317 thoughts to “2011 Game Thread: Knicks @ Wizards”

  1. Reposting this since now this is the current thread

    I don’t mean to come off offensive saying this because it’s clear that most of us are passionate true fans, but this thought process of lowering expectations of the team because of how previous years have gone is bullshit. It’s a losers mentality. Not saying I don’t understand it or that it isn’t rational, it is just overly so. Do we really need to see the wounds to believe? (doubting thomas reference)
    Look, I’ll toss some things out that directly counter the “you’ve had an easy schedule.

    1) the Knicks added 10 new players this season, this was going to lead to a tough “get to know you” phase (hence the six game skid).They are gelled right now in a way that I didn’t think would come for a few more month at soonest.

    2) They have already overcome adversity- A six game skid is a tough thing for ANY team to overcome.And starting out with it is mentally tough as well.To bounce back 11-1 is simply amazing.So yeah being 14-9 may not be impressive to most people but look at the reaction to the heats five game streak over subpar competition.I think 11-1 is far more impressive.

    3) The schedule has not been as easy as it looks.Yes if you judge only by winning pct it’s easy to say they had it easy.But look closer.They have played more road games than anyone, AND (more importantly imo) they have played (and will play) more back to back games than anyone.I don’t care who the team is, back to backs and road games are tough.And I just don’t really feel like any of those other teams could have done better than what the Knicks have done.

    They’ve given you plenty of reason to believe, but I guess you can wait and inspect the wounds if you like.

  2. All I said in my previous post is that if we had started the season playing against the Bostons, Lakers, Spurs…we may have never had the chance to build confidence and momentum and the team may not have developed the same.

    I’m not taking anything away from what they have achieved. I’m happy. But it’s a fact that the schedule was easier. It’s not their fault and they took advantage of it, as they should.

  3. @ Spree

    This debate is completely pointless. No one is saying that the Knicks are a bad team that’s been overperforming. All we’ve said is that we’re a good team (ie: a playoff team) that’s been untested by other good teams.

    If that’s what you’re saying, good. But any projections so far that say the Knicks are better than these teams coming up is completely unfounded, and it’s just setting yourself up to get more upset if/when we lose to them.

  4. If they can go .500 over their next 10, we can dispense with all the disclaimers about their record.

  5. If we can win 5 of the next ten, which I think we should be able to do, our record would still be .575 which I’d be happy with.

  6. No one found my Phil Weber anecdote interesting about Lee? Huh. Takes a lot to impress this group. I was really saving that one. Reposted just in case…

    On that note, I have been waiting for the appropriate time to share this anecdote. This spring I was walking in the Meat Packing district on a beautiful spring evening. Who do I see standing in front of a pizza joint none other than Knicks asst coach Phil Weber. He was only too happy to have someone recognize him and want to stop and chat. He was really nice and, in fact, more open than I thought on his opinions about what the Knicks should do (get Rudy Gay and Amare) and what he thought of players. So at the time I was very into the idea of keeping Lee cuz I, like many of us, really loved him and liked the idea of keeping the home grown talent. So I asked Phil about Lee and whether he was worth keeping compared to some others he mentioned (specifically Amare). He was very candid. He said that Lee was a hard worker and a good offensive player. He also said very specifically that the staff felt that Lee absolutely dogged it on defense especially in defensive rotations because he did not want to lose his shot at getting rebounds and padding his stats. And he said that Lee had no defensive toughness at all and he did not see him developing that (he has played terrible D in GS btw). Bottom line was that the staff was not high on Lee as a complete player and they were certain that he shirked his D responsibilities in favor of getting rebounds. This was Phil Weber the Knicks number one assistant telling some random fan he met on the street. Wow I thought. The reason I did not post this before is frankly I thought it might get leaked out and I was waiting till after it mattered and until we were having a good Lee discussion (which I knew would come on the blog). Goes to show that stats just dont always tell the whole story. This is the honest truth.

  7. Spree8:
    this thought process of lowering expectations of the team because of how previous years have gone is bullshit. It’s a losers mentality.

    I agree 100%

    As a matter of fact, if the title must be the goal,
    this current team should win not less than 45-50 and envision a second round playoff. Then, you spend all your remaining cap space plus things like MLE and you are ready to CONTEND. Anything less than that should be considered as a failure.

    Instead you can live breathing and eating stats, dreaming stats, unaware of reality.

    btw
    The world outside usa cannot stand anymore small teams like san antonio having success. We want to see lakers and celtics. We want to see superteams. We hate your absurd para-communist cap rule. We don’t give shit about oklahoma or new orleans and we definitely miss NEW YORK.
    What the yankees would be with a cap system?? Will they end up with only a max player or two?

  8. That is interesting cgreene. Water under the bridge though. I think he is a class act, wish him nothing but the best, but I don’t think the Knicks are missing him much.

  9. I just can’t think that a Phil Collins intro bodes well for a team’s title hopes. I don’t remember the Bad Boy Pistons coming out to “Sussudio.”

  10. NYK Ewing: @ SpreeThis debate is completely pointless. No one is saying that the Knicks are a bad team that’s been overperforming. All we’ve said is that we’re a good team (ie: a playoff team) that’s been untested by other good teams.If that’s what you’re saying, good. But any projections so far that say the Knicks are better than these teams coming up is completely unfounded, and it’s just setting yourself up to get more upset if/when we lose to them.  

    Nobody is saying they are a bad team yet most people seem to think they are going to be 3-7 or 2-8 on this ten gamer. And I just don’t get it. I mean sure, it’s possible that they could do that. But it shouldn’t be what you think will happen. They have not given you a legimate reason to believe that would be the case. Most people are saying they think 3-7 but they HOPE for 6-4. I think 6-4 but HOPE for 8-2. Not because i’m stupid, but because I believe. I’m looking at a team that is playing as well as anyone (other than maybe Denver, San An, Boston).

    All I’m saying is that when you compare what we have done this season vs what those other teams have done this season I don’t think you should feel like we are not capable of winning. I mean some of you sound like we’ll have to STEAL some of those games. And I just disagree with it, and it’s the mindset of a fan that’s been beaten like a dog for years. How many fans of other teams out there would have an 11-1 12 game record and be thinking, man i really hope we can go 4-6.

    We’ve played the most road games, have the most road wins. Played the most back to backs. That stuff wasn’t that easy. It’s not like we’ve been as lucky as these guys.

    http://www.break.com/index/people-are-lucky-1964685

  11. Has anybody heard whether Wall or Blatche are playing tonight?

    I hate to be over zealous, but no Wall or Blatche = blowout. The only guys the Knicks seem to struggle against so far are fast PG’s and mobile big men.

  12. cgreene, maybe phil webber was f’ing with you? Seems like a classless thing to say about a great guy and hard worker – even if he/they really thought that.

    This team would be SO much better if Tinafey Mozgov could give us 20 tough, defensive, rebounding minutes.

