Knicks Morning News (2014.07.16)

  • [New York Daily News] Carmelo Anthony’s Knicks contract has no-trade clause (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 03:18:44 GMT)

    Carmelo Anthony just might be the most powerful figure inside Madison Square Garden. With the exception of MSG Chairman James Dolan, of course.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Less money is more for Melo, Knicks in '15 (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 01:37:17 EDT)

    Carmelo Anthony’s contract with the Knicks is worth $124 million over five years, sources told ESPN New York. That’s $5 million less than the maximum. Here’s what that discount means for the Knicks: A little more $ to spend in 2015: Carmelo’s contract starts at the maximum salary of $22.458 million. League sources told ESPN New York that Anthony’s contract will increase “slightly” in the second year but less than the maximum increase of 7.5 percent.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Less money is more for Melo, Knicks in '15 (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 01:37:17 EDT)

    Carmelo Anthony’s contract with the Knicks is worth $124 million over five years, sources told ESPN New York. That’s $5 million less than the maximum. Here’s what that discount means for the Knicks: A little more $ to spend in 2015: Carmelo’s contract starts at the maximum salary of $22.458 million. League sources told ESPN New York that Anthony’s contract will increase “slightly” in the second year but less than the maximum increase of 7.5 percent.

  • [New York Times] Griner Dunks Again as Mercury Beat Mystics 90-78 (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 04:47:17 GMT)

    With a spark from Brittney Griner, in the form of her second dunk of the year, the Phoenix Mercury continued on its roll.

  • [New York Times] Silver: No Guarantee Sterling Out by Season Start (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 03:14:12 GMT)

    Eyebrow-raising testimony, abrupt changes of plans, courtroom delays. If there is one thing NBA Commissioner Adam Silver has learned during the Donald Sterling saga, it’s that there are no guarantees.

  • [New York Times] Goal Remains to Remove Sterling, but Timetable Shifts (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 03:00:15 GMT)

    The N.B.A. had hoped to approve a transfer of ownership of the Clippers on Tuesday. But with Donald and Rochelle Sterling, the team’s co-owners, entangled in litigation, there is less certainty on when an ownership change will happen.

  • [New York Times] Red Klotz, Beloved Foil for Globetrotters, Dies at 93 (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 01:20:06 GMT)

    Klotz was the founder, owner and two-handed-set-shot artist for the Washington Generals, the Harlem Globetrotters’ foils, who owned the worst record in the history of sports.

  • [New York Times] National Basketball Association Roundup (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 00:47:10 GMT)

    Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and Udonis Haslem are returning to the Heat, even if LeBron James will not, and Luol Deng will join them in Miami.

  • [New York Times] Griner Dunks Again as Mercury Beat Mystics 90-78 (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 04:47:17 GMT)

    With a spark from Brittney Griner, in the form of her second dunk of the year, the Phoenix Mercury continued on its roll.

  • [New York Times] Silver: No Guarantee Sterling Out by Season Start (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 03:14:12 GMT)

    Eyebrow-raising testimony, abrupt changes of plans, courtroom delays. If there is one thing NBA Commissioner Adam Silver has learned during the Donald Sterling saga, it’s that there are no guarantees.

  • [New York Times] Goal Remains to Remove Sterling, but Timetable Shifts (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 03:00:15 GMT)

    The N.B.A. had hoped to approve a transfer of ownership of the Clippers on Tuesday. But with Donald and Rochelle Sterling, the team’s co-owners, entangled in litigation, there is less certainty on when an ownership change will happen.

  • [New York Times] Red Klotz, Beloved Foil for Globetrotters, Dies at 93 (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 01:20:06 GMT)

    Klotz was the founder, owner and two-handed-set-shot artist for the Washington Generals, the Harlem Globetrotters’ foils, who owned the worst record in the history of sports.

  • [New York Times] National Basketball Association Roundup (Wed, 16 Jul 2014 00:47:10 GMT)

    Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and Udonis Haslem are returning to the Heat, even if LeBron James will not, and Luol Deng will join them in Miami.

  • Liked it? Take a second to support Mike Kurylo on Patreon!

    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    91 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2014.07.16)”

    1. All said and done, the Knicks should definitely be able to get into the playoff race this season.

      IND, CHI, MIA, TOR, WAS, CHA are all still clear playoff teams. ATL was already a playoff team and should get more out of Horford. CLE is clearly a playoff team now. That’s 8. Then there’s Brooklyn, which I think we might be better than, but perhaps they are able to smoothly incorporate Brook Lopez. On top of that cursory glance at the standings, the early projections have the Knicks roster in the mid to upper 30s for wins. It’s possible the Knicks get into the playoff race, but “definitely” seems strong.

    2. I read somewhere that the Pacers wanted to dump Chris Copeland’s salary (3 mil). Knicks have a 3.6 million trade exception…

    3. I don’t understand why people here are so down on the Jason Smith signing. Imagine if you grafted Bargnani’s mid-range jump shooting ability onto someone who kept his usage to a reasonable rate, set great screens, rebounded at around 150% of Bargs’ usual levels, and played fairly competent defense, to the extent that over 10,000 career minutes his teams typically improve by 2 pts/100 possessions on that end of the court when he plays.

      For 1 year, $3 mil, for a team weak at the 4/5 spot? Why the hell not? The only real question is his ability to stay healthy, but it’s not like we’re paying him some obscene amount or made any kind of long term commitment. For that price, you’re not going to land a major game-changer.

    4. I think the prevailing sentiment is, for that price, couldn’t the Knicks have found a better player?

    5. Ah man..I REALLY like Lance in CHA. The East is so wide open now.

      On another note..I wanna chime in on Jeets. I’m a Mets fan. I hate the Yankees. But some things are just Legendary. I can’t wait to see what the narrative is gonna be once he retire’s at season’s end. I have plans to personalize a Mets jersey with the number 2 and “Capitan” on it. Some may see that as blasphemy, but i’m trying to pay homage to a champion. I have so much profound respect and love for Jeter as a baseball fan. Salute.

      RE: Jason Smith
      He and Bargs are redundant. I truly hope this doesn’t push Tyle out of a role. If we won’t have a lot of shot blocking, the team had better make up for it with size and rebounding.

