Knicks Morning News (2014.12.06)

  • [New York Times] Ginobili, Duncan Lift Spurs Over Grizzlies 107-101 (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 08:03:54 GMT)

    The Memphis Grizzlies dominance at home could only be outdone by the San Antonio Spurs dominance over the Grizzlies.

  • [New York Times] Gay, Landry Lead Kings Over Pacers 102-101 in OT (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 06:18:48 GMT)

    Rudy Gay scored 27 points, Carl Landry made the game-winning basket with just under a second to play and the Sacramento Kings beat the struggling Indiana Pacers 102-101 in overtime Friday night to stop a four-game losing streak.

  • [New York Times] James Scores 24, Cavaliers Beat Raptors 105-91 (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 05:03:53 GMT)

    Less than two weeks ago, the Raptors went into Cleveland and rallied from an early 18-point deficit to win 110-93, causing LeBron James to call the Cavaliers “a very fragile team.”

  • [New York Times] Harris, Oladipo Lead Magic Over Jazz 98-93 (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 04:51:40 GMT)

    Tobias Harris scored 22 points and Victor Oladipo had 20 to help the Orlando Magic outlast Utah 98-93 Friday night and send the Jazz to their eighth loss in a row.

  • [New York Times] Dragic, Suns End Mavericks’ 5-Game Streak, 118-106 (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 04:36:47 GMT)

    Goran Dragic had 28 points and a season-high 13 assists, Markieff Morris scored 22 and the Phoenix Suns beat Dallas 118-106 Friday night, ending the Mavericks’ five-game winning streak.

  • [New York Times] Marshall Leads Bucks Over Heat 109-85 (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 04:24:45 GMT)

    Kendall Marshall came off the bench and scored a season-high 20 points, including three big 3-pointers in the fourth quarter, as the Milwaukee Bucks beat the Miami Heat 109-85 on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Johnson’s Layup Lifts Rockets Over Wolves in OT (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 04:09:45 GMT)

    James Harden had 38 points before fouling out and Nick Johnson scored on a driving layup with 0.8 seconds to go in overtime that helped the Houston Rockets escape with a 114-112 victory over the Minnesota Timberwolves on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Hornets 103, Knicks 102: Knicks Storm Back, and Then Fall to Hornets at the Buzzer (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 04:03:40 GMT)

    With a disheartening loss to the Hornets, the Knicks took one step closer to lottery relevance.

  • [New York Times] Walker, Hornets Sink Knicks 103-102 to End Skid (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 04:00:44 GMT)

    Kemba Walker didn’t know whether to celebrate or breathe a sigh of relief.

  • [New York Times] Ginobili, Duncan Lift Spurs Over Grizzlies 107-101 (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 03:51:48 GMT)

    Manu Ginobili scored 17 points, Tim Duncan recorded a triple-double of 14 points, 10 rebounds and 10 assists to lead the San Antonio Spurs to a 107-101 victory over the Memphis Grizzlies on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Hawks Rout Nets 98-75 for 5th Straight Victory (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 03:36:44 GMT)

    DeMarre Carroll scored 16 of his 18 points in the first half, Paul Millsap had 17 points and the Atlanta Hawks beat the Brooklyn Nets 98-75 Friday night for their fifth straight victory.

  • [New York Times] Zeller Leads Celtics to 113-96 Win Over Lakers (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 03:15:51 GMT)

    Tyler Zeller had season highs of 24 points and 14 rebounds and the Boston Celtics went ahead for good less than two minutes into the game for a 113-96 win over the Los Angeles Lakers on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Westbrook Leads Thunder Over 76ers 103-91 (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 02:51:45 GMT)

    Russell Westbrook had 27 points to lead the Oklahoma City Thunder to a 103-91 victory over the Philadelphia 76ers on Friday night.

  • [New York Times] Wizards See Double in Easy Win Over Nuggets (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 02:39:43 GMT)

    Kris Humphries scored 20 points, Rasual Butler and Kevin Seraphin each had 16 as the Washington Wizards scored their biggest win of the season, beating the Denver Nuggets 119-89 on Friday night.

  • [New York Post] Worst start in Knicks history not getting Derek Fisher down (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 05:56:33 -0500)

    CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Derek Fisher knows he has an ignominious piece to add to a resume that includes five championship rings. He has guided the Knicks to their worst start…

  • [New York Post] Another game, another loss for Knicks (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 01:37:47 -0500)

    Knicks fall to Hornets.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks fall to Hornets on Kemba Walker buzzer-beater (Sat, 06 Dec 2014 06:05:02 GMT)

    Forget about the Knicks viewing any struggling opponent as a chance to finally get back into the win column.

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    145 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2014.12.06)”

    1. Losing teams are so often overwhelmed by the desire not to lose, they pay less attention to detail. It’s why things snowball.
      Two example, involving two of our oldest (and most fundamentally sound) players:
      1. Kemba blows a lay and the Knicks transition to Calderon at the left 3pt elbow. Calderon takes his time to set up and ignore everything around him., and like a million pick-up games I’ve played in some defender does a full on sweeping arm rejection. Silly momentum crusher.
      2. Pablo forgetting to foul on Kemba when he knew he was beat.
      Both really just not paying attention to dimple points of the game.

      Losing teams are ALWAYS thinking about the wrong things.

    2. The first season I check the standings to count how many games from the bottom, instead of to the top.
      . . . as if it really matters. You can give this team the first five picks in the draft and they’d be lucky to be an 8th seed and bounced out in the first round.

    3. Chins up lads! We’ve lost the last 11 games we’ve been within 5 at some point in the last 5 minutes. That means we’re due! Right?

