Knicks Morning News (2017.03.22)

  • [ESPN] Wednesday’s Knicks News: Fisher knows fight with Barnes hurt his stock with players
    (Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:04:09 AM)

    Wednesday’s Knicks News: Fisher knows fight with Barnes hurt his stock with players

  • [ESPN] Shaq defends triangle, says players stubborn
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 4:58:30 PM)

    Shaq defends triangle, says players stubborn

  • [ESPN] Bulls dynasty architect Krause dies at 77
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 2:51:01 PM)

    Bulls dynasty architect Krause dies at 77

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony: Jeff Hornacek plans to start resting veterans
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 7:48:00 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony was the last Knick to leave the gym as he got in a workout after practice. He might be doing this more often to stay in shape because he likely will be playing less and less.

  • [NY Newsday] Shaquille O’Neal says Knicks’ bad habits damage the triangle
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 3:39:00 PM)

    Shaquille O’Neal believes in Phil Jackson and the triangle offense, and he said neither has been successful with the Knicks because “guys are stubborn” and are being ball stoppers.

  • [SNY Knicks] Daily News Live: Will Carmelo stay with Knicks?
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 8:23:33 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Shaq blames players for triangle failure in New York
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:14:25 PM)

    Shaquille O’Neal praised Knicks team president Phil Jackson and credited his triangle offense as a main reason for the Lakers winning three championships while the two were together in Los Angeles

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek: Knicks never made the extra pass
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:55:06 AM)

    Jeff Hornacek does not think the Knicks played like a team this season, never making the extra pass to a teammate for a better shot.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo knew ‘revived’ Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim wouldn’t retire
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 8:44:59 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony never believed that Jim Boeheim, his college coach and friend, would retire after the 2017-18 season.

  • [NYDN] Derek Fisher admits Matt Barnes fight hurt standing with Knicks
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 8:41:44 PM)

    Derek Fisher has changed his tune regarding the infamous altercation with Matt Barnes.

  • [NYDN] Knicks will begin reducing Carmelo Anthony’s minutes
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 8:39:37 PM)

    Head coach Jeff Hornacek informed Carmelo Anthony today that he’ll reduce the All Star forward’s workload over the final 12 games.

  • [NYDN] Shaq still has faith in Phil Jackson to turn Knicks around
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 3:26:56 PM)

    Shaquille O’Neal won three NBA championships under Phil Jackson and he still believes his old boss will eventually turn around the Knicks.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo wonders if he’ll ever be a title contender with Knicks
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 6:00:16 AM)

    The days of Carmelo Anthony saying “I believe in Phil” are long gone.

  • [NYTimes] After Serge Ibaka and Robin Lopez Are Ejected, Raptors Rally Past Bulls
    (Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:48:15 AM)

    Ibaka and Lopez were ejected from the game after exchanging punches near the basket, and Toronto proceeded to come back from a 16-point deficit.

  • [NYTimes] Jerry Krause, Who Gave Michael Jordan His Supporting Cast, Dies at 77
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:31:19 PM)

    The former Bulls general manager orchestrated the team’s dynasty of the 1990s, assembling the rosters that Jordan led to six N.B.A. championships.

  • [NYPost] ‘He was one of us’: NYC, NBA world remember John Andariese
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:10:05 PM)

    Warm words flowed amid laughter and tears at the Fordham Chapel Tuesday as family, friends and acquaintances paid respects to beloved longtime Knicks color analyst John Andariese. Some themes during the funeral Mass and service were heard over and over: gentleman, classy, caring, loving. But maybe Knicks and NBA announcer Mike Breen, who, in quoting…

  • [NYPost] Knicks tell Carmelo to get used to the bench
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:06:18 PM)

    SALT LAKE CITY — With the Knicks down 25 points, Carmelo Anthony sat out the fourth quarter at Staples Center on Monday against the Clippers. With the season down to a dirty dozen games, Anthony better get used a view from the bench — even in closer contests. One day after he sounded as if…

  • [NYPost] Phil Jackson remembers Jerry Krause, who saved him
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 4:06:10 PM)

    SALT LAKE CITY — Knicks president Phil Jackson released a statement to acknowledge the death of former Bulls general manager Jerry Krause, who didn’t just construct Chicago’s dynasty but made the Zen Master a coaching legend. Although Jackson warred with Krause across their final two years together, he paid his respects and gave him his…

  • [NYPost] Shaq blames Knicks players for failing Phil Jackson’s blueprint
    (Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:42:32 AM)

    SALT LAKE CITY — Knicks president Phil Jackson has been accused of being a fool for insisting on employing the triangle offense, but the host of “Shaqtin’ A Fool” credits his three Lakers titles to the system. Shaquille O’Neal, in a stout defense of Jackson’s ridiculed offense, said Knicks players need to stop being “stubborn,’’…

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    122 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2017.03.22)”

    1. Doesn’t matter where Lonzo ends, NBA players are gonna be out to get him for his dads comments.

      It will be like Linsanity vs.the Heat for his entire rookie year.

    2. Since when is an 18 year old kid responsible for what his stupid dad says?

    3. if the season ended now, that one very celebrated by some win against Philly would be responsible for losing us 2 lottery spots.

      the Pelicans and Mavs seem to be out of the competition, now my biggest fear is Minnesota… the Kings are probably ending lower than the Knicks and it’s fair to assume both the Magic and the Sixers are so terrible that it would be a miracle if they didn’t, so at least a top 7 pick is kinda guaranteed.

    4. That’s a really interesting article about Shaq’s view of the triangle. I believe him. And what he says about the second unit is what I have noticed a couple of times.