  13. Hello all, long-time reader, first time poster.
    @cgreene great post about your talk with Phil Weber. I’m glad to hear I’m not the only one who wondered how such an athletic guy could never block, or attempt to block a shot.

  14. A little trivia that has probably been read recently by most of you but just in case it hasn’t been I’ll post it.

    When Willie Naulls set the Knicks record for consecutive 30 point games it went mostly unnoticed because of a spectacular feat which overshadowed Naulls performance that happened in the same game. What was that feat?

  15. @22 I think Weber was just being honest with a fan who (hopefully) he thought knew a lot about the team. I actually think what he meant was “I know everyone loves David and he’s a good offensive player but what you don’t know is that he could be better on defense but chooses not to for the sake of stats.” Wouldn’t be the first time a player did this and, frankly, it did not make me like Lee less. Kinda of like @24 is saying. Guy is athletic as hell. Seems like he doesn’t work that hard on that end of the court. Anyway hope it was enlightening.

    12-1 tonight or letdown? I’m nervous. Wall and Blatche playing.

  16. League Pass needs to take a cue from mlb.tv and let me choose my feed. I need more Clyde in my life!

  17. Wow, so far both teams look terrible. No one can make a free throw, Stoudamire just lost track of the ball in his own hands, and everyone just looks flat

  18. Chandler vs. Blatche will be an interesting matchup for sure. I’m not sure I like that, but what else do we have?

    Felton dropping dimes!

  19. PEW PEW PEW

    And the game is tied.

    Felton is bringing up the ball so fast, he’s on a retreating McGee’s heels every time.

  20. Spree8nyk8: A little trivia that has probably been read recently by most of you but just in case it hasn’t been I’ll post it.When Willie Naulls set the Knicks record for consecutive 30 point games it went mostly unnoticed because of a spectacular feat which overshadowed Naulls performance that happened in the same game.What was that feat?  

    The answer before I forget to say it was Wilt Chamberlain had his 100 point game in that game.

  21. tastycakes: League Pass needs to take a cue from mlb.tv and let me choose my feed.I need more Clyde in my life!  

    I have league pass and watch the games on MSG, always getting the Knick feed.

  22. Arenas having a great start. Is it just me or does he usually kill us? Any stats to back that assumption up?

  23. Z:
    I have league pass and watch the games on MSG, always getting the Knick feed.  

    Your getting the Knicks feed on League Pass Broadband?

  24. The Wiz players have been taking a lot of low percentage shots. Hopefully the Knicks don’t start chucking, and it’s an easy 10-point win.

  25. CGreene thanxs for the anecdote which is in line with what was wondered about here after Lee said something to the effect of giving a hard foul made no sense b/c he would be in foul trouble and who would be there to play C.

  26. Yeah, Doug, I noticed that too, pretty funny, the Wash announcers are acting like there’s not a game on! BTW what was Amare’s T for?

  27. WAS announcers some of the only broadcasters in Western world that pronounce Yi Jianlian’s name correctly.

  28. If you had to watch Thornton and Yi every night, you’d lose interest too!

    No MSG in Austin TX, I am at the mercy of the League Pass Broadband powers that be.

  29. Douglas will probably get a ton of minutes tonight, either on Wall (who doesn’t look 100% still) or Arenas.

    I’d like to see AR get some more minutes as well, against Blatche or McGee

  30. Weird lineup to close the quarter:

    Felton, Douglas, Williams, Chandler, Turiaf. Not a lot of offensive options.

  31. 6 TO’s and 0-4 from downtown = Knicks losing after one quarter.

    My boxscore says Felton only has 1 assist. That doesn’t seem right.

  32. These are the worst announcers i’ve heard this season. The one guy apparently can’t even see the game. He’s made about 4 errors already to where he’s had to be corrected.

    Arenas with the steal….no that was Young

    Offensive foul!…..no he stepped out

    What happened? The ball went over the backboard….

  33. Z: Weird lineup to close the quarter:Felton, Douglas, Williams, Chandler, Turiaf. Not a lot of offensive options.  

    I think they were just trying to get out of the quarter with no foul trouble and getting a little rest in to close the quarter.

  34. Knicks looking rather uninterested in keeping the win streak going.

    Mosgov just watched McGee rebound that ball behind him.

  35. Screw it. Let’s see if Ray can run 48 a game. That’ll make sure he becomes less efficient.

    Guess this is the game we’ve been waiting for. Lifeless, listless poor shooting.

  36. Michael Cline: Knicks looking rather uninterested in keeping the win streak going.
    Mosgov just watched McGee rebound that ball behind him.  

    Knicks started looking disinterested once the bench starting coming into the game.

  37. Wizards up 10 and the announcers still can’t find anything to talk about connected to the basketball game

  38. Mosgov just showed his best hands of the season on a pass that wasn’t intended for him lol

  39. Damn it Douglas! 4 on 2 and he pulls up for a three and then can’t get back to at least foul Wall. PUTRID!

  40. Nice decision by TD on the fastbreak, pull up for 3 and miss it which leads to a fastbreak dunk for the Wizards.

    Moz was playing well, wouldve given him some more minutes.

  41. Robert Silverman: I think we need Raymond back in, coach  

    Why put Felton back in and run him into the ground if we are going to play this apathetically? Might as well rest him for the tough stretch ahead.

  42. Michael Cline:
    Why put Felton back in and run him into the ground if we are going to play this apathetically? Might as well rest him for the tough stretch ahead.  

    because a win against Washington counts as much as one v. Boston/Miami/etc.

  43. Chandler the only bright spot so far for me. 4-4 for nine points. Stat’s stats (like that?) might look good, but it’s been ugly.

    McGee just traveled and double dribbled in the same step and got a foul out of it. Refs are killing me!

  44. Michael Cline: Chandler the only bright spot so far for me. 4-4 for nine points. Stat’s stats (like that?) might look good, but it’s been ugly.McGee just traveled and double dribbled in the same step and got a foul out of it. Refs are killing me!  

    I think you meant to say: “Refs iz HOSING us!!!” And I agree…

  45. Robert Silverman:
    because a win against Washington counts as much as one v. Boston/Miami/etc.  

    True only in the fact that it will register as a “W”…which I suppose is a good enough reason. But I’d gladly take a loss here to win against Boston. So I don’t know what to do with that statement

  46. Michael Cline: gladly take a loss here to win against Boston. So I don’t know what to do with that statement Michael Cline

    Because the probability of a win against DC is a helluva lot higher

  47. ARE YOU KIDDING ME REF! DID YOU NOT JUST SEE WALL SMASH DOUGLAS!!??

    Chandler is really stroking it from that corner!

  48. Not loving the way they played in the 1st half, but if they keep it close, it’ll come down to: we have Amare and they don’t. Isn’t it nice to have a real star that’s more often than not the best player on either team?

