the Hornets in his rookie season in 2020-21.— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) August 18, 2021

      Would’ve liked this with our other two-way slot.

      Disclaimer: this is not me saying Leon Rose sucks, it is me saying I wish we gave Grant Riller our other two-way slot.

    21. “Gentlemen, We’re somehow Loaded!”

      and i think this is a perfect example of this… we’re absolutely not loaded….. we should not be anchoring ourselves on knicks past.. and just because we have nba players 10 deep doesn’t mean we’re anything loaded…

      we are actually on a knife’s edge at the pg spot… if kemba or rose misses significant time that alone could torpedo the season… we have a lot of reversion candidates… we are simply not a 4 seed and i don’t think anyone looked at a 6, 7 or 8 seed as loaded at anything….

      we’re probably something like you’re old steve clifford teams…. that’s basically the model we had in these offseasons right down to getting ole kemba…. that’s better than what we had before but it’s not some juggernaut…

    22. My gripes with the 19th pick are isolated. I think part of the disconnect here is some people think I’m using it as an excuse to tee off on the front office, but in reality I really just…didn’t like that one move.

      same. this is part of the problem we have here with the disingenuous arguing. People like to rebrand your position to make it something easier to attack.

      JK47 was despondent on draft night, and his take is being held up as the default position. But he walked it back pretty fast, and every fan is entitled to walk back something they say within minutes of getting punched in the stomach.

      sometimes people just want to vent, you know?

      If we were to collectively grade this front office on a five star rating, my guess is the pollyanna’s would all give them 5 stars, the harshest critics would still give them 3 stars, and 90% of the blog would be somewhere in between.

      But the pollyannas are just so damn angry that everyone isn’t with them, and they have zero tolerance for justifiable criticism.

    23. Having a deep team helps us acquire a superstar via trade. We can trade 4-5 assets and still field 8-9 man rotation of solid players.

      One of the main complaints about the Melo trade was it depleted our assets & left Melo with a barebones team full of Jared Jeffries. If we make a move for a superstar now, they’ll be surrounded by quality role players plus Randle, Kemba,& Fournier.

      Also, a deep team will help us avoid tougher opponents come playoff time. A handful of injuries to a top team could open up a spot for us to play a team in the bottom of the East.

    24. we’re absolutely not loaded…..

      we are actually on a knife’s edge at the pg spot…

      it’s not some juggernaut…

      why do you hate this team so much? ;)

      #BIG15

    25. since we have a settled roster… and i know we’ll get to the win total projection thread before the season starts…

      but does anyone actually think we have a chance (>25%) at a 4 seed or better? i know the answer for some people but i’m just wondering if we have anyone else who actually thinks that’s where we are at as a team… because that might explain the hostility….

    26. We may not seem as contenders yet but we’re circling around like sharks waiting for the AMale big dog to take charge.
      If you have the luxury to bench players like McBride or Grimes you’re definitely DEEP and….*somehow* loaded!

    27. Said it before and I’ll say it again:
      No need to be Optimist or Pessimist.
      Just be Fair.

      Draft Nights for Knicks fans used to be the highlight of most seasons of this century and i get the feeling that FO killed the buzz by trading our two highest picks.
      Judging their overall draft performance tho would have been more fair imo instead of shooting the 19th just like a can with a bazooka!

    28. Judging their overall draft performance tho would have been more fair

      it might come as a complete shock to you .. and some others who think they have a monopoly on what’s fair or not… but the sun doesn’t revolve you and people might have a different opinion on what fair is…

      big revelation we know…

    29. This is odd. We announced the Rose signing — using his Early Bird rights — before the Burks signing, which we were using cap space for.

    30. it might come as a complete shock to you .. and some others who think they have a monopoly on what’s fair or not… but the sun doesn’t revolve you and people might have a different opinion on what fair is…

      big revelation we know…

      Flag on the play.

      Unnecessary condescension.

      5 yard penalty.

      Repeat 19th pick.

    31. #it might come as a complete shock to you .. and some others who think they have a monopoly on what’s fair or not… but the sun doesn’t revolve you and people might have a different opinion on what fair is…

      big revelation we know…#

      I’m shocked!
      I thought that this yellow thing circling me for years was the sun but you may be right!
      It’s just a golden chariot with a semi naked pervert guy called Apollo!

      Fair’s Fair!

    32. Knew Your Nicks:
      #it might come as a complete shock to you .. and some others who think they have a monopoly on what’s fair or not… but the sun doesn’t revolve you and people might have a different opinion on what fair is…

      big revelation we know…#

      I’m shocked!
      I thought that this yellow thing circling me for years was the sun but you may be right!
      It’s just a golden chariot with a semi naked pervert guy called Apollo!

      Fair’s Fair!

      Actually, according to Science, the sun doesn’t go around any of us. But the moon sure does!

    33. you’re right and i’m sorry kyn.. but it gets a bit tiring when you put a lot of effort explaining a position from a lot of different angles and then be accused of being unfair…

      we’re trying to be.. at least most of us are…

    34. #Actually, according to Science, the sun doesn’t go around any of us. But the moon sure does!#

      Com on man!
      Some tell me we ain’t Loaded!
      Now you tell me i ain’t the center of the Universe!
      Stop killing my buzz people!
      I didn’t trade the 19th! Brock and his cap brokers did it!!!

    35. “you’re right and i’m sorry kyn.. but it gets a bit tiring when you put a lot of effort explaining a position from a lot of different angles and then be accused of being unfair…

      we’re trying to be.. at least most of us are…”

      No problem bro!
      Ain’t calling anyone unfair.
      Just keeping the “talk” in here interesting and trying to make people and myself see from another POV without being prejudiced
      Ain’t always working but I’m trying too!

