2012 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Bobcats

For your in-game what-have-yous.

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Jim Cavan

Beyond his KnickerBlogger roots, Jim's work has appeared at ESPN.com, Grantland, The Classical, and the New York Times. He is currently working on a biography of Robert Silverman, entitled "Clownin' and Astoundin.'" Follow him on Twitter @JPCavan.

290 thoughts to “2012 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Bobcats”

  1. Is MSG lagging for anyone else? Luckily I went with RCN and don’t have to deal with Time Warner’s crap, but it’s choppy and almost unwatchable.

  2. Tonight’s one of the rare nights that I’m at home and have the chance to catch the game. I’m in NYC, so with the MSG TW dispute, I’m screwed, right?

  3. so, this game is supposed to be on NBATV tonight, the pregame was on … and now, blackness. Is it really possible that this is blacked out just because it’s knicks programming on time warner?

  4. Z:
    Mulligan, you were out shumped.

    Haha! If 3g reception wasn’t so crappy on the manhattan bridge I woulda shump’d it for sure

  5. I love seeing our superstars doing the dirty work. Shows me that they’re starting to “get it”

  6. Once the starting backcourt becomes SHump and B-Diddile this team is going to make some noise.

  7. lol glad someone else showed up here. I thought I would have the game thread all to myself. Sometimes I post a lot, sometimes hardly any. Feast or famine. Kinda like TD!

  8. Diaw tried the same spin move he burned Amare with last game and Amare stayed right with him this time. I like it.

  9. Love the new play Knicks have added with Melo picking Shump’s man allowing him to go up for the alley oop.

  10. Does Shump Shump’s midrange game remind anyone else of Allan Houston? Have we had anyone who can do the midrange thing SINCE Allan? (Hughes doesn’t count cause he shot like 14%)

  11. rohank:
    Does Shump Shump’s midrange game remind anyone else of Allan Houston? Have we had anyone who can do the midrange thing SINCE Allan? (Hughes doesn’t count cause he shot like 14%)

    No

  12. rohank:
    Does Shump Shump’s midrange game remind anyone else of Allan Houston? Have we had anyone who can do the midrange thing SINCE Allan? (Hughes doesn’t count cause he shot like 14%)

    If anybody on the current Knicks has a mid-range game like Allan Houston its Melo.

  13. GREAT pass by Melo on the PnR. Seriously, those ppl who say that Melo would average 3+ MORE assists per game if ppl finished their shots are 100% right

  14. rohank: Does Shump Shump’s midrange game remind anyone else of Allan Houston? Have we had anyone who can do the midrange thing SINCE Allan? (Hughes doesn’t count cause he shot like 14%)

    you mean mid-range pull=up?

  15. It’s like half the possessions we care about defense, and half we don’t. Kind of like offense, too. We do poorly when we don’t move. When we don’t switch on D (or fight through screens when appropriate), they get an open man within 10 seconds. On the other end, when we have 4 people standing doing nothing watching Melo back his man down, we rely on his contested jumper (which granted is one of the best in the league, but still).

    If I’m D’Antoni, I would just continually scream “MOVE!” on the sideline. Our issue is hustling. When we do, we’re outstanding.

    Also, Amare just can’t defend period. I don’t think it’s an issue of hustle; I just don’t think he ever learned how to do it properly.

  16. Holy crap. Sweet move by Melo.

    It looks like Toney is at least bringing some intensity on D this game. That’s the best way for him to get court time.

  17. Wow that looked like a terrible call to end the 1st Q. We’ll have to get Abbey’s live take on it later

  18. Shump, either dishing or receiving, seems to have returned the alley oop back to the garden.

  19. Looks like the bobs are reverting to shooting form.

    But Stat needs to quit complaining and keep playing

  20. Stat has become the beast in the paint again.
    I think we should hold off on the trade folks were planning

  21. See, that was a VERY good shot from Douglas, even though he missed. Quick pullup jumpers are not a bad thing IF you have people in decent position to get an offensive board.

  22. Also Frank one game does not a bad trade make. I would give my firstborn for DH12 even if it meant giving up STAT. He’s the only franchise center in. the. league.

  23. Our defense is way, way better. Rotations are timely and quick. Most shots contested.

    Stat is going to foul out their front line 2nite

  24. Matt Smith:
    Also Frank one game does not a bad trade make. I would give my firstborn for DH12 even if it meant giving up STAT. He’s the only franchise center in. the. league.

    I agree u have to make that trade. But unless you are certain you can do it, you say nothing. It would destroy the team if those talks were real and then didn’t happen.

  25. Everyone looks great today! STAT is a monster and they are really communication. Bobcats are playing WAY over their heads, look for those hero shots to stop falling pretty soon. I’m feeling very, very good right now. Go Knicks!