    6. @2 I would do the Copeland trade in a heartbeat. I see him as a potential backup 3/4 – the guy to give Melo a rest.

    7. I think the prevailing sentiment is, for that price, couldn’t the Knicks have found a better player?

      Such as?

    8. IND, CHI, MIA, TOR, WAS, CHA are all still clear playoff teams. ATL was already a playoff team and should get more out of Horford. CLE is clearly a playoff team now. That’s 8.

      I suspect Washington could slip out (Wittman is still at the helm, and we have seen how a mediocre coach having a successful season could be a fluke). Indiana is running on fumes and will probably resign Evan Turner (ugh. Very bad). Miami is not a clear playoff team, at least until we know more about Wade’s health. I think we can have a shot at the #7-8 seeds.

    9. @7

      For example, Ed Davis, or Aminu, or Ayon, or DaJuan Blair. Heck, even Dante Cunningham.

      Guys, Jason Smith posted back-to-back negative WP seasons.

    10. Why aren’t we chasing the Jimmer? He seems a lock to be playing well the Paxson-Kerr-Fisher role in the Triangle.

    11. Personally I don’t think Indiana is a lock given their god awful play the last third of the season into the playoffs. Losing Lance, who was easily their second best player and replacing him with CJ Miles is a major loss. Will Hibbert show up for the whole season? Can David West up his usage and help carry the load Lance left at his age? Will their bench provide them any kind of spark this season or will they be asked to do too much since they already didn’t do much last season? Is Vogel capable of creating offensive sets that are a little more nuanced than a George ISO or post-up Hibbert?

      It’s hard to say what Atlanta will do, because it’s possible they try and move assets. They attempted to move Teague last season when they were in playoff seeding. They were shopping Millsap for a little while and can always find a landing spot for him given his contract and that he can definitely help a lot of teams looking to make a playoff push.

      Lance is a great pickup for Charlotte, but losing McRoberts was a blow. They need Vonleh to step up immediately and contribute otherwise they may well regress defensively.

      Also we never know when the injury bug may strike. The Knicks should be competing for a playoff spot this season and I’d be disappointed if they didn’t get there, though having our first round pick this year would alleviate my disappointment.

    12. For example, Ed Davis, or Aminu, or Ayon, or DaJuan Blair. Heck, even Dante Cunningham.

      Don’t you think they’ll get longer, better deals?

      EDIT: It’s true that locking Jason Smith before taking a look at those is hurrying unnecessarily.

    13. Longer, probably, but only Davis and Aminu. Better, I don’t know. Asking wouldn’t have hurt, though.

    14. @Farfa

      We have no idea if those guys are looking for multi-year deals which isn’t of much interest for Phil. Other than Ed Davis none of those guys particularly carry any level of interest for me and are likely to move the needle about as much as Jason Smith. I think ultimately Ed Davis is going to get a multi-year deal from somebody.

      I don’t think we need another shoot first, play no defense guard. I think we’ve got enough of those right now.

    15. rebounded at around 150% of Bargs’ usual levels

      Not gettin’ at you here, but saying that the guy rebounds at 150% of Bargnani’s rate is like saying that a woman is 150% more attractive than Joan Rivers.

    16. I don’t think we are making the playoffs but with a draft class loaded with bigs I really don’t care about it. Just give enough time to Aldrich, Shump, Hardaway, Larkin, Early and Tyler to see what we have, don’t use Carmelo too much (we better not waste his expensive minutes for an early playoff exit), implement the triangle and go into free agency with a clear plan. Maybe we end up being a fun team like Phoenix or Toronto last year, but no more 13-14 knicks that’s all I’m asking for these season.

    17. Look, I’m not anti Jason Smith. It’s a one-year contract, and it won’t be that bad anyway. I understand what Phil could have seen in him. I understand he needs soft shooting bigs, I understand how Smith could be seen as a poor man’s Luc Longley.

      But I’m going the Jowles way this time. He is a career .075 WS48, .511 TS% player (very similar to Longley, aw). He is what he is, and that is not a good player.

    18. Yeah, I just looked at his numbers. Pretty horrendous. WS has him as a bad player, WP as a terrible player. Can’t shoot, can’t rebound. Never seen him play defense but I can’t imagine it’d outweigh him being a dud on the offensive side of the ball.

      But is he a floor spacer? Is he good at post defense? Can he hit the pull-up 18-footer?

      These are all important questions here at Knickerblogger.

    19. None of those other guys you mentioned are very good players which is why their teams don’t want them. The Grizzlies declined to tender a relatively cheap qualifying offer on Davis even though his on court numbers look pretty good. Maybe he’s a total headcase which we’ve had enough of on this team.

      Dajuan Blair? He’s a noted pouter when he’s not playing and when the Spurs and Mavs dump you despite some decent production, there’s something not quite right there. In his case it’s that he has an inflated sense of himself and is a defensive sieve.

      Gustavo Ayon and Aminu are for me at roughly the same level of prospect as Jason Smith for this team. I’m not very upset that we didn’t land either of them.

      Like I said maybe Ed Davis would have been a nice pick-up, but it’s disconcerting to me that Memphis didn’t tender him a qualifying offer which would have given them matching rights and I also think it’s likely he ultimately gets a multi-year deal.

    20. IND, CHI, MIA, TOR, WAS, CHA are all still clear playoff teams. ATL was already a playoff team and should get more out of Horford. CLE is clearly a playoff team now.

      Cleveland is a clear playoff team.

      No one else on that list is anything close to a lock and I can easily see any one of them missing the playoffs.

    21. Jason Smith puts a lot of effort, that has to be said. He’s going to be a crowd pleaser with his fake hustle and his 18 pts, 12 reb game in a meaningless game against the Bucks in late March. But I’d prefer giving all of his minutes to Cole Aldrich and another token guy (even Jeremy Tyler).

    22. Washington is a lock. Toronto’s a lock. Indiana is going to fall a bit, but guaranteed a playoff spot barring catastrophic injury. Chicago will be excellent again. Cleveland is a 2nd-round exit team. Lots of hype, not much production. If they get Love, disregard everything and pencil them in for a Finals appearance.