    36. There’s a new feature on netflix about the Malice in the Palace. I’m 20 minutes in and it’s great. I saw Jermaine O’Neal’s name as a producer, so you can tell it’s sympathetic to the players. (Frankly, I was always sympathetic to them, as well. I get what they did was wrong but man, those people in detroit and the media were animals).

      The beginning of it is very biographical. The bit about Artest just highlights how perfect that guy was for the Knicks. I know he was considered crazy and all but man, I would have rolled the dice. The #19 pick got nothing on that. Hell even Obi over Halliburton got nothing on that. That’s the greatest mistake the Knicks ever made.

      (Also, so I could be wrong but I believe that draft selection was the first move of the Dolan era, right after he fired Checketts.)

    37. Fun fact: the final score in the deciding game of the 2004 Eastern Conf Finals was DET-65, IND-59! Basketball in 2004 was rough.

    38. started watching Summer of Love, i’m only about 15 to 20 minutes or so in to it…i’m kind of hoping they stop with the interviews, commentary/narration and just play the songs – complete, without interruption…stevie wonder was such a freak, unbelievable amount of talent in one body…

      i had almost forgot it was the 5th dimension who helped popularize elevator music…i liked them as a kid…

    39. These kinds of opportunity cost decisions are very difficult to value in financial markets also because you are dealing with probabilities and unknowns. You don’t know what will be available in the future and how far off in the future it will be available. You just know that what’s available now is not particularly attractive. So you contemplate giving up a little value now (by staying in cash instead of investing it) in the hope a much better deal will be available soon enough to net out to much higher profits.

      What they said with that trade was that they were willing to give up a little value now for the POTENTIAL OPPURTUNITY for much greater value in a trade or draft later.

      There were other players they wanted on the roster this year MORE than the players available in the draft at that stage, but primarily they didn’t want to use a bullet in their elephant gun now on someone they didn’t think was great value when they may need it for a trade of much greater value later.

      What you have to ask yourself is “what is the probability they will have an opportunity to draft a better value player in a future draft or trade what is now an extra pick as part of a package that improves the team much more than a selection in this year’s draft?”.

      That’s a tough question to answer, but they certainly didn’t incinerate a pick and they knew they were taking less value in the trade, Their calculation was there was greater potential value in waiting than making an extra selection in this draft even though they gave up a little value in the short term. It’s that simple.

    40. Flag on the play.

      Unnecessary condescension.

      5 yard penalty.

      Repeat 19th pick.

      man, i’m supposed to be working, and, you got me laughing out loud…

    41. haha I love djphan. just trying to help him out.

      and guys, this Malice at the Palace thing is great. It’s got some need never-before-known moments. For example, when the game was out of reach, Jamaal Tinsley came on the court and told Ron “you can get your foul now”, i.e. go hit someone. And then it cuts to Stephen Jackson saying “what’s he doing that for? Ron don’t need be charged up.” Then Ron fouled Wallace hard. And I didn’t know Wallace’s brother had died, like, the day before, so he wasn’t in the right frame of mind.

      This whole thing is an unintentional advertisement for taking mental health seriously. Ron tried to take time off that month to manage his depression and anxiety, but he was mocked and ridiculed into coming back.

      the saddest guy in the whole thing is Reggie. I forgot how good that Pacers team was. They probably would have won the chip that year.

    42. On the list of things we should be worried about, the 19th pick is about 19th most important. lmao

      The #1 thing to worry about is Kemba’s arthritic knee. Treatment and rest will help, but it won’t solve the problem. It’s going to be an ongoing problem according to multiple doctors. Kemba’s contract in not a major problem because it’s short and cheap. It’s was reasonable gamble. But it’s very likely he’s going to miss some games (quite possibly a lot more than we’d like).

      Rose clearly needs a minute restriction (despite what he says) and will probably miss quite a few games also.

      That could easily mean both will be out at the same time once in awhile and we’ll be using IQ and McBride at PG a LOT. IMO, neither of them is really a PG based on what I am seeing so far. That means we’ll be running a lot of the offense through Randle and by committee again. I’m not a big fan of running the offense through Randle a lot.

      This is the issue that actually is an issue, not that we gave up a few cents in pick trade.

    43. according to Science, the sun doesn’t go around any of us.

      those party hardy greek folks get credited with the whole – the earth ain’t flat thing (for bonus points, eratosthenes even put some not too far off numbers down) 2,500 years or so ago, got to imagine though people figured it out way way before then…

    44. I would say “Par” = #6 seed ie. avoiding the play-in
      “Birdie” = #5 seed
      “Eagle” = #4 seed

      Then in terms of what happens in the playoffs, par would be to take the #3 seed to 6-7 games

      we are actually on a knife’s edge at the pg spot… if kemba or rose misses significant time that alone could torpedo the season… we have a lot of reversion candidates… we are simply not a 4 seed and i don’t think anyone looked at a 6, 7 or 8 seed as loaded at anything….

      Agree that 4 seed would be very optimistic and not entirely realistic.

      That said – I do not think we are on knife’s edge at the PG spot.
      We were, what, 27-9 when Rose actually played during the regular season? Something like that? And the lion’s share of PG minutes outside Rose was Elfrid Payton.

      We would be on knife’s edge if we didn’t have Kemba. But the only way the PG position isn’t a MASSIVE upgrade from last year is if both Rose and Kemba are hurt at the same time and for extended periods of time.

      And whereas Randle might be a candidate for regression both in terms of 3 point shooting and injury, we also had a fair amount of injuries last year. Mitch was out half the season or more, Rose was out for a while, Burks was out for awhile, etc.

