2012 Game Thread: Bobcats @ Knicks

* Here’s a preview from fellow THNer.

* ESPN’s preview as well.

* Related news: Time Warner & MSG acting like 3 year olds.

* No Knick guards on the All Star Ballot.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

241 thoughts to “2012 Game Thread: Bobcats @ Knicks”

  1. I’ll be the Firsties to say SHUMP SHUMP!

    Hopefully that makes everyone happy (altho it could also make everyone UNhappy…)

  2. I SHUMP SHUMPED Time Warner today and switched to Direct TV. It feels great to SHUMP. SHUMPING is good.

  3. To quote Tarantino/Jimmie in Pulp Fiction: “Dorks. They look like a couple of dorks.”

  4. I just read Sebastian Pruiti article about STAT on gratland and i dont agree with the idea that TC is the reason that Stats struggling. in the second half of 07 when he had Shaq, Stat was playing on an MVP level. I just think he’s struggling with his shot

  5. daJudge:
    I think Melo has a Warners Brother’s tattoo as well. Where was the cool photo taken?

    It’s the “WB” logo but he’s repping West Bal’mer, not shilling for Animaniacs and whatnot.

  6. jaylamerique:
    I just read Sebastian Pruiti article about STAT on gratland and i dont agree with the idea that TC is the reason that Stats struggling. in the second half of 07 when he had Shaq, Stat was playing on an MVP level. I just think he’s struggling with his shot

    it’s ridiculous/hilarious to write a piece like that after three games, especially when NY was missing their eventual starting backcount for 2.5 of them. he kind of admits that midway, but still, not really worth the pixels it’s written on.

    B+ for the SHUMP SHUMP, no more firsties on this site. next game let’s get it right.

  7. jon abbey: it’s ridiculous/hilarious to write a piece like that after three games, especially when NY was missing their eventual starting backcount for 2.5 of them. he kind of admits that midway, but still, not really worth the pixels it’s written on. B+ for the SHUMP SHUMP, no more firsties on this site. next game let’s get it right.

    Simmons told him to write it after the Knicks/Celtics game!

  8. @14 There is definitely a Knicks radio broadcast (with John Andres and all)–I’m listening on the computer. They probably got bumped to a different station.

  9. I just read Sebastian Pruiti article about STAT on gratland and i dont agree with the idea that TC is the reason that Stats struggling. in the second half of 07 when he had Shaq, Stat was playing on an MVP level. I just think he’s struggling with his shot

    That was a weird article. The guy has played only three games! That said, obviously I agree that Amar’e should run the pick and roll more.

  10. Remember the days when STAT was basically automatic from mid-range? I used to expect the ball to go in practically every time he let loose….now I expect the opposite….hopefully he works out the kinks stat!

  11. I agree with whoever said that Amare looked too musclebound to shoot this year. On the flipside, he should be a beast on the defensive end. Still not sure why he isn’t a better defender. He’s basically built like Biyombo.

  12. G:
    @14 There is definitely a Knicks radio broadcast (with John Andres and all)–I’m listening on the computer. They probably got bumped to a different station.

    it’s unreal. can’t find it. if anyone knows of any “other” feeds that would be most appreciated.

  13. ess-dog:
    I agree with whoever said that Amare looked too musclebound to shoot this year.On the flipside, he should be a beast on the defensive end.Still not sure why he isn’t a better defender.He’s basically built like Biyombo.

    that was me. putting on muscle = loss of flexibility which is bad for shooting and touch

  14. It’s funny – it is not even like Shump is playing amazing, but he is moving things more than any of the Knicks’ point guards. And it really shows.

  15. It’s weird how now that we have a real center, other teams are looking to spread the floor against us.

    The fast break looks much better with Shump at point, though that’s not saying much.

    Balkman!

  16. Boris Diaw well on his way to first inductee in 2012 Knicks opponents’ middling Hall of Fame squad!

  17. someone needs to tell balkman hes not in the game to take contested 3s! drives me nuts how much of an ass he is with his shot selection

  18. We wonder why Balkman doesn’t get more burn, but as soon as he comes in he makes one major bonehead play (like hoist up an all-advised 3) which negates or at least is more memorable than all the positives he brings.

  19. Hoisting up ill advised 3s is one of this team’s specialties. Balkman is hardly the only culprit.

  20. Sittin here thinkin about Stat’s troubles with Melo thus far..especially this season. Here’s my take:
    (Duh statement of the year) Melo is undoubtedly our BEST overall player. Meaning all facets of the game combined. Not just our best scorer. The guy scores at will, can pass, rebound, and play defense when focused. With Melo on the team, Stat HAS to accept “Robin” stats, but this shouldn’t necessarily kill his stats and effect on the game. We all know that this team is nearly unstoppable when Stat gets goin. So why not let Melo pull a Kobe? U know..facilitate and pick his spots early in the game while others, mainly Stat, get involved. I figure if we can get Stat goin early, and get other players feeding off of him and knockin down shots, that would lead to alot less playin catch up. Then when we need Melo to take over he can do that and it should theoretically be easier for him becuz teams will have been focusin so much energy on Stat early. Just a thought.
    And a question…why doesn’t Stat dive to the rim like he used to? Chandler looks like the old Stat out there on the P&R.

  21. 2nd game in a row at home vs a shitty East team playing the 2nd of a back-to-back and the Knicks in the 1st half look like 80 yo men compared to their fresher looking opponents.

  22. Marshon Brooks G
    Sundiata Gaines G
    Mehmet Okur C
    Damion James F
    Sheldon Williams F

    That is a hilarious starting lineup.

  23. The other point about Amare and his shots is that his “mid range” last year was 10-15 feet and this year it’s 20 feet.

  24. The Knicks have played some pathetic defense in the past but tonight so far might be the most pathetic display of defense Ive ever seen from them and that is saying alot.

  25. Tony “Ill advised 3 pointer” Douglas strikes again. The Bobcats are terrible-this is getting embarrassing. Maybe that’s why MSG is refusing to deal with Time Warner.