    4. I mean in the previous comebacks the Knicks never took the lead. This time they did. Now that’s improvement. SOL.

    5. Silly exercise:

      Let’s say three-four years from now, the Knicks are champions. What needs to happen between now and then?

    6. Let’s say three-four years from now, the Knicks are champions. What needs to happen between now and then?

      The western states to fall into the ocean.

    7. Let’s say three-four years from now, the Knicks are champions. What needs to happen between now and then?

      The 2015 lottery pick would have to turn out to be a superstar. Some of the other 2nd round pick type guys like Thanasis and Early would have to develop into useful rotation players. Cap space would have to be used wisely to acquire good two-way players. Fisher would have to figure out how to coach, or some competent coach would have to be hired.

      The Knicks are in a hole because of Mega Max Melo and the lack of a 2016 first round pick that was used to acquire one of the most consistently awful players in the NBA, and they are once again trapped in “win now” mode when they are very, very far away from “winning now,” so I think the best we can hope for is an ascent to middling contender status for a year or two with the whole thing crashing and burning in the last couple years of MMM’s contract. At that point Phil will say “fuck it” and retire, and Jimmy D will hire a sycophant to do his bidding and build the team around the next generation of mediocre-efficiency volume scorers.

    8. @5 all the other teams die in plane crashes? (I know, bad taste)

      Unfortunately, that would not work. One team would have to stay alive to play against.

    9. Let’s say three-four years from now, the Knicks are champions. What needs to happen between now and then?

      Step One: Melo demands to be traded.

    10. Step One: Melo demands to be traded.

      This will happen. It’s only a question of whether it happens this year or next year. It will start with “Melo doesn’t like the triangle” stories leaked by his branding team.

    11. Yeah, just to echo what everyone else is saying I’d say the most likely path is trade Melo for at least one more high level draft pick and hit a homerun with that one as well. Even then it’s very, very unlikely and the timeframe would probably be more like 5-6 years than 3-4 years. But the two big things are we need to draft a top-5 player in the league type with the top pick we have coming, and we need to find a 2nd one somewhere. The way he’s playing this year I just can’t see Melo being that player by the time Okafor (or whoever, but I’m very partial to Okafor) is ready. So deal Melo is definitely part of the plan.

      Anyway I came here to say that Amare has proclaimed theat the Atlantic division is still wide open guys! We’re only 11.5 back! To be honest though if the season ends up mirroring the individual games we’ll end up going on a huge run once it’s already too late and coming up just short of the playoffs. Honestly, I think this could happen – we’re bad but still significantly better than our record, eventually we’ll win some of these close games through shear dumb luck, and we should improve as the team adapts to the system…which is why we should be making a trade to get worse ASAP. Lets not undo all the good ping-pong ball work we have already put in.

    12. I can’t blame Melo for asking and getting the cash. What is annoying is that he should have driven to the hoop on the last Knicks possession and Fish is still learning (heck he is so placid he can’t even call a timeout on some games) and should show some emotion by yelling at stupid plays.

      Any chance of adding an archive link to the glory year of 54 wins?

    13. Melo gets traded for two quality assets, we hit big in the draft, use our cap space intelligently in the free agent market for the first time since…….

      Trade Melo first….

    14. @15 I haven’t seen highlights of the game. But I can only imagine that Melo remembered the traveling call in the cleveland game and figured not to risk it. Idk. I haven’t seen it tho

    15. Its going to be interesting to see when/if the Knicks start trading some of their players this season. This team sucks but they arent this bad and if they dont make any trades that makes the team worse they will probably eventually go on a decent run and finish close enough to the 8th seed that their lottery pick drops out of the Top 5.

    16. from the NY Times

      With a disheartening loss to the Hornets, the Knicks took one step closer to lottery relevance.

      Given the expectations I now have for this season after a quarter of it is done, this is almost an oxymoron.

    17. I suppose if you told me that in 4 years the Knicks win a title but don’t tell me how, I’d guess that they draft Okafor in 2014 and he develops as quickly as as Tim Duncan did, and they trade Melo for a package of assets that include a young and competent PG, and that Kevin Durant comes to NY in 2016.

      The odds of this happening are small, but there is a realistic path that is worth following.

    18. Mathematics oriented people tend to be resistant to this kind of thinking, but IMO winning and losing is part mental and psychological. There are guys that toughen up mentally, don’t make stupid errors, don’t choke under pressure, and perform above their mean when the game is on the line. There are also guys that react poorly to pressure. It leads to stress, physical stiffness, mental cloudiness, and it seems like they practically go out of their way to find a way to lose. I believe people are somewhat hot wired from early in life to be either winners or losers!

      Sure, young and inexperienced guys can mature and become “winners” with seasoning, but usually you can see what a guy is fairly quickly.

      Guys like Melo, JR, and it pains me to say Amare are LOSERS. Hell, most every player on the team is a loser. Yea, sure, the Knicks aren’t very talented and on most night they lose because the other team is simply better, but they are NOT getting beat on a lot of these nights. They are L O S I N G !

      I’m not sure there’s a single player on this team capable of having a major role on a championship team. I’ll leave a little room for the young players, but the rest of them are all mentally weak losers.

    19. Melo gets traded for two quality assets, we hit big in the draft, use our cap space intelligently in the free agent market for the first time since…….

      Trade Melo first….

      It was an idiotic move to get him to begin with.

      It was an idiotic move to resign him given that Chicago probably would have been open to a S&T.

      It couldn’t be more obvious that trading him now is the right thing to do.

