Julius Randle, The Knicks’ Cryptocurrency Paradox

The New York Knicks have a 21st century problem, and it’s one best described with a 21st century analogy. I’m not going to go into a lengthy summary of Randle’s history with New York. I’ll sum it up, with bullet points (21st century style):

  • The Knicks sign Randle, a basic PF, in 2019 on a short term/low risk deal.
  • In his second year, Randle is lit, becomes an All Star, and makes the All-NBA 2nd team.
  • Somewhat thirsty Knicks extend his contract until 2026.
  • Boujee Randle acts sus, ghosts the media.
  • Thibs sips tea.
  • Twitter throws shade at Randle with clips of his exploits.

That said, the Knicks have a dilemma — what to do with their star player? There’s a chorus of fans hoping New York trades Randle, which they can do between February 3rd and 10th. And maybe they should, except for one thing: given Julius’ recent play, the Knicks would get pennies on the dollar. For some, sending Randle, a potential All Star/All NBA player to another team for little in return is unappetizing. Should the team wait until Randle reverts to a better version of himself, and therefore get better assets in return?

Let’s assume for a second that some time ago, you invested some money in Cryptocurrency: Randle-Coin. Now you didn’t think much of it, but all of a sudden you open your online wallet, and your investment doubled. Great! What do you do with it? You could sell your Randle-Coin, and take that money and invest it elsewhere. However you assume that the money you withdraw will probably make less in whatever you put it in (bank, stocks, Fabergé eggs, etc.) than if you just keep that money in Randle-Coin. So you keep your investment as is currently stands. Next day you look, and Randle-Coin has taken a huge dip, and is only worth what you originally bought it for. Or maybe it’s worth less than that. What do you do then?

Selling seems like a bad idea, because Randle-Coin was just worth double that, and it’s possible that it could rise again. For a moment, let’s assume you hold your investment, and Randle-Coin does in fact increase in value. What do you do with the money? Well now since it’s increased, you’re back where you were a short while ago, when you decided to leave the money in crypto because it could go up again. So you don’t cash-in, and you keep your Randle-Coin…

See the paradox? When the value of something is lower than you expect, you won’t sell (buy low, sell high!). But if the value of that thing increases, you won’t sell, because THE GAINZ!

Let’s bring this back to Julius. Let’s assume the Knicks don’t depart with him now, because the price is too low. And if they don’t trade him, should Randle’s value increase, they’re not likely to depart with him, because he’s too valuable to them! In other words why on Earth would you trade Randle if he returns to his 2020-2021 form?

So in a way it doesn’t make sense to wait and see with Randle, because if he turns the corner and suddenly starts playing well, the Knicks won’t want to depart with him. And of course, we’re making a big assumption here — that Randle can/will revert to his better self for the duration of his contract. I’d like to assume the issue with Randle isn’t physical. There’s no indication that his lackluster play is a result of an injury of some sort. And even if that were the case, it wouldn’t describe the bizarre non-play aspects of his downturn. Randle has been exhibiting a number of mental effects: hiding from the media, the thumbs down, not being neighborly to his teammates, his mental lapses on defense, etc.

In short, the Knicks are in a must-sell situation. Either before the deadline or over the summer, they must trade Randle. Given the history of NBA stars that have self-imploded, it’s unlikely that Randle returns to an All-NBA caliber player. His ceiling his likely a supplement to a team that’s already winning, not the centerpiece of one that’s trying to get to .500. Additionally Randle’s sabotage isn’t just harming himself, he’s hurting his team with his lackluster play over 35+ minutes, and the poor habits he exhibits on a nightly basis in front of his impressionable young teammates. New York has a plethora of young talent that could fill the void of Randle’s minutes, shot taking, and leadership.

While the Knicks probably won’t get much in return in a Randle trade, but they’d still have a lot to gain on the tail end of this season by doing so.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

94 thoughts to “Julius Randle, The Knicks’ Cryptocurrency Paradox”

  1. There are some cognitive biases in play for Knicks fans. It’s interesting to see what a gigantic reversal there has been in both Randle’s performance, attitude, and in public perception of him. It’s flipflopped completely from the day before the Atlanta series started.

    I’d gladly unload him but I am very skeptical anyone would want to take him on right now.

  2. I don’t think we should worry about whether Randle’s price is going to go up or down.

    We should worry about calculating his “intrinsic value” as a basketball player.

    How good is?

    What is a fair price for that production?

    Beyond that, does he fit with the kind of team we are trying to build, can he handle NY pressure, does he have a good attitude, is he a high basketball IQ player etc..?

    IMO his intrinsic value is somewhere between what he did last year and what he did in the previous year. I’m not a GM. So putting an exact salary on “x” production is not what I do, but I suspect his original contract was more fair than the current extension.

    Basketball wise, he’s a ball stopper that is clearly not suited to being a #1 or maybe even #2 option and you surely don’t want run the offense through him. Since I personally would rather we build a team with high basketball IQ ball movers and defenders than can handle the heat, I’d say we should move on from him.

    If we can’t get back a good return for him because teams think he’s overpaid at the extension salary (26m next year), they are probably right, But I don’t think we should be sitting around hoping he reverts back to all star Randle. That’s not his intrinsic value as a player. It’s lower. We should probably just admit the extension may have been a small overpay and realize we might not get back what we want. But that shouldn’t stop us from moving on if a deal comes along that improves our situation.

