Knicks Morning News (2021.08.17)

  • Knicks Acquire Evan Fournier – Knicks.com
    [www.nba.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:22:17 AM

    Knicks Acquire Evan Fournier  Knicks.com

  • Bulls Rumors: Knicks let Lonzo go to Chicago ‘without a fuss’ – Pippen Ain’t Easy
    [pippenainteasy.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:05:00 AM

    Bulls Rumors: Knicks let Lonzo go to Chicago ‘without a fuss’  Pippen Ain’t Easy

  • NY Knicks: B/R says team’s biggest problem is now at center – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:00:00 AM

    NY Knicks: B/R says team’s biggest problem is now at center  Daily Knicks

  • Knicks Rumors: Spencer Dinwiddie Didn’t Find NYK ‘An Appealing Fit’ in Free Agency – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 9:46:28 AM

    Knicks Rumors: Spencer Dinwiddie Didn’t Find NYK ‘An Appealing Fit’ in Free Agency  Bleacher Report

  • Jericho Sims Flashes Vertical with Ridiculous Dunk [WATCH] – Heavy.com
    [heavy.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 9:23:03 AM

    Jericho Sims Flashes Vertical with Ridiculous Dunk [WATCH]  Heavy.com

  • 2021 NBA Power Rankings: Nets still No. 1, Knicks at No. 13 – New York Daily News
    [www.nydailynews.com] — Tuesday, August 17, 2021 7:00:00 AM

    2021 NBA Power Rankings: Nets still No. 1, Knicks at No. 13  New York Daily News

  • Knicks make 21 3s in 104-85 win over Hawks – Your Valley
    [www.yourvalley.net] — Monday, August 16, 2021 9:01:48 PM

    Knicks make 21 3s in 104-85 win over Hawks  Your Valley

  • After Going Off Against The Knicks, Hawks, Trail Blazers And Thunder, What Will He Do Against The Wizards Who Let Nets’ Cam Thomas Erupt? – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Monday, August 16, 2021 8:06:54 PM

    After Going Off Against The Knicks, Hawks, Trail Blazers And Thunder, What Will He Do Against The Wizards Who Let Nets’ Cam Thomas Erupt?  Sports Illustrated

  • NBA Rumors: This Knicks-Pacers trade is focused on Myles Turner – NBA Analysis Network
    [www.nbaanalysis.net] — Monday, August 16, 2021 8:05:51 PM

    NBA Rumors: This Knicks-Pacers trade is focused on Myles Turner  NBA Analysis Network

  • NY Knicks: Summer League roster turning heads around the NBA – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Monday, August 16, 2021 5:22:00 PM

    NY Knicks: Summer League roster turning heads around the NBA  Daily Knicks

  • Knicks news: Evan Fournier takes savage shot at Nets’ Kevin Durant – ClutchPoints
    [clutchpoints.com] — Monday, August 16, 2021 12:38:13 PM

    Knicks news: Evan Fournier takes savage shot at Nets’ Kevin Durant  ClutchPoints

  • NBA offseason grades: Lakers, Knicks, Warriors do well in free agency; Blazers, Pelicans bring down curve – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Monday, August 16, 2021 12:13:02 PM

    NBA offseason grades: Lakers, Knicks, Warriors do well in free agency; Blazers, Pelicans bring down curve  CBS Sports

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    79 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2021.08.17)”

    1. Interesting that they got 2 second-round picks together with Fournier. Yes that trade exception for Boston may be useful for them, but you take the assets.

      In other news, it’s amazing how Berman covers basketball for a living and seems unable to understand that contracts and assets matter:

      It’s very Knicks-like, signing a player [Kemba] moving beyond his golden years rather than an emerging player entering his golden years. Nevertheless, Knicks fans, riding high after their first playoff season since 2012-13, seem to adore this move, judging by social media.

    2. Remember how in the previous thread I was talking about the question of whether Thibs would program in rest days for Kemba? Well…

      @IanBegley
      Kemba Walker was asked if there is a plan for him to sit on second game of back to backs this season. He smiles and says, “You have to ask Thibs”, pointing to Tom Thibodeau in the front row of the press conference. Thibs’ response? “Playing.” A lot of laughter in the room.

      I mean, it was done as a joke, but still.

