Cleveland Cavaliers 81 – New York Knicks 102 – Game Recap

Has there ever been anything more Thibodeautical (boom! there you go, out of thin air) than a team scoring a meager 3 points in the first 6:49 minutes of a game (more than 1/8 of a full match) but then keeping its opponent to 33 points for the first half and 81 at the final buzzer en route to a 21-point win?

The game was totally fugly in the first quarter, but somehow someway the Bockers came out up by 2 (19-17) at the end of the first 12 minutes. They did it by playing good defense and scrapping here and there even during that initial brutal stretch when nobody, and when I say nobody I say “Julius Randle didn’t even put up a shot until 3:50 remaining in the second quarter”, had the slightest idea about how an NBA offense should look like. Seriously, those first six minutes looked like I always figured the early Trump administration days went for the White House titular staffers: guys running around tumbling and fumbling pretty much everything while asking themselves exactly what sin were they atoning for to endure the growls of an elder lunatic (hey Thibs this is just a joke, you’re a lunatic and a psycho but you seem definitely well-intentioned and capable). From the second quarter on, the team looked like it was gelling under the tutelage of the mercurial Quivers backcourt, the sheer core strength of a certain RJ Barrett and a quiet overseeing effort from Julius Randle, ending the half up 47-33.

The second half was just the Knicks treading water, always keeping the Cavs at a comfortable distance like an older brother putting his hand on the little one’s forehead to playfully exert his gerontocratic dominion, fueled by spectacular play by Immanuel Quickley, steady leadership by Randle and a couple more Barrett blows. It was as easy as could be, and for a night I’m happy to report that there’s pretty much nothing to report.

The good:

– That is, if a supposedly unheralded rookie scoring 25 points efficiently and kinda sustainably in a good win is nothing to report. Immanuel Quickley (25 pts, 5 rebs, 3 ast, +19 +/-) is not ready to be dependable every single night, but 20 games in it’s getting harder and harder not to bet a lot of dough on him being a 10+ year NBA veteran down the line, and maybe something more than that if things break the right way. Tonight he had it all: a cold stretch in the first half (where he still scored on a velvet soft bank floater and a three pointer), a nice 20 points second half with a torrid 14 points in the fourth quarter, a boatload of swag, a few nice dishes, and the general attitude of a guy who’s toying with opponents and maybe his future. It self-belief is half the way, IQ’s direction is the right one without a doubt. Also: an and-one dunk over Jarrett Allen and (gasp!) a mid-range jumper instead of floater. 16 games onto his NBA career, he’s posting a .124 WS/48 while scoring 11.6 ppg in under 19mpg, and being mediocre-to-adequate on defense, which is pretty good for a rookie, again. I will eat crow until I die about the Quickley pick, and I’m none the sadder about it.

– Is it Paul Pierce? Is it Andre Iguodala? Is it a bird? Is it a plane? Is it a carriage waiting to become a pumpkin again? Whatever he is, there’s no denying that RJ Barret (24 pts, 4 rebs, 2 ast, +27 +/-) has visibly perked up in the last 10 or so games. His shot selection has gotten better, he looks like he’s playing in the flow, and you don’t even notice anymore his lack of burst because he’s usually pummeling guys on his way to the rim. Mind you, he’s still missing a few shots at the cup because of weird angles or because he still lacks that capricious subtlety he needs to add to get to a higher level, but at the very least he’s being consistent. I really like the fact that he’s not hoisting shots just to see what happens anymore. While his early season horrid shooting slump still affects his season TS% and even tonight he didn’t shoot that well (8 for 19) his peripheral numbers are usually good enough to have him getting close to the .100 WS/48 promised land. Now, imagine if only he could play with a point guard who can shoot.

The bad:

– Apropos of that, it’s time to have a serious conversation about Elfrid Payton (2 pts, 1 reb, 3 ast, +2 +/-). I get it. He’s a useful NBA player here and there. But he has to be the mother succubus of all the eye-gouging with a screwdriver temptations, dear god. His overall game is so ugly it could easily get a part on a David Lynch side project. I won’t argue about the fact that his defense probably hindered a bit the starting Cavs backcourt, but if that was enough to start for an NBA team Frank would have secured a starting spot as soon as he was back from his injury. I don’t think you can straight up cut you starting PG (especially if there are no signs at all that he’s not liked by the team) but god, a demotion should really be in Elf’s future. And that’s even if you, like me (and Clyde!) think that IQ shouldn’t start yet. NBA history is full of starters with little to no contribution to their team’s offense and empty box scores, but usually winning teams who find themselves in such a predicament employ that strategy because the chemistry is palpable. Here, I don’t feel any chemistry. Elf’s just a placeholder who got jinxed by the malignant god of basketball shooting, leaving him the king of the jumpshot point guard bridesmaids. Always the shooter, never the hitter.

Fun-sized bits:

– As you know, usually I watch the game in the early morning. This means I can see how much the game will last and that gives me intel enough to infere if it’s gonna be a blowout, a triple overtime game or that weird occasion where players incur in 32 flagrant fouls. NBA League Pass threw me a curveball this time: as soon as I went to watch the game, a 3:04 hours video duration popped up. I was ready for a double overtime game, and while that soothed the pain during the early scoreless minutes it gave me a bit of anxiety while up by 20 in the fourth. I was envisioning a catastrophic letdown. Well what do I know, the NBA League Pass people this time decided to include the Thibs interview and the full Pidto-Wally segment after the game. I think I blew my once in a lifetime chance to see something good happen when all signs don’t point to it on this stupid game.

– Can I say Julius Randle, leader? It’s easy to say how a bad apple can ruin the whole basket, especially if that bad apple is the fucking coach.

– What the heck is up with Mitch? “One day they’ll let me play 100”, he wrote in a tweet he deleted after a while. Who are they? Is this affecting his play? I didn’t like his game last night, and I wouldn’t be pleased at all if Mitch developed some drama. Still early but something to keep an eye on.

– Watching Austin Rivers play is like playing microwave lasagna roussian roulette: only after taking a bite you’ll know if it’s too hot, too cold, just right or plain horrible tasting. This time Rivers was instrumental in keeping us afloat in the first quarter, and after that he became almost forgettable (which is still, I guess, a part of the good Austin Rivers experience).

– Obi Toppin : Melvin Capital = IQ : Gamestop

– No but seriously, while I like Obi’s effort, how in the hell was he projected to be a top 5 pick? The guy has some Shelden Williams/Thomas Robinson vibes as of now.

And for today it’s all! Now watch me collapse under the weight of the Italian government attempt to give a shot in the veins to the economy via the building restoration market, which will give me triple the workload of a normal year (if Max is reading this, we’re talking about Superbonus 110%; for all of you non-italians, the government is actually paying back people who choose to put thermal coatings on their buildings, and I’m supposed to manage this process for 20+ buildings under my care).

 

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Farfa

Just an Italian basketball fan with an insane passion for all things Knicks (and yes, linguine Alfredo is not a real Italian dish).

199 thoughts to “Cleveland Cavaliers 81 – New York Knicks 102 – Game Recap”

  1. Welcome back Farfa!

    Good recap as usual and veeerrrrry good David Lynch reference! :-)

    RJ in the last 9 games: 3PFG 14-30 FT 35-42, with solid defense, some turnovers, decent to good rebounding and assist stats. He’s not there yet but he’s steadily moving in the right direction.

    Randle he’s the leader of the team, yesteday he was strangely quiet in the fist half but still present.

    I’m on the fence with Robinson, I’m trying to remain as objective as I could but some of the things I watch… let’s say I don’t like them… I never thought I’d see a better future for Allen than for him.

    IQ is the spark, the offense is way smoother with him on the floor, it’s a nice thing to have a pseudo pg that can shoot… and the swagger is impressive.

    I’m at a loss of words on The Plague. Every time I think he has reached the bottom and every time he surprised me with new horrors…

    P.S. My sister-in-law is in the building admin business, good luck with the Superbonus!… ;-)

  2. Watching Austin Rivers play is like playing microwave lasagna roussian roulette: only after taking a bite you’ll know if it’s too hot, too cold, just right or plain horrible tasting

    Thanks, Farfa. The above quote goes right into the lesson plans on figurative language for my students. I may have to start paying royalties if you agent up. Sorry about the extra work burden.
    Early am (EST) question for you and Max: One of my guilty pleasures is binge-watching Gomorrah ( an ultra-lite Sopranos), and I wonder what you fellows think of it assuming you watch it?

  3. But he has to be the mother succubus of all the eye-gouging with a screwdriver temptations, dear god.

    Haha, great!

    When RJ is having a night where he gets his offense in very diverse ways, getting easy looks, without forcing shots, his future seems way brighter. However, i feel some of the looks were *too* easy, that Cleveland did a bad job defending him. I recall one instance with Garland defending him who is way undersized, and I was not paying enough attention (hey, the games are late were I live) to recall if it was good team play on our side or if Cleveland botched the defense (perhaps he confused RJ Barrett with Payton, as it usually happens here)

  4. Bo Nateman:
    Early am (EST) question for you and Max: One of my guilty pleasures is binge-watching Gomorrah ( an ultra-lite Sopranos), and I wonder what you fellows think of it assuming you watch it?

    I watched it, some things I like a lot (particularly in the first season) other not so much, but the goods outweigh the bads and overall I’m positive, I’m waiting for the fifth (and I hope last) season.
    Have you watched the spinoff movie intended to link the fourth season with the fifth?

    P.S. I’m not sure it’s so light compared to the Sopranos (one of my favorite series ever), there are children killed, an husband that cold bloodedly kills his own wife, a man forced to drink another one’s piss… Sopranos has some comedy moments, I never laugh with Gomorra :-)

  5. As dark and gloomy TV series go I suggest the argentinian “Epitafios” (chilling) and the french “Braquo” (a take no prisoners “The Shield” on steroids).

  6. Max:
    As dark and gloomy TV series go I suggest the argentinian “Epitafios” (chilling) and the french “Braquo” (a take no prisoners “The Shield” on steroids).