      The question is whether there’s an Eastern team that wins more than 52 games. Like, one. I think this year could be a year of real parity in the East. Still going to have some bottom-dwellers, but even fewer “great” teams than there were last year. Miami and, to a lesser extent, Indiana lost their most productive players. Bosh is going to brick a lot of 3-pointers. Wade’s knees are going to explode. David West is due to age-bomb any month now. The Pacers have a near-max center who got 0 points, 0 rebounds and 5 fouls in a playoff game.

    23. None of those other guys you mentioned are very good players which is why their teams don’t want them.

      They are definitely not good players, but I think everyone of them is better, and more importantly more productive, than Jason Smith.

    24. Just hop onto the Cole train, boys. Watch the wins roll in. Scrappy, gritty superlative ball, aka “rebounding enough so Carmelo gets his looks.” If he can stay on the floor for 30 MPG there will be Cole novelty shirts in the online store by January.

    25. The question is whether there’s an Eastern team that wins more than 52 games.

      The Knicks?

      :)

    26. lol iserp pls

      I’m really excited that the Knicks might be forced to play what looks like a hyper-productive, hypo-flashy stiff at center, but when you lose Tyson Chandler, you’re really only trying to match the production, not improve on it.

      The Knicks upgraded some, and downgraded some. Chandler’s on the way down from his 3-year streak as the most undervalued (and freakishly productive) center in the league but he’d still be a welcome addition to any team in the league, minus the Clippers, who have a younger version of him who’s apparently still on the rise. Calderon is a big step up from Felton, but we got him about three years too late. C’est la Knicks.

    27. Now seriously, i think the biggest difference between last year and the year before was not that Bargnani was playing minutes. He has been bad, but not that bad. The problem has been the PG spot. In 2012-13 Felton had an average year, and we had Kidd, playing many times 2PG lineups. In 2013-14, Felton had a bad year, Prigioni had injury problems and i don’t know the reason Woodson did not play Udrih more. But all in all, we had much worse ball handling.

      If Calderon can provide nice minutes (no injuries, etc.) and Larkin develops a little; i think this team will be much closer to the 54-win team than to the 37-win one. Even without Chandler.

    28. By the way, that no trade clause is the worst bit of news I’ve heard around the Knicks since the original Melo trade.

      I wanted to be optimistic. I wanted to think that this deal, coupled with the rising cap, could end up being less of a disaster than it appears. But with the inclusion of this NTC, this contract just became one of the worst blunders in Knicks’ FO history.

      Melo’s position is clear: I took “less money” to give you the opp to sign one max free agent next year. If you fail, I will demand a trade and you will get nothing for me.

      There are a lot of things a team can do with cap space. Melo will demand we do one thing with it: sign a max free agent or he leaves. Which means we’re unlikely to be able to do smart long term things with it because Melo runs the Knicks now.

      Phil Jackson failed this negotiation horribly. I don’t know who to hate more, Melo or Phil for agreeing for this. One thing’s for so, RuRu can take his I Told You So’s and shove ’em up Melo’s ass.

    29. Aminu actually has a lower TS% than Smith and he plays SF. That’s not the top priority right now since we can play Early, JR or Shump there. Ayon can’t hit from the mid-range which is an important part of the Triangle, though overall as a player he’s roughly on the same level as Smith.

      Dejuan Blair puts up a lot of good offensive numbers that he gives right back on the other end. If the guy was a good player and could have been had at the cheap price of $3.27m do you think that the Spurs would have let him walk to a division rival? Do you think that division rival would then let him go for cheap and show no interest in keeping him? Is it possible that Popovich and Carlisle are that stupid?

    30. That said, come on, we all knew it would be included, so it’s not a big deal in that regard

      Maybe I’m naive, but I’m completely shocked. No one gets a no trade clause in the NBA unless

      a) they’re Kobe Bryant and the Lakers are idiots

      b) the player is agreeing to take a massive pay cut (Duncan, KG, Dirk are the only other players who have one, and they all got the NTC in exchange for massive pay cuts).

      This is one of the biggest negotiating failures of all time. This is unprecedented. Name me the last NBA player to get a NTC in his prime on a max deal.

    31. OK, I’m officially addicted to this site and I need to go to KB rehab!

      I just read this thread before I checked my email!

      Looks like the team is what it is now that Melodrama 2 is concluded.

      Now we seem to be going back and forth on Bargs, Lin, and Jason Smith! Last year around this time I was debating the bunt!

      Baby Knicks look fucking great. I smell a (summer league) title! They seem really intense and are playing with emotion. Hopefully, coach Fisher can motivate the vets similarly this fall. I’d prefer more ink spilled on the present and less on the spilled milk of the past.

      I have a research paper to write so I’m done for a while but I just wanted to say thanks again for the knowledge. I am unworthy as a poster but a grateful reader.

    32. According to WP:

      2013-14

      Anthony 10.0
      Chandler 7.6
      Prigioni 5.8
      Shumpert 4.5
      Smith 4.0
      Felton 3.0
      Stoudemire 2.9

      2012-13

      Chandler 13.3
      Kidd 11.2
      Smith 5.7
      Prigioni 5.2
      Novak 4.0
      Felton 3.5
      Shumpert 2.7
      Anthony 2.3

      I’m more inclined to think that Kidd’s departure had something to do with it. Check out Kidd’s ORTG over the first games of that season.

      169
      160
      267
      173
      110
      126
      215
      85
      122
      190
      127
      127
      174
      106
      71
      177
      197
      155
      91

      He never had a high USG%, and sometimes had a uniquely low USG%, but he was scoring with extreme efficiency for the first 20 games or so. Then he leveled out.

      But he also had games like this:

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201212110BRK.html

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201212260PHO.html

      When you score 18 points on 9 true shot attempts, your team has a lot of breathing room to suck.

      In the Nets game, Carmelo had a career-worthy night and Kidd was equally efficient. Then Kidd retired and the Knicks got Bargnani and Metta World Peace to ease the burden. It didn’t work.

    33. @Jowles

      Completely agree and I was one that thought losing Kidd wouldn’t hurt as much because I expected Shumpert to step up. Oops.

      Hopefully Calderon can provide a similar boost if not as big of one.

    34. @29

      Lavor, again, I’m not trying to say those players are good players. I’m saying that there is nothing wrong in thinking that the Knicks could have done something better with those money. You don’t need to convince me that all of them are damaged goods. They are just a little less damaged than Jason Smith.

