Knicks Morning News (2014.12.10)

  • [New York Post] Why Jason Smith’s return to New Orleans was so emotional (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 04:48:04 -0500)

    Knicks power forward Jason Smith got together with Ryan Anderson, his former New Orleans teammate. It was an emotional reunion and an emotional return here for Smith. One month ago,…

  • [New York Newsday] Another city, another loss for Knicks (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 00:17:20 EST)

    The Knicks couldn't shake their "loser's mentality" Tuesday night, and now they're tied for the most losses in the league.

  • [New York Newsday] Carmelo Anthony might sit out to rest troublesome left knee (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 00:22:00 EST)

    Carmelo Anthony was getting his left knee worked on and re-taped just moments before the opening tip and received plenty of treatment on it after the game.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks lose ninth straight, fall to Pelicans in New Orleans (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 07:34:45 GMT)

    The “loser’s mentality” wasn’t about to be eradicated in one day. Now the Knicks are essentially the biggest losers in the NBA.

  • [New York Daily News] Carmelo, Fisher spin Phil Jackson’s ‘loser’s mentality’ dig (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 05:57:05 GMT)

    Phil Jackson harshly branded the Knicks on Monday as having a “loser’s mentality,” a mindset they know can be reversed in only one way.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks’ Carmelo Anthony having trouble with left knee injury (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 05:35:53 GMT)

    Carmelo Anthony’s season-long problems with his balky left knee also have not gone away.

  • [New York Daily News] Dennis Rodman rips Knicks: I learned (triangle) in 15 mins. (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 02:49:41 GMT)

    The Knicks are struggling as they learn Phil Jackson’s triangle offense and Dennis Rodman doesn’t get it.

  • [New York Times] More NBA Stars Join Protest Over Police Violence, Hundreds March in California (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 08:20:27 GMT)

    More NBA players joined ongoing nationwide protests against police violence on Tuesday night, as dozens of demonstrators again briefly blocked a California freeway.

  • [New York Times] Kobe Leads Lakers’ Rally Past Sacramento, 98-95 (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 07:17:30 GMT)

    Even when his legs are shot and his whole body is exhausted, Kobe Bryant can figure out ways to will the Los Angeles Lakers to victories.

  • [New York Times] Louisville and Villanova Pull Away and Stay Unbeaten (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 05:43:29 GMT)

    The No. 7 Wildcats ended the opening game of the Jimmy V Classic at the Garden on a 23-9 run against Illinois, before the No. 4 Cardinals wore down Indiana in the second half of the nightcap.

  • [New York Times] Durant Leads Thunder Past Bucks, 114-101 (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 05:17:32 GMT)

    Kevin Durant is taking nothing for granted these days.

  • [New York Times] Favors Scores 21, Jazz Top Spurs, End Skid at 9 (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 05:14:32 GMT)

    Derrick Favors scored 21 points, Gordon Hayward added 20 and the Utah Jazz snapped a nine-game losing streak with a 100-96 victory over the San Antonio Spurs on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Bosh Rallies Heat to 103-97 Victory Over Suns (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 04:56:32 GMT)

    Chris Bosh scored 10 of his 34 points in the fourth quarter, including seven straight down the stretch, and the Miami Heat beat the Phoenix Suns 103-97 on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] James Rallies Cavs Past Raptors for 8th in a Row (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 04:23:34 GMT)

    LeBron James acknowledged that it didn’t look good for the Cavaliers on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: LeBron James Scores 35 Points as Cavaliers Win Eighth in a Row (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 04:01:22 GMT)

    Cleveland overcame a 10-point deficit in the fourth quarter to defeat the visiting Toronto Raptors.

  • [New York Times] Pelicans 104, Knicks 93: Loser’s Mentality? Knicks Puzzle Out Phil Jackson’s Remark (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 03:53:31 GMT)

    Before their loss Tuesday — their ninth straight — the Knicks faced questions about what they perceived Jackson meant when he said the team was developing a loser’s mentality.

  • [New York Times] Texans’ Clowney Has Microfracture Knee Surgery (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 03:35:34 GMT)

    Houston’s Jadeveon Clowney, the top overall pick in this year’s draft, had microfracture surgery on his right knee.

  • [New York Times] Blazers Win Fifth Straight, Pistons’ Skid Hits 13 (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 03:17:58 GMT)

    LaMarcus Aldridge had 23 points and 11 rebounds, Wesley Matthews scored 19 points, and the Portland Trail Blazers picked up their fifth straight victory with a 98-86 win over the Detroit Pistons on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] ‘I Can’t Breathe’ T-Shirts in the N.B.A.: How Jay-Z and Others Made Them Happen (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 02:46:37 GMT)

    An elaborate plan led to LeBron James wearing an “I Can’t Breathe” T-shirt when the Cavaliers faced the Nets in Brooklyn on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] National Basketball Association Roundup (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 00:20:27 GMT)

    If the Los Angeles Lakers are going to lose this season, Magic Johnson thinks they might as well lose them all. He said Tuesday that the Lakers would be better off having the NBA’s worst record in order to improve their chances for a high draft pick in 2015.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Melo: 'I have to do more' (Wed, 10 Dec 2014 00:20:37 EDT)

    Carmelo Anthony doesn’t necessarily agree with the idea that the New York Knicks have a “loser’s mentality.”But he knows he has to do more to help the team rebound from its historically bad start.“I have to. That’s just my mentality,” Anthony told reporters on Tuesday. “We’re losing. Me being a big part of this team and this organization, I’ll always put that onus on myself and put that on my shoulders to feel like I have to do more.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    174 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2014.12.10)”

    1. It’s clear to me that the knicks are tanking. They refuse to go small and play a free flowing offense focused on shooting threes like they did a few years ago. Far too many players pass up open 3s on offense. The defense is what it is. But offensively they are stymying themselves by overthinking and passing on open 3s. If calderon is not going to be shooting why is he out there? And the fact that jason smith is lapping thjr and all other bench players besides JR in mins tells you all you need to know. Glad to see amare playing well in the post. But it would look even better with a free flowing offense.

      It’s clear to me now that the knicks don’t wanna win because even a layman can see that this particular roster is built for free flowing three chucking and occasional dumping down to amare and Melo. Instead they play for jason smith and Quincy acy long 2s

    2. Isn’t the triangle sort of a specific system that isn’t built around threes? It seem to me they have combined the worst of both worlds. The standing around a lot while players jab stepped or were begging for someone to come retrieve the ball from them coupled with the absence of things like the corner three.
      On a related note: do the Knicks in general seem to have less player movement than any team you watch? I can’t remember the last time a Knick scored on a back door play. Cuts to the basket seem rare as well.

    3. er, Calderon is actually shooting 3s/36 at close to a career high. They are not tanking. The “triangle” or whatever you want to call it is a very bad idea, but this team would suck anyway.

      But let’s use this Carmelo-TH2 news to talk about more productive things. Which Knick would win an ultimate-fighter style round robin tournament? Someone get the brackets going. We have now hit Phase 2 of Knicksplosion. Phase 3 begins when Phil Jackson is spotted at a Hookah bar in LA with Isiah and Jeremy Lin.