  49. If this was NBA2K11 and fatigue was off so the Knicks starting 5 could play all 48 minutes, they would win tonight by 20.

  50. Knicks defending Amar’e better than the Wiz are…they just aren’t getting him any looks.

  51. If they don’t get Douglas off the court they are going to lose this game. It’s not just the refs, a huge chunk of it is douglas making bad decision after bad decision.

  52. Not the best shot by Felton there – ugly shot with too much time left on the clock.

    Still, I’m quite confident that they close it out.

    What’s up with Gallo looking so tired? Dude’s 22!

  53. Brian Cronin: What’s up with Gallo looking so tired? Dude’s 22!  

    He’s like totally out, like partying at like the hottest clubs all night, you know, like with Michelle Trachtenberg. Duh!

  54. If toney douglas does not play in the fourth knicks win easily, I don’t care if they bring in Roger Mason, please for the love of god keep douglas off the court

  55. Brian Cronin: Not the best shot by Felton there – ugly shot with too much time left on the clock.Still, I’m quite confident that they close it out.What’s up with Gallo looking so tired? Dude’s 22!  

    Gallo was out late shtupping that girl from Gossip Girls last night

  56. I was watching that play develop, chuckling a bit, because it was like “you know Amar’e is taking that shot no matter what.” And he did.

  57. when Gallo is incorporated in the offense and moves without the ball, we’re a much better offensive team.

  58. when Gallo is incorporated in the offense and moves without the ball, we’re a much better offensive team.

    In general, I agree, but when the one-on-one play of Felton and Amar’e is clicking, they sure look awesome as well.

  59. Brian Cronin:
    In general, I agree, but when the one-on-one play of Felton and Amar’e is clicking, they sure look awesome as well.  

    oh sure, when they’re playing well it just flows naturally.

  60. BigBlueAL: The Wizards broadcast is so uninterested in this game.  

    Is it just me or it looks like they absolutely hate Blatche?

    I mean, I don’t blame them, I would too if he played for us, but it kinda looks like every play they expect him to do something stupid.

  61. cgreene: Man if TD was any good we’d be really good  

    You know, I understand Toney isn’t the greatest of PG’s, but watch him on defense, he’s incredibly tenacious. I don’t have a problem with his effort tonight.

  62. Spree8nyk8:
    yeah like 4 of those steals he immediately jacked up a miss.  

    Spree, don’t be hatin’. He’s just doin’ what Toney Douglas do

  63. d-mar:
    You know, I understand Toney isn’t the greatest of PG’s, but watch him on defense, he’s incredibly tenacious. I don’t have a problem with his effort tonight.  

    Ill say that for TD, he always brings 100% effort every game.

  64. I’m pretty sure if you isolated 30 seconds after each of the TD steals we are probably huge negative for that time period.

  65. Ball movement is really really good. And Gallo is a big part of that. Can’t quantify how much that means to this team every night. He’s a very smart and unselfish player.

  66. Wall really needs to develop a mid-range jumper. Also with their talent and a supposedly good offensive coach in Flip Saunders the Wizards really look bad on offense.

  67. BTW the Knicks D in the 2nd half has been pretty damn good. The usual no effort on D in the 1st half but very good D in the 2nd half performance tonight.

  68. If we win tonight, it’s because of outstanding play by our forwards. Our guards have all been off, and Amare is good, but not great. Gallo and Wil have been fantastic.

    So…

    Do we really need to trade for Melo?

    NO!!!

  69. OK, I take it back about our guard play. Fields is playing all 48. (Or at least all 48 he’s in for…) Kid doesn’t quit and finds a way to contribute before the night is over. Wow.

    Watching the game tonight, do you want him or Wall?

  70. Robert Silverman: Strike that, one rebound  (Quote)

    Back in the third quarter, it looked like it could happen…probably will.

    Again, it’s our forward play that’s stood out as excellent. Amare is very good, but lots of TOs and not quite at his best. Felton hasn’t quite been happening. Wil and Gallo have played great.

  71. Of course I complain about the refs and the Knicks have so far taken 12 ft’s to the Wizards 4 in the 4th quarter.

  72. I’m no longer nervous when we get down by double digits to a team like WAS.

    Love this team.

  73. Not to be a gloomy Gus, but Felton had his first bad game since before this streak began

  74. Just goes to show you that stats don’t tell the whole story. Amar’e has double digit turnovers yet carries them on his back to a win. He’s getting closer and closer to being worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as David Lee.

  75. Robert Silverman: Not to be a gloomy Gus, but Felton had his first bad game since before this streak began  

    sign for optimism,
    ahh, if only we had a big guy à la perkins……….

  76. WC always seems a bit depressed, he never struts after a good play; I love humility, but I guess advertising does pay. I think he’s turning into a great player and is still underappreciated by many.

  77. I actually would have to take the contrarian view of this game….really it was by FAR the worst game the Knicks played during the past 12 out of 13 game win streak and yet they found a way to grind out the victory….a la knicks teams of the 90s…when they didn’t have their best stuff….granted, if they put up a game like this next week they are doomed, but I don’t expect to see that…felton played arguably his worst game as a Knick and they still gutted out a 7th straight road victory….we can’t expect perfection….I was fearing a “let down” loss prior to “dream week” and they still made it happen…can’t really complain all that much.

  78. I might root for the Lakers vs the Bulls tonight, CHI is gonna be our primary competition for the 4/5 slot, along with ATL!

  79. Z-man: Just goes to show you that stats don’t tell the whole story.Amar’e has double digit turnovers yet carries them on his back to a win.He’s getting closer and closer to being worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as David Lee.  

    LOL.

    This actually feels surreal to me a little bit. It’s weird I thought that once they were decent again that I would get more nervous for games but actually much less. I am relaxed kind of like the team is. Pinch me.

  80. Landry had a very positive effect on the game in the second half, his 2 threes were HUGE as were his two strong drives leading to free throws. This was a game decided by intangibles as much as any.

  81. 15-9. That’s the kind of record that could cause a van Gundy to call it quits…man, that was a bad decade.

    Gallo leads the NBA in charges drawn.

  82. As much as I love Gallo, there really is no way he could play with melo unless he backed him up at the 3….can’t see gallo playing 4….which means in d’antoni’s system he would play 8 mins a game as melo would play 40…the issue is that they will need gallo[s shooting with melo and stoudemire up front and a lack of real perimeter threats….not sure what they could do with gallo…even if they sign melo outright next year I think they would have to trade gallo for either another long-range, consistent bomber at the guard position or a burly, charles oakley-type bruiser up front, which they sorely lack…anyone see how gallo fits into this team long-term if melo is acquired?

  83. also, another forgotten story is that chicago is almost definitely going to win its division, earning it at worst a 4 seed, which means in order for the knicks to have a fighting chance of getting out of first round we have to finish with a better record than ATLANTA…chicago is not really a major menace…no way we finish ahead of orlando, miami, boston or chicago (given the fact that it will win the central).

