2012 Game Thread: Knicks v. Spurs

No Tyson Chandler, no Jared Jeffries and Fields has been demoted (which upsets three people total: me, Landry’s immediate family and possibly Andy Rautins). Well, this should be interesting, to say the least.

Lock your keyboards into all-caps for SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER AT THAT PATHETIC, LAZY, SELFISH, EGOISTIC BLIGHT ON HUMANITY WHO PLAYS SMALL FORWARD FOR THE KNICKS WHEN HE’S NOT KICKING PUPPIES AND FEEDING ON THE FLESH OF ORPHANED CHILDREN. Unless, you know, they win. Go team!

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Hey, did you know that in addition to banging the keys here and occasionally for the NY Times and at ESPN, Robert is a playwright, an actor and a wand'ring mendicant/gadfly? He also once wrestled a bear...and lost.

370 thoughts to “2012 Game Thread: Knicks v. Spurs”

  1. Great, we get Sean Elliot on the broadcast tonight. He’s the WC equivalent of Tommy Heinsohn.

    Expect a ton of Knicks bashing tonight, regardless of the score or how well guys are playing.

  2. Front court depth? We don’t need no stinking front court depth…I hope.

  3. Branded as one of “weaker teams” already by the announcers. Knicks, go and win just to shut those up!

  4. Sovereign:
    Branded as one of “weaker teams” already by the announcers. Knicks, go and win just to shut those up!

    I’m muting it.

  5. remember the amazing game last season at home against SA? the game we all thought wilson chandler had finally become a really good player? that was just another in a long list of teases that have been the knicks over the past year or so. i just find it hard to be at all optimistic right now.

  6. Ball movement and shutting down Duncan a Parker will be the key to today’s victory … Lin , Lin , for the Win , Win ?

  7. Harrelson is a really awesome position rebounder. If he can start hitting that corner shot he’s a player

  8. Height aside, the fact that guys that look like Josh Harrellson and Steve Novak are in the NBA, let alone on the same team, is amazing.

  9. ruruland:
    Harrelson is a really awesome position rebounder. If he can start hitting that corner shot he’s a player

    Agreed. He needs to get a little better around the rim.

  10. I’m pretty mad about the Fields demotion. It doesn’t matter how bad Amare and Melo play they still start and finish games but Fields has three bad games after about a month of great play and off to the bench. It would be one thing if we were starting Smith or Novak to put more shooting in the starting lineup but Shumpert is probably the only Knick worse at outside shooting than Fields. It can’t be about defense because Amare keeps playing and Fields has actually improved defensively.

  11. As someone else noted (nicos?), Fields is the only one you can bench other than Lin. Is it a bit unfair that ego and salary dictates starting jobs? Sure, but it is what it is.

  12. Argh. Damn chanfeed ain’t working for the second game in a row…can watch anything BUT the Knicks game, so I’m stuck with the espn.com game feed. ‘Melo looks good so far tho.

  13. cgreene:
    remember the amazing game last season at home against SA?the game we all thought wilson chandler had finally become a really good player?that was just another in a long list of teases that have been the knicks over the past year or so.i just find it hard to be at all optimistic right now.

    I agree. Sometimes I cut myself just to feel something different from these Knicks.

  14. Sovereign:
    Tony fucking Parker.

    Melo is shooting pretty well, though.

    Transition, again, killing the Knicks. You can say that about a lot of teams, but New York too easily falls into cross-matches getting back.

  15. Ben R:
    I’m pretty mad about the Fields demotion. It doesn’t matter how bad Amare and Melo play they still start and finish games but Fields has three bad games after about a month of great play and off to the bench. It would be one thing if we were starting Smith or Novak to put more shooting in the starting lineup but Shumpert is probably the only Knick worse at outside shooting than Fields. It can’t be about defense because Amare keeps playing and Fields has actually improved defensively.

    That’s a bit naive no? To think that STAT would get benched w his history? Cmon. Unless it was a clear cut move to try him off the bench in a specific 6th man role no coach would do that.

  16. Amare was great last night, and Fields’ “month of great play” certainly didn’t involve hitting any 3s. I don’t know what it is people see in him, the team looks much better without him, even with no Chandler.

  17. Jeremy Lin coming back to Planet Earth? Can he not stay on his feet or did they fail to teach him gravity a Harvard?

  18. Is it me, or Lin misses easy shots and makes those impossible “Stop-re-stop-shoot over everybody” shots?

  19. Melo gets it in the low post and swishes after being ignored or unseen the last time down. Good for him. Really.

  20. give melo the ball right now. his form on his jumper looks the best it has in months. and when he is on the post on leanord he should get it every single time. play the mismatches like every other team does against us.

  21. at least melo having a better game, would be sad if all the effort for naught. Put Shump on D, Tony is going to have 30 points before the half.

  22. Nick C.:
    Melo gets it in the low post and swishes after being ignored or unseen the last time down. Good for him. Really.

    Yeah, it was almost like they were freezing him out there.

  23. If Melo could start hitting the three ball like he did post trade last year, that would be nice….

  24. TheXman:
    no transition D whatsoever, jeezus christ

    I think someone there forgot that D’Antoni’s “Fast Pace Offense” is supposed to go THE OTHER WAY.

  25. This team is just not enjoyable to watch anymore. The CIA should just televise the knicks each time for coercive interrogation.

  26. Owen:
    If Melo could start hitting the three ball like he did post trade last year, that would be nice….

    How about he starts hitting an 18 foot jumper? Or maybe making his lay-ups on a consistent basis?

  27. Man, Landry moves so well off the ball…

    People often cite the percentage of a player’s buckets that are assisted, like it’s a bad thing. But getting open off cuts like that is a real talent….

  28. this is probably completely confirmation bias on my part, but is there any team in the league that gets burnt on those ridiculous shot or game clock running down bailout flings from opponents that go in?

  29. Baron is seriously fucking awful, just god awful. He makes 3 negatives plays for every 1 positive play, maybe it’s rush but dear god.

  30. We went from super deep to rail thin yet again…baron and jr smith giving us absolutely nothing, chandler and jeffries out….harrelson is pretty supbar so far too.

  31. art vandelay:
    this is probably completely confirmation bias on my part, but is there any team in the league that gets burnt on those ridiculous shot or game clock running down bailout flings from opponents that go in?

    Word. We play really good defense for like, 22 seconds and then almost have a steal, don’t get control of the ball, the defense isn’t set anymore and then the opposing team sinks a ridiculous last second 3 pointer.

    I think that’s happened MULTIPLE times a game the last few games.

  32. Solid line by Baron, thank you very much. Fucking let’s just play Lin for 45 minutes because a 20% Lin can’t be as fucking bad as this.

  33. Ugh. Tiago Splitter seriously looks like a giraffe. We’re not winning this one. Humbug.

  34. art vandelay:
    this is probably completely confirmation bias on my part, but is there any team in the league that gets burnt on those ridiculous shot or game clock running down bailout flings from opponents that go in?

    it totally is confirmation bias but funny how the same thing happened on the other end and jr smith missed his last second lucky heave

  35. Mulligan:
    Ugh. Tiago Splitter seriously looks like a giraffe. We’re not winning this one. Humbug.

    We have a lottery’s chance of winning.

  36. Is it weird I get happy a timeout or a break is called just out of fear the lead has a chance to grow.

  37. art vandelay:
    man TJ Ford is always getting hurt.

    For a bit I was worried Baron cheapshotted him, but I think he hit his head on his teammates leg or something on the way down.

  38. Or lin on that fast break….

    Lin looks pretty terrible…

    As awesome as this has been for him, it sucks that he has a gigantic target on his back every day…

  39. Owen:
    Not quite sure what Melo was doing on that Neal layup…

    Just a classic pointless foul from Melo. That’s a signature move at this point.

  40. awesome force by melo there, fuck this, god. Spurs aren’t even playing great this is such a joke. Lin is just not good any more.

  41. Not one single Knicks has played well so far…unless you want to say Fields’ cuts have been nice….literally if this game ended I would not give a a rating higher than a B- to a single one.

  42. lin brings out the best in all the opps. they all jealous of linsanity attention

  43. It’s like Lin and Melo are taking turns trying to play hero ball…surely they can do better!

  44. YES TIME OUT I DOn’T HAVE TO GET PISSED OFF ANY MORE FOR 2 MINUTES. THIS FUCKING JOKE, ALL CAPS IS COMING RIGHT UP AS THE LEAD WILL EXTEND TO 15 INTO THE HALF. SHIT IS A JOKE.

  45. Amare, you’re not getting rebounds if you won’t even put your arms up. Jesus Christ this is fucking awful basketball.

  46. ALSO MELO HAS ADVERSELY AFFECTED LIN, WHERE WERE ALL THE BRILLIANT PLAYS AND PASSES TO THE HOOP. HE NOW JUST DEFECTS TO MELO WHICH JUST ENDS UP BALLSTOPPING SUCKING OFFENSE. HATE ALL THIS FUCKING SHIT.

  47. melo and stat
    stat and melo
    ugh and ugher

    not to insert the earlier thread mid game but the bottom line for me is that a coach’s NUMBER ONE responsibility is to maximize the talent he has. it’s not to run a system or to be yeller or to be laid back or anything else. it’s to get the most out of your players’ skills. mike dantoni has failed to do that. this is a deep and talented team that has shown no signs of improvement minus a fluke streak stirred on by lin. mike dantoni has not put his team in the best position to succeed.

  48. melo needs to stop calling for the ball. hey douche, if u want the ball get good position or cut. stop asking for the ball in the high post and give bad body language when u dont get it.

  49. Knicks PGs are back to being terrible, and no interior D when Harrellson is out. let’s see some of Smith/Shumpert at PG.

  50. disgusted….we continually do the same thing time after time and expect a different result…wow….as I said last night, get ready for stephen a smith piece saturday morning calling for d’antoni’s job saturday morning if they lose friday…I don’t think his job is safe after all since linsanity (sadly) re-raised expectations that won’t be fulfilled eventually.

  51. Some awesome defense, Kentucky Wildcats can score on this team. Shit is a fucking joke, joke joke, fucking joke. How are we a top 5 defensive team? Oh yeah forgot no Chandler, this is a fucking joke. FUCKING JOKE. TIME TO PLAY FROM BEHIND AGAIN.

  52. It’s not the offense. It’s the Knicks defense that is killing them.

    I think it is on the scouting report now: take it against Amare, and Novak too if he is on the floor.

  53. CAN HALFTIME JUST GET HERE SOON, PLEASE JUST GET TO HALFTIME THIS SHIT IS A FUCKING JOKE

  54. Ah, I remember in 2005 when the crafty veteran, Amar’e Stoudemire, schooled the new-to-the-league Tim Duncan. Too bad now Stoudemire is an old man past his prime.

    Wait….it was Stoudemire who was the young player then? Are you sure?

  55. Ball movement stopped once it got to Melo, who thankgod made the shot on that play.

  56. What happened to fucken tough media and fanbase that will shame Melo into playing team ball. please take him out and put fields in. easily played the best team game this game.

  57. Nick C.:
    Is the open paint on defense all just because T-1000 and Jared are out?

    Amare and Melo are saving all their energy so they can chuck up idiotic shots on the offensive end.

  58. I think it is safe to say our offense AND defense is hurting us tonight….they are shooting a scintillating 34% thus far!

  59. play Jorts more, it’s crazy to only play him 10 minutes with Tyson/Jeffries out.

  60. jon abbey: his ceiling looks lower every game.

    I guess you’re right.

    Okay. We’re awful at halftime. What do we do to avoid losing by 45?

