Knicks Morning News (2014.09.16)

  • [New York Times] For Nets’ Deron Williams, Ankle Operations Provide Reason for Optimism (Tue, 16 Sep 2014 02:43:38 GMT)

    Operations offer a dose of optimism for Nets point guard Deron Williams and his team after the disappointment of last season.

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    47 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2014.09.16)”

    1. Knicks targeted [Curry] and missed by one spot. With all the shitty luck/karma they’ve had, that’s the one that’s gonna hurt the worst.

      Actually, in today’s Forgotten Knicks History, if form had held in the 2008 NBA draft, we would have picked no lower than 5th (Love went 5th, Gallo 6th). Naturally, a team with a 1.7% chance of winning the lottery that year jumped over us and won the top pick. And of course it was the chicago bulls (who used the pick on Rose, one year after taking Noah with our pick).

      It sucked missing Curry, but we would have been very lucky to have gotten him at 8. Missing out on Love was the real stroke of horrible luck.

      I was at both those drafts, by the way. I’ve since stopped going to NBA drafts.

    2. Klay and Love are both known commodities. And it’s been established that Love is a far more valuable player than Klay. Any statistical system you want to pick is going to tell you that Love is, at worst, one of the 15 best players in the NBA.

      I’m not arguing that. My point was that the teams that win championships manage to acquire top 15 talent without giving up important pieces of their core.

      – The Lakers acquiring Gasol
      – The Heat acquiring LeBron & Bosh
      – The Spurs acquiring Leonard and through magnificent late-round drafting
      – The Celtics acquiring KG
      – The Pistons acquiring Rasheed Wallace
      – The Lakers acquiring Shaq

      This goes all the way back to the 80’s, in which the Celtic & Laker dynasties were built on fleecing teams out of Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parrish.

      The only exception I could think of is the Heat trading Butler and Odom for Shaq, and even though he was entering his decline years, it wasn’t that clear at the time, and Shaq was still capable of a few semi-prime Shaq years.

      Teams that make trades in which they give up one of their 2-3 best players for a clearly top 10-15 guy aren’t on the list of championship winners. They comprise a list of very nice NBA teams who never won anything, though.

      It’s just a matter of assets being extremely scarce and waiting for the opportunity to maximize them. I think giving up Klay for Love would have been a very good trade for Golden State. And I don’t think Golden State would be anything more than an entertaining also-ran for the next 4 years.

    3. Klay is at best, a good SG.

      No, Klay at best is the perfect complement to Steph Curry and his all around excellence complements Curry’s skill set so well that it enhances Curry’s offensive capabilities and makes the golden state warriors better in a way the WP or WS/48 is not comprehensive enough to demonstrate.

    4. No, Klay at best is the perfect complement to Steph Curry and his all around excellence complements Curry’s skill set so well that it enhances Curry’s offensive capabilities and makes the golden state warriors better in a way the WP or WS/48 is not comprehensive enough to demonstrate.

      I agree and Klay also consistently defends the opposition PG while the Warriors hid Curry defensively against the opponent’s SG.

      It’s just a matter of assets being extremely scarce and waiting for the opportunity to maximize them. I think giving up Klay for Love would have been a very good trade for Golden State. And I don’t think Golden State would be anything more than an entertaining also-ran for the next 4 years.

      In this regard the mistake was trading away a ton of assets for Iggy believing that would be enough to challenge for the conference.

    5. Klay Thompson (USA)

      He guarded players at three different positions. He was Team USA’s most consistent outside shooter. He also came off the bench in real life for his team.

      He can come off the bench in real life or something. That’s pretty valuable.

    6. Hubert, I generally agree with you. I think where we would disagree is that I don’t think Klay Thompson is a core member of the Warriors. He’s a solid enough player, but he’s replaceable. You can’t replace a guy like Kevin Love or Steph Curry (I mean, yes, you can hypothetically, but it’s really difficult in real life)

    7. In my dreams, Isaiah doesn’t trade lottery picks for Eddy Curry, we get Noah and then Love and Curry in subsequent drafts.

      In real life, we get Eddy Curry and he gets fat, and then we draft Danilo Gallinari and Jordan Hill.

      Real life sucks.

    8. Another thing to keep in mind is the Warriors took a very fair risk, and it was the same risk many wanted the Knicks to take with Melo (i.e. wait til he was a free agent, or only do it if the cost is extremely low). It took the Cavs winning TWO lotteries this summer at extremely long odds for it to blow up in Golden State’s face.

    9. Fair enough, DRed. If I ran GS, I’d want to wait until I could add that top guy to the Klay-Curry combination. I think people are underestimating Klay, and he would prove very difficult to replace.

      The irony is that, in this league, it might be easier to get a top 15 player than an extremely solid 3rd or 4th guy!! The top guys are moving with much more frequency. You either have to draft that quality 3rd/4th piece or luck into a underpriced vet on the MLE.

    10. @1 Hubert–

      1) The Wolves had the #3 pick and wanted Love. They knew they could trade down for him, so they did and got Mike Miller as well. (It also made Love cheaper, being the #5 pick instead of the #3 pick.) There was no chance the Knicks were getting Love (besides, Walsh had targeted Westbrook in the draft, not Love. He DID target Curry in 2009, though).