      And in terms of improvement – we all expect RJ to be better. Mitch will play more, presumably. Fournier is certainly better overall than Bullock, even though Bullock was great last year. And if Kemba Walker is healthy, then it is a HUGE upgrade. That dude is really really good. If he plays 60 games and averages 25-28 minutes/game, we have a pretty good chance at a 4-5 seed IMHO.

      I firmly believe this year’s team would beat last year’s team, so even if they don’t get the 4 seed again, it’s more because other teams (namely Miami and Atlanta) have improved.

    45. What they said with that trade was that they were willing to give up a little value now for the POTENTIAL OPPURTUNITY for much greater value in a trade or draft later.

      This would be the case if they traded for an unprotected first. They’d be trading present value for future value that could be lower, but also could be substantially higher.

      Instead, we traded present value in such a way that the future value will almost certainly be lower. In an extremely unlikely scenario where things we have zero control over break perfectly for us, it could be ever so slightly higher e.g. getting the 15th pick in 2025.

      What you have to ask yourself is “what is the probability they will have an opportunity to draft a better value player in a future draft or trade what is now an extra pick as part of a package that improves the team much more than a selection in this year’s draft?”.

      The probability they will have an opportunity to draft a better player than Jalen Johnson et al. with this particular pick, which has a very high chance of becoming two second-round picks, is very low.

      The probability that this pick will make the difference in a trade for a superstar is also very low, because every other team can see the protections on the pick.

      There seems to be an unsaid but heavily implied idea among defenders of this move that we can pull the wool over the eyes of other teams and “market” this pick as a “future first-rounder.” Needless to say, this is not the case.

      Yes, we can trade this pick. We can also trade the top-55 protected second we just got from Boston. We can trade any pick. No pick will be assigned value in a trade beyond what the market dictates by sheer force of will though.

    46. Mike Vorkunov did a great job on the Knicks beat for years at the Athletic and will be missed,
      let’s hope they’ll find a decent replacement because the interim period during Mike’s paternity leave was terrible (thanks as usual Joe Vardon).

    47. Both of our PGs are pretty good players when they’re on the floor. But:

      1. They’re both old, and shouldn’t play too many minutes
      2. Our coach is Tom Thibodeau
      3. We don’t really have a very good “innings eater” option if one of those guys goes down
      4. If one goes down, the other one will probably play too many minutes
      5. Which could easily lead to the second one going down

      It’d be nice to have a third competent PG and maybe McBride can be that guy.

    48. Early Bird:
      According to Kyrie Irving, the sun does go around us. So it’s a toss up.

      Ah, Kyrie vs. Science!

      Well, sun or moon, at least something’s revolving around me!

    49. That said – I do not think we are on knife’s edge at the PG spot.
      We were, what, 27-9 when Rose actually played during the regular season? Something like that? And the lion’s share of PG minutes outside Rose was Elfrid Payton.

      We would be on knife’s edge if we didn’t have Kemba. But the only way the PG position isn’t a MASSIVE upgrade from last year is if both Rose and Kemba are hurt at the same time and for extended periods of time.

      i think the main problem is anchoring on last year…. last year was last year… and rose is a year older and still hasn’t played over 1300 minutes since his last knick stint… kemba is also kemba… but probably not like the kemba like he was in any other year…. both are very likely not going to see over 1800 minutes… we all saw what happened to rose when we needed extended time from him…. and kemba we’ll just have to see…

      the real risk is if things start cascading if someone is out for extended time… if kemba starts missing a couple weeks…. and mcbride and IQ suck at pg … which i’m sure people are optimistic about but at the end of the day these guys aren’t pg’s…. so they could actually be worse than payton….. then rose starts seeing playoff like minutes and then he starts ailing and missing games… i mean that’s the disaster scenario.. maybe unlikely… but it’s not like we’re going to be super unlucky if it happens.. it’s a real risk..

      we were a top 5 defense last year based on some flukey metrics.. and we could be that again.. but it’s very likely this is where we fall the most… so things could LOOK better if all we’re looking at are shooting metrics but we lose more games based on worse defense….. but then again there’s also some reversion candidates to look out for… burks and randle.. and even rose could all see a small step back and impact our team in major ways…

      the avg outcome still looks ok but i would bet that 48…

    50. The #1 thing to worry about is Kemba’s arthritic knee.

      why worry at all…kemba’s knee is gonna do what kemba’s knee does…no control = no worry (quick flashback to orwell)…

      actually quik better worry about his consistency…no doubt mcbride and grimes will both be working hard in practice to get out on the court…unlike obi, and they may actually play decent early on in the season, one or both may force their way on to the court for consistent minutes…

      thibs is gonna feed julius, RJ, evian, kemba, and rose as much as they can handle…who knows what’ll happen with mitch and nerlens – we won’t probably know what’s up with mitch’s health until training camp in late september…burks and quik are gonna be the two guys that are gonna have the most competition for their minutes…

    51. When I said:

      GoNyGoNYGo: Deep is great for the regular season but in the playoffs, one or two great players goes a long way.

      Hubert said:

      Hubert: This is exactly what we’re built for, though. I can already tell you exactly what’s going to happen next year: we’re going to have a solid and enjoyable regular season, finish somewhere between the 6th seed and the 9th seed, and get knocked out in a frustrating first round series again.

      … and Early Bird said:

      Early Bird: Having a deep team helps us acquire a superstar via trade. We can trade 4-5 assets and still field 8-9 man rotation of solid players.

      I agree with Early Bird. Aside from having a deep team, the Knicks are flush with assets. They have way more draft picks than they could ever hope to roster. Maybe New Orleans falters and Zion becomes available at the right price? Or Washington decides to cash in on Beal? This team has the active players and future assets to trade for someone like that.