  26. Harrellson is really hustling. I like his ‘tude. But I can’t imagine him performing like this against much better teams.

  27. Open question to my savvy Knickerblogger brethren: Is Jorts a better defender than Jared Jeffries? And if so, is there any reason to play the latter ever again?

  28. Landry’s is doing fairly well on his drives. But it looks like his main problem has been hesitation – every time he catches a ball open for 3 he’s hesitated to shoot it.

    Also, I’ve seen us run that play where it’s an off-ball screen on the baseline to have him pop open by the paint- it hasn’t worked yet though.

  29. I think Jeffries moves a bit better, but I could see Jorts completely supplanting him. Maybe have Jeffries in case of foul trouble or if Jorts starts to come bact to earth. What do you think?

  30. Still too many open 15-footers for the Bobcats. Gotta do a better job closing out on those medium range jumpers.

  31. I think Melo is pissed from lack of calls, and he’s trying to prove it by shooting more (and failing)

  32. rohank:
    Melo better wake up in the 2nd. We should be up by like 15

    In his defense, I think he’s a little dinged up.

    Boy, Shumpert gives Ewing a real run for his money as the sweatiest Knick in franchise history. Did you see his chin? Like an open faucet!

  33. The Knicks need to set more screens, especially for Melo. A lot of times Melo gets the ball on the wing and I scream at the TV, “Somebody set a screen!” Of course they all just clear out the whole side of the floor so he can iso. He’s a really good ballhandler in the PnR and they gotta take advantage of that more often.

  34. Jake S.: In his defense, I think he’s a little dinged up.

    Boy, Shumpert gives Ewing a real run for his money as the sweatiest Knick in franchise history. Did you see his chin? Like an open faucet!

    no one sweats like the big fella

  35. just got out of work. looks like shump is having another prodigious game…and amare has 8 boards (6 offensive) at the half he has really been getting after it

  36. Mike Woodson looks like a character from the board game Guess Who. I find his naked scalp unsettling.

  37. D3 was right about one thing in his analysis: Amare needs to stay focused, stop bitching at the refs and play his game. He got out of his game there for a bit.
    Melo is really not having a great game

  38. I know he missed it, but that was a good miss by Fields. He looks like he’s emerging from his funk.

  39. Amare 19 and 11 and looking better than he did early last season when he was getting 30 every night

  40. Fun team. Fun, fun team.
    The Knicks have become a flying team.
    When was the last time we had a team like that?

  41. Frank O.:
    Fun team. Fun, fun team.
    The Knicks have become a flying team.
    When was the last time we had a team like that?

    Have you forgotten the high-flying days of Charles Oakley, Anthony Mason and Derek Harper?

  42. Active hands by Shump Shump.

    Mike Breen said “title” and “Knicks” in the same sentence

  43. I forgot to mention this nugget earlier b/c of the alley-oop-fest, but LOL @ Clyde: “If Bill Bradley had become president I would have taken my position – SECRETARY OF DEFENSE”. Haha

  44. SHUMP is 6’5 220 and harassing the hell out of small quick points.
    Not many guys that big playing point so well.
    Very strong young man

  45. Never seen Melo miss so many layups. Granted he usually gets foul calls which he aint getting tonight.

  46. Augustine and Walker having a tough time of it. without Diaw showing off to his old coach, this wouldn’t be a game

  47. For the umpteenth time, can someone please tell Toney Douglas to stop pressing lightening quick guards?

  48. Shump and Davis could be a devastating combo. Oh dear Lord, please let them be a devastating combo!

  49. Melo needs to take a seat. He’s not letting the game come to him today. He’s forcing almost everything.

  50. Jake S.:
    For the umpteenth time, can someone please tell Toney Douglas to stop pressing lightening quick guards?

    What I said…

  51. melo looks slow, maybe the back is hurting. I complimented TD earlier, now he makes a bone headed foul, then an ugly shot at the end of the quarter. Yeesh!

  52. Melo is jacking shot after shot…. and seems to forget that he have other 4 players on his side…..

  53. Melo 4-12, six assists and six TOs.
    If he just didn’t try to do too much, he’d be fine

  54. Frank O.:
    Melo needs to take a seat. He’s not letting the game come to him today. He’s forcing almost everything.

    Agreed, playing pretty bad tonight. Shooting bad plus 6 to’s to boot, but he does have 6 assists at least.

  55. Melo having an off night and we’re up by 7. We may still need him at the end if it stays close though.

  56. Don’t hate me for asking this, but is there any team out there that’ll deal a 1st round pick for fields? Sure, he had a good year last year till Melo showed up, but since then…

  57. Fields is 2-6, but he has 5 boards and 4 assists a steal and no turnovers.
    For the 5th scoring option out there, he’s doing just fine.
    I mean come on. He’s making a lot of hustle plays

  58. Jorts has 6 boards and 2 steals, and has taken only one shot.
    Again, he’s making a lot of hustle plays and is aggressive on D. Chandler, Melo, Amare and SHUMP are scoring well.