    4. Over the last 10 games or so, the Knicks have taken about 24 3s a game, which would put them in the top 10 in the league in terms of 3 point attempts.
      Re: Shump — he is one of the most frustrating players I’ve ever seen. He shows you just enough to make you think that he can be really good — like those 2 games in Texas last year and the first 10 or so this year — but then he goes through stretches in which he is virtually useless on the court — like the last 10 games or so. And I know that he is supposed to be a great defender but how many times is he going to leave his guy wide open, get lost trying to figure out whether to go under or over a screen, lose track of where he’s supposed to be on the court, etc., etc., before people start to realize that, while he may be a pretty good on the ball defender, he is lost when he’s not covering the ball handler? Woodson is no longer the coach, he’s not the subject of constant trade rumors, he’s a couple years removed from his last injury — he’s kind of running out of excuses. I really want him to be good, but I’m starting to think that he is never going to be more than a vet minimum type player.

    5. Unless this benched cutter is Scottie Pippen, it just ain’t gonna matter. TH2, who has a better chance of cutting Melo in the locker room than cutting through the isosceles on any given possession, is playing 17 per. You think 10 more minutes of TH2 would be a difference maker for El Knickerachi?? If they were tanking they’d be giving *more* minutes to their horrible-defense sophomore who is one of the only players on the team with some possibility of improvement. Assuming they are tanking is just giving in to your prior that they are a decent team, and it means ignoring all the very strange things our rookie coach is doing in the effort to win games.

    6. No they were never decent. But I don’t think anyone thought 4-19. I’m more talking about the style of offense. I think they need to shoot at least 30 3s a game and not pass up open 3s

    7. I understand the need for rationalization, but they are definitely not tanking. If you were tanking (and admitting you were “secretly tanking”, because as you can see Philadelphia – which is openly tanking – is currently facing the wrath of the Basketball Gods, having won a grand total of 1 game less than our beloved Sockers) you would play the second unit of Larkin-THJ-Early-Wear-Aldrich as soon as the game goes away by double digits, citing the need to rest everyone for the next game. Instead, the only argument we have for “secret tanking” theories are all the minutes played by Jason Smith. They are definitely not tanking.

      Here’s your recipe for Secret Usefulness of Covert Knicks-tanking (or, SUCK):

      – play Melo less than 30 MPG, and as soon as possibile (read: as soon as a minor injury strikes him) declare him out for the season for nagging injuries.
      – play Pablo and Calderon as less as possibile, as not to wear them down (since they’re quite old, you know)
      – give major burn to the youngsters. I’m talking about 20-25MPG or more for each of Larkin, Early, Wear, Aldrich, and 30MPG for Shump and THJ.
      – unleash JR only on good nights, and yank him as soon as it is obvious that tonight is not his night. You need to increase his trade value.
      – distribute early minutes to Larkin-THJ-Bargs (when he’ll be ready)-J.Smith-Amar’e quintets, as to make your opponents go on scoring sprees which will justify the scarce use of intelligent tactics late in the game (since you’ll be down 20).
      – distribute any remaining minutes to Acy at small forward.

      The truth is we’re not tanking, and Fisher is having a really bad time at figuring things out, going with his “veteran mentality” that’s serving Kobe so well (old style basketball is the best! chuck two-pointers! Melo should always play but never play as PF!).

      There you have it.

    8. @8 To look like they are not tanking.

      Why would you sacrifice precious, precious minutes of Melo’s prime to look like you’re not tanking? It would be like spending every evening with your spouse to look like you’re not cheating on her… thereby negating any chance to cheat because you’re always with her.

    9. hey i could be dead wrong, Fisher and Jackson may think that this is the best way to win. But in my novice opinion this is what i would do if i was doing everything i could to win.

      Start a lineup of :
      Calderon
      Shump
      JR
      Melo
      Stat/Dally-

      off the Bench would be Timmy spelling 2 and 3
      Larkin and prig
      and Acy , Cole , Dally playing spot mins defensively.

      Jason smith rare spot mins.

      And just run pnr with jr and stat. Post melo and find open 3s. Its really not that difficult. in All honesty the defense has been somewhat decent in the last few weeks, but thats never going to be a strong point. I just think that Phil is using the triangle as an excuse to play weird lineups and shitty offense.

    10. That makes no sense, you may injure the guy you just paid a megamax amount.
      What about the possibility that this roster sucks, and Fisher can’t figure out a way to make it work?

      And that Fisher kinda sucks right now?

    11. Phil Jackson is about all-triangle-all-the-time. To him, it works if your players fit well and are intelligent enough to use it.

      No, he will not run the PNR.

      Honestly, with the right players, how effective do you guys think the triangle could potentially be these days? I don’t understand enough of it to tell, and the PNR has been the dominant system since SSOL days.

    12. Well yes, er, that’s almost 85% of what I would do. The problem is that what you’re saying is common sense, and I don’t see how going against common sense while playing so much your supposed franchise cornerstone could make sense! They should have left Melo in the injured list and run away with a tanking season.

    13. Honestly, with the right players, how effective do you guys think the triangle could potentially be these days?

      I think very much (but only if you’d put some more emphasis on corner threes). Imagine the Thunder (slotting Westbrook at the 2 and inserting a Chalmers-like point guard) running it.

    14. We don’t need to wait for Melo to pick up a minor injury. There’s something wrong with his knee. He should be shut down immediately. Of course, Melo hasn’t been particularly good this year, so this won’t really hurt that much (and honestly, how much worse can we get) short term, and if it helps Melo stay more productive in the long term it would be a big benefit.

    15. Or maybe Fisher is just that bad? I just dont see how playing Jason Smith consistent mins and Playing Timmy rarely is a winning recipe. Shump is probably going to be an offensive negative and the point guards do not shoot much. At least when Tim is in chucking they will be threes or attacking the rim.

    16. @17 yea i agree dude has a bad wheel. I was waiting all second half for him to start chucking but it never happened. He was kinda just being a decoy and letting stat go to work. And we all know thats not the healthy melo mindset. At this point shut it down for a month. Fuck it right. Just let fish work on coaching techniques lol.

    17. I think that Fisher is that bad (as of now). The Triangle seems to bring consistently with it some hybris, in the form of “the best team ever played this system, so it must be the system!”, and I think Fisher is the most recent victim (look at Jim Cleamons, Bill Cartwright, Kurt Rambis and to some extent Brian Shaw). It’s something about causation over correlation: you can’t play the Triangle if you don’t have the right (especially regarding their mindset) players to do it. You have no chance with JR (pipe related reasons). You have no chance with Jason Smith (general basketball incompetence). You have few chances with Melo (who seems hellbent on ignoring the system, maybe with authorization from Fisher himself).

    18. I agree with all except this—-You have few chances with Melo (who seems hellbent on ignoring the system, maybe with authorization from Fisher himself).

      He has actually been too passive for my liking. His FGA are way down. And he actually seems to be passing well out of the triangle.

    19. I don’t know, I admit I have watched only bits of games (save for the Miami one), so I may have a skewed perspective on this.