      The other thing is that every year is a mystery. We were off on our predictions for Julius Randle and the 2020 Knicks by just a tad, weren’t we? Golden State was supposed to win 7 in a row before injuries. It was supposed to be a Nets-Lakers final, right? I can go on and on. There are players on this team, who with the right coaching, can become mega stars. There are players on this team that were mega stars.

      You can’t go from where we were (the worst) to where we want to be (the best) without getting to where we are now (pretty solid) first.

    52. “19” has indeed replaced Frank as the obsession here.
      I’m not sure if that’s good or bad – time for a new poll

    53. If Kemba & Rose go down, we still have Vildoza, McBride, IQ, Burks, & Fournier.

      That’s a lot of options, even if several are emergency stopgaps (Burks, Fournier). We’ll be fine at PG as long as Kemba & Rose combine for at least the number of minutes as Rose played for us last year.

      At worst, McBride should play some shutdown defense at the 1 while we run the offense through Randle. Having Fournier also alleviates the need for a PG because he can get his own shot.

    54. This team has the active players and future assets to trade for someone like that.

      It’s going to be nearly impossible to pull off an in-season trade.

      Take Dame Lillard, for example. Let’s say we’re lucky and get him for Obi, IQ, Grimes, McBride, and 4 firsts. well you’re still $30mm short in matching salary, so you’re going to have to throw in something like Rose, Burks & Taj to make the salary work. Now you’re looking at a 7 for 1 player trade, which means Portland has to release half their team.

    55. Yes, I also wonder why people would consider you a pessimist

      djphan: and i think this is a perfect example of this… we’re absolutely not loaded….. we should not be anchoring ourselves on knicks past.. and just because we have nba players 10 deep doesn’t mean we’re anything loaded…

      we are actually on a knife’s edge at the pg spot… if kemba or rose misses significant time that alone could torpedo the season… we have a lot of reversion candidates… we are simply not a 4 seed and i don’t think anyone looked at a 6, 7 or 8 seed as loaded at anything….

      we’re probably something like you’re old steve clifford teams…. that’s basically the model we had in these offseasons right down to getting ole kemba…. that’s better than what we had before but it’s not some juggernaut…

    56. danvt: we’re probably something like you’re old steve clifford teams…. that’s basically the model we had in these offseasons right down to getting ole kemba…. that’s better than what we had before but it’s not some juggernaut…

      lol Charlotte Steve Clifford teams had precisely one good player on them –> Kemba Walker.

      Orlando Steve Clifford teams had embarrassingly little talent also – Vuc, Aaron Gordon, Fournier, and basically nothing else.

      There really is a lot of talent on this Knicks team. The wild cards (re: downside risk) are whether Julius’s shooting regresses and what Kemba’s knee is. Rose hasn’t missed extended games due to his knees since he was a Knick the first time around (2017). Comparing this year’s Knicks to perennial 8th seed Orlando magic teams or perennial not-in-playoff Charlotte teams is very pessimistic.

    57. “why worry at all…kemba’s knee is gonna do what kemba’s knee does…no control = no worry (quick flashback to orwell)…”

      Geo, I agree. Talking about injuries in the future is very pessimistic. It’s the definition of pessimism. Anyone can get hurt. Even iron man LBJ as we’ve seen. AD? When does he even fucking play? Same with the fancy Kyrie…

      I do understand pessimism. I mean, I’m a guitar player and I’ve checked out Dolan’s band, you know…

      Some posts are tedious, not because they’re wrong. They may be right. In fact, they have an excellent chance of being right. Basketball is a contact sport. If all the guys get hurt and Kevin Knox is starting, that could lead to a bad results.

      Like the 13/14 season where we won 38 games. Was it because of the Bargnani deal? Maybe a few games, but, though that trade was the quintessential bad move, the results that season were also swayed by Tyson Chandler breaking his leg for example. Shit happens for many reasons.

      What playoff team improved more than NYK? That’s my question for all posters. You can only improve and then throw the ball up.

    58. lol Charlotte Steve Clifford teams had precisely one good player on them –> Kemba Walker.

      um he had a 48 win team in charlotte which was better than the prorated record of last year’s knicks squad… he also made the playoffs with the magic …. both off the backs of a good player and vets of varying quality…. we’re much closer to these guys than we are to the nets and sixers…

      do you want to challenge that? go ahead…

      Yes, I also wonder why people would consider you a pessimist

      so what’s the real take here… what win totals are you guys looking at?

    59. Talking about injuries in the future is very pessimistic.

      so let me get this straight… talking about the possibility of injury with kemba walker and derrick rose.. inherently makes one pessimistic?

      is everyone else raining on your parade too because i’m pretty sure that’s going to be the topic for most of the season….

    60. “Just what is it that you want to do?
      Well, we wanna be free, we wanna be free to do what we wanna do
      And we wanna get loaded and we wanna have a good time
      And that’s what we’re gonna do”

      (The Wild Angels, 1966)

    61. ignorance within the sports industry getting stomped on one idiotic question after another…go kayla, go kayla

      so funny what follows – no disrespect intended…

      on a side note, what a welcome back to pressers that naomi encountered…like having fucking worms trying to crawl in to your brain…

      made me happy this year to see how much shit berman took while doing post game interviews…thibs, RJ, julius and i think rose too, jumped on him with a quickness when he injected his own jaundiced life perspective in to his questions…

    62. Talking about injuries in the future is very pessimistic. It’s the definition of pessimism. Anyone can get hurt.

      Kemba Walker is a bigger injury risk than most. You almost have to count on him missing some time, that’s why he cost very little to acquire. That’s not pessimism, that’s common sense.

    63. I think you may be overselling the case a little bit. Steve Clifford had exactly 1 team that was better than last year’s Knicks and that team was ~1.3 prorated wins better.