    3. [porting this over from the previous thread]

      Raven, Grimes’ high school pedigree has me at least vaguely wondering if there might be more to unlock from him than just a potential high-level role player type. That said, there are lots of top high schoolers who struggle as one-and-dones, get drafted anyway because of said pedigree in the hopes their brief college career was an aberration, and then don’t improve in the pros. That Grimes stayed at that level and remade his game means he’s not likely to be a bust, but it may be that the more ball-dominant game that Kansas’ recruiters saw was a mirage, and the Houston guy is just who he is.

    4. If Grimes can keep firing away 3s at the rate he did in SL & college, he might be an all-star yet. But NBA defense should prove a lot tougher than SL.

      Grimes seems smart and capable enough to pick up a few assists here and there, but attacking the hoop in the regular season may look more like the first few SL games instead of the last.

    5. shifting the focus to us, I fail to see how we have enough ammunition to acquire a superstar and field a title worthy team with what’s leftover. We don’t have any high end talent that is expendable.

      Absolutely a fair concern and definitely yet another reason to be upset we *looks around* incinerated the 19th overall pick. I’d feel a lot better about our potential package if we had Jalen Johnson or Cam Thomas right now (yeah, it’s very early, sue me, I was high on them before summer league too).

      Having said that, I don’t view our potential package as markedly worse than most teams’. We have the option of throwing all the picks at the wall a la the Nets’ deal for Harden, and if McBride and/or Grimes turn out to be serious contributors that would allow us to more painlessly include Quickley…and I suppose RJ if it came to that.

      At the end of the day, if our plan breaks right we won’t be competing with 29 other teams anyway. We’ll be competing with whoever else is on the player’s list. I feel pretty good about our asset chest compared to the logical other possibilities when you account for that.

    6. I definitely think we can win a bidding war for a superstar. I just don’t know if we can afford to. And I wouldn’t be going after anyone over 30 in the trade market. You have to get someone young enough to allow you to regain assets over time.

    7. I think it’s going to come down to whether we’re willing to include RJ in a deal or not, regardless of draft assets.

    8. Wow! Knicks morning news is back! Can this summer have in store even more surprises for us? :D

    9. If Kemba’s Knicks tenure amounts to much more than just a ride off into the sunset wearing the colors of his hometown team, then that may, at least, somewhat vindicate the FO’s handling of the 19th pick.

      While the ~$3 million in cap savings would have been pretty negligible in any deal for a top name, big $ free agent/ sign & trade target, it did turn out to pay for 1/3 of Kemba’s annual salary, a not insignificant amount. Of course, we have no way of knowing how much foreknowledge the FO may have had as to Kemba’s pending availability at the time the 19th pick was traded. No doubt that’s something that will be endlessly debated here for months (years?) to come. Regardless of whether the signing of Kemba was just a lucky windfall or the result of some really crafty behind-the-scenes planning, it may well not have been possible without that extra 3 million in cap $.

      Personally, I still would rather have seen the FO use the 19th pick to draft a player. But I also reserve the right to change my mind and laud it as a better use of that $3 million in cap space if Kemba turns out to be all that and a bag of crisps. Should Kemba prove to be little more than a broken down husk of his former self, I will, of course, remain annoyed about the wasted opportunity long after the picks have been conveyed from Charlotte. Because I am a fan. That’s what I do.

    10. I’d have to imagine Leon is monitoring Zions situation very closely in New Orleans with all the rumblings hes upset with the team

    11. I have a feeling that this team could possibly have some legit guard depth for the first time in what seems like decades to me. The combination of Barrett, Fournier, Kemba, Rose, IQ, Grimes, McBride could be a nice mix of youth and experience.

    12. It may be very fortunate that the two guards we drafted both look good because I’m a little less enthusiastic about the Kemba signing than I was initially. We all knew he was 31 and had knee issues, but I was under the impression they were the kind of knee issues that could be treated (or corrected with surgery if required) and he could be back close to 100%. I didn’t realize it was an arthritis problem until I started reading old articles out of Boston and interviews with doctors about the prognosis. This is going to be an ongoing problem with little way of improving the situation. We’ll probably be lucky to get 50-60 games out of him. Boston tried to save him for the playoffs. That’s probably what we’ll try to do also. But in general, with a better understanding of his situation and Rose as the alternative, there’s more risk in the backcourt than I thought. I still think it was worth doing because he came so cheaply and it’s not a long term deal, but I’m not as enthusiastic as the casual fan base.