  59. mura2337:
    Don’t hate me for asking this, but is there any team out there that’ll deal a 1st round pick for fields? Sure, he had a good year last year till Melo showed up, but since then…

    maybe we could package him and TD for a washing machine…just kidding but he does need to figure out that new shot thing. i have no hope left for toney though unfortunately. maybe he’ll prove me wrong

  60. Breaking a long silence to ask

    Does anyone see any value that Walker adds on the court? I just shake my head every time he’s in there. Can Jeffries take his minutes?

    Wow, nice find by Fields

  61. And for those who say D’Antoni doesn’t adapt…Knicks hve taken only 9 threes.
    They are 1-9. Glad they are pounding the paint with this size advantage

  62. rohank:
    Nice vision by fields. Then commits the silly foul

    I thought that was more acting on the Bobs side. Fields really didn’t do much there

  63. Frank O.: I thought that was more acting on the Bobs side. Fields really didn’t do much there

    True, plus he got elbowed in the nose

  64. Agreed dmar. I tend to think Hollinger is right when he says point differential is the best predictor of future success. This is the BOBCATS we’re talking about. If we win by less than 10, I’d consider that a bad game.

    Actually, I already consider this a bad game, because Boris Diaw has over 15 points. And we’re one of the more inconsistent teams (both game to game and within the same game) I’ve seen in a while.

    Teams can evolve throughout the season, but you don’t get deep in the playoffs if you can’t crush a scrub team at any point in the season. At least, that’s what NBA history has shown me… except the ’99 Knicks of course.

  65. What comes next? As constructed, are we running shump and Davis in the backcourt going forward? Davis and fields? I mean, we ain’t seeing the finished nyknicks…so…what next? Fields (bad shot Melo) deal is up after this year…do we resign him?

  66. Frank O.: I guess what I’m saying is is that their offense appears to feed off their D

    It was a totally fair observation, I was just busting your chops. This team is totally schizophrenic…as it’s been for the last two years.

  67. if he improves we resign him but he is still stuck in the wall. also depends on how good davis is when he comes back. i really hope we get warriors baron davis…

    this game needs to STOP being close, can’t believe they just tied it

  68. mura2337:
    What comes next? As constructed, are we running shump and Davis in the backcourt going forward? Davis and fields? I mean, we ain’t seeing the finished nyknicks…so…what next? Fields (bad shot Melo) deal is up after this year…do we resign him?

    Better question is: When Baron comes back, do we move Shump back to the bench? I think Fields will be awful off the bench, b/c what he does is more complementary to the starters. What about bringing Baron off the bench????????

  69. villainx:
    Is Melo really forcing it, or just being aggressive but shots ain’t falling?

    Some of his shots are pretty ridiculous.
    He can’t play normal bully ball because of his back so he can’t be as strong to the hoop and so he takes the finger rolls and off balance stuff that just isn’t his game

  70. they forgot how to play, there is no ball movement. melo and stoudmire shooting awful shots….

  71. villainx:
    Is Melo really forcing it, or just being aggressive but shots ain’t falling?

    forcing it, also failing to draw fouls and having to adjust last second

  72. I think it would be a huge stride forward if they can pull this one out. They need to learn how to grind out games.

  73. Chandler 20 and 11, and how many tips to other players does he have tonight? He doesn’t get credit for those

  74. Shit, TD, the human time bomb, is going to finish out the game because SHUMP is feeling his leg…shit

  75. GREAT defensive plays by Fields and Chandler there.

    Especially Chandler, heady save there.

  76. @188 I was just about to post that. Encouraging, really – don’t think they’ll shoot a combined 30 percent very often.

    Of course the Bobcats are awful.

  77. it might not happen again. Not when they’re both off to this degree.

    Chandler and Shumpert have been superb, everyone else has done enough defensivbely

  78. Amare started out so well, but he got out of sync letting the refs get in his head. Melo’s just hurt

  79. yea shump will be fine i just worry about his longevity considering he has never played more than 35 or so games in a season and this is a compressed season. dude needs to eat a banana

  80. Boy, Walker must being doing something stupid. The guy gets chewed out more than any one else.

  81. or the Knicks sucks as much as the Bobcats or the Bobcats magically turns good agains’t us??

  82. Fields brings other stuff to the table and his shot can be fixed. TD will get his shot back and be valuable off the bench. But who comes in at SF when Melo goes out is a big question for me. D’Antoni hates Balkman, so he’s out. I just cringe every time Melo leaves, because whoever replaces him tends to be practically a D-League quality player. At least it’s only ten minutes or so.