  84. rama: 15-9.That’s the kind of record that could cause a van Gundy to call it quits…man, that was a bad decade.Gallo leads the NBA in charges drawn.  

    Really? Great stat I am very happy about what I am seeing out of a 22 year old Gallo.

    You know, yes, Amar’e and Felton have been rocks in this streak, but two players does not a 12-1 streak make. Kudos to the role players for not dragging the team down… Chandler, Gallo, and Fields have been a very formidable unit for us.

  85. art vandelay: also, another forgotten story is that chicago is almost definitely going to win its division, earning it at worst a 4 seed, which means in order for the knicks to have a fighting chance of getting out of first round we have to finish with a better record than ATLANTA…chicago is not really a major menace…no way we finish ahead of orlando, miami, boston or chicago (given the fact that it will win the central).  

    I don’t agree until I see how we do in this next stretch of 10 games.

  86. Knicks conference record now 10-4. Amazing that the last time the Knicks made the playoffs in 2004 the 4th seed was 42-40, the Knicks currently are 15-9 and are 6th. East is getting alot tougher and should be that way for next few years.

  87. I have to say that if we could get a skilled defensive big man like Varajeo (I know it’s a painful contract) that we could really make noise THIS YEAR.

    On another note even though his shooting was bad I thought MDA used Douglas well tonight. It seemed like he used him more in combination with Felton and mixed Landry in more with the 2nd team so TD wasn’t forced to be the play maker. He had easier passes and got some assists.

  88. Boy that was an ugly win- how does Amar’e have 11 turnovers and still put up 36!! Bench play looks like a real problem going forward- TD play at both ends has to improve if the Knicks are going to get through this next stretch- he takes so many bad fouls out on the perimeter and gives up too much penetration by over-pressuring the ball and the less said about his decision-making on offense the better. Still, of the bench players he’s the one guy who can be a difference maker so he needs to get his 20+ minutes and try to get his game turned around. Also the offense now seems completely discombobulated when Turiaf is the game- he just runs around setting screens, getting the ball and pitching it right back to whoever passed it to him- those passes to cutters that were working well before the injury have disappeared- need to get back to that Turiaf’s going to play more minutes.

    Really nice game by Gallo on the defensive end- when he’s active on D he’s can be a real plus- hopefully he can sustain the effort level.

  89. Chicago is handling the Lakers. The Lakers have not been playing well at all for a 6 or 7 game stretch.

  90. What do you think the Vegas odds would have been on the Knicks being the first team to 10 road wins??

  91. I know I’m way ahead of myself and I know rankings mean nothing, but if the Knicks can beat Denver, I think they could sneak into the top 10 on Espn’s rankings. It would kill Marc Stein to do it. Of course if they lose, Stein will drop them to 19.

  92. turnovers have to be the most misleading stat around, they’re quite often the fault of one person and sometimes they’re assigned to the wrong person altogether. for them to be accurate, someone would need to go through the game later and assign fractional parts for each one to whichever player/s were actually at fault.

    this streak has been pretty remarkable, very curious to see how the next few weeks go. I’m pretty pessimistic, but hope to be pleasantly surprised.

  93. I know I’m way ahead of myself and I know rankings mean nothing, but if the Knicks can beat Denver, I think they could sneak into the top 10 on Espn’s rankings. It would kill Marc Stein to do it. Of course if they lose, Stein will drop them to 19.

    I was just thinking the other day that the last time I thought about the Knicks getting into the Top 10 in Stein’s Power Rankings, they had Camby on the team. So it was interesting to note tonight that the Camby Knicks were the last Knicks team to win seven straight.

  94. whoops, I meant “quite often not the fault of one person”.

    and sacks are much easier to properly credit.

  95. Let’s take the Nuggets position by position.
    PG Felton vs Billups – at worst a draw, maybe slight edge Knicks
    SG Fields vs Afflalo – draw
    SF Gallo vs Melo – edge Nuggets
    PF Chandler vs Sheldon Williams – edge Knicks
    C Stat vs Nene – edge Knicks
    Bench (Douglas, Ronny, Williams, Moz) vs (Harrington, Ely, Smith, Lawson) – edge Nuggets

    No reason why we aren’t a better team than the Nuggets minus Martin and Birdman.

  96. Lol post-midnight fail. That was obviously not a video.

    Another thing: I think it’s BS that each division leader gets a guaranteed top 4 seed for the playoffs. I understand the rationale in the NFL, where you play the teams in your division a much larger % of the time, but in the NBA, you play all in-conference teams 4 times (sometimes 3 or 5) and all out-of-conference teams twice.

  97. Robert Silverman: Wonder if MSG’ll throw together an Al Harrington tribute video  

    Only if it includes the Clipper game and the Memphis game where he got the rim hanging technicals that lead to us losing each game. Oh and the entire montage must be set to the Fraggle Rock theme song.

  98. Can you imagine if Isiah was still coaching or GM of the Knicks and they were 15-9?? Dolan would give him a lifetime contract.

  99. BigBlueAL: Can you imagine if Isiah was still coaching or GM of the Knicks and they were 15-9??Dolan would give him a lifetime contract.  

    “Significant Progress,” indeed

  100. Man, K-blogger is on fire. Amazing what a few wins does for attendance…

    Amare had his first triple double of his knicks career. What do you call a triple double with turnovers? Still, hard to question his impact on this game…

    As for Fields, my man crush grows and grows…

  101. Owen: Man, K-blogger is on fire. Amazing what a few wins does for attendance…Amare had his first triple double of his knicks career. What do you call a triple double with turnovers? Still, hard to question his impact on this game…As for Fields, my man crush grows and grows…  

    Owen! The prodigal son returns…

    And a triple-double that includes turnovers is called a, “Cripple Double.”

    (rim-shot)

  102. Oh, and the new phrase coined several threads back should go into wide usage here: “Stoudemized” :-D (rhymes with sodomized, of course)

  103. Peter87: Oh, and the new phrase coined several threads back should go into wide usage here:“Stoudemized” :-D (rhymes with sodomized, of course)  

    Erm, I respectfully disagree. Violently sexual/rape references are never a good idea

  104. Never going to understand Hollingers gorilla math. Knicks win 7 straight Miami wins 7 straight both teams only played against 1 solid team during that stretch. Yet over the last 4 wins the Knicks have fallen from 12 to 14. And Miami has gone from 12th to 1st. The two teams are seperated by 1 game and NY has played 3 more road games and yet they are 1st and we are 14th!

    Never going to understand that.

  105. Spree8nyk8: Never going to understand Hollingers gorilla math.Knicks win 7 straight Miami wins 7 straight both teams only played against 1 solid team during that stretch.Yet over the last 4 wins the Knicks have fallen from 12 to 14.And Miami has gone from 12th to 1st.The two teams are seperated by 1 game and NY has played 3 more road games and yet they are 1st and we are 14th!Never going to understand that.  