      Also: I’m not saying Melo wouldn’t work in the Triangle. I actually think it’s a very good system for him (and he has the basketball IQ to understand it and benefit from it). I guess he’s just frustrated as hell.

    20. per 36 minutes, he’s taking .8 fewer FGs than last season. His FTAs and 3PT % are both significantly down from last year. Maybe it’s his knee. Maybe it’s the nature of the 3pt shot. Maybe it’s the triangle. Or some combination. My point is that the team sucks, Melo has been thoroughly mediocre, and he seems to be dealing with a knee injury that certainly could have caused his recent back spasms. There is no reason to risk ruining one of our most valuable assets by playing him. Give him a month of treatment (if that would help) or, if he needs surgery, get him the surgery now.

    21. I am not sure what exactly the Triangle is but I know Melo isn’t running it.

      No reason for him to be playing, I agree. We need him back in three weeks healthy, fit and ready to build up his trade value before the deadline….

    22. Good points dREd. I just think the offense is making the players somewhat tenative. Id like to see more agressiveness, like when shump was firing away the first few games. As far as tanking i could be way off like i said but i just cant see what Fisher is doing as a competent gameplan. Unless hes just that bad.

    23. Ironically, even with the worst record to start a season in knicks history, I like watching this team more than some others (i.e. Marbury Curry and early Melo era’s, not to mention teams of the far past).

      Without knowing the scores of the games (repeatedly losing by less than 5), this the knicks look like a 42-44 win team.

    24. . . . He (Melo) has actually been too passive for my liking. ..

      I was waiting all second half for him to start chucking but it never happened. . .
      And we all know thats not the healthy melo mindset.

      So, the problem is that Melo should be shooting more. Mindboggling.

    25. Doubt any of fishers actions are due to ninja tanking. Tanking is done at the top, getting rid of all talent. Why would a coach be complicit? It reflects terrible on him and could destroy a career. Its the reason brett brown gets a free pass, while the 76er might be tanking HE is doing everything he can to win games.

      Only way knicks are tanking is if jackson knew Fisher would be a hopeless coach and brought him along to loose games… But then why such a long deal?

      People WANT to beleive this is all jacksons plan all along because the alternative is that the knicks are simply a bad team, from the players to the coach and the front office.

    26. Let’s just hope that Fisher gets lightning struck on the road to Damascus, just as happened to Jason Kidd last season. Plus, I’d like to deal Dalembert for a second round pick (or Dion Waiters, but only to see Jowles implode at the thought of a Waiters-JR backcourt – no offense to you, Jowles, but nobody better than you to epitomize that).

    27. yes id rather melo shoot than to try and force a cross court pass that gets intercepted. i dont know how 11 shots for melo is good in your eyes. But whatever im just a Knicks/Melo fanboy.

    28. Once we traded Tyson (a perfectly reasonable move) there was no way we weren’t going to suck this season. Absolute best case scenario was sucking less then the really sucky teams and getting wiped out by a good team in the first round of the playoffs. I think Phil and Fish probably knew that going into the season. I doubt they expected we’d be this terrible (for example, I hated the Jason Smith signing, but reasonably intelligent basketball writers like Zach Lowe thought it was a really good move), but hey, Rome wasn’t built in a day either and I doubt that Phil Jackson is stunned we’re bad. Bottom line is we don’t have a whole lot of talent surrounding Melo. If your focal point centerpiece is playing like just a guy, and your supporting cast is headlined by a wildly one dimensional post scorer and a 64 year old backup point guard, there just aren’t a lot of wins to be had.

    29. LOL at the idea of the Knicks secretly tanking. Almost every player on this team sucks when you get right down to it. Even the best players on the team are either having down years (Melo) or are worse than awful on the defensive side of the ball (Stat, Calderon). Pretty much everybody else flat-out sucks at basketball except Pablo.

      THJ – sucks
      Shumpert – sucks
      Jason Smith – sucks
      Sam Dalembert – sucks, at least this year
      Cole – sorry, but he sucks
      Larkin – sucks
      JR Smith – sucks
      Wear Bear – sucks
      Acy – sucks

      This roster is absolutely miserable in terms of NBA talent. I don’t care if you’re running the triangle or the Princeton offense or the Harlem Globetrotters confetti play, this team sucks. I don’t care if Derek Fisher or Pat Riley or Red Auerbach or James Naismith is the coach of this team, it still sucks. WE HAVE TERRIBLE PLAYERS.

    30. Yet there Houston is, with the #2 defensive rating in the league. They defend the three-point shot better than anybody in the NBA.

    31. he knicks look like a 42-44 win team.

      Um, you do know this team is only 1 game up on the D-League level Sixers, right? Up until this week the Knicks had the easiest strength of schedule in the league. Losses to Detroit, Charlotte, Utah, and Orlando. 3-9 at home. Losers of 10 straight on the road.

      44 win team?

    32. Per Hollingers team ratings on ESPN, the Knicks are 21st in team offense and 27th in team defense. Given our personnel, our offensive rank is not horrible. After all, we start Shumpert and Acy, and sometimes Dalembert. I don’t expect a great offense out of that. A new coach and scheme probably wouldn’t change the starters much; because, at least in my experience, when coaches change the new coach usually seems to have similar opinions to the old coach about which players should start, even if the new coach wants a different style offense. So I don’t agree the triangle is a disaster for the Knicks and they shouldn’t be trying to use it. In fact, given how long it was predicted it would take the offense to understand and use it well, the offense is probably doing OK and will get better.

      The defense has very little to do with the triangle, and I don’t know how it’s going to get better.

    33. Remember when SAS reported the Knicks might swap Melo for Harden this summer? lol.

      Please don’t remind me. Most excited I’ve been about a roster change in a long, long time.

    34. Anyone seen this video of James Harden actually playing defense this season? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oP4eXW9y7g

      A. Holy crap, the dude who made that video did a really good job at the graphics and the editing.
      B. Harden’s defense has improved dramatically this season and is currently playing like an MVP-level player overall, buuuutttt…
      C. I bet you could get 10 minutes of defensive highlights from LAST season, as well.

      I don’t mean to knock the overall idea of a “defensive highlights” package for Harden. That’s fine. It just seems odd to have a “defensive highlights” package and use it, as the video seems to be used, to say “See, he’s a good defender now!”

    35. Yeah, let’s say Harden is a little bit more intense this season; also, everytime a player starts playing like a real First-team NBA baller, pundits everywhere start thinking he’s a much better defender than he is (this doesn’t work the other way, though).

    36. Several Knicks, in addition to Hardaway, are at odds with Anthony and believe he’s not playing team basketball. Sources said players voiced their displeasure with Anthony this past weekend, telling him he shoots too much, doesn’t move or pass the ball, and only plays defense when he feels like it.

      Lose-lose scenario in the locker room, but not bad news. This makes a Melo trade more likely (still very, very unlikely) just because he could waive the no-trade clause to get rid of all those talentless losers telling him what to do.

      Just another thought: while I don’t understand who, apart from Pablo and Stat, could really talk to Carmelo about team-related responsibilities (maybe Jose, but he’s been here just for a few days), when will he recognize that he’s driving people away with his primadonna behaviour? Maybe never, like Kobe?