  83. micdan: or the Knicks sucks as much as the Bobcats or the Bobcats magically turns good agains’t us??

    Some teams have confidence against others. This is not new. This is a great win for NY given what you saw out of its defense and Chandler and Shumpert.

    Charlotte shot really well again tonight.

  84. Frank O.:
    Amazing that Augustine was so open. How did fields get sucked into that?

    Because he’s still recovering from the sex change operation he had sometime in January of 2011.

  85. Whatever, a win is a win. Big game on Wed vs Philly, 1st real statement game of the season although it will be Philly’s 3rd game in a row.

  86. way too close. but a win’s a win. I’ll take it. Peace out guys – I gotta be up at 4:55 AM

  87. yeah I know but it seems like all the teams have the confidence against us. Still I am liking the defense of the Knick but not melo and stoudmire jacking horrible shot. they have to move the ball more and be more of a facilitator

    ruruland: Some teams have confidence against others. This is not new. This is a great win for NY given what you saw out of its defense and Chandler and Shumpert.

    Charlotte shot really well again tonight.

    or the Knicks sucks as much as the Bobcats or the Bobcats magically turns good agains’t us??

  88. Ugly win, with Melo and Stat both being off. But defense won this game, Chandler was great and in a way those are more positive signs than if our 2 stars had big nights.

  89. Preseason or not. It’s the coache’s fault for not having plays (for the other guys) drawn up when melo is resting. Bobcats were looking to win while the Knicks were looking to b given a win.

  90. SHUMP was funny in his interview.
    If Carmelo wants the ball in isolation, Carmelo gets the ball in isolation.
    Man, you don’t wave off Carmelo…
    Funny stuff

  91. It is too bad that we did not have a summer league and a full pre-season. We could have had all summer to get to like Iman Shumpert. And think about how well he might be playing with that time to get up to speed. Nice close to Donnie tenure with that pick.

    In Donnie we trust.

  92. Doesn’t matter to me that Melo is obviously hurting. It’s the dumb, dumb basketball by our two “stars” that drives me crazy. I’d love to see a quick video of every touch these two had in the second half. Gee, do you think Amar’e is going to the hole? Gosh, is Anthony going to shoot no matter how many Bobcats converge on him? Actually, I’m not sure if it’s dumb or it’s lazy, but they are lucky that the Bobcats missed so many open shots.

    I’m usually pretty optimistic and I did see many good things from Chandler, Shump, and, in my opinion, Fields. But brainless basketball will be the death of this team.

  93. Reading Twitter you would think the Knicks are 2-7 or worse right now. I mean the fact that they have looked bad most of this season and granted have played a fairly easy schedule but still they are 5-4 and deserve to be given their point differential.

    That to me should actually be encouraging because in the past Knicks teams playing horrible would have a horrible record, at least this team is 5-4. Dont get me wrong Im not exactly thrilled with the record but shit it could be alot worse lol

  94. On way home from game. Good win considering how poorly they shot. Thought they took alot of good shots but they just weren’t fallIng tonight. Also thought knicks weren’t getting foul calls. Good to see them pull out the win though.

  95. Kikuchiyo:
    Doesn’t matter to me that Melo is obviously hurting. It’s the dumb, dumb basketball by our two “stars” that drives me crazy. I’d love to see a quick video of every touch these two had in the second half. Gee, do you think Amar’e is going to the hole? Gosh, is Anthony going to shoot no matter how many Bobcats converge on him? Actually, I’m not sure if it’s dumb or it’s lazy, but they are lucky that the Bobcats missed so many open shots.

    I’m usually pretty optimistic and I did see many good things from Chandler, Shump, and, in my opinion, Fields. But brainless basketball will be the death of this team.

    Agreed Melo and Amare took some dumb shots, but if Melo is facing up against his man from 15 ft. and rises and fires uncontested, that is not a dumb shot. It’s a high % shot for him, was just not falling tonight.

  96. One thing about Amare and Melo: they get the other guys into foul trouble. There’s value in that

  97. After game was tied with a bit under 3 mins left to go Melo went 2 for 4 (3 layups attempts and a jumper) plus drew the foul on Diaw in the fastbreak but made only 1 of 2 from FT line.

    He had a pretty awful game but down the stretch he did step up plus I thought his defense tonight was excellent, although the entire team’s defense (minus Amare on Diaw) was excellent.

    Bench though, UGH. 3 points. Walker continues to miss WIDE OPEN 3pters. Jorts played excellent defense and TD looked better to me at least.

    Like I said earlier just take this win and on to the next one…

  98. Dmar, that’s not the definition of uncontested. If your man is right in front of you, that’s contested. Heavily? Maybe not, and I agree that Melo is superhuman at making that shot, but I think any offense that relies on that will inevitably fail. Especially since the rest of the team seems content to stand around while he’s in iso.