  61. Kikuchiyo:
    Ah, I remember in 2005 when the crafty veteran, Amar’e Stoudemire, schooled the new-to-the-league Tim Duncan. Too bad now Stoudemire is an old man past his prime.

    Wait….it was Stoudemire who was the young player then? Are you sure?

    hehe, nice. well, depressing, but nicely done.

  62. git damn. if melo takes another contested 3 with 20 left on the shot clock…. cant he just tear an ACL please.

  63. at least we won’t have to pay lin out of the MLE this summer now…haha!

  64. Knicks haven’t won in SA since 2002-2003 season…I am sure one of these years they will get it done….

    anyone else tired of rooting for other teams to lose rather than our own team (realistically, on many occasions) to win?

  65. On the other hand, the Kid showed he can learn, so I won’t throw him under the bus yet.

  66. Once again, I dno’t Lin is playing THAT BAD, he didn’t play bad D there on Parker on the last play, Manu was just SO FUCKING OPEN. NO rotation whatsoever, no fucking interior D. D’Antoni was smart to sit Chandler, we have no fucking hell’s chance to winning this game. Maybe if Parker blows out his knee and Tim Duncan faints to narcolepsy, and maybe Melo gets struck by lightning we could win.

  67. Th

    jon abbey: Sovereign:
    Announcer talking trash on Lin now…

    his ceiling looks lower every game.

    jon abbey again doing his lin-hating. Always hitting that one note. When Shumpert gets burned by Parker, you of course say nothing bc you’re all SHUMP SHUMP. But you would be all over Lin about it if Lin were guarding Parker.

    The announcers making the game about Lin vs Parker is lame. On the defensive end, Lin is not even guarding Parker. And on the offensive end, Lin is deferring to Melo doing his ISOs. Lin has not been aggressive, which is my concern.

  68. art vandelay:
    Knicks haven’t won in SA since 2002-2003 season…I am sure one of these years they will get it done….

    anyone else tired of rooting for other teams to lose rather than our own team (realistically, on many occasions) to win?

    Only thing I have done most of the season (besides the Linsanity stretch) was rooting for other teams since the Knicks themselves have sucked abysmal balls year after year. Every fucking year, they are just sheer disappointment. Every fucking year. Franchise may be cursed in some way.

  69. San Antonio is such an incredibly smart team, every Spurs game I watch I get the impression that Popovich is the single best coach in the game and it’s not even close.

    of course, having a basketball genius like Duncan on the team must help practicing just a tiny bit.

  70. limpidgimp:
    Th

    jon abbey again doing his lin-hating. Always hitting that one note. When Shumpert gets burned by Parker, you of course say nothing bc you’re all SHUMP SHUMP. But you would be all over Lin about it if Lin were guarding Parker.

    The announcers making the game about Lin vs Parker is lame. On the defensive end, Lin is not even guarding Parker. And on the offensive end, Lin is deferring to Melo doing his ISOs. Lin has not been aggressive, which is my concern.

    Don’t be unfair to Jon, he hates on Landry as well. Parker’s gone by Lin, Parker and Smith at will. He goes by a lot of players. The problem is that our big guys just stand there and watch once he penetrates.

  71. BTW, has anyone else noticed that Lin seems to have developed a fear of driving and being aggressive to an extent? Back in the Linsanity stretch he played without any fear at all.

  72. I’m a die hard Knicks fan . But it very dissapointing to see a team with so much potential take low precentage shots when ball movement is the key. Lin might flourish in mr.Pringles offense , but he he will never earn the respect of this team because of how the media has belittled him … He has to go!!!!

  73. limpidgimp:
    Th

    jon abbey again doing his lin-hating. Always hitting that one note. When Shumpert gets burned by Parker, you of course say nothing bc you’re all SHUMP SHUMP. But you would be all over Lin about it if Lin were guarding Parker.

    The announcers making the game about Lin vs Parker is lame. On the defensive end, Lin is not even guarding Parker. And on the offensive end, Lin is deferring to Melo doing his ISOs. Lin has not been aggressive, which is my concern.

    Shumpert’s not playing especially well either, but Lin has one assist in 14 minutes.

    and Lin got burned more than a few times by Parker also.

  74. DRed: Parker’s gone by Lin, Parker and Smith at will. He goes by a lot of players. The problem is that our big guys just stand there and watch once he penetrates.

    I absolutely agree. The problem is not Parker playing one-on-one and beating the defender off the dribble; it’s the bad rotations that happen after a pick is set for Parker.

  75. that problem is the shitty offense that plays well into parker’s speed in the transition game.

    DRed: Don’t be unfair to Jon, he hates on Landry as well.Parker’s gone by Lin, Parker and Smith at will.He goes by a lot of players.The problem is that our big guys just stand there and watch once he penetrates.

  76. limpidgimp: me about Lin vs Parker is lame. On the defensive end, Lin is not even guarding Parker. And on t

    Melo has fucked up lin’s game, bottomline. Everyone can see it, Lin hasn’t been the same because the game is different. Melo pouts and wants the ball then nothing comes out of the offense. It’s literally hilarious to see how much of a max player just ruins this team. I’ve never seen anything like this, which “star” when sits has their team start winning again. Melo is like the new Starbury, the player who wanted to be at the Knicks, who will likely end up leaving in disgrace. Every team Starbury left, his previous team got better.

    FUCK THIS SHIT

  77. yeah, Parker goes by everyone in the league, and on the rare occasion people can guard him, he is fantastic at throwing his body into the defender then acting like he was fouled. he did it twice to Shumpert that half.

  78. Owen:
    Harden is awesome.

    Lin, needs to stop shooting….

    Lol give em a year or two he’ll have a pure jumper , he does have good form

  79. +100

    TheXman: Melo has fucked up lin’s game, bottomline.Everyone can see it, Lin hasn’t been the same because the game is different.Melo pouts and wants the ball then nothing comes out of the offense.It’s literally hilarious to see how much of a max player just ruins this team.I’ve never seen anything like this, which “star” when sits has their team start winning again.Melo is like the new Starbury, the player who wanted to be at the Knicks, who will likely end up leaving in disgrace.Every team Starbury left, his previous team got better.

    FUCK THIS SHIT

  80. Agreed.

    TheXman: Melo has fucked up lin’s game, bottomline.Everyone can see it, Lin hasn’t been the same because the game is different.Melo pouts and wants the ball then nothing comes out of the offense.It’s literally hilarious to see how much of a max player just ruins this team.I’ve never seen anything like this, which “star” when sits has their team start winning again.Melo is like the new Starbury, the player who wanted to be at the Knicks, who will likely end up leaving in disgrace.Every team Starbury left, his previous team got better.

    FUCK THIS SHIT

  81. LOL AMARE JUST GETS OUT OF THE WAY when parker drives, He literally JUST RUNS AWAY FROM PARKER. RUNNNS THE FUCK AWAY, HOW IS THIS FUCKING ACCEPTABLE. PLEASE SOMEONE JEFFRIES, BALKMAN GOD. I FUCKING CAN’T TAKE THIS.

  82. Lin has not be great my any stretch, but he’d have more than one assist if Melo and Amare weren’t so awful on offense.

    Need more Jorts. At least he looks like he gives a damn.

  83. jon abbey: Shumpert’s not playing especially well either, but Lin has one assist in 14 minutes.

    and Lin got burned more than a few times by Parker also.

    Indeed. But there are no assists to be had by anyone if it’s just Melo ISOs. (An assist is only awarded if the basket goes in within 2 dribbles upon getting the pass, that’s my understanding.) There was a stretch in which it was several Melo ISOs in a row. Assists are for team play, not ISOs.

  84. WHat happens to the pick and roll today?

    Melo needs to get booed everytime he touches the ball the next game.

  85. I can’t tell the difference between these Knicks and the Pre-Linsanity Knicks.

    Comparing this Lin to Linsanity is apples and oranges. Linsanity ran the offense whereas this Lin just runs around a little and then dumps to Melo. Lin’s not aggressive. Melo pouts and doesn’t play hard.

    Take the 3 that Melo hit late in the 1st with like 18 seconds left on the shot clock. That was a terrible shot (as in, not the type of show you should take, though it was nice that it went in). But, since it went in, that just re-affirms, in Melo’s mind at least, that he’s doing it right.

    Lin hasn’t been getting many turnovers but that’s in part, because he’s not playing his aggressive game. His aggressive game does lead to more turnovers, but also leads to an offense that moves without the ball, looks for the extra pass, and plays with a lot of energy; those benefits outweigh the harm of an extra 2-4 turnovers.

  86. limpidgimp: Indeed. But there are no assists to be had by anyone if it’s just Melo ISOs. (An assist is only awarded if the basket goes in within 2 dribbles upon getting the pass, that’s my understanding.) There was a stretch in which it was several Melo ISOs in a row. Assists are for team play, not ISOs.

    thanks for the explanation, Lin has been missing guys all game and forcing up shots when he shouldn’t.

  87. thailandvc: WHat happens to the pick and roll today?

    When Amare sets a screen, he looks so half ass at it, and often doesn’t even roll afterwards, but just loafs around.

  88. I know what’s wrong. We haven’t had Bill Walker the past few games. Once he’s back, we’ll be good.

  89. jon abbey: thanks for the explanation, Lin has been missing guys all game and forcing up shots when he shouldn’t.

    Thanks for the sarcasm. You were promoting starting Baron Davis over Lin. Please. Keep doing your Lin-hating and cherry picking individual plays as your ‘evidence.’

  90. Melo & Amar’e need to restructure there contract if there really in a wining state of mind and get some good young CONSISTANT SHOOTING roll players and stop bring in big name player tht are at the end of there career and make fan believe they’ll redo Angels in the outfield.. second thing their only worth honestly a little more than half of what they make ..

  91. I haven’t seen a big man just fail to lift his arms for rebounds like this since Eddy Curry left town. Amare just seems like he’s totally unaware of what’s going on when he’s not on offense.

  92. limpidgimp: When Amare sets a screen, he looks so half ass at it, and often doesn’t even roll afterwards, but just loafs around.

    Half ass is quite the compliment. I wouldn’t even call what he does on those plays “setting screens.”

  93. limpidgimp: Thanks for the sarcasm. You were promoting starting Baron Davis over Lin. Please. Keep doing your Lin-hating and cherry picking individual plays as your ‘evidence.’

    sorry, Mrs. Lin. thanks for stopping by.

  94. I don’t read too much on us not being able to guard Parker… he’s been really good this year, nobody can truly stop him from getting to the lane.

    however, our offensive effort is what bothers me… this Spurs are no longer the elite defensive team they used to be, we have the personnel to score on them quite easily… not with Melo and Stat shooting so terribly and a stagnant offense, obviously.

    I’m quickly losing hope.

  95. That was not a good 3 ball shot by Anthony, of course it went in. So we’ll see 5 more of those this half.

  96. whose fault is it? D’Antonni or Melo?

    NattyIce:
    I can’t tell the difference between these Knicks and the Pre-Linsanity Knicks.

    Comparing this Lin to Linsanity is apples and oranges. Linsanity ran the offense whereas this Lin just runs around a little and then dumps to Melo.Lin’s not aggressive.Melo pouts and doesn’t play hard.

    Take the 3 that Melo hit late in the 1st with like 18 seconds left on the shot clock.That was a terrible shot (as in, not the type of show you should take, though it was nice that it went in).But, since it went in, that just re-affirms, in Melo’s mind at least, that he’s doing it right.

    Lin hasn’t been getting many turnovers but that’s in part, because he’s not playing his aggressive game. His aggressive game does lead to more turnovers, but also leads to an offense that moves without the ball, looks for the extra pass, and plays with a lot of energy; those benefits outweigh the harm of an extra 2-4 turnovers.