  3. I would be fine trading Randle for pennies on the dollar at this point as long as we aren’t attaching assets to get rid of him. But if it’s expiring contracts and a late first or something low like that, do it. Here is my reasoning.

    1. Randle didn’t cost us anything to get him except cap space. He signed as a free agent and was resigned by us. So it’s really just the cap space we’re giving up to get rid of him. It shouldn’t make a difference, but if we had traded young players and picks for him, it might make sense to see if we can make it work before trading him. But we didn’t, so it’s not like we lost out by getting him in the first place.

    2. I thought Randle could eventually be the second or third option on a contending team but ultimately, I looked at the Randle extension as a transition period while we waited for RJ, IQ, Mitch, Obi to get better and reach their prime years. Ultimately, my hope was Randle would play close to what he did last year, we’d be in the playoffs and then eventually we would either get a big star to be the main guy in free agency OR Randle would be traded as the main piece to acquire that star. So I didn’t ultimately think Randle was 100 percent going to be part of the next contending Knicks team. So if we trade him now, we’re just trading him earlier than I thought we would.

    Ultimately, if we’re not losing assets to trade him and we can get out from that contract, I think at this point it’s the right move. Maybe he does just need a change of scenery? But I think his attitude at this point has cost him the ability to right the ship here in NYC. IT sucks but whatcha gonna do? I also think that he does still have value around the league and teams could be convinced that he’s a good buy low risk.

  4. Owen: I’d gladly unload him but I am very skeptical anyone would want to take him on right now.

    I think this is the appeal of trading for Westbrook. The Lakers are almost certainly more desperate to appease LeBron by moving Westbrook than we are to move Randle. I’m not sure there’s a more sensible distressed asset trade.

    I’m less certain our FO is that desperate. Do they think Randle can rehab his value over the next couple years?

  5. I could definitely see Randle playing better on another team, especially one that already has some established alphas in place, where he can go back to being the NOLA-era complementary battering ram. It just doesn’t feel like it can happen here anymore. It would be one thing if he just wasn’t playing well, like Lin post-Linsanity. It’s that his attitude is so terrible, and that our coach is clearly not going to do anything about it. He just can’t be here anymore. I don’t care what we get back.

  6. I’ve never been able to root for people who are outwardly egotistical, pouty, etc. If they’ve tried to reach out to him but he’s just incorrigible, then sure, trade him.

    I can also understand that they might not want to just give him away for little to nothing, but the old “addition by subtraction” theory might need to be in play here.

  7. The Knicks once had a left handed power forward former all star. They traded him for pennies on the dollar. In fact, they traded him for less than pennies on the dollar. They traded him for a broken heart. A literal broken heart. And when the Knicks found out the heart was broken, and thus useless to them, they said “we’ll do the trade anyway”. That left handed power forward former all star went on to become an all star again. And the Knicks didn’t even care cause that left handed power forward former all star was just bad to have around.

  8. ***But none of those 28 teams are likely going to give them anything for Eric Bledsoe, Keon Johnson, and a 2028 draft pick. That’s a pretty shitty trade package unless you happen to have a disgruntled all star who just signed an extension. With that in mind, it does boil down to that.***

    Hubert, I’ll admit you’ve thought about this more than I have, and care about the outcome more than I do. I don’t know what the Clippers options are. I think Jerry West is still involved with it, though, and it’s hard to imagine them bringing in somebody who is so expensive and whose contract runs through 2026. So though the return on the Bledsoe/Keon Johnson/future picks might be lower than what Randle brings them this year, I think Jerry West would likely prefer a lesser but cheaper player. Maybe an Eric Gordon, or Terrence Ross, or Thaddeus Young, or somebody in that tier, who can provide immediate production to help carry them through the injury wave, without adding another franchise level contract.

  9. Donnie Walsh:
    The Knicks once had a left handed power forward former all star. They traded him for pennies on the dollar. In fact, they traded him for less than pennies on the dollar. They traded him for a broken heart. A literal broken heart. And when the Knicks found out the heart was broken, and thus useless to them, they said “we’ll do the trade anyway”. That left handed power forward former all star went on to become an all star again. And the Knicks didn’t even care cause that left handed power forward former all star was just bad to have around.

    I love Z-Bo… I actually thought he kinda turned himself around… and his stint with us was sorta when the “personal” turnaround started… maybe i’m mistaken…

    all hail cuttino mobley…

  10. Donnie,

    I assume you’re talking about Zach Randolph?

    The thing is after Zach left the Knicks he had to do two stints in Portland and with The Clippers where he was pretty bad. It wasn’t until he went to Memphis and paired up with Gasol that he was able to revive his career with the grit and grind squads. But it’s not like we traded him to Memphis and he immediately became an all-star again. He clearly had some maturing and growing up to do and it took a few more seasons after he left The Knicks for that to happen.

  11. I love Z-Bo… I actually thought he kinda turned himself around… and his stint with us was sorta when the “personal” turnaround started… maybe i’m mistaken…

    Ha, i thought the passage was about David Lee, in part because I couldn’t remember what kind of injury Azubuike had.

    Also: is it weird that we’ve had three left-handed starting power forwards (all All-Stars at least once, though only two of them were All-Stars with us) in this century, or does the position attract lots of southpaws?