    Thank you, I’ll check both out.

  7. Max:
    As dark and gloomy TV series go I suggest the argentinian “Epitafios” (chilling) and the french “Braquo” (a take no prisoners “The Shield” on steroids).

    I loved Epitafios, particularly the first season. The villain was terrific. But I must say that Renzo is a fucking moron and his antics infuriated me by the show’s end.

  8. Ntilakilla: I loved Epitafios, particularly the first season. The villain was terrific. But I must say that Renzo is a fucking moron and his antics infuriated me by the show’s end.

    I watched only the first season, maybe that’s why I like it so much :-)

  9. Thanks for the recommendations of Epitafios. Braquo and Gomorrah. Ever since my “early retirement” in June, I’ve been binging a lot and it’s tough to find good shows now.

    I’ll add a recommendation, the German show “Dark”. It’s moved into my top-10 easily but it’s not for everyone but I think Knickerbloggers will love it. But after I watched the series, I went and read some reviews. One stood out to me as important to convey to anyone who would consider watching it:

    This show is highly complex. It will challenge your intelligence & critical thinking capabilities. The screenplay is extremely slow & might test your patience if you don’t put your complete concentration & interest in it.
    Hence it is best to watch this show when you can dedicate your time. intelligence and concentration. Defying these 3 things might lead you to dislike the show which would be completely unfair considering the sheer brilliance of the series.

    And if you are ready to disregard it based on that quote, read the reviews on Rotten Tomatoes and count the number of reviews that call it “the greatest series of all time”.

    This is not the show to watch with someone that wants to have discussions with you. Treat it like a movie, and put your full attention into it or, a few episodes in you’ll be replaying prior episodes to try and figure out what’s going on. One hint, keep careful track of names and relationships.

  10. Kudos to Alan. Particularly impressive was the way you made your points with an economy of words. In a better world, you would be taking Wally’s place.

  11. 1. The longer RJ plays like this the greater the chances his rough start was the aberration. People forget that he was playing better down the stretch last season too. So this may be a continuation of that improvement. He’s only 20. He’s going to get a lot better.

    2. Some of the problem with Mitch may be spacing and some may be inadequate PG play, but he’s so limited he’s going to continue doing this vanishing act when teams take him out of the game. I’m sure the coaching staff knows what they are doing, but it would be nice to see him unleashed a little to see if he can do anything else. Quite frankly, I think his market value is probably falling. He was previously seen as having huge two way upside. Now he’s seen as an even less polished but more athletic version of Nerlens. I think a good case can actually be made Nerlens is the better defender.

    3. Quickley’s game is all over the map. He’s either on fire or can’t hit a shot. You never know what you are going to get. That’s more what you expect from a scorer off the bench than a starter, but he’s too young and inexperienced to come to any conclusions yet. If he gets more consistent, he has to be moved to the starting lineup soon. He might solve a lot of problems.

    4. The defense is still good, lucky, or a little of both.

  12. Max: I watched only the first season, maybe that’s why I like it so much :-)

    Its definitely worth a watch, no doubt. It’s also one of my favorite police thrillers. I was just struck by the protagonist’s arrogance as he bumbled his way throughout the show. I mean, if he were even semi-competent there wouldn’t have even been an antagonist to begin with.

  13. 20 games into the season and Dallas has a worse record than the Knicks. And Doncic has not been hurt!

  14. marechal:
    20 games into the season and Dallas has a worse record than the Knicks. And Doncic has not been hurt!

    Who, before the season started, would’ve thought that our best chances for the top overall pick in the draft would rest with the demise of the Mavs?

  15. Who, before the season started, would’ve thought that our best chances for the top overall pick in the draft would rest with the demise of the Mavs?

    They’ve been missing important pieces due to injury and Covid, but they can’t hit a 3 from anywhere. Luka and KP are throwing up bricks. Kleeber is out, and losing Seth Curry is turning out to have been a big mistake. Their offense is ugly compared to last year. I know the goal was to improve their defense this year, but that hasn’t worked either. IMO, some of the lineups used by Carlisle have been idiotic.

    They have too much talent to think they can be this bad, but they better get healthy and sharp soon for their sake or we are going to get a very good trade asset from them. There are no easy games out west.

  16. The Strickland guys pointed out that Immanuel Quickley is a part of the Porzingis trade. Basically we traded Porzingis in order to capitalize on $74M in cap space, and what that cap space flip turned into (in terms of assets) is Marcus Morris and Julius Randle. We flipped Marcus Morris into the 27th pick, which we paired up with the 38th pick to land the 23rd pick, which we turned into the 25th and 33rd picks. The 25th pick became Immanuel Quickley.

    So, do you think the Mavs could trade Kristaps Porzingis for a borderline all star, a promising young player, and 2 1st round picks? I for certain would not trade Julius Randle, Immanuel Quickley, and two 1st round picks for Porzingis. That sounds like a package for Bradley Beal, not KP.

  17. The Glass Half Rebuilt:
    The Strickland guys pointed out that Immanuel Quickley is a part of the Porzingis trade. Basically we traded Porzingis in order to capitalize on $74M in cap space, and what that cap space flip turned into (in terms of assets) is Marcus Morris and Julius Randle. We flipped Marcus Morris into the 27th pick, which we paired up with the 38th pick to land the 23rd pick, which we turned into the 25th and 33rd picks. The 25th pick became Immanuel Quickley.

    So, do you think the Mavs could trade Kristaps Porzingis for a borderline all star, a promising young player, and 2 1st round picks? I for certain would not trade Julius Randle, Immanuel Quickley, and two 1st round picks for Porzingis. That sounds like a package for Bradley Beal, not KP.

    that sounds like a lot to give up for Beal too

  18. The problem in Dallas is everybody bought into Luka Doncic being a top 5 player in the NBA without acknowledging that he cannot shoot or play defense. Being a brilliant passer/rebounder and semi-efficient volume scorer is not a player that can carry you into the playoffs by himself, and then they doubled down on volume scorer types with no easy-bucket types anywhere. They thought putting Tim Hardaway’s namesake, Kristaps Porzingis, Josh Richardson, and Dorian Finney Smith around Luka would be enough and that simply isn’t the case. If they get into the play-in games they should be frisky but I hope everybody returned that Luka for MVP gear they bought.

  19. mase: that sounds like a lot to give up for Beal too

    Agreed, I’d much rather hold onto the Dallas pick and target Josh Christopher, Moses Moody, or James Bouknight while keeping Randle and Quicks.

  20. (Reposting from earlier thread)

    Who among the first 24 draft picks would you trade Quickley for straight up?

  21. Bo Nateman: Kudos to Alan. Particularly impressive was the way you made your points with an economy of words. In a better world, you would be taking Wally’s place.

    Thanks, Bo! When I told Vorkunov that I might rather have IQ than Hali, he was dubious, so it was nice to have the podcast drop right before this game.

    What do you much smarter fans think? Would you bet on Hali or Quickley having a better career? Higher ceiling? Was I just being a homer or does IQ have a better chance of being an actual PG rather than a great secondary playmaker?

  22. Luka was scoring 31 points per 36 on 59 TS% last year but somehow he’s not an elite scorer or a top five player. Interesting. People do realize his three point percentage is low because he takes high degree of difficulty threes, not because he “can’t shoot”, right? If he learns how to shoot even 35-36% from three while keeping his shot profile and ups his secondary stats even a little he’s going to put up one of the best seasons of all time, up there with 2008-9 lebron and 2015-16 steph.

    He’s been a top 5 player this year as well as last, poor defense or no. It’s kind of crazy to suggest otherwise at this point, just like it was with Harden once upon a time.

  23. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
    Luka was scoring 31 points per 36 on 59 TS% last year but somehow he’s not an elite scorer or a top five player. Interesting. People do realize his three point percentage is low because he takes high degree of difficulty threes, not because he “can’t shoot”, right? If he learns how to shoot even 35-36% from three while keeping his shot profile and ups his secondary stats even a little he’s going to put up one of the best seasons of all time, up there with 2008-9 lebron and 2015-16 steph.

    He’s been a top 5 player this year as well as last, poor defense or no. It’s kind of crazy to suggest otherwise.

    You’re taking Luka Doncic over Harden, Durant, Davis, Curry, Lillard, LeBron, Kawhi, Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and Tatum? Not over the next five years, but this season? He is easily the most valuable asset in the NBA but a top 5 player? I don’t think so.

  24. I think I’d rather have Hali than IQ at this juncture, though I can see arguments for both. Hali has “elite glue guy” written all over him, and can be slotted into almost any lineup since he’s somewhat switchable and has lots of secondary skills to work with. IQ definitely looks like he has more scoring potential though, and has more of a chance at being a high usage player than Hali does. I think IQ’s floor is microwave bench scorer, and his ceiling seems like a Lou Will who can play mediocre defense, which is a nice player. Hali’s floor is Frank Ntilikina if he were an NBA player and his ceiling is, idk, a guy who can get you 15/6/8 at 65 TS with almost no turnovers and play good defense (I don’t know what kind of comp that would be then—Fat Lever or Nate McMillan who can shoot??)

    I reserve the right to change this opinion when IQ drops 30 on the Clippers

  25. That’s a tough one re Hali and IQ. I would still take Halliburton I think because I believe in his passing ability a little bit more. IQ is really focused on getting his shot. Which is fine because he at least focuses on the sweet spot of efficient scoring: three pointers and foul shots. And his assist rate is only 10% lower than Tyrese. My sense of him as a guy who might need to be the focus of the offense more than Hali might just be wrong too.

    Who is the better defender?

    I haven’t tracked all the rookies but my sense is that a bunch of them have given a good account of themselves. Not sure who has played better than IQ though.

  26. Jazz beat writer midway through last night’s game:

    Porzingis picks up his 5th foul with 10:03 left in the 3rd. That might hurt the Jazz, actually.