    13. While the ~$3 million in cap savings

      The ~3 million was partly a short term consideration for this year about how best to use their assets now. However, retaining the pick makes it a long term asset in a trade or for a player they like better in a future draft that could be even stronger due to one and done rules being changed. We did not “incinerate” that pick the way some people are suggesting. lmao That’s nonsense.

    14. it may well not have been possible without that extra 3 million in cap $.

      that’s not true unless you think the 19th pick was worth less than rostering villdoza or knox….

    15. Cutting Knox saves us $0 in cap space, and we’d have had to attach an asset to dump him on someone else. And I’m not sure we’ll be rostering Vildoza, after all. We still haven’t technically re-signed Rose or Burks, and I think part of that is the front office figuring out if Vildoza’s worth keeping.

    16. Zion would have to convince New Orleans that he is willing to forgo a $200mm contract and accept a qualifying offer. That’s a big ask.

    17. The only reason to keep Vildoza is if you are worried Kemba/Rose are likely to miss a lot of games and you don’t think McBride or Quick are good enough PG options (especially if both should be out at the same time). Those are the 3rd string options. Other than that, Vildoza showed very little in the Olympics and even less in limited minutes for NY. I have no idea what their plan is. Maybe they want to keep working with him to take a better look, but so far, there’s nothing to see.

    18. Cutting Knox saves us $0 in cap space, and we’d have had to attach an asset to dump him on someone else. And I’m not sure we’ll be rostering Vildoza, after all. We still haven’t technically re-signed Rose or Burks, and I think part of that is the front office figuring out if Vildoza’s worth keeping.

      In an unlikely worst-case scenario in which we both couldn’t dump Knox without an asset and our free agents wouldn’t have agreed to the small first-year salary cut associated with dividing the $2.7M cap hold by five, we still could’ve stretched Knox.

      His $1.9M stretched figure plus the $2.7M cap hold would’ve actually given us ~$1.1M more in space than we had.

    19. Cutting Knox saves us $0 in cap space, and we’d have had to attach an asset to dump him on someone else.

      we could’ve sent knox back to okc .. who had plenty of room on their cap and roster and they could’ve just waived him at any point… if they were going to ask for something it wouldn’t have been much….

      point being there’s plenty of proof that we had a lot more wiggle room that didn’t necessitate vaporizing the 19th to clear cap room… it’s backwards rationalization and it was very clearly done for other reasons…

    20. What could those other reasons possibly have been? At least punting on 19 as the most expedient way of clearing cap space makes a modicum of sense, even if you don’t agree with it. I can’t think of anything else that does.

    21. @wojespn
      Taj Gibson’s deal with the Knicks has been restructured, agent Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tells ESPN: Gibson will now sign a two-year, $10.1M deal to return to New York. He had originally agreed to a one-year deal.

      I… do not understand how the salary cap math on this works. And also am not wild about paying Taj anything above the vet minimum, even given how well he played for us last season. we’ve just devoted so many resources to that position.

    22. Taj Gibson's deal with the Knicks has been restructured, agent Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tells ESPN: Gibson will now sign a two-year, $10.1M deal to return to New York. He had originally agreed to a one-year deal.— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) August 17, 2021

      So…Taj is getting the room exception. Hard to say exactly what this means other than if Vildoza is waived, he’s gone for good.

      Probably nothing in the grand scheme of things, but a bit odd. We know Taj was willing to sign for the minimum, so what exactly was the point of this? Even if we had no realistic targets left this offseason, the room exception could’ve been useful during the season.

    23. What could those other reasons possibly have been? At least punting on 19 as the most expedient way of clearing cap space makes a modicum of sense, even if you don’t agree with it. I can’t think of anything else that does.

      that we didn’t value any other rookie beyond grimes.. mcbride and sims… on this squad to the point that they would rather accept the possibility of not making a consequential pick with it ever than to actually use it … ie. we couldn’t support more than four rookies on the team… or rather two rookies on the squad since sims is likely just seeing gleague time…

      mind you that also makes very little sense.. but that’s the only real justification for it considering we can make that 3mm in room in any number of very easy avenues … this is not about me disagreeing with it…. if we traded the 19th pick for cap room then we valued it less than villdoza and knox and that’s even worse than whatever other reason is out there….

      and that’s factorial…

    24. @Alan,

      We have enough room to keep everyone with capspace without waiving Vildoza.