  12. I don’t know what the Clippers options are. I think Jerry West is still involved with it, though, and it’s hard to imagine them bringing in somebody who is so expensive and whose contract runs through 2026. So though the return on the Bledsoe/Keon Johnson/future picks might be lower than what Randle brings them this year, I think Jerry West would likely prefer a lesser but cheaper player.

    I think this is wrong for a few reasons. First of all the team is deep in cap hell no matter what they do, so getting someone a bit cheaper than Randle doesn’t really make them any more flexible. For that reason if they think Randle is the best player they can get with that pupu platter, I think they pull the trigger. They might actually prefer acquiring someone signed for a while as opposed to a rental type, because again, they really don’t have much of an ability to improve their team after this.

    The counterargument would be that if they think Randle is only a little better than a much cheaper option, they might go for the cheaper option for luxury tax savings. That brings me to my second point though, which is that their owner is Steve Ballmer. Need I say more?

    Of course, this all assumes the Clippers conclude Randle really is the best player they can get with the package. That’s probably true if they make the major assumption they can get him to return to his LAL/NOP style of play, but who knows how they feel about that.

  13. Now that Z-Man has posted yet another beat writer saying this is a possibility, I suppose he’s blessed us all with his tacit permission to discuss the topic so I’ll just add to this well-written piece that there are a few teams that are uniquely positioned to be both willing and able to trade for Randle right now (i.e. both LA teams), and it’s far from a guarantee that remains the case after this deadline.

    Randle’s salary will increase rather substantially, there will be more options available to teams in the offseason, and assuming (accurately, I think) that Randle doesn’t make a major turnaround in the second half his value will only decrease.

    If we don’t trade him at this deadline, my prediction is we wind up attaching assets to dump him at some point.

  14. Randle also has a 15% trade kicker. Not sure if that applies to his current deal, to the extension, or both. But that could complicate things. We may need to wait for the 3rd to figure this out, because we can’t put him into the Trade Machine until then.

  15. Guys, Randle has been bad for us this season but he is still a very very good basketball player and is probably one of the better players out there that is available in this trade market. Yeah, it’s 4 years but that could be a good thing depending on the team and he is still in his prime. The attitude has been a problem but he has been a very productive player for most of his career and had a second team all-nba season jsut last year. This is not oladipo because he is healthy. It’s an attitude/change of scenery situation (so yeah, I guess kind of like Z-bo).

    Randle grabs 10 plus boards a game and can score 30 plus on any given night. He can stretch the floor reasonably well and provide solid defense when engaged. He could be a very big upgrade for certain teams.

    We see him every night, so we’re down on him. But he is a load to deal with.

  16. I was into Fox but the poor shooting worries me. Are we just trading for a more expensive, better Elfrid?

    I’m just so wary of us trading for a PG who can’t shoot 3’s. Seems like a requirement in the modern NBA that your point guard can stretch the floor with outside shooting. A PG who can’t shoot 3’s means you have to really build a unique starting 5 to get the most out of them. And then you have the fact that RJ can be inconsistent too from deeep. I don’t know. It seems DICEY.

  17. Fox’s contract is pretty undesirable, and of course he can’t shoot. I would rather HODL Randle than pay DeAaron Fox $35M per year, even if he does “solve” the PG problem.

  18. Alan, I was thinking the same thing. We trade too many all-star PFs for players with career ending injuries. What is Randle but a combination of Rand(olph) and Le(e)??? Big body, excellent rim roller early in his career, and eventually learns to shoot/pass.

    New prediction: We trade Randle for MPJr who never suits up for another NBA team.

  19. Donnie Walsh: The Knicks once had a left handed power forward former all star. They traded him for pennies on the dollar. In fact, they traded him for less than pennies on the dollar. They traded him for a broken heart. A literal broken heart. And when the Knicks found out the heart was broken, and thus useless to them, they said “we’ll do the trade anyway”. That left handed power forward former all star went on to become an all star again. And the Knicks didn’t even care cause that left handed power forward former all star was just bad to have around.

    This was about ZBo? I was over here trying to figure out which of the players we traded for Eddy Curry you were talking about.

  20. I wouldn’t sign Fox to that contract, so I also wouldn’t trade for him. Opportunity cost is a real thing.

  21. DudeInKnicksTown: I don’t even like Fox, but I like a 2027 lottery ticket even less.

    Why? Future 1st round picks can be very valuable, even if they’re far in the future. The best current players on the Lakers and Clippers would all be in their late 30s/early40s/retired by the time the pick is due. We could get a really nice piece. In 2004, we traded a future 1st round pick for Marbury that didn’t come due until 2011. Utah somehow ended up with it and they drafted Gordon Hayward. Wouldn’t it be nice to benefit from a trade like this for once?

  22. thenoblefacehumper: Now that Z-Man has posted yet another beat writer saying this is a possibility, I suppose he’s blessed us all with his tacit permission to discuss the topic

    It would be nice to leave any beef in the thread in which it occurred, but alas someone must feel so deeply aggrieved…

  23. It’s very much a debatable question, but I’d trade Randle for Fox ten times out of ten. I wouldn’t add material assets to Randle so it’d probably be a no from the Kings’ side, but if they were really willing to do a one-for-one swap I think you have to do it.

    I will admit that my reasoning is at least partially irrational, as we’re an absolute bore to watch right now outside of the bench minutes and Fox is fun to watch. He is also, for all of his warts, very much a point guard, and we haven’t had one of those in my lifetime. However I think there’s a rational case for it too.

