Happy Holliday!

I hereby proclaim the Eighteenth of December of every year as Derek Fisher Day. This holiday, also known as Fisherday, will mark the day that the Knicks’ coach not only started Cole Aldrich, but the one in which he played the “Compiler Of Lost Events” for 25 minutes and 34 seconds. By allowing C.O.L.E. to exist on the court for such a duration, he was rewarded with 10 rebounds and 13 points.

Henceforth this day shall be honored by spending 25 minutes and 34 seconds picking up all the discarded things in our lives. Observers can gather their dirty laundry, clean under their beds, or tidy up the garage for less than half an hour. By doing this, the celebrated will surely receive “points” in return from their loved ones, whether that be spouse, girlfriend, or mother.

A Festive Fisherday to you all!

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

96 thoughts to “Happy Holliday!”

  1. Phil Jackson Ledger:

    CONS:
    > Failure to do S&T netting us Butler/Mirotic and ridding us of 1 or both of JR and Felton
    > Offering Melo the Max
    > Offering Melo No-Trade Clause
    > Trading away Chandler while intending to re-sign Melo
    > Hiring Son of Woodson
    > Triangle

    PROS
    > Re-signing Cole Aldrich

    Conclusion: It’s obvious, pro outweighs cons – Phil’s doing a superb job!

  2. A HOLIDAY CAROL – Spoiler: Cole’s In It!!

    On the first day of Christmas My true love sent to me
    A partridge in a pear tree.

    C’mon sing this!

    On the first day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    A Lance for a Smith and Timmy.

    On the second day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    A Lopez for Bargnani.

    On the third day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    A Deron for Amare.

    On the fourth day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    A Pick for Prigioni.

    On the fifth day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    Shump Shump for Anybody.

    On the sixth day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    No Nash No Nick and No Kobe.

    On the seventh day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    Aldrich for More than Twenty.

    On the eighth day of Christmas DOCTOR Phil hear my plea
    Surgery for Anthony.

    On the ninth day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    A Fish Tank adorned in Holly.

    On the tenth day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    A draft pick in the Top 3.
    Jahlil in a Knick jersey.
    That draft pick for a star 3.

    On the eleventh day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    Mister Jeffrey Van Gundy.

    On the twelfth day of Christmas Phil Jackson hear my plea
    Your 12th golden ring, Whoopee!

    One Lance-a-lopin', Lopez-a-leapin', Deron-a-dishin', Melo-a-meshin', Aldrich-a-huffin', Rudy?-a-rippin', VG-a-guidin', Dolan-a-disappearin'……..12 GOLDEN RINGZZZ.

  3. “trading away Chandler”
    I’ve heard a lot of people (here and in the media) saying that the Knicks shouldn’t have traded Chandler but everyone seems to forget one thing — he didn’t want to be here. No one mentions that, after the season, Chandler said that, at this point in his career, he did not want to be part of a rebuilding process. At best, if they hadn’t traded him, he probably would have moped through the season like he did last year and left at the end of the season for nothing. (He mailed it in when the team was winning 37 games; he wouldn’t have done the same or worse in this year’s train wreck of a season?) At least by trading him, the Knicks got Early and Antetekuompo. I have no idea whether those two guys will ever really develop but if, in two years, either of them is starting to look like Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard or Paul George (or Thanasis’s brother, for that matter), will everyone still be saying it was a bad idea to trade Chandler?

  4. Zanzibar – +1

    I think everyone understands the position we were in with Chandler. It would have been nice to get more but most people here understand we had very little leverage.

    It’s a little scary the only players I care about are Prigs and Cole. That’s it. Going to be a long season.

  5. Amare and Chandler in contract years. Chandler unhappy because of coaching which was about to change. Spend $3m on PG instead of Jason Smith. Run Spread PnR. East wide open. Not a throwaway year. BAD trade on Phil’s part.

  6. Phil Jackson Ledger:

    CONS:

    Failure to do S&T netting us Butler/Mirotic and ridding us of 1 or both of JR and Felton

    Sheesh, let’s slow down the revisionist history a bit, shall we?

    We know the Bulls had a lot of assets that would have been attractive but we have no idea what they would have been willing to part with in a trade. It was an error to not engage them and properly consider taking a package from them, but it’s not like they put a Boozer, Butler, Mirotic for Melo & Felton package on the table and we turned it down.

    I think the most we could have gotten from them this summer was Boozer, Mirotic, Snell, and (if we were lucky) draft picks. There was never any talk of them wanting to trade Butler or take back salary.

    But yes I wish we traded Melo to them for whatever we could have gotten.

  7. But, uh, yeah. Ainge seems to have gotten three times the deal for Rondo that Phil got for Tyson, and that really pisses me off. A lot. Because Tyson is a hell of a lot better (and plays a scarcer position) than Rondo, and even if you consider Tyson had a down year at least he had a year. Rondo hasn’t had a year since 2011 or something.

    The Rondo haul absolutely KILLS the Chandler haul, and that’s not good.

  8. “Spend $3m on PG instead of Jason Smith.”
    OK, I’ll bite — what game changing point guards were out there for $3 million?
    “East wide open.”
    You’re right! If the Knicks had played their cards right, they could have sneaked into the playoffs and gotten knocked out in the first round — and they would have had a draft pick that would have been no better than 19 or 20. Yay?
    “BAD trade on Phil’s part.”
    So, we’ve already concluded that Antetekuompo and Early are never going to amount to much? Let’s tear this sucker down and get draft picks because we are such a patient fan base…

  9. The Rondo haul absolutely KILLS the Chandler haul, and that’s not good.

    But don’t you see? Brandan Wright would not be the right player for the Triangle!