      Between the Fournier S&T and the unlikely bonuses in Noel’s contract, the Knicks saved enough to add Deuce under the cap without anything fancy.

      For anyone interested, the S&T let’s us start Fournier at a lower salary b/c the 8% raises from staying with your team gets the contract to $78M from the lower number. Based on the reported TPE, that’s how the contract is structured.

    25. We likely opted to use the Room on Taj to make salary matching easier if there’s a trade/reward to Taj.

      I assume year 2 of Taj’s deal is a team option.

      Also, we likely keep Vildoza based on this move otherwise we gave up our last method of adding a player of consequence.

    26. Alan: I… do not understand how the salary cap math on this works. And also am not wild about paying Taj anything above the vet minimum, even given how well he played for us last season. we’ve just devoted so many resources to that position.

      I’ll wait for other details (and the final picture on the off-season) but at first glance it’s a puzzling move.

    27. It’s hysterical how you guys have become so obsessed with that 19th pick. lol

      They obviously didn’t see anyone at 19 they liked more than Grimes. They would have drafted Grimes at 19 if they had to.

      They obviously didn’t see anyone at 21 they thought was good value for 1st round money and better than other alternatives they had in mind.

      Just let it sink in.

      They did not want to add some miscellaneous 1st rounder this year, pay 1st round money, and have to move someone else to create a roster spot just because they had a pick this year.

      They wanted a little extra cap space this year.

      They wanted to retain that excess pick for a future trade.

      So they took the best deal available.

      You may not agree with their plan or see someone you loved at 19 and 21, but they did not see anyone they liked enough to pay 1st round money to.

      It looks like they made 2 very good picks, still have an extra pick for the future, and have the team they actually wanted instead of some player you wanted.

    28. Taj’s new contract + Mitch + Knox for Myles Turner work now?

      Taj (and anyone else on a new free agent contract, even someone staying with the same team) can’t be traded til December 15. That said, we’d be pretty close, though maybe a bit short. Jeremy Cohen said we would have to send Indiana around $13 million in salaries, and I think the three of them would add up to slightly less than that.

    29. OK – whew. Gives us some time to see if the Block Ness Monster can come back fully from that foot injury.
      Thanks Alan!

    30. You may not agree with their plan or see someone you loved at 19 and 21, but they did not see anyone they liked enough to pay 1st round money to.

      We are all well-aware of their calculation. It is incredibly obvious. They didn’t think there was anyone worth a 4/$13M contract. We disagree.

      Saying “they didn’t think anyone was worth a 4/$13M contract” is thus not a defense of the move. It’s literally just a restatement of the calculation we think was badly flawed.

      It’s like saying “well, you have to understand that Phil Jackson thought Joakim Noah was worth 4/$72M” in defense of that move. We know exactly what he thought, and we thought it was dumb.

    31. Just curious what the plan B was in case Grimes and Mcbride did not last to us. Of course you could say their connections projected them to be available but you cant be 100%.

    32. kevin5318:
      Just curious what the plan B was in case Grimes and Mcbride did not last to us. Of course you could say their connections projected them to be available but you cant be 100%.

      Bones Hyland and Sharife Cooper?

    33. djphan: that’s not true unless you think the 19th pick was worth less than rostering villdoza or knox….

      thenoblefacehumper: We are all well-aware of their calculation. It is incredibly obvious. They didn’t think there was anyone worth a 4/$13M contract. We disagree.

      I dont understand why you keep acting as if arent owed a 1st round pick down the road. The FO considered that the difference between the 19th and whatever pick we get in the future is not worth giving up on Vildoza or Knox. And the FO thought that paying someone 4/$13 in this particular draft with the particular choices we had available was not worth the chance of doing the same in a future draft.

      I do understand that you think that FO is wrong and that we lost value in the deal, and that is perfectly fair. But please, do not leave out the future 1st we are owed, for the sake of the sanity of this board.