    35. @Farfa

      My point is that none of those guys represent great value for what we’re looking at. I also think it’s not even worth arguing about for a guy who’s probably a 1-year stop gap and is just here to eat minutes. I have no clue what those other guys want on a contract, but if Smith can just not be Bargnani and play like 10-15 minutes a night and provide depth that’s fine. I wasn’t looking for much out of that signing and I don’t think much is out there anyways.

    36. “Asking wouldn’t have hurt, though.”
      I love how people assume that they know what did or did not go on behind the scenes. Maybe Phil locked onto the concept of Jason Smith a month ago and never asked about any other free agents. Or maybe he called up every single agent in the US and Europe and asked about every single free agent that was available and, only after doing due diligence on everyone who was available, he settled on Smith. The truth is probably somewhere between those two extremes but it’s pretty ridiculous to think that Jackson showed up at MSG yesterday and said, “Hey guys, I just thought of something — let’s sign this Smith kid and to hell with anyone else who might be available!!”

    37. Phil Jackson failed this negotiation horribly.

      This is absolutely true. No matter how good Melo plays, PJ gave much, simply because he didn’t have to.
      Just like a household budget, whether you’re researching to buy a car or tv or whatever. We’re all cap restricted. If we see a tv, the one we really want, for $75o in store A, why pay $1000 at store B? It just leaves less money for everything else.

    38. That said, I suspect that Jackson will eschew Gasol next season for that very reason, that building around two max guys in the early 30s (without a significant supporting staff) is not a recipe for success. I think he might look to sign multiple guys instead and build around Melo solely. I have (perhaps unrealistic) faith that Jackson can pull that off.

      He may want to, but what happens when Melo comes calling and says “I didn’t take a pay cut for you to not sign a max free agent, I demand a trade to the Bulls.” And that is going to happen. Don’t deceive yourself. Phil is not in charge anymore.

    39. I’m not happy the way the Melo contract turned out, just like I wasn’t happy giving up as much as we did to get him (specifically, I felt then that we gave up a player and a draft pick too many.)

      But, onward.

      Now that Melo is locked in, the goal has to be developing young players quickly and finding bargains. I hope that Phil gives Shump, Hardaway, Aldrich, Tyler, Early, Larkin ant Thanasis a long, careful look before jettisoning them to get a band-aid solution. I hope that if Larkin and/or Murry is/are not the low-budget PG answer, Phil keeps his eye out for a D-leaguer who might be the next Lin/Beverly/Thomas and will replace Pablo in 2015. And we actually have a draft pick next year!!!

    40. He may want to, but what happens when Melo comes calling and says “I didn’t take a pay cut for you to not sign a max free agent, I demand a trade to the Bulls.”

      Phil gives him a special book to read which convinces him that actually he wants to stay in NY.

    41. According to WP:

      2013-14

      Anthony 10.0
      Chandler 7.6
      Prigioni 5.8
      Shumpert 4.5
      Smith 4.0
      Felton 3.0
      Stoudemire 2.9

      2012-13

      Chandler 13.3
      Kidd 11.2
      Smith 5.7
      Prigioni 5.2
      Novak 4.0
      Felton 3.5
      Shumpert 2.7
      Anthony 2.3

      Jowles, according to WP, Anthony produced 2 wins one year and 10 the next, and Chandler 13 wins one year and 7 the rest. Don’t you think such wild changes make comparisons a bit pointless?

      WP is designed to sum up nicely and give (approximately) your win total. Its formula correctly values each play for the team. But it fails going from team statistics to individual statistics. For example, it assumes that a shot that player X takes can be taken in the exact condition by player Y. But Rebounds is a totally different story, and the rebounds of player X could only be taken by player X.

      Why am i saying this? Because a few weeks back, johnno started the comment section of a few threads attacking WP48 and saying that he disliked that some people in this board used WP as ‘proof’ that some players are great. There were answers from the posters that use WP48 frequently citing they don’t use WP48 as an absolute measure of anything, and those who said otherwise were dishonest. But here it is again! WP48 has came back to the boards. And not as a thoughtful additions, but as in this quote. A wild number thrown that assess the greatness or not of some player. No use discussing the balance of a team. Why should i bother if i only have PFs and Cs and no PGs if i only have to add this little number called WP and know how my team will fare?

      Jowles, a lot of times you have criticized us for bringing up the team of 5 Chandlers (and with reason, it is a strawman argument if there was one). But then you argue as if team construction didn’t matter at all. So, our only competent PG is 35 years old and can only play little minutes… but you still go for the WP number. Great!

    42. Just like a household budget, whether you’re researching to buy a car or tv or whatever. We’re all cap restricted. If we see a tv, the one we really want, for $75o in store A, why pay $1000 at store B? It just leaves less money for everything else.

      The prevailing arguments tends toward:

      1) That buying the TV for $1000 will ensure that the TV remains happy, and not feel disrespected, in your home.

      2) That buying the TV at any cost, $750 or $1000, will attract other high-priced electronics to join the TV in your home.

      3) That — forget the opportunity cost — the TV is still worth more than $1000, so why not be happy that you’ve got it?

      Blech, blech, and blech.

    43. He may want to, but what happens when Melo comes calling and says “I didn’t take a pay cut for you to not sign a max free agent, I demand a trade to the Bulls.” And that is going to happen. Don’t deceive yourself. Phil is not in charge anymore.

      I have no idea how you’re making an assumption like this. I can see an argument for Phil fucking up the negotiation and giving up too much, but if Melo demands a trade to the Bulls with 3 years left on the deal before the ETO we’re not going to be in any rush to trade him unless we get a worthwhile offer. You don’t sign a 5-year deal if you want move within a year if things aren’t to your liking.

    44. For example, it assumes that a shot that player X takes can be taken in the exact condition by player Y. But Rebounds is a totally different story, and the rebounds of player X could only be taken by player X.

      I don’t think this is accurate. It assumes that the shots taken by player X had an efficiency of A. It describes, and does not prescribe.

      WP48 does not imply that Carmelo Anthony’s shots could be taken by Tyson Chandler. It implies that Tyson Chandler’s shots, attempted and made, are worth A and Carmelo Anthony’s shots, attempted and made, are worth B. It’s a descriptive stat, and will never provide perfect accuracy in the future (nor even in the past) due to the limits of the box score.