    Seriously, though. I think the Chandler trade is neither good nor bad. Were I to assign a grade to it, I’d say that a C would do. We got rid of the awful Felton contract, and we sent an expiring Tyson away getting something back. As I said before, the three problems in that trade are:

    – We got Calderon back. I like him (even though he’s currently MIA), but his contract is too long. He will be a good backup if we ever become a good team, and with the next TV-deal inflated salary cap he could be just slighly overpaid, but his contract is not good. Also, Calderon is not the guy you want if you really are intent on tanking.
    – Our two second round picks are not seeing NBA playing time. I know Early is hurt, but why can’t we call-up Thanasis and give him Acy’s minutes (while giving Acy J.Smith’s minutes)?
    – By giving up on Shane Larkin 3rd year option, we essentially waved him goodbye. He’s not good enough to win us some games, he’s absolutely not bad enough to lose us some games. So playing him makes no sense.

  10. I have no idea whether those two guys will ever really develop but if, in two years, either of them is starting to look like Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard or Paul George (or Thanasis’s brother, for that matter), will everyone still be saying it was a bad idea to trade Chandler?

    Yes, because Chandler could have gotten a future first rounder at the very least. Jackson, however, decided he’d rather get less future returns on Chandler in return for increasing the immediate return (which was getting rid of Felton and gaining Calderon). That was a bad call, whether the second round picks shockingly turn out to be good or not. Jackson has to be judged on the deal at the time, and at the time, he made a deal for 2014-15 when he should not have been doing so.

  11. Yeah, Butler was never in a million years going to be coming back in a Melo sign and trade to Chicago. And Mirotic was highly unlikely to be involved, either. The deal would have likely have been Boozer, Snell and two first rounders. I’d have preferred that to Melo at the mega max, but it wasn’t like it was some stunning offer.

  12. OK, I’ll bite — what game changing point guards were out there for $3 million

    Aaron Brooks on 1 year deal. Doesn’t have to be game changing. Remember a couple of years ago when we went to second round without Amare and a dunderhead as coach?

    You’re right! If the Knicks had played their cards right, they could have sneaked into the playoffs and gotten knocked out in the first round

    Are Cavs and Chicago juggernauts? Remember we went to 2nd round not so long ago without Amare. Better coaching and we might have made ECF. More likely is Melo’s knee is shot and this season would have been our best chance.

    So, we’ve already concluded that Antetekuompo and Early are never going to amount to much?

    Against odds. Best player in that deal for us was Ellington who we let go. More likely Melo’s knee’s shot and this seasonwould have been best chance.

    Sheesh, let’s slow down the revisionist history a bit, shall we?

    C’mon Phil had all the leverage. Chicago wanted Melo. Butler was meh last season and Mirotic was a complete unknown. Felton would have been backup and JR would have been played “catch and shoot” role which is arguably more valuable than Butler when you have Rose and Melo drawing doubles. Throw in Prigioni and we probably could have gotten a draft pick as well.

  13. The Melo deal, as stated by Sam Smith on the radio at halftime, would have cost the Bulls Mirotoc, Taj Gibson, and Carlos Boozer (and by extension Pau Gasol). All that just to free up the cap space. (Not sure what picks were being tossed about). He said it’s a huge relief the Bulls dodged the bullet (not sure if that was his own opinion he was reporting or the opinion of Bulls management).

  14. That’s true, you’re right, my bad, it was Gibson and the picks that would be the centerpiece of the deal. I still don’t think Mirotic was part of it, honestly. If he was, then that was a really dumb idea by Jackson to not take that offer, as that’s a fine offer. That’s like 90 cents on the dollar (as opposed to the 20 cents on the dollar the Knicks got for Chandler and the $1.25 on the dollar they gave up for Melo).

  15. C’mon Phil had all the leverage. Chicago wanted Melo.

    If Melo says I’m signing with the Bulls, how does Phil have all the leverage? The only thing Phil could have done is save Reinsdorf $17mm on amenestying Boozer, for which we might have been able to get a first round pick and Snell.

    The Melo deal, as stated by Sam Smith on the radio at halftime, would have cost the Bulls Mirotoc, Taj Gibson, and Carlos Boozer (and by extension Pau Gasol).

    It’s true that they had to give up Taj, and that they could not have signed Mirotic if they had acquired Melo. That would have been the cost to the Bulls.

    But that does not mean that is what the Knicks would have gotten in a S&T for Melo.

    They could have amnestied Boozer, traded Taj to another team for a future pick, and simply let Mirotic stay in Europe one more year and sign him to the MLE next year. Then they would have had the money to sign Melo outright.

    The cost to the Bulls does not equal the gain for the Knicks.

  16. It’s true that they had to give up Taj, and that they could not have signed Mirotic if they had acquired Melo. That would have been the cost to the Bulls.

    But that does not mean that is what the Knicks would have gotten in a S&T for Melo.

    They could have amnestied Boozer, traded Taj to another team for a future pick, and simply let Mirotic stay in Europe one more year and sign him to the MLE next year. Then they would have had the money to sign Melo outright.