  99. Matt Smith:
    Dmar, that’s not the definition of uncontested. If your man is right in front of you, that’s contested. Heavily? Maybe not, and I agree that Melo is superhuman at making that shot, but I think any offense that relies on that will inevitably fail. Especially since the rest of the team seems content to stand around while he’s in iso.

    C’mon I’m not saying that should be our offense every time down the court, just that when he squares up and faces the basket (yes, with a man in front of him), he and Kobe may be the best in the league at the midrange jumper. How is that a bad shot?

  100. That was about as ugly a win as you can get. Melo and Amar’e going one on one on a continuous loop. Someone is going to have to step up and hit some jumpers- Fields, Walker, Douglas, all not just missing but too hesitant to shoot when open- feeding Melo’s shooting mania. Great game for Chandler, solid game for Shumpert, everyone else needs to go back to the drawing board. Team defense was pretty good for the most part- still too much switching on the perimeter (Shump often the culprit) but effort on rotations was as good as it’s been this year.

  101. In fairness to Melo tonight how many jumpers did he actually take?? Mentioned it during the game he was missing a boatload of layups from what Ive noticed but admittedly havent seen a shot chart.

    BTW the great Nuggets are losing at home in the 3rd quarter to the Hornets by 13 right now. Shit happens.

  102. d-mar: C’mon I’m not saying that should be our offense every time down the court, just that when he squares up and faces the basket (yes, with a man in front of him), he and Kobe may be the best in the league at the midrange jumper. How is that a bad shot?

    Because he misses 6 out of 10 from that range?

    Because he often shoots it while there is still time to find a higher percentage shot?

    Because it can interrupt the flow of the teams offense?

  103. Matt Smith: Dmar, that’s not the definition of uncontested. If your man is right in front of you, that’s contested. Heavily? Maybe not, and I agree that Melo is superhuman at making that shot, but I think any offense that relies on that will inevitably fail. Especially since the rest of the team seems content to stand around while he’s in iso.

    That’s really what you got out of tonight. The only tunnel vision regarding the Knicks is discussion of Melo’s “bad shots.”

    Melo blew 4-5 layups tonight he normally makes when healthy. he took 2 or 3 shots he probably shouldn’t have, but those are shots you live with because they will bail the Knicks out.

    Who else is spreading the floor for the Knicks right now? Who else can be relied upon to make plays when the ball isn’t in Melo or amare’s hands? Shump took quite a few shots without passing as well….he’s the pg.

    The story 2night was the defense winning a game in which amare and Melo were close to their worst offensively.

    BTW, Melo led the Knicks in assists once again and had some beautiful passes— all of them coming at the basket/ Imagine if others could make jumpers of his looks?

  104. THCJ and others of his ilk, kindly add to my previous posts, “or I could be wrong.” I do think Melo is hurt though (as he equivocates).

    In other news, is Balkman injured or is this whole thing really a cruel experiment within the LHC? He and most of the bench, along with the coach, disappear with no logical explanation. The good news is that they could reappear at any time in any place. Great win.

  105. nicos: That was about as ugly a win as you can get. Melo and Amar’e going one on one on a continuous loop. Someone is going to have to step up and hit some jumpers- Fields, Walker, Douglas, all not just missing but too hesitant to shoot when open- feeding Melo’s shooting mania. Great game for Chandler, solid game for Shumpert, everyone else needs to go back to the drawing board. Team defense was pretty good for the most part- still too much switching on the perimeter (Shump often the culprit) but effort on rotations was as good as it’s been this year.

    melo had 18 shots and 6 assists (would have had quite a few more if guys make open jumpers)

    Amare had 25 shots and 1 assist.

  106. Melo had a pretty awful game tonight but I dont think shot selection was the problem. In the 4th quarter when he was being covered by DJ White every time he went ISO against him I was saying please drive right by him dont settle for a jumper and he literally drove right by him every time but he couldnt finish at all tonight. That doesnt bother me. Plus he didnt relax and eat shit on defense which was nice to see.

    But for as much as I like Melo and defend him alot I cant say he had a good game tonight at all but I dont think he had a bad game because he was being his usual ball-hogging, stupid shot selection self.

  107. The Knicks were 0-9 from 3 outside of Melo, and they weren’t shooting much better from mid-range.

    You aren’t going to get dunks and layups everytime down the floor, espeically when you have one playmaker.

  108. People need to stop with the “he would have more assists if teammates made more shots” caveat, it’s something that applies to every NBA player who touches a basketball in every game ever played. It means absolutely nothing.

  109. ruruland: you like Melo?

    Havent you been reading this blog for awhile, I love Melo. Shouldve put the end to that sentence in quotes because I was referring to the same criticism he gets from some in this blog regardless of what is actually happening in the game.

    My fault.