    Just inject all of that right into my veins…

  27. Yeah, the Mavs body language last night was a balm for my soul. Luka’s comments after were pretty spicy.

  28. I suppose I’d reluctantly take Hali over IQ…it’s pretty close right now. Hali looks like he’s playing chess while the rest of the guys are playing checkers. Fine with having IQ though. Has the makings of an elite scorer, and can pass and defend well enough. Hali is probably smarter, but IQ’s no dummy out there.

  29. IF I did the math right, RJ TS% the last ten games is .576, 3P .40, 2P .496, FT .81

    Small sample size, but clearly the dude is hot.

  30. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2928774-have-the-new-york-knicks-found-their-pg-of-the-future-in-immanuel-quickley

    Good stuff from Jonathan Wasserman on Quickley, adds some data to our ongoing bad process vs information asymmetry debate.

    Some highlights:

    As a scorer, he’s seeing more opportunities to shoot off the dribble, a key strength of his. Last season, he graded in the 99th percentile on dribble jumpers but was limited to attempting just 32 all season (half-court), compared to 121 catch-and-shoot attempts. In 18.1 minutes per game this year, he’s making 1.9 pull-ups per game (5.9 attempts) versus 0.5 made jumpers off the catch (1.4 attempts).

    Entering Friday night, his assist rate with the Knicks (22.8 percent) was double what it was last season at Kentucky (11.4 percent). Generating 1.0 points per possession running pick-and-rolls (73rd percentile), he’s been the Knicks’ most effective ball-screen player early (RJ Barrett: 32nd percentile; Elfrid Payton: 42nd percentile), thanks to his signature floater as well as an ability to keep defenders backpedaling and having the recognition to make reads as a lob passer.

  31. Owen: It’s been clear for years that their is tracking data out there which should make box score stats irrelevant, which only teams have access to. Interested to see how they process it.

    Maybe irrelevant is too strong of a word, but there are huge voids in the box score, especially on D.

  32. I would take Hali because I think he brings more to the table, but the fact that it’s a legitimate question bodes extremely well for IQ. The data from the Wasserman piece indicates the kind of off-the-dribble threes he was hitting last night might be a legitimate part of his arsenal (even if he won’t go 5/8 every game), which would change the calculus about his ceiling.

    Finding a player like him late in the draft is the kind of thing that doesn’t really happen to us so I’ve been waiting for the bubble to burst, but his shot profile is looking a little more sustainable than it was early on (largely due to trading some floaters for threes) and I’ll be damned if he doesn’t just seem to have the “it” factor.

    The other side of the “it’s still early coin” is that it’s reasonable to expect him to improve on some things, and there’s some low-ish hanging fruit there. I’m sure the coaching staff wants him to take the ball to the rim more aggressively and will see what they can do to improve his finishing.

  33. Well, there is nothing in the box score that isn’t in the tracking data.

    Saw that piece on IQ. The jump in his assist rate from college to pros really stands out.

  34. From the Wasserman piece:

    His shooting was well documented and the likely selling point for the Knicks, but their front office saw more. And despite being passed on 24 times and with most scouts unable to detect or acknowledge any upside, he still had fans around the NBA.

    Per one rival scout: “I absolutely loved Quickley … that was the truth, too. I thought he was underrated and consistently proved himself at Kentucky. I wasn’t the only one, but there were plenty of people who weren’t that high on him.”

    At this point, I’m just happy we have him and no longer care whether he would have been there at 33.

  35. Ok, then I guess the answer to my question as to who you’d trade straight up for Quickley from the first 24 picks is maybe Hali? I would imagine some would take LaMelo, but I personally think he has “slightly better than Lonzo” written all over him. Wiseman? Maybe, I’d still vote no.

  36. Today should be a pretty damn good test for Sharife Cooper. If he can keep Auburn in the game, I think you’ll start to see him rocket up draft boards. In other words, he’ll only be accessible to us with the Mavs’ pick.

  37. Alan:
    From the Wasserman piece:

    At this point, I’m just happy we have him and no longer care whether he would have been there at 33.

    There’s a team advantage to picking a guy late first vs. early second if you hit. His contract is essentially guaranteed for 4 years with team options. Maybe he only winds up with a 2-year deal if drafted at #33. Of course, the much bigger risk is having someone else draft him, and from the quote you sited there was at least some interest. Whatever, landing a pretty much guaranteed top-7 rotation player at #25 should put any qualms about “process” to rest. Now maybe the process is unique to this particular pick, and they fuck up the next draft by using the same assumptions, but for now, they deserve the benefit of the doubt on non-lottery picks.

  38. here’s a 300 minute deep dive into quickley’s #s…. small sample boilerplate caveats of course… but there’s both reason for optimism and reason to be worried…. first the good…

    Assists per 36: 4.9 Assists/TO: 2.27

    Probably the best thing about his game so far and this escaped his college numbers…. he did play pg at the high school level but so did a lot of tweeners in college so it’s nice to see he could potentially progress in this area.. i don’t really see any sort of high level creative ability tho…. he’s pretty much limited to perimeter passing and oops to the rim so far and he’s done basically zero otherwise in the pnr… but he’s taking care of the ball and generally making the right play so far without turning it over too much which isn’t an easy task in the nba…. passing ability does tend to get better with age so not being lamelo or magic with the ball isn’t some sort of mandate…


    FTR .276

    there’s more than a few 3 pt attempts he’s been getting fouled on and i think he leads the league in coaches challenges against…. but this is a good ftr rate to have especially for a perimeter oriented player…. as everyone’s noticed he is drawing a lot of fouls particularly using hostage dribbles and keeping his defender on his hip and going up when they decide to get too close … catchup too fast or trying to sneak a hand in the cookie jar…. this stuff is pretty advanced so it’s very good to see that he has this in his arsenal this early…. how much upside can he get from here? well that really all depends on some of the other stuff which i’ll get to….

  39. 2p% .407 0-3 feet 6%

    for anyone following my posts over the years i always stress this with every prospect…. are they over the mendoza line (40% for guards)… for IQ he’s hugging that line right now.. and while the rest of his shooting is phenomenal… that 2p% anchors the rest of his efficiency (TS .543) despite shooting near 100% at the line and 38% from 3 on a healthy number of attempts..

    but can we expect it to improve? well that’s tough to say… here’s the top 10 players shooting 2p% . 20% FTr and > 40% 3pr within their first 2 years:

    Chris Duhon
    Kirk Hinrich
    Devonte Graham
    Chauncey Billups
    Marcus Smart
    DJ Augustin
    Iman Shumpert
    Terry Rozier
    Jeremy Lamb
    Jerami Grant

    That’s not a great list on the whole and that also doesn’t include a lot of nba chaffe like um.. frank and knox.. and it’s mirroring what he did in college.. the reason his 2p% is tanking though is because of his reliance on floaters (3-16 ft – 44% of his shot attempts shooting 42%) and forgoing attempts at the rim… it’s insanely hard to rely on that shot for any sort of efficiency especially when you’re forgoing rim attempts.. here’s a list of players with famous floaters and their career % from 3-10 ft..

    Steve Nash .445
    Tony Parker .455
    Lou Williams .393
    D’angelo Russel .429
    Steph Curry .419

    the floater is meant to be an adjustment… when the big beats you to the rim it’s a tool for smaller players to finish when there aren’t good passes available… you don’t really draw too many fouls either… it’s basically a midrange shot that’s shot like a layup… and it’s not a good shot and it’s costing him a fraction of a point each time he does it…

    so what can we expect? it’s obviously still early but here’s a range of outcomes:

    bad: if 2p% stays stuck.. devonte graham
    good: if he improves his ftr/2p%//assist rate.. chauncey billups..

    medium? if he ups his 3pr.. lowers usg.. steve kerr..

  40. As to the thought process re: Obi, the jury is still out. Lottery picks are harder because of the pressure to consider the consensus. Passing on a guy widely considered a top 5 pick when he drops to #8 is tough…the only guy picked above Obi that was not a top-8 consensus pick was Williams, but by draft time his stock had soared. Just about everyone here would have taken Hali or Vassell at #8, maybe a few liked Deni, but I’m still okay with the pick. Obi’s been a late bloomer and I’m inclined to ignore his age and think of him like any other 20yo rookie. He’s shown some promising isolated things, and if he can start building an NBA game from scratch I think he’ll develop into at least a “good” player.

  41. Per one rival scout: “I absolutely loved Quickley … that was the truth, too. I thought he was underrated and consistently proved himself at Kentucky. I wasn’t the only one, but there were plenty of people who weren’t that high on him.”

    this type of stuff always comes out when people do well after the fact… people come out of the woodwork and say that he was their guy…. there were scouts and articles taking victory laps on kevin knox after summer league if we all remember that….

  42. Alan:
    From the Wasserman piece:

    At this point, I’m just happy we have him and no longer care whether he would have been there at 33.

    Yeah, where he was picked has become a moot issue. The bigger process issue was trading the 33rd pick.

    I get the Hali/Quickley discussion, but we could have had both. What an exciting backcourt that could have been.

  43. Good stuff djphan, especially the part about the floater. He clearly loves it so convincing him to take it less won’t be easy, but he constantly goes to it with plenty of time left on the shot clock and when even a conventional midrange shot might be better. The 40% or so range is impressive…for floater standards, but as you point out it’s meant to be a shot you go to when more efficient options dry up. It’s not like 40%/.80 PPS is an objectively good result.

    I think this could also be the source of some upside though, as if the coaching staff is able to get him to drive more, shoot more threes, and only lean on the floater when he needs to that seems like a pretty easy efficiency boost.

  44. djphan is right, for IQ to become a good player he’s going to have to change his shot selection or figure out how to score on his forays into the paint. He looks like a legitimately good high volume 3 point shooter and he’s a very good FT shooter but his TS% is about average because he’s so bad inside the arc. For a rookie, though? I’ll take that. We should start playing him more than Payton

  45. The Glass Half Rebuilt: You’re taking Luka Doncic over Harden, Durant, Davis, Curry, Lillard, LeBron, Kawhi, Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and Tatum? Not over the next five years, but this season? He is easily the most valuable asset in the NBA but a top 5 player? I don’t think so.