    5. @3 I’d probably blame our first 24 games,when we were 14-10 and were 6-0 in games decided by less than 5 points, more than that one win vs the 6ers. You have to admit the Knicks have done a great job of tanking since Christmas…I think the whole KB must have sent Santa a letter wishing for a top 5 pick ;)

    6. Very true. And we aren’t going to get a number one or number two pick, and there are is a lot of debate about the guys who come after Ball or Fultz. This means to me that there are a lot of relatively equal prospects after the first two. The next set of guys seems very good, so we have a good chance to get a good player regardless of our record for the rest of the season. So,in a way, we’ve already tanked enough. Now we can just work on getting better for next year

    7. No one out there who has played the triangle is hating on it. The only ones that are railing against it are our crack media men (Isola, etc), and fans who are just plain tired of hearing about it.

      I listen to Coach Nick’s podcast and watch his videos, and he spends a ton of time saying that the Knicks aren’t playing the triangle, at all; he counted the number of triangle plays as 5/52 or something in the game after they announced they were gonna play it. He also says that we’re playing it only out of the pinch post and with only some slow telegraphed plays coming afterward. There’s four other ways of starting the action, and a 2-3 second rule on holding the ball each play. We’re obviously not doing that.

      If the Warriors (and to a lesser extent the Spurs) are playing a modern triangle over 90% of the time, and look the way they do, I don’t blame the offense. IT’S CARMELO AND ROSE. Props to KP for not blaming the offense but the chemistry.

      Either way, stop talking about it, it’s turning fans and other players off, there’s literally no positive to all this talk about it. More so, making Hornacek play it as a non-triangle man is not the right way of doing things, either get someone good who wants to run it (Kerr) or let the coach choose. But, yes, the triangle can be played well and by itself has absolutely nothing to do with our struggles.

    8. where we are right now is pretty good… i think we’re between 5 and 6 now depending on how the king’s season ends up which is great…

      kp’s ws48 is now below last year’s which is pretty concerning and probably the main reason why we’re so bad… if we have any hope of being good in the near future he’s going to have to be the main reason why….

    9. @5 thanks jkhar. The hand-wringers around here are so nauseatingly pitiful. Like anything less than 0-41 in the second half of the season is a catastrophe.

    10. the Pelicans and Mavs seem to be out of the competition, now my biggest fear is Minnesota…

      They play the Lakers THREE more times (and the Blazers twice and the Kings once). If we don’t majorly fuck things up, I think we’re good.

      That’s a really interesting article about Shaq’s view of the triangle. I believe him. And what he says about the second unit is what I have noticed a couple of times.

      Shaq is a complete and utter moron. If he says good things about the triangle that should be considered a point against it.

      The next set of guys seems very good, so we have a good chance to get a good player regardless of our record for the rest of the season. So,in a way, we’ve already tanked enough. Now we can just work on getting better for next year

      We’re just one game back of Minnesota and 1.5 back of New Orleans. The tank must roll on.

      If the Warriors (and to a lesser extent the Spurs) are playing a modern triangle over 90% of the time, and look the way they do, I don’t blame the offense. IT’S CARMELO AND ROSE. Props to KP for not blaming the offense but the chemistry.

      They aren’t. I’m not sure where this came from. Kerr and Pop have paid some lip service to running “triangle principles,” which I think refers to Tex Winter’s 7 principles of offense. These are just broad platitudes about sharing the ball, penetration, etc. Besides, Jackson seems to have no interest in running a “modern triangle” anyway.

    11. kp’s ws48 is now below last year’s which is pretty concerning and probably the main reason why we’re so bad

      I respectfully but completely disagree with this. Between Rose, Melo, Noah, drama, defensive schemes, I mean the list goes on and on…..

    12. They aren’t. I’m not sure where this came from. Kerr and Pop have paid some lip service to running “triangle principles,” which I think refers to Tex Winter’s 7 principles of offense. These are just broad platitudes about sharing the ball, penetration, etc. Besides, Jackson seems to have no interest in running a “modern triangle” anyway.

      They are playing the triangle, it’s just a modern version. I wasn’t implying that Phil is doing a great job, or anything, I just think the triangle itself is viable, and not the source of our struggles. And I also don’t think you need a certain type of player for the triangle. It’s most likely that we’re trying to force a coach with no training in it, and players who want no part of it (due to a combination of ignorance/stubbornness/people talking about it too much), due to the demands of someone who sits in an office all day.

    13. From my understanding SA and GSW run a motion offense (which the Triangle is a subset of) that contains some triangle sets they operate out of. It is not exclusively or largely triangle however.

      Am I wrong?

    14. What’s up guys? Haven’t posted in awhile and a few thoughts.

      -Rose has value but not as a starter. His defense is indifferent at best and he’s not a strong distributor at all. His scoring punch in a 6th man role would be a good way of minimizing those flaws and accentuate his ability to create shots and get buckets.

      -A lot of our defensive issues are effort and scheme related. Hornacek failing to hold players accountable for their fuck ups and not rewarding higher effort players with more minutes/starts let the problem fester and spread across the team. If I was a non Rose or Melo player this year and I saw their lack of giving fucks on defense without ever being held accountable in any way I’d probably stop giving a shit too.

      -I’ve defended Melo on here a lot and feel he’s gotten a hard ride from many Knicks fans, particularly on KB for most of his tenure. This year he deserves any and all criticism people want to throw at him.

      He wanted less Triangle? He got it. Wanted to play faster? Got it. Wanted vets to play with? Got that too.