    Its mostly about point differential.

  106. I mean I do understand the things he says go into the formula, what I’m saying is that I disagree with any formula that is going to put a 16-8 team #1 and a 15-9 team #14.

    I saw his little spin about how his formula predicted San Antonio beating Dallas when Dallas was 9 games better. I’d love to know how it’s done in other series. Because I think it’s not too tough to pick San Antonio over dallas in most playoff series. Wondering how many playoff series it predicted Boston to win last year?

  107. one completely underrated aspect of this game was how smart WC played today.

    he shot 7-9, got 8 rebounds, only 1 turnover, and didn’t seem to force a single bad shot all night.

    that’s the kind of efficient game we’ll need when Amare is turning the ball over too much, it kinda balances the other aspect of Amare’s impact in the game.

  108. Bruno Almeida: one completely underrated aspect of this game was how smart WC played today.he shot 7-9, got 8 rebounds, only 1 turnover, and didn’t seem to force a single bad shot all night.that’s the kind of efficient game we’ll need when Amare is turning the ball over too much,it kinda balances the other aspect of Amare’s impact in the game.  

    You beat me to the punch! I was just going to post how great WC has played all year, how he is basically shooting the lights out taking his highest volume ever, despite some high-profile posters here insisting that he should shoot less and that age 22 he was unlikely to improve his shooting much, that he was soft and dumb, etc.

    There has also been skepticism expressed about the “superstar effect” on average players. Chandler, Felton and Gallo are all playing to career high PER and Fields is in the ROY running. Maybe it’s all coincidental, that these guys are all just hitting their stride (Felton had already improved significantly last year, WC and Gallo are a year older, more experienced, healthier, etc.) but I think playing alongside a superstar having an MVP-type year thus far takes a load of pressure off of the other players, literally and figuratively.

    PS, that block by Amar’e on Wall after his turnover, wow!

  109. Robert Silverman:
    Erm, I respectfully disagree. Violently sexual/rape references are never a good idea  

    Sodomy does not mean rape or violent. It just means something was stuck in a hole –for sexual pleasure– which is not designed for sex. I’m not saying Stoudamized is an artful term, but sodomy does not default to violence or rape.

  110. @234

    I agree 100%, and I think it’s also due to a return to relevance.

    WC and Gallo have been in NY for a while now, and they were on some VERY disfunctional teams, WC getting the last of Isiah era and Gallo the start of Walsh era…

    this is their first time being on a team with real chances, a team that has true veteran leadership, and this is bound to motivate them.

  111. What if we switch from ‘Stoudemized’ to ‘Madison Square Mire’?

    It would please trannies, grannies and everyone in between!

    :-)

  112. I had to copy and paste this from the comments section of a NY Post article today about the Knicks hiring a nutritionist, it made me laugh out loud:

    “The Knicks have employed Heidi Skolnik , who’s worked for the Giants for 20 years, to consult on nutrition with the players. She was in the locker room last night, laptop out, interviewing Eddy Curry.

    Skolnick reported that in her 20+ years as a nutritionist prior to interviewing Curry, she never before heard anyone answer every single question of her lengthy survey with the words, “Snickers bars” or “M&Ms”.”

  113. jon abbey: rumors that Anthony Randolph will be moved to Houston for the #1 pick we gave them last year:http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2010/12/11/2010-12-11_carmelo_anthony_in_knicks_sights_if_club_is_able_to_deal_anthony_randolph_for_a_.html  

    what up abbey!

    Not sure how I feel about this. I still think AR has the makings of a really great talent and could even be a great center in about 3 years.
    Plus, the trade I’m hearing would be the pick (AR), Gallo, Curry and either Fields or Douglas. That’s a lot to give up for a guy that might not even make us that much better…
    It seemed like Wilson and Gallo were both clickin’ pretty well last night.
    On the other hand, I just can’t see Dolan turning down anything for Melo due to the bump he would receive at the gate. In other words, I think it’s going to happen, but when?
    Also, imagine Walsh telling Dolan to just wait until free agency for Melo, and then having him wind up with the Nets?

  114. if it was AR, Chandler, Curry and Douglas I would do it.

    I hate like the idea of parting with Gallinari, and I too hate parting with Chandler, but I feel Melo is worth it.

    I say Chandler instead of Gallo because he is a restricted free agent next year and with the way he’s playing, he’ll have a lot of offers and we definitely will not have room to resign him, get Melo and still have a shot at a good center.

  115. It’ll never end.

    Can you guys just look at the stats, please? Pretty please? HE’S NOT WORTH $17M A YEAR. HE’S NOT GOING TO ALLOW US TO TAKE MORE SHOTS. WE ALREADY HAVE A TON OF EFFICIENT SCORERS — WHY WOULD WE NEED A PLAYER WHO JUST HOGS A LARGE SHARE OF HIS TEAM’S SHOTS AT AN EFFICIENCY WORSE THAN GALLO’S?

    WHO CARES THAT HE’S ON SPORTSCENTER EVERY NIGHT? WHO CARES THAT HE WAS THE #2 PICK IN THE DRAFT?

    USE YOUR BRAINS, PEOPLE.

    Okay, I’m done.

  116. The Honorable Cock Jowles: It’ll never end.Can you guys just look at the stats, please? Pretty please? HE’S NOT WORTH $17M A YEAR. HE’S NOT GOING TO ALLOW US TO TAKE MORE SHOTS. WE ALREADY HAVE A TON OF EFFICIENT SCORERS — WHY WOULD WE NEED A PLAYER WHO JUST HOGS A LARGE SHARE OF HIS TEAM’S SHOTS AT AN EFFICIENCY WORSE THAN GALLO’S?WHO CARES THAT HE’S ON SPORTSCENTER EVERY NIGHT? WHO CARES THAT HE WAS THE #2 PICK IN THE DRAFT?USE YOUR BRAINS, PEOPLE.Okay, I’m done.  

    Hey I agree with you THCJ, I just don’t think the organization (Dolan) will be able to pass up Melo for $$ reasons. I just think it’s going to happen even if it’s not the right move…

  117. It’s a shame, man. After waiting so long for a championship-quality team, it appears that we’re one good defensive 5 away from being a deep playoff team, but instead, we’ll be locked into an aging ESPN-star who chucks and doesn’t play defense — for, I dunno, the next five years. Hope you guys are looking forward to 2nd round playoff exits for a while…

  118. I basically agree, Cock. I think more of Melo than you do, but don’t see why we trade either Gallo or Chandler plus all of our cap room for him. First of all, I am not totally sold on Felton being the PG of the future. I wouldn’t want to shut the door on guys like Deron and CP3 before seeing Felton a little more vs. elite teams. That’s really the key for me.