    People will obviously misunderstand this and have a canary, but imo Doncic is overrated in terms of his contribution to winning. He’s a stat stuffer, can’t defend anyone, and makes a lot of terrible shot and passing decisions while piling up those all time great personal stats. If he knew how to play basketball the right way he’d be in the top 3 in the league and in position to take the top spot shortly. But his on court positive impact is lower than it should be because he doesn’t. He’s so young, he’ll probably eventually figure it out, but sometimes extreme confidence, talent and skill makes the decision making more difficult. When you can do almost anything, it’s harder to figure out that you shouldn’t be doing certain things,. That’s where he is right now despite all the hype and numbers he’s putting up.

  46. I think this could also be the source of some upside though, as if the coaching staff is able to get him to drive more, shoot more threes, and only lean on the floater when he needs to that seems like a pretty easy efficiency boost.

    there is some upside.. and again.. if he’s able to unlock it he becomes an approximation of chauncey billups….

    but the reason why so many fail is because they can’t do it… the reason he’s going to his floater is because he couldn’t finish in college towards the rim… there were a ton of embarrassing looking drives for those that looked at his games and to his credit he realizes that he’s not good at the rim…. the answer though is to not forego them completely…. and it’s an open question if he’s capable of doing that…

    that’s the problem with 3p specialists or players that rely on that shot too much… they rely on it because it’s tough for them to generate offense elsewhere…. billups had that problem since college too and he eventually turned into a great shooter that was one of the physically strongest pg’s in the nba which generated free throws on his drives and his post ups… can IQ do that? i don’t know….

    i think the much easier path for him would be to go the steve kerr route…. take out a good chunk of those floater attempts completely…. up his 3pr and try to up his efficiency by just using up less possessions… he’s at 28% usage which is more than RJ at this point… 11% assisted 2p fg% … is that sustainable? i don’t know but he’s not going to be a good player at that usage….

  47. My worry about Quickley is the same as djphan. There’s probably a pretty hard limit to how efficient he can be without getting to the basket more often. He offsets it with his fouls a bit, but he’ll probably always be around league average.

    As for Hali, he arguably has similar problems. He takes 28% of his shots from 3-16ft right now and has hit over 50%. He’s also hitting over 40% of his 3s which is likely to drop.

    On the other hand Hali has been great at finishing at the rim when he gets there and he gets there 11% of the time, not much but a lot more than IQ. Maybe IQs FTs balance it all out since Hali doesn’t draw many fouls.

    Don’t know much about Haliburton’s defense, so on the passing front I’ll just say I trust Haliburton a lot more than Quickley at PG.

    I’d give Hali the overall advantage due to his passing.

  48. Just like almost everyone else on the team, I think Quickly would finish better at the rim if there was more space to actually get to the rim and not have to use the floater. It’s not like he’s taking a floater when he has a wide open path to the rim. He’s taking it because no one has to cover Mitch or Nerlens away from the rim and you can cheat off Randle also. He has a good handle and can beat guys, but he often has no where to go. So he uses his floater to score. It’s an asset to have that option. All these guys, including and maybe especially RJ, would be better if the spacing was better, but we don’t have a lot of guys that can really space the floor.

  49. For Quickley’s floater, I’d rather he keep his dribble alive and try to force the foul on his drive or simply not take the shot, circle around the paint a bit a la Nash or just reset the offense. He goes to the floater so fast sometimes he doesn’t see if someone comes free as the defense collapses.

  50. Deeefense:
    Just like almost everyone else on the team, I think Quickly would finish better at the rim if there was more space to actually get to the rim and not have to use the floater.It’s not like he’s taking a floater when he has a wide open path to the rim. He’s taking it because no one has to cover Mitch or Nerlens away from the rim and you can cheat off Randle also.He has a good handle and can beat guys, but he often has no where to go. So he uses his floater to score. It’s an asset to have that option.All these guys, including and maybe especially RJ, would be better if the spacing was better, but we don’t have a lot of guys that can really space the floor.

    agree…the lane is always clogged on our offense…the fact that he is taking the floaters means that he has beaten his man off the dribble…seems like when there is less congestion…he will go with authority…

    he seems to be figuring out how to get his shot off of the dribble…some kind of quasi-step back a la trae, harden…if he can do that consistently…given his shot is pure…I think he has more offensive upside than Hali…

  51. I think you guys are way overthinking the floater part of his game. Considering that he consistently shoots 90+% from the line, it seems likely that he will be somewhat elite in that range (low-mid 40’s) and the threat of the floater opens up all sorts of other options. It’s an integral part of his overall game. He’s not Nash or Steph or Parker, but doesn’t have to be. He’s definitely getting to the rim more in recent games (his 0-3 shot% went from 3% to 6% in just a few games) so I would expect that he’s on to the need to improve on that.

    The thing is, he has elite hand-eye coordination so the 3pt% is likely to go even higher. I don’t think he’ll ever be a 50-40-90 guy because he isn’t as physically coordinated as Steph and Nash, nor do I see him having the elite floater/at the rim combo game of Parker, so getting to 50% FG% seems out of reach. But he can be a very, very good all-around player even with 20+% floaters and less than 10% at the rim, so long as his 3pt% and FTr stay high.

  52. If the goal is getting rid of Elf and it’s not costing us much except some throw ins like DSJ I think I can see why they’re thinking about Derrick rose. Moving elf to the bench could cause problems but thibs and rose are right and he’s moved into the bench role the last few years. So maybe it’s easier to bring him into that role if they want IQ to start than to move elf to the bench. Rose may not be better than elf but it might be better for the team vibe overall.

  53. IQ is strongly on the All-Rookie team right now.

    Today you could probably only convince me to trade him one for one for Hali, Wiseman and Lamelo (based on hope that he’ll learn to shoot), with long deep thoughts on Vassell, Avdija and maybe Maxey.

    I think if you redraft today he’s in the top ten (as of now he’s third in VORP, third in WS and fourth in BPM).

    If he’s as coachable as they say, he still has a lot of progress available: refine his defense, playmaking and shot selection, but he’s already a solid rotation player.

  54. swiftandabundant:
    If the goal is getting rid of Elf and it’s not costing us much except some throw ins like DSJ I think I can see why they’re thinking about Derrick rose. Moving elf to the bench could cause problems but thibs and rose are right and he’s moved into the bench role the last few years. So maybe it’s easier to bring him into that role if they want IQ to start than to move elf to the bench. Rose may not be better than elf but it might be better for the team vibe overall.

    The Plague and DSJ together cost nearly 3 MIL more than Rose, rumors are that DET likes to shed salary and if true we need to take back other pieces or keep one of the two.

    Remembering Rose’s disappearance the last time he played in NY, it’s funny to think he could be a better locker room influence that Plague (Plague is a better kid than he’s a shooter)… life changes so quickly :-D

  55. Late to the thread (and hugs to Farfa, wonderful coverage!). Pulling some of the conversational threads together, and combining them into a high strat-meter eye take, it seems like Haliburton is playing a chessboard using the entire court, while IQ is playing chess in about a 10-ft radius around himself. The fact that ANY rookie can play chess is a godsend (Frank is still playing checkers while Knox is playing with big wooden blocks), and I fully expect Quick to grow his chessboard with experience at the point. I have a serious crush on Hali’s game, but I’d be hard-pressed to trade IQ straight up for him as I think Quick does have the bigger offensive upside.

  56. IF I did the math right, RJ TS% the last ten games is .576, 3P .40, 2P .496, FT .81

    Is it me or are people here underrating how big RJ’s leap so far has been this season? After a rocky start his numbers the past ten games are damn impressive for a 20 year old who isn’t even a fully grown adult male by standard physiological definitions of the human anatomy. The kid is bodying and bullying grown ass men these days and he can’t even drink alcohol.

  57. I have a serious crush on Hali’s game, but I’d be hard-pressed to trade IQ straight up for him as I think Quick does have the bigger offensive upside.

    That returns to what I was getting at earlier, and with Vorkunov. Hali is obviously the better player right now, even factoring in big scoring nights for IQ like the Cavs game. So the issue is more about who has the higher ceiling, and who has the better chance of reaching that ceiling. We’ve talked a bunch here about the ways IQ can improve his shot profile, and about the challenges of him doing that (especially when it involves getting to the rim). How much better can Hali get from what he is now, what would he have to do to accomplish that, and how likely are those kinds of improvements?

    Also, my son generally does not like watching spectator sports, but he was up late last night huddled with me on the couch as IQ went off, and he loved seeing him swim on the hardcourt after he got fouled taking a 3. I would say he now has a favorite Knick, but then I explained that we have a player named Obi who wears #1, and he’s a Star Wars nut. So Obi-1, it is.

    I feel both elated and guilty about sucking him into this.

  58. One other thing about the floater is that if it’s consistent enough, bigs are gonna come to contest and that opens up opportunity for both lobs and putbacks for Mitch (missed floaters have short rebounds). So I think a better way to analyze his floater game is via PPP on possessions he uses in the 3-10 foot area.

  59. Re: the Porzingus for Quickley trade

    It’s not a perfect scenario because we also could have chose not to sign Portis and the some of the other scrubs we threw $ at like Ellington and still would have been able to sign Morris.

  60. KnickFaninChicago:
    Re: the Porzingus for Quickley trade

    It’s not a perfect scenario because we also could have chose not to sign Portis and the some of the other scrubs we threw $ at like Ellington and still would have been able to sign Morris.

    I generally don’t buy those convoluted this trade led to that outcome scenarios. Suggesting that the KP trade led to Quickley and should therefore be included in what we got for him is a slippery slope.

  61. I also think the Mavs will rebound from this. They just lost to the Nuggets and twice to the Jazz, all of whom are better than them on paper. They’ll probably be a .500 team in a very competitive WC.