      Several of our players will regress next year, but adding Kemba, Fournier, etc. will help offset that regression.

      Rose & Kemba combined for 2500 min last year, that’s around 1600 more competent PG min than last year (Rose ~900min for the Knicks). 1600min is just short of half of last season.

      We should improve significantly just from removing Elfrid Payton. I’ll throw out an early estimate and say we’ll end up right around 46-50 wins next year.

      I don’t see ATL or BOS as significantly better than us, and we improved more than either of those teams this offseason.

      I think we’ll outperform MIA who I think is being overrated (adding Kemba is bigger for us than adding Lowry is for them).

    64. djphan: so let me get this straight… talking about the possibility of injury with kemba walker and derrick rose.. inherently makes one pessimistic?

      Do you read your posts? I agree with JK but not that Kemba and Rose are some Greg Oden level flyer either. You look up more stats than me and I’m unworthy certainly, but, there’s a lot to like and I’d rather read interesting posts about offenses we may run, or skills guys need to develop (like IQ’s left hand) than naysay and nitpick every single thing. Lots has to break right for a team to really function as planned. Predicting gloom and doom doesn’t make you a critical thinker, necessarily.

    65. djphan: what win totals are you guys looking at?

      BARRING INJURIES…we have an excellent chance to win 50 and go to the second round. Then, depending on the health of our competition, we have a punchers chance against the starfuckers. Meanwhile, I like the fact that we have some NYK players as opposed to dick riders. And, if I read the business tea leaves right, we are in a decent position do to a ruinous 7-1 trade for someone boring who endorses products.

    66. and if it all goes wrong, for whatever combination of 1000 reasons no one can predict, we’ll have, wait for it, a lottery pick of our very own. Because we didn’t trade it for, say, Kyle Lowery at last year’s deadline. In other words, Leon and company are practical blokes who have an eye on the present and the future…

    67. BARRING INJURIES…we have an excellent chance to win 50 and go to the second round.

      We should improve significantly just from removing Elfrid Payton. I’ll throw out an early estimate and say we’ll end up right around 46-50 wins next year.

      so me being WILDLY PESSIMISTIC throwing out a range of 42-46 wins … i’m some sort of heretic? improving significantly could mean that we don’t improve our win total at all? that’s interesting…

      I think you may be overselling the case a little bit. Steve Clifford had exactly 1 team that was better than last year’s Knicks and that team was ~1.3 prorated wins better.

      i’m not looking at all of clifford’s team if that’s what you think i’m saying… when i think of good clifford squads i think of that hornets teams.. as well as the best from kemba… and they were quite solid for a forgettable team but ultimately quite fragile…

      if the equivalent of our batum … probably rj.. goes awol.. then it all collapses quite quickly just like that next year’s squad… and they had quite a bevy of solid veterans that went rather deep for a mediocre squad… rj probably has some improvement and maybe some others but it’s really not all that different from them… you would really have to believe all these veterans to repeat their career best years to think about 50 wins which is quite optimistic but hey … you’re entitled to it…

      i just think a lot has to go right which you’re demonstrating and i’m saying a couple things should go wrong which will ultimately impact a w/l record… that’s the difference in our outlook… and i think assuming some injury and some regression is a reasonable assumption… but you guys do you…

      Do you read your posts?

      i don’t know do you?

    68. Dan: around 46-50 wins next year
      DJ: a range of 42-46 wins
      Easy, we’ll win 46 games and both of you will be right! ;)

    69. Alan: One story to add to the automated list: Mike Vorkunov’s farewell to the Knicks beat (…) It’s a very nice story, and I’m not just saying that because he mentions me at one point.

      Great story, thanks for sharing. :) And, by the way, as we’re KB brothers, i felt a little proud when he referenced you. Congrats, man. ;)

    70. I don’t give a damn about last year record, it was one of the two weirdest season of all time (the bubble being the other), and I don’t like every single move the FO did but I’m happy with the final result.

      On paper, I repeat “on paper”, we’re better than last year.

      Fournier plus Grimes > Bullock
      50% Kemba plus 50% Rose plus IQ plus Mc Bride >>>>>>>>>>>>> the disaster known as The Plague

      I understand the injury risk, but at PG we’ll be better even without Rose or Kemba, because IQ and Deuce alone are better than Payton.

      Everything else is more or less the same, but with a healty Mitch, one more year of coaching staff, youngsters’ improvement and knowledge of each other strenghts and weaknessess.
      This team is deep and usually that helps in the regular season.

      Still, It doesn’t mean we’ll finish 4th in the conference or with a better record…

    71. Hubert: It’s going to be nearly impossible to pull off an in-season trade.

      Many things I thought were impossible under the salary cap GMs seem to find a way to handle.

      JK47: Kemba Walker is a bigger injury risk than most.

      Yes he is. I read (don’t quote me) that he had chronic arthritis in his knee. Chronic meaning no cure. McBride, IQ and maybe Vildoza are reasons that I’m calm.

      As for predictions, mine sucked last year. And it’s too early for official predictions, but I’ll toss out an early 48 wins.

    72. I can’t “quote” anymore :-(

      “Danvt: What playoff team improved more than NYK? That’s my question for all posters. You can only improve and then throw the ball up.”

      My answer:

      On paper (on paper) Brooklyn and Milwaukee are a couple of tiers above us,
      Phila is better but depends on the Simmons’ situation,
      Atlanta has the same team plus Jalen Johnson and healthy Hunter and Reddish,
      Miami’s always a bad customer, Lowry’s better than Dragic and they add PJ Tucker.
      Boston has two stars, got back Horford, sign Schroder on the cheap (I don’t like him, but for 5,9M he’s a steal), re-sign Smart and Pritchard looks way better,
      Indiana will have a full year of healthy TJ Warren, Turner (barring a trade), LeVert and Lamb,
      same for Charlotte with Lamelo and Hayward (plus Bouknight, Kai Jones and Oubre),
      Washington is a better, more complete team without Westbrook and with Dinwiddle, Kuzma, Harrell and Thomas Bryant back.
      Chicago looks only 8-9 deep but its starting five can outgun anyone (and defend nobody).