    37. “I think that Fisher is that bad (as of now). The Triangle seems to bring consistently with it some hybris, in the form of “the best team ever played this system, so it must be the system!”, and I think Fisher is the most recent victim (look at Jim Cleamons, Bill Cartwright, Kurt Rambis and to some extent Brian Shaw). It’s something about causation over correlation: you can’t play the Triangle if you don’t have the right (especially regarding their mindset) players to do it. You have no chance with JR (pipe related reasons). You have no chance with Jason Smith (general basketball incompetence). You have few chances with Melo (who seems hellbent on ignoring the system, maybe with authorization from Fisher himself).”

      Very strong opinions…based on what exactly since…

      “I don’t know, I admit I have watched only bits of games”

    38. I take this story with a grain of salt for 3 reasons

      1 Chris Broussard
      2 Sources say.
      3 THJR does nothing but shoot, so how can he call someone out for shooting.

      I said it for years now id like to see Melo traded anyway. Works best for all parties.

    39. Certain his second-year teammate was speaking to him, Carmelo Anthony approached Hardaway on the way down the court and used an expletive to ask Hardaway who in the world he thought he was talking to.

      Anthony, according to sources, then used another expletive in telling Hardaway he was going to beat him up when they got into the locker room after the game.

      Normally I don’t put too much stock in stuff like “leadership” or whatever, but seriously? The guy is 30 years old, one of the highest paid players in the NBA, thought of as a star (rightly or wrongly, for better or worse), and is doing shit like this? That’s fucking ridiculous.

    40. Very strong opinions…based on what exactly since…

      “I don’t know, I admit I have watched only bits of games”

      It’s ok. Next time I’ll comment only after watching a game three times in a row. Come on, it’s obvious that I’m saying I could have missed some portion where Melo was passive just because I didn’t have time to watch the entire game next day. It doesn’t mean I watched 50 minutes total of Knicks basketball. I think I watched around 400 minutes until now, and while I think it’s enough to have an opinion, I certainly thought it was honest to say I could have missed something. Are you maybe suggesting the plays in the 4th quarters against Miami and Brooklyn were examples of sound basketball principles, or maybe it was a lone gunner shooting every single time?

    41. 3 THJR does nothing but shoot, so how can he call someone out for shooting.

      Yes exactly. THJR has earned no right whatsoever to speak his mind to his elders on concepts like “rebounding”, “passing”, “defending”.

    42. Maybe there’s a way to sign-and-trade Melo to Chicago, where we take on Carlos Boozer’s contract and get some assets like Nikola Mirotic and Jimmy Butler. Wait, wha– oh yeah, that ship has sailed.

      We’re 1/4 of the way through one season and there are already Melo/triangle/locker room controversies happening. I’d say another 20 or so games of this and MeloDrama III should really start heating up.

    43. “Yes exactly. THJR has earned no right whatsoever to speak his mind to his elders on concepts like “rebounding”, “passing”, “defending”.”
      More to the point — People on the team are criticizing Melo’s defense? I’m not saying that the criticism is not valid, but who on this team thinks that he has earned the right to criticize anyone else’s defense?
      “It’s ok. Next time I’ll comment only after watching a game three times in a row.”
      Don’t take offense. I just thought that it was kind of funny.

    44. Jeez, that article is pretty consistent with the product we’re seeing on the court — general lack of effort and disinterest. Maybe a lot of guys are checked out because they realize they aren’t going to be on the team next year. It’s not hard to believe they resent Melo because he is given preferential treatment… But come on, this seems like some petty high school shit. If I go to the gym and go all out playing pick-up basketball 5 nights a week, I really don’t understand how a professional basketball player could not give max effort every game. That’s all I really want next year: players that play hard and seem like they actually give a shit (Wes Matthews, anyone?). I’ve been watching the Knicks since I was in elementary school (Starbury, Isaiah years) and we’ve never had a team like that. Never. If we could even trot out 3 lockdown defenders in our starting line-up next year with Melo and Calderon I’d be ecstatic. I’d like to believe that PJax and the rest of our front office has a similar vision. At least that’s all I’m clinging to to get me through this season.

    45. Are you maybe suggesting the plays in the 4th quarters against Miami and Brooklyn were examples of sound basketball principles, or maybe it was a lone gunner shooting every single time?

      Just to be clear: this is NOT a critique on Melo. I think Melo is in a very bad place with this team right now. Lots of people, even if it was a minority, didn’t want him to resign (at least not at these dollars/year), the coach doesn’t seem to be respected, the team doesn’t seem to go anywhere, Phil doesn’t seem to have brought anything yet. So I understand his human desire to take matters in his hands, since they are (in terms of talent) the best suited ones.

    46. –We’re 1/4 of the way through one season and there are already Melo/triangle/locker room controversies happening

      According to sources Timmy was beephin since last year lol

    47. Maybe a lot of guys are checked out because they realize they aren’t going to be on the team next year.

      –Interesting theory. Im just having an issue comprehending Timmy. Maybe hes trying to sabotage himself? idk but to come out gunning for your franchise player as a rookie is just odd. No matter what you think about melo.

    48. On the other hand, anything that results in the vastly overrated Tim Hardaway Jr. getting shipped out of town is A-okay by me. Maybe some other dummy team might think “hey, all-rookie team, and his dad was a good player” and send us a pick or something.

    49. How in the world does a rookie (not even a guy drafted in the lottery, who at least have something kind of sort of backing up their ego) complain about a star player getting preferential treatment over him? You’re a rookie!

    50. Don’t take offense. I just thought that it was kind of funny.

      Yeah, no problem man. I was just being a little sarcastic. It’s just that I don’t want to be perceived as anti-Melo, even though I was advocating against resigning him at these conditions. I try to sound as balanced as possible, that’s all.

    51. Woodson was still the coach in the part of the article where it notes that THJ complained about Melo’s preferential treatment last year, when THJ was a rookie.

    52. —Normally I don’t put too much stock in stuff like “leadership” or whatever, but seriously? The guy is 30 years old, one of the highest paid players in the NBA, thought of as a star (rightly or wrongly, for better or worse), and is doing shit like this? That’s fucking ridiculous.

      Nah i think this kinda stuff happens all the time in the NBA. People just dont go to the press with it. There is alotta shit talk out there.

      “Certain his second-year teammate was speaking to him, Carmelo Anthony approached Hardaway on the way down the court and used an expletive to ask Hardaway who in the world he thought he was talking to.

      Anthony, according to sources, used another expletive in telling Hardaway he was going to beat him up when they got into the locker room after the game.”

      Timmy has to be this source right?

    53. this is like Lord of Flies. Or like the Hunger Games with Phil watching like Philip Seymour Hoffman. Somehow you get the feeling this was part of what Phil wanted this year — to let players’ true selves come out. 4-19 may not have been expected but weeks ago before this turned into a 9-alarm dumpster fire he said he needed to separate the believers and nonbelievers.