  26. Over/Under on how many more games before Shumpert is a starter? I’m setting the line at 4.

  27. Mike Woodson over-switching has already impacted this team

    Agreed. What the heck? My kingdom for a real defensive guru! The Knicks have a gazillion dollars to spend, how can they not hire a real defensive guru?

  28. IDK, is a Balkman three any worse than a long Amare two?

    Jeez, none of our guards can pass.

  29. 62 points allowed in a half vs Charlotte. The entire coaching staff should be fired on the spot.

  30. There’s something fun about watching Nets vs. Celtics tonight for some reason. I guess watching a scrappy team like them compete with a good team like the Celtics that’s just entertaining to watch.

  31. That feeling you get when Stat launching a three, then fails to get back on his man in transition, when that man is DJ White.

    Hilariously true/sad.

  32. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): Agreed. What the heck? My kingdom for a real defensive guru! The Knicks have a gazillion dollars to spend, how can they not hire a real defensive guru?

    they wanted Frank but lost out when the pistons hired him. i think we should’ve known what to based on what woodson did with the hawks

  33. they wanted Frank but lost out when the pistons hired him. i think we should’ve known what to based on what woodson did with the hawks

    Thing is, I don’t think they were even getting Frank had he not gotten the job. I think he was going to go to Boston.

  34. Aside from Shumpert in his first game back we have 3 bench points.

    The weird thing is, we had all these horrible defenders last year and generally won games. So now we add Tyson friggin’ Chandler and then the Lolcats and the Craptors rain down points on us???

  35. O so now do you guys get why i say Fire MD, are u kidding me ??? Very liitle attention to detail and the little things. Still no adjustments made on the Charlotte screens, and no one is being held accountable for not contesting screen shots or hedging screens, to be fair balkman looked good defensively, he and chandler were the only ones figthting over screens and showing out as well as good recoveries after the hedge. FIRE MIKE D’ANTONI.

  36. ess-dog:
    Aside from Shumpert in his first game back we have 3 bench points.

    The weird thing is, we had all these horrible defenders last year and generally won games.So now we add Tyson friggin’ Chandler and then the Lolcats and the Craptors rain down points on us???

    we were good against the raptors but tonight we’ve been horrible. the problem is that we are switching every single screen. we did that a little big against the raptors but they didn’t take advantage as much

  37. jaylamerique: we were good against the raptors but tonight we’ve been horrible. the problem is that we are switching every single screen. we did that a little big against the raptors but they didn’t take advantage as much

    Amare is just a terrible defender. Jorts at least tries even if he’s overmatched. I preferred Amare defending centers. At least we had a speed advantage.

  38. In Woodson’s defense, the Knicks switched everything last year as well so they’re still running D’A’s defense. Right now the Knicks have two players who are good defenders- Chandler and Shumpert. Melo is okay on his man but doesn’t help at all. Amar’e is as clueless as I’ve seen on the P & R. Fields trails every screen by about 3 feet. Douglas is flat out not very good- commits awful fouls on the perimeter, gives up way too much penetration, etc…

  39. i kinda wish the heat had fired erik spoestra. i think that guys a great coach and would be better than Jackson

  40. nicos:
    In Woodson’s defense, the Knicks switched everything last year as well so they’re still running D’A’s defense.Right now the Knicks have two players who are good defenders- Chandler and Shumpert.Melo is okay on his man but doesn’t help at all.Amar’e is as clueless as I’ve seen on the P & R.Fields trails every screen by about 3 feet.Douglas is flat out not very good- commits awful fouls on the perimeter, gives up way too much penetration, etc…

    But Woodson switched everything as a Hawks coach too

  41. John Andreas made a comment about guys who are perceived as “great”. He was saying that maybe they don’t think they need to play D. Wow. Insightful comment from a (major) homer dude who has been very, very critical tonight. I feel like the coach and his team requires suboxone to ween off SSOL.

  42. No finger pointing tonight at any one player, just an absolutely horrible, lifeless effort on the defensive end against one of the worst offenses in the NBA. Unbelievable.

  43. Boris Diaw is at least 25 pounds over weight, yet the Knicks aren’t even making him look winded. WTH?

  44. It is a consummate collectively awful defensive effort….we can’t even say any player is torching a particular Knick since they switch on EVERYTHING!

  45. Shump should be our starting two next time out. B Diddy can’t get healthy soon enough. Watching douglas play point guard hurts.

  46. Fields… garbage… TD… garbage… D’Antoni… what in God’s name are you doing taking Shumpert out for Douglas? I can’t defend Melo tonight… STAT looks like he’s never shot a midrange jumper before, which is really sad because his was beautiful. Idk wtf is going on this year.

  47. Yeah so for an entertaining game. You guys should take advantage of the free league pass and watch the Knuggets. I remember how good a fast paced offense looks. 2 fastbreak dunks by Mosgov so far.

  48. BigBlueAL:
    Spring Training couldnt start soon enough.

    The Rangers are actually really good. Skilled, hard working, well coached. Oh, right. You can’t watch them either.

  49. This is so bad short season, no chemsitry, no defense, no offense no heart this is really bad 3 people over 12 million a year and this is our result

  50. i don’t usually post, but wow, amar’e just got destroyed by diaw on that drive. did he give up or is he really that bad defensively?

  51. I was excited for this year because of all the addition of the knicks but so far is disappointing. Knicks defense sucks as always and I don’t see it improve with melo and stoudmire in the line up. This two can’t defend even their grandmother for Christ sake. Also they are both ball hogs. The offense doesn’t flow with them on the floor. Also Stoudmire it looks like it forgot how to play on the offensive end. I hope they improve because they are betting on Davis but I cant see how he will help if the defense will continue to suck

  52. I think Baron is our last hope. We should all start watching again when he makes his return. For our own sanity.

  53. We should have kept the team we had. At least we would have a point guard. Then we still would have the option to amnesty stat in the coming years.

