2016-17 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Hawks

Happy Martin Luther King day, everyone!

The Knicks have some very impressive African American history that is worth celebrating on a day like today.

They veeeery nearly had the first African American player in the NBA (a few teams each signed one African American player, the other team just happened to play first in the schedule). The Knicks were also the first team to have an entirely African-American roster.

Today, the Knicks host the Atlanta Hawks and what will likely be a difficult game, but what is perhaps more worrisome is that the Hawks are not particularly good, so there’s a chance that the Knicks might actually pull this out.

In other news, Phil Jackson made Charley Rosen write an article about how Phil Jackson didn’t make Charley Rosen write his previous article (I can just hear the phone call now, “Phil, I’m sorry, I don’t know how they broke our brilliantly clever code!!” “It must have been something you did, Charley, go tell them that it was all you! That will fool them all!” It’s never a dull moment with this team!

Let’s go, Knicks?

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250 thoughts to “2016-17 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Hawks”

  1. I had a Celtics fan friend of mine staying at my house this weekend, and of course we talked basketball.

    His team – 10 games over .500, a stud PG, a smart GM and coach and 2 likely lottery picks in the next 2 years

    My team – team spiraling downward, 3 over the hill former All Stars, an incompetent GM and Porzingis.

    Needless to say, I was happy to shift the conversation to football.

  2. So Hornacek’s idea of “punishing the starters” doesn’t extend to Rose and Melo. Nice.

  3. Yeah, bench the starters for better defense! Who should I bench… Can’t bench Rose Melo and Noah, and KP is out, and so is Lance… Courtney Lee it is. Defense be damned.

  4. Actually I love the starting lineup. Second unit needs more defense and shooting. Starting lineup has sufficient shooting this way as well as two guys who play great off the ball in Kuz and Baker. And by the way I would love this lineup withKP at center which is who it would be if he were playing. Lee is obviously better thanBaker but his skill set is prob more in need and valuable on the 2nd unit

  5. 15 years ago today, Latrell Sprewell scores zero points and the Knicks are destroyed by the Hornets at MSG. Only game my daughter ever attended.

    Seems like the good old days.

  6. Lance Thomas’s face is broken and he has a concussion and Lee hasnt been good on D. I dont think its a punishment. Its more of a shake up

  7. Kuz looking good out there.
    It’s a great time to be a Knick fan.
    Really.

  8. So honestly, how many of you are out there lurking right now hoping that Baker and Kuz suck today and the team gets blown out so that you can rant against your own team?

  9. @reub

    I think the dream is Baker and Kuzminskas dominate but the team loses after Melo and Rose hog the ball the last quarter, further encouraging the team to behave rationally, sort of like how when you have a little kid, and you’re trying to teach him or her some lesson through your actions, you have to exaggerate and explain everything that’s going on… like if you teach a lesson about sharing, you say after your partner gives you half his cookie, “I’m so thankful to you for giving me half of this cookie! I’m sure you wanted it all for yourself, but you knew I would enjoy it as well, and you CARE about my feelings too!”

  10. I hope that Baker and Kuz play amazingly well and this team still loses so I can rant against the team I cheer for.

  11. O’Quinn with the 6 second violation there.

    and reub, man, I get so pissed when the Knicks lose, I literally punched my table when Mike Scott made that three… I would want nothing more than to not be pissed so much by the Knicks.

    that’s why I actively root for a high lottery pick and a rebuild, while trying to disconnect emotionally as much as I can from this dumpster fire.

  12. I don’t see the defense improving.

    How do you recognize good defense? The person that you’re guarding wants to punch you in the face. The offensive player needs to smell the defender’s bad breath and feel his sweat.

  13. Dear Bruno and Others,

    Please turn off your TVs and come back next year when we are better because of a 19 yr old rookie named Frank.

    See You Then and Best Wishes,
    Reub

  14. Listen, I can feel outrage over the team’s failures too. But blame the right people like Dolan and Isiah Thomas.

  15. Yeah, let’s blame the guy who ran the team ten years ago instead of the guy who gave out all the shitty contracts to the shitty current players we have.

  16. Melo seems to like to sag in, perhaps to increase his chance to get a rebound, but it does end up leaving open shooters.

  17. Yeah, let’s blame the guy who traded away all of our vital draft picks well past the end of his tenure here instead of the guy who inherited the mess and is righting the ship.

  18. No matter what you say about Melo’s defense, he’s still an amazing offensive player.

  19. I am at the vanguard of the tank brigade because I want the Knicks to win the most the games they can 3, 4, 5 years from now.

    Also this game is the doldrums.

    PS The rot in the Knicks organization begins at the top. It would be a dream if Dolan didn’t care much for basketball and treated them the same as the Ranger

  20. So many excuses for Phil’s utterly lame and ineffectual tenure as GM. It’s almost as if somebody can’t admit when he’s completely wrong about something.

  21. No matter what you say about Melo’s defense, he’s still an amazing offensive player.

    No matter what you say about Melo’s offense, he’s still got a below-average TS%.

    So… yeah, not really. Not amazing at all. Nice and below-average, just where us Knicksers likes our star playerses.

    If Howard were playing normal minutes, this game would be already out of control.