    Amar’e has modified his game somewhat since he came here, and I think Melo is capable of doing the same. I disagree on your take on him defensively, he definitely does play D, just not a stopper. AR is really not good, and won’t be for a long time. If he can’t get into this rotation, that’s pretty damning.

    With Amar’e and Melo, you basically have Garnett and Pierce in their primes (more O, less D, but about the same overall impact.) The big problem is that Felton is not Rondo and Mozgov/Turiaf is not Perkins. So if you ditch either Gallo or Chndler, both of whom can become serious trade bait if they continue improving, or huge rotation players if you keep them, you lose the ability to build a team around them.

    I say we wait until later. If Melo really wants to play here, we might not have to give up anything to get him, and will have a ton of trade bait to fill in whatever needs we have.

  119. @cgreene: great anecdote/reporting! And thoughtful of you not to post until now, seriously. Wow thats devastating about Lee’s “stat” padding! Funny that no on on KB seemed to have alleged this before Greene unveiled this wild insight…

    I’m not sure about Melo. The best teams in the league — Lakers, Celts, Heat — can only be beaten with some good bigs. W a weak schedule we’re a top-five team in terms of offense. Our forwards are good, but i’m not sure if you upgrade from WC to Melo your defense gets much better.

    that said, while I love him, WC is probably not good enough a defender for us either to be a real contender. Neither is AR yet.

    But how can you not trust Donnie’s judgement these days!

  120. Also just saw this:

    In a separate matter, Memphis Grizzles guard O.J. Mayo could be on the move soon, and a source close to his family thinks he could end up with the Knicks.

    “They’re gonna move him next week and I think he’s gonna end up in New York,” the source said.

    I wouldn’t trade AR for him straight up. I’m in the “Mayo is overrated” camp.

  121. AR is in full sulk mode now. He may eventually figure out the game of basketball, but I agree with Z-Man, if he can’t crack this painfully short rotation, that’s not very encouraging. I don’t expect him to be contributing anytime soon, if ever.

    If we can get our first-round pick back from Houston, I say do it yesterday.

  122. @246

    Absolutely on the money!

    I have been saying it for a while: we don’t need more offense, we need to (urgently!) address our severe defensive problems. Winning against bad teams who play no defense themselves has masked our real liability, but it will be exposed sooner or later.

    We need a real center to guard the paint and rebound; after a big guy, we need to get some help for Felton at the PG position.

    Finally, decimating the team and capping-out for the next five years in order to get Carmelo is a throwback to the Isiah’s days. If the Knicks can get him clean as a free agent, great because he could be the go-to man when Amare needs a rest, but we still need the support cast that would (theoretically) make it possible for our (theoretical) stars (Amare & Melo) to shine.

    I say Chandler, Fields & Gallo should be untouchable until we find out how good or bad this Knicks team really is. We are about to find out.

    Besides, it’s not like the Nuggets and Carmelo Anthony have many options, when you really think about it. The Knicks, by virtue of their recent play (and assuming the can sustain the success), are firmly in the driver’s seat as of today.

  123. The Honorable Cock Jowles: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mayooj01.htmlDon’t worry, ess-dog. You’re just part of the “can read and interpret basic statistics” camp.(Also, the subject of an awesome Steve Malkmus song.)  

    Thanks THCJ and yes you’ve outed my name source!

    The only reason I can think of that Mayo’s name is out there (aside from the Mayo camp putting it out there) is that he can handle the point duties in a pinch, but he just has never been good at anything: shooting, rebounding, passing, defense… it’s all slightly below average or worse. Even his one year in college wasn’t that great. It’s all based on his high school rep. Would I take him for Mason Jr.? Sure, but that’s about it.

    And as far as Melo goes, it wouldn’t be the best trade, but I think we could still recover and field a top 4 team if we got some breaks, specifically if Felton keeps up his play, Melo can rein in the bad shots and if Mozgov or some other mystery big man can step up and play at a high level for us.
    The thing is, sometimes you can find a young Ben Wallace type on the cheap. Not saying it’s easy, and we already struck gold with Fields, but it could happen.
    A very thin bench would be a problem, but if you have Douglas, Turiaf and maybe can resign Chandler, that’s a start. Problem is, I’m not sure we can afford/keep Turiaf or Chandler next year… BUT we also have the option to let Mozgov walk, correct? So he could give us some wiggle room if needed.
    Just saying I bet Donnie could do something pretty good with a roster that had Melo on it if that was the way it had to be.

  124. Plus, the trade I’m hearing would be the pick (AR), Gallo, Curry and either Fields or Douglas.

    I think Donnie is waaaaaaaay too smart to make a trade like this. Denver has no leverage here, and their leverage is decreasing by the day. That’s actually the package that was probably too much to give even before Fields turned awesome. I’d give them AR, Curry, Douglas, and $3M Dolan Dollars and say that’s our final offer– and if you don’t take it by Feb 1 it’s AR and Curry for Melo, and Douglas is out of the deal. Otherwise we’ll take him in July and you get nothing. That’s actually not that horrible an offer- Curry for $ savings, 1 high-ceiling prospect in AR, and in TD, 1 already solid 6th-7th man with possibility of being a solid starter in this league.

    The side benefit of getting Melo before the trade deadline is that (assuming Bird rules still exist in the next CBA) we would be able to go over the cap to sign Chandler, who is looking to me like a keeper. Otherwise we’d have to renounce him and say goodbye in order to give Melo a contract befitting his ESPN-star status.

  125. I would trade for Mayo if we could get him for pennies on the dollar. I would not give up alot for him but his value is at an all time low. His first two seasons in the league I thought he showed real promise, he is a great three point shooter, a good defender, can take pg pressure off of Toney and is very young on a rookie contract. I don’t see him as a future starter but I could see him as a future rotation player coming in when Felton sat to give us better ball handling at the 2.

    He is playing terrible this year but I have faith, after his first two years, it’s a fluke. I think a late first or maybe any combo of Mason, Walker, Rautins, 2nd rounders, Azubuike would be fine.

    No Carmelo, maybe in the offseason, still question if even thats a good move but no need to make a huge move now.

  126. I agree with holding off on a Melo deal. Back when the Nets deal looked like it might happen, it did bother me some because I didn’t want to be the 2nd best team in the NY metro area. But after watching our team the last few weeks, I would take our current lineup any day over a lineup of Melo. Lopez and whoever else they put out there. That’s why I just can’t see Melo signing an extension with the Nets, they’d be a 40 win team at best, and that’s next year, this year they’re already in a deep hole record-wise. I think this current win streak has put Donnie in a great position, he can bide his time until the Nuggets become desperate, and if they do nothing, we grab Melo as a FA. The idea of Melo going to a team other than the Knicks doesn’t bother me all that much.