    The cost to the Bulls does not equal the gain for the Knicks.

    We did work out scenarios where the Bulls could have made a competitive offer to Melo by trading Gibson and amnestying Boozer, but their best avenue to getting Melo was always going to be the sign and trade (since the “competitive” offer would still be pretty far off for a player who seems incapable of doing anything but taking the most money every time). I tend to believe Smith enough to believe that they did have a sign and trade offer on the table involving Gibson. I tend to doubt Mirotic’s rights were attached as well, though, but perhaps they were.

  17. If Melo says I’m signing with the Bulls, how does Phil have all the leverage?

    Because Phil knows Melo’s not taking a 75m deal. He could have said: Melo, here’s a 5 year 115m deal, or I’ll do a S&T for 4 yr/100m, or you could take 75m. Melo ain’t taking 25m less because of Mirotic and remember JR/Prigioni added to deal would have made it more palatable to Melo.

  18. Because Phil knows Melo’s not taking a 75m deal.

    If the Bulls traded Taj and amnestied Boozer they could have offered Melo a four year max deal worth over $100mm.

    They didn’t want to trade Taj, though. So if they didn’t want to trade Taj to open up enough cap space to make Melo a max 4 year offer, what makes you think they wanted to trade Butler, Mirotic, and draft picks so they could do a S&T with the Knicks?

  19. I tend to believe Smith enough to believe that they did have a sign and trade offer on the table involving Gibson.

    I believe Smith, too. But Smith did not say the Bulls had a sign and trade offer on the table.

    What he said was:

    a) “The key to the Bulls hopes for acquiring Anthony and maintaining a strong team was a sign and trade involving Carlos Boozer. But that was a total non starter for the Knicks. They wanted no part of Boozer”

    b) then he talked about the things the Bulls would have had to do to be able to make a max offer to Carmelo without working a sign and trade with the Knicks:

    “The Bulls literally had dozens of scenarios to acquire Anthony”

    “Obviously, there would have been no offer for Pau Gasol”

    “It’s possible the Bulls could have kept Taj Gibson, but there was no guarantee. The Bulls would have had to drop Mike Dunleavy and Tony Snell, which probably would cost them their draft picks and thus no addition of Doug McDermott.”

    (All quotes from here: http://blogs.bulls.com/2014/12/the-carmelo-anthony-conundrum/)

    Sam Smith was only talking about the things the Bulls had to consider doing to make Melo a max offer on their own. He never once for a second intimated that the Bulls would have been willing to give all those assets to the Knicks instead of maximizing their value by making separate deals for them.

  20. I know it’s fun, when we suck, to imagine all the things we could have done right to make it better. But just like in the other thread (where we’re pretending we wouldn’t have jumped on Deron Williams and be saddled with his overpaid ass right now so we can pretend we would have had Chris Paul), we’re overestimating how much better things could be.

  21. we’re overestimating how much better things could be.

    Things are pretty goddamned bad though. It doesn’t take a very vivid imagination to picture a scenario where the Knicks aren’t on pace to win 15 games and have a gimpy Carmelo Anthony signed to a max deal through 2019 with no 2016 pick, no second round picks until 2020 and no young assets who are worth a damn. This is pretty much a freakin’ worst case scenario. I guess we could be the Nets. That would be worse I guess.

  22. We can buy second round picks. It would really, really help if we had a first round pick in 2016 though, because there’s no guarantee next year is going to be awesome.

  23. They didn’t want to trade Taj, though. So if they didn’t want to trade Taj to open up enough cap space to make Melo a max 4 year offer, what makes you think they wanted to trade Butler, Mirotic, and draft picks so they could do a S&T with the Knicks?

    Taj just had his best year and would have been a key part of the defense if they had acquired Melo. Also, Taj played better than Butler that year and was not gonna be a RFA. There’s no way Chicago holds up the deal because of Mirotic who probably wouldn’t help a team in “win now” mode. Why is it so hard for people to believe that Chicago wouldn’t have been happy to: (1) not have to pay Boozer’s salary (2) field a starting lineup of Rose/JR/Melo/Taj/Noah.

  24. I know it’s fun, when we suck, to imagine all the things we could have done right to make it better. But just like in the other thread (where we’re pretending we wouldn’t have jumped on Deron Williams and be saddled with his overpaid ass right now so we can pretend we would have had Chris Paul), we’re overestimating how much better things could be.

    I don’t think the Jazz would have wanted what the Knicks were selling. I think they preferred the Nets’ package because it involved picks plus the player who was just taken with #3 pick in the draft. I think the Hornets were a lot more likely to want what the Knicks were selling than the Jazz. The Hornets wanted ready-to-play talent (they settled for Eric Gordon, after all) while the Jazz wanted future picks, which the Knicks didn’t have a lot of. I think if the Nets had ended up with Melo than the Jazz would have found a different team for D-Will or just kept him. I think they only got involved because they saw what the Nets were offering for Melo, knew that the Nets were unlikely to get Melo so that that offer was going to be out there and said, “Damn, I want me some of that!

  25. It would really, really help if we had a first round pick in 2016 though, because there’s no guarantee next year is going to be awesome.

    Seriously if we could swing a Melo trade in which all we get back is our own pick next year (or even the worst of the two that Toronto has) I would be so excited.

    Toronto is 20-6 but maybe they think they need a “superstar” or “clutch shot maker” to vault them into contender status?