    Until this season Fox was doing nothing but improving, and even this season his drop-off has been of the more normal variance variety–not Randleian. I know this is something we’re all sick of hearing and rightfully so, but…he’s legitimately a 3PT shot away from being a very good player. So a lot of this comes down to whether you think it’ll ever come around or not, and I have to think he can get to at least competence. He did have that anomalous 37% season, and his FT% (on very high volume, because he gets to the line a lot) isn’t a total disaster.

    If he never does, I still don’t think his contract has the albatross potential Randle’s does. He’s good at too many things for no one to want a flyer on a young point guard, I think.

  24. I like a 2027 lottery ticket even less

    I don’t get this. Fox ties up a lot of cap for a PG who can’t shoot. Trading Randle for expirings and a 2027 first means you can go after Brunson this off season and then in a few years when you least expect it, that first round pick comes due. And it could be a good one cause the Clips and Lakers could be crap by then.

    Imagine we’re a good playoff team in 2027 with RJ and the youngsters in their prime. We got some all-stars and the team is capped out and then we get a top 10 pick from The Lakers to add to that team.

  25. We did beat the Celtics a couple times.

    I hate Fox. I guess there is a case we’d be better off with him. But seems like a lateral move at best for a player who is just as frustrating to watch, if in a different way.

  26. JK47:
    I wouldn’t sign Fox to that contract, so I also wouldn’t trade for him. Opportunity cost is a real thing.

    I agree with your point on opportunity cost, but arguably Randle is also overpaid at 26m for next year, especially based on what he’s giving us now. So we’d be swapping one overpay for another. So it comes down to which one is more overpaid, by how much, and which overpay you would rather have on your team.

    I’m not making a case for it. I don’t particularly like either option.

  27. ***is it weird that we’ve had three left-handed starting power forwards (all All-Stars at least once, though only two of them were All-Stars with us) in this century, or does the position attract lots of southpaws?***

    There was Othella Harrington and Lee Nailon too.

    [edited to add: I kind of hate myself for knowing that just off the top of my head.]

  28. Alan: Ha, i thought the passage was about David Lee, in part because I couldn’t remember what kind of injury Azubuike had.

    my gut said Z-Bo… but i did think about David Lee… but then the part about not wanting to have him around because of who he was… that didnt strike me as the affable David Lee… Then I googled “azubuike” and “heart” and nothing really came up so I knew it was the other guy… but i forgot who the other guy was… but google got me there… we saved his life… but yea… i actually did love Zbo’s game… I know he had his limitations but he was a really solid player… and i liked the team that year because we were hovering at 500 when he was traded… actually winning games brought a smile to my face… salary dumps did not.

  29. If we traded Randle for expiring contracts and a 1st round pick, that wouldn’t be the worst outcome. I don’t think the short term step back would even be all that significant. Randle may be better than he’s giving us now, but what he’s giving us now sucks. We’d lose some versatility with Obi starting, but I don’t think it would be a disaster and may turn out to be a plus fairly quickly depending on who we get back. Cam could then also play some smallball PF as well as wing.

  30. Don’t assume that the L.A. teams will necessarily be bad in 2027. Free agents love the sunshine there.

  31. Expiring contracts is the way to go. I don’t see anyone on this Knicks roster that is going to be a #1 guy. We still need the flexibility to acquire that player, so replacing one bad contract with another isn’t ideal.

    Additionally, I’d rather get no one back and use that time to see how the young kids fare. Given Thibs proclivity to play the vets, I’d rather strip the cupboard bare and force him to give the neophytes some run.

  32. Mike Kurylo:
    Expiring contracts is the way to go. I don’t see anyone on this Knicks roster that is going to be a #1 guy. We still need the flexibility to acquire that player, so replacing one bad contract with another isn’t ideal.

    Additionally, I’d rather get no one back and use that time to see how the young kids fare. Given Thibs proclivity to play the vets, I’d rather strip the cupboard bare and force him to give the neophytes some run.

    Neophytes is one of my favorite words. Where has Clyde been lately?

  33. If Thibs goes against management’s wishes to play the neophytes and the only method of accomplishing it is to trade all of the veterans away then we need a new coach.

  34. We may need to wait for the 3rd to figure this out, because we can’t put him into the Trade Machine until then.

    With this one you can turn off the Recently Signed Restriction. The kicker doesn’t appear to apply to his current contract, but it’s quite possible Fanspo just has that wrong.

  35. Expiring contracts is the way to go. I don’t see anyone on this Knicks roster that is going to be a #1 guy. We still need the flexibility to acquire that player, so replacing one bad contract with another isn’t ideal.

    I agree. Fox is not a superstar or even a star. He’s a good, young but flawed PG, who has potential but also pitfalls. Not worth tying up that much money when we’re getting rid of a guy who has flaws and ties up cap space. If we are trading Randle, Fournier and some of the vets, the goal should be to bring back expiring contracts and whatever picks we can (whenever they come due), so we have cap space and more picks to either sign a star in free agency, some sold young players in free agency and add more picks to the cupboard for a potential super star trade.

  36. Thinking about the LA teams. How wild is it that the only reason the Clippers have now become a destination is bc Stern nixed a CP3 to the Lakers trade?