  62. The Porzingis debate is so over for me. I do wonder why people who are knowledgeable about that situation continue to belabor it. The trade was a plus from the beginning because we weren’t saddled paying Max money to a disgruntled and career WS/48 .108 player with a severe medical/injury history. If you think a player producing that level of value is worth the drama and contract then the deal was dud. But the rest of us shouldn’t continue to look back.

  63. My only qualm with the KP trade is I think we could have negotiated a better deal, but agree that in any case, we’re better off for having made it. He was an injured, expensive, underperforming primadonna with some off-court issues, so trading him was the right move. And if KP continues to play like this and/or get hurt, it will look more and more like a smart move, even a steal if this year’s pick is in the lottery.

  64. Trading him wasn’t the issue. It was attaching the Hardaway and Lee contracts to the deal in the hope that Durant and a sidekick would sign here that summer, because we could have gotten significantly more trading KP by himself. (And also, it was believing that DSJ would be a significant part of the trade haul.) But it’s still worked out non-terribly, because Randle (our consolation prize when KP went to Brooklyn) is now playing out of his mind on a good value contract, while Dallas at the moment isn’t as good as everyone assumed they would be, which at least gives this year’s pick some value. But I wonder what a non-Steve Mills exec could have gotten had he offered KP by himself to every team in the league.

  65. Taking a closer look at Hali, his numbers have come down quite a bit lately. He’s still got a .609TS% but on only a 15.9% usage. He doesn’t rebound or get to the line. I think he’s better than the numbers suggest, and can be a glue-guy starter on a contender, but maybe the league is figuring him out a bit right now.

    In other words, IQ vs. Hali is indeed a reasonable debate…and IQ has to be in the ROY conversation right now.

  66. I don’t really hold that against rose. It was years ago at this point under Phil who drove all of us crazy. Plus rose and thibs are tight and rose has settled into that bench role the last few years. I’m just saying there might be locker room reasons why they’re worried about moving elf to the bench.

    I’d go with other options first but I can see the logic behind it.

  67. Alan:
    Trading him wasn’t the issue. It was attaching the Hardaway and Lee contracts to the deal in the hope that Durant and a sidekick would sign here that summer, because we could have gotten significantly more trading KP by himself. (And also, it was believing that DSJ would be a significant part of the trade haul.) But it’s still worked out non-terribly, because Randle (our consolation prize when KP went to Brooklyn) is now playing out of his mind on a good value contract, while Dallas at the moment isn’t as good as everyone assumed they would be, which at least gives this year’s pick some value. But I wonder what a non-Steve Mills exec could have gotten had he offered KP by himself to every team in the league.

    Very fair. The rationale for the trade was misguided, but at least it worked out well in the long run.

  68. The KP trade was poor asset management but looks like it might work out very well because of luck and fortune. Those things are often more important than skill and analytics anyway.

    It looks like the Knicks may have gotten the best player in the 2020 draft at 25 and if the last ten games are the real RJ Barrett, it looks like they got an all-star in the 2019 draft. Those things are WAY more critical to the future of the franchise than whether they got full value in the KP trade. Honestly, if RJ’s last ten games are the real RJ, the baseline projection of guy who progressed from Opening Day 2019 to this between his age 19 and 20 seasons is “potential superstar.”

  69. IQ has “spark off the bench” written all over him right now. I’d rather continue starting games with Payton and pulling him 5 minutes in unless he’s on a roll. Let him D up aggressively vs. elite PGs and on helps and switches so that IQ doesn’t get into early foul trouble.

    If anything, try starting Frank and see whether his shooting is a plus over Payton.

  70. Frank actually would fit very nicely with RJ and IQ, far better than Payton — but it’s likely never going to happen. Three and D combo guard who can guard 3 or 4 positions is exactly what you want there, but it’s not going to happen.

  71. I generally don’t buy those convoluted this trade led to that outcome scenarios. Suggesting that the KP trade led to Quickley and should therefore be included in what we got for him is a slippery slope.

    Yeah, there are times when it is at least a straightforward connection. Once you start getting into the truly speculative stuff like “They used the cap space from that trade to get the players who worked out, while they used their existing cap space to get the players who didn’t” then, yeah, it’s just more than a bit silly.

  72. E, all merc’d out: if the last ten games are the real RJ Barrett, it looks like they got an all-star in the 2019 draft. Those things are WAY more critical to the future of the franchise than whether they got full value in the KP trade. Honestly, if RJ’s last ten games are the real RJ, the baseline projection of guy who progressed from Opening Day 2019 to this between his age 19 and 20 seasons is “potential superstar.”

    RJ is looking great, no doubt about it. I don’t buy the improvement arc so much b/c he probably was better last year than the numbers suggested. I also think teams are not forcing him right or covering him from 3 as much as they will now that his numbers are improving. But it’s very encouraging that he’s playing this well, and superstar is not completely out of the question. Still a long way to go to get there.

  73. Frank actually would fit very nicely with RJ and IQ, far better than Payton — but it’s likely never going to happen. Three and D combo guard who can guard 3 or 4 positions is exactly what you want there, but it’s not going to happen.

    I would like to remind everybody that Frank Ntilikina sucks.

    He’s a career .316 shooter from 3PT so he doesn’t even have the “3” part of “3 and D.” Unless you’re wishcasting on him and looking at his 5 for 9 performance this year as a meaningful sample size. Which some people apparently are.

    I’m gonna go ahead and take a guess that he’s not exactly lighting it up in practice. This guess is based on the 3,800 minutes we’ve seen him play, 3,800 minutes in which he has mostly stunk out the joint.

  74. In a way, it’s also nice, and a bit ironic that Thibs is being cautious with IQ, especially given his thin frame. I mean, aren’t folks usually complaining that Thibs plays guys too many minutes? I mean, it seems like he’s settling in at around 24 mpg, which seems about right for a rookie, no?

  75. Chris Duhon
    Kirk Hinrich
    Devonte Graham
    Chauncey Billups
    Marcus Smart
    DJ Augustin
    Iman Shumpert
    Terry Rozier
    Jeremy Lamb
    Jerami Grant

    when i do comps i like to light my screener on fire and instead try to imagine some vaguely similar player was bitten by a radioactive spider, then mated with a second vaguely similar player (while strictly complying with all relevant covid protocols), and so became a basketball chimera. this is because all bad players except kevin knox are alike, but every good player is good in their own way. like the amount of signal available from iman shumpert and jerami grant’s development may not be quite as hi as i’d like it to be when i’m trying divine the really important shit like whether iq might turn out to like…steve kerr.

    open your mind and consider. say, a gary neal (who had a famousish floater of his own), but one who could get the line on 27% of his FGA and shoot 11 or 12 threes a game. or old friend jamal crawford but as a 38% 3p shooter but shooting a few more 3s. or ben gordon adjusting his game for the modern chuck-it-the-hell up from 3 sensibility. these are still quite low volume rim shooters (remember they would drop further than their actual 7-16% with more 3s) with adjusted (made up) TSs that range from 57-59%. no actual player has looked like this (say, a 10% fga at rim but a career TS of 58% on high over 25% usage, but it seems at least as likely a path to immanuel tomorrow than chauncey billups or marcus smart.

    btw the coolest stat site in nba nerdville is back up and should definitely be fooled around with if bored.

    https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

  76. ***Ok, then I guess the answer to my question as to who you’d trade straight up for Quickley from the first 24 picks is maybe Hali? I would imagine some would take LaMelo, but I personally think he has “slightly better than Lonzo” written all over him. Wiseman? Maybe, I’d still vote no.***

    I’m surprised we haven’t been hit with any Endowment Effect wiki links yet. (You okay Jowles?)

    Quickly has been surprisingly good out of the gate. But I’m old enough to remember Channing Frye blowing our minds in the first few months of his rookie year. He had a mid-range jumper that he was tall enough to shoot over most guys, which he feasted on. He was a front runner for a rookie of the year in February, and was even declared “untouchable” by Isiah. But, in the second half of the season his TS% dropped 50pts as teams pushed him further and further away from the paint. In the end, he had a middling career as a journeyman and ranks between 15th-22nd among his draft class in career in the various career aggregate rankings.

    Oh, and there was a certain flower named Fields that bloomed quickly and wilted just as fast…

    So, enjoy this pleasant surprise, but keep it in perspective. The scars run deep, and history teaches that the honeymoon wanes quickly…

  77. JK47: I would like to remind everybody that Frank Ntilikina sucks.

    He’s a career .316 shooter from 3PT so he doesn’t even have the “3” part of “3 and D.” Unless you’re wishcasting on him and looking at his 5 for 9 performance this year as a meaningful sample size. Which some people apparently are.

    Considering that nearly all of those minutes happened at age 21 or younger, and that he’s a consistently very good FT shooter, I think it’s still too early to conclude that he isn’t going to shoot better from 3 very soon. And the bar set by Payton is low enough to give him a shot at playing. He did well in his limited opportunity this year, why not give him a chance to fail before burying him? I mean, we keep running Knox out there, when any player on the bench would probably be more productive.

  78. Several posters here continue to mention that we could’ve gotten more for KP as self-evident but is that so? Were there other trade proposals on the line so we could gauge that market? If I recall correctly, and please do correct me if I am wrong, but that trade was burdened by numerous mitigating factors that posterity has overlooked. For one thing, there’s the fact that GMs around the league were privy to the same information we are about KP’s mediocre metrics, injury history coming off a major injury, and exorbitant contract demands. Then there was the private issue with KP’s bother Janis not committing to the team and trying to force a trade behind the scenes with a 4 team trade list and the Knicks FO rushing to make a deal before that issue blows up and cratered their leverage even more. Knowing this, why would a team offer more than a few draft picks for a player who wasn’t moving the needle on a losing team, coming off major surgery, who everyone knew was demanding a Max contract?

  79. Donnie Walsh:

    I’m surprised we haven’t been hit with any Endowment Effect wiki links yet. (You okay Jowles?)