  110. xduckshoex: People need to stop with the “he would have more assists if teammates made more shots” caveat, it’s something that applies to every NBA player who touches a basketball in every game ever played. It means absolutely nothing.

    The Knicks have been very poor shoting the basketball this year on on the whole. A better percentage would mean more assists, which would make it extremely difficult for the Melo haters to say he’s not passing, or that it’s somehow the reason the Knicks struggle on offense.

  111. So, would anyone trade my man Shump for either Kemba or Bismack? HELL NO!! Donnie brought home the GOODS in this draft!

  112. xduckshoex: People need to stop with the “he would have more assists if teammates made more shots” caveat, it’s something that applies to every NBA player who touches a basketball in every game ever played. It means absolutely nothing.

    Outside of Melo, the Knicks are shooting about 30 percent from 3.

    Outside of Chandler and Melo the Knicks are close to if not under 40 percent from the field. That, of course, is Melo’s fault. Gotta love circular arguments.

  113. I just looked at the ESPN box score and it looks like out of Melo’s 18 FGA 10 were in the paint (9 from 3ft and closer) and 8 outside of the paint. He was 1 for 2 from 3pt range. 2 for 6 from the other shots outside of the paint and 3 for 10 from shots inside the paint.

    Seems about right from what I remember watching.

  114. BigBlueAL: Havent you been reading this blog for awhile, I love Melo. Shouldve put the end to that sentence in quotes because I was referring to the same criticism he gets from some in this blog regardless of what is actually happening in the game.My fault.

    my bad

  115. ruruland: The Knicks have been very poor shoting the basketball this year on on the whole. A better percentage would mean more assists, which would make it extremely difficult for the Melo haters to say he’s not passing, or that it’s somehow the reason the Knicks struggle on offense.

    Right, I understand what you are trying to say. It still doesn’t change the fact that what you are trying to say still applies to every single player in every single game of basketball.

    If teammates had hit more shots off of passes from Toney Douglas would he have more assists? Yup.

    If Charlotte doesn’t shoot 42% tonight maybe Diaw gets a triple double. So?

    It doesn’t mean anything. You’re basically trying to manufacture assists out of thin air to make Melo look like a better passer than he is and it doesn’t work that way.

    What you are doing also absolves the passer of blame. I remember hearing about a conversation between Doc Rivers and Magic Johnson. Doc was frustrated that Dominique was turning the ball over so much and decided to ask Magic how James Worthy managed to keep his turnovers so low. Magic looked at Doc and said “if I got James the ball where you give it to Dominique he’d turn the ball over too”. The same kind of thing applies to shooters.

  116. xduckshoex: Right, I understand what you are trying to say.It still doesn’t change the fact that what you are trying to say still applies to every single player in every single game of basketball.

    If teammates had hit more shots off of passes from Toney Douglas would he have more assists?Yup.

    If Charlotte doesn’t shoot 42% tonight maybe Diaw gets a triple double. So?

    It doesn’t mean anything.You’re basically trying to manufacture assists out of thin air to make Melo look like a better passer than he is and it doesn’t work that way.

    What you are doing also absolves the passer of blame.I remember hearing about a conversation between Doc Rivers and Magic Johnson.Doc was frustrated that Dominique was turning the ball over so much and decided to ask Magic how James Worthy managed to keep his turnovers so low.Magic looked at Doc and said “if I got James the ball where you give it to Dominique he’d turn the ball over too”.The same kind of thing applies to shooters.

    Its ten times harder for shooters cause they have make the shot as oppose to a layup or dunk.

  117. ruruland: melo had 18 shots and 6 assists (would have had quite a few more if guys make open jumpers)

    Amare had 25 shots and 1 assist.

    And Melo had 6 turnovers, Amar’e 1 so they used about the same number of possessions. I’m generally with you when it comes to Melo- the Knicks perimeter guys have been the problem IMO, not Melo. And I’d also say I rarely object to Melo taking it to the basket but tonight it was clear he didn’t have his usual lift.

  118. xduckshoex: (Quote

    Right, but conversely, saying it’s Melo’s fault his teammates are missing shots also absolves them for missing shots. By logical extension, you’ve now gotten to the point where you’re saying it’s Melo’s fault his teammates aren’t shooting the ball well..maybe Melo cooks them bad pre-game meals, too.

    This is where a good set of eyes comes into play. The Knicks have been getting good looks on the perimeter off of Melo passes. it’s also been the case that Melo’s teammates, perhaps because they shot so poorly on good looks, have turned down open shots…..or, are you going to come back and tell me Melo’s been bailed out with his assists at the basket, because you’re implying his passes aren’t good, either.

    I find it interesting that you haven’t mentioned Amare’s 25 shot, zer o assist performance. Or the fact that he was the one guy who struggled tonight defensively– getting torched by Diaw once again.