    Melo for Amir Johnson ($7mm, unguaranteed), Landry ($6.25mm*), Chuck Hayes ($5.9mm), their $4.5 million trade exception, all the picks we gave them for Bargnani, a future #1**, and an apology from Masai Ujiri for stealing candy from a baby twice.

    Can’t we do that? Is that too much to ask?

    * HAHAHAHAHAHA!

    ** Make it 2-3 years down the road so Melo has enough time to ruin the team they currently have

  26. I don’t think the Jazz would have wanted what the Knicks were selling. I think they preferred the Nets’ package because it involved picks plus the player who was just taken with #3 pick in the draft.

    I will look back for the quote, but I am 100% certain that when the Deron trade was made Utah said their plan all along was to wait and see who “won” the Melo sweepstakes and offer Deron immediately to the loser for the same package. It would have been on the table for us, and I don’t think we would have turned it down, especially with the hard on MDA always had for Deron.

  27. Yes, Smith is talking about cost to the Bulls, not a package that was going to the Knicks. But what does it matter where those pieces are going if the net result is the same? What we learned from the Melo documentary (I think) is that the Bulls were willing to do what they could to get him, but the Knicks were unwilling to facilitate his departure with a S&T. There was definitely a reasonable match to make with all the assets that HAD to leave Chicago for the Knicks to come away with a brighter future.

  28. O’Connor revealed that Donnie Walsh had inquired about Williams before the Melo trade was completed. However the Utah GM had played it cool, not revealing that his point guard was on the market. When I suggested he may have gotten a better deal had he let more teams know Deron was available, O’Connor explained that “I didn’t want people saying, no, I don’t want to be traded to this team or that team.” To avoid leaks, they waited, content to go after whichever team ‘lost’ the Melo sweepstakes and offer them an All-Star Point Guard Consolation Prize.

    But hey, who knows if the editors of that site do any vetting ;)

  29. So at 27 is Andrew Bynum finished? I guess the Knicks could sign him and officially end his career.

  30. Yes, Smith is talking about cost to the Bulls, not a package that was going to the Knicks. But what does it matter where those pieces are going if the net result is the same? What we learned from the Melo documentary (I think) is that the Bulls were willing to do what they could to get him, but the Knicks were unwilling to facilitate his departure with a S&T. There was definitely a reasonable match to make with all the assets that HAD to leave Chicago for the Knicks to come away with a brighter future.

    I’m just saying don’t you think if the Bulls had the following two choices:

    A) Trade Taj Gibson for future picks to free up the cap space to sign Melo outright

    and

    B) forego the #1 pick and include Gibson in the trade to the Knicks

    they would almost definitely choose A? So I think it’s false to assume that just because the Bulls had to give up Gibson to sign Melo that it means we could have gotten Gibson for Melo.

    I do agree with your final assessment, though. There was definitely something to be done. I’m just doubtful it would have netted us Mirotic, Gibson, or Butler. Snell and maybe some low value draft picks was the most likely outcome. And yes, that probably would have been better than re-signing him.

  31. Yeah, the main point is that the shittiest offer would still have been better than re-signing him.

  32. In a year like this where the Knicks suck giant elephant balls, their second round pick would have been quite valuable. You generally can’t buy a pick in the high second round. But whatevs.

  33. Why is it so hard for people to believe that Chicago wouldn’t have been happy to … field a starting lineup of Rose/JR/Melo/Taj/Noah.

    Because JR, for starters.

  34. That’s the killer part of them not having second rounders for years. The Rockets are going to get a great second round pick for basically no reason.

  35. “I have multiple people say kind of just shut it down,” Anthony said. “Or just take time off. But at the end of the day, it’s hard for me to just do that right now in the midst of what’s happening with the team and this season. So just trying to be smart about that.”

    Does Melo think his playing hurt has been helping the Knicks win or something? Someone explain this to me.

  36. I know PJ needs” lots of time” to show his value $12 million/year, but the more I think about it, the less optimistic I am about him.

    PJ was supposed to bring
    – a successful offensive system
    – winning attitude and transform culture
    – get the most out of his players (remember all the talk about Melo becoming better)
    – get his team to play hard
    – getting everyone to “buy-in”

    The unknown was his front office administrative skills.

    Okay, so let’s give him some more time to evolve the knicks into an elite team, but he’s been here nine months now, and I have trouble seeing anything he accompolished other than firing Woodson.

    The Melo deal was horrendous. After a lot of posturing, he gave Melo everything, topped off with a no-trade clause. Even if you agree that the knicks should have kept Melo, it’s still a stupid deal.
    He gave away Tyson Chandler too cheap. Wasn’t PJ supposed to be able to get big talents to play together?
    The triangle isn’t working. They don’t know how to win/close out games.

    More and more I’m thinking PJ made the same deal as Melo. $$,$$$$.$$

  37. In a year like this where the Knicks suck giant elephant balls, their second round pick would have been quite valuable. You generally can’t buy a pick in the high second round. But whatevs.

    Yeah but Marcus Camby was totally worth it. Didn’t we give them last year’s 2nd round pick AND this year’s for him?

    EDIT: yep, we did. Two top of the 2nd round draft picks for Marcus fucking Camby.

  38. Yeah but Marcus Camby was totally worth it. Didn’t we give them last year’s 2nd round pick AND this year’s for him?

    Ay-yep. And it’s not like they’re even stopping this nonsense, they just dealt another one just to save luxury tax money on Travis Outlaw’s salary!