      2) I think that Curry will end up having a better career than Love.

    11. Nice call, Donnie Walsh. Is almost impossible to believe today that the Timberwolves did something as smart as trade down from #3 (where the Grizz took OJ Mayo) to pick up Mike Miller and still end up with Kevin Love at 5.

    12. Even crazier, they immediately followed the savvy Love/Pekovic draft with the 3 PG let’s take Johnny Flynn instead of Steph Curry disaster of the next season.

    13. @ 13. That is nuts. The Twolves could have drafted Curry, Jennings and Holiday in that draft right? Imagine if they had done that. Could have held on to Curry and traded those other players for some nice pieces. Would be serious contenders at this point.

    14. So SI is doing a ranking of the top 100 players in the league. They’ve done a list of noteable players absent from the top 100 and 100-31 (no Cole yet, so they clearly know what’s up) Anyhow, they had Swaggy P in the list of noteable absences, and the first fucking comment is from a Lakers fan, and it goes a little something like this:
      RickMathews 5 hours ago
      Very poor analysis of Nick Young. He could have made more elsewhere as a number of teams recognized his skills. He will play well with Kobe.

      Is there a more delusional group of sports fans on earth than Lakers fans? All that winning done rot their minds.

    15. How long is it until Cole Aldrich beats Sammy D for the starting center gig?

      Oh, and I think I read somewhere that the salary cap might inflate for the 2015-2016 season to compensate for the future TV deal money? If that’s the case, then we might be able to add Eric Bledsoe and a good PF while keeping Shumpert. A lot to be hoping for right now as a Knicks’ fan.

    16. I agree, massive. It’s a lot to hope that Shumpert starts performing like a player worthy of a post-rookie-contract contract, but the reality is that he’s going to keep bricking layups and behaving like a poor man’s Avery Bradley.

    17. “How good would a Rondo, Shumpert, Melo, Love, Hibbert team be?

      I’ve put my reputation behind the assertion that Melo is going to take a cut to make that kind of team happen in two years.”

      Famous last words. What a difference a year makes.

    18. I think Iman Shumpert will surprise with offensive competence this season. Three point shooting + an ability to finish at the rim, but if not, that’s what TH2 is for and we should move on from Shump.

    19. @18 I agree that this is a make or break year for Shumpert. I’m obviously far more optimistic than you. As to a poor man’s Avery Bradley, and much bigger/longer. I think he’s already better than Avery Bradley. More like a poor man’s Tony Allen.

      Yeah, this is a pivotal, career-defining season season for lots of Knicks. My only hope is that everyone will be given a fair chance, but no more than that. In Fisher and Jackson I trust.

    20. If Shumpert can up his 3 point shooting to a league average level, finish at the rim at around 60% like he did his rookie season and defend on the ball like he’s capable of then he’ll be worth the contract the Knicks would have to give out to keep him. All of those are major question marks however and the jury is out on whether or not he can put it all together.

    21. “How good would a Rondo, Shumpert, Melo, Love, Hibbert team be?

      I’ve put my reputation behind the assertion that Melo is going to take a cut to make that kind of team happen in two years.”

      Famous last words. What a difference a year makes.

      Jesus, the math behind that equation. What did he think Melo was going to do, play for the vet’s minimum?

    22. Hubert, I think Simmons was reporting that if GS did the Love trade, they could have packaged Barnes and a draft pick to Orlando for Affalo. IMO Affalo is as good as Klay or at least 90% of Klay.

    23. I can’t say for sure because I do my best to ignore Bill Simmons, but he’s typically more of a speculator than a reporter.

      Even so, that’s fantasy basketball, i.e. thinking you can just plug in a guy with similar numbers and the team will just keep on humming.

      Golden State is a team that already has a championship caliber defense (they were 4th in DRTG, a mere .2 off of San Antonio). Klay is a huge part of that. You throw Love (an awful defender) in there and replace your best on-the-ball defender with Aaron Afflalo, you’re taking a big step back. And if Afflalo can’t stay in front of the league’s PG’s (which he most likely can’t), who knows what kind of impact it will have on offense if Steph Curry suddenly has to work much harder on the defensive end covering all the best PG’s.

      Look, all I ever meant to say was I think Klay was being undervalued a lot when people (myself included) were chiding the Warriors for not making that trade. The recent FIBA tournament showed me how valuable his on the ball defense is, something I wasn’t keenly aware of.

      I would like to watch more Warriors basketball because I think he and Curry have tremendous synergy together and I can understand why GS was hesitant to break them up.

    24. I think Klay’s defense is getting overrated. He’s not a Shumpert/Butler/Allen type. But he’s a good defender for an elite 3 point shooter.

    25. Wait a minute, someone actually thinks Klay Thompson is in the same category as Kevin Love?

      Klay Thompson is a good young player with upside. Keven Love is already in the top few players n the league despite mediocre defense.