    54. @65

      Yes, this might be a reasonable theory, and I wouldn’t be against it. The only thing I don’t like about that is Fisher not pressing the accountability issue. Do you believe? You play, even if you’re the Wear Bear. You don’t believe? You don’t play until you’ll prove your belief, even if you’re the best player.

    55. so, Melo and Tim don’t get along. Who do we figure the “sources” are doing the rest of the bitching? JR wouldn’t bitch about Melo. Is there anyone else? Maybe it’s Shump or Stat? I can’t see Jose / Pablo / Sam doing it. Maybe Cole is the whistle blower? or cleanthony?

      I particularly liked the part about Fisher not giving a light practice day after a loss as being an issue. but, the real kicker…..we don’t switch this year!!!!!!

    56. Since no one else did, I will take up my own suggestion and get the ball rolling with the seeding in the forthcoming intra-Knicks ultimate fighter round robin tournament given recent developments, listed from dog to favorite.

      16. Pablo.
      15. Jose Calderon. Black market odds on a play-in match between Jose and Coach are pick-em.
      14. Shane Larkin. It is hard to run away in a cage.
      13. Bargs. He may not be an effective cage fighter, but he will have some of the best outside shooting form of any 7′ MMA fighter in history.
      12. Travis Wear. Not enough evidence of owning the crazy gene.
      11. Tim Hardaway Jr. Being 6′ 6″ and one of the worst rebounders in the history of the NBA with a decent childhood doesn’t bode well in the ring.
      10. Amar’e. High risk of suffering an injury while complaining to ref about illegal eye poke.
      09. Melo. Size, strength and coordination will not help when he forced into turtle position to protect his prized document signing finger.
      08. Cleanthony Early. Why not.
      07. Shump. Angry streak and athleticism help overcome lack of size and tendency to panic in the chokehold.
      06. Jason Smith. Crazy gene: check. Size: Check. Intimidation factor: uncheck.
      05. Country Cole. Will obliterate literally any opponent for the first 22 seconds before either disqualification by foul or going entirely limp from exhaustion.
      04. Dalembert. 250 pounds and the reach of a Octopus will keep you at the end of his jab or smothered against the cage for three rounds.
      03. Quincy Acy. The only current Knick you would even allow in the same cage with the historic old guard of Oak, Mason and X-man. Actually, no.
      02. Jr Smith. Experience is a crucial differentiator in the fight game, even if that experience means fighting small, female Chinese basketball fans to protect your sister. Massive crazy points.
      01. Pablo

    57. Who do we figure the “sources” are doing the rest of the bitching? JR wouldn’t bitch about Melo. Is there anyone else?

      –Nah Shump is in the Melo camp. I remember he bitched out some random fan on twitter for talking shit about him. So idk who Brousaurds “sources” are. Maybe Amare, since hes on his last year he said eff it. idk hes really the only person i would think that would go to the media as he takes jabs all the time.

    58. The Triangle seems to bring consistently with it some hybris, in the form of “the best team ever played this system, so it must be the system!”, and I think Fisher is the most recent victim

      So, what if Fisher concludes that the triangle is not the way to go, and PJ insists it is. You have a rookie coach locked in long term running an offense he doesn’t believe in.
      This is the knicks world.

    59. “Once Tim Hardaway is traded away (along with two future picks to sweeten the deal), this team can stop underachieving and Carmelo will start playing his typically-productive game again. I predict fifty wins.”

      -ruruland (speculatively paraphrased)

      I mean, if he’s not going to post during the bad times, I feel like we should post for him.

    60. +1 Jowles.

      So, what if Fisher concludes that the triangle is not the way to go, and PJ insists it is. You have a rookie coach locked in long term running an offense he doesn’t believe in.
      This is the knicks world.

      This is one thing that I’m afraid of. Fisher realizing there could be other ways (not that the Triangle has to be completely ditched; but you could go for some P’n’R sometimes, even with Melo as the ball handler), adapting to that thought, and PJ lording over him to convince Fish to keep on Triangling.

    61. I’ve been missing Ruru this season. If ever there was a time when we needed his unwavering faith that things would eventually come up Melo it would be now.

      On the topic of the Broussard piece I’d bet the source isn’t a player. Reading the phrasing of the quotes it doesn’t sound like a player to me, more like an assistant coach or a trainer or something. E.g. “But some of it’s just basketball stuff that the players don’t like doing.” A player wouldn’t call his teammates “the players”. I know the story is sexier if the source is Shump or Amare but it’s probably somebody relatively anonymous.

    62. So the team is complaining about having to work hard after a loss? (They miss the days of Woodson?) Yeesh.

    63. How in the world does a rookie (not even a guy drafted in the lottery, who at least have something kind of sort of backing up their ego) complain about a star player getting preferential treatment over him? You’re a rookie!

      If the team superstar leader is sabotaging the team with his hero-ball / no defense, why the hell shouldn’t he be called out on it, even if it’s from the last guy on the bench. It’s good to see someone had the balls to do it. Problem is, no one with authority calls Melo out.

    64. Triangle, triangle, triangle. The freakin’ triangle is a red herring. This team blows because pretty much all the players stink. I suppose you could run some sort of SSOL small-ball offense with this team or something and eke out a few more wins, but really, what is the point? I am perfectly happy with the way this season is going, for the following reasons:
      1. Ping pong ballz
      2. Melo will eventually demand to be traded

    65. Ruru would be telling us that the Knicks are actually a good team, but “the shots just aren’t falling.”

    66. My guess is that the source is someone in the organization. Maybe Allan Houston? He was sort of de-emphasized by the new regime, so I could see him being willing to tell some tales. If it was a player, it’d pretty much have to be Hardaway.

    67. Look, if you ask me I’ll tell you the only guy who gets repeatedly treated unfairly on this team is Pablo (sadly, I guess Cole is a very sloppy guy in practice so it’s possible he’s been treated appropriately). Other than that, nobody else has the right to think he’s been treated poorly. Everyone had his chance (someone more than others – looking at the Smiths).

    68. I just cant fathom how anyone would really want Melo on their team… he is an emotionless dud who hasn’t done much for anyone lately, except himself… I’d rather be the Sixers right now… As a fan of a shitty team, at least we’d get to see guys giving it their all (though MCW is a straight chucker)… We’re left with the most underachieving team, probably of all time… Melo joins the list of the way overpaid NON leaders… the all timers…

      I’m taking THJr over Melo simply because he does show some fire… so what if he sucks on D… or does this wrong, or does that wrong… What the hell does Melo do right??? an occasional flurry of rebounds… a flurry of mid range jumpers in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters… hes our next albatross… hes what ruins the next 5 years for all of us…

    69. I’m taking THJr over Melo simply because he does show some fire… so what if he sucks on D… or does this wrong, or does that wrong… What the hell does Melo do right???

      LOL. Thank god you arent GMing

    70. and while we’re speculating on who said what… maybe the sources are Melo’s camp… maybe this is it… the way out for him

    71. I’d love to see the play in question… anyone?
      —Me too….wish Brousard wasnt a hack journalist and actually posted it.