      I’ll wait for the schedule to predict the win-loss record,
      as I wrote above this is a deep team,
      but I think the 4th place is the ceiling, I’d be okay with the 5th or 6th seed, I would not be surprised (but a little disappointed) if we end up in the play-in as 7th or 8th. From 9th on it would be a bad season.

    73. “we’re probably something like you’re old steve clifford teams”

      I didn’t write this. Something wrong with the quote

    74. I don’t mind pessimism. I can learn from it. But I like good posts. And I like relevant posts. Anyone can predict people are going to get hurt. Kemba got two years 18 million. If he’s definitely not going to be there at the finish line, that’s a terrible deal, but, without being too much of a homer, I’ll give the Knicks some credit for having done their due diligence.

      I actually have some pessimism, by the way. Here goes. I’m actually kind of pissed at IQ. I didn’t see one layup. He utterly failed his pg audition. I counted at least four times he got stuffed at the rim. A good post to me has observations on what we’re witnessing with some #s to back it up. Not reflexive positive or negative thoughts. Yes, maybe people get hurt. Yes, maybe there’s “regression to the mean”

    75. danvt: A good post to me has observations on what we’re witnessing with some #s to back it up.

      Well yes, but I’m rather partial to coffee snorters like this, too:

      Flag on the play.

      Unnecessary condescension.

      5 yard penalty.

      Repeat 19th pick.

    76. I got takeout at a nearby restaurant tonight. I kid you not I was waiting for them to call out my order number, 19.

      I may be cursed.

    77. In the last 20 years we’ve had 2 teams reach 48 wins in a season. If our destiny is Steve Clifford’s 48 win season several years in a row, I’ll be happy.

    78. Early Bird:
      I got takeout at a nearby restaurant tonight. I kid you not I was waiting for them to call out my order number, 19.

      I may be cursed.

      We are all cursed. It’s part of being a Knicks fan

    79. I think we have a better team than last year, but it’s because of the adds at point guard and the replacement of Bullock by Fournier. I don’t expect as much off season improvement as last year for players we kept from last year. Why? The off-season is so much shorter this time. For example, last summer Randle had tons of time to work on his shot. This season, he has maybe two months total. That’s a lot less than what I recall was more than six months off last off-season. You need a lot of reps to build up the muscle memory for something new. There just aren’t going to be as many new somethings this year as last year.

    80. I can’t “quote” anymore :-(

      the site uses that bulletin board code stuff…most of it is fairly generic…this site has the commands surround by less-than () signs instead of these things: [ ]

      so for quoting you just have to put blockquote in the middle of those things and stick the quote in between whatever ever you wanna quote

      i took out the l in blockquote, so hopefully it displays…

      edit: yeah, that explanation went exactly nowhere…sorry, i’m getting old max…

    81. And, if I read the business tea leaves right, we are in a decent position do to a ruinous 7-1 trade for someone boring who endorses products.

      hahaha!

      days where danvt chimes in >>> days when danvt blows us off to play guitar

    82. Also, we only need around $31-32M if we do trade for Lillard thanks to the 125% rule.

      Doubt we will but it’s certainly not impossible.

    83. the site uses that bulletin board code stuff…most of it is fairly generic…this site has the commands surround by less-than () signs instead of these things: [ ]

      thanks Geo, you you did your best!

      And at the third try I made it work!

      I’m getting old too :-)

    84. okay here we go – so to quote you would need to copy the part of the quote you want to use in your post…type: less-than sign, type: blockquote, type: greater-than sign, enter the quote, type less-than sign, type: forward slash, type: blockquote, type: greater-than sign…

      there it is :)

      nice max…yeah, when you use the mobile version you basically gotta type in all the commands…

    85. I’m excited to see what we do next year. That’s not something we’ve been able to say for years! Let’s be happy in that for a change.

    86. I don’t expect as much off season improvement as last year for players we kept from last year. Why? The off-season is so much shorter this time.

      this is an excellent point KfniNJ…hopefully though when we do see mitch again, he’s a little rusty, but – shooting further than a foot away from the basket…

    87. If I were to make an early prediction, I’d go with 44-38 and another frustrating playoff defeat to a team that has better high end talent. Making the second round is a tough ask. There are likely to be 4 teams better than the team that smoked us this year: Miami, Philadelphia, Brooklyn, and Milwaukee.

      Given the expected improvement in the East, if we achieve the 6 seed, I think that will be as good a result as finishing 4th last year.

    88. Hubert: days where danvt chimes in >>> days when danvt blows us off to play guitar

      Thanks, Hubert, That’s a super nice thing to say and just the encouragement I need to work less hard on my music :-)

    89. Anyone can predict people are going to get hurt.

      nobody’s predicting anyone to get hurt…. but one of our pg’s getting hurt is a serious risk… and they will miss significant time as a baseline anyway… you can choose to ignore it… but i can’t see how you could blame anyone for factoring that into our season… let alone single me out for even mentioning it….

      i rarely ever try to predict the future… it’s not some sacred timeline marvel shit… it’s not any skillful to nail a call based off of a few minutes thinking on the toilet… there’s lots of unknowns and people overestimate what they know all the time and underestimate what they need to know in order to get a small handle on future outcomes… i know cause i do that some of that kind of analysis for my work…

      A good post to me has observations on what we’re witnessing with some #s to back it up. Not reflexive positive or negative thoughts.

      if you want more of your good posts… you’re free to contribute how you like.. but if you actually read any of mine i probably put more effort into backing everything i say than anyone here… you may disagree considering how little you pay attention but there’s absolutely nothing purely emotional or reactionary to anything i do here… and it’s pretty reactionary and emotional when i get painted as some purely negative guy when i’m anything but that… esp when i have to fight the entire board not to kill rj or randle or obi…. when i touch leon rose or frank ntilikina ppl go on the warpath too..

      there’s really only one real scrooge here and i think we all know who that is.. and there’s no way i’m like that guy in anything….