    Like even with Blake they were not a playoff team. CP3 made them a contender and then also allowed them to bring back assets when they traded him to Houston. And that allowed them to get Kawhi and sign PG.

    None of that happens if CP3 goes to The Lakers. Instead they would have wasted Blake’s best years and would probably still be a joke. Stern hooked them up.

  37. My brain probably agree that expirings > Fox but my heart still leans in the other direction. Fox does some really cool stuff on basketball courts!

  38. I think it is worth taking a swing on Fox. He isn’t perfect, if he was he’d be unavailable but he is a career 31.4% 3pt shooter on decent volume and a career 72.2% shooter in very high volume. These are much better than someone like Payton and I think give hope he can still develop as a shooter.

    He is also a true PG with legitimate all-star potential and is only 24. He is overpaid and it could go sideways but I would rather go in on a slightly overpaid, flawed player with all-star potential than slightly overpay for a merely serviceable starting PG like Brunson.

    Don’t get me wrong I would be very happy getting Brunson but all things being equal I would rather roll the dice with Fox. We need home runs and triples, base hits wont get us there.

  39. I get this icky feeling that all this Brunson hype has turned into a religion of sorts… not necessarily on this thread… just generally speaking… maybe its died down a bit though too… im just not as infatuated with the guy… relatively speaking, maybe…

  40. I think the thing that turns me off about Fox is that he was hyped as a plus defender coming out of college but now he’s known as not a good defender. I know he is still young but that worries me.

    I mean, he would be exciting for sure. And having a last name like Fox is certainly cool.

  41. I get this icky feeling that all this Brunson hype has turned into a religion of sorts… not necessarily on this thread… just generally speaking… maybe its died down a bit though too… im just not as infatuated with the guy… relatively speaking, maybe…

    Nobody answered my question yesterday about how good Brunson actually is, especially as a playmaker. We have a million combo guards, but until Deuce or (next year) Rokas proves otherwise, our only real point guards are a pair of old men, one of whom isn’t likely long for this roster.

  42. I think Brunson is very good but not great. Nice guy to have on a reasonable deal. Not necessarily someone you want to pay up for in trade assets or salary but someone you would be supremely happy to have drafted and developed. Nothing new in that opinion.

    They are different players but I think Brunson’s production is what you would realistically aspire to get with Fox. I mean, you can really dream on Fox. His end to end athleticism is remarkable. But the numbers so far are underwhelming.

    I kind of feel like Fox ends up more Schroeder than any kind of star. But could be completely wrong. His player type triggers me.

  43. Alan: Nobody answered my question yesterday about how good Brunson actually is, especially as a playmaker. We have a million combo guards, but until Deuce or (next year) Rokas proves otherwise, our only real point guards are a pair of old men, one of whom isn’t likely long for this roster.

    i mean… i like what i see generally speaking, but he doesnt seem like this explosive playmaker… hopefully hes ALOT better than his father… he seems like a sound, solid player, which I’m not discounting… but… ill leave it at that…

  44. Until this season Fox was doing nothing but improving, and even this season his drop-off has been of the more normal variance variety–not Randleian.

    This is why I really don’t totally understand his availability. Wasn’t he considered totally untouchable coming into this season? Has there been any rumors out of Sac about why they seem so suddenly so open to dealing him?

  45. I’m not remotely sold on Brunson.

    As to Fox, I think the Kings are just sort of stuck and it makes sense from their perspective to shake things up. Plus Fox is somewhat redundant with Hali.

    I actually think there’s a decent chance Fox winds up here. Never sell short the Kentucky connection.

  46. @wojespn
    ESPN Sources: Utah Jazz F Joe Ingles has suffered a season-ending torn left ACL. Ingles, 34, was found to have no other structural damage in his left knee.

    Burks for Ingles’ expiring contract (plus some kind of pick, I imagine) works under the salary cap. This also assumes Utah would want to give up Ingles’ Bird rights, depending on the severity of the injury and their belief that he can come back from it at his age.

  47. If, on the other hand, Utah doesn’t want to trade Ingles, I’m not sure there’s a deal to be had between us, as the other guys in range are Bogdanovich, Clarkson, and O’Neal, all of them part of the rotation and signed for several more seasons. The Jazz’s goal would be to add a player, not lose one.

    Anyone know the rules on trade exceptions? I know they can’t be combined with a player, but the Jazz have one for about $7.5 million (from the Derrick Favors deal) and Burks makes about 9.5 mil. Is that doable?

  48. I thought Donnie was talking about Eddy Curry. Wow, how many other team have traded for TWO guys with a broken heart?

  49. Nobody answered my question yesterday about how good Brunson actually is, especially as a playmaker.

    I’m a Luka-stan so I watch Brunson a lot. He would be the best PG the Knicks had since at least Derek Harper…good strong rim atacker / doesn’t get blocked ala RJ, low TO, can create for him self and others…above average shooter, takes over if neceesery-and is given the ball :-)). His numbers are good since his rookie year. Somtimes has problems with athletic long defenders(but who doesen’t). His defense is nothing special . Shrunk a little in PO against Clippers. Plays harder and with more poise/confidence this year…contract year? Don’t think Mavs will want to ship him. They have no other player that can help Luka orcestrate. Luka needs Brunson.

  50. Hubert:
    I thought Donnie was talking about Eddy Curry. Wow, how many other team have traded for TWO guys with a broken heart?