  97. Look at that shit. Melo passing to people’s ankle again. Reason? Cuz he only passes when hes in trouble.

  98. TheXman:
    LIN CANNOT MAKE A MOTHER FUCKING SHOT

    Dude, he had MELO ISO for the 5th time in a row. So he drove and got to the basket and barely missed the layup. The criticism should be on STAT who for some reason can’t throw down off of what should’ve been an easy board. I want to see the Knicks moving. Even if Melo scores frequently from the ISO, having our guys just stand around all the time is lethal. We need to have our guys invested in each play instead of just standing around while Melo does his thing.

  99. Take stat off duncan, and now the Parker PNR doesn’t work, but STAT’s new man, Blair, starts to destroy us on the glass…

  100. i agree with nattyice. all these stupid critics AND FANS kept bitching about lin’s turnovers EVEN when he was scoring over 20 pts and knicks won games. now he’s too conscious about making turnovers which is making him play passive. good job critics and fans!

  101. Good freaking lord, grab a damn rebound Stat… you’re our center tonight for god’s sake.

  102. So… what can we get for Lin? Not worth the MLE. Melo is the star, he should be the one who gets the ball. Lin sucks, start BD

  103. thailandvc:
    whose fault is it? D’Antonni or Melo?

    Both but more on MDA. We know Melo’s strength’s and weaknesses. You don’t run a system that doesn’t work for your best player. Surround Melo with spot-up shooters and cutters. We have some of those pieces (spot up: JR, Novak; cutters: JR, Iman, Fields).

    But overall, the lack of consistent hustle on D by Melo & STAT is ultimately what’s fatal. You can’t bench those guys to teach them a lesson. You can’t make them do anything. They run the team more than MDA.

  104. Lin is great on broken plays/loose balls, too bad those don’t happen more often.

  105. jon abbey:
    Lin is great on broken plays/loose balls, too bad those don’t happen more often.

    He’s been quite good this half. He took too many 3’s in the first half. He’s not a good outside shooter.

    fuck you, melo

  106. I mean, I am prepared to accept for the moment that the “Old Jeremy” is lurking somewhere in the shadows, waiting for Melo to reinjure his groin…

  107. DRed: He’s been quite good this half.He took too many 3?s in the first half.He’s not a good outside shooter.

    fuck you, melo

    he didn’t take any 3s in the first half, missed two in the third quarter.

  108. Lin should be happy to get a min contract next season. Versus Miami/Boston/Dallas… all crap performances.

  109. Everyone’s missing layups.

    I just don’t think anyone on this team is above average at their positions in this league, except Chandler who’s hurt.

  110. I am a bad fan I know, but time to check out the last 4 minutes of Nets-Clippers….

    90-88

  111. jon abbey: he didn’t take any 3s in the first half, missed two in the third quarter.

    Second quarter, start of the 3rd quarter, it’s all blurred in my mind.

    I stand by my ‘fuck you, melo’, however.

  112. On the bright side, you can’t say our team doesn’t play hard!

    And Lin goes without a TO until halfway through the 3rd!

    Funny how those TOs drop when he is no longer pushing the ball as much. Do we like the trade-off?

    Stating the obvious, Linsanity and this Lin-hating are both way overboard. He was great for 10 games but no one should have assumed that made him a great player. At the same time, he’s 23, and has played less than 20 real NBA games in his life. No big-time college. In a normal universe, he’d be a mid-first rounder, a quarter of the way through his rookie season. The highs and lows of a promising young player.

    I missed the first half of this one… am pretty tempted to miss the rest, too.

  113. My other Lin comment is that the scouting reports all had him as more of a scoring PG, than a pass-first Nash type. Those scouts were on to something..

  114. I’d just like to point out that everyone on the Knicks has been so awful on offense since the break (besides Novak) that it’s been extremely easy for teams to plan their defense to stop Lin. If any of our starters could muster something resembling and offensive attack it would lift a lot of defensive pressure off of Lin. If Stat knew how to set a screen that would help too.

  115. Owen:
    I am a bad fan I know, but time to check out the last 4 minutes of Nets-Clippers….

    90-88

    Good call… 90-89.

  116. we will probably lose tonight.

    can’t we just bench Melo the next game to SHOW him what the potential of this team is if he plays within the system?

  117. I now understand what “STAT” comes from:

    static |?statik|
    adjective
    1 lacking in movement, action, or change, esp. in a way viewed as undesirable or uninteresting :

    from Greek statikos ‘causing to stand,’

  118. thailandvc:
    we will probably lose tonight.

    can’t we just bench Melo the next game to SHOW him what the potential of this team is if he plays within the system?

    no, the next game is against Milwaukee and is huge.

  119. I feel like I am going through some painful right of passage and just need to suffer a bit more and will feel cleansed tomorrow morning

  120. This is why I hate the Spurs… Flop more than any team in the league and their coach flips out over a foul with less than a minute remaining in the third quarter of a blowout win. Also… I’ve officially given up on Stoudemire. Stay tuned my ass.

  121. I’m desensitized now. I don’t even feel too sad anymore when the Knicks lose.

  122. Nets game getting violent, Humphries and Blake Griffin

    A. Look identical

    B. Hate each others guts apparently

    Looks like Humphries may have injured Griffin going for a loose ball. Hit him about knee high.

    And Shelden Williams and Kenyon Martin might get into it too…

    Seriously, worth checking out..

  123. Great defensive display by Amare, just hilarious how easy it is to score over him. Where is Jeffries and Chandler? Let’s go back to the pre Amare and Melo team that actually won games for us.

    Bright side, I like that we lose by 40 points instead of OT at least. Don’t give me some false hope like we had a chance.

  124. Ya. Hang on the rim STAT. Might as well stay there while the rest of your teammates play defense.

  125. thailandvc:
    we will probably lose tonight.

    can’t we just bench Melo the next game to SHOW him what the potential of this team is if he plays within the system?

    What?

  126. Replace Stat and Melo for great defensive players who play solid team ball, can hit the open shot and board. Is that too much to ask for?

  127. wahhh? are u serious?

    see its this kind of thinking, pure stats approach, that re-affirms Melo’s style. I’m not saying hes bad. I’m saying he’s a poor fit.

    jon abbey:
    this one is not on Melo, who on NY has played better than him tonight?

  128. TheXman:
    Replace Stat and Melo for great defensive players who play solid team ball, can hit the open shot and board.Is that too much to ask for?

    Melo is the least of the team’s worries tonight. Not sure what you’re missing but the bigs are getting absolutely destroyed and the guards haven’t kept anyone out of the lane.

  129. I miss the Novak, Shump, Chandler, Lin, and Jefferies team. Hell throw in Walker too.

  130. Yes, that Milwaukee game will be huge….huge in the sense that it will help determine which team gets to be embarrassed in 4 games in the first round of the playoffs by miami or chicago.

  131. TheXman:
    Replace Stat and Melo for great defensive players who play solid team ball, can hit the open shot and board.Is that too much to ask for?

    Yes.

  132. thailandvc:
    wahhh? are u serious?

    see its this kind of thinking, pure stats approach, that re-affirms Melo’s style. I’m not saying hes bad. I’m saying he’s a poor fit.

    Dude, honestly, what are you talking about?

    Melo held the ball and then shot after 100 failed PNRs….

  133. Owen:
    You got to love Harrelson rocking the +4….

    meaningless I know…

    But still….

    He’s been marginally better than AMar’e, can;t make an open shot though and that hurts.

  134. This team is just so embarrassing. I didn’t think it was possible for so many players on one team to under-perform for such a long time, and it seems to happen to the Knicks so often. It really seems like no matter who the Knicks acquire, they will somehow make a way to lose on a regular basis. But there has only been a few constants in this losing formula – MDA (and Amare and Melo to a degree)

  135. what im saying is fuck melo thats what im saying.

    ruruland: Dude, honestly, what are you talking about?

    Melo held the ball and then shot after 100 failed PNRs….

  136. limpidgimp:
    It looks like Baron getting more minutes than Lin. And it’s not looking good.

    Baron can’t buy a basket, but he has 7 assists in 16 minutes and a much better +/- than Lin.

  137. How the fuck does Amare Stoudemire have 10 rebounds tonight. Every time I look up he’s getting out worked and out positioned by the Spurs ball boy.

  138. A) Melo can fit with the team by playing team ball.

    B) Everybody else needs to fit in Melo’s style that means:

    1) Ability to stand still and watch melo ISOs attentively
    2) Learn how to catch bullet passes with knees and ankles
    3) Offensive rebound Melo’s misses and give the ball back to him for more ISOs
    4) Learn how to guard 2 man at a time when Melo is not paying attention and arguing with refs

  139. jon abbey: yeah, maybe his worst game of the year.

    i blame Stat for those because Shump got beat in the p-n-r and Stat was not hedging at all

  140. TheXman:
    At least Melo can say he tried all he can, “My team sucks!”

    Can we get over this. If you’re a Knicks fan right now watching this game, the things you need to be concerned about include the absolutely awful PNR defense from the guards and bigs, and getting totally dominated inside the paint… the bigs again.

    Lin’s been neutralized on offense, and is absolutely atrocious defensively.

  141. jon abbey: Baron can’t buy a basket, but he has 7 assists in 16 minutes and a much better +/- than Lin.

    lin passed plenty but the others didnt get their shots

  142. TheXman:
    At least Melo can say he tried all he can, “My team sucks!”

    Melo’s probably been the best player on the floor for the Knicks… 27 on better than 50 percent shooting… only player who looks like he knows what offense is. Hasn’t been worse than any other Knick on defense and his immediate responsibility in Jefferson, as Ruruland mentioned, hasn’t made a basket all night.

  143. The Knicks announcers are usually very generous towards Amare.
    The Spurs announcers just say it like is — Amare’s defense is a massive liability that everyone looks to exploit.

  144. 27 points on 24 shots, no need to give him a plaque….

    2 rebounds, 3 assists….

    But yeah, he might have been the best knick out there…

    Chandler seems to be an impact player for us, from what I can tell from watching tonight. I noted his absence….

  145. Gamecockerbocker: Melo’s probably been the best player on the floor for the Knicks… 27 on better than 50 percent shooting… only player who looks like he knows what offense is. Hasn’t been worse than any other Knick on defense and his immediate responsibility in Jefferson, as Ruruland mentioned, hasn’t made a basket all night.

    it’s deceptive, though. he was 4-12 in the first half and the second half has pretty much been garbage time the whole way.

  146. One of those games, HEY SOME POSITIVES AT LEAST TONIGHT WE’LL BE ALL RIGHT LATER WHEN IT STARTS GELLING RIGHT GUYS! FUCKING SHIT

  147. Lin’s decline in production in recent games can be attributed to him not getting enough downhill penetration. When he was on his hot streak, he got into the lane with regularity, and either kicked it out to open teammates or just scored it himself. He also got tied up in the lane and committed a bunch of turnovers, but the good outweighed the bad. Now, he’s not getting into the lane nearly enough. Usually he’ll just bring the ball up and swing it to Melo or another player.