      In spite of that his defensive effort has been awful. When we were getting enough offense to offset it early in the season that was cool, but over the 82 game marathon it’s been exposed. He needs to go and not soon enough. His value as a primary scorer and presence to alleviate the pressure from KP no longer outweighs his inability to curb his gunner instincts and failure to set an example as a leader from an effort and defense standpoint. Getting up every now and then to play George and Kawhi isn’t close to good enough for a guy who proclaimed that ranking him 15th in the league before the season was an insult.

      -Phil can go too but he won’t. If he stays it’s time to dispense with the balancing act and commit to whatever him and Hornacek concoct as a hybrid Triangle around KP. The bench clearly runs what he wants. Find more guys that do that and draft. I’m good with that. KP and Willy is a decent…

    15. Whether Shaq is or isn’t a moron isn’t relevant to what he said. He said he didn’t like the triangle at first, but then he decided to give it a try and found that it worked better than what he he’d been doing. That is not an analytical statement requiring smarts to conclude or state. He simply reported what happened to him. And, if you think he’s a moron, and you know his fundamental style of play wasn’t particularly friendly, it suggests that any player cAn learn it if they want to.

    16. I think it’s entirely possible that the Triangle might work but that our players (or at least some of them) are just not willing to “be learners”.

      What is a little strange is how against the Triangle many players are, when in fact many teams do Triangle-like stuff. Also, all the complaining about not enough PNRs is a little weird because Golden State – best offense in the entire league- runs the LEAST pick-and-rolls of any team in the league (or at least they have the fewest possessions charted as PNR roll man or ball handler). And not to pile on more, but Courtney Lee’s complaint about not practicing against the PNR on defense (because they’re running the triangle) is similarly weird, since GS also has either the best or 2nd best defense in the league, and they don’t run PNR either.

      I don’t know. It may just be that our players are not right for the triangle and that they haven’t bought in. Naturally we prob don’t want an offense that is made to create 2 point midrangers, but my guess is that there is a happy medium somewhere with 3PA and triangle concepts.

      It certainly is believable that the 2 highest usage guys on our team are resisting the triangle, and as such, it has no chance of working, somewhat vindicating Phil and his obsession with the Triangle. Of course, he IS the GM and DID bring in the entire roster, so Phil the GM/POBO is not vindicated even if the Triangle might be.

    17. Rose has value but not as a starter. His defense is indifferent at best and he’s not a strong distributor at all. His scoring punch in a 6th man role would be a good way of minimizing those flaws and accentuate his ability to create shots and get buckets.

      You’re really still on this train? His “scoring punch” comes with a .526 TS%, and is his best attribute as a player! He’s trash, full stop. The best way to minimize his flaws is to not have him on the team anymore.

    18. From my understanding SA and GSW run a motion offense (which the Triangle is a subset of) that contains some triangle sets they operate out of. It is not exclusively or largely triangle however.

      Am I wrong?

      We haven’t been running only Triangle either, even after we started running it more. Even since we allegedly started running more of it Hornacek has added non-Triangle wrinkles to the offense like running Lee and Holiday off of Floppy sets to free them up for jumpers or getting them going downhill into the paint. They still run pick and pop with KP and a lot of PNR with Willy. We don’t even see much of the Triangle action we did last year like the pindowns or cross screens for the elbow jumpers for KP and Melo. We rarely initiate sets with a strong side post entry either.

      The bigger issue is that if Rose and Melo are just going to default into the weak side Triangle action and set up pinch post isos for Melo then it doesn’t matter what system we run.

      Another thing to note is that much of the offense looks more similar to Adelman’s Corner Offense which shares many of the same spacing and passing principles as the Triangle. Also most of our rotation guards, wings and unicorns are have higher 3PAr than their career averages and many cases more than what they did last year. The exception is Rose, whose high usage weighs down our team wide 3PAr.

      Honestly the offense isn’t the issue with this team. It can be improved upon in it’s execution and with personnel for sure, but defense is why we suck. The constant Triangle talk is just a distraction from the garbage effort put forth from our “stars” on that end.

    19. You’re really still on this train? His “scoring punch” comes with a .526 TS%, and is his best attribute as a player! He’s trash, full stop. The best way to minimize his flaws is to not have him on the team anymore.

      I didn’t say I wanted him on the team. I’m saying that’s the role he’d have value. Jamal Crawford had a 52.7 TS% in his 4 full seasons with the Knicks mostly as a garbage starter. Then he left and performed much better as a 6th man off the bench.

      Changing a player’s role can make them more valuable. JR Smith being asked to be the 2nd option wasn’t so great. Asking him to spot up and eat off Lebron’s dishes has made him a much more valuable player.

    20. As a 6th man playing against opponents’ second units, Rose would be a pretty decent value at $8-10MM.

      in that setting, he would prob score more efficiently and prob not be trying to “defend” guards that are as good as starting guards.

      but yeah, i want no part of him on this team.

    21. The Triangle works when you have awesome players. When Jerry Krause and Jerry West are in control of personnel, it all works swimmingly. Those guys understood player valuation. Phil doesn’t.

      Phil built a roster around decline phase Melo, decline phase Noah and post-injury Rose. He sucks at player valuation. He doesn’t seem to be improving in this area either. He has had three offseasons to make moves, and his third offseason was not much better than his first.

      We’re just playing out the string with Phil. He is not good at the most important part of being a GM.

    22. Anyone who watches Golden State can see that they run triangle sets a lot of the time. Kerr’s system just integrate the Triangle with the San Antonio Spurs’ “motion weak” offense—which features nonstop movement, attacks and counters—all designed to get defenders on their heels in space. That allows for the ball will swing back to the weak side, where actions start afresh when a play stalls on the strong side.