      The problem is that it’s not going to happen because most GMs, owners, fans, and the media judge players primarily by their ability to create and make tough shots, their athleticism, and their PPG instead of their overall contribution on both sides of the court and in in terms of scoring efficiency. There are models (and results) that demonstrate that Melo is not that good. But everyone still thinks he’s a super star that just needs some help instead of looking at how little he seems to benefit the teams he’s on and how little a team like Denver was impacted when they lost him. On a net basis, IMO he’s a mildly above average low basketball IQ player. If he was the 3rd or 4th player on the team making 8M-10M he’d be fine, but he can’t be the centerpiece of a serious contender. That’s almost comical, but most people are still so entrenched in their thinking about what makes a player good and how to measure it, they still can’t see it.

    20. Denver dint lose Melo. They traded him for a haul of players.

      This revisionist history of his career is hilarious tho. Keep it going. The loser who made the playoffs every year in the tough ass west lol.

      Prime kg prime Duncan prime kobe teams Prime amare and Nash

    21. Melo has been the most unfairly judged player I have ever seen besides early Lebron and Tmac. Every other golden boy has an excuse when they don’t win. Kevin Love, Anthony Davis, Kevin durant, James harden. it’s quite interesting

    22. Denver dint lose Melo. They traded him for a haul of players.

      Denver traded him for a haul of players that amounted to 1 legitimate starter (Gallo) and some good role players off the bench (Chandler, Mozgov, and Felton). They started Chandler some, but no one I know thinks he’s any more than a good bench player. Denver immediately got better and the Knicks immediately got worse (or at best stayed the same for the rest of that season). That suggested that Melo’s value was not much greater than Gallo’s at the time (which is what some models suggested).

      When the Knicks added Kidd and Chandler (which some models predicted would make them much better) they got really good. Melo got the credit. When Kidd retired because he got old at the end of that year, they got worse (just as some models predicted). When Chandler was moved they got even worse (just as some models predicted). They still have Melo, but now they stink. Are you seeing the pattern here?

      People are incredibly resistant to changing their views on things like this because you have to mentally admit that you’ve been looking at the game the wrong way for years. It took me quite awhile. But the evidence is quite significant that Melo is not a particularly valuable player. It’s supported by professional gamblers I know whose models say as much.

    23. Its going to be interesting to see when/if the Knicks start trading some of their players this season. This team sucks but they arent this bad and if they dont make any trades that makes the team worse they will probably eventually go on a decent run and finish close enough to the 8th seed that their lottery pick drops out of the Top 5.

      That’s the thing – If PJ starts trading players that are undervalued because of the knicks dismal record (it can’t be Fisher’s fault), he can make things worse than they are.

    24. If Chicago and Melo were open to S&T and Jackson didn’t do it, it’s on him not on Melo.

      Looking at the past 20 years champs, it’s easy to see that Melo isn’t at a championship centerpiece level. This is the list of the best and 2nd best players on each team:

      94 — Olajuwon, then Thorp? Cassel? Hory? Maxwell?
      95 — Olajuwon, Drexler
      96, 97, 98 — Jordan, Pippen
      99 — Duncan, Robinson
      00, 01, 02 — Shaq, Kobe
      03 — Duncan, Ginobili
      04 — Ben Wallace (in my opinion) , Billups
      05 — Duncan, Ginobili
      06 — Wade, Shaq
      07 — Duncan, Parker
      08 — Garnett, Pierce
      09, 10 — Kobe, Gasol
      11 — Nowitzki , Chandler
      12, 13 — Lebron, Wade
      14 — Duncan? Leonard? Parker? Ginobili? Popovic?

      Out of all the A players in this list it could be argued that Melo is maybe as good as Nowitzki. I guess people may argue about Wallace as well, but Big Ben was insanely dominant that year.

      As for the 2nd best players, Melo is probably as good as, or better than anyone of the Rockets not named Olajuwon, Drexler (past his prime in 1994), Ginobili, Pierce, Billups, Parker, Chandler (arguable, in my mind.)

      In other words he can be the 2nd best player on a championship team, but it’s highly unlikely he’ll ever be the centerpiece, especially now that he’s in his 30’s.

    25. Mathematics oriented people tend to be resistant to this kind of thinking, but IMO winning and losing is part mental and psychological. There are guys that toughen up mentally, don’t make stupid errors, don’t choke under pressure, and perform above their mean when the game is on the line. There are also guys that react poorly to pressure. It leads to stress, physical stiffness, mental cloudiness, and it seems like they practically go out of their way to find a way to lose. I believe people are somewhat hot wired from early in life to be either winners or losers!

      Sure, young and inexperienced guys can mature and become “winners” with seasoning, but usually you can see what a guy is fairly quickly.

      Guys like Melo, JR, and it pains me to say Amare are LOSERS. Hell, most every player on the team is a loser. Yea, sure, the Knicks aren’t very talented and on most night they lose because the other team is simply better, but they are NOT getting beat on a lot of these nights. They are L O S I N G !

      I’m not sure there’s a single player on this team capable of having a major role on a championship team. I’ll leave a little room for the young players, but the rest of them are all mentally weak losers.

      Conceptually, I agree with what you’re saying, but I think it’s even bigger than the players – the Losing has become the team/organization’s culture.

    26. It was an idiotic move to get him to begin with.

      It was an idiotic move to resign him given that Chicago probably would have been open to a S&T.

      It couldn’t be more obvious that trading him now is the right thing to do.

      The problem is that it’s not going to happen because most GMs, owners, fans, and the media judge players primarily by their ability to create and make tough shots, their athleticism, and their PPG instead of their overall contribution on both sides of the court and in in terms of scoring efficiency. There are models (and results) that demonstrate that Melo is not that good. But everyone still thinks he’s a super star that just needs some help instead of looking at how little he seems to benefit the teams he’s on and how little a team like Denver was impacted when they lost him. On a net basis, IMO he’s a mildly above average low basketball IQ player. If he was the 3rd or 4th player on the team making 8M-10M he’d be fine, but he can’t be the centerpiece of a serious contender. That’s almost comical, but most people are still so entrenched in their thinking about what makes a player good and how to measure it, they still can’t see it.