  22. No matter what you say about Melo’s defense, he’s still an amazing offensive player.

    (checks Melo’s B-R page)

    Nah.

  23. No excuses. All of the draft picks save KP were gone already when Phil took over. It’s a fact. Please see reality and put your Phil hatred aside. He does own 13 championship rings. I’m not making it up.

  24. no, I won’t turn off my tv and I won’t stop posting here.

    good luck learning how to deal with different opinions.

  25. So, did Phil try to restock and maybe, you know, like ACQUIRE some draft picks? Nope. He signed Joakim Noah to a contract that immediately became one of the worst in the NBA and traded for Derrick Rose. Because Win Now!

    And that all worked out like complete shit, 13 rings or not.

  26. Reub, Phil Jackson inherited a decent situation. He had 29 year old Carmelo Anthony, who at that point was considered by most to be a top 10 player, and he really had no bad contracts. Bargnani and Stoudemire were scheduled to expire after PJ’s first full season as GM, and the team won 37 games despite getting next to zero production from their combined $35m in salaries. Tyson Chandler was getting older but still had value around the league, 2 years removed from DPOY, and Shumpert had some value.

    Yes, the Knicks still owed a pick from the Bargnani/Melo trade, but as far as situations go that new GMs can walk into, most are pretty bad, and the Knicks were on the better end of that spectrum.

    Well, here we are almost two years later, and the team is worse and just as old and with more bad contracts on the books than when Jackson started. Yes, there’s KP. Had we drafted a pick or two higher, Jackson probably would no longer be running the team. At a certain point though, that one shining moment can’t outshine the overall track record and the product on the floor.

    Does Phil Jackson exist on the Knicks because of Dolan? Definitely. Would the Knicks be in a better position if previous GMs had done a better job? For sure. But Phil Jackson has not really changed the team or its philosophy.

    And Phil Jackson isn’t the Knicks. Carmelo isn’t the Knicks. Rose isn’t the Knicks. The Knicks are a uniform with blue and orange and white and a basketball on a triangle. Rooting for that uniform doesn’t require rooting for every player who wears it or every person involved in choosing the players who wear it just like being a patriot doesn’t require supporting every choice your president makes. I don’t see much of a difference between rooting for the players to play better and rooting for the front office to get better players. Both support the same goal of seeing the Knicks do well.

  27. at least ruruland made sure he handpicked Melo stats for arbitrary stretches to come post here before telling people who have rooted for the Knicks for twenty years to switch teams because they disliked melo.

  28. When Phil took over, the Knicks owed ONE first round pick. ONE. As in, the number that is one more than zero. That pick was used to select Jacob Poeltl. Let’s not pretend that the thing that was holding Phil back was that one pick in a weak draft. That’s a pathetic excuse.

  29. @ 37 – actually, Phil did try to acquire picks. Its just hard to do so when you have no assets. He inherited a team with STAT and Bargs.

    He traded Chandler for some young players, none of whom worked out.
    He traded Shump and JR for second rounders.
    Pablo for second rounders.
    THJ for a first rounder (granted he traded that player a year later).

    We have all of our first round picks going forward and multiple second round picks in the next three or four drafts.

    Now did he sign dudes in Noah and Lee who are now maybe hard to trade (esp Noah). Sure.

    But I don’t think Phil has done everything wrong. He’s made moves without sacrificing draft picks. If he is fired or quits he leaves us in a better position than his predecessors. All is not lost.

    The question is what does he do in the next few weeks if we keep losing before the deadline. A Melo trade might be impossible before this deadline. But he has an opportunity with KQ at least to make a trade for some more picks (a late first rounder or second rounders). Jennings might net you something too. Lee is a possibility too even though he’s got 3 years left its not above market rate and he shoots well, decent defender, good locker room guy and has a history of being solid.

    You look to move KQ, Jennings and Lee for draft picks, even if its just a lot of second rounders. Maybe throw Holiday and Kuz into the mix if something presents itself.

    Make a Melo or Rose or Noah move if one presents itself otherwise just hold tight. Rose expires so no biggie. Noah’s value could continue to rise. Melo might ask for a trade this off season and that might be the easier time to do that. Having Noah on the team during a rebuild won’t be a bad thing and could actually be good to instilling good defensive instincts into the team of youngsters.

  30. THJ just drained a three as Melo was running away from him trying to rotate away.

  31. Kuz is playing his ass off tho

    First career NBA start and one HECK of a shiner

  32. Kris Humphries has made his 7th, 8th, and 9th three pointers of the season tonight.

  33. This could be a game where Hornacek sits Rose in the 4th. He can’t guard Schroder.

    But then you run the risk of D Rose running away to Mommy again

  34. Grant and Baker would’ve been a good young defensive frontcourt

    And Grant would be the best guard on the team (ha!)

  35. Before you go too crazy about Hardaway, remember why we hated him. He’s getting torched by Justin Holiday.

  36. @41 that’s what I’ve been saying all along as well. The best assets Phil had had to work with are Carmelo, the 2015 first round pick, and $$. I’d argue that he’s tried to assimilate the improving record of a rebuilding team (17 wins to 32 wins to what we were going to be btwn 41-45 win team this year) by using cap space (what he had) instead of draft picks (most of what he didn’t have).