  39. More and more I’m thinking PJ made the same deal as Melo. $$,$$$$.$$

    Yeap Phil gives Melo max/NTC and receives 60m. I remember the press conference when a reporter asked Phil if there was any precondition to the job concerning Melo. Phil had been answering all the questions and Dolan jumped in and took that one. Phil chose not to echo Dolan’s response that there was no precondition.

  40. I wish I hadn’t researched this, but since I did I want y’all to suffer with me. It’s the status of our future 2nd round picks (and last year’s):

    2014 – traded to Rockets for Marcus Camby
    2015 – traded to Rockets for Marcus Camby
    2016 – traded to Blazers for Ray Felton, yet somehow got routed to the Rockets (of course)
    2017 – traded to Raptors for Bargnani
    2018 – we traded the rights to swap picks with the 76’ers in the Outlaw trade
    2019 – trade to the 76’ers to take Outlaw

    That’s 6 years worth of 2nd round picks for Marcus Camby, Ray Felton, Andrea Bargnani, and waiving Travis Outlaw so we could be more competitive this year. Sheesh.

  41. Yeah, I was just bemoaning the other day that the Knicks don’t have their own second rounder until 2020. It’s ludicrous.

  42. Can we please stop the whining about no 2nd round picks? Here’s a list of impact players (and I use that term quite liberally) that have come out of the 2nd round from the 2010-2014 drafts:

    2010 Lance Stephensono
    2011 Shelvin Mack, Isaiah Thomas, Chandler Parsons
    2012 Draymond Green, Mike Scott
    2013 James Ennis, Isaiah Canaan
    2014 KJ McDaniels ?

    So out of 150 2nd round picks over 5 years, we have 9 NBA rotation players, or a 6% success rate.

    This franchise is not going to live or die by not having 2nd round picks.

  43. Yeah, but you can buy them once all the decent players are off the board. Like we bought the super useful Louis Labeyrie last year. So it’s all good.

    #pleasekillme

  44. You know whats funny a lot of people on this site at the beginning of the season said it would be good if melo was hurt and we tanked to get a high pick. That is exactly what is happening and people are still bitching, i don’t know what y’all want. Can we stop talking about the melo trade, it happened …… I think the majority of people thought we would be a mediocre team that barely made the playoffs which isn’t happening. Are you guys going to be upset if we end up with a top three pick and melo + whatever free agents next year?

  45. Can we please stop the whining about no 2nd round picks?

    No.

    Can you please stop underestimating the value of 2nd round picks?

  46. You know whats funny a lot of people on this site at the beginning of the season said it would be good if melo was hurt and we tanked to get a high pick. That is exactly what is happening and people are still bitching, i don’t know what y’all want.

    Actually that was me. I said the best case scenario for this year is that Melo gets a non-catastrophic injury that allows him to take the year off so we can get a high pick and not put any unnecessary wear on his body. And I’m thrilled that’s what is happening.

    But doesn’t it make sense that I might be pissed off that that’s our best case scenario and still bitch about how we got ourselves here?

    Are you guys going to be upset if we end up with a top three pick and melo + whatever free agents next year?

    Depends who the free agents are and if we keep the pick or trade it.

  47. But doesn’t it make sense that I might be pissed off that that’s our best case scenario and still bitch about how we got ourselves here?

    Especially because, again, it was not the plan of the guy in charge of the Knicks for this to happen. It does not bode well for our confidence in the guy running the team when he makes a series of moves with the intent for the Knicks to be competitive for the playoffs and then they end up as one of the very worst teams in the entire league.

  48. Paul millsap was a second round pick,

    Every time I think about Millsap signing for half of what Melo got my blood boils. He’s had a better career.

  49. Second round picks are usually not that great as actual picks, but they’re super useful as trade intensifiers. Like we offer some team JR Swish and they’re all “LOL Nah”, but then we come back with JR and 2 second round picks and then baby you got a stew going.

  50. @46 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!

    The whole idea of building through the draft (even 1st round) is valid but overstated. Let’s not forget some of our past first round picks: Gallinari (6), Balkman (20), Mardy Collins (29), Mike Sweetney (9), Frederic Weis (15)

  51. But let’s be sure to forget Patrick Ewing, the last time the Knicks had an actual top three pick (that they didn’t trade).

    Any rebuilding route is going to be unlikely to result in a championship. The best odds of the bad odds, though, by far, is building through a top pick in the draft.

  52. With the exception of Memphis (Marc Gasol) and Houston (Harden and Howard), all of the Western playoff teams (the only playoff teams that really matter) drafted almost all of their top players.

    1) GSW – Curry/Thompson, Barnes too if you’re into that sort of thing

    2) Memphis – Conley

    3) Portland – Aldrige/Lilliard/Batum

    4) Houston – mostly free agency, but did use picks as trade bait and smart use of cap space to be able to do it

    5) Clippers – Griffin/Jordan

    6) Dallas – Dirk, the poster child for why you develop young players that don’t get off to as hot a start as you might hope

    7) San Antonio – Duncan/Parker/Ginobli

    8) Pelicans – The Brow

    9) Honorable mention to the Thunder Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka/Jackson/Adams, in other words their entire starting unit

    Building through the draft does have an element of luck to it, but let’s not pretend it doesn’t generally work better than any other method. You mostly build through the draft and supplement with free agency/trades; it’s the rare team that does it the other way around (Miami).