      Great post!!!

    27. @26 i don’t know if you played. But styles make fights. The nuggs had an up and down style that made them successful. That style does not mean one player is better than another. At the apex the nuggs won 3 more games than Melos best season there. So yes Melo sucks and denver is awesome

    28. Eh. Dont really agree with anyone but Eyal. Melo isnt going to be traded, that much is clear. And why trade him now, when his value is low?

      He should be the second best player on the team. He isn’t a mentally tough leader like the others on the list. If you had a young, dominant, tough player (a la early Garnett) and a well balanced team of two way intelligent players, the culture would change. And we would be a dominant team.

      By the way, I disagree with anyone saying Melo is Loser or not clutch, etc. First, it reeks of nbcsports stupid rhetoric. But he plays tough, busts his ass, and I have never seen anything other than good effort from him. But he ain’t no leader, no culture changer, and does NOT make his teammates better. We need someone that does.

    29. Step 1:
      James Dolan goes senile and makes racist comments. The NBA forces Dolan to sell the team.

    30. If Chicago and Melo were open to S&T and Jackson didn’t do it, it’s on him not on Melo.

      Unquestionably!

      I don’t blame Melo for wanting to play in NY or trying to get as much money as he can. I think in his own mind he’s a similar caliber player to James, Durant, CP3, healthy Howard and Wade etc… and wants to win a title in NY. He, the fans, Jackson, and everyone in the NY media will keep rationalizing away all the evidence that suggests otherwise.

      As much as a like Hahn and Szcerbiak they think (or at least publicly think) Melo is a superstar for all the reasons I described above. He can create his own shot, make tough shots, and score a lot of points. They are no closer to understanding his value now than when the trade went down.

    31. i don’t know if you played. But styles make fights. The nuggs had an up and down style that made them successful. That style does not mean one player is better than another. At the apex the nuggs won 3 more games than Melos best season there. So yes Melo sucks and denver is awesome

      You are “rationalizing”.

      You are giving Melo the credit for the best Nuggets team even though some models say other players had significant value in order to justify your view that he’s a superstar and at the same time ignoring the clearer evidence that he doesn’t have a lot of value based on the trade and the current state of the Knicks.

      Just look what happens to other teams when James and Durant are hurt, traded, or leave.

      Do you think sending Gallo and Chandler to the old Cavs, Miami or OKC would have kept those teams as serious contenders?

      Denver got BETTER!

      Obviously, I’m not going to convince you, but the evidence is there.

    32. No I’m not rationalizing I’m just saying that there is no way that you can say that just because u replaced 2 players with 4 rotation players you can’t make a judgement about 1 of the players.

      Billups was old and they got rid of him to let Lawson shine which he has.

      So you upgrade at starting pg and replace the sf with two good players in Gallo and Chandler. Draft faried and add kofus and mozgof.

      They play well and jell. Idk how that can be a reflection on one player

    33. Why is it that we don’t focus on the context of good players? Putting a bunch of guys together with great WP or per 36 etc does not necessarily make a good team. Could it be that the Nuggets got better by shifting the proportionality of shooting, passing, rebounding, defense, etc., to a more balanced equation? Could it be that the Knicks can win with Melo, but not without a better balance of players?

    34. don’t forget George Karl is a good coach

      George Karl repeatedly said that for Melo to win at the next level he’d have to be less “sticky”.
      Melo seems to be trying harder to be “great” than to win.

    35. as of today, top 20 assists, predominantly pg or sg, except for the person at fifth spot.. lbj.

      thoughts on rondo-melo pairing? one likes to dish, the other likes to score.

      btw, at least bulls v warriors game today could be fun basketball to watch

    36. Pistons lost at home to the 76ers and are now 3-17. Helluva battle for the bottom 3 spots in the East standings.

    37. Melo has been the most unfairly judged player I have ever seen besides early Lebron and Tmac. Every other golden boy has an excuse when they don’t win. Kevin Love, Anthony Davis, Kevin durant, James harden. it’s quite interesting

      This is why you don’t judge players by how their 15 man roster does. People who criticize Melo don’t do so because he hasn’t won a championship (those that do aren’t engaging in smart criticism, anyway), they do so because for the vast majority of his career he’s been a medicore-efficiency volume scorer without many tertiary skills to speak of. The same is not true for any of the guys you listed.

    38. I would agree but a lot DO criticize because of team success. Derrick Rose is of similar effeciency and is not criticized or called a loser.

    39. I criticize Derrick Rose all the time. He was an awful, awful pick for MVP in 2011 and has never really been an elite player (although he’s known as a good defender and is obviously a human highlight reel, when healthy).

    40. I’m curious. How many people here believe George Karl? That is, how many believe that Melo could be a much better player if he made some tweaks that were more geared toward team productivity, like being less “sticky?” Personally, I think it’s nuts. Of course you flail around and try to coach ’em up, because why not, but the window is just really, really narrow for Melo or Dantley or English or a whole lot of gusy. Melo has some Elite skills but he is not a new approach away from being a .600 TS% guy with 6 asst/36 because he channels Larry Bird or Dirk or whomever. He is just a guy with some elite skills which don’t turn out make him an elite basketball player in the NBA, and that’s who he was always going to be. Forget the Bill Simmons bs narrative. You put Jordan’s personality in Iverson or Kobe and you get…Iverson and Kobe. You take a personality with some similarities to Melo and put it in a body that is an elite NBA player and you get Shaq, while you take Bird’s personality and put it into someone not quite as good and you get Ewing. The best thing Karl could have done for Melo was have him shooting way more 3s, and that is also what the Knicks should be doing with him right now, tank excepted. Nothing else is going to make him more efficient or a different player on offense.