  37. Man, last two games vs the Knicks, Millsap is a combined 9 of 38 from the field and 5-14 from the line.

  38. Rose might be worse than Calderon on defense

    At least Calderon didn’t fall asleep on defense and got the occasional steal

  39. In case any of you were worried when the Knicks went up by 5… it’s 103-all.

  40. We had like 3 o rebounds on the last play and couldn’t convert. The lack of a foul call was bad but we deserved the loss.

    We deserve all the losses!

  41. Guys please remember that we played without our future Hall of Famer before you flame out.

    And I don’t mean Frank Ntilikina.

  42. Welp… those of yall that wanted Kuz and Ron Ron to play well but see the team lose, ya got ya wish.

  43. What did Melo do that was hard to root for today? I dont get it? Rose was absolutely awful all game

  44. Guys please remember that we played without our future Hall of Famer before you flame out.

    Atlanta didn’t have Howard.

  45. Winning or Losing this one don’t really matter
    the fact is that we play bad basketball right now

  46. Melo was great today though his D was still poor.

    Rose was a god damn insult to professional basketball

  47. Carmelo had a pretty good game but I still don’t want him on the Knicks

  48. It must suck to be on this team. They either lose a heart breaker by 1 or get blown out. No in between

  49. 2-11 since Christmas. Lots of Knickerbloggers are tankful that their wishes are being fulfilled.

  50. Great loss! The Knicks really gutted out a hard defeat. Its the type of failure that just wears on a team.

  51. How can so called Knick fans root for their team to lose? It’s perverse.

  52. @ reub – “It’s a great time to be a Knick fan.
    Really.”

    Pass me the crack pipe when you’re done please…..

  53. It’s more perverse rooting for a 4-0 stomping by Cleveland or Toronto in the first round while watching Rose turn the ball over a million times and never pass

    PJ doesn’t deserve any kind of validation, not even a playoff appearance.

  54. Melo had 30 on 16 shots. Noah with 17 boards. Baker was 4-7 from downtown. Rose had 18 and 9 on 50% shooting. You’d think those would be numbers that lead to a win.
    But nope…

    11 turnovers btwn Rose and Melo. Schroder scoring at will and his only 3 ball ends up being the game winner. *bleh*

  55. How can a real Knicks fan root for this team to win? That’s the real perversion.

  56. The tank will now continue, the rats will eat each other trying to get off the sinking ship, and the new era can begin. It will be beautiful.

  57. The problem with the tank is that the knicks aren’t THAT bad. In two of the three last second losses there were clear blown calls on the last possessions- Rose not getting the foul call and no 5 second call on the freak. Win those two and the Knicks are 20-22 which seems about right for this team. I think the Knicks really need to lose the next two decisively to force Phil’s/Dolan’s hand and get them to blow the team up (if that’s even possible- there aren’t going to be a whole lot of takers for what the Knicks have). Otherwise, KP comes back and the Knicks probably wind up winning enough games that they’ll be either at the very bottom of the lottery or getting swept by the Cavs.

  58. We faced a Hawks team traveling to MSG playing a midday game on a back to back without their best defender and rebounder. This was a very winnable game. We’re not a good team.

  59. We also won some very close games earlier in the season that could’ve gone either way.

    These 15 or so games leading up to the All star break will probably decide our fate. I could see them being 10 games under .500 at that point.

  60. 4 weeks ago this team was winning every close game. The virus has really set in now.

  61. Melo is hard to root for because he gives zero effort on defense, and more so when he turns the ball over. I don’t care about pointz Melo, I loved complete Melo from last season before he stepped on that ref

  62. In all seriousness, this is the simple truth of pythag and expected wins. When you are a mediocre team, you win some close games and you lose some close games.

  63. We can be mediocre now, better later, and great in the future. We can have it all.

  64. I feel as if our entire approach in these close games dooms us to failure. This whole ball hog sharing strategy between Melo and Rose where each takes turns dominating a possession down the court really seems predictable and easy to defend. Its like the principals of sharing the ball and finding an open man for a high percentage shot goes out the window in favor of hero ball.

  65. @119 Agreed

    I dislike hero ball as much as the tankers do. Or do they?

  66. @118

    In order to be mediocre you need to have a mediocre record. We’re shitty now.

  67. Melo increased his value today and I think that we all agree that’s a good thing.

  68. @120

    As a tanker I can say that I hate hero ball in general but sooooo love it for the Knicks right now. Every close loss where Melo/Rose fail and miss dominating the last minutes of offense only highlights why this team won’t go anywhere with them heading the ship.

  69. @nicos

    Knicks got the coin flips early in the season and I believe are still over .500 in games decided by 4 or fewer points. If you go back and look at our tank season, it started the same way (although on a grander scale). We lost a ton of close games early in the season, and then things spiraled out of control as injuries hit and then Jackson blew it up. Of course, that season we started 5-36… quite a bit worse than 18-24.

  70. Even if Melo waived the NTC without publicly tanking his trade value, does anyone expect Phil Jackson would actually extract reasonable value in the exchange? I’m not even talking about a Masaian heist, I’m talking about any kind of future contributor in the form of a player or a pick. Don’t we all remember the Shump/JR and Chandler trades?