    On top of that, when we don’t have Chandler and Jeffries, we are an awful defensive team. I’m willing to give it some more time, but right now it seems like there are quite a few fundamental and structural problems with this team. What do posters think about their effort level? I feel like it’s just not good enough, or if they are giving effort they aren’t doing it with discipline. Running out at shooters too late doesn’t constitute good defensive effort, which leads me to the team’s next problem: we give up WAY too many open threes. Honestly, this team is just awful at depending the three point shot. Guys like Gary Neal and Richard Jefferson (respected 3 point shooters) were getting open looks all night long, regardless of whether or not they were knocking the shots down. I wouldn’t chalk that up to Tyson and Jeffries’ absence, since this 3 point shot has been happening for a while now. It’s just so frustrating to be a fan right now. I don’t post often but I feel the need to vent right now. Years and years of losing and every time you think it’s going to get better, it doesn’t. I know it’s completely subjective but I’m disgusted with our guys right now. All of them.

  148. A lot of Melo’s points were low percentage quick pull-ups. I mean granted if he’s had a history of making those 50% rate then I”ll be ok with it. But he doesn’t, especially this year. Most of his points were tough pull-up shots, I didn’t see any toward the rim or in the flow of offense. So whatever, we can see how valuable Chandler is. I would say Harrelson and Chandler frontcourt would be pretty decent. Harrelson will just bottle up on the boards and play ok D. We can live without Amare’s offense, it hasn’t been that great this year anyways.

  149. what I don’t get is how Jorts only plays 22 minutes when he is the only one with a prayer of defending the post.

  150. D’antoni wastes too much time on bad calls. i think arguing a bad call is senseless and takes away from just coaching the team

  151. jon abbey: it’s deceptive, though. he was 4-12 in the first half and the second half has pretty much been garbage time the whole way.

    I can’t think of anyone on our team that played better than him.

  152. Haha, of course Lin scores 8 in 90 seconds of garbage time including 2 treys.

    Team looked awful out there. I think it’s coaching to blame, because, there are moments where they look like a team. Where they bring the thunder. The effort and intensity. But most of the time, it’s not there. So, I suspect that’s why we were so much better during the 7 game win streak. We had hungry desperate guys out there giving 110%. Now, you can’t do that every game, of course, but, we’ll barely make the 7/8th seed with Melo hitting mid-range jump shots while also suppressing everyone else’s intensity. The guy isn’t hungry. If you’re going to be an ISO guy then you better give 100% every game (Kobe). Otherwise, it’s not worth the trade-off. And frankly, it was more fun watching Linsanity run the show and see the energy of everyone else trying to get involved. Lin just looks tentative out there. Can’t push too hard; must give MELO.

    And I don’t think I’m being a tad harsh. We were without our best defender and the Spurs at home are pretty sick, but, we didn’t bring the intensity.

    But ultimately why I put it on the coach is that he’s responsible for getting his guys to play hard. They just looked lost out there.

  153. Have you given up on your optimism for this team yet? I hope this doesn’t lead to the whole “everyone sucks but Melo” talk.

    ruruland: Melo is the least of the team’s worries tonight. Not sure what you’re missing but the bigs are getting absolutely destroyed and the guards haven’t kept anyone out of the lane.

  154. I really find it fascinating that the comments are focused on Melo tonight after what we witnessed on the defensive end of the floor.

    I’m now joining you in hoping Melo is traded or amnestied, haha, just so the board and Knicks fans can get back to some level of sanity.

  155. TheXman:
    A lot of Melo’s points were low percentage quick pull-ups.I mean granted if he’s had a history of making those 50% rate then I”ll be ok with it.But he doesn’t, especially this year.Most of his points were tough pull-up shots, I didn’t see any toward the rim or in the flow of offense.So whatever, we can see how valuable Chandler is.I would say Harrelson and Chandler frontcourt would be pretty decent.Harrelson will just bottle up on the boards and play ok D.We can live without Amare’s offense, it hasn’t been that great this year anyways.

    I think a front court of Jeffries/Chandler would be better. At least Jeffries’ missed threes hit the rim… I swear to god Tim Duncan was defending Jorts from the paint when he got the ball outside the three point line.

  156. I can only cheer for the Knuggets to beat the Cavs now. COOOME ON 8th SEED! Huge win for the Bullz, yes! Guaranteed loss with Bucks coming back if Chandler doesn’t play. Jennings will go for 30 plus. Melo will get 30 points off 40 shots.

  157. ruruland:

    I’m now joining you in hoping Melo is traded or amnestied, haha, just so the board and Knicks fans can get back to some level of sanity.

    only a title will bring that, and that is never going to happen.

  158. Just a note on my bet with Ruruland. Strong showing from Melo, garbage time or not, posted a TS% of 55.7%

    James Harden scored 30 points on 12 shots and 11 free throws. With 1 turnover. +27. TS% for those keeping score at home = Infinity…

    It’s a little crazy but every time I see him play, I think he might be the best player on the Thunder…..

  159. In the last 2 games, the Knicks guards and bigs have been destroyed by pick and rolls. Opposing teams can just run that all day long. I put that on D’Antoni.

  160. Owen:
    Bile and Jaundice people, Bile and Jaundice….

    Owen:
    Bile and Jaundice people, Bile and Jaundice….

    You sure they even played well enough for that?

  161. Will the Thrill:
    Have you given up on your optimism for this team yet? I hope this doesn’t lead to the whole “everyone sucks but Melo” talk.

    Honestly, I’m thinking about going somewhere else because there’s a pathological need to talk about Melo regardless of what else is going on.

    He certainly deserves a lot of criticism for how he played up to this point, but that has nothing to do with why the Knicks were atrocious tonight.

  162. Gamecockerbocker: ’ll barely make the 7/8th seed with Melo hitting mid-range jump shots while also suppressing everyone else’s intensity. The guy isn’t hungry. If you’re going to be an ISO guy then you better give

    Well if Jeffries is still out, but yeah can’t believe I’m saying this but I would rather have Jeffries in there than Stat. Jeffries has surprisingly been solid shooting the outside J. I mean teams are just giving that to him and with that much time he’s been hitting it, so I’m ok with that. JR Smith’s shot looks like it’s back, and BDiddy still awesome at shooting.

  163. MDA needs to go back to freakin Team USA game tapes.

    Melo CAN play team ball. Lots of evidence of that.

    Can we hire Mike K as an advisor or something?

  164. Gamecockerbocker: Melo’s probably been the best player on the floor for the Knicks… 27 on better than 50 percent shooting… only player who looks like he knows what offense is.

    I’ll give you this much. He know his offense. That stat you cite is deceiving. Those points and slightly above 50% shooting percentage comes at the expense everyone else’s game.

    We all know Melo is a scorer. He’s the most talented of the Knicks by far. But, it comes at a heavy cost, and so long as we focus on the positive (27 on 24 shots) and ignore the negatives (2 boards, 3 assists), we’ll be consigned to mediocrity. Like, how the hell does he have only 2 boards when you’re athletic as he is and playing the 3/4 for 35+ minutes. That’s hustle, or more precisely, a lack thereof.

  165. Jake S.:
    Limpidgimp and Loathing. We’re a cheery lot.

    Sorry about being a downer about it. I root for the Knicks bc they are the underdog, and have some attachment to them since I lived in NY for a few years a while back. But it’s been painful following them. Lots of ups and downs.

  166. ruruland: Honestly, I’m thinking about going somewhere else because there’s a pathological need to talk about Melo regardless of what else is going on.

    He certainly deserves a lot of criticism for how he played up to this point, but that has nothing to do with why the Knicks were atrocious tonight.

    Not to pour it on here, but did you see him on defense tonight? He was an absolute nightmare. That Danny Green lay-up towards the end was totally maddening. Sorry, he’s the best player on the team. For better or worse, the buck starts and stops with him.

  167. About the only positive is that Smith, Melo and Fields all shot okay from the outside- all had been ice cold.

  168. Melo’s attitude on the court is terrible. When Lin was running the show, people were selfless and there was a sense of joy. Of course they were winning too and inspired by Lin, but they were unselfish players. Melo always talked about needing to get his touches and usually doesn’t make the extra pass. Teammates obv don’t have a problem with this because hey it’s Melo guy, perennial ALL-STAR, so they’re ok with him taking the shots and missing. There isn’t a lot of joy with that kind of playmaking.

  169. jon abbey: Baron can’t buy a basket, but he has 7 assists in 16 minutes and a much better +/- than Lin.

    Yeah, but some of this is because Parker was on the bench for a lot of Baron’s minutes. He did play well — the assists and the steals — but that 0/7 was pretty brutal. He is now shooting 23% on the season from the field and 15% from the three point line.

  170. SJK:
    Lin’s decline in production in recent games can be attributed to him not getting enough downhill penetration. When he was on his hot streak, he got into the lane with regularity, and either kicked it out to open teammates or just scored it himself. He also got tied up in the lane and committed a bunch of turnovers, but the good outweighed the bad. Now, he’s not getting into the lane nearly enough. Usually he’ll just bring the ball up and swing it to Melo or another player.

    On top of that, when we don’t have Chandler and Jeffries, we are an awful defensive team. I’m willing to give it some more time, but right now it seems like there are quite a few fundamental and structural problems with this team. What do posters think about their effort level? I feel like it’s just not good enough, or if they are giving effort they aren’t doing it with discipline. Running out at shooters too late doesn’t constitute good defensive effort, which leads me to the team’s next problem: we give up WAY too many open threes. Honestly, this team is just awful at depending the three point shot. Guys like Gary Neal and Richard Jefferson (respected 3 point shooters) were getting open looks all night long, regardless of whether or not they were knocking the shots down. I wouldn’t chalk that up to Tyson and Jeffries’ absence, since this 3 point shot has been happening for a while now. It’s just so frustrating to be a fan right now. I don’t post often but I feel the need to vent right now. Years and years of losing and every time you think it’s going to get better, it doesn’t. I know it’s completely subjective but I’m disgusted with our guys right now. All of them.

    Agree 100%. Spot on.

  171. Gamecockerbocker: Idk… 8 points on 10 shots kind of negates whatever defensive effect he had.

    Especially when you consider the kind of looks he was getting. He was the only guy who hedged screens but was murdered by Duncan in the post and outworked on the boards (not to the extent Amar’e was).

    Melo’s never going to be an impact defensive player in terms of making over-rotations but he’s not hurting the Knicks right now.

    He’s not the guy being put in pick and roll, he’s not the guy teams are attacking with individual match-ups. He plays solid man defense and is being asked to switch screens just as everyone else is.

    The Knicks defense issues revolve around atrocious PNR defense from guards and arguably, having the worst defensive player getting regular minutes in the league — Amar’e.

    Melo’s played on many top-10 defenses in his career. And, the current Nuggets team has gotten much worse since his departure(not saying it’s because he’s left of course, but it’s much different than what people predicted.)

  172. limpidgimp: Sorry about being a downer about it. I root for the Knicks bc they are the underdog, and have some attachment to them since I lived in NY for a few years a while back. But it’s been painful following them. Lots of ups and downs.

    No apologies needed! I’ve been banging my head against the same wall for the last twenty years.

  173. NattyIce: I’ll give you this much.He know his offense.That stat you cite is deceiving.Those points and slightly above 50% shooting percentage comes at the expense everyone else’s game.

    We all know Melo is a scorer.He’s the most talented of the Knicks by far.But, it comes at a heavy cost, and so long as we focus on the positive (27 on 24 shots) and ignore the negatives (2 boards, 3 assists), we’ll be consigned to mediocrity.Like, how the hell does he have only 2 boards when you’re athletic as he is and playing the 3/4 for 35+ minutes.That’s hustle, or more precisely, a lack thereof.

    He did have 8 rebounds against Dallas. It could have something to do with being matched up against a guy (Jefferson) who only took (and missed) threes the entire night. Wasn’t near the rim much on defense… I’m honestly stretching here, he definitely should’ve had more than 2 rebounds. But still, I don’t think anyone on the team played better than him… which isn’t saying much because the entire team played like shit.