  54. only reason to watch the knicks now is to see the development of shump. If he is not starting the very next game, dantoni is asking to be fired.

  55. rohank:
    I think Baron is our last hope. We should all start watching again when he makes his return. For our own sanity.

    i dont see how he can be our last hope. We are expecting too much from him. What if he came out of condition and not motivated??
    for me D’Anthony has to go.
    and one of these melo or stoudmire. they cant defend and dont make any one better

  56. knicks make the playoffs, get swept. Then raise ticket prices, basically double ticket prices. Now they are getting boo’ed angrily. What did they expect?

  57. The only reason to watch these Knicks is when they are home to see when people start throwing stuff at D’Antoni.

  58. rohank:
    @129. It’s like you jinxed him!

    it was crazy, i typed that and sent it, and literally the next second he got hurt. I really hope its just a cramp or minor tweek. He must be on fumes after being out for so long.

  59. Hey. They’re airing it on NBATV right now in HD. So now was can watch the Knicks lose in 720p.

    On a side note. I think D’Antoni should have just walked away when they traded for Carmelo last season.

  60. DRed:
    Is firing D’Antoni going to make these idiots any better?

    I actually feel like Jax could get through to these guys. We have talent.

  61. Gerald Henderson, Byron Mullens, and Boris Diaw a combined 28-36 from the field.

    Maybe the lockout wasn’t so bad.

  62. DRed:
    Is firing D’Antoni going to make these idiots any better?

    you might have a point. But it puts them on notice, psychologically that they just aren’t getting it done.

  63. Phil Jackson is used to coaching teams with shitty PG’s so the current Knicks would be a perfect fit for him lol

  64. i think contrary to popular belief, jackson would be motivated to coach the knicks. It would be coming full circle for him. The knicks don’t have a transcendent star like MJ or Kobe. If jackson could win with this team it would cement his legacy beyond a reasonable doubt.

  65. llcoolbp: you might have a point. But it puts them on notice, psychologically that they just aren’t getting it done.

    I don’t really care if we fire D’Antoni (although I do like him). He’s been well compensated, and maybe this team is just a bad fit for him. If we got a healthy, motivated Phil Jackson, I’d support that. But hiring anyone in the middle of this short season isn’t go to fix anything. You think Phil is going to succeed getting these chuckers to run the triangle offense if 40 games with limited practice time? Not a chance.

  66. I think if the Knicks lose to Washington D’Antoni should be fired before the post game press conference.

  67. Bobcats came in to this game averaging 92.2 ppg, tonight they get a whopping 118. That is just disgraceful.

  68. Why do people blame Carmelo for all the team’s problems? He’s never been a point guard, but people hate him for not running pick and rolls and getting his team down the floor on the break? Do Dirk and Durant act as their team’s primary ball handlers, or do they have actual guards who run the offense for them? And if you’re going to get on him for his defense, how do you not destroy Stoudemire? I mean the best case scenario is that he is an absolutely stupid, clueless, slow defender, otherwise his absolute lack of defensive effort and even boxing out means he doesn’t care about winning at all. There is no star big man in the league who just looks so absolutely useless on defense, and he’s not even making up for it on offense since he can’t hit a jumpshot to save his life. The knicks have many problems (many, many, many of which they had before Carmelo came to town) but saying Carmelo is the reason the entire team can’t play coherent basketball is ridiculous

  69. llcoolbp:
    dantoni should be fired tonight!

    fired and replaced by whom? Unless you have some proof that Jackson is coming to the knicks you dont make this move. + firing a coach in a season this short is going to create chaos. I also wouldnt replace MDA with woodson. He is a better coach than woodson

  70. So a question to the people who want D’Antoni fired: who do you want to replace him?

    Phil Jackson is not taking over this mess. Woodson is clearly not as good a coach as D’Antoni is. What options are out there?

  71. Also, are we going to pretend the Knicks were ever going anywhere with Gallinari and Raymond Felton as their next best players after Stoudemire? People need to stop acting like the Knicks were going anywhere with the pre Melo group, even the mighty “Knuggets” that were supposedly much improved post Melo (and post Chauncey dribbling up to the 3 point line and shooting immediately offense) got beat easily by OKC in 5 games.

  72. I wanted the knicks to play more as a team. tonight I got my wish. This was a true team effort.

  73. Watched the whole game and what I came away from it with were these —

    1) Shumpert is a game-changer on defense. Wow does he cause havoc.

    2) Amare is a total sieve on defense. Sure he had 12 rebounds tonight, and overall looked much more active on the boards — but his awareness is just terrible. He needs to stop working on “ballhandling” over the offseason and work on defensive fundamentals.

    3) Even so – the reason they lost this game is that Charlotte shot totally lights out from long 2. Honestly, Gerald Henderson? He of the career TS of 51, shooting 38% from 16-23 feet this year? He shot 10/13 tonight. And Diaw just could not miss. Let’s not even talk about Mullens who was continuously taking the worst shot in the game, the contested jumper from just inside the 3 point line.

    Call me a ridiculous optimist, but if just one of those 3 doesn’t have a career shooting night (on shots you WANT them to shoot even if some of them were more open than others), this is a totally different game.

  74. @165 – question: If Melo had just told Denver he wasn’t going to re-sign instead of playing this coy “maybe I’ll re-sign and maybe I won’t” game to force a trade and get his big pay day, who would be running the point for the Knicks right now?

    That’s why I place the blame on Melo: this is the scenario that he created by forcing the Knicks to gut their roster to acquire him instead of just signing with them as a free agent. The Knicks wanted him and he forced them to up their offer by telling Denver there was still a good chance he would re-sign with them if he wasn’t traded, giving them back their leverage.

    He made his bed, he gets to lie in it.