    Quickly has been surprisingly good out of the gate. But I’m old enough to remember Channing Frye blowing our minds in the first few months of his rookie year. He had a mid-range jumper that he was tall enough to shoot over most guys, which he feasted on. He was a front runner for a rookie of the year in February, and was even declared “untouchable” by Isiah. But, in the second half of the season his TS% dropped 50pts as teams pushed him further and further away from the paint. In the end, he had a middling career as a journeyman and ranks between 15th-22nd among his draft class in career in the various career aggregate rankings.

    Oh, and there was a certain flower named Fields that bloomed quickly and wilted just as fast…

    So, enjoy this pleasant surprise, but keep it in perspective. The scars run deep, and history teaches that the honeymoon wanes quickly…

    Frye was a 4-year college player picked at #8 who had warts right out of the gate…bad rebounder and defender, etc. but the endowment effect for a #8 pick tends to be really strong. (That was a pretty weak draft class, and Frye, Nate and DLee was a really good haul.) I don’t think comparing him to Quickley at #25 is valid. If we had picked Frye at #25 it would have been a much better story. He was still a top 10-20 player in that draft, depending on the metric.

    Fields is a much better analog, and maybe Nate too. Both looked crazy promising early on, and ultimately disappointed. And Lin is in a category all by himself.

    OTOH, David Lee is a great rags to riches story. So is Trevor Ariza (not for us, sadly).

    I don’t think anyone should imagine #5 in the MSG rafters yet, but this is a very fun story for now. Let’s roll with it!

  80. Ntilakilla:
    Several posters here continue to mention that we could’ve gotten more for KP as self-evident but is that so? Were there other trade proposals on the line so we could gauge that market? If I recall correctly, and please do correct me if I am wrong, but that trade was burdened by numerous mitigating factors that posterity has overlooked. For one thing, there’s the fact that GMs around the league were privy to the same information we are about KP’s mediocre metrics, injury history coming off a major injury, and exorbitant contract demands. Then there was the private issue with KP’s bother Janis not committing to the team and trying to force a trade behind the scenes with a 4 team trade list and the Knicks FO rushing to make a deal before that issue blows up and cratered their leverage even more. Knowing this, why would a team offer more than a few draft picks for a player who wasn’t moving the needle on a losing team, coming off major surgery, who everyone knew was demanding a Max contract?

    We’ve gone over it already, suffice it to say it’s a controversial issue and there’s validity to both sides. Considering that Mills and his well-established penchant for negotiating against himself was the point person on the deal should be enough to suggest that we could have gotten more. The trade was executed a full week before the trade deadline. I don’t think we got fleeced, just out-negotiated by a savvier negotiator.

  81. If ever there was an NBA draft where someone special could slip to #25 it’s this past one for sure. The Covid-19 pandemic shortened the NCAA season and limited freedom of front offices around the league in evaluating prospective draftees. It’s not impossible to imagine a scenario where IQ could’ve lighted up in the midst of March Madness and propelled his stock upward into a top 15 spot.

  82. The best thing about Quickley is that he’s a nice departure from the “if his shooting improves…” rut we’ve been in with regard to draft picks.

  83. Alan: What do you much smarter fans think? Would you bet on Hali or Quickley having a better career? Higher ceiling? Was I just being a homer or does IQ have a better chance of being an actual PG rather than a great secondary playmaker?

    It’s funny that Alan asked that IQ vs Hali question. As I was watching the game last night, I was thinking exactly that. It’s damned close. As far as draft value, IQ is the steal of the draft. ( should note that he’s the second “steal of the draft” because Mitch was one too). But base on what we’re seeing and projecting, it’s really too close to call for me. Haliburton and IQ both can shoot the 3 ball but IQ’s looks more natural. I guess that Haliburton organizes a team better and has outstanding playmaking ability but IQ breaks down a defense better, is a >90% FT shooter who knows how to get to the line. Right now in their careers I think Haliburton is better. But I’ll take into account that Quickley didn’t play point guard in college so he’s skipping a grade to be an NBA point guard. He’s clever and smart which leads me to believe that he will improve dramatically as a playmaker over the next few years. (BTW, it’s why I think that Thibs is brilliant by keeping him on the 2nd team with Rivers because of this. He can learn more from Austin than RJ).

    I might eat my words in a year, but long term, I think that Quickley’s ceiling could be tier-1, perennial all-star and his floor is tier-4, where he’s playing now, rotational backup. Haliburton’s floor might be tier-3, full-time starter, but I think his ceiling is tier-2, best player on his team and occasional all-star.

    I go with IQ,

  84. Ntilakilla:
    If ever there was an NBA draft where someone special could slip to #25 it’s this past one for sure. The Covid-19 pandemic shortened the NCAA season and limited freedom of front offices around the league in evaluating prospective draftees. It’s not impossible to imagine a scenario where IQ could’ve lighted up in the midst of March Madness and propelled his stock upward into a top 15 spot.

    I doubt that this is true. His off-the-ball role would not have changed and he already was drafted much higher than he was projected to go (mid-second). What more likely would have happened was that he would not have raised eyebrows by being picked at #25. In other words, he didn’t “slip” to #25, he slipped to the mid-2nd round and was reached for at #25. Does that make sense?

  85. Good for DSJ, who has asked to play on the G-League team as a way to get reps (and, presumably, to showcase himself for other teams). He’s clearly done here, but at least he’s not in denial about it.

  86. The best thing about Quickley is that he’s a nice departure from the “if his shooting improves…” rut we’ve been in with regard to draft picks.

    Definitely. It is kind of hilarious to think of how many years they went to the same well, so it was a delight to see them going for shooting with that pick.

  87. Of course, it just occurred to me that that was because their original target went too early for the #23 pick and that guy was, naturally, another “if he learns to shoot” guy, so, well, good to be saved from yourself sometimes! Like the Bulls three-way trade in 1984 that fell apart a week before the Draft where they would have traded the #3 pick for Terry Cummings!

  88. I hate the Daily News because its site is unavailable online to most european countries, mine included…

    (middle finger emoji)

  89. Of course, it just occurred to me that that was because their original target went too early for the #23 pick and that guy was, naturally, another “if he learns to shoot” guy, so, well, good to be saved from yourself sometimes!

    That is the one thing that is keeping me from doing cartwheels over the team picking Quickley. They clearly wanted to come out of the draft with Toppin and Maxey. As we discussed the other day, Maxey may yet prove better than IQ, but Maxey feels much more like the kind of player many past Knicks regimes have made mistakes on.

    Speaking of Obi-1, he had some nice moments last night, but I’m not sure how he gets more playing time so long as Randle is in beast mode and the team is trying to keep one of Mitch or Noel on the court at all times. So let’s hope the Knicks are right that good development coaches can help guys improve even if they’re not getting a lot of burn as rookies.

  90. Max:
    I hate the Daily News because its site is unavailable online to most european countries, mine included…

    (middle finger emoji)

    It’s behind a paywall here and I won’t pay to read their trash any longer so you aren’t missing out on much.

  91. Alan: That is the one thing that is keeping me from doing cartwheels over the team picking Quickley. They clearly wanted to come out of the draft with Toppin and Maxey. As we discussed the other day, Maxey may yet prove better than IQ, but Maxey feels much more like the kind of player many past Knicks regimes have made mistakes on.

    Speaking of Obi-1, he had some nice moments last night, but I’m not sure how he gets more playing time so long as Randle is in beast mode and the team is trying to keep one of Mitch or Noel on the court at all times. So let’s hope the Knicks are right that good development coaches can help guys improve even if they’re not getting a lot of burn as rookies.

    I bet we see him taking over Knox’s spot in the rotation soon and when the trading deadline comes, a logjam will be lifted. Thing is, he’s going to need to learn how to play on the wing. He seems like the type that can.

  92. That is the one thing that is keeping me from doing cartwheels over the team picking Quickley. They clearly wanted to come out of the draft with Toppin and Maxey. As we discussed the other day, Maxey may yet prove better than IQ, but Maxey feels much more like the kind of player many past Knicks regimes have made mistakes on.

    I think Maxey will turn out to be a steal himself at #21, but it’s just funny that I was complimenting them for finally looking for shooting when I remembered it was because their first plan to not get a shooter didn’t work out. But hey, however it happened, it got them Quickley, so it’s all good!

  93. Brian Cronin:
    Of course, it just occurred to me that that was because their original target went too early for the #23 pick and that guy was, naturally, another “if he learns to shoot” guy, so, well, good to be saved from yourself sometimes! Like the Bulls three-way trade in 1984 that fell apart a week before the Draft where they would have traded the #3 pick for Terry Cummings!

    Lol very true. I still think it’s cool how they managed to trade back 2 spots and get a better pick than it cost them to move up 4 spots. Of course they punted on that pick, but it was still quick (npi) thinking.

  94. So happy to have a decent young well coached team to root for. I guess Julius, RJ, Mitch, IQ, (hopefully) Obi stay long term. You have good draft picks coming up giving you upside and controllable contracts. Then you have salary left for a max for someone great. I’m still hoping that the 36-36 I predicted pans out and we get a playoff win or two, but even south of that could be OK as long that one more really good piece doesn’t spurn us. FO and coach have a high gpa right now in my estimation. NYK might become an FA destination yet.

  95. I mean, that’s what a reasonable rebuild is all about…a fun situation to root for with light at the end of the tunnel, wins and losses be damned.