      I’ll grant that he probably has a closer avenue to being a less bad defender, but I doubt in any way that would make a difference. I think it is mostly a coincidence that Melo sometimes has the personality of a caricatured Entourage diva, it doesn’t really matter to his production. If Iverson had Jordan’s body and thus results people would have said he had the best makeup in the history of team sports. Danny Granger is basically Kevin Garnett inside a body with some really elite skills that just don’t happen to translate into NBA greatness.

    41. I would agree but a lot DO criticize because of team success. Derrick Rose is of similar effeciency and is not criticized or called a loser.

      I would certainly agree that Derrick Rose was overrated when he won the MVP, but the irony of you citing that example is not lost on me. He won that year because his teammates (with help from Rose himself, of course) saw to it that the Bulls were one of the best teams in the league. If anything, Derrick Rose is a great example of why you shouldn’t use team success to evaluate individual players.

    42. @46 yes you have and you’ve been fairly consistent.
      @49 right.

      If you replace Melo with mike dunleavy on last years Bulls team how would he be viewed as a player? All Melos flaws remain and he would be looked upon favorably because his team would be complete all around.

      If you replace Melo with james harden and they lost to Portland with Dwight Howard on the team he would be crushed nationally

    43. During Carmelo’s last two seasons in Denver, Karl asked him to camp out at the weak side corner (in some sets) so he could hoist uncontested 3s. Carmelo rebelled. Karl was far from oblivious to Carmelo’s value as a long distance shooter.

    44. A bit off topic but I can’t shake the feeling that our 2015 starting line-up is going to feature Rajon Rondo and/or Greg Monroe…

      I initially had a pretty optimistic POV on PJax but none of his moves so far have worked out, unless we’re actually just tanking the season, which I’m ok with.

    45. PJ is getting the benefit of the doubt because he’s PJ.
      The Melo contract was terrible.
      Jose Calderon is good, but Tyson Chandler is very good. I thought PJ’s forte was working with big egos, getting everyone on board.
      His coaching selection and offensive scheme, so far, so bad.
      4-17

      At what point does PJ become accountable?

    46. At what point does PJ become accountable?

      When he’s had more than one off-season and some actual room to maneuver.

      Look, I get the need to bash someone because the Knicks suck, but we were always going to suck this season. And you’re right, the guy who won 11 championships (13 if you count his playing years) is going to get a much longer leash because…well do I really need to spell it out for you?

      Fish has coach a grand total of 20 games. Plus, it’s not his fault if he can’t find winning roster combinations with this team. We don’t have any winning combinations. This season is a bust, was always going to be a bust, and now that it’s actually busting just as expected (ok, maybe a little worse than expected, but not that much), people want to raise the pitchforks and storm the gates.

      Well, if that’s your thing then go for it I guess. But if you truly expected more out of this team this season (something more meaningful than 3 or 4 more wins), then you were always setting yourself up for some serious disappointment.

      For me, I’m just listening to the glorious sound of ping pong balls and I’m giving both Jackson and Fisher a pass for this season. This season was always more about the two of them getting more comfortable in their respective roles and instituting a new system/culture. That takes more than 20 games to do.

    47. The Melo contract was terrible.
      Jose Calderon is good, but Tyson Chandler is very good. I thought PJ’s forte was working with big egos, getting everyone on board.
      His coaching selection and offensive scheme, so far, so bad.

      Chandler is 32, making 14.6M. He has one year left, so he could have stayed for a bit. But, I’d sacrifice THIS year by losing our defensive stalwart for one year, in order to lose Felton, acquire a top shooting PG, a young prospect PG, an acceptable defensive-minded C, and two picks. Come on. If you thought that Chandler was in any way good for our future, fine. But I’d disagree. This was clearly to get younger and to move as much of our cast as possible.

      I’ll wait a bit for Fisher to get acclimated, and to get better players. Not sure Pop or Thibs would do much with what we have. (But I do think they’d do better.)

      As for the Melo deal- I don’t know how many players you think are better than him. That would make for a great discussion, actually. And I have a nagging suspicion that he would be an amazing fit on a team when he is not the best player (remember how he played both times in the Olympics?) Also, this deal may be quite OK once the new CBA comes in.

    48. RE: Chandler

      You make a good point. If we had traded Chandler on a new 4 year contract, or even 3 year, it would have been a bad trade. But I think we’re all in agreement that Chandler wasn’t staying past his current contract. So we got something for him rather than let him walk for nothing.

      Could we have swung a better deal with a different team? Maybe, but that would depend on what other teams were willing to deal for him. As far as I’m concerned we got something for nothing really, as even with Chandler this wasn’t going to be anything other than a first round knockout team.

    49. @55

      As for the Melo deal- I don’t know how many players you think are better than him. That would make for a great discussion, actually. And I have a nagging suspicion that he would be an amazing fit on a team when he is not the best player (remember how he played both times in the Olympics?) Also, this deal may be quite OK once the new CBA comes in.

      lol

    50. Phil is candid when he speaks of the league and the players in it, including his own, which is a nice “culture change”; however, his actual plan for building a winner has been vague, outside of changing culture and installing the triangle. When Walsh took over the team he stated his two year plan: clear cap space for 2010 while trying to win as many basketball games as possible in the process. It may not have been the best plan, but it was clearly stated and executed.