    34. I dont understand why you keep acting as if arent owed a 1st round pick down the road.

      because it’s not guaranteed to be a first rd pick and actually it’s a distinct possibility that it won’t be… which means it’s something much less than a first rd pick and it cannot be valued as such… this isn’t like the dallas 2023 pick which only have top 10 protections… this also has less value than any of our own first rd picks .. even with top 15 protections.. also right? i mean we can agree it has significantly less value than all of those right?

      if you can agree to that then this probably has something like a high second rd value… we incinerated a lot of value when accepting this deal… even if it conveys next year you’re supposed to get something in return for delaying your pick… like okc got two firsts for trading out two slots ahead of us…. what we got was the 6th best draft pick that’s thrown-in a megadeal…

    35. Happy Bextremelylated Birthday to Dude and Jowles!

      Haven’t watched the SL game vs Atl yet but seen the other ones and feel pretty good about our rookies.
      IQ belongs in the league.
      Obi seems to me like a pretty good kid that’s too cool and needs to change his mentality a bit if he wants to stay in this league.

      After trading the #33 and the #19 draft picks i believe it’s a way to honour our retired jerseys so if we get the #10, #12 , #15, #22, #24 or even#613 draft pick somehow i expect us to trade it without second thoughts!

      I somehow expect Frank Ntilikina back!

    36. We are all well-aware of their calculation. It is incredibly obvious. They didn’t think there was anyone worth a 4/$13M contract. We disagree.

      It goes beyond player value at 19.

      They still have an asset they may need as part of a trade that provides a player that’s way better than they could ever have added in the draft. We KNOW the plan is to trade for a star. If that doesn’t work out they can still use that pick to eventually get a player they actually like later.

      The treatment of that deal is approximately equal to someone worrying that he has a hole in his pants pocket and might lose a quarter. It’s even sillier than that because the move could turn out to be a huge plus if that pick is needed for an important trade but we wasted it on the next Knox or Frank. Oh wait, I forget. You guys are all geniuses that never get any pick wrong. :-)

    37. Knew Your Nicks: i believe it’s a way to honour our retired jerseys so if we get the #10, #12 , #15, #22, #24 or even #613 draft pick somehow i expect us to trade it without second thoughts!

      Lol, you’re winning this tiresome thread by a lot, probably by much more than the value of the 19th, and I actually think Jalen Johnson would be a player.

    38. @BobbyMarks42
      Breakdown of the Evan Fournier contract in NYK

      21/22- $17.14M
      22/23- $18M
      23/24- $18.85M
      24/25- $19M (Team)

      Total of $73M

      $1.5M in unlikely bonuses per season (total of $6M)

    39. They still have an asset they may need as part of a trade that provides a player that’s way better than they could ever have added in the draft. We KNOW the plan is to trade for a star. If that doesn’t work out they can still use that pick to eventually get a player they actually like later.

      you know if they had taken a good player they would still have an asset, right?

      If you’re putting together a trade package tomorrow, Jalen Johnson is a better chip than the most protected 1st in the NBA.

    40. thenoblefacehumper: So… Taj is getting the room exception. (…) Probably nothing in the grand scheme of things, but a bit odd. We know Taj was willing to sign for the minimum, so what exactly was the point of this? Even if we had no realistic targets left this offseason, the room exception could’ve been useful during the season.

      This can only mean they’re planning on use this money on a future trade (from Dec 15 until the trade deadline).

      Early Bird: We have enough room to keep everyone with capspace without waiving Vildoza.
      Between the Fournier S&T and the unlikely bonuses in Noel’s contract, the Knicks saved enough to add Deuce under the cap without anything fancy.

      Congrats Bird, that’s exactly it, with Fournier’s S&T now the math works perfectly fine (without waiving Vildoza).

      Alan: Jeremy Cohen said we would have to send Indiana around $13 million in salaries, and I think the three of them would add up to slightly less than that.

      Well, Taj’s improved salary allows those three (Mitch, Knox, Taj) and Vildoza to match Turner’s salary. With Turner and Noel, Sims could be the 3rd option at C, so Mitch and Taj are naturally replaced by the trade. As for the other two, frankly, who gives a damn if Knox and Vildoza are on the team?

    41. I would have taken Jalen Johnson, but he’s not a shooter. I’m sure if Duarte, Moody, Kispert, or Murphy were there they would have taken them. Have either of those guys looked better that Grimes?

    42. diphan,

      First, we don’t know for certain that the pick we have now will have less value than the pick we gave up. Subsequent drafts may be stronger because of a potential change to the one and done rule. If that happens, more value will be available in future drafts than in this current one. 19 in this draft might be equal to 25 in future drafts (or whatever). That was almost certainly a small part of the valuation thinking (or at least should have been).