  75. Juany8: Also, are we going to pretend the Knicks were ever going anywhere with Gallinari and Raymond Felton as their next best players after Stoudemire? People need to stop acting like the Knicks were going anywhere with the pre Melo group, even the mighty “Knuggets” that were supposedly much improved post Melo (and post Chauncey dribbling up to the 3 point line and shooting immediately offense) got beat easily by OKC in 5 games.

    you forget the money they had with currys contract… and yes i belive that felton feilds gallo old amare mozgov chandler douglass shumpart and tons of money is a better long term team. they played with heart every night. i miss the old times!

  76. Juany8:
    Also, are we going to pretend the Knicks were ever going anywhere with Gallinari and Raymond Felton as their next best players after Stoudemire? People need to stop acting like the Knicks were going anywhere with the pre Melo group, even the mighty “Knuggets” that were supposedly much improved post Melo (and post Chauncey dribbling up to the 3 point line and shooting immediately offense) got beat easily by OKC in 5 games.

    Well I don’t know about “going anywhere”, but it’s pretty obvious they wouldn’t be 2-4 right now.

    But regardless, isn’t this a strawman? Who has said that the Knicks pre-Melo trade were a title contender? What relevance does that have to do anything?

  77. ugh. Posting while eating. Last sentence should read “what relevance does that have here?”

  78. Melo’s not the entire problem for sure, but he is a chucker. He’s not worth what he is paid. Below average defense and passing. I mean, he’s having a good year so far statistically, but trading for his enormous contract busted this team. It was a horrible trade but we were so afraid he was going to the Nets that we gave up the farm and overpaid a 2nd player. We had a nice team at the all-star break last year, a D’Antoni team. Imagine adding Shumpert to that mix? And of course, we would then have the rest of our draft picks.
    It’s frustrating that we finally built a team, tore it up after half a year, then tore it up again right before this season.

  79. Awful defensive effort even taking into account that Henderson, Diaw, and Mullins basically hit everything they put up from outside. But even if they had normal shooting nights they’d probably still have won. Amar’e was atrocious. They played a little zone towards the end and they’re going to have to play it a lot more to hide Amar’e.
    On the (only) plus side- Shumpert had two steals, forced two other turnovers, forced a couple of loose balls that Charlotte wound up getting to, and added five defensive boards- even if this game was an unusually good shooting game, health permitting he should still get 30+ minutes a night.

  80. Frank:
    Watched the whole game and what I came away from it with were these –

    1) Shumpert is a game-changer on defense. Wow does he cause havoc.

    2) Amare is a total sieve on defense.Sure he had 12 rebounds tonight, and overall looked much more active on the boards — but his awareness is just terrible.He needs to stop working on “ballhandling” over the offseason and work on defensive fundamentals.

    3) Even so – the reason they lost this game is that Charlotte shot totally lights out from long 2.Honestly, Gerald Henderson? He of the career TS of 51, shooting 38% from 16-23 feet this year?He shot 10/13 tonight.And Diaw just could not miss.Let’s not even talk about Mullens who was continuously taking the worst shot in the game, the contested jumper from just inside the 3 point line.

    Call me a ridiculous optimist, but if just one of those 3 doesn’t have a career shooting night (on shots you WANT them to shoot even if some of them were more open than others), this is a totally different game.

    You are a ridiculous optimist. (And I generally think I agree with your optimistic take) but I could HEAR on the radio the constant deep lane penetration of Augustine, uncontested plays by DJ White and Amare consistently being unable to defend the PnR. Add those good shooting nights and you get to a point where you are down by 18 several times. Take away one of those shooting nights and your down by 8-10. Take away two and your tied… TO THE BOBCATS.

  81. xduckshoex:
    @165 – question:If Melo had just told Denver he wasn’t going to re-sign instead of playing this coy “maybe I’ll re-sign and maybe I won’t” game to force a trade and get his big pay day, who would be running the point for the Knicks right now?

    That’s why I place the blame on Melo:this is the scenario that he created by forcing the Knicks to gut their roster to acquire him instead of just signing with them as a free agent.The Knicks wanted him and he forced them to up their offer by telling Denver there was still a good chance he would re-sign with them if he wasn’t traded, giving them back their leverage.

    He made his bed, he gets to lie in it.

    Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop this rehashing of the Melo-drama last year? Every single player in the NBA would have done the exact same thing with the uncertainty of the CBA. Just move on.

  82. ess-dog:
    Melo’s not the entire problem for sure, but he is a chucker.He’s not worth what he is paid.Below average defense and passing.I mean, he’s having a good year so far statistically, but trading for his enormous contract busted this team.It was a horrible trade but we were so afraid he was going to the Nets that we gave up the farm and overpaid a 2nd player.We had a nice team at the all-star break last year, a D’Antoni team.Imagine adding Shumpert to that mix?And of course, we would then have the rest of our draft picks.
    It’s frustrating that we finally built a team, tore it up after half a year, then tore it up again right before this season.

    Unfortunately, our team is owned by an immature spoiled rich boy, who also happens to be a fucking moron.

  83. Frank touched on it above, but for me a lot of promising signs tonight. obviously primarily Shump Shump is back and looked like a game-changer in only his second game in the league (I’m willing to bet the Garden has never repeatedly chanted the name of a rookie in their second game before, especially one who is sitting!), but nice to see Bibby out of the rotation. Charlotte shot out of their minds tonight, which I don’t think is entirely on the Knicks D, especially some of those 4th quarter shots. anyway, the sooner Baron is back and Fields’ minutes are cut to 15 or less, the better. there is no reason to judge this team before Baron and Shump Shump are the starting guards.

    on a related note, I would buy a Shump Shump t-shirt if Mike is listening.

  84. Same old story: Knicks Are standing around. I guess if you wear sneakers you should be moving

  85. The optimists do make fair points. I really hope we switch to zone (I thought this last year.) Baron and Shump as starters would be watchable but still we’re always one injury away from irrelevance.

    I still think Melo and Stat are too flawed to have max contracts on this team but I hope I’m wrong.

  86. d-mar: Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop this rehashing of the Melo-drama last year? Every single player in the NBA would have done the exact same thing with the uncertainty of the CBA. Just move on.