    90. Given the expected improvement in the East, if we achieve the 6 seed, I think that will be as good a result as finishing 4th last year.

      our prorated record was 46 or 47 wins… which in almost any other year would’ve been a 6 seed.. and if we were in the western conf in some years.. not even in the playoffs…. so not a lot needs to happen for things to be ‘worse’ …. and that’s part of the reason why things are a bit fragile considering we’re returning largely the same team….

    91. I don’t mind pessimism. I can learn from it. But I like good posts. And I like relevant posts. Anyone can predict people are going to get hurt.

      Dan I love your appearances but this is unfair. If you think someone is being irrationally pessimistic, just say so and explain why. It’s not fair to ask people to account for potential annoyance of others when they’re offering their objective opinions in good faith. We’ve had our fair share of people who offer pessimism in less than good faith before and I’m all for calling them out, but djphan saying Kemba Walker comes with serious injury risk is not such an example.

      Anyway, our win total is pretty damn difficult to predict. I think we’ve definitely raised our ceiling compared to last season, but the East projects to be better for a variety of reasons and we took on a good amount of short-term (i.e. 2021-2022) risk.

      Kemba could be a 4 BPM player for 2000 minutes or a 0 BPM player for 800 minutes and neither scenario would be shocking. Randle could be even better than last year with some half-decent point guard play, or he could come crashing back to Earth when it comes to shooting. You could say the same thing about RJ and Quickley, though their improvement would be more independent of better point guard play. Mitch is always a wildcard. I could go on but you get it, there’s very little about this team that feels “baked in” besides I guess Fournier, Burks, and Noel’s production.

      45 wins and a tough first-round out feels about right, but I’m way less sure about how exactly we get there than usual.

    92. I like all the posts here (except the ones recapping what I missed on the Tucker Carlson show, but those have stopped now:)

      One thing I will say for the pessimist posters, like myself: we have needed to up our game. It used to be easy— blah blah Dolan, blah blah Carmelo, blah blah Phil Jackson, #lolknicks, #dolansrazor, #etc… Now, we have to have laser-focus and dig in deep on the hills we want to die on. Hills like the #19 pick, Kemba’s arthritis, Tyrese Haliburton’s armlength, and the state of Kentucky. So cut us some slack, know that we are trying, and have a little faith that at least some of the doom and gloom we forecast will come true. Thank you for your patience. -DW

    93. Lowering expectations prevents from getting hurt.
      Unexpected feel-good stories taste so much better than surprising pitfalls.

    94. i remember someone mentioning not too long ago going through some kind of cell therapy stuff (i can’t remember, i think it may have been back related, maybe not), i can’t remember whom though…just wondering how that went…

      okay, here’s a question, has anyone participated in that hyperbaric oxygen therapy stuff?

      it’s funny, i haven’t mentioned it for awhile, but, what drew me initially to participate in our discussions was because i had done some research on aging (50 is a hard line to cross) – and, one of the key consistent items i came across was social interaction, not one my strongest traits…but, it was towards general healthcare that i signed up and engaged for…that is funny…i ended up learning a little bit about basketball too…however – i did endure nearly three years of viewing shitty losing basketball as an entrance fee…

      so jealous of you donnie, of course, didn’t know you wasn’t watching the same miserable ball games i wuz until just this year – literally changed my fandom, cuz who needs more misery right??? lesson learned, be more judicious with your time…thank goodness things turned around this year though…

      so yeah, joined for socializing and all that, and i couldn’t resist the honorable cock jowles’ charm, even from afar…

    95. we’re probably something like you’re old steve clifford teams…. that’s basically the model we had in these offseasons right down to getting ole kemba…. that’s better than what we had before but it’s not some juggernaut…

      so me being WILDLY PESSIMISTIC throwing out a range of 42-46 wins … i’m some sort of heretic? improving significantly could mean that we don’t improve our win total at all? that’s interesting…

      djphan, Steve Clifford has a .458 record as a coach, that is 37.5 wins, so comparing our team with old Steve Clifford teams is a weird way to communicate that you think this team’s range is 42-46 wins. Can’t we be Vogels Pacers?, or Larry Drew’s hawks?

      Our team is still very young, talented, and we have assets to do trades, so there is lots of room for optimism. Our team’s owner is also Dolan and we rely on old PGs, so there is plenty of room for pessimism. Just be friendly to one another.

    96. “Just what is it that you want to do?
      Well, we wanna be free, we wanna be free to do what we wanna do
      And we wanna get loaded and we wanna have a good time
      And that’s what we’re gonna do”

      “I was blind, now I can see
      You made a believer out of me
      I’m movin’ on up now
      Getting out of the darkness
      My light shines on”

      Let’s go for that 3rd seed!!

    97. I think people are way too optimistic, but hey this is the time to do it, so be free to do just that. But we are dismissing the fact that last year we clearly overachieve by a lot, so making that (overachieve) to be the rule is kind of tricky.
      For me, if we can get to a winning record (42-40 or better) and the 6th seed, it’d be a good season. And even if we fall to the play-in, but with homecourt advantage (7th or 8th), and survive it to be in the playoffs, i’m ok with that.
      What we need to do, in order to establish this new Knicks culture of winning, is to be in the playoffs and do better than last year, meaning losing in 6 or 7, but showing we had a chance (because in the ATL series by game 3 we all knew what was going to happen, it wasn’t close).