    72. I saw (or thought I saw — admittedly, the “eye test” is unreliable) something really weird in last night’s game. Knicks were up 35-34. Over the next couple minutes, the Knicks scored 5 and the Pelicans scored 4, so the score on the screen read 40-38 Knicks. Then the Knicks scored and, very briefly, the score on the screen correctly read Knicks 42, Pelicans 38 but, almost immediately, it changed to 40-40. Am I starting to go senile, or did that really happen?

    73. Finally! Something to talk about besides losing.

      1. Pablo fucks up everyone in the thunderdome via sneakiness

      2. Is the source for that hatchet job familiar with Carmelo’s beliefs concerning snitching?

      3. Tim Hardaway yelling for someone to get a rebound makes this season a success.

      4. I’d bet money it was Stat telling Melo he needs to pass more and shoot less.

      5. Team harmony sure has improved without no effort bus thrower underer Tyson Chandler around.

    74. no effort bus thrower underer Tyson Chandler around.

      –You have to admit he was doing that last year

      Stat thinks everyone should pass more to him. He often says it to the media too , so i agree

    75. I’m not surprised there is turmoil on the team. The players are unhappy because of all the losing, and that makes for arguments. They probably don’t buy into the Triangle either for the same reason; it’s not working well enough yet to give them a reasonable number of wins.

    76. Stat was complaining about non-passing last year as well. So if he can complain about that is it hard to believe Hardaway can complain about non-defending or non-rebounding. I gather athletes as a whole are not particularly introspective fellows.

    77. Chandler’s making every nay-sayer on this board and elsewhere look like a fool. From WP48 to WS48 to PER to ORTG he is an absolute stud.

      Maybe there is something to this whole “effort” thing.

    78. Has anyone else noticed that, in each of the last 4 years, Amare has had a higher shooting percentage than awesome finisher Tyson Chandler from 0-3 feet from the rim? It’s a shame that Amare is dumb enough to shoot when he’s 4 feet from the rim sometimes.

    79. Well, this seems to make melo taking only 11 shots against the pellies look like a “JR 0 for 1 vs boston” light move

    80. The source could be a Net, no? Or a ref? Or anybody sitting near the scorers table that saw the exchange.

    81. Chandler’s making every nay-sayer on this board and elsewhere look like a fool. From WP48 to WS48 to PER to ORTG he is an absolute stud.

      Maybe there is something to this whole “effort” thing.

      –In a weird way your Chandler love is making the “effort” crowds point. I mean hes absolutely beasting this year, and was mediocre as fuck last year. By your own standard.

    82. The source could be a Net, no? Or a ref? Or anybody sitting near the scorers table that saw the exchange.

      –Someone needs to find this video. Everything is on film. Brousards credibility is shit so idk if we will ever find it.

    83. Yep, Tyson is back to the level of play he showed during his first couple of seasons with NYK, when he was an awesome player. He has been one of the best players in the league any way you slice it.

    84. Plus the Mavs have Chandler and also mini-Chandler, Brandan Wright. Wright plays the same brand of ridiculously high-percentage basketball as the T-1000. The Mavs are the #1 offense in the league, and those two combining for an average of about 20 PPG on 11 FGA isn’t hurting.

    85. This leak probably is coming from the same leak that said Melo signed the max with the Knicks to get the money now and figure out where to play later. They’re going to paint the team as a dysfunctional mess, so that Melo can save some face if he wants out.

    86. This leak probably is coming from the same leak that said Melo signed the max with the Knicks to get the money now and figure out where to play later. They’re going to paint the team as a dysfunctional mess, so that Melo can save some face if he wants out.

      AMEN!

    87. Hey guys. How’s it going. Sorry I haven’t posted much recently, I spent so much time talking about how great Melo is that I don’t want to be around to accept the backlash. Wait, no I didn’t. I’m just not posting because this is depressing as fuck and I haven’t been watching.

      Oh for the good old days when we could dream about what Chicago might give us in a sign-and-trade for Carmelo Anthony.

      Or imagine that Marc Gasol might come here.

    88. This leak probably is coming from the same leak that said Melo signed the max with the Knicks to get the money now and figure out where to play later. They’re going to paint the team as a dysfunctional mess, so that Melo can save some face if he wants out.

      That’s a very smart guess. Isn’t Broussard linked with that stupid agency that runs Melo and used to run us, too?

    89. Don’t worry guys, Melo’s contract only runs through 2019, so we’re already through about 5% of it! This is what MMM’s contract looks like:

      2014-2015 $22.4
      2015-2016 $22.8 (this is the year he gave the .0000001% discount)
      2016-2017 $24.5
      2017-2018 $26.2
      2018-2019 $27.9

      I actually really do hope he starts complaining and demanding a trade. Even if the Knicks get pennies on the dollar in return, getting rid of this godawful contract before it becomes completely unmovable would be like manna from heaven.

    90. If we were to trade Melo now:

      a) where could we send him,

      b) what do you think we could get in return, assuming he doesn’t fuck us over completely with his NTC.

      Realistic ideas only, please.

    91. I don’t think his contract is that bad, JK47.

      For us, it wasn’t smart to give it to him, especially when we could have gotten good rebuilding assets via a sign-and-trade. But I don’t see that contract as unmovable or even unattractive from a trade standpoint.

      The issue is his NTC, and how much he can fuck us if he wants to.

    92. But I don’t see that contract as unmovable or even unattractive from a trade standpoint.

      Yeah, I agree with that, as long as the trade happens this year or next.

    93. The contract may not look bad on paper right now, but he’s playing like poop so far and there is a very good chance that his age 28 and 29 seasons were his peak, and that he will slide down to being the .140 WS48 player he always was. Which is piss-poor value for a guy who is going to be making $25M+ by the end of that deal.

      Of course, this is the part of the story where Melo gets smart, and says he’ll refuse any trade that guts the team he will be going to. Because Knicks. So whatever, trade him for a shorter bad contract and a first-round pick and call it a day.

    94. Yeah, I think there’s a bunch of teams that would want him, and give up good things to get him. But unfortunately Anthony cares more about the character of a city than the character of the franchise. He only fancies playing in NY, LA, or CHI. But Phoenix, Toronto, Memphis, Milwaukee, Washington, Atlanta, New Orleans, and Orlando would all be much better fits. Hopefully he realizes this and waives his ntc.

    95. They Should look to unload Calderon to a contender at the Trade dline. if they do that this would be the roster going into next year.

      Melo -$22.8 (this is the year he gave the .0000001% discount) yes this helps as much as you mock it
      Possibly Jr -6.4 Mil
      Shump – 4 mil
      Pablo- 1.7 mil
      Timmy (maybe) – 1.3 mil
      Cleanthony -845k

      Thats 33 mil under contract before shump and Amare who can be signed with bird rights. And the expected cap is supposed to be ~70 million

    96. The contract may not look bad on paper right now, but he’s playing like poop so far and there is a very good chance that his age 28 and 29 seasons were his peak, and that he will slide down to being the .140 WS48 player he always was.

      —I mean come on this is speculation. Hes hurt this year and is on a bum knee. If we can surround with good free agents and picks he can thrive. This offseason will be huge

    97. if you include empty roster spots, shumps cap-hold and a cap hold for a number 5 pick you get to ~45,8 mil in salary.