      Phil is leaving people to wonder whether the Knicks are strategically rebuilding through losing, or if they are simply worse than even the most pessimistic naysayers thought. (And since he has no track record as a team builder to fall back on like Walsh did, I think it’s making people a little nervous that maybe it’s easier to coach Jordan than it is to change culture).

    51. What Khanzy said @54 is spot on. Its hilarious how the media and some fans on this site are criticizing PJ for the start to this season. This team going into this season was most likely going to suck which was fine because they actually have their 1st rd pick in the upcoming draft and most people here were fine with sucking this season. So now that they are sucking (granted its been hard to watch but losing is always hard to watch) its an indictment on PJ. Cant have it both ways.

    52. Don’t we have to wait to see what Larkin, Early, Antetekuompo become in a couple years before we even begin to judge the Chandler trade?

    53. By the way, all of you guys who are trashing Fisher and Jackson — aren’t a lot of you the same guys who say that the Knicks should go into full tank/rebuild mode because Knicks fans are so willing to be patient?

    54. Full tank/rebuild mode wouldve meant letting Melo leave. Tanking this season (or at the very least not giving a shit about winning this season which seems to be the plan somewhat) though should be fine for everyone here. The media is having none of it and who knows what Dolan thinks of this season so far but sucking this season is fine and the best thing that could happen for this franchise.

      Problem is what is most likely gonna happen is they will win enough games that their 1st rd pick will fall out of the top 5 and from what I have read there is a pretty significant drop from the top few picks to the rest of the lottery in this draft. But then again as Knick fans we are used to having bad luck in the lottery and always missing out on our preferred pick lol.

    55. Three points:

      1. Larkin cannot be good and be a Knick next year. Because the Knicks did not exercise their option, he becomes an UFA this offseason, but the Knicks are limited to the salary scale for him. So if he is better than a $2 million player (meaing a rotation player), he will have to move to another team.

      2. Phil Jackson’s first opportunity to make a change this year comes on December 15, when the trade restriction is lifted for most players signed or traded during the past off-season (a few have a restriction until January 15).

      3. As others have pointed out, this season was never expected to be much. First round exit was my prediction. Getting a high draft pick in a stacked draft is a not-horrible outcome.

    56. As Mike Ehrmantraut (RIP) would have said, bringing Melo back here was a half measure. What was needed was a full measure, and signing and trading Melo to the Bulls may have accomplished that. Perhaps Jax could have gotten some combination of Nicola Mirotic, Jimmy Butler and/or picks out of the Bulls. We’ll never know, because he went for the half measure. So the rebuilding plan is once again hamstrung– our building blocks are Melo on a max contract, the 2015 draft pick and… pretty much nothing else. Cap space I guess. It’s really hard to see how Phil is gonna polish this turd into some kind of winner, but time will tell I guess.

    57. @61

      Don’t worry. I don’t take offense that you’re upset. I do like your quickly aggressive tone, though. Soon to go the way of the Italian Stallion and jon abbey, I’m sure…

    58. Wouldn’t giving up Melo make it less likely to attract good players in the future? Isn’t the jump from zero to one star harder than one to two? Or three/four? (Which is what you need to be good.)

      Do we really all think that Melo can’t be one of those two or three great players on a great team? (Assume that next CBA is much better)

    59. @54
      What Khanzy said @54 is spot OFF!
      The entire post reeks of a losers mentality. Perfect for a knicks fan.
      No one thought the knicks would be better than 4-17? Really? The worst start in team history, but EVERYONE knew they’d be even worse? What then, Everyone thought they were going to be 1-20, 2-21, to start the season? That’s what you were expecting? . . . And khanzy has the balls to call someone else a loser?
      Why did Fisher and PJ talk about the close games that the knicks could have won last season and promised to win those games this season and make the playoffs. You mean they intended to lose (phony alibi) and just wanted to jerkoff the fans. Then, why don’t they lose more than Philly or Detroit if that’s the plan?
      And Fisher has no experience, and the knicks have no combinations, and the players suck, and PJ had only one off season, and it’s about them learning their roles, and it’s rally about ping pong balls, blah blah blah.
      All I asked was “At what point does PJ become accountable?” and you got a million excuses.
      You are not one to be calling anyone else a loser.

    60. @70

      It was me calling jowles a loser…

      And in response, what do you think PJ should have done differently, and how many wins would that make?

      Then tell me if those wins even matter.

      Someone please remind me to recound the story of Pop’s early days with the Spurs and how close he was to getting canned.

    61. sucking this season is fine and the best thing that could happen for this franchise.

      Any franchise that’s not in the playoffs would be better off having the highest pick possible. So, should half the league try to tank every season? Truth is, teams don’t have to hit rock bottom to become refortified.
      And just because the knicks are sucking worse than ever, the new apologist narrative is “that’s the plan”. Bullshit. It’s a phony alibi for an organization that hasn’t yet proven it’s taken it’s head out of it’s ass. And don’t blame Dolan. Not on him (unless he pushed the new Melo deal, in which case the whole thing is a friggin joke).

    62. And in response, what do you think PJ should have done differently, and how many wins would that make?

      Then tell me if those wins even matter.

      So, why don’t they just take the season off. Or if the plan is to lose every game (phony alibi) why don’t we just turn on World Wide Wrestling?

      The benefits of sucking to the max are obvious. But, I think teams should try their best and improve as much as possible while building a foundation of success. And an argument can be made that it’s an easier route to the top. For starters, a lot of players don’t want to come to a perennial loser, and it’s extremely difficult to turn on a dime from crap to fantastic unless you’re really stacked with talent.

    63. Who’s talking about that? The truth is that we are waiting for next off-season’s free agency, the next draft, the trades in between, and waiting for our drafted players to improve. I don’t get how fast people want PJ to win. And for everyone involved to get used to their roles, PJ and Fisher included.