  127. Glad to see that most of you guys want to hold off on trading for Melo. I just don’t see how he could add that much to the 2nd highest-scoring team in the league, and it certainly wouldn’t be worth giving up Gallo and/or Chandler (although I’d be ok with either of Frank’s Trades @254)

    And I hadn’t even thought of the money situation — we need to leave that cap space open for a rock solid #5 (or to re-sign Ronny!)

  128. I’m not the hugest Melo fan either, but I’m willing to take one step back now to make a genuine title run in the next few years. people need to keep in mind that Melo coming makes it decidedly more likely that Chris Paul will come the following year.

    and I love Amare and always have, but he is not going to be the best player on a title team. what he can possibly be is one of a big two or three, like Boston had with Garnett/Pierce/Allen (none of whom are genuine #1s on their own, and I don’t care what stats say about Garnett in Minnesota).

    anyway, it doesn’t really matter what we think, so no use getting too worked up about it either way.

  129. *breath*
    Okay. OJ Mayo would be a nice back up for the Knicks, and who knows? He might just work really well in D’Antoni’s system…
    I’m not sure I like his salary, however. I’m also not sure who the Knicks would move for him.

    I really don’t want to give up any of our rotation guys right now. But Melo is very good.
    Yet Gallo is way more efficient at 22 years of age. And WC is also much more efficient, scores about 5 points less per 36, but gets a block and a half more. Carmelo gets more steals per 36 and their boards are about equal. WC is better from 3.
    The big difference is Carmelo gets to the line more than twice as often as WC per 36 and they hit FTs as a comparable rate.
    Carmelo only takes about 5 more shots per game.

    What is surprising to me is how very similar they are. I mean, everyone talks about how great Carmelo is, but he averages more points per 36 because he takes 5 more shots per.

    In the Knicks offense, I like the balance they have. There is a clear 1st option and 2, 3 and 4 are efficient scorers who don’t require a lot of shots.

    I think that balance gets upset with Anthony. I mean he’s taking 19 shots per game, and his defense simply isn’t what WC’s is.

    I know people will disagree, but I think the Knicks team is better off without Carmelo. We are seeing some very young, relatively smartly priced Knicks players blossom. Carmelo is paid way, way more, and yet he’s not way, way better.

    I wouldn’t die if they made a trade, but I’m kind of hoping they don’t make a trade.
    If they can get him as a FA, fine. But both Gallo and WC are a better fit for this team, period. And there is such a good team dynamic right now.
    I agree with Walsh team dynamics can trump a superstar studded team.

    I suspect donnie won’t do a thing until he sees how this team does during this tough month. If they play well, the stock of every one of his players goes up. And if they play well, he may be inclined to do nothing.

    If they get…

  130. Mayo is a very good 3pt shooter and just turned 23 last month. He has some skills and I think would be a somewhat intriguing player to get. Playing with the Knicks could see his offensive efficiency really improve.

    However the thing is how much better is he than TD?? Like someone mentioned earlier if they can trade basically nothing for him I certainly think he would be worth the gamble.

  131. jon abbey: I’m not the hugest Melo fan either, but I’m willing to take one step back now to make a genuine title run in the next few years. people need to keep in mind that Melo coming makes it decidedly more likely that Chris Paul will come the following year.  (Quote)

    Six months ago I would have agreed with you. I was saying, OK, Bosh isn’t as good as Amare – isn’t even as good as Lee – but if he brings LeBron, he’s worth it.

    Now, I’m thinking: you know what brings great players? Money, and winning. Would this current team have trouble signing Chris Paul? Maybe. Would this team plus a great 5 have trouble signing Chris Paul. No freaking way.

    We do not need Melo. He will kill the cap and make it difficult to make further moves. He fills a need we do not have – strong forward play. Felton has been very good, but Deron and CP3 are better. We have a hole at the 5. WE DO NOT NEED MELO, because he can not fill those needs. As Frank O points out, he’s basically a much more expensive version of Chandler.

  132. Ben R: I would trade for Mayo if we could get him for pennies on the dollar. I would not give up alot for him but his value is at an all time low. His first two seasons in the league I thought he showed real promise, he is a great three point shooter, a good defender, can take pg pressure off of Toney and is very young on a rookie contract. I don’t see him as a future starter but I could see him as a future rotation player coming in when Felton sat to give us better ball handling at the 2.

    Good points Ben R. He is an athlete and a shooter, something D’Antoni loves. And he is a fairly good defender. I just don’t think he will respond well to being a bench player. But it might ultimately be worth it to take him over resigning Wil for what? 8, 9 mil? to give us more room next year.
    Short term, it’s not worth it, but if you flip TD and a 2nd for OJ for instance, and let WC walk at the end of the year (or put him in the Melo trade) you basically get a more tradable asset in OJ or a cheaper version of WC and or TD for next year (though not as good.) It’s really only worth it if you think Mayo is a lot better than he’s shown thus far.
    Chandler is basically less tradable because he’s expiring and will command more on the market next year, so he has to be dealt with or replaced somehow. Melo basically would replace Chandler (at a much larger price tag) and would make him expendable.
    A sign and trade would be possible next year with Chandler. In a perfect world, we’d keep him as our 6th man, but I’m not sure how that happens if we get Melo.

  133. As for Mayo, I wouldn’t die if we traded any or all of Douglas, Mason, and Walker for him. Mason is giving us nothing, Shawne is a more complete version of Walker, and Douglas…I don’t know if he’ll ever truly be solid. Too many mistakes on both sides of the ball.

  134. I understand Donnie’s create a “cohesive” unit approach and I think it is a solid gameplan for building a perennial contender…but let’s also not forget that, as efficiently as this team is playing offensively they still have their late-game lapses and have “survived” a number of games due to amare playing out of his head in 4th quarters against weak opponents without very good interior defense…I don’t think this is sustainable….bottom line is that in the past 20 years I can count 2 teams that won championships without a secondary star…houston in 94 and detroit in 04….that is it! like melo or don[t like melo, we need a star of his ilk to take the pressure off of STAT at the end of games against superior-quality opponents…as good as STAT is, he struggles to create his own shot at times, dribbles into traffic….I don’t think he can be the “closer” on a championship-caliber squad….I think that is the main motive behind a melo deal….we need a closer in crunch time.

  135. also, what plagued those Indiana and Knicks teams of the 90s was the lack of a reliable secondary star option in big teams (see Starks 94 finals game 7)

  136. “Now, I’m thinking: you know what brings great players? Money, and winning. Would this current team have trouble signing Chris Paul? Maybe. Would this team plus a great 5 have trouble signing Chris Paul. No freaking way.”

    you’re focusing on the basketball and ignoring the personal relationship part. Amare and Melo and Paul are buddies, much like LeBron and Wade.

  137. Long-time lurker here (even during the Isaiah years :))

    Two thoughts, that are not particularly original but I still want to say them:

    1. I’d rather root for the team as currently constructed than construct a “super-team” like Miami. Eff that.
    2. Melo wouldn’t make us better. He would just take shots away from more efficient scorers like Gallo and Fields.