      Even with a cap going up to 70 mil, thats not close to 30 mil + the cap right now is projected to be 66,3.
      That would leave exactly 20 mil. Amare’s bird rights have to be renounced, since his huge caphold would eat up all cap space (it’s almost 25 mil)

    98. the fantasy of a melo trade is just so juicy… it would be a nice burden off my emotion’s shoulders…

    99. Of course, this is the part of the story where Melo gets smart, and says he’ll refuse any trade that guts the team he will be going to. Because Knicks. So whatever, trade him for a shorter bad contract and a first-round pick and call it a day.

      I think we have a small window right now in which we can negate some of Melo’s leverage. For one thing, I doubt he wants to lose this year in the middle of his prime. We can leverage that against him a bit. What can he do if we decide that we won’t move him til next year? Sabatoge the team?!

      So yeah, if we can get him to at least give us 2-3 teams he is willing to go to (quietly), and then work with those teams, we should be able to leverage an adequate deal in return for getting him to a good team right away.

    100. –if you include empty roster spots, shumps cap-hold and a cap hold for a number 5 pick you get to ~45,8 mil in salary
      Wait so if you include shump at 4mil thats 37 mil. So the Cap holds are 8 milion? That seems really high.

    101. But, I think Phil still thinks his best shot to build something here is:

      1. Hold onto Melo
      2. Sign Marc Gasol
      3. Trade our lottery pick for a third star.

      I don’t think he’s right, but I think that’s his plan.

      EDIT: And if it is, then operation shutdown is the most logical thing to do.

    102. 3. Trade our lottery pick for a third star.

      that could be the worst thing the Knicks could do, granted its in the Top 3.

      I think the Knicks should attack free agency not by blowing their collective load all on one player but to maybe focus on the younger players who will be RFA’s (ie. Leonard, Reggie Jackson, or Butler). I don’t think I would be that upset to slightly overpay for a player who is still young, especially since its only a four year deal.

    103. Shumps caphold is 250% of his previous salary = 6,9 (shamsports has it at 6,5 but I think they are wrong)
      In your scenario you need 5 empty roster spots = 2,5 mil and a number 5 draft pick makes over 3 million in his first year.

    104. Trades to either LAL, LAC or CHI are all but impossible though, because of the payroll structures of those teams.

      You could do Melo for Kobe, plus a first round pick, plus Randle or something like that, but the Lakers don’t own their 2015 or 2017 picks, and the next pick they can include in a trade is 2019. They do have Houston’s pick this year which is probably going to be a late 20’s pick, so not all that valuable, and Randle has the problem of sucking and being injury prone.

      Trades to the Clips or Bulls just seem impossible, because you can’t make the salaries match, although I admit I am completely flummoxed by the way the NBA salary cap works so maybe I’m wrong.

    105. –Shumps caphold is 250% of his previous salary = 6,9 (shamsports has it at 6,5 but I think they are wrong)
      In your scenario you need 5 empty roster spots = 2,5 mil and a number 5 draft pick makes over 3 million in his first year.

      –I admit I am completely flummoxed by the way the NBA salary cap works
      Me too. Why would a restricted fa cap hold be 250% ? Whats the point of the QO and Bird Rights then?

    106. 3. Trade our lottery pick for a third star.

      that could be the worst thing the Knicks could do, granted its in the Top 3.

      I don’t disagree. But I don’t see how “wanting to win with Melo” and “grooming a lottery pick” go hand in hand. So if Melo is still here next year, I can’t imagine us keeping that pick.

      And yes, we should add that to the cost of acquiring Carmelo Anthony.

    107. I don’t now why, I only know larry coons faq says it is so .. (thats where all my cap “knowledge” comes from anyhow):

      “A restricted free agent is included in team salary by the greatest of:

      His free agent amount (as defined in the table above)
      The amount of his qualifying offer (see question number 44)
      The first-year salary in a first refusal exercise notice (a notice given to the player that the team is exercising its right of first refusal by matching an offer sheet (see question number 44)”

      I actually don’t get the last point, so I just figured it would be irrelevant

    108. “Why would a restricted fa cap hold be 250% ? Whats the point of the QO and Bird Rights then?”
      Because most worthwhile RFAs are going to get a huge increase from their rookie contract and they don’t want teams to be able to have “imaginary” cap space. In other words, assuming that Shumpert rights himself and is worth a new contract of about $9 million a year, the NBA doesn’t want him to count as only $2 million against the cap, creating an additional $7 million in cap space that really doesn’t exist (because once he re-signs, the full $9 million will count against the cap, not the artificially low $2 million). The reason for Bird rights is to allow a team to go over the cap to sign its own players, but it doesn’t allow the player to count against the cap for less than his contract amount. The qualifying offer is merely a team’s way of announcing to the world that they want to keep a guy and want the chance to match any offer that he gets from someone else.

    109. i wonder when salaries got so complicated. I guess once you artificially cap the salaries you have to find ways to circumvent them.

    110. Why would a restricted fa cap hold be 250% ?

      Probably because rookie contracts are so artificially driven down in value that 250% is a more accurate representation of the cost to re-sign that player.

    111. I don’t disagree. But I don’t see how “wanting to win with Melo” and “grooming a lottery pick” go hand in hand. So if Melo is still here next year, I can’t imagine us keeping that pick.

      If the Knicks did land the first overall pick and selected Okafor, only to trade him for a Rajon Rondo, I think that would be the straw to push me over the edge as a Knicks fan. It would be a typical Knicks move. Trade 12-15 years of potential Tim Duncan comparison (NBA Draft Room’s words, not mine) for an aging, moody faux star because it doesn’t fit into the plan of winning with Melo. I’m so fed up with this “We need 3 stars to win theory”. Half the players named aren’t even true stars.

    112. @12 i get your points and maybe im just slow to comprehend. But the QO is 4 million. say hes offered 9 million and the knicks match. Wouldnt the Knicks be able to go over the cap to sign him to the 9mil deal once they are already over the cap? I realize that there is a 48hr window to match but in my scenario the knicks would already be at the cap when it was offered. (I think this was the Lin scenario) That 6.5 million dollar hold would not allow the knicks to sign anyone else with that space right?

      Ugh idk , i think im confusing myself now

    113. –If the Knicks did land the first overall pick and selected Okafor, only to trade him for a Rajon Rondo.

      Come on thats extreme.

    114. Come on thats extreme.

      You’re right. But what are “star” out there that the Knicks would trade their pick for so that they can “win now” with Melo?

    115. If we get the #1 pick and there is a surefire franchise player (a la Duncan, LeBron, Davis) sitting there, I’m sure that would alter our thinking and we’d keep it.

      But if we get the #4 pick and are looking at a guy who could turn out to be OJ Mayo or could end up Dwyane Wade, I think we’re shopping it.

    116. as soon as the knicks offer shump the QO his 6,9 caphold is on the books and they keep his bird rights, so yes, if they are at the cap limit when he signs an offer sheet, they can match it to go over the cap. Until they matched it his 6,9 counts against the cap.