  174. Eh, Jefferson missed one 2 pointer as well. Maybe that was one half of Melo’s rebounds.

  175. Jake S.: Not to pour it on here, but did you see him on defense tonight? He was an absolute nightmare. That Danny Green lay-up towards the end was totally maddening. Sorry, he’s the best player on the team. For better or worse, the buck starts and stops with him.

    You mean the one where he was caught in the paint and allowed the layup?

    Look, he’s never going to be a shot-blocker or a guy who takes charges.

    Every significant problem the Knicks have revolves around guard penetration and and totally abysmal interior play when Chandler or Jeffries are out?

  176. ruruland: Especially when you consider the kind of looks he was getting. He was the only guy who hedged screens but was murdered by Duncan in the post and outworked on the boards (not to the extent Amar’e was).

    Like I said before… when you catch the ball outside the three-point line (like Jorts did) and your man (Duncan) can defend you from the paint, your teammates are basically playing offense 4-on-5

  177. All we ask for is effort. He can be decent but it looks like hes saving his energy for offense.

    We don’t need him to dominate on offense. Effort on D + play within a proven system. that’s it.

    ruruland: You mean the one where he was caught in the paint and allowed the layup?

    Look, he’s never going to be a shot-blocker or a guy who takes charges.

    Every significant problem the Knicks have revolves around guard penetration and and totally abysmal interior play when Chandler or Jeffries are out?

  178. TheXman:
    Melo’s attitude on the court is terrible.When Lin was running the show, people were selfless and there was a sense of joy.Of course they were winning too and inspired by Lin, but they were unselfish players.Melo always talked about needing to get his touches and usually doesn’t make the extra pass.Teammates obv don’t have a problem with this because hey it’s Melo guy, perennial ALL-STAR, so they’re ok with him taking the shots and missing.There isn’t a lot of joy with that kind of playmaking.

    This is laughable. Their was a sense of joy because they were winning. If you think somehow that Melo is taking Lin out of the game, given what we’ve seen when Lin drives, there’s really no sense in moving forward in this discussion.

    When Lin is going in PNR Melo’s job is to primarily maintain the spacing on the floor. You’ll notice that defenses don’t help on Melo’s guy.

    This is just a matter of nor understanding the game and blind hatred for Melo. The guy needs to get out of town because I don’t care what he does it will never change.

  179. Gamecockerbocker: Like I said before… when you catch the ball outside the three-point line (like Jorts did) and your man (Duncan) can defend you from the paint, your teammates are basically playing offense 4-on-5

    Right, it’s a lose lose. He has to make a higher percentage of unguarded shots or he’s a huge liability on offense.

  180. thailandvc:
    All we ask for is effort. He can be decent but it looks like hes saving his energy for offense.

    We don’t need him to dominate on offense. Effort on D + play within a proven system. that’s it.

    If the threshold for Melo is that he needs to be a defensive impact player, cleaning up all of the other issues on the floor by leaving his man and rotating into the penetration or blocking out the bigs man, you’re not going to consistently get that.

  181. But seriously… If Stat continues down this shit covered path he’s crawling through, Jeffries should get some consideration to start at PF.

  182. Would anyone else be surprised if Ersan Ilyasova goes for 40 and 20 against Stat on Friday?

  183. NattyIce: I’ll give you this much.He know his offense.That stat you cite is deceiving.Those points and slightly above 50% shooting percentage comes at the expense everyone else’s game.

    We all know Melo is a scorer.He’s the most talented of the Knicks by far.But, it comes at a heavy cost, and so long as we focus on the positive (27 on 24 shots) and ignore the negatives (2 boards, 3 assists), we’ll be consigned to mediocrity.Like, how the hell does he have only 2 boards when you’re athletic as he is and playing the 3/4 for 35+ minutes.That’s hustle, or more precisely, a lack thereof.

    HE could have helped down a low more and gotten loose balls but to me was around the 3pt line a lot tonight — he played no four at all.

    Melo’s never been a below average rebounder. I’d love to look at each individual play with anyone makes the claim that he was the issue with rebounding.

    The analysis of the offense is hysterical. Whenever Melo got the ball on the wing he was getting doubled often making the extra pass to the weakside for good opportunities. He also had numerous hockey assists off penetration.

    It was far more efficient than the Lin PNR based offense.

  184. ruruland: Honestly, I’m thinking about going somewhere else because there’s a pathological need to talk about Melo regardless of what else is going on.

    He certainly deserves a lot of criticism for how he played up to this point, but that has nothing to do with why the Knicks were atrocious tonight.

    I agree the the focus on Melo on Knicks boards is pathological. Melo is here to stay, and we should all know by now what to expect from him and what not to, so anyone being disappointed is simply praying for him to be a player he is not instead of seeing and accepting who and what he is. (And like you said, there are larger problems with the team that aren’t about Melo, in particular poor defense.) Knicks fans, having suffered so much psychic pain, need to vent that yuck somewhere, and that usually means abusing their own players. It’s not right, but it’s understandable. Bc we fucking care, but it’s a dysfunctional kind of love.

  185. fuk it i’ll lower my expectation.

    i dont even mind if he dominates the ball if he can do it intelligently. he catches the ball a) between the legs a couple time shoot with 20 sec left => long rebound fastbreak b) jab step, pump fake shoots 20 sec left. he does this with duncan on the bench.

    ruruland: If the threshold for Melo is that he needs to be a defensive impact player, cleaning up all of the other issues on the floor by leaving his man and rotating into the penetration or blocking out the bigs man, you’re not going to consistently get that.

  186. Look, I have no problem with Melo when he is playing well. I couldn’t care less if he has 0 or 50 points as long as the Knicks can win and perform up to their capabilities. The thing is, with Melo and Amar’e, the Knicks will never be able to get over the hump and become a really good team, let alone a great one. After this year is over, and if no major progress has made (winning or coming close in a playoff series) I really think they need to consider trying something new with the roster. They have a deep team, with an array of versatile players surrounding Melo and Amar’e and they simply cannot get the job done. This is unacceptable and I don’t see how the GM will just wait to see what is going to happen with this team.

  187. Gamecockerbocker:
    But seriously… If Stat continues down this shit covered path he’s crawling through, Jeffries should get some consideration to start at PF.

    Yes… please…

  188. Just can’t digest how done Amare looks. Can’t believe there was talk that he outclassed Bosh last year as the best big man signing. Hate to say it, but Bosh looks like the better long-term player.

  189. Team defensive rankings with Melo pre-Knicks:

    16th, 8th, 6th, 9th, 8th, 6th, 9th

    Team defensive ranking Amar’e pre-Melo:

    19th, 20th, 19th, 16th, 17th, 25th, 19th .

  190. Both Melo and Amar’e have played alongside good defenders.

    Melo had Kenyon and to a much lesser extent Camby

    Both played with poor defensive guards. Melo: Iverson, Miller and Billups

    Suns: Nash.

  191. Gamecockerbocker: 19th, 16th, 17th

    Then against Sixers, Thaddeus Young will have 28 points and 14 rebounds in 25 minutes of play. Basically any [Power Forward] of the opposing team will average 25 points 13 rebounds when the Knicks play them.

  192. Will the Thrill: ying something new with the roster. They have a deep team, with an array of versatile players surrounding Melo and Amar’e and they simply cannot get the job done. This is unacceptable and I

    Who the fuck is going to take Amare or Melo with that kind of contract? Especially Amare? If Lakers want to give away Pau for Amare I will utterly shit my pants.

  193. I didn’t watch the game so it’s hard to say, but from looking at the star sheet, if anyone had a problem with Melo’s game it’s because they don’t like Melo. Jeremy Lin and Stat are getting lit up every game, but somehow Melo is the bad defender because he doesn’t catch up to their open man super quickly. Seriously, more than one person predicted that Parker was going to destroy the Knicks, and it obviously happened. When a simple 1-4 high pick and roll means death for your defense, you’re going to have issues completely unrelated to your wing player. I still haven’t seen a single team design their offense around attacking Melo, although I have seen more than one team abuse the Knick’s switching defense by making sure their best player isn’t guarded by Melo (Boston made the conscious choice to make sure Paul Pierce was guarded by Shumpert and JR instead of Melo, then they ran their entire offense around forcing that switch)

  194. billups is a good defender. and dre is not bad.

    what does “Amar’e pre-Melo” mead”?

  195. I give D’Antoni another 12 games or so. I just don’t think he can optimize Melo in his system and frankly, Stat is too slow now to be a pf in his system.

    I actually like and support D’Antoni and I also believe that Melo is a top 15-20 talent but they are like a square peg and a round hole.

    We should part ways with Mike and trade Lin, Amare, Shump and Chandler for Howard, Turkoglu and Nelson and set up a half court team with Davis, Smith, Melo, Jeffries and Howard with Fields, Nelson, Turk, Harrelson and Novak off the bench. Then you upgrade next year at spots.

  196. Amar’e of course had Marion, some solid bench defenders, And Shaq’s always had a tremendous positive impact on the defensive end of the floor.

    Amar’e is that bad.

    Even in a poor defensive culture, Melo was passable. In a good defensive culture, Melo was good (’08 and ’09 pre Karl cancer).

  197. TheXman: Then against Sixers, Thaddeus Young will have 28 points and 14 rebounds in 25 minutes of play.Basically any [Power Forward] of the opposing team will average 25 points 13 rebounds when the Knicks play them.

    It’s pretty hard to win when you pretty much know at least one player is going to do that against you every single night. Last year, for the most part, STAT’s offense could offset those opposing numbers. This year, though, not so much…

  198. thailandvc:
    billups is a good defender. and dre is not bad.

    what does “Amar’e pre-Melo” mead”?

    Amar’e on the Suns is what I meant.

  199. Had very low expectations for the Knicks winning this one…so not too perturbed. We clearly missed Chandler tonight. Expectations need to be ratcheted down for this team. Hopefully we can avoid the Miami Heat in the first round (which means either the 8th, 7th or 6th seed) and then see what happens from there. Any hope of passing Orlando, Atlanta and Philly are simply pipe dreams. Hopefully Chandler plays (effectively) versus the Bucks and Jennings doesn’t go off for 30.

  200. Juany8:
    I didn’t watch the game so it’s hard to say, but from looking at the star sheet, if anyone had a problem with Melo’s game it’s because they don’t like Melo. Jeremy Lin and Stat are getting lit up every game, but somehow Melo is the bad defender because he doesn’t catch up to their open man super quickly. Seriously, more than one person predicted that Parker was going to destroy the Knicks, and it obviously happened. When a simple 1-4 high pick and roll means death for your defense, you’re going to have issues completely unrelated to your wing player. I still haven’t seen a single team design their offense around attacking Melo, although I have seen more than one team abuse the Knick’s switching defense by making sure their best player isn’t guarded by Melo (Boston made the conscious choice to make sure Paul Pierce was guarded by Shumpert and JR instead of Melo, then they ran their entire offense around forcing that switch)

    That’s right , Juany. You rarely see teams getting Melo in the PNR switch so that he’s the one who is guarding the ball. They switch with Melo so he isn’t guarding the ball.

    Melo’s OPP PER has always been above average, and I believe Synergy stats support that he’s a good man defender.

    That’s always been his reputation as well. He’s not a great team defender or multiple effort rotater, but few guys are.

    Tonight, Amar’e may have had the worst defensive performance I’ve ever seen. I’d guess somewhere around 10 offensive boards were gathered by his man, and the scoring efficiency in plays he was involved in surely was off the charts.

  201. thailandvc:
    billups is a good defender. and dre is not bad.

    what does “Amar’e pre-Melo” mead”?