    23. @5

      that’s obvious.

      I just wanted to point out, half-jokingly as the resident hand-wringer, that one win against a direct competitor might be the difference between getting Fox or Monk.

      and I mean, Rose could be the next Jamal Crawford… who’s also not a valuable player and has never been.

    24. Jackson hasn’t found a head coach to make it work. O’Neal said one potential reason is triangle pioneer Tex Winter is not around, as he was in Chicago and Los Angeles. Winter, who turned 95 last month, is in poor health.

      Does Jackson need to be the coach to win with the triangle?

      “I’m not going to say that and diss [Jeff] Hornacek,’’ O’Neal said. “But when we were playing, Phil never did the talking. It was Tex Winter. Tex always preached it. Kurt Rambis is very knowledgeable of the triangle.”

      I found that to be the most interesting, and in some respects surprising part of the Shaq article. Jackson comes off as almost a figurehead. More and more I am coming to think that he is the man for whom the quarter landed on edge.

    25. Before we get any further talking about the triangle, let’s just remind ourselves that the Knicks have been one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA for like 15 years, with the exception of a few years of Tyson Chandler-led decency. We could be the goddamn Houston Rockets and we still wouldn’t win a title because of our bottom 5 defense.

      We can debate ourselves blue in the face about the merits of the triangle, but what really matters is the defense.

      P.S. Triangle BS aside, it was pretty cool to hear Shaq and DFish actually talking about the actions of the offense on the Monday night broadcast of the Clippers game.

    26. if we were going to be anything close to a .500 team… the only possible person that could’ve came from was kp… wily/koq doing well cancels out whatever we lost from noah…. rose was gonna be rose.. i think i pegged his ws48 almost exactly… and melo is within range of expected outcomes…

      it’s gonna be much the same next year except we have a lotto pick and possibly spending some more cap room on hopefully someone that is a plus…. but the only real shot is if/when KP takes that leap.. and when he does we should be at least a .500 team… i was hoping it was this year but maybe we get it next…

    27. if we were going to be anything close to a .500 team… the only possible person that could’ve came from was kp…

      I agree.

      I thought the big question for the year was how much he was going to move forward. I was fairly optimistic his improvement would add an extra 5 wins and perhaps more. That he didn’t move forward (more efficient as a scorer but down in other areas) is why I’ve been venting my disappointment lately. Hopefully it will come next year with some more seasoning, strength, practice. and a better offense without Melo and Rose killing the ball movement.

    28. Some people here just don’t get it. Phil Jackson has forgotten more about winning and about basketball than all of us put together have ever known.

    29. KP has improved this season, but you’re all joshing if you thought this team was going to be run through him enough for it to save this season. For thing, he’s just physically developed to carry this team a full season and into the playoffs. For another, the personalities on this team would never allow the offense to be run through him until it was too late and evident the team would be broken up.

    30. As a 6th man playing against opponents’ second units, Rose would be a pretty decent value at $8-10MM.

      Rose not a decent value at $8-10MM, confirmed.

    31. Some people here just don’t get it. Phil Jackson has forgotten more about winning and about basketball than all of us put together have ever known.

      He sux as a GM doe

    32. improvement could have been as little as maintaining his rebrate/ftr while also showing improvement in his shooting…. that probably would’ve been enough for a decent sized improvement overall…

      now we have to hope that he’s not another channing frye…

    33. It’s weird, I’m just some shmuck on the internet, but somehow I knew it was a fucking horrible idea to give Joakim Noah 4/72 and also a fucking horrible idea to trade for Derrick Rose’s stank ass. Yet somehow Phil didn’t know this, despite his vast knowledge. It’s just kind of strange.

    34. now we have to hope that he’s not another channing frye…

      Jesus. Channing Frye was a rookie at an older age than KP is now. You guys really have to calm down with the disappointment.

    35. Yet after this shitshow of a season, the same posters are talking about how Derrick Rose would be valuable at $10M when he, in actuality, is a bottom-rung player who’d probably be a bench player in Euroleague at this point.

    36. Phil, who was actually a member of the last 2 Knick teams that won us a championship, has had only a total of ONE number one draft pick of his own since he took over. He’s done all that he could given what he started with. Unlike previous GMs, he has not sacrificed the future as others have done.

    37. @Reub

      Some people here just don’t get it. Phil Jackson has forgotten more about winning and about basketball than all of us put together have ever known.

      Phil, who was actually a member of the last 2 Knick teams that won us a championship, has had only a total of ONE number one draft pick of his own since he took over. He’s done all that he could given what he started with. Unlike previous GMs, he has not sacrificed the future as others have done.

      This line of reasoning is exactly the type of sickness that infests many owners today. There is no correlation between a) being a good basketball player and b) good player evaluation, deal negotiation, and budget management. These later 3 items constitute the skill set to be a successful GM. Being a successful coach requires some player evaluation in selecting who to allocate minutes to but that usually isn’t that hard to figure out. Jax’s track record offered no indication that he would be a good GM and still doesn’t. He made two good picks in KP and Willy and whiffed on a variety of other items. I will give him credit for those two picks and for not trading any draft picks…that is it.

    38. @GoldClub

      Phil’s had ONE first round draft pick left to him up until this point. Many of you are asking for the impossible. I like our future going forward, as you know.

    39. Who gives a flying shit if Phil Jackson was a role player on a championship team 45 fucking years ago? That doesn’t mean shit. Dean Meminger was on that team, let’s make Meminger the GM, and let’s make Harthorne Wingo the coach while we’re at it.