    Nah. It was a legit answer to the question. If the Knicks don’t give up way too much for Melo they are almost certainly in better shape right now. There’s really no reason to ignore that simple fact. I don’t care if every other player would have done it, I just care about the fact that he did it and it is impacting the quality of the Knicks basketball team right now.

    It was a great business move but a terrible basketball move, and he deserves to criticized for it from a basketball standpoint.

    Also, you can’t say that every player would have done that when we recently had three huge stars take pay cuts to play together. To me, the differences between Lebron/Wade and Melo are shown in how they got where they are right now: Lebron and Wade, while still getting paid an obscene amount, took pay cuts to make their team better. Melo forced his future team to gut themselves so he can make a little more money.

  87. xduckshoex: Nah.It was a legit answer to the question.If the Knicks don’t give up way too much for Melo they are almost certainly in better shape right now.There’s really no reason to ignore that simple fact.I don’t care if every other player would have done it, I just care about the fact that he did it and it is impacting the quality of the Knicks basketball team right now.

    It was a great business move but a terrible basketball move, and he deserves to criticized for it from a basketball standpoint.

    Also, you can’t say that every player would have done that when we recently had three huge stars take pay cuts to play together.To me, the differences between Lebron/Wade and Melo are shown in how they got where they are right now:Lebron and Wade, while still getting paid an obscene amount, took pay cuts to make their team better.Melo forced his future team to gut themselves so he can make a little more money.

    You cannot compare the LeBron/Wade situation to Melo’s, it’s known vs. unknown. They knew exactly what they were giving up and getting salary-wise, plus paying no state taxes in Fla. I’m not saying I think NBA players are angels (or any pro athletes for that matter) but today’s players are ruled by their agents, and every agent in the NBA would have advised their clients to do just what Melo did.

  88. RE: Melo..
    A chucker? Yup. But also a world class scorer. Rite now I wouldn’t trade Melo for NOTHIN. Listen, Kobe is a chucker too..but nobody complains cuz he’s a champion. I’m not sayin Melo’s as good as Kobe..but Melo, Kobe, Lebron, and Durant are the best scorers this league has had since MJ and ‘Nique..without question. Without critiquing each individual’s games, mainly becuz Kobe is a much better 2 way player, the biggest difference between Melo and Kobe’s career arc is situation. Kobe’s front office has always surrounded Kobe with championship material. Kobe had to learn how to play off of and play with the likes of Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom…not a bad hand. I’m problee one of the biggest AI fans on earth, so this may surprise: Melo’s best running mate so far is Stat. And apart from that, he hasn’t had the right players alongside him to make it work. Not 2 mention he and Stat hasn’t reached a comfort level with each other yet. I am convinced that Melo is the rite player for the Knicks to build around(out of all the players who may be available)..unless we can get D12..especially after the show he put on in the second half tonite. His biggest problem in NY is the dynamic with Stat. Chandler’s a perfect fit alongside him..and Bibby would be if he had more in the tank, Shump’s a great fit as well. But thas about it. Bottom line, your not gonna find too many players better than Melo rite now..flaws and all. D’Antoni just needs to find a way to accentuate his strengths while the front office finds better fits to put around him. Stat becoming the dominant big he was born to be instead of masquerading as a wing would be the best help to the team right now. Melo’s good in his role..we’re lucky to have his talent right now.

  89. llcoolbp:
    fire dantoni chants starting at the garden

    D’Antoni’s “March to Three Wins” by season:

    2008: 3-2
    2009: 3-14
    2010: 3-8
    2011: 3-??

    Obviously “hot starts” haven’t been D’A’s thing since he’s been here. Even in 2009 when the team had almost no talented players on the roster, they straightened it out a little and sniffed .500 by January. Last year they started horrible and were still able to go 7 games over .500 by mid-december.

    I really have no idea why D’Antoni can’t get them clicking out of the gate. Certainly he’s not the only coach to ever have roster turnover, or a shortened pre-season. I think it is an indictment of his style; however, the act that we are stumbling out of the gate does not mean they are going to continue to stumble, and firing him probably won’t make the Knicks win more games this year.

  90. xduckshoex:
    Also, you can’t say that every player would have done that when we recently had three huge stars take pay cuts to play together.To me, the differences between Lebron/Wade and Melo are shown in how they got where they are right now:Lebron and Wade, while still getting paid an obscene amount, took pay cuts to make their team better.Melo forced his future team to gut themselves so he can make a little more money.

    Sorta kinda but not really. LBJ/Bosh forced sign-and-trades under the old system and they knew exactly what they were signing up for – they probably each gave up less than $10MM total, if that. Not chump change obviously but not that much relative to their total compensation. I’m not saying that I would’ve done the same thing, but I can understand Melo forcing a trade when he did — no one had ANY idea what the CBA was going to bring. It could’ve brought 3 year contracts with max $ being 13MM. As it is, Chandler is making $14MM/season x 4 years = $56MM, whereas Carmelo is making closer to $80MM. It’s easy for us to say someone else should give up 30-50MM to play on a winning team, but harder to do it yourself.

    Listen- as it is, even WITH the gutting of the team to get Melo (a trade that 95% of posters here agreed was a bad basketball trade), this team should have enough talent to seriously contend, next year if not this year. Baron Davis, Shumpert, Melo, Amare, and Chandler as starters, Fields, TD, JJ, Walker, etc. off the bench? Maybe K-Mart coming for the room exception? This is a good team. If we lose in the second round to MIA or CHI so be it – it’s year 1 of this crew. If we lose in the 1st round, then it has to be considered a disaster of a year and D’Antoni will definitely take the fall.

  91. Frank: Baron Davis, Shumpert, Melo, Amare, and Chandler as starters, Fields, TD, JJ, Walker, etc. off the bench? Maybe K-Mart coming for the room exception? This is a good team. If we lose in the second round to MIA or CHI so be it – it’s year 1 of this crew. If we lose in the 1st round, then it has to be considered a disaster of a year and D’Antoni will definitely take the fall.

    totally agree with that until the last sentence, as they might not have time to gel this season. I am not a D’Antoni fan, but I think he’ll be back as long as they make the playoffs.