    Billups being a good defender in Denver is quite the misnomer. He was very good in his prime, but had logged a lot of miles and lost a step by the time Denver acquired him.

    I mean, giving how efficient he was as a scorer in Detroit, why do you think Dumars traded him?

    He was very slow by the time he came to Denver. But he was a smart and tough-minded team defender, and allows the Nuggets to instill a defensive culture.

    He was often the weak link defensively, and the guy opposing teams with somewhat quick guards would target.

  202. ess-dog:
    I give D’Antoni another 12 games or so.I just don’t think he can optimize Melo in his system and frankly, Stat is too slow now to be a pf in his system.

    I actually like and support D’Antoni and I also believe that Melo is a top 15-20 talent but they are like a square peg and a round hole.

    We should part ways with Mike and trade Lin, Amare, Shump and Chandler for Howard, Turkoglu and Nelson and set up a half court team with Davis, Smith, Melo, Jeffries and Howard with Fields, Nelson, Turk, Harrelson and Novak off the bench.Then you upgrade next year at spots.

    Melo can function well in 4-out plays, but if that’s all you can run, and you don’t even try to get him looks on the low post, then he is being underutilized.

    It’s pretty simple set of screens to get him down there.

    It’s possible MDA is totally unwilling to diversify his offense with other things.

  203. ess-dog:
    I give D’Antoni another 12 games or so.I just don’t think he can optimize Melo in his system and frankly, Stat is too slow now to be a pf in his system.

    I actually like and support D’Antoni and I also believe that Melo is a top 15-20 talent but they are like a square peg and a round hole.

    We should part ways with Mike and trade Lin, Amare, Shump and Chandler for Howard, Turkoglu and Nelson and set up a half court team with Davis, Smith, Melo, Jeffries and Howard with Fields, Nelson, Turk, Harrelson and Novak off the bench.Then you upgrade next year at spots.

    Lol Magic aren’t doing that trade, also Knicks aren’t trading Lin, he’s a goldmine for them.

  204. Perhaps Joe Dumars = Bad GM?

    I think it’s a little crazy to give Melo any credit for that Nuggets defense. Guys like Camby, Martin, and Birdman provided the D.

    You could give him credit for bringing the scoring that allowed those guys to be out on the court. That’s the tack I would suggest you take, that’s what I call the Iverson argument.

  205. outoftowner:
    On the bright side, I like how Jorts looks, defensively and on the glass.

    You’re not worth being on the floor though, when your man can defend you from the paint when you have the ball behind the three point line… unless you’re Dwight Howard or something. And Duncan was working Jorts with the spin move in the first half.

  206. thailandvc:
    fuk it i’ll lower my expectation.

    i dont even mind if he dominates the ball if he can do it intelligently. he catches the ball a) between the legs a couple time shoot with 20 sec left => long rebound fastbreak b) jab step, pump fake shoots 20 sec left. he does this with duncan on the bench.

    The Spurs played Melo how they’ve always played Melo, zoning a big to his when he has the ball on the wing.

    That’s great for an offense if you have guys on the weakside who can take advantage, either making the open shot, or beating the rotation to play 5-4 with a guy driving.

    Melo created a lot of good shots on the weakside tonight (though they rarely resulted in assists, just as Howard creates a ton of shots and doesn’t get assists) just as he did throughout his career in Denver (which is why Denver, one of the better offensive teams in the league with Melo, was 4-7 pts better with him on the floor despite just above average shooting).

    Given how the 4-out PNR was not working again tonight, tough jumpers cross-court passes was what Melo could get (and of course the refusal to run plays to get Melo on the box).

  207. I haven’t busted on Melo at all this year but he was invisible on defense tonight. If man defense is your criteria the only difference between Amar’e and Melo defensively is that as a four Amar’e gets put in screen and rolls far more and it absolutely horrible at it. Amar’e’s defensive synergy numbers (which really just give you an idea of man defense) are better than Melo’s this year- Nobody singles him out in isolation or looks to post him up- they try to get him switched onto a guard where he’s just terrible. You’d think maybe Melo might cheat a few steps off Jefferson or Green and try to put himself in a position where he’d at least have a chance to rotate inside but he didn’t and pretty much never does. He’s not the reason the defense was so awful- neither Lin nor Shumpert could stay in front of Parker and Amar’e was useless as a helper. But Melo has at least try to make an adjustment.

  208. Owen:
    Perhaps Joe Dumars = Bad GM?

    I think it’s a little crazy to give Melo any credit for that Nuggets defense. Guys like Camby, Martin, and Birdman provided the D.

    You could give him credit for bringing the scoring that allowed those guys to be out on the court. That’s the tack I would suggest you take, that’s what I call the Iverson argument.

    I think he’s just saying: If Melo was this horrible, putrid, worthless defender everyone makes him out to be, those Denver teams would’ve been a lot worse on defense than they were…

  209. nicos:
    If man defense is your criteria the only difference between Amar’e and Melo defensively is that as a four Amar’e gets put in screen and rolls far more and it absolutely horrible at it.Amar’e’s defensive synergy numbers (which really just give you an idea of man defense) are better than Melo’s this year- Nobody singles him out in isolation or looks to post him up- they try to get him switched onto a guard where he’s just terrible.

    Idk… Splitter and Blair were eating STAT alive in the post whenver they got the chance.

  210. Owen:
    Perhaps Joe Dumars = Bad GM?

    I think it’s a little crazy to give Melo any credit for that Nuggets defense. Guys like Camby, Martin, and Birdman provided the D.

    You could give him credit for bringing the scoring that allowed those guys to be out on the court. That’s the tack I would suggest you take, that’s what I call the Iverson argument.

    That, of course is true, but Billups had also lost a couple of steps defensively. That’s obvious all over statistically.

    C’mon man. Clearly I’m not attributing Denver’s defense play to Melo. They had some good defensive pieces around him (most of them coming off the bench).

    What I’m saying is that he wasn’t a liability. While he wasn’t great in team defensive concepts, he made up for it with good man defense.

    Overal, he was a net zero defender, some years better than that.

    (Denver still has Bird, Lawson has taken over for Billups, and apparently the Nuggs upgraded other positions like SF, yet they are worse than they ever were with Melo defensively).

    Frankly, Amar’e is so bad that I don’t think a team like the Heat could be good defensively with him on the floor.

    Melo isn’t anywhere near that.

  211. The frustration with Melo is not that he is a horrible one-on-one defender. He is a poor help defender and given his physical gifts (size, footwork, intelligence) he should be a better team defender. The main issue is inconsistent effort. Amare is pure and simply not an intelligent defender…so while I get frustrated by his ineptitude – my expectations for him are a bit lower…he often ‘tries hard’ but just makes boneheaded defensive plays…why coaching hasn’t made him better…I don’t know

    Gamecockerbocker: I think he’s just saying: If Melo was this horrible, putrid, worthless defender everyone makes him out to be, those Denver teams would’ve been a lot worse on defense than they were…

  212. nicos:
    I haven’t busted on Melo at all this year but he was invisible on defense tonight.If man defense is your criteria the only difference between Amar’e and Melo defensively is that as a four Amar’e gets put in screen and rolls far more and it absolutely horrible at it.Amar’e’s defensive synergy numbers (which really just give you an idea of man defense) are better than Melo’s this year- Nobody singles him out in isolation or looks to post him up- they try to get him switched onto a guard where he’s just terrible.You’d think maybe Melo might cheat a few steps off Jefferson or Green and try to put himself in a position where he’d at least have a chance to rotate inside but he didn’t and pretty much never does.He’s not the reason the defense was so awful- neither Lin nor Shumpert could stay in front of Parker and Amar’e was useless as a helper.But Melo has at least try to make an adjustment.

    But see, when you’re asking your sf to get caught in the lane to help on penetration you’re simply going to give up high percentage jumpers to guys who’ve shot extremely well this year.

    It’s not as though Melo was guarding poor shooters ( the kind the Knicks frequently put on the floor)

    If Melo makes those rotations he’s going to get railed for giving up the open shots.

    There are no answers when the penetration is that deep, unless you have freak speed athletes that can help and still close — even those guys are out of position a lot after penetration.

    You simply can’t be a good defensive team when you give it up like that.

  213. Also the reason Amar’e’s men grabbed so many offensive rebounds is because Amar’e was hardly ever actually guarding his man- he was busy playing his admittedly absolutely pathetic help defense on Parker or Manu. It’d been nice if Melo at least tried to rotate inside to help rebound but I guess he figured Lin could keep Dejuan Blair off of the boards.

  214. johnlocke:
    The frustration with Melo is not that he is a horrible one-on-one defender. He is a poor help defender and given his physical gifts (size, footwork, intelligence) he should be a better team defender. The main issue is inconsistent effort.Amare is pure and simply not an intelligent defender…so while I get frustrated by his ineptitude – my expectations for him are a bit lower…he often ‘tries hard’ but just makes boneheaded defensive plays…why coaching hasn’t made him better…I don’t know

    To me, I think that when you have the massive holes at the two most important defensive positions– pg and PF—there’s no way to build trust on the defensive end.

    Guys like Melo are trying to take care of their guy. Only Chandler is capable of helping out penetration and still getting back to his man (considering the position he plays, he couldn’t do that anywhere else on the floor).

  215. ruruland:

    Frankly, Amar’e is so bad that I don’t think a team like the Heat could be good defensively with him on the floor.

    Melo isn’t anywhere near that.

    Melo is a replacement-quality NBA defender… which is a lot better than Amare.

    It sucks because Amare seems like a great guy and leader and all that. But I just hate watching him play. And I don’t think its lack of effort. He just doesn’t know how to play defense. He’s always in the wrong place.

    I did like that D’Antoni sat him the last 3 minutes, not sure if that meant anything or not.

  216. johnlocke:
    The frustration with Melo is not that he is a horrible one-on-one defender. He is a poor help defender and given his physical gifts (size, footwork, intelligence) he should be a better team defender. The main issue is inconsistent effort.Amare is pure and simply not an intelligent defender…so while I get frustrated by his ineptitude – my expectations for him are a bit lower…he often ‘tries hard’ but just makes boneheaded defensive plays…why coaching hasn’t made him better…I don’t know

    On the “Amare trying hard on defense” thing… I’ve watched him stand flat footed in the middle of the paint without so much as putting a hand up while opposing guards slash to the rim to believe that he actually tries on defense. I can’t defend Melo for not helping more on PnR’s, but the fact is Melo is not the problem on defense. If our Jeffries started over STAT the PnR defense would be SOOOOOO much better. All he has to do to figure out how to play the PnR is watch what other teams do to Lin and Chandler… The opposing big literally forces Lin almost to half court or out of bounds on the sideline, then sprints to the paint to get back on Chandler while the PG gets back on Lin. Stat barely steps over the three point line when defending the PnR… I mean, why even bother?

  217. ruruland: But see, when you’re asking your sf to get caught in the lane to help on penetration you’re simply going to give up high percentage jumpers to guys who’ve shot extremely well this year.

    It’s not as though Melo was guarding poor shooters ( the kind the Knicks frequently put on the floor)

    If Melo makes those rotations he’s going to get railed for giving up the open shots.

    There are no answers when the penetration is that deep, unless you have freak speed athletes that can help and still close — even those guys are out of position a lot after penetration.

    You simply can’t be a good defensive team when you give it up like that.