    *EDIT: I did not include Gasol because even though he has only played for Memphis, he was technically drafted by the Lakers and traded for his brother Pau.

  53. You know whats funny a lot of people on this site at the beginning of the season said it would be good if melo was hurt and we tanked to get a high pick. That is exactly what is happening and people are still bitching, i don’t know what y’all want. Can we stop talking about the melo trade, it happened …… I think the majority of people thought we would be a mediocre team that barely made the playoffs which isn’t happening. Are you guys going to be upset if we end up with a top three pick and melo + whatever free agents next year?

    Question: How many years are we told, “It’s not about this year. Wait till next year”.
    Answer: Basically – Every year! – And the few years they don’t say it, the knicks suck even worse.

    So, why in the world would any knicks fan be be critical of management decisions?
    Rah! Rah! Rah! Let’s go knicks! Rah! Rah! Rah!

  54. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200811120MEM.html

    This squad I remember from 2008 – we had Z-bo, David Lee, Wilson, Gallo (just drafted), Nate, Jamal. Started out 6-3, then traded Z-bo and Jamal sadly. That team would have made noise in the playoffs. Many of those guys were homegrown draft picks too (D. Lee, Wilson, Nate via PHX, Gallo). Donnie Walsh had just started I think, and those trades were the beginning of attempts to clear cap space and make a play at Summer 2010., so I understand he did what he had to do. All our talk of draft picks reminded me of this squad and how much drafted talent we had on the roster before blowing it up.

  55. “Marc Gasol– our #1 dream FA acquisition– was a 2nd round pick.”
    “Dirk, the poster child for why you develop young players that don’t get off to as hot a start as you might hope”
    Both of whom are perfect examples of why the Chandler trade can’t be judged until 3 or more years from now, since the Pau for Marc trade was viewed as the heist of the century at the time it was made.

  56. Trades can only be judged at what they were like at the time of the trade, not years later. The whole argument of the Gasol trade is that Memphis felt that people misjudged it then, as they insisted that they did know something about Marc Gasol that other people didn’t (due to their close relationship with his family). It wasn’t that they just took a flier on the guy, they specifically built the trade around getting his rights. That’s not the case with the Chandler trade, as it wasn’t a deal for any player’s rights, so it can’t be that the Knicks knew Player X was coming back in the trade, it was just two second round picks. Thus, you can’t judge the trade on who the Knicks got with the second round picks, you can only judge it on the value of the picks in general at the time of the trade.

    For instance, you can’t bag on the Hornets for trading Vlade Divac for Kobe Bryant. They traded Divac for the #14 pick. That was fair value. It just happened that the #14 pick that year happened to turn out to be a Hall of Famer. That’s not a reasonable result for such a pick.

  57. The Gasol trade was dumb and is still dumb. Marc Gasol’s rise was meteoric and shocking. If I give you my house for a lottery ticket, and I win the lottery, it doesn’t mean I made a good deal.

    @62 that’s the irony of ironies. The one time we took a long term approach was the only time we actually had a few good players on our team. Using hindsight, we rushed the Randolph and Crawford trades. That might have been a core worth keeping around for a bit and adding to. Very strong case to be made that Donnie Walsh flunked as bad as everyone else did.

  58. While I agree in general that even if they were fans of Gasol that they should have gotten something more in that deal, I think Gasol was a lot more than a lottery pick. A lottery pick is more akin to a draft pick.

    Speaking of lottery picks reminds me of Norm MacDonald’s bit about giving lottery picks as presents:

    A Lottery Ticket Is A Terrible Gift

    Well, I’m looking for gifts. You ever get a, uh- you ever get a bad gift? Y’know? Last Christmas, man, I got the worst gift a guy ever give me. He gave me a lottery ticket. You ever get that for a gift? Man, what a stinkin’ gift that is, huh? You know, what’s a guy even thinking there, right? (He goes) “Here you go. Nothing! Merry Christmas! It’s nothing! From me to you- not anything!” You know, unless it wins, then it’s something. But let’s face it- if you give a guy a lottery ticket, you know, you don’t want it to win. What kind of fucking nightmare would that be, y’know? Imagine that, you get a call a week after Christmas there? (You) go, “Hey, Fred. What’s happening there? Yeah, I remember that ticket I give you. Fourteen million bucks, eh? (Anguished laughter) Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha aha ha ha (voice cracking) Good for you, Fred, yeah. No, I’m happy over here, no, I. Listen- what’d you get me again there, Fred, I- I can’t remember what you got me, I- I know I got you the fourteen million, but I can’t. I can’t remember for the life of- Oh, yeah- the cup! Yeah, I remember now. Yes, thanks for asking, I’m enjoying the cup there. I, uh- had some tea out of it the other day there, and, uh- some coffee, I’m hoping to have some soup there and, uh. Guess (there’s) no chance of that cup skyrocketing in value at all, eh? No, I guess that’s the sensible you. Well, I gotta go now, Fred. I gotta go apply a shard of glass to my throat. Okay, goodbye.”

  59. Memphis got Gasol and the cap space that they used to acquire Zach Randolph. The trade was a great trade for both teams: it allowed the Lakers to “win now”, and directly led to the Grizzlies being an elite team in the west this year (while the Lakers blow).