    40. Having only one first round pick does not excuse Mega-Maxing Melo, 4/72 for Joakim Noah’s busted old ass and trading for Derrick fucking Rose. Come on now.

      Phil doesn’t know whether players are good or bad. The end.

    41. Some of you are probably too young and immature to respect the last great, championship Knick teams. I am not.

    42. I love the ’86 Mets. That doesn’t mean I want Doc Gooden to replace Sandy Alderson.

    43. Hey all, long time since i posted, but i read every day. At one point i started skipping all of Reub’s posts but now he seems legit and i’m not sure if i should anymore. Grade-A trolling.

      I didn’t share this before the season started, but I predicted 42-40 assuming the team could stay healthy. Based on Noah’s effectiveness when healthy (not very), his health was not a factor. Outside of him…health was great for the players we were concerned about. Man, i feel stupid. Defense was sooooo bad. Even mediocre defense would have gotten us to .500. Oh well, we have a pick in a deep draft so i actually prefer things turned out this way vs getting the 8th seed which in hindsight would have been the ceiling for this team anyway.

      Anyhoo…onto the tank…i’m all in. I feel like Dallas, Minny and NO will stay above us so i think we’re in for a 4-6 seed. The 4-5 slot would be amazing given the 19 – 25% chance at a top-2. What would totally suck is ending the season with the same record as one or more of our tank competition (Philly, Sac and Orlando). Did you guys realize we own the tiebreakers on all of them, except Philly (for the moment…got to lose that last game). Ugh, Knicks!!!

    44. @51 We’re going to get a fine young player whether we get the 4th pick or the 7th pick so keep hope alive.

    45. howdy eternal and lavor…really good to see ya’ll kicking in…for the many whom normally stop by a few times a week to check in here – i’m sure it’s very refreshing to get a different perspective. or – at the very least a little different choice of words beside a different name…

      like everyone else – i’m sure we all have our favorites – as well as those whom as soon as we see their names we immediately think – NEXT!!!

      i know at times i must annoy the hell out of the people i work with, and the poor folks tormented with my presence in real life – so glad i can share that now with many others…

      also really appreciate folks including some more of the outlying nba stuff – like the appreciation of a good p&j sandwich (strawberry preserves, creamy skippy on toasted buttermilk bread with a bowl of tomato soup); and, the fact that nba players are getting more rest cuz it’s easier for them to hook up on the road these days…

    46. @51 We’re going to get a fine young player whether we get the 4th pick or the 7th pick so keep hope alive.

      sometimes it’s just better to wallow in a pool of morosity…it tends to give you a better appreciation of life when things eventually (not holding my breath) do get better…

      it’s warming and comforting – kinda like a nice toasted p&j followed by some random tinder hookup…ah, the joy, the joy…

    47. @54 geo, Have you noticed that p&j happen to be Phil Jackson’s initials? Just wow!

    48. Having only one first round pick does not excuse Mega-Maxing Melo, 4/72 for Joakim Noah’s busted old ass and trading for Derrick fucking Rose. Come on now.

      Phil doesn’t know whether players are good or bad. The end.

      Unless he truly is the Zen master of stealth tanking. We are almost guaranteed to suck for the next 3 years and have draft picks. Now THAT’S how you build a team!

    49. Z-man, I respectfully feel like we’re further along than that.

    50. Phil’s had ONE first round draft pick left to him up until this point.

      Two. You may include Grant since he was traded on the draft night.

    51. @52 yep, seems like there is enough talent in the top 7. I think i’m also hoping for top-2 so we can draft for best available and need (PG) simultaneously.

    52. MSA, respectfully, Phil didn’t come in with that pick but traded for it. I was talking about the hand that he was dealt when he took over the team. Be well.

    53. Phil Jackson has been terrible. There’s no discussion to be had for him. He had one good night at the 2015 NBA draft and then did everything he could to undermine the franchise player in KP after he drafted him.

    54. @56 i tend to agree. Next year won’t be pretty. While i was always concerned with Phil’s acumen at team-building as a GM since we sucked every time he thought we’d be good, his accidental tanking and pick retention have been stellar. We could have top 5 picks in three out of four years! As dark as the last 20 years have been, the future is bright! My only concern is the environment in which that youthful core is to grow.

    55. However, if he could do the 3 team trade I’ll be screaming for once a day where we get Rubio and the Wolves’ pick this year sending Melo to Cleveland and Love back to Minnesota, and then draft Isaac and Ntilikina then I’d be very impressed. Get rid of Melo and bring Rubio home and the Knicks are fixed. Imagine having Rubio, Ntilikina, Isaac, KP, and Hernangomez along with $25-35M in cap space this summer? Wouldn’t that be fun?

    56. Can someone (Accidentank) explain to me why Isaac is such a sure-fire fit for us? As far as I can tell, he’s more of a 4 than a 3, and an Isaac-KP frontcourt will get absolutely creamed by anyone with size. He’s a good prospect because of his defense, shooting and limited off-the-bounce game, but even soI struggle to put him ahead of Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum, Fox, and Smith Jr.

    57. MSA, respectfully, Phil didn’t come in with that pick but traded for it. I was talking about the hand that he was dealt when he took over the team. Be well.

      Ok, so stop giving credit for the Willy pick.

      He was picked by the Sixers and then Phil traded for him.

    58. @64 I agree. Isaac looks like he has physical tools but I haven’t seen that much actual production from him. He seems to be behind the play most of the time and is the team’s fifth best option. He looked like Maurice NDour to me in his last game.