      Secondly, sometimes you can’t just think of things in terms of current intrinsic value. You also have to consider opportunity. If they made that pick this year not only would they have had to open a roster spot and give up someone else they wanted, they might also eventually lose out on a trade later because they don’t have the assets to pull it off. Sometimes it makes sense to give up some current value for an opportunity at greater future value. That’s basically what Warren Buffett does every time he holds cash. He can always find better stock value than holding cash, but he keeps a lot cash around and gives up a little near term value because he wants a loaded gun when an elephant becomes available. The Knicks are big game hunting and need an elephant gun. They want and feel they needed that pick. It’s an elephant bullet.

      Lastly, they almost certainly called up a lot of teams looking to trade that 19th pick. You can’t simply say “we should have gotten this or that for that pick”. You can get what the market is offering. If that was the best offer for 19, that means a lot of other teams didn’t want to give up a future first round pick for 19 in this draft. If it was a screaming bargain, other teams would have stepped up to the plate and offered more.

    43. Early Bird: Also, we likely keep Vildoza based on this move otherwise we gave up our last method of adding a player of consequence.

      I think that’s not true, Bird. We still haven’t sign DRose yet, so as he’s the only one that has a cap hold lower than his salary, until we sign him we could waive Vildoza and have that money (3.3M) to sign another player (basically replacing Vildoza with another guy at the same money).

    44. Hubert: you know if they had taken a good player they would still have an asset, right?

      If you’re putting together a trade package tomorrow, Jalen Johnson is a better chip than the most protected 1st in the NBA.

      A player is also an asset, but in trades for top tier talent most teams are looking for high end young talent (like RJ) or picks where they can make their own selections based on their own appraisal and needs.

      You can always find some player in every draft that turned out to be a bargain after the fact. If the Knicks liked Jalen Johnson more than the pick they got and flexibility, they would have selected him at 19.

    45. Sometimes it makes sense to give up some current value for an opportunity at greater future value. That’s basically what Warren Buffett does every time he holds cash. He can always find better stock value than holding cash, but he keeps a lot cash around and gives up a little near term value because he wants a loaded gun when an elephant becomes available.

      But when Warren Buffet holds cash, he gets paid interest for it. He doesn’t trade a dollar today for something that has the maximum value of a dollar in the future, and could easily fall to 25 cents.

    46. **I think that’s not true, Bird. We still haven’t sign DRose yet, so as he’s the only one that has a cap hold lower than his salary, until we sign him we could waive Vildoza and have that money (3.3M) to sign another player (basically replacing Vildoza with another guy at the same money).**

      You’re right that they can do that. I probably should phrase it that if they planned to add another player they would be better off having $5M free rather than $3.3M free.

      Also, I’m just not sure who else we’d grab at this point.

    47. Knew Your Nicks: After trading the #33 and the #19 draft picks i believe it’s a way to honour our retired jerseys so if we get the #10, #12 , #15, #22, #24 or even#613 draft pick somehow i expect us to trade it without second thoughts!

      LOL! One of the best explanations for the “incinerated picks” (trademark here) , we should start a contest to get the best explanation, at least it would be much funnier than 2 sides that don’t agree with each other continuing to argue why they don’t agree with each other. :P

    48. I’m sure if Duarte, Moody, Kispert, or Murphy were there they would have taken them. Have either of those guys looked better that Grimes?

      I’m curious about this myself, having only paid attention to the Knicks’ games. Duarte looked fine in game against us, but I didn’t follow him beyond that, and we didn’t go against the others.

    49. Hubert: I would support this if the Knicks got good value for the pick. They didn’t. They traded it for less than it was worth.

      Warren Buffet never used his cash to buy bonds with a negative yield.

      When he keeps cash with a negative real yield and doesn’t buy some mildly undervalued stock he is throwing away value just the same.

      Really though, when you look at all the considerations, we are debating whether the Knicks lost a quarter because it dropped through a hole in their pants or whether it might turn out to have been a good move because they need the pick. It’s not something worth the length of this discussion.

    50. Alan: $1.5M in unlikely bonuses per season (total of $6M)

      So, by the numbers Bobby Marks tweeted, it’s the bonuses making the money work, and the salary has the yearly standard raise (5%). Either way, the math is working now and we don’t need to waive Vildoza.

    51. Yeah, sounds like we made the trade just for the picks because BOS wanted the TPE really bad.

      Despite the fact the pick isn’t likely to be good, TPEs often expire without use. I’m thinking we won this trade.