    45. “PJ gave much, simply because he didn’t have to.”
      And you know this how? You have no clue what went on in the room and what Melo or Phil were really thinking. Maybe Melo really did want to go to the Lakers and maybe Phil realized that, if he didn’t give Melo what he wanted, he would have left for nothing. If the decision came down to let him go or sign him to a near max deal, reasonable minds can disagree whether it would have been a better decision to let him go for nothing (for the record, I think that that would have been a lousy idea but, then again, I’ve said on many occasions that I’d be a lousy GM), but none of us has any idea whether that really was the decision that had to be made.

    46. I have no idea how you’re making an assumption like this. I can see an argument for Phil fucking up the negotiation and giving up too much, but if Melo demands a trade to the Bulls with 3 years left on the deal before the ETO we’re not going to be in any rush to trade him unless we get a worthwhile offer. You don’t sign a 5-year deal if you want move within a year if things aren’t to your liking.

      Well for one thing, none other than Woj stated that the prevailing thought in Melo’s camp was “get your money now, get your trade later.”

      For another thing, I don’t know, where would I possibly get the idea that Carmelo Anthony would demand a trade if he is unhappy and make things so untenable that a team feels like it has no choice but to move him? Hmm… if only there were some other time he did that I could reference ;)

    47. Ed Davis, or Aminu, or Ayon, or DaJuan Blair. Heck, even Dante Cunningham.

      I don’t believe that most of those players (certainly not Ed Davis or Aminu) would have taken a 1 year, $3 million deal. We needed a 1-year stopgap who can credibly defend the center position (so not Blair or Cunningham) and offers at least one viable skill on offense. Smith fits the bill. If you’re really going to make the case that Phil Jackson screwed up big time by going for Jason Smith over Gustavo Ayon… I just don’t think that’s true.

      Not gettin’ at you here, but saying that the guy rebounds at 150% of Bargnani’s rate is like saying that a woman is 150% more attractive than Joan Rivers.

      Some people are into that! Seriously though, point taken, but you also have to look at Smith relative to the players whose minutes he’ll hopefully be taking. He may not be the second coming of Rodman, but he’s substantially better than Bargnani on the boards, and as I noted, has had a positive impact on team defense over the course of his career.

    48. Well for one thing, none other than Woj stated that the prevailing thought in Melo’s camp was “get your money now, get your trade later.”

      For another thing, I don’t know, where would I possibly get the idea that Carmelo Anthony would demand a trade if he is unhappy and make things so untenable that a team feels like it has no choice but to move him? Hmm… if only there were some other time he did that I could reference ;)

      I’ll say again Woj all of a sudden coming out with that quote right after Isola broke the story of Melo coming back to the Knicks was curious. If he had a source that knew what their camp’s thinking was how is it he didn’t break the story that Melo would come back to the Knicks. Also while Woj is the best in the business he’s never had particularly close sources to Carmelo going back to Denver trade.

      And yeah Carmelo forced a trade here, but it wasn’t after just signing a 5-year deal. If he wants to leave after a season the Knicks will be in no rush to grant that request unless they receive fair value for him given he wouldn’t be able to opt out for another 3 years.

    49. “PJ gave much, simply because he didn’t have to.”
      And you know this how?

      Because a no trade clause on a max contract to a player in his prime is unprecedented in the post-1999 lockout marketplace. A NTC is given in return for something: a shorter deal, or less money. Melo got the full length, 99.85% of the max, an opt out, and a no trade. He got everything that was on the table, and something from the cabinet to boot.

      There is nothing in the current CBA available to an NBA player that we didn’t give him. He got the best non-Kobe contract since the 1999 lockout.

    50. Read something on twitter about JR Smith drawing interest from the Kings and Bucks.

      I could definitely see the Kings trading for him… I would do like Travis Outlaw, Reggie Evans + filler easily. Clears cap space for next year, frees up playing time for the young guards, and Reggie Evans fills a role. The Bucks doesn’t make much sense though, don’t have many guys on expiring deals.

    51. If you’re really going to make the case that Phil Jackson screwed up big time

      Sometimes I feel like this board will make me lose my patience. And I have a lot of that.

      I never said Phil screwed up big time. I never intended to say that. I’m here, putting my own two cents on KB’s hat to pass time. I’m not a Phil hater or whatever else. I’m a guy who saw a question and gave his honest answer (maybe right, maybe wrong, but hey, the cool thing in a good board is exactly that people with different opinions can talk about many things and try to come out with much more formed ideas than the first time they said anything on it). That’s it.

    52. 99.85%

      Ok, to be fair it was 96.1% of the max. Which was 130% more than anyone was offering.

    53. If you want to be extremely cynical (and I’m not saying I do, but…), a lower salary in 2015 also helps Melo get traded to the Bulls next summer.

    54. That’s not cynical. That’s the best thing that could happen. Especially for like, 3 1st-rounders.

    55. Maybe we can ship JR to the Hornets, I would pay big money to watch Born Ready and Pipe try to out-knucklehead each other. Maybe JR can untie Shawn Marion’s shoe while Lance whispers sweet nothings into his ear?

    56. “Ok, to be fair it was 96.1% of the max. Which was 130% more than anyone was offering.”
      That is only true if you assume that, had he signed elsewhere, he would only play four years and then retire. The Lakers reportedly offered him $97 million for 4 years, which is almost exactly what he signed with the Knicks for for the first 4 years. I’ll say it again — you have zero clue where Melo and his agents drew a line in the sand, so you have no idea whether Melo would have taken one cent less than the Knicks ended up paying him and you have no idea whether they made the no trade clause a deal breaker.

    57. That’s not cynical. That’s the best thing that could happen. Especially for like, 3 1st-rounders.

      Except he has NTC that prevents us from creating leverage so why would they give us anything?

    58. Regarding Seth’s article, he mentioned:

      Keep in mind that, by dipping so far below the cap, the Knicks will forfeit their ability to use the Mid-Level Exception and the Bi-Annual Exception.

      I thought the year the Heat signed the big 3 they still used the room exception to sign Battier and then the mid-level to sign Miller. Am I misinformed about this? (I’ve been misinformed about a few things recently, though in my defense, 90% of sports sites are blocked on my office computer so when I google for info I usually end up pretty far down the list of reputable sites.)