  119. Melo is a very good passer when they are running a set play and he is looking to pass (like the lobs to Chandler and Amar’e/Fields cutting off a pick). If he is facing the basket and clearly sees the double team alot of times he finds the open guy on the perimeter.

    Very rarely though does he put the ball on the floor and find an open man (although he has done it this season more than I saw him do all of last season). He doesnt have the natural instincts of passing like a natural PG or LeBron. But he has never been put in a role of doing so and I think this season you have to give him some credit for definitely trying to pass and setup his teammates more. Its not easy for a player like him to change his natural instincts but he is trying I think.

  120. The fact that the Knicks went to the line so many times just shows how good the Knicks played.

  121. nicos: And Melo had 6 turnovers, Amar’e 1 so they used about the same number of possessions. I’m generally with you when it comes to Melo- the Knicks perimeter guys have been the problem IMO, not Melo. And I’d also say I rarely object to Melo taking it to the basket but tonight it was clear he didn’t have his usual lift.

    I have seen games where Melo didn’t have his lift or legs and get 15-20 fta. Even without his normal lift he makes or gets fouled on a lot of those drives.

    I’m not sure what you wanted Melo to do tonight. He was finding Chandler on p/r, he was trying to get others involved outside…What success were the Knicks having on offense when the ball was in others hands? A few drives by Amare. A few transition plays by Shumpert?

  122. xduckshoex: So….who said that it was Melo’s fault that guys were missing jumpers?

    it was clearly the implication in your post. Don’t run from your own argument now.

  123. back from the game, pretty fun. one amusing story is that when Shumpert stole the ball and went it for a tomahawk, I was of course yelling “SHUMP SHUMP SHUMP’ repeatedly, to the point where a kid a few rows in front of me turned around, looked at me, then told his mom that I was saying bad words. :)

    the other awesome thing was that about six people started chanting “MVP!” when Shumpert went to the foul line late.

    i have never bought a jersey of any athlete, but I am seriously considering my first. I think I’ll hold out for Mike’s shirt, though.

  124. @273, it seems that you take even the slightest criticism of Melo with a lot of offense. It doesn’t mean that people are calling him a bad player when we criticize such small aspects of his game as not having “his usual lift.” Even the best players don’t have the greatest games all the time. Melo doesn’t always have to be perfect to be a good player, and he doesn’t have to be perfect for us to enjoy having him on our team.

  125. BigBlueAL:
    Melo is a very good passer when they are running a set play and he is looking to pass (like the lobs to Chandler and Amar’e/Fields cutting off a pick).If he is facing the basket and clearly sees the double team alot of times he finds the open guy on the perimeter.

    Very rarely though does he put the ball on the floor and find an open man (although he has done it this season more than I saw him do all of last season).He doesnt have the natural instincts of passing like a natural PG or LeBron.But he has never been put in a role of doing so and I think this season you have to give him some credit for definitely trying to pass and setup his teammates more.Its not easy for a player like him to change his natural instincts but he is trying I think.

    I agree, Melo is a good passer when he tries to be and I think that outside of those three 24+ shot games the effort has been there.

    And I don’t even really have a problem with him taking a lot of shots; if you have a good shot, take it.

    But take that shot in the offense. Work for a good shot. That contested 20 footer is there with 2 left on the clock as well, if you don’t have a good shot off your initial move then move the ball, put yourself in position to receive another pass and get ready to attack again.

    If he starts to do that consistently not only will the Knicks be a great offensive team but I don’t think anyone will be able to find anything negative to say about his offensive game.

    It also bears repeating that Melo would get a lot less criticism here if people didn’t seem so intent on making him completely blameless.

  126. BigBlueAL: Melo is a very good passer when they are running a set play and he is looking to pass (like the lobs to Chandler and Amar’e/Fields cutting off a pick). If he is facing the basket and clearly sees the double team alot of times he finds the open guy on the perimeter. Very rarely though does he put the ball on the floor and find an open man (although he has done it this season more than I saw him do all of last season). He doesnt have the natural instincts of passing like a natural PG or LeBron. But he has never been put in a role of doing so and I think this season you have to give him some credit for definitely trying to pass and setup his teammates more. Its not easy for a player like him to change his natural instincts but he is trying I think.

    Lebron is a freak who also has ability to probe a defense and maintain his dribble on multiple penetrations within a possession.

    That’s what some good point guards can do that Melo can’t.

    melo is a not a pg, but as you mentioned, he’s a darn good passer from the wing who can facilitate much of your offense– so long as others can make open shots and take advantage of rotating defenses on the weakside.

    Melo has been great in the p/r this year.

  127. ruruland: it was clearly the implication in your post. Don’t run from your own argument now.

    No implications, either something was said or it wasn’t. I know I didn’t imply that.

  128. xduckshoex:
    So….who said that it was Melo’s fault that guys were missing jumpers?