    NBA Champion, Eddy Curry

  51. Nobody answered my question yesterday about how good Brunson actually is, especially as a playmaker.

    I always liked Brunson, he’s a baller, he understand the game, high-IQ, has a knack for big shots, he’s a lefty (always a plus for me) and he’s a dogged defender with clear issues due to his size. He can be targeted in the playoffs.
    He was so underrated that now he’s probably overrated.
    He’s a great player to have has a second rounder with a low contract, at 4/100 he’s an overpay.
    He’ll be our best PG in a while but I think Dallas will try to keep him at all cost (they’re dangling THJR to free money).

    I loved Fox in college (when he did obliterate Lonzo Ball for 39 points in the sweet-16) for some time he seemed on the path to stardom then he stopped, I don’t know if he start dodging it or Walton worked his reverse magic.
    Another lefty, he’s not a shooter but his speed is exciting, maybe with the right coach and the mentoring of Rose he can find his mojo again?

    His contract is huge and Sacramento drafted Hali and Mitchell in consecutive draft, making him somewhat redundant but recently they declared they don’t want to trade him.

    I’m not against trading for him and/or Barnes if we can get rid of Randle and some other veterans.

  52. Thanks, Slovene Knick. Better than Marburg? That he was awful, but he was a good point guard still for most of it.

  53. Thanx, Slovene_Knick. I have that impression, but i don’t watch Mavs games, so i wasn’t “eligible” to answer Alan. :D

    Some of Brunson’s numbers:
    AST% 29.1 (good for first if on the Knicks, our top players are DRose at 27.8 and Randle at 24.2)
    AST36 6.4 (good for first if on the Knicks, our top players are DRose at 5.8 and McBride at 5.6)
    AST/TO 3.4 (good for second if on the Knicks, Deuce manages to be at 8.0 but in a very small sample size of 148 mins; DRose is next at 2.6)

    And some season highlights:
    https://youtu.be/iV_UQ7rcmQM
    He looks like a scoring guard, but the dishes on the video show some potential there too.

  54. I have not watched Brunson at all, and so I can’t comment on what he looks like.

    He’s definitely gone from under the radar to everyone wants him. But I think he’s getting market value for a PG. There aren’t enough good PGs/playmakers in the league. Mediocre wings & bigs are a dime a dozen, mediocre PGs are scarce. I wouldn’t want to give up too much in a trade, but as a FA I’d be willing to let him set the market.

  55. KJG: NBA Champion, Eddy Curry

    Has he pawned the ring, yet?

    Yeah, sure on Fox. The speculation at least makes tonight’s game a bit more intriguing

  56. Haha…Marburg is original german name for my home town :)) Was that his nick?
    Stephon was all flash, slick as hell, better player probably. Jalen is as Max said higher IQ player.

  57. slovene knick:

    I’m a Luka-stan

    Another Luka-stan since his Real days here :-)

    Do you think he’s rounding into form (after starting the season way out of shape) and he’s ready to give us a playoffs to remember?

  58. Speaking of euro prospects,
    20 minutes yesterday for Rokas, 10 points (2-2 FG 1-2 3FG, 5-6 FT), 2 Reb, 2 Ast.
    He’s 6-6 from the field in his last 2 games (1 EL, 1 ACB).
    He’s consistently playing 18-22 minutes on a powerhouse, and playing well, but he’s far from what Luka was before the draft (and Luka was younger). Let’s hope, not dream (young Goran Dragic is still a good comp for him).

  59. Alan: Anyone know the rules on trade exceptions? I know they can’t be combined with a player, but the Jazz have one for about $7.5 million (from the Derrick Favors deal) and Burks makes about 9.5 mil. Is that doable?

    Per Larry Coon: A rule of thumb is that a trade exception can only be used to acquire a player making up to the amount of the exception plus $100,000.

  60. Max, I hope he is in top shape for Eurobasket:))…but don’t think he will have the balls to come to play and Cuban will explode if he goes.

    He’ll be just fine come playoff time(he kind of has this strategy of being overveight – so the regular season marathom doesent get to his substance-IDK , like oposite of what KP did with the Knicks maybe) , but if doesen’t dich his bon vivant alter ego he will never reach the potential he has.

  61. The reason Sacramento wants to trade Fox is Haliburton. In the 8 games Fox has missed, Haliburton has averaged 21.75 pts and 9.75 asts while shooting over 50% from the field and from 3pt.

    I think they are ready to make this Haliburton’s team and Fox is an obstacle to that.

    When I look at Fox I see John Wall or even pre-injury Derrick Rose. If you compare stats it’s pretty similar:
    Ages 20-24 per 36:
    Fox – 21.1 pts – 7.0 asts – 4.0 rebs – 1.5 stls – 3.2 tos – 50.1% 2pt – 31.4% 3pt – 72.2% FT – 53.9% TS
    Rose – 20.5 pts – 6.6 asts – 3.8 rebs – 0.8 stls – 2.9 tos – 48.5% 2pt – 31.2% 3pt – 81.5% FT – 53.2% TS
    Wall – 17.6 pts – 8.7 asts – 4.4 rebs – 1.6 stls – 3.7 tos – 45.1 2pt – 30.5% 3pt – 78.9% FT – 51.4% TS

    I would be excited to see Fox running with RJ, Obi, and Grimes and I think it would be an exciting team. Plus, if Thibs can get him to defend it could be an interesting pairing. He is far from perfect and definitely not as good as prime Rose (just similar) but he is exactly the kind of PG Thibs likes and the exact type of player to help get the most out of Obi and help RJ stick to his strengths. This team needs to run and Fox will do exactly that.