  60. Brian Cronin December 19, 2014 at 4:22 pm
    Trades can only be judged at what they were like at the time of the trade, not years later

    What? I don’t follow what you mean at all. This can be true when you trade vets straight up for vets but when young talent is involved you can’t say that.

    February 23, 2011: Deron Williams traded by the Utah Jazz to the New Jersey Nets for Derrick Favors, Devin Harris, cash, a 2011 1st round draft pick (Enes Kanter was later selected) and a 2013 1st round draft pick (Gorgui Dieng was later selected).

    At the time of this trade, this was considered a steal for the BK Nets. Now if you could go back im sure the Nets would take it back and there are many more like this.

  61. Memphis got Gasol and the cap space that they used to acquire Zach Randolph.

    They got Randolph in a straight up trade for Quentin Richardson.

  62. Brian Cronin December 19, 2014 at 4:22 pm
    Trades can only be judged at what they were like at the time of the trade, not years later

    er, I think he means you have to look at the value of what was given up in the trade at the time it was made. Like in the Kobe for Vlade example. If you trade a 2nd round pick, and that pick turns out to be an all star, you can’t kill the team for trading an all star when all they did was trade a 2nd round pick.

  63. Tyson is what, 3 or 4 years older than Rondo? The Tyson trade was fine. If we fucked up the picks, and fucked up the Larkin deal, and fucked up the Carmelo contract-those are all different issues. We got a high 2nd round pick (which is actually great value if you use it wisely) for a guy who wasn’t coming back to us. Yeah, if we’d held on to him longer, maybe we could have gotten more. But maybe he shows up unmotivated and plays terribly. Or maybe he gets hurt again. Or goes to watch a Rangers game and gets mumps.

  64. Hubert, yea i guess that makes sense. My point is not to kill anyone tho. Just let it play out for a little especially if there are picks/young prospects. To me picks have 0 value, players do. For example everyone here would trade the 57th pick for the 1st or 2nd pick 100 out of 100 times. The team who traded you the top 2 pick would be killed. But lets put players in that position 57th pick (Manu Ginobili) 1st pick (Greg Oden) 2nd pick (Darko).

    Maybe thats a dumb example, but i just dont like the snap judgement on trades that include prospects.

  65. for a guy (Tyson) who wasn’t coming back to us.

    He wasn’t coming back because the team was being run like shit, and he had problems with Melo’s selfish style.”
    That’s the teams fault. And if the knicks can’t get fair value because a good player wants out of this mess, that’s not an alibi for the team. That’s an indictment.

  66. Well the Knicks suck. We’ve been a horribly run organization for about 15 years. It’s gonna take some time to undo that damage. Setting aside whatever issues Tyson had with Melo, I can see an older veteran like Tyson not wanting to stick with the Knicks because the team sucked. Nobody was going to be able to make the Knicks good this season. If we’d kept Tyson and flipped Melo to the Bulls for, I dunno, Mirotic and Taj (which as far as I can tell is about the best plausible deal for Melo), would we be a contender this year?

  67. @74 its funny you mention “problems with Melo’s selfish style.” On Realgm alotta of the guys were saying that they thought it was actually Tyson and Amare that didnt get along. Not Tyson and Melo as Tyson and Amare were the ones always sniping in the media. Anywhoo, it doesnt matter the reason. If he was leaving he was leaving.

  68. They got Randolph in a straight up trade for Quentin Richardson.

    I think it’s pretty much accepted that by moving Gasol’s contract the Grizzlies were able to take on Randolph. It’s a long time ago, and I can’t find a reliable link stating it explicitly, but Gasol was owed about $119,000,000 when they traded him. Randolph was owed $33,000,000 and Richardson was an expiring $8.7 mil. So you can kind of see the financial landscape that dealing Gasol provided.

  69. Apparently two second round picks will buy you a terrible basketball player named Corey Brewer.

    not just Brewer but Sved

  70. “ruru’s not walking through that door, Owen”

    I wish he would. It would be a wonderful palliative to get his take on the situation.

  71. Re: Corey Brewer — I’ve watched parts of about 4 Westchester Knicks games. Anyone else think Brewer is a good comp for Antetekuompo?

  72. Anyone else think the Raptors new logo looks like they copied the Nets? Why you’d want to copy anything from that awful franchise (even worse than the Knicks, hard as that is to believe) is beyond me.

  73. . If we’d kept Tyson and flipped Melo to the Bulls for, I dunno, Mirotic and Taj (which as far as I can tell is about the best plausible deal for Melo), would we be a contender this year?

    That would have been a better situation going forward. Tyson is a less selfish player and more of a winner than Melo, plus the extra cap space. But, it’s the knicks.
    Some people just don’t get it and never will. The knicks are going nowhere as long as Melo is their team leader

  74. I think Phil had already decided that the Knicks were going to be a #7 or #8 seed this year at best even with Chandler. Since Chandler did not fit into his long term vision for the triangle and would probably leave at year end anyway, he decided to trade him.

    I thought all along that Chandler and Kidd were the reason we had the 54 win season (not Melo), but I’m not sure what he was worth given the injuries and sub par year. We probably didn’t get back enough, but we got rid of Felton (whose multi year contract was practically untradeable after the gun fiasco). We basically upgraded PG significantly, hope to use Calderon to attract Marc Gasol, and added 3 young players hoping one or more turns into more than just a rotation player.

    I think we have to wait another couple of years to figure out how well we did even though it was clearly not a great trade.