    Was Dominique more of a shooter than worthy when getting a pass?

  129. xduckshoex: I agree, Melo is a good passer when he tries to be and I think that outside of those three 24+ shot games the effort has been there.

    And I don’t even really have a problem with him taking a lot of shots; if you have a good shot, take it.

    But take that shot in the offense.Work for a good shot.That contested 20 footer is there with 2 left on the clock as well, if you don’t have a good shot off your initial move then move the ball, put yourself in position to receive another pass and get ready to attack again.

    If he starts to do that consistently not only will the Knicks be a great offensive team but I don’t think anyone will be able to find anything negative to say about his offensive game.

    It also bears repeating that Melo would get a lot less criticism here if people didn’t seem so intent on making him completely blameless.

    You know Im a Melo fan and defend him alot but of course he has his flaws and I am well aware of them. He almost cost them the game in Washington for going 0 for 7 in that stretch with some horrible shots before hitting the game winner and I thought he was pretty bad tonight though not necessarily for the usual reasons he is bad lol.

    I must say there are alot more fans here this season supporting and praising Melo than last season after the trade. Although alot of that (such as in the case of THCJ) has been because he has played great this season so far statistically.

  130. xduckshoex: I agree, Melo is a good passer when he tries to be and I think that outside of those three 24+ shot games the effort has been there. And I don’t even really have a problem with him taking a lot of shots; if you have a good shot, take it.But take that shot in the offense. Work for a good shot. That contested 20 footer is there with 2 left on the clock as well, if you don’t have a good shot off your initial move then move the ball, put yourself in position to receive another pass and get ready to attack again.If he starts to do that consistently not only will the Knicks be a great offensive team but I don’t think anyone will be able to find anything negative to say about his offensive game.It also bears repeating that Melo would get a lot less criticism here if people didn’t seem so intent on making him completely blameless.

    Oh c;mon. I’ll be the first here to offer thought-out criticism so long as it doesn’t seem like he’s been made the parriah.

    This is SSOL, there are green lights, and Melo doesn’t stop at many green lights.

    i’d love to see the Knciks move the ball every possession and get great looks from every1. you saw that much of the

  131. xduckshoex: I agree, Melo is a good passer when he tries to be and I think that outside of those three 24+ shot games the effort has been there.

    And I don’t even really have a problem with him taking a lot of shots; if you have a good shot, take it.

    But take that shot in the offense.Work for a good shot.That contested 20 footer is there with 2 left on the clock as well, if you don’t have a good shot off your initial move then move the ball, put yourself in position to receive another pass and get ready to attack again.

    If he starts to do that consistently not only will the Knicks be a great offensive team but I don’t think anyone will be able to find anything negative to say about his offensive game.

    It also bears repeating that Melo would get a lot less criticism here if people didn’t seem so intent on making him completely blameless.

    Allen Houston is not playing and melo plays with more effort on d.

  132. BTW, Alan Hahn tweeted in case people missed the post-game or have no access to it like me that Bibby didnt play in 2nd half because he tweaked his ankle according to D’Antoni.

    Also the mighty Nuggets lost at home to the Hornets by 13. Nuggets now 6-4, a whopping 1/2 game better than the Knicks (I know they have played much, much better than the Knicks so far so dont bite my head off but interesting to see their records so far).

  133. jon abbey:
    the other awesome thing was that about six people started chanting “MVP!” when Shumpert went to the foul line late.

    We heard them on TV!

  134. ruruland: Oh c;mon. I’ll be the first here to offer thought-out criticism so long as it doesn’t seem like he’s been made the parriah.

    This is SSOL, there are green lights, and Melo doesn’t stop at many green lights.

    i’d love to see the Knciks move the ball every possession and get great looks from every1. you saw that much of the

    As much as I will love to c it and miss the ssol. I don’t honk it’s instituted this year as much. After all dantoni has a defensive coach sitting next to him that is there perhaps to take over his job. So ssol is soothing to rude for. Hey, if anyone goes to the game, please start chanting ssol, ssol, ssol. Maybe they’ll get he point then.

  135. BigBlueAL: You know Im a Melo fan and defend him alot but of course he has his flaws and I am well aware of them.He almost cost them the game in Washington for going 0 for 7 in that stretch with some horrible shots before hitting the game winner and I thought he was pretty bad tonight though not necessarily for the usual reasons he is bad lol.

    I must say there are alot more fans here this season supporting and praising Melo than last season after the trade.Although alot of that (such as in the case of THCJ) has been because he has played great this season so far statistically.

    I think part of it is that we’ve had more time to watch him and more time to come to terms with the fact that love him or hate him he’s going to be around for a while.

    I have a definite appreciation for the things he does well, I just think he doesn’t do them often enough and his numbers definitely back that up.

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