  71. @126

    Beggars can’t be choosers. Besides, this is about addition through subtraction.

  72. The Chandler trade wasn’t bad on paper. The young guys we got back didn’t work out and neither did Calderon or Dalembert. But on paper it was a solid trade at the time.

  73. You know, all things considered not a bad game to attend. Solid play from Baker and Kuz, close throughout, and another one for the loss column. The tank rolls on.

  74. I’d like Melo to go because I don’t like watching him and I don’t have the good sense to stop tuning in. But strictly thinking about 3 years from now, letting him play out the deal might be the move. This should be a bottom feeding team for another year or two and he has yet to impede a tank. He’s got an option year after next season for $27 MM. I don’t know what kind of contract he’ll be in line for then, but I’ll assume he stays in NYC.

    On the other hand, the Shump/JR trade begat The Lance Thomas Contract. The Chandler trade brought back Calderon who Phil said would be easy to trade. Jose’s departure last summer was celebrated as addition by subtraction, except they paid in assets to do it and replaced him with someone as bad or worse and 3x as expensive. I’d do backflips for a Melo trade with a middle of the road outcome but Phil Jackson doesn’t know what the fuck he’s doing.

  75. Tanking is getting harder and harder these days

    Even after this tanktastic stretch we are still with the 13th worst record.

  76. @126 yes I do, because Melo’s value around the league is higher than any of those players.

    And let’s not forget: JR Smith may have reduced Shump’s trade value bc no one wanted JR. And Felton may have reduced Chandler’s value because Felton sucked donkey balls in ’14 and we needed to get rid of him.

    We don’t have any players that are untradeable to the levels of JR and Felton, especially if Noah stays healthier and continues his improved play.

  77. The Chandler trade wasn’t bad on paper until you consider the haul that Dallas gave up for a washed up Rondo and the fact that Phil chose Cleanthon Early’s draft pick over Jae Crowder. Phil couldn’t negotiate his way out of a wet paper bag

  78. Phil chose Cleanthon Early’s draft pick over Jae Crowder

    That was actually a rare case of Phil saying something negative about himself, so, of course, it was also full of shit. He had some nonsense about Crowder that didn’t make sense.

  79. @133 if that’s true then those were the wrong trades. Why use Shump’s or Chandler’s value to offset liabilities in JR and Ray? Why not just cut them and bring back the best haul you can when trading your actual assets? It’s insane

  80. The Chandler trade wasn’t bad on paper. The young guys we got back didn’t work out and neither did Calderon or Dalembert. But on paper it was a solid trade at the time.

    It was a mediocre trade at the time (not good but not bad, either), but only if you thought (like we all did, myself included) that the Knicks were about to compete for the playoffs. It made no sense for a bad team. Phil thought they were the former when they were the latter (I mention this more to remind everyone that the one awesome thing about Jackson’s tenure came about due to Jackson being flat out wrong about how good the team was going into that season).

  81. Let’s not forget the Knicks immediately cut the best player they brought back for Chandler- Wayne Ellington

  82. We can be a beautiful great oceanliner that just keeps moving forward and never takes on water. We can gorge ourselves on food and drink, sing songs on the high seas, and never worry about running aground (again). We can be great without becoming deliberate losers and tankers aka SS Nilitikina. Positive thinking folks.

  83. @ 108 “Melo had 30 on 16 shots. Noah with 17 boards. Baker was 4-7 from downtown. Rose had 18 and 9 on 50% shooting. You’d think those would be numbers that lead to a win.
    But nope… ”

    When they treat playing defense like it’s radioactive they can overcome any combination of seemingly winning offensive stats

  84. I thought Crowder went from Dallas to Boston

    He did, but what Jackson said is the following:

    “I don’t consider hiring Fish [Derek Fisher] a mistake because he worked hard and got the guys to stay as positive as possible while the losses piled up. I think the biggest mistake I made was actually this. … One of the first deals I engineered when I came back to New York was to trade Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton to Dallas for Shane Larkin, Jose Calderon, Wayne Ellington, Samuel Dalembert, plus a second-round pick that the Mavs owed to the Celtics.

    “In talking with Boston, I was given the option of taking that pick or else taking Jae Crowder. I liked Crowder but I thought he wouldn’t get much of a chance to play behind Carmelo [Anthony], so I took the pick, which turned out to be Cleanthony Early. While Cleanthony has missed lots of time in the past two seasons with us, he still has the potential to be a valuable player. Even so, I should have taken Crowder.

    As you noted, Crowder was on Dallas, so, well, what was Jackson talking about?

  85. Let’s not forget the Knicks immediately cut the best player they brought back for Chandler- Wayne Ellington

    They also effectively cut Shane Larkin by turning down his option before the season began, because Phil wanted cap room more than anything, as he thought he was going to have the team around .500 and then he would sign two big free agents, who would come play for him (and take pay cuts, of course) because, well, duh, he’s Phil Jackson.