  62. cybersoze:
    @Max: Do you think Rokas can be our backup PG as soon as next season?

    When I watched him live a couple of months ago I thought he would be ready for 2023-2024.
    He progressed nicely since then and maybe he’ll be ready sooner, but I’d probably rather want him to have a “dominant” euro season before coming here.

  63. Snippets from Marc Stein’s latest newsletter:

    “League sources say there are no active trade discussions between the Mavericks and the New York Knicks, for example, despite the Knicks’ well-chronicled interest in luring Brunson to Gotham. I’m told that the oft-suggested notion of trading Brunson to the Knicks to reacquire the 2023 first-round pick owed to New York to complete the Kristaps Porzingis trade is not currently under consideration in Dallas. The Mavericks regard Brunson as too vital to this season’s aspirations to trade him and retain the belief that he wants to be a Maverick long-term.

    (On free agency)
    The Knicks, meanwhile, won’t be able to create that sort of space for Brunson without shedding multiple contracts.
    The will to sign Brunson is certainly tangible at Madison Square Garden. Knicks president of basketball operations Leon Rose not only used to rep Brunson in his CAA days but also counts Jalen’s father, Rick Brunson, as his first-ever NBA client. Rose’s son Sam works for CAA and has a notable presence within Team Brunson.
    Yet the Knicks’ means to sign Brunson, at present, are another matter entirely.”

  64. Max: When I watched him live a couple of months ago I thought he would be ready for 2023-2024.
    He progressed nicely since then and maybe he’ll be ready sooner, but I’d probably rather want him to have a “dominant” euro season before coming here.

    Thanx, Max. That looks like a good plan, and probably we’re going to keep DRose around, so he wouldn’t be backup but 3rd stringer.

  65. Ben R: The reason Sacramento wants to trade Fox is Haliburton. In the 8 games Fox has missed, Haliburton has averaged 21.75 pts and 9.75 asts while shooting over 50% from the field and from 3pt.

    I think they are ready to make this Haliburton’s team and Fox is an obstacle to that.

    God that hurts to read.

  66. They also want to trade Fox because they gave him a really stupid contract extension and he absolutely cannot shoot. He’s Elfrid Payton.

  67. They also want to trade Fox because they gave him a really stupid contract extension and he absolutely cannot shoot. He’s Elfrid Payton.

    Last season, Fox put up 25-7-4 per-36 with a .565 TS%. I don’t think he’s Elfrid Payton.

  68. Haha…Marburg is original german name for my home town :)) Was that his nick?

    Damn you, autocorrect!!!!

  69. Ben R: I would be excited to see Fox running with RJ, Obi, and Grimes and I think it would be an exciting team. Plus, if Thibs can get him to defend it could be an interesting pairing. He is far from perfect and definitely not as good as prime Rose (just similar) but he is exactly the kind of PG Thibs likes and the exact type of player to help get the most out of Obi and help RJ stick to his strengths. This team needs to run and Fox will do exactly that.

    I’m going to bookmark your comment to come back to read it if we trade for Fox. ;)
    But for me the best plan is to trade for expiring money to have cap room to sign Brunson. Fox’s contract has a level of albatross potential that i don’t feel comfortable about. And because we’re the Knicks, of course that potential would be fulfilled here.

  70. Speaking of Fox, i wanted Fox in the 2017 NBA Draft, but then a sequence of knicksy stuff happened. Like NDour making the 2P that made us be in a tie for 6th, losing the coin flip and last but not least to have a team behind us jump to 3rd (Sixers). In the end we picked 8th, Fox was on the rise and out of our reach, and for the cherry on top we let our POBO make the pick, although he was on his way out. The old (?) lolKnicks.

  71. cybersoze: I’m going to bookmark your comment to come back to read it if we trade for Fox. ;)
    But for me the best plan is to trade for expiring money to have cap room to sign Brunson. Fox’s contract has a level of albatross potential that i don’t feel comfortable about. And because we’re the Knicks, of course that potential would be fulfilled here.

    How many desirable free agents have come here? Assuming that Brunson will is probably overly optimistic.

  72. Fox is a better shooter than Payton and has given me many more reasons to be optimistic about improving from 3.

    Payton has shot less than 35% from 10-16 and from 16-23 with a 28.6% 3pt% on less than 2 shots per 36
    and a 62.9% FT%.

    Fox has shot 42.0% from 10-16 and 39.1% from 16-23 in his career and almost 45% from both over the last 3 years. Fox also has shot 31.4% from 3 on 3.9 shots per 36 with a 72.2% FT%.

    HIs better midrange shooting, free-throw shooting, and jump shot volume all give me much more reason to be hopeful about improvement. Plus he is a considerably better all-around scorer than Payton ever was.

    As for Haliburton, I am with you Vincoug it hurts to see those stats but I am happy with Obi so I try not to focus too much on what should have been. Though it would certainly be nice to have him on the Knicks.

    WIth Brunson, I would love to get him but he is still very much a moving target and even if we clear up space for him he might not sign with us or might go for more than we want to pay.

  73. DudeInKnicksTown: How many desirable free agents have come here? Assuming that Brunson will is probably overly optimistic.