  92. DReDD:
    Is it me or does Shump look like STAT?

    I thought that the other day, too. He could be his little (very little) brother.

  93. Melo and stat surprised me on the rebounding (in a good way) but I still will probably play stat at 3 melo at two and always have someone at four for rebounding alongside chan. If the Knicks want to win they need to focus on rebound ….

  94. Sorry guys, but it’s abundantly clear that the Knicks only hope of building a contender requires them to move Amare, perhaps for nickels on the dollar. He is probably the worst interior defender in the NBA, which comes close to negating his value on offense. Melo is so much more versatile on offense, and actually has considerable ability to play within the offense at times. It’s obvious that Melo is the player you build around. I don’t see how it’s possible to win with Amare inside.

  95. An astounding +/- of -21 for Landry Fields while no other player had anything in double digits for the Knicks…

  96. tenebrous: Melo and stat surprised me on the rebounding (in a good way) but I still will probably play stat at 3 melo at two and always have someone at four for rebounding alongside chan. If the Knicks want to win they need to focus on rebound ….

    What? Melo is a very good rebounder for a 3. Amare is a very poor rebounder for a 4. See the problem yet?

  97. While it would be a good basketball move to trade Amar’e, I don’t think it will happen. James DOH! ‘lan

  98. jon abbey:
    Frank touched on it above, but for me a lot of promising signs tonight. obviously primarily Shump Shump is back and looked like a game-changer… but nice to see Bibby out of the rotation…

    Yeah. Nice to see D’Antoni shorten his rotation AND have Balkman be on the long end of it. Renaldo didn’t have a huge impact game, but it’s great he (appears to be) ahead of Bibby, Novak, Jordan, and Harrelson on the depth chart (at least until J”godsend”J returns…)

  99. It must happen. Amare is the issue with this team. I really don’t understand his appeal, even offensively. He’s a great finisher in the p/r and a good 15 foot jumper shooter. Those things aren’t that rare. He has no post game and is ineffective without being set-up. In order to get Amare’s offensive efficiency to surpass his defensive effenciency you need a great p/r point guard…..

    It’s just not how you build a championship team. There are a lot of guys at 1/4 to 1/2 of amare’s salary that can play solid defense and make an open jumpt shot, allowing you to buiold around a truly great offensive player in Melo

  100. ruruland:
    Sorry guys, but it’s abundantly clear that the Knicks only hope of building a contender requires them to move Amare, perhaps fornickels on the dollar. He is probably the worst interior defender in the NBA, which comes close to negating his value on offense. Melo is so much more versatile on offense, and actually has considerable ability to play within the offense at times. It’s obvious that Melo is the player you build around. I don’t see how it’s possible to win with Amare inside.

    I appreciate what Stat has done in NY..but I agree with this 1. Mainly becuz I don’t see him accepting 2nd option status and working more on defense and rebounding. After all his talk and with the addition of Chandler, I thought for sure that he would focus more on bein a paint presence. But the exact opposite happened and he seems more allergic to paint than he’s ever been. Stat’s a really really really good player, I’m sure Grunny can get useful pieces in return for him. Maybe Orlando wants him if the Lakers decide to hold on to Bynum or NJ doesn’t send Lopez and 2 firsts their way. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to land Kevin Love? Hell..I’d take Josh Smith for Amare straight up..ATL would hafta add somethin to make the salaries match tho. No knock on Amar’e, if he can accept his role and get in that paint more..I would love to keep him. But the name of the game is constant improvement and if there’s a trade out there for better fits, then u obviously do it.

  101. Will the Thrill: If anyone cares, Denver’s box score is pretty insane. Mainly the FGM-A column.

    Denver has been running teams out in the third and fourth quarter for a very long time.

  102. ruruland: What? Melo is a very good rebounder for a 3. Amare is a very poor rebounder for a 4. See the problem yet?

    The problem is the coaching not the players. On d they’re standing around and on o they’re forgetting to run the lanes. Theyre just not passing the ball. There should b a rule: each payer touches on o and then anyone shoots.

  103. Will the Thrill:
    If anyone cares, Denver’s box score is pretty insane. Mainly the FGM-A column.

    Yup. Up 30, with no one on the entire team taking more than 10 shots. That’s a team.

  104. Melo is a less efficient offensive player than Amar’e for his career. I think you are overrating Melo in comparison to Amar’e. But sure, with no point guard and in an offense solely based on isolations, Melo is a far superior offensive player.

  105. SeeWhyDee77: I appreciate what Stat has done in NY..but I agree with this 1. Mainly becuz I don’t see him accepting 2nd option status and working more on defense and rebounding. After all his talk and with the addition of Chandler, I thought for sure that he would focus more on bein a paint presence. But the exact opposite happened and he seems more allergic to paint than he’s ever been. Stat’s a really really really good player, I’m sure Grunny can get useful pieces in return for him. Maybe Orlando wants him if the Lakers decide to hold on to Bynum or NJ doesn’t send Lopez and 2 firsts their way. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to land Kevin Love? Hell..I’d take Josh Smith for Amare straight up..ATL would hafta add somethin to make the salaries match tho. No knock on Amar’e, if he can accept his role and get in that paint more..I would love to keep him. But the name of the game is constant improvement and if there’s a trade out there for better fits, then u obviously do it.

    I’m not sure how closely Knicks fans followed WC teams like the Sun prior to signing Amare, but his inability to guard anyone inside should come as no surprise.

    Look, he played alongside one of the greeat space eaters of all-time, along with perhaps the greatest p/r passer of all-time (with a very balanced team around them), and still was unable to contribute enough to help his team advance in the playoffs.

    All things considered, Amare is a slighty better than average player.