  86. @138

    June 25, 2014: Tyson Chandler Traded by the New York Knicks with Raymond Felton to the Dallas Mavericks for Jose Calderon, Samuel Dalembert, Wayne Ellington, Shane Larkin, a 2014 2nd round draft pick (Thanasis Antetokounmpo was later selected) and a 2014 2nd round draft pick (Cleanthony Early was later selected).
    December 18, 2014:Jae Crowder Traded by the Dallas Mavericks with Jameer Nelson, Brandan Wright, a 2016 1st round draft pick and a 2016 2nd round draft pick to the Boston Celtics for Dwight Powell and Rajon Rondo. (Boston also receives $13M trade exception.)

  87. Yeah, er, sorry, I meant the later quote I posted from Jax. Can you parse that quote with those facts you just posted?

  88. Jackson saying this:

    “I don’t consider hiring Fish [Derek Fisher] a mistake because he worked hard and got the guys to stay as positive as possible while the losses piled up. I think the biggest mistake I made was actually this. … One of the first deals I engineered when I came back to New York was to trade Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton to Dallas for Shane Larkin, Jose Calderon, Wayne Ellington, Samuel Dalembert, plus a second-round pick that the Mavs owed to the Celtics.

    “In talking with Boston, I was given the option of taking that pick or else taking Jae Crowder. I liked Crowder but I thought he wouldn’t get much of a chance to play behind Carmelo [Anthony], so I took the pick, which turned out to be Cleanthony Early. While Cleanthony has missed lots of time in the past two seasons with us, he still has the potential to be a valuable player. Even so, I should have taken Crowder.”

    How does that make sense? Why was he talking to Boston? It makes no sense, right?

  89. Yeah, that confirms that Crowder was on the Dallas roster at the time of the Chandler trade. I think in the article Brian quoted, Jackson said “in talking with Boston” but meant “in talking with Dallas”. It’s the one thing that makes sense to me.

    Seeing those two trades side by side, when Tyson Chandler had or should have had greater trade value than Rondo really highlights what I’m talking about. I know teams pay a premium for in-season acquisitions, but that doesn’t nearly account for the entire difference.

  90. Boston did well with that Trade. Sheesh

    Yeah, yikes. That was an awesome deal for them.

  91. How about getting Isaiah Thomas for Marcus Thornton and a 1st round pick (Cleveland’s)? Or getting every Nets pick ever for aging Pierce, Garnett and Terry?

    I’ve always hated Danny Ainge, but the man can GM.

  92. I think Melo still has value as a trade chip, so if Phil actually moved him I would like to see something come back. That said, even if we dumped him for nothing but an expiring deal, I would reluctantly take that.

    The culture of this team needs to change. The offensive gameplan and defensive effort need to change. The CAA bullshit needs to change. All that can only be accomplished with Melo gone.

  93. Dalembert put up numbers that made him look like a good pickup that year. Dude fell off a Grand Canyon sized cliff.

    On the flip side Chandler was an aging player dependent on athleticism that had a mediocre season and a history of injuries.

    The trade wasn’t good, wasn’t terrible, but fairly meh.

  94. Melo is becoming a parody of himself. He does just enough, good or bad, to lose anyway.

  95. @158

    Its a good thing he continues have games like this. He lights up the stat box for dumb GMs while we lose.

  96. This has been a good day at sea for the SS Ntilikina.

    1. The Knicks lost

    2. King Kuz and Ron Baker Shot Maker both played well

    3. Melo had a good shooting night, maintaining his trade value

  97. @136 I believe you’re talking about cutting/waiving players in JR and Felton that had more than one year left on their deals (someone correct me if I’m wrong). So then you’re looking at paying players who aren’t going to be on the team, which means you’re using cap space on them. This isn’t the NFL: you just don’t cut players like that, or else more teams would do it. So you try to parlay those contracts into something of better value, or a similar priced contract with a shorter length to get out of the financial obligation sooner.

    @156 I agree, especially when looking at Dalember’s #s in the previous season and thinking he could be a limited but reasonable facsimile of Chandler.

  98. God bless the team dumb enough to take Melo off our hands

    I swear there’s one out there. I don’t know if the Knicks are smart enough to find them, but there’s one out there.

  99. This year’s Accidentank may be the tank to end all tanks. If we end up with a Melo trade, a PJax opt-out/firing, and then we hire somebody from Ujiri/Buford/Bob Myers’ staff I would be so excited. Phil has to get fired and Melo should be traded to greener pastures so we can get this show on the road.

    In reality we’re just going to somehow extend Melo, trade our 1st rounder and Courtney Lee for Khris Middleton, and give Derrick Rose $150M.

  100. Its a good thing he continues have games like this. He lights up the stat box for dumb GMs while we lose.

    @160

    Exactly. There are some intangible, psychological, spiritual, metaphysical etc… factors that separate winners from losers in otherwise close competitive contests. The winner has the ability to step up to a higher gear for just long enough get a critical stop or make the winning play. The loser can play great all game, put up impressive stats, look unstoppable, but at the moment of truth he sinks instead of rising. That’s what Melo has been for NY. The good news is that most mathematically inclined people think what I am saying is a bunch of crap. They just looks at the stats. That’s good for us. As long as Melo keeps putting up numbers like he did today, we have a chance of finding someone that wants him enough to give us something of value back.