    26. Yes, stratomatic. This is Knickerblogger. Of course someone thinks that Klay Thompson is in the same category as Kevin Love. And of course there is a lurker out there who would argue that Carmelo Anthony is better than Kevin Love. Where, oh where, has he gone?

    27. Wait a minute, someone actually thinks Klay Thompson is in the same category as Kevin Love?

      I don’t actually think anybody said this.

    28. “Where, oh where, has he gone?”

      Aww, does somebody miss his binky? Who the hell cares where he’s gone? We’ve got you posting about him at seemingly every opportunity, so it’s almost like he never left!

    29. Wait a minute, someone actually thinks Klay Thompson is in the same category as Kevin Love?

      Where did you read that? Not on this thread, I’m pretty sure. (I said that I thought Steph Curry would have a better career than Love. That’s the closest anybody came to comparing any Warrior to Love).

    30. Do I need to apply for permission to like Klay Thomson?

      You know what it is (for me)? The current CBA landscape has developed this fucked up league where we’re rooting for economic efficiency and value investing more than basketball sometimes. The best way to build a team is with true max players making max money (which automatically means they’re playing at a discount and are a massive value) and then surrounding them with specialists. A “3 and D” guy, or “a stretch 4”, etc.

      What I like about Klay is he’s just a solid all around player, like a lot of NBA guys used to be when I grew up watching basketball. And now we’ve gotten to the point where that kind of player is the worst player to have on your team. He’s too good to play for the mid-level exception, and paying him market value when his market value is approximately 65% the cost of LeBron James and Kevin Durant makes him a poor investment.

      But still, he’s a really solid basketball player in almost every phase of the game, and sometimes I just like watching/admiring a good basketball player. The Warriors probably should have traded him for Love (OK, fine, they almost definitely should have). BUT! I understand why they wanted to keep this guy, because he’s really good. And my opinion is that he and Curry are more symbiotic than we realize.

    31. I agree with you, Hubert. Klay is not a worldbeater (actually, in the literal sense he is. He’s a fresh minted World Champion for FIBA!) but he’s a good-to-very good player. The problem is that Golden State is (was?) on the verge of becoming a real contender and shied away from that just to hold on him. So he’s going to be seen as overrated by GSW fans as soon as Love gets by averaging 20ppg, 20rpg, 4apg for a week (it will happen. maybe even in the first week). It will end with GSW overpaying him then trading him next year after missing the playoffs (or getting in as the 8th seed and getting trounced by the Clips in the first round) to make him seem the culprit in their botched situation. Atlanta fans, get ready to root for Klay Thompson in the 2015/16 season.

      Did I predict the Clips will win the west? Yes I did.

    32. Clips could definitely win the West. CP3, one of the best big men in the game, and Blake is a great core to build around.

    33. I don’t particularly like the Clippers’ depth.

      The Warriors are positioned interestingly enough and with the potential for Curry and Klay to get blazing hot could beat any team in the league in a series. I just don’t think they’ll be able to win 3 series in the West in the next 2 seasons. After that season though they’ll have major cap space which if they use properly could potentially make them a legitimate contender.

      Depending on Bogut to stay healthy is too risky a proposition IMO though and I like Iggy but not to the point where I think he puts them over the top.

    34. Yeah, the Warriors are a really dangerous team IF they’re all healthy. But that never seems to happen.

    35. I can’t wait ’til the Knicks play the Clips and Bargnani hits the floor.

      “COACH RIVERS, COACH RIVERS. PUT IN YOUR BIG GUYS. BARGNANI IS BIG, MAN.”

    36. Klay Thompson has a slightly below league average PER of 14.3 and only slightly above average WS of 11.2
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html

      Klay Thomspson is ranked 11th among SGs in NBA real +/-
      http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/2

      Klay Thompson is ranked below average on Wins Produced
      http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=klay+thompson

      He’s an average player, but there are skills there that lead one to believe he could still get very good. Right now though, it’s mostly “promise”.

    37. “CP3 isn’t a big man”

      Are you appositive about that?

      ; )

    38. “He’s an average player, but there are skills there that lead one to believe he could still get very good. Right now though, it’s mostly “promise”.”

      Wait, are we still talking about Thompson? Or Shumpert? Or Bargnani? Or Eddy Curry?

    39. Thompson is a good defender, surprisingly athletic and a crafty finisher, with one of the quickest releases in the game. He’s also a talented passer.

      But he has bad shot selection and is undersized, and from what I’ve seen doesnt show much interest in rebounding.

      Dean Oliver told us that back when he was working in front offices, teams had proprietary analytical programs based on internal statistical metrics.

      How much it/those are relied on in the decision making process is at the discretion of the general manager and owner, and many are meatheads.

      I think Thompson provides value that is not captured by WP/WS/POP/PER et al, but that is purely speculation on my behalf, and we don’t need to go back into the flaws of the aforementioned metrics.

      And I’ve never said Melo was better than Love.

    40. And I’ve never said Melo was better than Love

      Wow, so some posters here managed to out-ruru ruru.

    41. ruruland’s roundball politics have become startlingly moderate

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