      I like that we keep taking potshots at these weird picks, e.g., top-55 protected, swap rights with LAC. Eventually we’ll hit on one of the picks, even if the FO is just doing it for PR purposes to report as two 2nds instead of 1.

    52. First, we don’t know for certain that the pick we have now will have less value than the pick we gave up.

      strat.. what’s the best pick do you think we could get back for the charlotte pick? do you think we can get the 19th pick back again with any other team?

      Subsequent drafts may be stronger because of a potential change to the one and done rule. If that happens, more value will be available in future drafts than in this current one. 19 in this draft might be equal to 25 in future drafts (or whatever). That was almost certainly a small part of the valuation thinking (or at least should have been).

      first off… double drafts with high schoolers wouldn’t make the pool so much deeper where the 20th pick would be insanely good… getting someone like jalen johnson at 19 was already insane value and it’d be hard to replicate…

      second… we already know what double drafts look like and they don’t look all that much better than other regular drafts because guys projected in the late first would likely put off declaring ….

      third… this whole double draft thing is probably not occurring anymore since there’s been zero buzz and the union has little motivation to drop the age limit and neither does the nba….

      You also have to consider opportunity. If they made that pick this year not only would they have had to open a roster spot and give up someone else they wanted, they might also eventually lose out on a trade later because they don’t have the assets to pull it off.

      and these other roster spots are…. villdoza and kevin knox? jericho sims? that’s the opportunity cost we’re talking about?

      You can’t simply say “we should have gotten this or that for that pick”.

      um yes you can.. it’s not hard to get commensurate value in a trade… what were you saying when we traded for bargnani and curry?

    53. It’s not something worth the length of this discussion.

      then why are you talking about it? I’m not trying to convince anyone that it was a bad trade. I don’t care what you think about it. I didn’t like it. Let me not like it.

    54. Imagine getting the same players without any trade maneuvers.
      At 19,21,32,58.

      Compare it with reality

    55. Both 2nds are 2023 picks, so we potentially have 8 picks in the double draft if CHA manages to finish top 5 in the league & DAL avoids bottom 10.

    56. I don’t care what you think about it. I didn’t like it. Let me not like it.

      resistance is futile hubie…

    57. Maybe Jalen Johnson will be great, but there’s no way to tell yet. What you can tell is that the market, that is the thirty teams participating in the draft, did not think he was a great find. Otherwise we would have gotten a better offer for the 19th pick than the one we accepted. I don’t know how much time the Knicks had to shop around for a deal, but assuming they did some bargaining, I concludes that NBA teams thought the middle of this draft was very meh. Otherwise the Knicks would have gotten a better offer. So I can’t get too upset about the trade. I’m more concerned that we did alright with the players we did get.

    58. Was just listening to “Hey Nineteen” by Steely Dan and had to turn it off.

      You guys have ruined that numeral for me…

    59. d-mar:
      Was just listening to “Hey Nineteen” by Steely Dan and had to turn it off.

      You guys have ruined that numeral for me…

      Good one. :-D

    60. about the ‘double draft’… this is more speculation but my feeling is that we won’t see straight from hs players enter the draft for a long while… there’s lots of reasons but the i think the most highly visible one is what’s going on with the gleague ignite program and overtime elite…

      gleague ignite and overtime elite are signing a lot of players… particularly the latter.. and i think the league is trying this out to compete with the ncaa… the ncaa kind of struck back with the image and likeness pay program… as some high schoolers .. like 16-17yo.. were getting big money to go play in overtime elite…

      the nba doesn’t care who goes where before they reach the nba.. they just want their stars to be marketable so they come in with a fanbase and that they can bring in new fans.. the ncaa was getting a lot of bad buzz over it’s lawsuits and people forgoing them in favor of foreign leagues which benefits nobody (at least stateside)… overtime elite is marketed as reaching a new generation of viewers and they have serious financial backers and i can see the nba buying it out eventually… in all the ncaa has lots of competitors now…

      so i don’t think the nba will implode the ncaa to pro’s program before fleshing out what the gleague and overtime elite thing is about… it’s in its infancy and it could go lots of ways but those ways won’t happen for at least a few years… having a zion type of following entering the nba helps the nba grow and the ncaa is good for generating that kind of buzz for it’s stars and the nba won’t ditch that easily… i think we will see this decade this whole prep to pro’s thing get answered sooner or later though but what it will look like could get very interesting… but we’re far away from answering it…

      so tldr.. don’t expect the double draft to come anytime soon…. i think givony and woo have also said as much so it’s not just my opinion…

    61. D-mar and Donnie that’s some funny shit. My daughter’s jersey number is 19, I might force her to switch it…

    62. I am reading Orwell and have taken to calling it ‘84.

      Obviously Big Brother looked at all models of government and decided the only one worth considering was a totalitarian state. If he thought democracy was a good idea, he would have instituted it. Ultimately he got the system he wanted, and that’s all that matters. It’s cool that you like individuality and freedom, but we just couldn’t make room for them.