  101. Forgot about the game, just watched the condensed clip on league pass, that was winnable lol

    Trade Melo for Wiggins, since he wanted to play for Tom… maybe they can make a Mini run.. haha

  102. 76ers are taking it to the Bucks.

    The 76ers have a decent chance of pulling ahead of the Knicks before this season is over. They have a legitimate blossoming superstar and a few other decent young players. If Simmons can be productive when he comes back, they will blow past NY. They are starting to learn how to finish games and win.

    By the way, Chasson Randle is playing well for them so far.

  103. Exactly. There are some intangible, psychological, spiritual, metaphysical etc… factors that separate winners from losers in otherwise close competitive contests. The winner has the ability to step up to a higher gear for just long enough get a critical stop or make the winning play. The loser can play great all game, put up impressive stats, look unstoppable, but at the moment of truth he sinks instead of rising. That’s what Melo has been for NY. The good news is that most mathematically inclined people think what I am saying is a bunch of crap. They just looks at the stats. That’s good for us. As long as Melo keeps putting up numbers like he did today, we have a chance of finding someone that wants him enough to give us something of value back.

    Hey this is asinine borderline idiotic

  104. Courtney Lee: “You can just rid of stuff after posting and no one notices, right?”

  105. Courtney Lee’s shenanigans are symptomatic of the larger problem affecting this assemblage of mercenaries we call a team. There is no accountability. Our own players continue to clown the coaching staff in the most public ways. He should be benched and traded.

  106. Anyone remember this text from over a week ago?

    Just got a text from a person close to a new Knicks player. "He didn't come to New York for this" …it's make or break time for this group.— Sports News (@JSports_ent) January 3, 2017

    I guess we can safely identify the anonymous player as Courtney Lee.

  107. Like I said, the rats are starting to eat at each other as they try to exit the sinking ship.

  108. These players are human. They want to win (unlike most of you). It hurts when they don’t and they can sometimes succumb to lashing out in their longing to be winners. I applaud Courtney Lee’s quest for greatness.

  109. Reub, what’s your username on 4 Chan? I don’t frequent that site but I’m just curious if you go by “anon” or what.

  110. @180

    They’re overpaid assholes. They are being paid millions to be professionals. They should do their jobs and win. If they can’t win then STFU and collect a check. Jesus.

  111. Don’t worry reub, one day we’ll get that first round thrashing you so desperately long for

  112. Who knows, we might surprise somebody if and when we get to the first round. Btw, I was very happy with what I saw from Baker and Kuz today…two more chips for the upcoming championship seasons.

    Jowles, I don’t know what you’re talking about as usual.

  113. They’re overpaid assholes. They are being paid millions to be professionals. They should do their jobs and win. If they can’t win then STFU and collect a check. Jesus.

    Oh nice. Lets throw in code words like “overpaid”. Cool. And “STFU” and collect a check. double cool. …….

  114. The Knicks are 1-5 in games without Kristaps Porzingis this season.— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) January 16, 2017

    dumb post once again. sigh. Hes called the unicorn because hes good.

  115. LOL.

    1. There’s no code here genius. I said they were overpaid, which they are. You want to be moronic and argue that the FA mercenaries like Lee who play on this team live up to their paychecks then I’d like to see the logic behind it.

    2. He just isn’t good. He’s our best player. Mad?

  116. You know what is super hilarious to me? Remember all the hype in New York? "Knicks" lost 10 of their last 12 and "76ers" won 6 of last 8— Andrius Dainys (@AndriusDainys) January 16, 2017

  117. I’m thrilled with what I saw from Baker and Kuz today. Willy gets a tingle up my leg too. I also like NDour and Plumlee going forward. Obviously KP is a god. Plus 3 draft choices coming up next year. I’m very happy with this team going forward.

  118. I was in favor of trading overpaid merc Derrick Rose before but I came to the realization that he’s probably the biggest reason why we’re losing so many games in a row. He cost us the game with that lazy, slow closeout on Schroeder’s three ball and then with that blocked layup. Someone here said it before but he might really be our tank MVP.

  119. Denver and Philly win today. We’re making up some important ground on our tank progress so far.

  120. LOL. I see Melo’s act is getting more and more tired by the minute. Clyde said he should keep his mouth shut.

  121. They’re overpaid assholes. They are being paid millions to be professionals. They should do their jobs and win. If they can’t win then STFU and collect a check. Jesus.

    This type of bullshit moralistic HOT TAKE is exactly the opposite of the stats-based philosophy this site is built on.

  122. This type of bullshit moralistic HOT TAKE is exactly the opposite of the stats-based philosophy this site is built on.

    Stats-based philosophy is pro-overpaid, unprofessional conduct?

  123. @196

    Yeah, I am just glad we lost against them though. We’re 1.5 games behind placing for a top 10 pick.

  124. @199
    That is a stat. +2 to the number of Knicks calling out the coach! For the week, +3.
    :-)

  125. I mean honestly I don’t blame Lee for being pissed. Why should he get benched?

    At some point when FA after FA comes here and turns into an awful player we have to ask why? Lee has played in the league for 10 years and has always been good and professional anywhere he’s gone. I’m sure he knew he was gonna be more of a role player with Melo, Rose and Zinger on the team but dude doesn’t get a lot of shots at all. He’s a solid player. I’d trade him for a draft pick or two if possible but he is someone I would not care if we hold on to for awhile as he is not the problem.