    59. That is only true if you assume that, had he signed elsewhere, he would only play four years and then retire. The Lakers reportedly offered him $97 million for 4 years, which is almost exactly what he signed with the Knicks for for the first 4 years. I’ll say it again — you have zero clue where Melo and his agents drew a line in the sand, so you have no idea whether Melo would have taken one cent less than the Knicks ended up paying him and you have no idea whether they made the no trade clause a deal breaker.

      No I don’t. But I know no one else could have offered him a NTC, so why did we? And if someone says “$124 million without a NTC is a deal breaker, I’m going to take $96 million from the Lakers bank on being able to get $28 million when I’m 35”, and you blink, I think you did a bad job.

      This idea that the shouldn’t factor the 5th year into the equation because it’s not like he’s going to retire is hogwash. A player option for $29 million vs hoping you can still play at an elite level (or any level) when your 35? Give me a break. One is a helluva lot more attractive!!!

    60. So Mike Miller gives the Cavs a 6.5 million discount — over %50 — of what he could have gotten from another team. Anthony gives the Knicks a 5 million discount — less than %4 — but we will never hear the end of how dearly he loves his hometown crap.

      This level of arrogance and hypocrisy make it impossible for me to root for the guy even if he’s next year’s MVP. And most likely he won’t even come close.

    61. On top of it all, Phil’s getting an enormous paycheck for being the shrewd, patient, zen master that’s supposed to put a championship team on the floor, along with instilling great system basketball and a winning culture.
      A great roster is the foundation of the plan, and in what may be the most important negotiation in his forthcoming tenure, he got out maneuvered by Melo and his agent. There’s no question Phil wanted to pay him less – he’s been peppering Melo for months about it.
      And, in the end, he got slam dunked on. A facial. I’ll go as far as saying that no one, here in this forum or Mr. Give-away-the-Farm himself, JD, could have negotiated a worse deal for the knicks.

    62. So Mike Miller gives the Cavs a 6.5 million discount — over %50 — of what he could have gotten from another team. Anthony gives the Knicks a 5 million discount — less than %4 — but we will never hear the end of how dearly he loves his hometown crap.

      This level of arrogance and hypocrisy make it impossible for me to root for the guy even if he’s next year’s MVP. And most likely he won’t even come close.

      You don’t understand. Mike Miller can’t manufacture his own shot! He’s slow! He’s old! He’s not a superstar! He hasn’t averaged double figures in PPG since 2010! Everyone who would have paid the full MLE for him is a fool!

    63. no one, here in this forum or Mr. Give-away-the-Farm himself, JD, could have negotiated a worse deal for the knicks.

      A terrible precedent, too. Which player would come in at any sort of discount once they know that the Knicks, even Jackson’s Knicks overpay?

      They can still be a good team basketball wise, but watching good management in action is part of the fun, and this is not it.

    64. In fact, the more I think about it, there’s something fishy about it. Why would PJ give away so much if you’re truly representing the organization’s best interest. . . . Or, is he?
      Conspiracy theory – JD wanted to keep Melo at any cost. Maybe Phil sees that he’s not going to last long here. He’s not a huge Melo fan. Phil’s a Laker at heart. His wife own’s the Lakers.
      Put the pieces together and it starts to make sense.

      How else could you give away soooo much? Just doesn’t make sense.

    65. @64 I know you’re being sarcastic but just for the record he had a 168 WP48, a pretty great deal at 5.5 mill for two years. And no, he would not have done it to come play with Melo. At least I don’t think so, and hasn’t seen it in the 3 years he’s already here.

    66. In 10 years, hiring Phil will be just another weave in Dolan’s tapestry of errors. There is a certain obviousness about it all now. Phil didn’t really do anything wrong. Hiring him was wrong. He’s 70 years old and is on a 5 year contract, the first year of which is guaranteed to be a nonwinner. Of course he wants/needs to keep Carmelo. Of course he’s going to use the cap space next summer on the best max player in his 30’s instead of trying to acquire more assets.

    67. Of course he’s going to use the cap space next summer on the best max player in his 30?s instead of trying to acquire more assets.

      You mean like sacrificing cap space in a trade that returns a young player on a rookie contract, a player that cuts in to your cap but that you feel fits in to your system, two expiring contracts for rotation players, a trade exception and 2 second round picks? Like hiring a rookie coach instead of a retread? Like rebuffing trade offers for a young player like Shumpert?

      Why don’t we let Phil have more than 4 months before we start making sweeping judgments of him being too old build anything up and sacrificing the future for the here and now.

    68. In fact, the more I think about it, there’s something fishy about it. Why would PJ give away so much if you’re truly representing the organization’s best interest. . . . Or, is he?
      Conspiracy theory – JD wanted to keep Melo at any cost. Maybe Phil sees that he’s not going to last long here. He’s not a huge Melo fan. Phil’s a Laker at heart. His wife own’s the Lakers.
      Put the pieces together and it starts to make sense.

      How else could you give away soooo much? Just doesn’t make sense.

      Really?

    69. Phil is old. He’s 68. His contract runs for five years. When the contract is up he’ll be 73. I don’t think he’ll be re-upping when that contract ends, so we’re once again looking at a five-year window of possible relevancy. Year one of that window is next year, and year five of the window is 35-year old Melo on a $30M contract, so really it’s kind of a three-year window.

      One-third of the salary cap is tied up in a player who is not likely to outplay the value of his contract. So for the Knicks to really get into that 55+ win area where they can really contend, they will need one of two things to happen: 1. For the triangle offense to boost Melo to a solidly .200+ WS48 type player, or 2. For the remaining two thirds of the roster to significantly outplay the value of their contracts. Actually they probably need both things to happen. If Phil bats 1.000 from here out by nailing the 2015 draft pick, finding undervalued players on the scrap heap and spending wisely in 2015 free agency, maybe the Knicks could make some noise. Maybe some miracle happens, like Kevin Love or Kevin Durant coming here. You never know.

      More likely, I think we’ll see more or less a repeat of the Stat-Melo years– a year or two of fringe playoff contention, maybe one or two years of mid-50’s win totals, a playoff series win or two, followed by a slide back to irrelevance in years 4 and 5 of Melo’s contract. And then Jax will retire rather than preside over another “rebuild,” and Dolan will hire some other cult of personality type who dazzles him with rings he won as a player 25 years ago and connections to The Eagles. And the circle of life will be complete.