  96. open your mind and consider. say, a gary neal (who had a famousish floater of his own), but one who could get the line on 27% of his FGA and shoot 11 or 12 threes a game. or old friend jamal crawford but as a 38% 3p shooter but shooting a few more 3s. or ben gordon adjusting his game for the modern chuck-it-the-hell up from 3 sensibility. these are still quite low volume rim shooters (remember they would drop further than their actual 7-16% with more 3s) with adjusted (made up) TSs that range from 57-59%. no actual player has looked like this (say, a 10% fga at rim but a career TS of 58% on high over 25% usage, but it seems at least as likely a path to immanuel tomorrow than chauncey billups or marcus smart.

    this wasn’t meant so much as a comp list… although there are comps in there…. it’s meant to answer the question… do players that generate offense like quickley tend to improve their 2p shooting… the answer is generally no…. and that’s informative to contextualize everything that’s occurring now…

    gary neal and jamal crawford and ben gordon… these guys are informative in to what quickley is doing now too…. but they sort of took circuitous paths to get to where quickley is now… which is weird… the shotmix that quickley is showing is usually reserved for 30+ yo’s or journeyman types… how is that affect someone starting out in there career? well logic says that he’s just going to get pushed further out of the paint but we’ll just have to see how it shakes out… but it’s the most important question facing his development ….

  97. I mean, that’s what a reasonable rebuild is all about…a fun situation to root for with light at the end of the tunnel, wins and losses be damned.

    Pree-cisely. No more wins based off of Michael Beasley having a freakishly good game. If they win, it’s almost always going to be powered by their young players doing well and if that happens, that’s great.

  98. While I’m here and have read to the end of a thread I’ll make one more observation. Our starting lineup is awkward offensively. How can you have three players on the floor in the modern NBA who you don’t have to guard at the three point line? The defense has been effective so coach seems happy but even Bullock and Burks haven’t exactly made teams pay. I mean how could they, anyway? If they are the only player anyone has to guard. BTW, I’m being charitable when I assume Randle has to be guarded from three. That’s not his game really anyway. It’s really amazing and wonderful we have nine wins. We play 1981 style Hubie Brown basketball. It’s even more regressive than the triangle. But, if another team struggles from three, which happens, we can win. Obviously IQ starting would really impact the offense though it might throw off the D which might be the more important key to success. I love our toughness. If we could get our offense into this decade we might really start winning games on a nightly basis.

  99. “Unless you’re wishcasting on him and looking at his 5 for 9 performance this year as a meaningful sample size. Which some people apparently are.”

    Frank also uploaded an Instagram video where he hit 10 out of 11 3s!
    If you re not thrilled with 15/20 3s it’s not Frank’s fault!!!

  100. It’s Frank’s destiny to find modest success elsewhere. I fear it’s Mitch’s destiny to find big success.

  101. Several posters here continue to mention that we could’ve gotten more for KP as self-evident but is that so?

    I think it’s because we traded KP with negative assets that people think we could have gotten more for him if we just lived with Hardaway and Courtney Lee

  102. Draft night I came up with FVV as a rough comp for quickley because they were both guards who were good 3 point shooters who couldn’t shoot inside the arc but generated a good amount of FTAs, and IQ is having a significantly better rookie season (and is a year younger) than FVV. If he winds up as a better Van Vleet that would be a great return for the 23rd pick.

  103. I think it’s because we traded KP with negative assets that people think we could have gotten more for him if we just lived with Hardaway and Courtney Lee

    Yep, that’s by far the main reason. Another notable bit was that the Knicks didn’t shop the offer, since they knew no other team could do the specific thing they were looking for (give them picks and take back all of Lee and THJ’s money) and they were afraid of the news breaking and KP causing a scene. So there were teams who outright said, “Had they called us, we would have given them a better offer.” Whether that’s actually the case or not, having teams saying that is going to suggest that it might be true.

  104. If he winds up as a better Van Vleet that would be a great return for the 23rd pick.

    Among the more painful parts of the Vorkunov podcast: I brought up the egregiousness of Mills looking at that Kentucky team and thinking Knox was the guy to draft, not SGA, and Vork reminded me that the Knicks signed Ron Baker as an undrafted free agent in the same offseason when the Raptors signed his teammate, FVV.

  105. what i like about IQ at the point is the other team has to respect his penetration (here comes the floater) – so his first step to the left or right leads to movement by the defense to help and he can pass five feet to his left or right and get someone a relatively open shot whenever he wants…

    if we had guys that were capable and felt confident shooting from 3 his assists would rise…

    count me in with the folks who’d like to see frank get one more shot before his knick time is up…

    how tough is it though when you can’t beat elf’s game out on the court…not a lot of time to shine in practice right now…no doubt thibs main concern for an offensive point guard is do no harm – elf is his dependable vet…maybe thibs has told him to stop shooting altogether…like mitch, unless you’re within arm’s reach of the rim – just don’t shoot…

  106. HOT

    If all things go North Pole for us… i wouldn’t exclude Knicks finishing right after Bkn, Phi, Bos, Mil in the East.

  107. Ok..I’ve thought some more about it and I finally see why Thibs is insistent on bringing Quickley off the bench. It really is good for his development. Don’t get m e wrong- I would love to see Quickley starting. But I believe seeing the game from the bench has worked wonders for him as it relates to his poise and confidence playing his game as a rookie who makes mistakes. Yes, he was a PG in the past- though they didn’t use him in that role at Kentucky. That being said, it’s better to ease him into his role as a full time PG at the NBA level because Calipari used him primarily as a catch and shoot guy for 2 years because he was one of a few players who could be the primary ball handler. Most likely because it’s so much easier to craft an offense when a guy who shoots like that doesn’t have to score and set the table all the time.

    Not to compare him to Steph, but while he plays PG really well when no one thought he would- he’s not the traffic director if you will. That’s Draymond. My point is..Thibs is right to bring him along this way. Because once he’s the lead guard, he will have o ton more responsibility as the starter under Thibs. Thibs is gonna lean and lean hard. So make sure the kid has his sea legs as a kid who hasn’t been used as a PG since high school before you give him the keys.

    We just need to replace Payton in the worst way. Where would he waive his NTC to play that would also bring us a serviceable PG who can shoot and hold that spot for Quickley though?

  108. I don’t buy the theory that Thibs is playing IQ off the bench to develop him into a starting PG as long as I keep reading about this team is interested in trading for veteran point guard X. Just now our FO is reported to be keeping an eye for the Levine situation in Chicago. You don’t go around looking at Zach Levine because you believe the future answer at PG is playing on your roster, do you?

  109. swiftandabundant:
    Zach lavine is a shooting guard.

    Maybe they want to bring in another pg to get rid of elf and back up IQ?

    I considered this but RJ is also primarily a 2-guard in this offense. You think they want to permanently move him to the 3?

  110. ***Fields is a much better analog, and maybe Nate too. Both looked crazy promising early on, and ultimately disappointed. And Lin is in a category all by himself. OTOH, David Lee is a great rags to riches story. So is Trevor Ariza (not for us, sadly). I don’t think anyone should imagine #5 in the MSG rafters yet, but this is a very fun story for now. Let’s roll with it!***

    Yeah, I get the enthusiasm and optimism. I don’t want to rain on it. I’m just saying that, from experience, we know that a 300-500 sample is enough to wet one’s appetite, but isn’t a main course. To say you wouldn’t trade Quickley for James Wiseman or any other rookie right now is something that you’ll probably regret saying in a few years (I know YOU didn’t say that, but somebody did, and that was how this conversation started).

    Anyway, if we had drafted Achiuwa, we’d probably be saying the same thing about him and his .632 TS%, and if we’d drafted Tillman we’d be saying the same thing about him and his 1.7 BPM, and if we’d drafted Vassell we’d say we wouldn’t trade him for anybody because of his 3:1 steals-to-turnover(!) rate. That’s just the nature of fandom, I guess. But I feel like after all these years, we as knickerbloggers would maybe be a little less susceptible to it. (But, yeah, as you’ve suggested to me in the past, the Lin experience may still be jading me)

  111. not only is lamelo ball really fucking good at basketball but it turns out he has an elite motor on both ends

  112. IQ was a great shooter in college he’s not Landry Fields but I suppose he could also get nerve damage

  113. I’m still hoping that the 36-36 I predicted pans out and we get a playoff win or two

    i’ll be honest danvt – i thought you were being waaaaay optimistic when you put that down…i thought their ceiling was at most 33 wins…elf and julius were really bad last year and they both came back to start…

    as crazy as it sounds, there’s a chance it happens…

  114. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: Ok..I’ve thought some more about it and I finally see why Thibs is insistent on bringing Quickley off the bench. It really is good for his development. Don’t get m e wrong- I would love to see Quickley starting. But I believe seeing the game from the bench has worked wonders for him as it relates to his poise and confidence playing his game as a rookie who makes mistakes.

    I agree. And Toppin coming off the bench too, for the same reason. And having them play with veterans like Noel and Rivers and having Taj on the bench with them is a good thing too.

  115. ptmilo:
    not only is immanuel quickley really fucking good at basketball but it turns out he has an elite motor on both ends

    there, fixed it for you

  116. “i’ll be honest danvt – i thought you were being waaaaay optimistic when you put that down…i thought their ceiling was at most 33 wins…elf and julius were really bad last year and they both came back to start…”

    I was being waaaay stupid, lol. But something like that is gonna happen in some sport some time. Why not us? Why not now?

  117. I’d trade IQ for Lamelo

    Said it once, will say it again, got that one wrong. That kid can ball.

    Also, dear lord, though I hate the Lakers, let not the Celtics win….

  118. Brian Cronin:
    Crazy ending in the Lakers/Celtics game. I like when the Celtics lose.

    100%. Lakers got lucky though….Kemba usually makes that shot…

    Now let’s go Suns!

  119. robert williams hasn’t played much but he and mitch have basically the same per minute career numbers

  120. ptmilo:
    robert williams hasn’t played much but he and mitch have basically the same per minute career numbers

    They are eerily similar, especially eerie in that they present so differently physically…

  121. Bryan Forbes played 11 minutes and was a -31 tonight. Although tbf DJ Augustine was a -21 in 4.5 minutes, recording one personal foul.

    Christian Wood had a really great night. The Rockets seem, not terrible?

    Memphis looks like they put no one on the floor over 25 tonight.

  122. Owen: Lamelo

    That was tongue-in-cheek, but yeah, I was early to that party….Schmitz was super-high on him and my only real concern about drafting him was the maturity thing, which I think is still a legit concern. But the kid can clearly play at a very high level.