  126. This type of bullshit moralistic HOT TAKE is exactly the opposite of the stats-based philosophy this site is built on.

    There’s nothing wrong with telling a person who is paid — win or lose — to play basketball per the terms of his contract.

    This isn’t a scenario in which people are telling Courtney Lee to shut up about social justice or inequity or something like that. This dude is maybe criticizing his manager on public social media. I know for damn sure that I’d be fired if I did that.

  127. Yeah this team is definitely collapsing

    Props to Hornacek for putting Baker and Kuz into the starting lineup–that was smart and took balls, especially when the team is turning on him

    This is looking like his last year in Phoenix all over again where he loses a team through no fault of his own

  128. Wow, so Jennings and Lee are now taking shots at Hornacek. Getting uglier.

    Their jimmies are extremely rustled by Opie taking their minutes…. doesn’t Horny know they are “STARZZZ”!!!

  129. We have a new young team too. KP, Willy, Kuz, Baker, NDour, Plumlee. I could watch them all day long.

    Horny tried mixing the veterans with the youth in the lineups today and I think that’s a good idea going forward.

  130. Did anybody actually see Lee’s post? I did, and it struck me immediately that he chose an image where one of the guys kind of looks like Ron. Coincidence, perhaps, but he was clearly calling out the coach and possibly mocking Ron as well. I hope the latter is not true.

    And, hey, Ron played well.

    Lee does have a right to be pissed. Rose should be benched instead of him. But, what he did was foolish.

    I do worry a bit about Hornacek. He deserves better than this.

  131. Courtney hasn’t exactly been inspiring on defense and has kind of ignored coach suggestions re: being more aggressive. He’d be one of the last starters I’d bench but if you’re losing and need to switch it up Baker’s natural position is the 2. And Baker played like he deserved to start this game and others.

    I’m sure the coaching staff sat him down and let him know–if he were mature, he’d understand that they were trying to switch things up and it wasn’t about him per se. Instead, he mouths off passive aggressively, which is silly.

  132. Lee shouldn’t even be the one benched in the first place… but if he reacted this way, who cares, he wasn’t playing defense also.

    I would understand tho if he was pissed cause he was benched for that and Rose and Melo weren’t… then it makes total sense and shows how much his team is a complete dumpster fire that should never have happened in the first place

  133. If we had Grant Rose would be benched immediately–but Jennings is no better effort wise

  134. Hornacek will be fired soon.

    Phil and Dolan will take the easiest path and make everyone happy.

    Except Knickerblogger of course.

  135. I think the post was supposed to be Rambis and Horny but either way he is childish for even putting it up in the 1st place. The fact that he actually has value means we should trade him before the deadline passes. We have hardworking, better defending and younger players in Ron and Holiday to take his place.

    If any contender needs a SG at the deadline he should be gone.

  136. If we had Grant starting we’d be the worst team in the league but that’s what some of you really want anyway.

  137. The Warriors are up by 19 and have shot 17 fewer FTA than the Cavs. That team is unreal.

  138. 29 now. 19 then.

    LeFlop is in full force. That was one hell of a call by the refs. Watched it for five minutes on the monitor and then called it a F1. Hilariously stupid.

  139. 2. He just isn’t good. He’s our best player. Mad?

    Actually. No.

    But according to your stupid stat melo is better because the Knicks are winless without Melo for like 2 years running.

    Fuck man, I can’t stand you under any name

  140. @221

    That one win in the 1-5 record is against the Bulls without Jimmy Butler. I don’t count it.

  141. But according to your stupid stat melo is better because the Knicks are winless without Melo for like 2 years running.

    Do you think that if the Knicks had $65M in cap space instead of Carmelo, Rose and Noah, they could put together as good/bad a team as the 18-24 capped-out trainwreck that’s currently defiling MSG?

  142. Do you think that if the Knicks had $65M in cap space instead of Carmelo, Rose and Noah, they could put together as good/bad a team as the 18-24 capped-out trainwreck that’s currently defiling MSG?

    Pwned.

  143. I have interesting question. Hornacek has talked about starting KP at the 5 and playing Melo at the 4. In the past he was against the prospect because he didn’t think he could play KP so many minutes in such a physical position without wearing him down but he had no problem playing KP 34 minutes a game at the 4.

    Maybe there should be a compromise where Hornacek plays KP at the 5 but for less minutes a game. You look at Nikola Jokic, an older and more physically developed big man, and he only plays 24 minutes a game as Nuggets starting center. Shouldn’t we only play him that amount of minutes right now in his career?

  144. @163, oh I know they’d be dead money against the cap. Better to eat what would have been like $9 million in salary for the pre-Zingis tank season when it behooved them to lose than get back the diminished return they did for their few positive assets.

    @223 What do you think Jax would do with 65 million dollars this summer? Like, in a best case realistic scenario he would get Millsap and Wade. The free agent class is brutal this offseason.

    Dolan can’t fire Phil fast enough

  145. Do you think that if the Knicks had $65M in cap space instead of Carmelo, Rose and Noah, they could put together as good/bad a team as the 18-24 capped-out trainwreck that’s currently defiling MSG?