    70. Charlotte has now added two really good young pieces to their roster in the offseason, Lance Stephenson and Noah Vonleh, who was maybe my favorite player in the draft this year. For all the people who say “building through the draft is a crapshoot,” I refer you to the Hornets, who have a young team that is a legitimate contender to win their division, acquired the uber-talented Vonleh for peanuts (they got the pick from the Pistons in a trade for Corey freaking Maggette), used their payroll flexibility to bring in an impact two-way player like Lance Stephenson on a very appealing contract, and STILL have lots of payroll flexibility.

      They’ve made some missteps here and there, but they’re a top 5 defense already and they have a lot of guys who are still on an upward trajectory. Man, would I love to be able to root for a Knick team like that.

    71. If the Knicks put together 85 million of fairly valued contracts, they are a fifty five win team. The problem is 35 million worth of Stat and Bargs this year.

    72. @72 yes, Charlotte is truly destined for greatness, signing head case Lance Stephenson who his own teammates wanted gone and the sure thing Noah Vonleh, who was 0-13 in his first summer league game. There’s no doubt they’re going deep into the playoffs this year.

      The grass is definitely greener in every city outside of New York.

    73. @JK47

      Let’s see how much upside they have left when they have to re-sign Kemba. I like Vonleh too but he hasn’t played a game in the league yet and he’ll be replacing McRoberts who isn’t a world beater but was very important to their offense and defense last season. Also they’re not a winning the division over Washington and they got spanked in the first round by Miami in 4 games. I’m not sold on the Hornets being a massive success story of how to build through the draft.

    74. Here’s my wild card prediction on Amare.
      I believe he has a lot to prove and is going to show up in phenomenal condition with some new or refined elements to his game.
      He’s going to give near max production, and the delemma will be for the knicks to replace him with someone less expensive. But if he plays like a $12-15 million/year guy, the pickens will be slim.

      And, if by miracle, the knicks go deep in the playoffs with Amare being a big contributor, look for him to re-sign (gasp! ) for a big discount.

    75. Let’s see how much upside they have left when they have to re-sign Kemba.

      Kemba isn’t even one of their key players. You can find another league average point guard; if they’re smart they’ll trade Kemba rather than re-sign him. I agree that if they give Kemba a big extension they’ll be shooting themselves in the foot.

      If the Hornets were the Knicks we’d all be creaming ourselves, let’s get real. A top 5 defensive team loaded with young talent and payroll flexibility? Who would want that?

    76. You mean like sacrificing cap space in a trade that returns a young player on a rookie contract, a player that cuts in to your cap but that you feel fits in to your system, two expiring contracts for rotation players, a trade exception and 2 second round picks? Like hiring a rookie coach instead of a retread? Like rebuffing trade offers for a young player like Shumpert?

      Why don’t we let Phil have more than 4 months before we start making sweeping judgments of him being too old build anything up and sacrificing the future for the here and now.

      I liked the Chandler trade and I’m not saying Phil is going to do everything wrong. But the Melo decision was the most important one affecting the Knicks, and the hiring of Phil virtually guaranteed he would be back. And bringing him back will drive our motivation for using next year’s cap space. We are likely locked into more middling basketball for a few years. Which may be ok, some steady playoff basketball will do wonders for our image.

      But the hiring of Phil, in my opinion, took away a very attractive alternative: trading melo for assets and restarting the entire process.

      Maybe a young GM trades Melo, takes back Boozer, and acquires Mirotic and a trove of valuable picks from Chicago. We could then pump and dump Shump & JR for a couple more picks (I think both could net a late 1 from a contender). And then we use our cap space to pick up more assets from teams looking to dump players ahead of what should be a wild free agent summer in 2016.

      That was a fairly decent alternative that we should have been happy with if Melo’s price got too high. Being comfortable accepting that outcome would have prevented us from overpaying for Melo. But I don’t think Phil could have accepted that alternative, so he caved to Melo, like everyone ever before at this organization.

    77. See, if we did what the Hornets did, though, we could realistically expect to be attractive to a real superstar. That’s why it’s silly to look at their low ceiling and act like it would be ours. I would love to trade rosters and future flexibility with them.

    78. Here’s my wild card prediction on Amare.
      I believe he has a lot to prove and is going to show up in phenomenal condition with some new or refined elements to his game.
      He’s going to give near max production, and the delemma will be for the knicks to replace him with someone less expensive.

      That’s a rather bold prediction, and I can’t see how it could possibly come true.

      For Amar’e to be a near-max player, he’d have to generate 10+ wins. He’d have to play at .200 WS48 level and play a lot of minutes. He is capable of neither thing. Furthermore, the team is running the triangle now, and will be running far less pick and roll, which is Amar’e’s bread and butter. It’s not like Amar’e is able to read defenses and make good decisions with the ball, so it is really hard to see how he is even going to fit into the triangle. Amar’e is a rhythm-based player and needs to be in a groove to get his offense going; when he’s tentative and not “feeling it” he is complete garbage as a player. Is he really going to thrive in the triangle, which emphasizes off-ball movement, smart passing and teamwork? Then there’s the issue of his defense, which flat-out sucks, and which gives back a lot of the value he has on offense.

      My feeling about Amar’e is the exact opposite of what you’re saying: I think Amar’e is going to be terrible in this system.

    79. Amar’e still has a ton of skills that would work well in any system, especially one that provides post up opportunities and yields open jumpers for big men (he could be deadly hitting those elbow j’s). He’ll probably be excellent. On offense. When he plays. Unfortunately he will certainly be terrible on defense and won’t play that much due to injury.

    80. The idea what Phil Jackson came here to load up on 30 y/olds and then let the team burn after his contract ends in 5 years is ridiculous. Everything the Knicks have done thus far has pointed to putting together a system (the triangle) that can stand as a basis for our organizational approach for a long time.

      If you are going all out to win now, do you trade Tyson Chandler, a declining but still effective player, for three young projects (Larkin, Early, Antetokounmpo)? If you are going all out to win now, do you hire a guy who has NEVER coached a basketball game as your head coach and then talk publicly about molding him and how he has the opportunity to learn? If you are going all out to win now, do you publicly state that it will take time to win big?