      I was the first to say the other night that the Knicks are playing crap D, rebound worth crap, and can’t pass for crap. Crappy team.

      But I’m not ready to burn down this regime because we’re 20 games in and not winning. Come on.

    64. . . . And khanzy has the balls to call someone else a loser?

      You are not one to be calling anyone else a loser.

      Do me a favor and go back and re-read my post. Let me know where you find me calling anyone a loser (or really insulting anyone for that matter). I’ll wait…

      …Re-read it? Good. Can’t find where I said that, right?

      You need to relax buddy. No sense getting all uppity on a sports fan blog, you just look silly.

      I’ll tell you what’s

      Perfect for a knicks fan.

      Throwing a hissy fit because the plan to retool and reload in a couple of years isn’t going a perfectly as you dreamed it would. Your lack of patience and furious desire to fire everyone and everybody and start all over (again) only half a year into it is exactly why we get ourselves stuck in “win now” mode when we’re not close to winning. It’s that lack of patience that others point to when they say Knick fans aren’t patient enough for a rebuild, as Johnno pointed out in #64.

    65. What’s really depressing about this team is that it doesn’t develop any young players, at least not so far. Losing can be OK as long as you can see a plan in action. A Michael Carter Williams. An Embiid coming up. If we thought any of Tanacity, Early, Cole, Acy, Shump, TH2, or Wear would become a player the whole season would have looked differently. But like this? Yuck.

    66. I don’t think it was the plan going in to lose like this. However, once Calderon got hurt and the crap hit the fan then I do think they pulled the plug quickly on the season. The reason I think that is that I don’t see body language from Fisher, Melo or PJ (the only 3 people that matter besides Dolan) that says that this is turning out far below expectations or that the house is on fire. I for one believe that you can rebuild around either Melo, a top 3-5 pick, $35M in cap room in 2015 plus another major amount in 2016 (dependent on what they do w the 2015 $) OR a Melo trade plus the same set of circumstances. The Melo sign and trade deal isn’t gone. They just haven’t done the trade part yet and now he has to agree which he will if it’s to a place like Chicago, LA or Miami or a team on the verge and the Knicks go young. The one thing this team has is plenty of flexibility starting on Dec 15 and that includes a very tradeable asset.

    67. I will say man that Bargs trade and the 2016 pick. I mean that is a disaster at this point but that’s not on Phil.

    68. The Knicks are in a good position to suck, people. They have a draft pick, two above average veterans in Calderon and Melo, and cap space. If you add Jahlil Okafor and Jimmy Butler to that group this summer, your team looks worlds better. It’s not like 10 years ago when we were sucking with no cap space or draft picks.

    69. “It’s not like 10 years ago when we were sucking with no cap space or draft picks.”

      You mean like the 2014-2015 Brooklyn Nets?

    70. You mean like the 2014-2015 Brooklyn Nets?

      Zing!

      Karl Anthony Towns IMO has the higher upside and before the season started was the guy I was liking for the Knicks pick but how could they pass up on Okafor if they get the chance at selecting him. Comparisons to Duncan?! Is that even possible.

    71. But I’m not ready to burn down this regime because we’re 20 games in and not winning. Come on.

      No one ever said anything like that. I think you guys are arguing against nobody.
      blockquote>
      Your lack of patience and furious desire to fire everyone and everybody and start all over (again) only half a year
      I apologize for saying you called someone a loser. It was someone else. But, I think it’s time for you to re-read the thread. No one said anything about giving up or firing this regime.
      That doesn’t mean that if the knicks go 12-70 that there’s no accountability and everything is going perfectly as planned. Every year or two, the excuse is, wait for another year to two. How many times do you have to hear that before you become an idiot for believing (it’s been going on for about fifteen years now).

    72. How many times do you have to hear that before you become an idiot for believing (it’s been going on for about fifteen years now).

      While this is true, and I won’t argue against it, it should be noted that this is the first time we’ve had someone in charge who:

      A) Seemingly knows how championship teams are made

      and

      B) was willingly chosen by Dolan, rather than being forced upon him

      Given these two things, I personally think a little patience is indeed warranted. Without those two things, it wouldn’t be. Say, for example, Mills was GM or President with Houston being GM then I’d be right there with you. Think about that. We could have Steve Mills and Allan Houston in charge of everything. We don’t. For that, at least, I’m grateful and willing to give Phil/Fish at least a year before I start losing my patience. I’d suggest you think about doing the same.

    73. We don’t know Jackson’s plan. IMO the only move Jackson has made that could possibly be applied to make some kind of judgment on how he plans to rebuild was opting out of Larkin’s contract, and while that scared me, it’s hardly damning.

      You can read the Chandler trade as Jackson pursuing a veteran point guard and undervaluing Chandler’s talent, or Jackson desiring to get out of Felton’s contract and get younger while picking up some second picks, with Calderon only in the deal to make the salaries work.

      You can read the Melo contract as Jackson loving Melo and wanting to keep him at any cost due to a larger belief that the Knicks can rebuild on the fly, or you can read it as Jackson simply not getting the offers he wanted and recognizing that he would have more leverage come December, when some teams that intended to compete would surely disappoint and would feel more pressure to compete.

    74. Melo should get every single freaking touch in the post. So much better and efficient then when he gets it 20ft from the basket facing up which unfortunately happens all the time. Thats one thing Ive been disappointed in with the triangle, i thought there would be alot more of Melo in the post.

    75. What’s our preferred way of losing tonight? Get blown out in the 2nd half, or a heartbreaking loss on a Lillard 3 pointer at the buzzer?