      If you disagree, the thought police will attack you relentlessly until you are gone.

    63. I dont understand why you keep acting as if arent owed a 1st round pick down the road.

      Because we aren’t. This is simply an objectively untrue statement. We are owed a first-round pick if the Charlotte Hornets make the playoffs between now and 2024-2025 (and for the next two seasons, we still don’t get one if they aren’t one of the worst playoff teams by record), an occurrence over which we have zero control. Otherwise we are owed two second round picks, despite the fact that we traded a top 20 first-round pick in a draft widely regarded as deep.

      Because of this, no one except Strat, who is making stuff up about double drafts and preferring players in draft classes that do not yet exist, is even pretending there’s upside for us in this trade or that we didn’t lose it in terms of value. Its other defenders are merely arguing the drop off in value isn’t that severe so people shouldn’t be allowed to be upset about it, or something.

      We willingly accepted an obvious diminution in value, so one of two things is true:

      1) the front office didn’t think anyone was worth a 4/$13M contract, like I said
      2) the front office actually didn’t realize they were accepting a diminution in value, which would be wildly more concerning than the first scenario

      What you can tell is that the market, that is the thirty teams participating in the draft, did not think he was a great find. Otherwise we would have gotten a better offer for the 19th pick than the one we accepted.

      There is quite literally no NBA transaction you couldn’t defend with this logic.

      “What you can tell is the market dictated Joakim Noah was worth 4/$72M, otherwise we wouldn’t have paid him that amount.”

      “What you can tell is other teams thought Frank Ntilikina and Kevin Knox were lottery picks, otherwise we wouldn’t have drafted them there.”

      It’s a line of reasoning that literally posits the front office can do no wrong.

    64. Why does everyone assume that Grimes and McBride were the guys they were targeting all along? Just because we picked them doesn’t mean we coveted them. Maybe Leon thought Isiah Jackson or Cam Thomas or Jaden Springer were going to fall to us and they didn’t, so he went with the best available.

      He’s not psychic. He didn’t know exactly where every player was going to get drafted and play 4D chess to get his guys AND free assets in the process.

      Right now there are 30 GMs telling their fans that they got the guy they wanted all along. Most of them are full of shit.

    65. post deleted

      [Rather than requesting a deletion, I decided it was faster an easier to delete it myself. The joke didn’t read well after I wrote and posted it. Carry on.]

    66. Because we aren’t. This is simply an objectively untrue statement. We are owed a first-round pick if the Charlotte Hornets make the playoffs between now and 2024-2025 (and for the next two seasons, we still don’t get one if they aren’t one of the worst playoff teams by record), an occurrence over which we have zero control. Otherwise we are owed two second round picks, despite the fact that we traded a top 20 first-round pick in a draft widely regarded as deep.

      It is also objectively untrue that we arent owed anything, which I understood it was implied from your previous comments. Apologies if it was not your intention to imply that.

    67. I was going to recommend this fun “Name That Random NBA Player (from 1990s to today)” Quiz, but after I got the first seventy questions correct, I just couldn’t force myself to finish (and I really wanted that 100%). I ain’t doing a fucking 100 question quiz, even a fun one like this. I am impressed with my 70/70, as there were some tough ones in there! Plus, a number of Knicks, which was fun!

      https://explore.thesportsontap.com/random-nba-players-quiz

    68. That was a fun quiz, thanks for sharing that Brian. I gave up after 30 or so, i agree 100 questions is way too long for my attention span. Surprised myself by only missing a few good for over 90%. Some truly random dudes on that list.

    69. FWIW, I kept going, and it gave me my score after 52 questions, not 100.

      Well, that’s irritating! I was still getting new questions at #71 when I stopped. How’d you do with your 52?

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