    I’m serious though. Rose has been awful. Melo has been decidedly below-average. Noah’s been injured and a total liability on offense, far worse than Tyson Chandler ever was. (Remember all that talk about how much harder Chandler made it for Carmelo, since he had no ability to space the floor?)

    I’m continually amazed by the rhetoric that this team is the best use of cap space. I mean, we’re talking $75M given to the starting 5 outside of Porzingis, and put together, they can’t bring this team to .500. That’s pathetic. I just don’t understand how a person can defend that use of salary anymore.

    What do you think Jax would do with 65 million dollars this summer? Like, in a best case realistic scenario he would get Millsap and Wade. The free agent class is brutal this offseason.

    Those would be terrible signings, I’m sure. It seems that Jackson is unable to sign any player that wasn’t on a winning team between ’09 and ’11, not coincidentally his last few years as a coach.

  146. This is looking like his last year in Phoenix all over again where he loses a team through no fault of his own

    It is time for Phil to step up and drain the swamp

  147. Anyone following this Allan Grayson tripping saga? He might actually not get chosen in the first round of the draft at this rate. I would take a chance with him in the late first/early second though.

  148. He was projected to be one of the better players in last years draft class by a few draft models i saw, but then he didn’t declare eligibility. He’d be very good as a late 1st/early 2nd. There’s a lot of JJ Redick in him (insufferable but talented prick turns into seasoned pro.)

  149. Going into the Christmas Day game, the Knicks were 16-13 and a half game behind Boston. They are now 18-24 and 8 ½ games behind the 26-15 Celtics.

    Two teams going in slightly different directions.

  150. #230

    I feel like he’s the douchy type of player the Knicks are missing. Someone who will incessantly piss off and troll the opposition.

  151. Conley’s contract got a lot of heat, especially when he got hurt this year, but you would trade Lee and Noah for Conley in a heartbeat and start looking for shit to throw in.

  152. This team would be in so much better shape if they hadn’t made the Rose trade and the subsequent Noah signing. If they would’ve just made the Jennings and Lee signings along with the other minor signings which have turned out great so far (Hernangomez, Kuz, Baker) things would look so much better.

  153. Anunoby had 7 steals against Rutgers. He’s averaging 11.4 points, 5.6 rebounds, 1.4 steals, and 1.3 blocks per game, all career bests.

    Limited offensive potential but he could be a 1 bl/1 stl guy in the NBA who can defend all front court positions.

  154. @237

    Bridges is ascending right now. He has a huge March and he becomes a top 8 pick.

  155. Do you think that if the Knicks had $65M in cap space instead of Carmelo, Rose and Noah, they could put together as good/bad a team as the 18-24 capped-out trainwreck that’s currently defiling MSG?

    Yeah a 17 win team

  156. Yeah a 17 win team

    Even if that were the case, it’d be a 17 win team, Porzingis, Willy plus one of the stud PGs in this year’s draft and $60 million in cap room. That’s a great recipe for future success.

  157. Ha! I swear to you, I was initially going to add “But I know you’re not arguing against that.” :) I guess I should have. ;)

  158. We draft Ntilikina and Anunoby and we’ll have the core of an elite defensive squad in a few years time.

  159. Our beloved Tankerbockers are now just a scant 2 games out of the #8 slot, with lots more tankball to play.

  160. If anyone says that they’re confident that this Knick team won’t end the season close to .500, they’re fooling themselves. The Eastern Conference is just way too shitty. While they were sans Howard, this was still the ostensible #4 seed in the East that the Knicks played today and they just aren’t that good.

    Hopefully the Knicks continue to lose and Melo demands a trade, but I think it is just as likely that Porzingis returns, we get more Melo at the 4 and the team plays just well enough to get, like, the #14 pick.

  161. Westbrook can be traded as of Feb 3rd should OKC want to. I am thinking there is a trade to be made between them and Boston, the Clips and Knicks that benefits all teams.

    OKC moves Westbrook to Boston for I Thomas and next year’s Nyet’s #1 and Jaylen Brown

    Oft injured Blake Griffin moves to Boston.

    Clips receive Carmelo and O’Quinn

    Knicks receive Nyet’s #1 this year and Amir Johnson’s salary .

    Flotsam and jetsam to make the numbers work.

    Boston runs out Griffin , Westbrook, Horford and Boston’s mix of Smart, Crowder etc making them much improved in the short and intermediate term and still having picks moving forward.

    Clips trade Oft injured Griffin for Melo and O’Quinn making them better in the short term and Paul happy.

    OKC solves their Westbrook dilemma getting I Thomas as a replacement plus a high lotto pick next year to hopefully replace the gaping hole Durant left plus maybe Jalen Brown develops.

    Knicks get rid of Carmelo’s attitude and salary and grab a top 3 pick in this year’s draft to do a proper rebuild.

  162. It’s an impressive balancing act you’ve done with the four teams, but I just don’t think OKC thinks that they have a Westbrook dilemma, since he signed that extension with them.

  163. I like my 4 team trade with NY, LAC, BOS, and CHI better. We end up with the Sacramento and Brooklyn picks this year in that deal.

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