    There’s a lot of connections between the Knicks (team, coach, FO) and Brunson. We can clear money to offer the 4/100M contract that probably no other team will outbid. I think we have more chances than the usual pipe dreams of the past (Lebron, KD).

    Edit: But yeah, he’s in a good situation, so if the Mavs’ offer is a good offer (not too far from the best offer), he might decide to stay put.

  74. Through Age 24, per 36

    Fox: 21-4-7, 1.5 steals, 4.2 TOV .456 FG%, .314 3pt%, 539TS%

    Payton: 13-5-8, 1.6 steals, 4.1 TOV 454 FG%, .302 3pt%, .499TS%

    The big difference between the 2 is Fox draws twice as many fouls and is a decent FT shooter. Elfrid didn’t generate fouls and was a shit FT shooter. Fox is a bit better of a player because of that but they are remarkably similar otherwise.

  75. I agree with Ben R up there that there is reason to believe Fox will improve more than Elfrid did, and if he does he’d be a good player but he’s also making 38 million dollars for the 25-26 season. Would I swap Randle for him? I don’t know, that’s a tough one.

  76. I’m not entirely sold on Brunson being the starting PG on a championship contending team that’s running a PG centric offense. I like him, but he’s been coming off the bench for most of his career. Now that he’s in the starting lineup, he’s playing with Doncic. Before we go crazy trying to pry him away from Dallas with picks and other prospects, I would like to see more games where he’s the starting PG and Doncic is not on the court doing a lot of the playmaking. I think I like him more as a FA paying a small premium in salary than giving up quality assets for him.

    I think Fox has more potential upside on offense, but his contract is what you pay a legit two way star player. He’s not that now and I don’t think it’s highly likely he’s going to become that. With him, it’s not just about improving his outside shot. He doesn’t defend much either (at least this year). Even though I’m in the “move Randle if we can” camp and think he’s overpaid on his extension contract based on what he’s giving us now, that Fox contract could be quite a bit worse if he doesn’t improve.

    We are probably better off just looking for backup PG that can give us some minutes for the rest of the season assuming Thibs would even play him.

  77. Not to nitpick but Julius Randle is probably more like Peloton stock than crypto. Crypto is essentially betting on which way the wind will blow, whereas with both Randle and Peloton there is underlying evidence that strongly suggests their highs were unsustainable and that their current valuation is fair market value.

    In Randle’s case, he is unlikely to ever reproduce once-in-a-lifetime shooting numbers . And in Peloton’s case, they are unlikely to experience another stay at home mandate. In order for either of them to reach their highs again, Randle would have to become the best bad shot maker ever, and Peloton would need to figure out how to make their current product obsolete every two years like apple does with iphones.

    Now the Knicks have 4.5 years of Randle, and Peloton has warehouses full of unsold product. As a smart investor or Knicks GM, you can’t naively hope it will bounce back to a value it likely never deserved in the first place. You need to act decisively bc there is still a lot of potential loss.

    It’s a shockingly perfect analogy when you think about it.

  78. The big difference between the 2 is Fox draws twice as many fouls and is a decent FT shooter.

    8pts and 500 pts of ts is a pretty big difference. add that to brunson and he looks like steph

  79. I would definitely trade Randle for Fox. But I’d rather trade him for expiring contracts and picks.

    Fox isn’t ideal but he does some things very well and he fits us better than Randle does.

    I also agree with TNFH: at least he’ll be entertaining

  80. Fox: 21-4-7, 1.5 steals, 4.2 TOV .456 FG%, .314 3pt%, 539TS%

    Payton: 13-5-8, 1.6 steals, 4.1 TOV 454 FG%, .302 3pt%, .499TS%

    they are remarkably similar otherwise.

    This is just not the conclusion I draw from the statistical comparison. Fox scores a ton more, and does so way more efficiently. That’s…an absolutely enormous difference.

  81. It’s a shockingly perfect analogy when you think about it.

    hubert you know how i hate to one up the one upper and really i want to agree with you. but it would be crueler to let you go to sleep wrong. peloton’s ‘out with a bang’ seems maybe a little too high grade for our particular scary tale, it’s still basically sitting pretty with a $9b market cap and a license to make people miserable for $40 a month. we need something with a little less there there and a disturbingly good chance of imminent oblivion. and then i remember julius literally does the vroom commercials.

  82. Elfrid “The Plague” Payton, veteran minimum player, would love to be De’Aaron Fox, vastly overpaid…

  83. Interesting article on the Clippers in the Ringer just now on how they might be buyers or sellers. The writer also thinks they’re looking for a point guard, and goes through some of the possibilities out there, which is interesting given this discussion.

    The part that made me sad was this description of their coach, who is clearly not our coach:

    Ty Lue is able to experiment with his rotations. Everyone on his roster plays, and not just because of injuries or health-and-safety protocols. He has flexed his ability as one of the league’s top coaches at making midgame adjustments while managing a deep rotation featuring players with various skill sets.

  84. Our next 3 home games are against Sacto, Memphis and OKC

    So I would expect that to continue the eternal torture of Knicks fans, Hali and SGA will have monster games to remind us of who we could have picked, and Ja will posterize Mitch on his way to a 30-12-10 game to remind us that we missed him by one fucking lottery pick.

  85. An emphatic loss tonight could really cement our place as sellers at the deadline. Bring it home Julius!!!

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