    98. Knick fan not in NJ: Why? The off-season is so much shorter this time. For example, last summer Randle had tons of time to work on his shot. This season, he has maybe two months total. That’s a lot less than what I recall was more than six months off last off-season.

      I think this is important in 2 ways. Our guys will improve less than last year, as you rightfully say. But there’s also the other way… last year we benefited a lot because we were one of the “delete 8”, which means that 22 teams had a shorter than usual offseason and so that showed during the regular season. Raptors and Heat were 2 of many examples of that downfall. Atlanta was what? A fellow “delete 8” team? And overachieved? How odd, who would have thought it? :D

    99. I think people are way too optimistic, but hey this is the time to do it, so be free to do just that. But we are dismissing the fact that last year we clearly overachieve by a lot, so making that (overachieve) to be the rule is kind of tricky.

      We definitely overachieved, and I wouldn’t be surprised if one or both of Randle or RJ regressed this year. But the upgrade to the starting backcourt is a pretty drastic one, and should compensate for that regression. Replacing Elf with a genuine offensive thread who can shoot from anywhere, and replacing Bullock with a guy who can create his own shot (and create for others) while shooting roughly as well from deep should unclog a lot of the problems we had on that end of the floor. And if/when Kemba is hurt (or Thibs agrees to rest him, press conference jokes aside), our PG depth is much much better than it was for so much of last year, when our backup options were DSJ, Frank, or a less polished IQ.

      Health feels like the real key to me, more than guys no longer playing over their heads, but we also have much better overall depth. The East should be better overall, so we could end up in the play-in round. But I’d be surprised/disappointed if we went straight back to the lottery.

    100. The truth is that on paper East seems very competitive and Knicks season won’t be a walk in the park.
      Most games look pretty tough and our opponents know us better than last season and they’ll be prepared for our game7type of bball wirh their zones and their pride alerted.
      It Will all come down to effort.
      Thibs’ Knicks seem all in to give their 100% in each game and be the best version of themselves.
      Will our opponents do the same?
      Will they Die on the court for the W just like we’ll do?
      Or will they act too cool and too proud to sweat their satin jerseys for 48min?

      #EFFORT#

    101. djphan, Steve Clifford has a .458 record as a coach, that is 37.5 wins, so comparing our team with old Steve Clifford teams is a weird way to communicate that you think this team’s range is 42-46 wins. Can’t we be Vogels Pacers?, or Larry Drew’s hawks?

      i think i was pretty clear in what i meant… they fielded a pretty ok 48 win team for a year with a mix of young guys and vets and one solitary allstar level player but couldn’t replicate it a year later with largely the same team and minor step backs from a few guys… similar thing happened with clifford’s orlando team although people will triggered over their 42 win season….

      that’s not to say it can’t happen.. but it’s illustrative of what could happen if not everything goes right…. yes there are some improvements which i’m also accounting for.. i don’t expect us to tank all the way to 36 wins.. but replicating last year’s results with those same players is going to be tough and some of those improvements will probably help us not tank to 36 wins but i think expecting us to perform largely the same across the board and expect kemba and fournier to just add on 5-10 wins on top of that is a bit of a tough pill to swallow….. and i don’t think there’s anything unreasonable or weird about that…..

      if you think we’re vogel’s pacers where we have ecf in our path… then i’d love to hear what that rationale looks like… larry drew’s hawks? i don’t think they’re applicable but please share if you do…

    102. Someone said it but defense is going to be the key. Thibs pulled off a high level magic trick imo getting a top 5 defense out of our personnel last year. Noel, Mitch, and then Gibson somehow provided the spine of a serious unit.

      To me, that’s the biggest question mark. Bullock is really the only major loss. I suppose Payton too, allegedly. And Mitch will be back full time for upside, hopefully. So there are reasons to believe we can keep it going. But Fournier really is bad on defense and Kemba isn’t too great either.

      I think we will have the 20th best offense in the league and how well we do will depend on whether we are the fifth best defense or the 15th.

    103. djphan:
      since we have a settled roster… and i know we’ll get to the win total projection thread before the season starts…

      but does anyone actually think we have a chance (>25%) at a 4 seed or better? i know the answer for some people but i’m just wondering if we have anyone else who actually thinks that’s where we are at as a team… because that might explain the hostility….

      I put us btwn 4 and 7-seed. I’m not 100% sure Philly will hold onto their top-3 ranking depending on what happens w/Simmons – that’s gotta be a real fragile situation. Maybe the Hawks leapfrog them to the 3 seed?

      At any rate, for the first time in a long time I’m clapping my hands ready for the season, since fall of 2012 (damn that’s a long-ass time). We’re gonna be good – don’t know how good, but we’ll be good.

    104. thenoblefacehumper: Dan I love your appearances but this is unfair. If you think someone is being irrationally pessimistic, just say so and explain why.

      Much appreciated and point taken. I guess, the only thing I needed to get off my chest was that, after reading maybe 1500(!) posts in the last week (and trying to pay attention) it gets tedious to read certain things. So, our point guard situation being on a “knifes edge” was annoying… a bit. Because it isn’t. We have two great vets, an exciting 2nd year player and an exciting rookie. Plus, similar depth at 2. I mean, we don’t talk about points per game, right? So, I just thought I’d critique DJ a bit and hope I can help him get on a more interesting track. But, it really is like me commenting on Krugman in the Times. I know who the Nobel winner is. Just blowing off steam. All respect.

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