    They were hitting layup after layup- cheat in three steps and make Jefferson or Danny Green shoot over the top. Who cares if you’re going to get railed on- that’s the right play when it’s clear that not doing so is going to lead to wide open layups. I’m not saying Melo was the main problem tonight- obviously Amar’e was terrible and Lin/Shumpert not too far behind. But a lot of that stuff was happening out beyond the foul line and no one- not Melo or Novak or Fields, ever managed to pinch in at all- I’d let Gary Neal shoot open threes all night if the alternative is a wide open layup. Poor coaching and poor effort by everyone.

  218. nicos:
    I haven’t busted on Melo at all this year but he was invisible on defense tonight.If man defense is your criteria the only difference between Amar’e and Melo defensively is that as a four Amar’e gets put in screen and rolls far more and it absolutely horrible at it.Amar’e’s defensive synergy numbers (which really just give you an idea of man defense) are better than Melo’s this year- Nobody singles him out in isolation or looks to post him up- they try to get him switched onto a guard where he’s just terrible.You’d think maybe Melo might cheat a few steps off Jefferson or Green and try to put himself in a position where he’d at least have a chance to rotate inside but he didn’t and pretty much never does.He’s not the reason the defense was so awful- neither Lin nor Shumpert could stay in front of Parker and Amar’e was useless as a helper.But Melo has at least try to make an adjustment.

    Melo’s opponents offensively are well below league average in PER at 11.7, lowest among the starters (and a little below where it typically was historically in Denver).

    Lin’s OPP PER is an astonishing 18.1 and rising, while Amar’e is 15.5, worst among other starters. Not coincidentally, Amar’e Opp PER was by far the worst on the Knicks last year, and over a four year period was the worst mark on the Suns.

  219. nicos: They were hitting layup after layup- cheat in three steps and make Jefferson or Danny Green shoot over the top.Who cares if you’re going to get railed on- that’s the right play when it’s clear that not doing so is going to lead to wide open layups.I’m not saying Melo was the main problem tonight- obviously Amar’e was terrible and Lin/Shumpert not too far behind.But a lot of that stuff was happening out beyond the foul line and no one- not Melo or Novak or Fields, ever managed to pinch in at all- I’d let Gary Neal shoot open threes all night if the alternative is a wide open layup.Poor coaching and poor effort by everyone.

    It’s really pick your poison, and a wide open 3 from a really good 3pt shooter is the best shot in basketball. If the Spurs had average shooters I might be with you 100%.

    When Melo’s played in defensive cultures where guys had each others back, and weren’t beaten every time on the floor, he’d make that play.

    But right now the target is one Melo’s back in terms of criticism. hard to blame a guy wanting to keep the man he’s guarding in check.

    I’m with you though on the concept. it’s very hard to build that defensive trust in this kind of situation, however.

  220. Lin seriously needs to stop worrying about turning the ball over or whatever it is he’s doing that makes him pick up his dribble at the free throw line or jack up early 3’s and get back to pounding the lane. I can deal with turnovers in the paint if he’s creating for himself and others.

  221. Gamecockerbocker: On the “Amare trying hard on defense” thing… I’ve watched him stand flat footed in the middle of the paint without so much as putting a hand up while opposing guards slash to the rim to believe that he actually tries on defense. I can’t defend Melo for not helping more on PnR’s, but the fact is Melo is not the problem on defense. If our Jeffries started over STAT the PnR defense would be SOOOOOO much better. All he has to do to figure out how to play the PnR is watch what other teams do to Lin and Chandler… The opposing big literally forces Lin almost to half court or out of bounds on the sideline, then sprints to the paint to get back on Chandler while the PG gets back on Lin. Stat barely steps over the three point line when defending the PnR… I mean, why even bother?

    With Amar’e it’s poor everything: effort, lateral movement, awareness, physicality, fundamentals.

    He is literally atrocious in every facet of the game on defense, sans the occasional athletic shot block.

    It’s really kind of sad because I don’t think Amar’e understands how bad he is.

  222. You’d think we could do a better job on defending the PNR considering all of our opponents are showing us how to do it every night.

  223. New Guy:
    You’d think we could do a better job on defending the PNR considering all of our opponents are showing us how to do it every night.

    Thank you!

  224. nicos: They were hitting layup after layup- cheat in three steps and make Jefferson or Danny Green shoot over the top.Who cares if you’re going to get railed on- that’s the right play when it’s clear that not doing so is going to lead to wide open layups.I’m not saying Melo was the main problem tonight- obviously Amar’e was terrible and Lin/Shumpert not too far behind.But a lot of that stuff was happening out beyond the foul line and no one- not Melo or Novak or Fields, ever managed to pinch in at all- I’d let Gary Neal shoot open threes all night if the alternative is a wide open layup.Poor coaching and poor effort by everyone.

    Yeah, this is the defense we used to see all the time against us pre-Melo. It’s not a rare thing, but who knows if Melo was instructed to do so or not.

    @ruru So if the problem is defense, and the most you could get for STAT is a salary dump, and Lin is untradeable for financial reasons, and unless we improve the defense, we will continue to be an average team, and Stoudemire is ineffective off the ball, that leads me to two questions:

    1) How do we improve the defense?

    2) How do we make Stoudemire the primary option on offense?

    The answer to number one has to be trading Melo since he’s the only guy with the kind of value to bring in an impact defender at the SF position — someone like Josh Smith or Nicolas Batum.

    The answer to number two has to be either trading Melo or moving him off the ball.

  225. Gamecockerbocker:
    Lin seriously needs to stop worrying about turning the ball over or whatever it is he’s doing that makes him pick up his dribble at the free throw line or jack up early 3?s and get back to pounding the lane. I can deal with turnovers in the paint if he’s creating for himself and others.

    When I re-watch the game I will look to see what I think it’s about.

    They were giving him those looks. I’m not sure if it was the defensive tactics, lack of aggressiveness, or physical limitation.

  226. See, I never saw anything about the Knick defense being so bad when they were struggling just after acquiring JR, Baron, and when Melo + Amare came back. All that was on here was how much potential they had and how good we were going to be. Now that it seems like it isn’t going to work out, the focus has switched to defense like we have suddenly gotten way, way worse at defense.

  227. max fisher-cohen: Yeah, this is the defense we used to see all the time against us pre-Melo. It’s not a rare thing, but who knows if Melo was instructed to do so or not.

    @ruru So if the problem is defense, and the most you could get for STAT is a salary dump, and Lin is untradeable for financial reasons, and unless we improve the defense, we will continue to be an average team, and Stoudemire is ineffective off the ball, that leads me to two questions:

    1) How do we improve the defense?

    2) How do we make Stoudemire the primary option on offense?

    The answer to number one has to be trading Melo since he’s the only guy with the kind of value to bring in an impact defender at the SF position — someone like Josh Smith or Nicolas Batum.

    The answer to number two has to be either trading Melo or moving him off the ball.

    First, my question to you would be why you would trade the superior asset to accommodate the inferior one?

    If that’s literally the only way you can build your team, then frankly, you’re screwed no matter how you slice it.

    You can’t win anything with a defensive player that bad unless you’ve got Steve Nash running the show, and that ain’t Lin.

  228. ruruland: Melo’s opponents offensively are well below league average in PER at 11.7, lowest among the starters (and a little below where it typically was historically in Denver).

    Lin’s OPP PER is an astonishing 18.1 and rising, while Amar’e is 15.5, worst among other starters. Not coincidentally, Amar’e Opp PER was by far the worst on the Knicks last year, and over a four year period was the worst mark on the Suns.

    League average PER for power forwards is more than 2 points higher than small forwards this season so if you’re going by PER the difference isn’t that much. If you go by synergy there’s a similar difference in the other direction. My only point is that you want to judge Melo based solely on his man defense which is okay, but you claim Amar’e is the worst defender in the league when his man defense is certainly in the same ballpark as Melo’s. Keep Amar’e out of screen and rolls- which they’ve been able to do by having Chandler guard whichever big is the more active screener- and he’s okay defensively. That’s not to say he’s a good defender- being as poor as he is in the pnr is a huge flaw for a four- just don’t let Melo off the hook for being an invisible help defender and crucify Amar’e for the same thing.

  229. Will the Thrill:
    See, I never saw anything about the Knick defense being so bad when they were struggling just after acquiring JR, Baron, and when Melo + Amare came back.All that was on here was how much potential they had and how good we were going to be.Now that it seems like it isn’t going to work out, the focus has switched to defense like we have suddenly gotten way, way worse at defense.

    Somehow we’re still 6th in defensive rating (basketball-reference.com) so… slowly becoming horrible on defense is a little bit worrisome.

  230. max fisher-cohen: Yeah, this is the defense we used to see all the time against us pre-Melo. It’s not a rare thing, but who knows if Melo was instructed to do so or not.

    @ruru So if the problem is defense, and the most you could get for STAT is a salary dump, and Lin is untradeable for financial reasons, and unless we improve the defense, we will continue to be an average team, and Stoudemire is ineffective off the ball, that leads me to two questions:

    1) How do we improve the defense?

    2) How do we make Stoudemire the primary option on offense?

    The answer to number one has to be trading Melo since he’s the only guy with the kind of value to bring in an impact defender at the SF position — someone like Josh Smith or Nicolas Batum.

    The answer to number two has to be either trading Melo or moving him off the ball.

    The Knicks should jump all over the opportunity for a salary dump with AMar’e.

    You get a sold defender, rebounder who can hit an open mid-range shot in the next two years, this team gets a lot better.

    Melo can play off the ball, but you don’t pay anyone 20 million dollars to play off the ball all game.

  231. Wtf, were you not the person that was saying the Knicks would go on a huge run later in the season? Did Amar’e suddenly get bad at defense? Or did you assume that he would improve his defense greatly during this so-called run?

    ruruland: First, my question to you would be why you would trade the superior asset to accommodate the inferior one?

    If that’s literally the only way you can build your team, then frankly, you’re screwed no matter how you slice it.

    You can’t win anything with a defensive player that bad unless you’ve got Steve Nash running the show, and that ain’t Lin.

  232. nicos: League average PER for power forwards is more than 2 points higher than small forwards this season so if you’re going by PER the difference isn’t that much.If you go by synergy there’s a similar difference in the other direction.My only point is that you want to judge Melo based solely on his man defense which is okay, but you claim Amar’e is the worst defender in the league when his man defense is certainly in the same ballpark as Melo’s.Keep Amar’e out of screen and rolls- which they’ve been able to do by having Chandler guard whichever big is the more active screener- and he’s okay defensively.That’s not to say he’s a good defender- being as poor as he is in the pnr is a huge flaw for a four- just don’t let Melo off the hook for being an invisible help defender and crucify Amar’e for the same thing.

    Fair enough to a point, but there’s a huge difference between the kind of help situations a PF gets in and the ones a SF gets in. One is far more important to the interior of the defense.

  233. @ruru, I’m just looking at realistic options to improve the team. If you could trade Stoudemire for a decent two-way four like , I’d be all for that. I even advocated for it last season, but the time when Stoudemire had that sort of value seems to be in the past.

  234. Will the Thrill:
    Wtf, were you not the person that was saying the Knicks would go on a huge run later in the season? Did Amar’e suddenly get bad at defense? Or did you assume that he would improve his defense greatly during this so-called run?

    I think we all hoped (including Amare himself, hence the “stay tuned” comment) that he would get his Athleticism back and be a threat offensively which used to kind-of-sort-of make up for his defensive ineptitude.

  235. oops… a decent two-way four like Millsap or Josh Smith or even (ironic if you read the article) Thaddeus Young.

  236. Will the Thrill:
    Wtf, were you not the person that was saying the Knicks would go on a huge run later in the season? Did Amar’e suddenly get bad at defense? Or did you assume that he would improve his defense greatly during this so-called run?