    76. face the facts… this team will never be on the road to recovery until melo’s contract is moved or it expires… marc gasol, a rookie, jimmy butler, or whomever, is not making us a contender unless we got all 3… we’ve been retooling for 8 to 14 years depending on how you look at it… ive lost all hope…

      solid game tonight thus far though, cant complain at this very moment… or did i just do that?

    77. is the game blacked out on league pass for everyone else?

      I’m in Tampa and am watching it without any issues. Not sure where you live, but if it’s in NY it would be blacked out.

    78. Just happened to flip to the Pistons-Thunder game on NBA TV, Pistons down by 2, get the defensive rebound with about 9 seconds left, Jennings races it up the court, gets all the way to the basket and…… throws it out to J Smoove for a 3 point brick. Game over.

      I think Stan Van Gundy is about to burst multiple blood vessels.

    79. at 97… i live in South Jersey, and I’m never blacked out here on LP… its giving me lip tonight that I should be watching on MSG… i tried on laptop and gametime app… no dice… and the Home audio is def. not Home audio… all f’d up…

    80. at 97… i live in South Jersey, and I’m never blacked out here on LP… its giving me lip tonight that I should be watching on MSG… i tried on laptop and gametime app… no dice… and the Home audio is def. not Home audio… all f’d up…

      I had a similar issue at the start of the season. Typically, Orlando games are blacked out for me because my area gets their local sports station. However, for some weird reason Washington games were being blacked out instead of Orlando ones.

      I submitted several tickets but never got a response. The issue eventually either resolved itself or they fixed it and never told me.

    81. dang it… first time this is happening… i watched hornets game in all its glory the other night… :-(

    82. There are Numerous weBsites where you cAn watch the games for free. The quality is sub par and I don’t normally advocate theSe sorts of Things, but if the seRvice you’rE pAying for isn’t working because of a probleM on their end, then all’s fair game.

      I Certainly wOn’t post a link because I suspect I Might get banned, but it’s not hard to find.

    83. Aldridge is, in Clyde’s words, “unflappable.”

      Knicks, however, are very flappable.

      Flap, flap, flap.

    84. Its sad when the best thing to talk about during Knick games is how hot Tina Cervasio looks lol.

    85. “Its sad when the best thing to talk about during Knick games is how hot Tina Cervasio looks lol.”

      What about the Kars for Kids ad?

      Got to say, I turned the television on and the first thing I heard was “Where is JR Smith.” Expected the worst.

      But been pleasantly surprised so far.

      It will end in tears no doubt….

    86. Melo with his usual once a game wince

      Almost every time he goes into the paint! It’s a pretty safe bet that he tweaks something if he ends the play with a layup/dunk.

    87. If the Knicks can keep playing entertaining games at home and eventually lose, I think that fits our new plan perfectly

    88. Is there something wrong with me that I actually look forward to all these games just to see how the Knicks blow it in the end??

    89. Well, I can’t complain. Decent effort against a very good team.

      That offensive rebound from Lopez was irritating.

      Aldridge is more Melo than Melo these days, carrying the flag for the mid-range jumper and actually making it seem like a plausible strategy….

    90. Damn, Detroit lost tonight, we’re still 1/2 game ahead of them.

      On the bright side, we’re only 1 game up on Philly!

    91. Oh, and thanks kahnzy.

      IP address was identifying with Trenton… But I live 30 miles south…. Something’s amiss

    92. I read a stat before the game that the Knicks actually average 1 more made FG per game than their opponents and tonight they made 5 more FG than the Blazers but the discrepancy in FT’s and 3pters made is too much for the Knicks to overcome.

    93. Over the last 10 games, the Knicks have made more 3 pointers than their opponents and have held their opponents to 30 percent shooting on 3s. They really have tightened things up defending 3s. The FT differential is a big problem–they’re last in the league by a lot in getting to the line.

    94. Robin Lopez is so shitty for Portland because he can’t space the floor. Imagine how good they’d be with Bargnani at the five.

    95. Sorry for the lack of game thread, folks. I am on vacation in Savannah, GA but I still should have realized that there was a game today and managed to get a thread up in advance. My apologies. It sounds like a decent game, at least! This team is starting to get closer and closer to winning a game.

    96. By the way, we don’t allow personal insults of other posters. As we’ve shown in the past, we will ban people over it. So just don’t do it.

    97. was willingly chosen by Dolan, rather than being forced upon him

      I think Phil was forced upon him. It went something like this-

      Irving Azoff: “If you want to open for the Eagles, you better fucking hire Phil Jackson first.”

    98. Derek Fisher got a call from upstairs during a timeout:

      Caller: “Fish, leave Jason Smith in during crunch time”

      Fisher: “But…but… he’s terrible, we have no chance to win with him on the floor”

      Caller: “Exactly”

    99. This year we have a backup Bargs for when the real Bargs is hurt and can’t generate ping pong balls for us. It’s good to have depth.

    100. saw highlights of celts v wizards game, Rondo can pass!

      btw, Jason Smith can leap 3 inches, that last Knicks play was atrocious and why does Melo wince when he drives?

      Fisher must tell this team to go to the lane more, all these jump shots are frustrating

    101. Brian,
      I called Jowles a big fat loser. I meant it extremely tongue and cheek, and meant it to come off humorously. If that’s illegal here, I guess I’ll abide.

    102. Next time I might suggest something like, “You’re just a big fat loser, as only a loser would accurately predict the Knicks’ failure to make the playoffs last year,” as it will suggest that you know and respect my authority on matters of roundball.

    103. “Thank you, horseradish, for being neither a radish nor a horse. What you are is a liar food.”
      – Jimmy Fallon

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