    59. He should get credit for the Willy pick — I’m sure he told the Sixers to pick him as part of the trade.

    60. @67 So am I. Again, Phil inherited one first round pick to utilize in his career as team President here and chose Porzingis, who will be great. He deserves some more slack and support.

    61. okay reub, just a thought…

      not to get too personal or deep – but, my impression at times is the “negativity” or criticism which abounds here on the site seems to somewhat trigger you…sorta like the term “stathead” triggered the heck out of a whole bunch of folks whom tend to look at life from a little more of an analytic perspective…

      i’m probably way off – but, it kinda seems like maybe you view those sentiments as “giving up” or “quitting”…in no way do you ever come across as someone whom is weak or prone to quitting…

      personally, aside from the usual doom and gloom which can be found on any forum site – i tend to view the negativity and criticism which is espoused here – as very justified…

      we’ve sucked for over a decade in a half (brief respite for a season or two)…the individual whom you have a great deal of faith in – has guided us to some of the worst basketball (sans “true” scandals) some of us have ever seen since we’ve started following the knicks…

      we truly sucked this season with a poorly constructed basketball team…very good chance we are gonna suck again next year…

      some of us truly need to express those feelings of frustration, betrayal, anger, rage, plus more betrayal, anger and rage…

      it doesn’t mean we’re quitters or just ready to roll on our backs and give up…

      ugh, i need a warm p&j and and a little tinder love…

    62. By all means have a P(hil) & J(ackson) sandwich and you’ll feel better, geo.

    63. If the top 7 picks in the draft go Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Smith Jr, Fox, Tatum, and Isaac, only Lonzo Ball would have a higher WS/40 than Isaac. Jonathan Isaac has the offensive skill-set of a guard (he was 6’2″ a couple years ago. Two other guys who had insane growth spurts? Oh, just Tim Duncan and Anthony Davis) and rebounds and blocks shots like a power forward. His natural fit is at the 3 when he gets to the NBA and he has the athletic ability to guard 3s and 4s once he bulks up. FSU was an afterthought last year with both Dwayne Bacon and XRM leading the charge. They get Jonathan Isaac, the highest ranked prospect in FSU history, and the team goes 26-9 (20-14 the year before). Isaac is a difference maker on both ends. Here are some of the highlights that made me fall in love with him. He is the prospect with the highest ceiling in the draft.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnq7SuvyCaA

    64. yeah I think there’s a clear top 5 prospects in this draft:

      Top tier: Ball, Fultz
      Tier 2 (all quite close): Jackson, Fox, Isaac

    65. @71 Wow, Isaac never missed in that highlight tape! No but seriously, I did see him do a lot of impressive things in that tape, things that I didn’t see him do in his last game that I watched. His dribbling ability for a big man looks great and he appears to have good range as well. He looks like a great kid too so I’ll retract my stated opinion of him and hope that the game that I saw was just an outlier.

    66. Josh Jackson will be a bust with a capital B. I hope he goes to the Celtics. He and Lonzo both have shaky forms on their jumper, but at least Lonzo can shoot his in traffic. Josh Jackson holds the ball so far away from his body he’ll never be a plus shooter in this league. He’s more Evan Turner than Kawhi Leonard.

    67. @74 Shooting form is what scares me away from Fox too. It reminds me of Brandon Jennings. Do you disagree?

    68. Reub doesn’t like Isaac because his mortal enemies, AKA The People Who Actually Know What The Fuck They Are Talking About, like Isaac.

      That is all there is to it. Pure contrarianism.

    69. Interesting. Isaac’s shot looks really pure and his ball handling looks way better than I anticipated.

    70. Jonathan Isaac was the Kristaps Porzingis of FSU. Two clearly inferior players froze him out of the offense and he tended to skate on by and disappear from games, but when he’s engaged in an offense he’s an absolute game changer.

      Did you see the play where he showed that lightning first step and then dribbled behind his back to shield the ball from 3 defenders? That’s excellence. Josh Jackson doesn’t have that in his game, and Josh Jackson is 3 inches shorter.

    71. @JK Please read my last post about Isaac that preceeded yours. I said that I saw some encouraging things in his highlight film that I hadn’t seen in his last game that I watched. I’m willing to be optimistic about him based on what I saw there. Besides, he seems like a really good kid and deserves the benefit of the doubt. Peace.

    72. De’Aaron Fox’s shooting form is more Iman Shumpert than Brandon Jennings. Jennings doesn’t shoot the same jumper twice. Fox was likely always more athletic than everybody he’s ever played with so he never really needed a jumper. He’s a hard working kid and he’s smart, so I think he’ll develop into a productive pro. It’s all on him at this point.

    73. @78 Yes I saw that play and that’s one of the reasons that I’ve changed my opinion on Isaac. He has a lot of talent and the fact that it might have been hidden by his evil teammates might make him more obtainable for us.

    74. @75

      Fox’s shooting stroke is actually pretty nice. It just doesn’t go in. But between that and his 75% free throw shooting it’s pretty reasonable to project improvement imo.

    75. Isaac will play the 3 in the NBA as a young player, and will play the 4 by the time he’s in his late 20’s. He’s the clear #3 in this draft to me, because he brings current production and future projection. He’s a multi-dimensional player who can rebound, play position defense, block shots and score. He doesn’t need the ball in his hands a lot to make a positive impact. His body type and fluid athleticism remind me a bit of a young Lamar Odom.

      The guys to avoid in this draft are Dennis Smith, Jason Tatum and Malik Monk. Those are all players who have some offensive ability, but who are Knicksy in their lack of dimensions beyond scoring.