      Which means in your scenario, that they can go 2 mil over the cap with matching a 9 mil contract.

    117. You’re right. But what are “star” out there that the Knicks would trade their pick for so that they can “win now” with Melo?

      –why are you so convinced they will trade the pick? The other star is supposed to be a free agent this offseason

    118. –as soon as the knicks offer shump the QO his 6,9 caphold is on the books and they keep his bird rights, so yes, if they are at the cap limit when he signs an offer sheet, they can match it to go over the cap. Until they matched it his 6,9 counts against the cap.

      Which means in your scenario, that they can go 2 mil over the cap with matching a 9 mil contract.

      The crazy thing is that a team could troll the Knicks to make them match before they hit the cap.

    119. Why are we talking about Shump’s cap hold? Shump is godawful. He is a truly awful offensive player, and his defense isn’t good enough to make up the difference. His next contract is going to be terrible value.

    120. –why are you so convinced they will trade the pick? The other star is supposed to be a free agent this offseason

      I’m not. I believe they should and will keep it. But people have intimated that if the pick isn’t a top 3 it could get moved for a 3rd star so that we can win now with Melo. I’m not one who thinks that’s a great move especially with that so called stars that could be available in a trade.

    121. I’m not one who thinks that’s a great move especially with that so called stars that could be available in a trade.

      –Cavs traded 2 #1s for love.

    122. Why are we talking about Shump’s cap hold? Shump is godawful. He is a truly awful offensive player, and his defense isn’t good enough to make up the difference. His next contract is going to be terrible value.

      –yea they may as well renounce him if they dont trade him

    123. To think, we were a hair close to trading Shump to the Clippers at last year’s deadline for Darren Collison

    124. I thought that was a bad trade to begin with. Especially since it was only a rental. Love is overrated.

    125. Melo and Shump for Butler and Mirotic, with some other team contributing a large contract to make salaries work. It can’t be impossible, and it makes Chicago a legit contender which currently they aren’t. It may also make the Knicks the next Toronto.

    126. “–yea they may as well renounce him if they dont trade him”
      I’m pretty sure that they can make a qualifying offer, leading to the 6.9 million cap hold but, if they want to use all or some of that 6.9 million in cap space, they can renounce it any time before he accepts it.

    127. –They can renounce it any time before he accepts it.

      ahhh yea you are right. Thats when Bird Rights come in. Thanks man shit was making my head hurt. I knew something didnt make sense

    128. But people have intimated that if the pick isn’t a top 3 it could get moved for a 3rd star so that we can win now with Melo. I’m not one who thinks that’s a great move especially with that so called stars that could be available in a trade.

      I think it was only me who intimated it. And I don’t think it’s a great idea either.

      But I also don’t think trying to build around Carmelo Anthony is a great idea, and we’re doing that.

      So if you believe you can build around Carmelo Anthony, would you rather have a player who might be 2-4 years away from being an impact player or would you rather trade the pick for a player who is an impact player right now? I’m just trying to read the tea leaves, but I think they’re pretty clear.

    129. So then they should keep shumpert for the same reason that all of the people wanted to keep Lin right. just go over the cap for a rotation player

    130. Melo and Shump for Butler and Mirotic, with some other team contributing a large contract to make salaries work. It can’t be impossible, and it makes Chicago a legit contender

      That trade makes Chicago worse.

    131. –That trade makes Chicago worse.

      Ha knew someone would say this. Love KB.

      Rose
      Shumpert
      Melo
      Pau
      Noah

      Thats a nice lineup. But Nah lets start Dunlevy lol

    132. Melo and Shump for Butler and Mirotic, with some other team contributing a large contract to make salaries work. It can’t be impossible, and it makes Chicago a legit contender which currently they aren’t.

      Well, hopefully the Bulls are really really stupid and agree to make such a trade. Butler and Mirotic are their two best players so far this season and both of them are playing rings around Melo.

    133. I would keep the prospect because there is life after Melo and his contract. Okafor or towns would be a nice homegrown building block for a decade or so.

    134. You know what’s a nice lineup? The one the Bulls have right now. The one in which Jimmy Butler is one of the best players in the NBA and Nikola Mirotic (while still adjusting to a new country and a new league) is performing better than Carmelo Anthony. You want to propose a 4 player trade in which we’re getting arguably the two best players right now. Good luck with that.

      The thing that pains me, by the way, is if you look through the archives I know I proposed this trade over the summer, when it might have actually been possible because Mirotic was unknown and Butler hadn’t taken this leap and Chicago seemed to be desperate. Would have been nice to have fleeced them for once. But even then they were probably too smart to do this.

    135. not to rain on our bataan death march of a parade, but the knicksiest outcome is we line up a great trade, melo agrees to waive the NTC, and then he fails his medical and becomes NYK STAT 2.0, except this time we have no assets to lose on a bad trade for a second star.

    136. Mirotic is a good building block. I like the trade for both teams and I bet you the Bulls would do that if they could. They have an aging Noah and Gasol, Gibson is 30 and Rose is oft hurt. The bulls would go for the jugular this year with that trade.

    137. who ever said lin was better than melo? but TH2 looks like this year’s sacrifice to the altar.

    138. Butler also plays good defense which makes him better player if his ts was .542 but Bref has it at .602

    139. you right this came up on espn. So i appologize.. But i still think the Bulls would do that trade.

      ’14-’15 (Projected)

      14.1

      5.4

      2.5

      54.2

      14.7

      8.7

      16.8

      7.6

      .523

      6.3

    140. Tonight’s game is must watch TV. Pop is going to take Melo sitting as a personal challenge to see whether he can rest 12 and play only 3. Meanwhile, the Knicks will have to implement serious security measures to prevent a mass defection a la the Cuban olympic team. I really hope the League Pass feed gives me Clyde for it.

    141. Rose
      Shumpert
      Melo
      Pau
      Noah

      Thats a nice lineup. But Nah lets start Dunlevy lol

      Butler/Dunleavy>Melo/Shumpert. Sorry, it’s just the truth. We missed our chance to extract value from Chicago, they’d never do that trade now.

    142. What about moving Melo for Pau and Mirotic (plus some other filler from another team)?
      That seems more plausible from Chicago’s perspective.
      It also lines us up for at least a semi-decent shot at Marc Gasol (by giving him the opportunity to play with his bro, Calderon, and whomever we pick first).

    143. Re Melo trade….I honestly don’t think he is very movable. It is going to take an aggressive (probably dumb) owner….so with that being said, my guess is that the Kings would look at Melo. Maybe Gay + Stauskas or Mclemore + 1st and filler for Melo + filler? Does Sac make that trade and would Melo be willing to go to Sac? I dont know.

    144. Does Sac make that trade and would Melo be willing to go to Sac?

      Oh yeah, I’m sure Melo is just gonna be super psyched to go play in Suckramento.

    145. OK than, Dunleavy and cap fodder for Melo and Shump…
      I mean come’on guys, Melo at 124M isn’t the right fit for this team at this point but he is a very good player and with Rose and Noah and Gasol that’s a contender for Chicago. And Shump as the 5th or 6th best player on a team is quite good.

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