      I mean, seriously, what are you guys talking about? Phil even said, “we’ve been a taxpayer team for a little bit and we want to limit that. So we’re not just going to foolishly throw money away because it’s available to us to load up. We want to make an appropriate move that brings our team forward.”

      It’s fair to criticize the Melo deal. We paid too much and shouldn’t have given him the NTC. But it is ridiculous to say this means that Phil is just going to throw bags of money at the next top 50 30 year old player who becomes available.

      Clearly, Phil thinks Melo is worth this contract. I’m not going to go into all this conjecture about how Melo might become the best player in the world in the triangle. We always do that here, it’s tired, we’ll see what happens. I do, however, think that projecting into the future and saying this completely cripples the Knicks for the next five years when we have no idea what the FO’s plan is is just as bad as that conjecture…

    81. …If I had to speculate, I’d say the plan will be to keep acquiring young talent and build around Melo and the triangle system. I think it’s more likely we go after a few mid priced played then one max guy next year. In fact, Phil also said that would be the approach on the summer league game broadcast a few days ago. If we don’t win a championship with Melo, which we probably won’t, it’s actually not that big of a deal if we keep drafting well and developing talent to fit our system. We do actually have draft picks in 4 of the 5 years of Melo’s deal (we’re only missing our pick in 2016). That is how you build a team.

      Why would Phil Jackson risk his legacy to come here as president and blindly chase a few big name free agents? This is about building for the future. I would also expect that in the coming years he’ll hire someone to be his successor in the front office after he retires.

    82. I just want to return to the idea of citing Charlotte as a model of how to successfully build through the draft. Here are Charlottes first round picks over the last ten years (w/ pick number in parentheses):
      Emeka Okafor (2), Raymond Felton (5), Sean May (13), Adam Morrison (3), Brandon Wright (8 – but traded), Jared Dudley (22), DJ Augustin (12), Alexis Ajinca (20), Gerald Henderson (12), Kemba Walker (9), MKG (2), Cody Zeller (4), Noah Vonleh (9).

      Yikes.

      Maybe Vonleh will be good, but building through the draft sure looks miserable.

    83. The idea what Phil Jackson came here to load up on 30 y/olds and then let the team burn after his contract ends in 5 years is ridiculous.

      It most certainly is. It’s also a straw man argument. I didn’t say he came here to load up on 30 year olds. I said the option of moving melo for long term assets and getting separation from all the errors of the past and actually resetting this franchise probably was never very appealing to him so it didn’t get the consideration it deserved. And I said he most likely to use the free agent space “on the best max player in his 30’s”, i.e. Marc Gasol.

      That’s what you get with cap space and no assets now, one of the veteran free agents. The young guys, like Love, will probably never make it to FA.

      But go on. You’re killing that straw man. He’s gonna tap out any minute.

    84. I exaggerated in saying “load up on 30 year olds.” What I meant is this: I don’t think Phil’s plan is centered around using the 2015 cap space on on of those veteran free agents. We do have assets, though it will be tough to determine their value until we see them play in the system: Shumpert, THJ, Early, Larkin, maybe Thannasis, future draft picks (except for 2016).

      We don’t have to spend our cap space on one of those veterans next summer. We could use it to below the max vets while we continue to develop our younger players. Jackson actually said that he would look at the option of getting multiple guys around ~10/year. Guys like Robin Lopez, Wes Matthews, and Goran Dragic (though he might be a max player) fit the bill there. The other thing is that having cap space doesn’t mean we have to spend it on 2015 free agents. We can also use it in trades to bring back talent, etc.

      There’s just been no indication that the only plan for next summer is to bring in “one of the veteran free agents,” as you’ve suggested.

    85. And Hubert in response to what you said about re-setting the franchise I’d argue that it’s easier to effectively implement a new system, thereby re-setting the franchise, if you have pieces that are actually able to execute that system. It’s a lot easier for everyone to learn and develop in the triangle playing alongside Melo and Calderon than it would be playing alongside Calderon, Mirotic, and McDermott.

      You can look at a player like Khawi Leonard as an example. Yes, he’s a great player and talent, but he’s also benefited immensely in his development from being in the Spur’s system and playing alongside TP, Duncan, and Manu.

    86. All I’m saying SJK, is that if you commit to Melo, you are likely going to commit to helping him win asap, which means that once again we are likely to avoid making moves that help us in the long term.

      Let’s say, for instance, next summer Kevin Love and Marc Gasol are both free agents. Love wants to sign with Chicago and they need to dump some contracts and we’re one of the few teams that can help. (This is hypothetical, so don’t be concerned if they wouldn’t actually do this) They offer us two draft picks in 2015, their pick in 2017, and like 4 2nd rounders to take a two year contract of some stiff making $13 million a year.

      Because we committed to Melo, we’re more likely to turn that deal down and use that space to sign Marc Gasol than we are to accepting that kind of deal, even though it’s much better from a long term perspective. So while I’m not saying Phil is going to load up on old guys, I do think he will favor short term benefits over long term because he is committed to a player who only has 3-4 years remaining.

    87. I see what you’re saying, but I think it depends more on how Phil envisions the team with Melo than just having him under contract. For example, following your hypothetical if Early, Larkin, and Hardaway play well/show signs then maybe Phil decides its best to build with young talent around Melo, accepts the trade and then pursues a Robin Lopez type with the remaining cap space to anchor the defense.

      Like I’ve been saying, I think it depends entirely on the system and player development within it. If the young guys don’t develop then yeah, I think it’s more likely he makes the Gasol trade. But why make the trade to add young talent, and refuse to trade Shumpert, if that’s not “a big part of what we’re trying to do here.”

    88. Here’s the thing about Amare. Even though it didn’t look like it in the Woodson iso system, he’s a team guy.
      He’s going to soak up PJ’s triangle lectures like a sponge and give it his all. He moves without the ball and is a far more willing passer than Melo. He’s used to being the number one option, and he’ll change his game to be a strong second option. If he stays healthy, you’re going to see shades of one of the best players in the league a few years ago.

      His one-on-one defense is bad His help defense is good, especially from the weak side near the rim sliding over to block shots.

    Comments are closed.