    Look, i still think they can make a big run. Chandler and Jeffries cover a lot of holes defensively. They should have beaten the Celtics, they ran into two really good teams on a road b2b and played poorly.

    I still see huge potential, but there are too many dynamics to talk about that lead to that situation. I still feel that for as bad as Amar’e and Lin are on defense, you can still be good enough to outscore most teams.

    The offense hasn’t clicked yet.

    Honestly, I think we’re either at the bottom point or near it for the season (with everyone back).

    I get the impatience, but I do think it will get better, with the potential to get a lot better.

    It’s been too long since Knicks fans saw a big turnaround. As a Nuggets fans, I’ve seen more than a couple during the same season.

    I still believe the dynamics are in place for that to happen.

  237. I don’t think our defense is good, but I also don’t think it is as bad as it was today (obviously because our best defensive player was out). I think the most alarming thing about this team is the inability to score consistently, whatsoever. There is no constants with this team on the offensive end, you never know who, where, when, or why anyone on our team is getting the points and our players seem to be constantly underperforming.

    Gamecockerbocker: Somehow we’re still 6th in defensive rating (basketball-reference.com) so… slowly becoming horrible on defense is a little bit worrisome.

  238. Will the Thrill:
    I don’t think our defense is good, but I also don’t think it is as bad as it was today (obviously because our best defensive player was out).I think the most alarming thing about this team is the inability to score consistently, whatsoever.There is no constants with this team on the offensive end, you never know who, where, when, or why anyone on our team is getting the points and our players seem to be constantly underperforming.

    agreed.

  239. max fisher-cohen:
    oops… a decent two-way four like Millsap or Josh Smith or even (ironic if you read the article) Thaddeus Young.

    That would be amazing because those guys are really good players.

    But, to me, trading Melo 60 games into his tenure is completely unrealistic.

    I would be shocked if anything happened right now, and frankly, it shouldn’t, even for as bad as the last two games have been.

  240. A question for ruruland, juany8, gamecockerbocker and other Carmelo apologists: What does his performance, aesthetically pleasing as it may be, yield in terms of playoff wins? What is a good basis for comparison among past NBA players for Melo’s ceiling (since we can all agree he is the most skilled player and shoulders the biggest role)? As Knick fans, we all want to win more than we want to criticize the a precocious Josh Harrellson for not having a great night against one of the greatest PFs of all time. We’d rather not send up Shumpert, Lin and Fields, all very inexperienced in terms of playoff appearances and NBA game time. We have to look to Carmelo and STAT for answers because they have “the numbers” to prove they’re worth this exorbitant market rate…the “franchise” golden chips. So what does a player of Carmelo’s exact statistical output create in the playoffs? Answer that and I think you’ll have the forum’s open eyes and ears.

  241. Yeah, I guess it’s just frustrating seeing this happen, no matter who is on the team. It really seems like they could go out and get Howard somehow, and they would still figure out a way to lose (not having a point guard, not having shooters, etc.). I admit that I have nearly lost all faith in this team, unless Lin figures out how to play like he was during his run. Amar’e and Melo performing at an average rate wouldn’t hurt either I guess.

    ruruland: Look, i still think they can make a big run. Chandler and Jeffries cover a lot of holes defensively. They should have beaten the Celtics, they ran into two really good teams on a road b2b and played poorly.

    I still see huge potential, but there are too many dynamics to talk about that lead to that situation. I still feel that for as bad as Amar’e and Lin are on defense, you can still be good enough to outscore most teams.

    The offense hasn’t clicked yet.

    Honestly, I think we’re either at the bottom point or near it for the season (with everyone back).

    I get the impatience, but I do think it will get better, with the potential to get a lot better.

    It’s been too long since Knicks fans saw a big turnaround. As a Nuggets fans, I’ve seen more than a couple during the same season.

    I still believe the dynamics are in place for that to happen.

  242. drewbreez:
    A question for ruruland, juany8, gamecockerbocker and other Carmelo apologists: What does his performance, aesthetically pleasing as it may be, yield in terms of playoff wins? What is a good basis for comparison among past NBA players for Melo’s ceiling (since we can all agree he is the most skilled player and shoulders the biggest role)? As Knick fans, we all want to win more than we want to criticize the a precocious Josh Harrellson for not having a great night against one of the greatest PFs of all time. We’d rather not send up Shumpert, Lin and Fields, all very inexperienced in terms of playoff appearances and NBA game time. We have to look to Carmelo and STAT for answers because they have “the numbers” to prove they’re worth this exorbitant market rate…the “franchise” golden chips. So what does a player of Carmelo’s exact statistical output create in the playoffs? Answer that and I think you’ll have theforum’s open eyes and ears.

    Forget being a Melo apologist… I’m just asking who looked better than him tonight? It was a horrible game all around and Melo doesn’t deserve all the blame.

  243. Will the Thrill:
    I don’t think our defense is good, but I also don’t think it is as bad as it was today (obviously because our best defensive player was out).I think the most alarming thing about this team is the inability to score consistently, whatsoever.There is no constants with this team on the offensive end, you never know who, where, when, or why anyone on our team is getting the points and our players seem to be constantly underperforming.

    Look, has the team played poorly the last 496 minutes? Yes, without a doubt.

    Have there been red flags the last 3 games? Of course.

    Bottom line, however, is that this team just lost to the defending NBA champs coming off a loss at home (and after a previous defeat, sharps know about how the revenge factor works in the NBA)

    and then lost on a b2b without its two best defensive players to a team that a) was coming off a home loss (“We were more into this game. We knew that we needed it,” Ginobili said. “We lost two out of three at home, and this game was an important one. We didn’t want to let it get away.”

    b) the 6th best offensive team (presumably higher with Manu) team in the NBA

    c) a team that’s 26-12 despite playing most of the season without its second best player.

  244. ruruland: Fair enough to a point, but there’s a huge difference between the kind of help situations a PF gets in and the ones a SF gets in. One is far more important to the interior of the defense.

    Agreed, but watch a good defensive three- Deng, LBJ, Gerald Wallace, Battier, Artest etc… Those guys are constantly pinching and recovering and play a huge role in their team’s defense. Melo does not, at all. It’s certainly subtler but wings have a huge impact on team defense too. His transition defense is a perfect example, not only is he often late getting back but he more often than not just tries to find his man rather trying to stop the ball first and then find his man. There was a play against the Hawks where Amar’e was under the basket and Josh Smith leaked out- Melo jogged back with Marvin Williams and just pointed to Smith despite the fact there was no one actually back besides him who could have possibly picked him up. Tonight, just playing his man was clearly not going to be enough and as far as I could see he made no real effort to make an adjustment- Amar’e gets a F- but Melo was probably a D+ at best.

  245. So you’re not a Carmelo apologist, yet when asked what his statistical output has yielded for his teams in terms of playoff wins during his tenure as an NBA player, you point to how well he played in a loss? His TS%? His OPP PER?

    Methinks a definition of “apologist” may be in order.

  246. The Knicks have had roughly 2 wins that I can remember against good teams this year. They are going to need to beat good teams to be a good team, no matter how much the other team “wants it”. If we can’t play with the Mavs or the Spurs, how do we expect to play with the Heat or the Bulls in the playoffs? Because getting out of the 7th or 8th seed is becoming more distant as time goes on.

  247. Gamecockerbocker:
    Lin seriously needs to stop worrying about turning the ball over or whatever it is he’s doing that makes him pick up his dribble at the free throw line or jack up early 3?s and get back to pounding the lane. I can deal with turnovers in the paint if he’s creating for himself and others.

    too late. all his critics and fans who kept hounding him about his to’s while he was scoring 20+pts in winning games already got into his head.

  248. Will the Thrill:
    Yeah, I guess it’s just frustrating seeing this happen, no matter who is on the team.It really seems like they could go out and get Howard somehow, and they would still figure out a way to lose (not having a point guard, not having shooters, etc.).I admit that I have nearly lost all faith in this team, unless Lin figures out how to play like he was during his run.Amar’e and Melo performing at an average rate wouldn’t hurt either I guess.

    What’s fun to me, or perhaps rewarding, is when you don’t lose faith (and I really shouldn’t call it faith or hope because a big turnaround is within reason) and the team figures it out and clicks.

    That’s the most rewarding thing to me as a sports fan, and tfor as corny as it sounds, that sort of magic is shared by everyone on the team, covering it and following it… totally palpable deal.

    I understand the perspective of Knicks fans who haven’t seen that kind of thing in a long time. But when you see, as I’ve seen it with Melo and the Nuggets with many April runs, the 32-8 run in ’05, the playoff run in Melo’s rookie year, and the incredible playoff run in ’08.

    When you see that stuff happen, and trust me, this team is more talented than any of those teams, you know that if just a few things start to go in a certain direction, if a you get a couple of wins, there’s a certain kind of confidence and sort of release of energy (which I think goes to a whole new level in NY, with this kind of talent, and with these kind of expectations)……that’s possible that can lead to a magical playoff run.

    For as bad as it seems right now and as underachieving as this tem is, I’ve seen teams in much worse situations go on pretty unthinkable runs.

    And what makes me believe it will happen with this team: Baron Davis, Chandler, Melo, AMar’e, they’ve all been a part of something like…

  249. drewbreez:
    So you’re not a Carmelo apologist, yet when asked what his statistical output has yielded for his teams in terms of playoff wins during his tenure as an NBA player, you point to how well he played in a loss? His TS%? His OPP PER?

    Methinks a definition of “apologist” may be in order.

    You can’t separate the individual player from the team context, especially in the playoffs, regardless of how great the player is.

    Kobe and Wade were first round and out guys without another great player.

    Lebron could never get over the hump by himself (and his playoff wins are padded by some pretty easy competition you don’t see at the bottom seeds out west).

    MJ, Garnett, unbelievable players that couldn’t produce in the playoffs until the right team situation. A lot of other really good players around Melo’s caliber that needed a certain situation.

    We’ve seen from Amar’e, Melo and Chandler go very deep in the playoffs on teams that may not have been as talented as this one.

    So, I’m not sure how to asnwer that question specifically to Melo, unless you want a year-by-year analysis of his playoff performances in the context of the team structure.

  250. yes stop defending him. where’s the knowledgeable and tough fanbase thats gonna rip him apart to get him inline. we need that.

    drewbreez:
    So you’re not a Carmelo apologist, yet when asked what his statistical output has yielded for his teams in terms of playoff wins during his tenure as an NBA player, you point to how well he played in a loss? His TS%? His OPP PER?

    Methinks a definition of “apologist” may be in order.

  251. I want a year-by-year analysis of his playoff performances in the context of the team structure, as posed by ruruland, yes. In fact, since you brought out the big guns like Sir Michael of Jordan and Sir Kevin of Beantown, may you please start there? Give special attention to playoff TS%, total wins, wins produced and the like. Cheers!

  252. drewbreez:
    So you’re not a Carmelo apologist, yet when asked what his statistical output has yielded for his teams in terms of playoff wins during his tenure as an NBA player, you point to how well he played in a loss? His TS%? His OPP PER?

    Methinks a definition of “apologist” may be in order.

    I don’t remember saying anything about Melo and Playoffs at all last night… I was defending his performance against the Spurs since everyone wanted to overlook things like STAT and Lin getting molested by everyone they defended, Landry Fields missing wide open layup(S!) and Josh Harrelson being so pathetically bad on offense that he could catch the ball behind the three point line and be defended from inside the paint. So yes, if you’re calling me a Melo apologist last night then you’re right, but I have no idea what his career ts% and wins produced compared to Michael Jordan in the playoffs have anything to do with a loss to the Spurs.

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