  75. I’m not sure any Melo trade talk is even within the realm of possibility. He has a 15m trade kicker. Whose going to pay that “on top” of his salary and on top of the possibility he needs knee surgery at the end of the year (or sooner if he decides to shut it down). No, I said resigning him to that deal was horrible mistake and it looks even worse now with his knees and that kicker (which I did not even know about).

  76. I wish he would. It would be a wonderful palliative to get his take on the situation.

    Do you really want to know ruru’s view?

    That’s easy.

    “You guys are all misunderstanding Melo’s value” (despite massive piles of both statistical and real court evidence to the contrary).

    There’s a difference between talent/skill and playing in a way that generates actual value for your team. With all due respect to ruru’s extensive knowledge of the game, he’s like virtually every ex-player, popular media guy, most coaches, and a lot of GMs. They don’t understand the difference.

  77. I thought all along that Chandler and Kidd were the reason we had the 54 win season (not Melo)

    Whut? So Melo gets 0 credit? Alright then. I think it’s called having a good team including 6th man of the year JR Smith. Smh. I just don’t get it. I just don’t.

  78. @ Stratomatic – I agree with you, its not going to be easy to move on from Melo if that’s what the Knicks eventually decide to do. I think the Lakers listen but they are one of only a handful of teams who would. Whenever the Knicks decide to shop him it is going to be……fun.

  79. I root for the Mets. The Mets, for many years, were run just as poorly as the Knicks, and they would do a lot of the same things the Knicks always do, namely make “win now” moves when the team was not ready to “win now.” Then a true Met miracle happened: Fred Wilpon got ripped off beyond belief by Bernie Madoff. Hamstrung by the Madoff mess and unable to make “win now” moves, the Mets were forced into doing the thing they always needed to do: flip valuable veterans for prospects, refrain from signing onerous long-term free agent deals and build a deep farm system with talent at all levels. They hired competent men, Sandy Alderson and Paul DePodesta, to do this.

    It has taken a while, and the Mets have lost a lot of games in the meantime. And there are still lots of fans that complain every time the Mets don’t sign a Robinson Cano or a Jon Lester. But if you take a look at the Mets now, they have a top 10 farm system, possibly top 5. Mets’ farm teams had the best aggregate winning percentage in all of baseball. In addition to the farm league talent, the Mets major league roster is full of guys on rookie contracts, including the Rookie Of The Year Jake deGrom and returning ace Matt Harvey.

    Will they make the playoffs this year? I don’t know. But what they have now is something immensely valuable to me as a fan: sustainability. They are in really good shape going forward, even if their payroll doesn’t ever go back up into the stratosphere. The Mets were forced to do what the Knicks chose not to do: a full tear-down and rebuild. It’s a good time to be a Mets fan. The Knicks, not so much.

  80. Do you really want to know ruru’s view?
    That’s easy.
    “You guys are all misunderstanding Melo’s value” (despite massive piles of both statistical and real court evidence to the contrary).

    Then he would perform some acrobatic act of statistical cherry-picking, like this: “Last season when his elbow was healthy over a 27-game stretch Melo was 4th in the NBA in PPP on pick-and-pop attempts and ranked 11th out of 88 small forwards in on-ball defense according to Synergy” or some such.

  81. Whut? So Melo gets 0 credit? Alright then. I think it’s called having a good team including 6th man of the year JR Smith. Smh. I just don’t get it. I just don’t.

    Every player that contributed gets credit, but the in grand scheme of things, he was not particularly significant.

  82. @87 — most coaches and a lot of GMs don’t understand the difference between talent and value as well as a bunch of bloggers on a fan website? You really believe that?

  83. Sabermetrics took an unbelievably long time to catch on in baseball. I know for a fact that Omar Minaya did not understand a simple concept like BABIP as late as the mid-2000s, while an awful lot of “bloggers on the internet” did.

  84. Will they (Mets) make the playoffs this year? I don’t know. But what they have now is something immensely valuable to me as a fan: sustainability. They are in really good shape going forward, even if their payroll doesn’t ever go back up into the stratosphere. The Mets were forced to do what the Knicks chose not to do: a full tear-down and rebuild. It’s a good time to be a Mets fan. The Knicks, not so much.

    And it’s a lot easier and more fun to watch a bunch of hungry, young, scrappy guys playing their asses off than a bunch of super-millionaires acting like super-millionaires.

    Every player that contributed gets credit, but the in grand scheme of things, he was not particularly significant.

    Even this season, last game in particular, the knicks often look better when Melo’s not on the floor. Sure, he’s one of the best scorers in the league, and great to have when there’s five seconds on the clock, but overall, he grinds the offense to a halt.
    Today, against Phoenix, when Melo wasn’t on the floor, both ball and players were always moving. When Ball Stopper comes in, he demands the ball, holds it for a few seconds, and everybody just stands still. When Ball Stopper looks up to pass, of course no one is in good position. They’re just standing and staring at Ball Stopper. Does that sound familiar?

    @87 — most coaches and a lot of GMs don’t understand the difference between talent and value as well as a bunch of bloggers on a fan website? You really believe that?

    Some bloggers definitely understand talent more than some GM’s and coaches. Some bloggers don’t know more than a roll of toilet paper.
    I once had a great coach. His innate talent and on-court sense was uncanny. I revered him. That’s a different skill than knowing who the best players were.

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