  106. Will the Thrill: Melo is a less efficient offensive player than Amar’e for his career. I think you are overrating Melo in comparison to Amar’e. But sure, with no point guard and in an offense solely based on isolations, Melo is a far superior offensive player.

    Of course he’s less efficient. Amare’s game was perfectly utilized for most of his career in PHX. Melo’s efficiency scoring wise isn’t where his value is greatest, it’s always been in his ability to create doubles on the block, forcing an unbalanced defense to rotate on the perimeter. melo’s assist numbers have always been quite decieving.

    Melo has gotten a better whistle in NY and has substantially improved his 3pt shooting. He’s going to have his most efficient years in NY.

  107. Amar’e was great once Felton learned how to run the pick and roll, also. It wasn’t until Melo came along until things started going south for him (based on the change of style on offense). The same thing happened with Fields. I’m not saying it is Melo’s fault, just that Melo’s style will trump anyone else’s style of play because he dominates the ball as much as anyone in the NBA.

  108. I think THCJ will tell you how Melo has not necessarily made his teammates better shooters, or scorers, during his time in the NBA. And if that’s not what you meant by forcing an unbalanced defense, then I’m not sure exactly what he does.

  109. Will the Thrill: Amar’e was great once Felton learned how to run the pick and roll, also. It wasn’t until Melo came along until things started going south for him (based on the change of style on offense). The same thing happened with Fields. I’m not saying it is Melo’s fault, just that Melo’s style will trump anyone else’s style of play because he dominates the ball as much as anyone in the NBA.

    Things started going south for Amare when there was no one the roster who could spoon-feed him dunks, his only real asset. Has little to do with Melo, everything to do with no Felton or Nash.

  110. Will the Thrill: I think THCJ will tell you how Melo has not necessarily made his teammates better shooters, or scorers, during his time in the NBA. And if that’s not what you meant by forcing an unbalanced defense, then I’m not sure exactly what he does.

    That’s nonsense, really. Melo was always the reason his teams had any chance in the half-court. Denver had great running second units, which put up efficient numbers until they faced teams that slowed them down or situations where they couldn’t run.

    Anthony Carter, Ty Lawson, Earl Boykins always ran very efficient second units with Melo on the bench, but it really didn’t tell much of a story.

    Predominately Denver created thier open shots on offense, sans Iverson, from Melo’s prescence.

  111. Felton obviously didn’t get the ball to Amar’e as well as Nash, because he just isn’t as good of a passer and it showed in Amare’s TS%, but he still showed he can be just as efficient as Melo with an average (slightly above?) passing point guard.

  112. wow, that is a really stupid take on Amare, not even worth rebutting except for:

    “one of the great space eaters of all-time”

    who was mostly eating Ring-Dings and Ho-Hos by that point.

  113. jon abbey: wow, that is a really stupid take on Amare, not even worth rebutting except for:“one of the great space eaters of all-time”who was mostly eating Ring-Dings and Ho-Hos by that point.

    What does Amare do well beside hit open jump shots in rythym on the catch and finish in semi-transition/p/r? Is he not one of the worst rebounders/defenders among big men in the NBA?

    While an awful p/r defender, wherever Shaq played, team defense improved. Not even his ability to clog the paint made a team Amare played on decent defensively.

  114. The difference of stat: say the coach grows a few and decides to bench the starters until the last game of the season. And plays only the rooks. Yes, to make a point. The difference between stat and the rest is that when the coach finally reinsert the “crew” stat won’t feel hurt while the rest of the cry babies will. Who would u want on ur team than?

  115. Maybe the reason is because Amar’e has been coached by D’antoni for most of his career? And the coach that replaced him in PHX pretty much followed in his footsteps? I’m not saying that Amar’e is good defensively at all because he’s not, he’s bad. But I’m sure you can have a team that is “decent” on defense with Amar’e at PF.

    ruruland: What does Amare do well beside hit open jump shots in rythym on the catch and finish in semi-transition/p/r? Is he not one of the worst rebounders/defenders among big men in the NBA?

    While an awful p/r defender, wherever Shaq played, team defense improved.Not even his ability to clog the paint made a team Amare played on decent defensively.

  116. Melo +/- offense (on court/ off-court)

    2011: +19.8 on court
    2010:+.7 )Den, +4.6 NY
    2009: +4.6
    2008: +7.6
    2007: +1.3
    2006: +6.6
    2005: +3

    Amare
    11: -21.3
    10: +5.2
    9: +1.9
    8: -3.3
    7: +11.4 (Nash was +15.5 and he shared 75 % of minutes)
    6: +3.4 (Nash 12.5)
    5: Injured

  117. +/- offense has way too much to do with the team than the individual player to be conclusive, and we all knew Amar’e didn’t have a good 2011 because of switching the style of play, or not having a passing PG, whichever you like.

  118. did Amare’s detractors not see how well he played time and again in the postseason, even when matched up head to head against someone like Duncan?

  119. Amare’s +/- success has always been tied to his pt guard. Melo’s played with all kinds of pgs and supporting casts, and whenever Melo has led his team in usage (non-Iverson years) his +/- success is because he was the guy.

    Those numbers are also more misleading when you consider Melo’s always played on teams whose benches were at least as good as, if not better than its starters (JR Smith, Lawson, Andersen, Najera, Boykins, etc)

  120. Will the Thrill: +/- offense has way too much to do with the team than the individual player to be conclusive, and we all knew Amar’e didn’t have a good 2011 because of switching the style of play, or not having a passing PG, whichever you like.

    And I’m telling you that when we start to consider how Phx teams were constructed and how Denver teams were constructed, it becomes even more lopsided.

    George Karl never played his best players to start the game, always liked having a very good bench. Jr Smith was often the second or third best player in Denver, but came off the bench, so did Nene for three years.

    D’Antonti uses a very limited bench and his team’s success has always been tied to his pg— which is where (not coincidentally) Amare’s success is tied to.

  121. jon abbey: did Amare’s detractors not see how well he played time and again in the postseason, even when matched up head to head against someone like Duncan?