    76. @78, the play that really impressed me was when he drove to the rim from halfcourt, split the double at the elbow and then finished at the hoop. Impressive handle and body control for a guy that size.

      RE: Tatum, FWIW he was a pretty good defender at Duke.

    77. Dennis Smith Jr. gets steals and is a good rebounder for a point guard. 30 year old Dennis Smith sounds Knicksy, but not first two contract Dennis Smith Jr.

    78. Out of the Tatum/Smith/Monk group, Tatum is probably the best prospect of the three. I can’t say I saw enough Duke basketball this year to truly evaluate his defense, but you’re right, he does have the reputation of at least an adequate defender.

    79. Tatum is a slow guy. Unless he learns the Paul Pierce/Joe Johnson art of slow roasting a defender, he’s toast as a pro.

    80. The two guys out of Duke I really want are Harry Giles and Luke Kennard. I still see Kevin Garnett when I watch Harry Giles. If we could get our hands on that kid I would be elated.

    81. Isaac will play the 3 in the NBA as a young player, and will play the 4 by the time he’s in his late 20’s. He’s the clear #3 in this draft to me, because he brings current production and future projection. He’s a multi-dimensional player who can rebound, play position defense, block shots and score. He doesn’t need the ball in his hands a lot to make a positive impact. His body type and fluid athleticism remind me a bit of a young Lamar Odom.

      The guys to avoid in this draft are Dennis Smith, Jason Tatum and Malik Monk. Those are all players who have some offensive ability, but who are Knicksy in their lack of dimensions beyond scoring.

      I like Isaac a lot, too, but Josh Jackson will almost certainly be a good NBA player, so I get why he would go #3.

    82. I think Isaac is a better prospect plus he doesn’t seem like an asshole off the court like Jackson is.

    83. Oh yeah, don’t get me wrong, if I were picking, I’d go Isaac over Jackson, but that would be because I have a lot of faith in Isaac, and not a knock on Jackson. Really, though, if I had the #3 pick, I’d trade down, since Jackson will go #3 (if not #2), so let some other team trade for him.

      Also, I’d go Fox over Isaac. I really, really like Fox.

    84. Can we all agree that somehow getting one of the top 2 picks makes this one of our best seasons in 17 years? At this point I don’t care if its blind luck, destiny, an act of God, an act of the NBA overlords… we are due for a franchise changing moment.

    85. If Fox ever learns how to shoot there’s a real possibility he could have a career equal to or better than Fultz or Ball

      He’s got a lot of upside and much of it revolves around whether he learns how to shoot

    86. @88 I like Giles and would like to think that his value is low. How high do you see him going in the draft?

    87. Tankathon has us taking Monk and Draftexpress has us taking Markkanen. Where did they ever get the idea that we don’t care much for defense?

    88. I like Fox a lot too, and it’s not out of the question that he develops a shot. He’s only taken 65 three this year. While he’s shooting like 25% or something, that’s an incredibly small sample size and he is a bit better from the line (73%).

      Gotta agree with Silky’s tier rankings.

    89. @95, dude, you do realize that those sites just mock according to their big boards, right? If we move up to 6th worst records by tomorrow they’ll have us taking whoever they have at 6.

    90. Anyhoo…onto the tank…i’m all in. I feel like Dallas, Minny and NO will stay above us so i think we’re in for a 4-6 seed. The 4-5 slot would be amazing given the 19 – 25% chance at a top-2. What would totally suck is ending the season with the same record as one or more of our tank competition (Philly, Sac and Orlando). Did you guys realize we own the tiebreakers on all of them, except Philly (for the moment…got to lose that last game). Ugh, Knicks!!!

      Don’t worry, tie-breaking for the lottery is done differently. It’s not tie-breaker like playoff seeding, the tied teams just share ping pong balls (so if two teams were tied for the #6 seed, then they would take the ping pong balls for the #6 seed, add them to the ping pong balls for #7 and then split it down the middle) and then have a coin toss to determine who is officially #6 and who is #7 (the #6 seed would also get the extra ping pong ball in case there is an uneven number of ping pong balls after dividing by two). So the Knicks still have a chance. They’ll lose the coin tosses, of course, but there is a chance!

    91. In regard to Fox’s shot…

      Someone from this site posted a good ringer article about it last week. Though on the surface it seemed damning (Lawson, Rondo, MCW, Wall, Elfrid Payton all shot better than him from 3 in college), an expert shot analyst that works with NBA players said the sample of 3s he’s taken is way too tiny to make a decent assessment. He points out that in HS he hit 10 threes in a single game.

      What’s much more telling (according to this expert) is his solid FT% and the fact that he has “really good mechanics for the most part”. This expert thinks it’s a confidence issue coupled with a tiny sample size.

      Given this info (which makes it sound like Fox’s shot is definitely salvageable), I would strongly consider him with the 3rd pick. And given the potential for other teams to undervalue him, I think we actually have a shot at him unlike Ball & Fultz which would take a ping pong miracle.

      And at the very worst, we end up with a solid perimeter defender to take some pressure off of KP so he doesn’t lead the league in contests next year for the second season in a row!

    92. Fox is definitely a risk with the chance that he just never becomes a good outside shooter, but he’s so talented defensively, has such strong court vision and has plus plus athleticism that I’d take him over all of the forwards. Well, I’d trade down so that I could draft him later and get something else so that someone else takes Jackson, but you know what I mean. Plus, I have faith that he’ll fit in fine as a third-year player with the offense system that they will run as soon as Jackson leaves.

    93. Plus, I have faith that he’ll fit in fine as a third-year player with the offense system that they will run as soon as Jackson leaves.