  123. CP3 picked the Mavs apart in the 4th. Their pick stands at 8th with over a quarter of the season played.

  124. Dame Lillard is unbelievable, what a fantastic player, I love him…

    Another good game from Dallas, five straight losses (and Pho was Booker-less)… way to go Mavs!
    WCS played as if he wants Porzingis’ spot in the starting lineup…

    Lamelo with a great game, he’s improving by leaps and bounds from a consistency standpoint.

    I’m not impressed by the Bucks, not at all.

    As of now, Ja Morant wins games, Zion Williamson put up numbers, who do you want?

    Houston with five wins in a row, cleaning the air is good.

  125. In Landry Fields’s defense, didn’t he injure his shooting elbow at some point and basically could basically never shoot again?

    Re: Quickley and Halliburton. Halliburton is going to be a good and useful player for a long time in this league. I haven’t been watching him at all, but going into the draft the take on him was that he couldn’t really create offense on his own, had no chance of a real pull-up game — and the pull-up game is really what elevates the ceiling on ballhandlers-

    That’s why I’m so optimistic about Quickley – he already has the pull-up game. He already knows how to draw the fouls and hit them at 100000%. He already has a step-back 3 in his bag. He’s got just amazing touch – and that’s not something that really can be taught. He moves the ball reasonably well – not elite of course (although I’ve seen plenty of seemingly high level skip passes so far), but lots of guards added stuff slowly over their career ie. Kamba, Lowry etc. He definitely doesn’t like to go to the rack — i didn’t watch a ton of the game the other night, but I remember one play where he had a clear path to the cup and basically traveled because he couldn’t decide whether to take the open layup or pass to a shooter. But he’s 21 – not a finished product.

    It’s not even a question that he should be the starting PG – not because it means anything from a label standpoint, but because I think he would really unlock that lineup. I cannot imagine what is so important about starting a veteran journeyman PG on a 1 year deal making 5M.

  126. Other random thought about Westbrook after reading Zach Lowe’s piece about him basically forgetting how to dribble and having the “yips” — he has not been the same player since he got COVID pre-bubble. No one knows what COVID might subtly do to people – we all know the horrifying death rates, but “long haul” COVID is still unexplained. Young people seem to generally do fine, but what happens when someone who is in the 99.9tth percentile of physical ability (and needs to stay above the 99.8th percentile to succeed) gets COVID?
    There is all this subtle neurological stuff that could theoretically happen. Would not be surprised if there is something like that going on with Westbrook. It’s one thing to miss shots or be unable to get to the basket as much, but another thing altogether to basically forget how to dribble.

  127. Frank: Someone noticed that on the NYK twitter account picture from practice, Payton is not wearing starters’ blue…

    But Burks wasn’t in blue either. So unless Bullock is already back, it may be the pictures were taken before Payton and Burks had put on their full practice gear.

    Zapruder film time?

  128. Frank: In Landry Fields’s defense, didn’t he injure his shooting elbow at some point and basically could basically never shoot again?

    The bloom was off the rose with Fields well before his elbow injury. Jon Abbey and I were all over that one well before the crowd.

  129. Frank:
    Other random thought about Westbrook after reading Zach Lowe’s piece about him basically forgetting how to dribble and having the “yips” — he has not been the same player since he got COVID pre-bubble.No one knows what COVID might subtly do to people – we all know the horrifying death rates, but “long haul” COVID is still unexplained.Young people seem to generally do fine, but what happens when someone who is in the 99.9tth percentile of physical ability (and needs to stay above the 99.8th percentile to succeed) gets COVID?
    There is all this subtle neurological stuff that could theoretically happen. Would not be surprised if there is something like that going on with Westbrook. It’s one thing to miss shots or be unable to get to the basket as much, but another thing altogether to basically forget how to dribble.

    Westbrook has been in decline for several years. He couldn’t get to the basket last year without the Rockets pulling their center.

    Even his dreadful playoff performance was statistically identical to the one he had in OKC the year before, except fewer assists from playing next to Harden.

    I don’t think it’s covid. I think Westbrook just lost it.

  130. @NYPost_Berman
    Tom Thibodeau wouldn’t say if it’s the same starting lineup. Said would be close to the same. Hmmm.

    Hmmm indeed.

  131. Full disclosure: I totally was partying in the bar car the Fields hype train early on…to the point of bringing up Hondo Havlicek as a comparison; it wasn’t until the playoffs that his scrubbiness became fully evident.

  132. People were high on Fields because he was highly rated on boxscore models (I fell for that too), but if you looked closely at his actually skills he was getting wide open looks in D’Antoni’s system due to lack of respect, sneaky offensive rebounds that teams were certain to take away eventually, and he was not particularly skilled in terms of handle, creating shots, or doing much else. That’s why he was drafted where he was drafted. It was just a matter of time before teams took away what he was good at. Later on he got hurt and then it was over for any possible development.

    I don’t see much of a parallel to Quickley. Quickley was developing rapidly in college has a lot of skills now. Other teams skipped on him because they thought he was an undersized SG that couldn’t pay point and he was a little older than some of the other prospects. They were wrong and we were right (or at least our Kentucky connections that knew his game better were right). Quickley is going to be a good player. The debate is how good.

  133. Brian Cronin:
    Crazy ending in the Lakers/Celtics game. I like when the Celtics lose.

    There is never a Lakers/Celtics game I like anymore because someone has to win.

  134. I wonder if certain box-score model adherents who were incredibly dismissive of it are willing to eat some crow (probably not.)

    how often do you think it’s appropriate to put forth this much effort to show you that you were this great fortune teller? are you trying to show people you are this great oracle or something? what does a synergy report supposed to show about his nba game? how does that model his future performance? do you understand these questions?

    and i wrote 4000 words of original analysis on quickley just in this thread… if you have trouble understanding it or why that might be more informative than synergy reports then i can help you….

  135. So much buzz for the zapruder’s practice video went for nothing…

    Bullock in
    Burks out
    The Plague in
    IQ on the bench…

  136. djphan: how often do you think it’s appropriate to put forth this much effort to show you that you were this great fortune teller? are you trying to show people you are this great oracle or something?what does a synergy report supposed to show about his nba game?how does that model his future performance?do you understand these questions?

    and i wrote 4000 words of original analysis on quickley just in this thread… if you have trouble understanding it or why that might be more informative than synergy reports then i can help you….

    yup, that’s the answer I expected.

  137. Noel out today, it’s Taj Time.

    Maybe Randle could play some at the five…

    IQ, Burks, Barrett, Obi, Randle… come on Thibs!

  138. Trying to catch up (and still without having read this post comments), there’s 3 things i’d like to say.

    1 – Alan, listened to the podcast and you represented KB superbly. I liked that Vorkunov started with my joke of watching the first and final games of the Knicks this season, felt instantly connected to the guy. But then he lost me when he said he wouldn’t pay 10M to 12M for Mitch. We have one of the “cheap centers” and we can see crystal clear that Mitch is way better.

    2 – Thanks for the recap, Farfa. Any mention to David Lynch is a treat to me, so thanks in double. And last, i think you’re right about Obi, he’ll never justify the pick, it’s a new “Frank Ntilikina” situation.

    3 – Just to give hope to all of us, a comment i placed on the game thread, but as it got caught in “moderation” probably noone saw it. Here it goes again:
    “So refreshing to have RJ, Mitch and Quickley. Do you guys remember when we were trying (hard) to see a future with Frank, Knox and Dotson?”

  139. Oh, and i don’t know if anyone goes to P&T from time to time, well i do it and for some weeks now i like to read the game previews they do because it’s always full of old photos of games between the Knicks and our opponent on the game they’re previewing. I like it a lot. This time it even has a “Guess who?” enigma at the end of the post, about one of the photos.

  140. cybersoze:
    Oh, and i don’t know if anyone goes to P&T from time to time, well i do it and for some weeks now i like to read the game previews they do because it’s always full of old photos of games between the Knicks and our opponent on the game they’re previewing. I like it a lot. This time it even has a “Guess who?” enigma at the end of the post, about one of the photos.

    Thanks for the heads up. Very fun to see lesser lights from Knicks of yore. Also, Bill Walton.

  141. cybersoze:
    Oh, and i don’t know if anyone goes to P&T from time to time, well i do it and for some weeks now i like to read the game previews they do because it’s always full of old photos of games between the Knicks and our opponent on the game they’re previewing. I like it a lot. This time it even has a “Guess who?” enigma at the end of the post, about one of the photos.

    Ron Harper?

    Let’s go Knicks!

  142. The invisible 6th man isn’t up to the task on PG13, maybe, just maybe, we better try to put a visible man on him

  143. Kawhi is mad at RJ, so tried very hard to defend him. And that’s because RJ is defending pretty well, i like it!

  144. I have to say I just enjoy this team. Very much like the Gallo/Amar’e Knicks – totally rootable.

    The offense may not be sustainable, but you know they are going to D up the whole game, which makes it easier to stay in it as a fan.

  145. rama is cautiously optimistic:
    I have to say I just enjoy this team. Very much like the Gallo/Amar’e Knicks – totally rootable.

    The offense may not be sustainable, but you know they are going to D up the whole game, which makes it easier to stay in it as a fan.

    Well said

  146. rama is cautiously optimistic:
    I have to say I just enjoy this team. Very much like the Gallo/Amar’e Knicks – totally rootable.

    The offense may not be sustainable, but you know they are going to D up the whole game, which makes it easier to stay in it as a fan.

    +1

  147. rama is cautiously optimistic:
    I have to say I just enjoy this team. Very much like the Gallo/Amar’e Knicks – totally rootable.

    The offense may not be sustainable, but you know they are going to D up the whole game, which makes it easier to stay in it as a fan.

    It is an unusual feeling to be actively rooting for the players the Knicks have, instead of slot in a draft. Don’t get me wrong: these aren’t mutually exclusive, but I enjoy development and future planning.

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