    Amare was amazing before the knee injury, but again, a huge amount of success in amare’s early prime is attributable to one of the greatest passing and probing point guards in NBA history.

    Remember that when Amare blew up in 04-05 in the Spurs series, Popovich opted to defend the Suns perimeter shooters as opposed to clogging the paint and jamming the p/r. thus, the insane playoff numbers from a guy who was a physical freak– obviously no longer the case.

  122. Also- Amar’e had a poor rebounding year last year but his career rebounds per 36 is 9.2- Better than Dirk, both Gasols, Nene, etc… Not a great rebounder, but pretty average, certainly not awful.

  123. ruruland: a guy who was a physical freak– obviously no longer the case.

    based on what, four games? because he was unstoppable against the Celtics in the playoffs last year before getting hurt.

    and sure, Nash would help anyone, but Baron will help him (and everyone) a lot more than Toney, who never has been a distributor.

  124. he does look terrible right now, but I can’t say I’m too worried about him in general.

  125. Just to make sure we’re clear on this, the following things are true–

    1. Teams with Stoudemire as their offensive #1 have been to 2 conference finals and been a #1 seed; teams with Anthony as their #1 have been to 1 CF and been a #2 seed.
    2. Stoudemire has been the best scorer in the NBA; his ’07’-08 TS% (65.6%!) is a full nine points higher than any Melo ever put up (also ’07-’08). Anthony’s TS% has never been better than above-average and has generally resided at average, so it’s hard to call him anything close to one of the NBA’s best scorers.
    3. Anthony is a good passing/rebounding 3; Stoudemire is a mediocre passing/rebounding 4.
    4. Anthony and Stoudemire are both very poor defenders, as can be demonstrated in a variety of ways. Stoudemire may be a bit worse.
    5. Denver has gotten better since junking Anthony, while Phoenix has gotten worse since losing Stoudemire, and while obviously the difference has a lot to do with their replacements, neither was replaced with great players, so it’s hard to say either was single-handedly winning games.

    In short, they’re both good players who can (and have very recently been) the focal points of great teams, so long as those teams are constructed to mask their flaws and magnify their strengths. The current Knicks team does not seem to be constructed that way–and I find it hard to see how any team with both of them (especially earning max. salary) can be constructed that way, though perhaps that’ll be proven wrong yet through some coaching brilliance or synergistic miracle.

  126. Juany8:
    Also, are we going to pretend the Knicks were ever going anywhere with Gallinari and Raymond Felton as their next best players after Stoudemire? People need to stop acting like the Knicks were going anywhere with the pre Melo group, even the mighty “Knuggets” that were supposedly much improved post Melo (and post Chauncey dribbling up to the 3 point line and shooting immediately offense) got beat easily by OKC in 5 games.

    The Knuggets were last season and are this season a legit contender. The Knicks, thus far, are not.

  127. Amare was never the No.1 in Phx and it’s completely preposterous to make that claim. That was Steve Nash’s show and that is indisputable. Nash made Amare.

    Amare’s TS had everything to do with D’Antoni’s system, which creates the space and semi-transition looks for Amare to thrive, as well as the aforementioned pg play.

    Dwight Howard has an incredible TS. Shoot, Joel Pryzbilla, Tyson Chandler, Ronny Turiaf, and Chris ANdersen etc. al consistently have had great TS percentages– are they great scorers?

    3 of the last 4 years Melo has had a higher TS than Kobe Bryant……. does that mean anything to you?

  128. yoda4554: The Knuggets were last season and are this season a legit contender. The Knicks, thus far, are not.

    Knuggets lost in 5 games in the playoffs primarily because they had no one to go to down the stretch. It’s a great George Karl team— deep, athletic, energetic, up=tempo, unselfish— but no way they can beat any of the top teams in a series.

  129. jon abbey: based on what, four games? because he was unstoppable against the Celtics in the playoffs last year before getting hurt.and sure, Nash would help anyone, but Baron will help him (and everyone) a lot more than Toney, who never has been a distributor.

    Amare is nowhere near what he was before the injury…… he was incredible before the knee injury

  130. tenebrous:
    The difference of stat: say the coach grows a few and decides to bench the starters until the last game of the season. And plays only the rooks. Yes, to make a point. The difference between stat and the rest is that when the coach finally reinsert the “crew” stat won’t feel hurt while the rest of the cry babies will. Who would u want on ur team than?

    You again? I had missed your scintillating insight.

  131. ruruland:
    Amare was never the No.1 in Phx and it’s completely preposterous to make that claim. That was Steve Nash’s show and that is indisputable. Nash made Amare.

    Amare’s TS had everything to do with D’Antoni’s system, which creates the space and semi-transition looks for Amare to thrive, as well as the aforementioned pg play.

    Dwight Howard has an incredible TS. Shoot, Joel Pryzbilla, Tyson Chandler, Ronny Turiaf, and Chris ANdersen etc. al consistently have had great TS percentages– are they great scorers?

    3 of the last 4 years Melo has had a higher TS than Kobe Bryant……. does that mean anything to you?

    Stoudemire always had the highest USG% on the Phoenix teams. He was their top scoring option. Stoudemire posted a similar TS% in NY w/o Nash prior to Melo’s arrival.

    Kobe, the past three years, has not been one of the best scorers in the NBA, which is okay because he’s a good all-around player otherwise (unlike Anthony). Dwight Howard, incidentally, was among the best scorers in the NBA last year, now that he can maintain a high USG% with the TS%. It’s much, much easier to stop Kobe than Howard; there are many more players who can take Kobe one-on-one than Howard.

    And sayin the Nuggests lost because they didn’t have a “closer” is small-sample-size nonsense. Every game in that Nuggets-Thunder series was close–a couple bounces go differently and it’s Denver-Dallas in the conference finals.

  132. Doug: You again? I had missed your scintillating insight.

    ty … regardless of what happens there r a few beasts on this team … :)

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