      The real question, unfortunately, is does he fit in well enough with the system Jackson wants to run (that shall not be named) for us to draft him? Praying the answer is yes.

    94. Ntilikina probably fits it better, and honestly, I can live with that pick. I think Ntilikina is nearly as good as Fox, pick-wise.

    95. Very happy to see Lavor Postell return! Keep posting.

      And I do agree that Rose could be a solid off the bench guy for some team (but NOT the Knicks!) that has some good defenders but needs some scoring. His health will ALWAYS be a concern with him, though, and I doubt that he sees himself as anything less than a superstar starter.

    96. I think Fox shot something like 28% from 3 in college so he’s always been a pretty bad shooter. I would still grab him with a 5th, 6th, or 7th pick if he’s available, though.

    97. @102
      As of right now, if the Knicks end up getting Fultz, Ball, Fox, or Ntilikina with the first rounder, I will be thrilled. I’ll be okay with Issac, too, but concerned unless a good young PG is gotten via trade or FA.

      Then, somehow dump Rose, Melo, and Lee. Would Minny consider Lee for Rubio?

      The Knicks aren’t going to be serious playoff contenders for some time, but at least let’s hope for a young, fun team to root for.

    98. One thing I feel somewhat good about is that there doesn’t really seem to be any guy out there that Jackson can even blow the max on, since Holiday is almost assuredly staying in New Orleans, George Hill is likely staying in Utah (there’s a rumor out there that the Nets are going to make sure that the Jazz and Wizards will have to max out Hill and Otto Porter if they want to keep them) and not even Phil Jackson would max out Jeff Teague. So it looks like he might be saved from himself this offseason.

    99. If Jackson traded for Rose then I don’t think he’d pass on Fox just because he isn’t an ideal triangle PG.

    100. One thing I feel somewhat good about is that there doesn’t really seem to be any guy out there that Jackson can even blow the max on, since Holiday is almost assuredly staying in New Orleans, George Hill is likely staying in Utah (there’s a rumor out there that the Nets are going to make sure that the Jazz and Wizards will have to max out Hill and Otto Porter if they want to keep them) and not even Phil Jackson would max out Jeff Teague. So it looks like he might be saved from himself this offseason.

      Agreed, its gonna be interesting to see how he approaches this offseason when he doesn’t get the guys he wants. We might luck ourselves into a rebuild if we hit on the picks this year and next.

    101. Isaac is a perfect get for us at the #6 spot. He’s by far the best non-guard prospect in the draft and probably the third best talent in this class. If we’re smart and draft BPA instead of for need we can make out like a top 3 team. I really like Frank Ntilikina though. He’s really starting to pick it up in Strasbourg now with more playing time. Tough decisions. Let’s just tank for Ball and make the smart, easy choice at #1.

    102. I don’t put much stock in what an anonymous shooting coach says about Fox. There’s never been a shooting coach who didn’t think they could straighten out a player’s form. His piss poor shooting is so bad, I’d more stock in that.

    103. I want Phil to be fired so the media stops talking about the fucking triangle and notices the problem is we don’t have any good players.

    104. “Jeff Hornacek: Was a mistake to blend triangle with up-tempo style… Coach Jeff Hornacek expects the Knicks to be running the triangle offense exclusively from the beginning of training camp next season…”

      http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18979960/new-york-knicks-coach-jeff-hornacek-reiterates-commitment-triangle-next-season

      @dred

      It’s not the media’s fault. Every time the team has gone to shit, Phil insinuates (this time through Hornacek but usually through Rosen) it’s because the team doesn’t run the triangle well enough. It’s a neat way of eschewing blame while making himself seem smarter.

    105. There’s never been a shooting coach who didn’t think they could straighten out a player’s form.

      I know my boss loves it when I tell him that I can’t convince a company to use our product.

      “Hey THCJ, how’d your call go with Company X?”

      “I looked at their business, and I just don’t think I can sell our product to them.”

      “Oh, okay. Great! Good job, man. Here’s some salary.”

    106. @116

      Exactly. A shooting coach will look at any shooting form and see a future job.

    107. IF we get any of Isaac Frank or Fox I’ll consider the draft a success

      Just please, for the love of god, no Malik Monk or Jayson Tatum

    108. It looks like drafting Frank might be a foregone conclusion if Hornacek is to be taken at face value because he’s pretty much the prototypical triangle guard. If that means we avoid drafting Monk or Tatum then that’s good enough for me I suppose.

      But it’s clear that the triangle just simply cannot work without Melo gone, and moving him for anything should be priority number 1 this offseason if Phil is truly committed to build a team from the ground up with the triangle (or without it.)

      Also planning all your team decisions around who fits in your highly specific offense is batshit. It’s even worse when the guy who created it (Tex) isn’t around to teach it.

    109. I know it’s an anonymous shooting coach, but he’s not saying Fox’s form is bad and can be straightened out. He’s saying his mechanics look pretty good right now. And I tend to agree. Simply watch his form. I watched Kawhi in person in college and his shot mechanics were definitely not as good as Fox’s. That being said, the Spurs developing a player’s shot vs. the knicks? Never mind. We don’t do projects. Maybe Frank is a safer bet. I just want some perimeter D after having to watch Rose and Jennings most of the year!

    110. That being said, the Spurs developing a player’s shot vs. the knicks?

      Maybe, or the Spurs know the difference between a player with potential or a “finished good” player, or the Spurs knew that Kawhi would be good but didn’t foresee him becoming a top-3 player, or Gregg Popovich has a blood pact with Satan himself and cannot lose, ever, for any reason whatsoever. Too many variables to know.

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