  138. For the record, I am stating that as good as WC and Gallo are, neither of them individually is anywhere near the player that Carmelo Anthony is. I am happy with the team we have right now, but would not be disgusted with a trade that landed Carmelo unless it totally screwed any possibilities for further signings/trades.

    It was argued this summer that Lee was close to as good, as good, or even better than Amar’e, based on statistical measures of efficiency, etc. Now that we have seen the difference up close and personal, those arguments have been exposed for what they are, and aren’t. Melo is a superstar player, and deservedly so. He is also 26 years old (I don’t get why THCJ referred to him as “an aging ESPN star,” he’s just entering his theoretical prime, unless you buy that stats-based BS that players tend to peak at age 24. Melo is as much a beast at the 3 as Amar’e is at the 4. Yeah, there are flaws in his game, but he is always in the playoffs in the very deep Western Conference despite not having another big star on his team, ever (I don’t consider Billups, Camby, or a washed-up Iverson big stars.) He passes the ball (3.5 assists) enough to demonstrat that he can pass if he has someone to pass to.

    It is true that Amar’e and Melo might not complement each other perfectly, but that is a monster twosome for opposing defenses to reckon with in crunch time.

  139. If we get Melo, what position does he play? If he plays the four, essentially replacing Chandler and Gallo continues to start at the three then our balance stays relatively the same, because Melo scores in similar ways to Chandler. But can Melo guard fours? Can we get him and keep Gallo? How much would that scenerio actually improve the team?

    If he plays the three then we need a two. Because we would desperately need a shooter next to Melo and Amare and neither Fields or Chandler are good enough shooters to be our primary spot up shooters. We would also need a real five and I wonder how effective Amare would be with both a true five clogging up the lane and Melo clogging up the lane.

    I’m not saying Melo wouldn’t work but we would, most likely have to change our offense and get a totally different set of role players to properly compliment Melo and Amare. Unless we simply plug him in at the four and give him Chandler’s role in which case I question how much that actually improves the team.

  140. ltmurray: Glad to see that most of you guys want to hold off on trading for Melo. I just don’t see how he could add that much to the 2nd highest-scoring team in the league, and it certainly wouldn’t be worth giving up Gallo and/or Chandler (although I’d be ok with either of Frank’s Trades @254)And I hadn’t even thought of the money situation — we need to leave that cap space open for a rock solid #5 (or to re-sign Ronny!)  

    ltmurray,

    Instead of looking at raw points-per-game statistics, you should look at offensive efficiency rating.

    According to Basketball Reference:

    PTS/G: 107.7 (2nd of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 105.8 (26th of 30)
    SRS: -0.60 (15th of 30) ? Pace: 96.5 (3rd of 30)
    Off Rtg: 110.6 (5th of 30) ? Def Rtg: 108.7 (19th of 30)

    The offensive rating adjusts for pace. Since the Knicks play a very quick level, they generate more possession opportunities for both themselves and the opposing team. So, adjusted for pace, they are the 5th best offense in the league, not the 2nd.

    The same goes for defense. even though they give up the 26th most points in the league, it’s really not as bad as it looks: adjusted for pace, we’re closer (as a recent post asserted) to the middle of the pack (19th).

    The reality is that Carmelo is not terribly efficiency, and I don’t think that having Amar’e is going to change his “shooter” mentality. He’s going to keep taking high risk, 18-foot fadeaways and the like, because that’s what he’s been doing for the last eight years as an extremely talented athlete surrounded by fawning coaches and other various Yes-men. It’s a cap nightmare waiting to happen.

  141. @269 D’Antoni’s system blurs the traditional positions. Amar’e plays the 4 or 5. Chandler, Gallo and Melo are all 3’s butcan play the 2,3, or 4 in this system; Gallo is, of the three, the least versatile, imo. Still, I don’t think position-wise there is an insurmountable problem.

  142. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    ltmurray,Instead of looking at raw points-per-game statistics, you should look at offensive efficiency rating.
    According to Basketball Reference:PTS/G: 107.7 (2nd of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 105.8 (26th of 30)
    SRS: -0.60 (15th of 30) ? Pace: 96.5 (3rd of 30)
    Off Rtg: 110.6 (5th of 30) ? Def Rtg: 108.7 (19th of 30)
    The offensive rating adjusts for pace. Since the Knicks play a very quick level, they generate more possession opportunities for both themselves and the opposing team. So, adjusted for pace, they are the 5th best offense in the league, not the 2nd.The same goes for defense. even though they give up the 26th most points in the league, it’s really not as bad as it looks: adjusted for pace, we’re closer (as a recent post asserted) to the middle of the pack (19th).The reality is that Carmelo is not terribly efficiency, and I don’t think that having Amar’e is going to change his “shooter” mentality. He’s going to keep taking high risk, 18-foot fadeaways and the like, because that’s what he’s been doing for the last eight years as an extremely talented athlete surrounded by fawning coaches and other various Yes-men. It’s a cap nightmare waiting to happen.  

    You’re right THC…I’m still getting used to the advanced statistics thing (I’m sure you’ve noticed I’m a KB noob).

    I DO support picking up melo for the sake of adding another go-to guy in crunch time. But realistically, who would you be willing to give up for him?

  143. Interesting post by Sheridan:

    “It was a mere 20 minutes after the final horn sounded in Washington on Friday night when four members of the Knicks — Eddy Curry, Wilson Chandler, Anthony Randolph and Timofey Mozgov — marched quickly out of the locker room and headed toward the arena exit.”

    http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&id=5908902

    That would be a lot of raw talent to give up but only one player is currently deeply in the rotation in Chandler….
    Could get interesting over the next week or so.

  144. @270

    There is a caveat to Melo’s inefficiency. Jeremy at Roundball Mining Company thoroughly analyzed this subject http://www.roundballminingcompany.com/2010/10/19/carmelo-anthony-efficient/. (I’m pretty sure this article was discussed sometime this summer). His conclusion was that Melo’s is incredibly efficient at making open shots and not so much at making contested shots, yet he continues to hoist inefficient shots. Perhaps in D’antoni’s offense Melo changes his ways considering D’antoni stresses taking open shots, but his “alpha male” mentality is still a point of great concern.

  145. That is pretty weak reporting. Because 4 guys, most of whom didn’t even play, left quickly they have therefore been traded?

    In the twitter-age, there is no way these 4 guys are told they are traded and it stays secret for 24 hours. In fact, it’s probably more likely that if/when one of them is traded, they’ll probably find out AFTER we do.

  146. Z: That is pretty weak reporting. Because 4 guys, most of whom didn’t even play, left quickly they have therefore been traded?In the twitter-age, there is no way these 4 guys are told they are traded and it stays secret for 24 hours. In fact, it’s probably more likely that if/when one of them is traded, they’ll probably find out AFTER we do.  

    8:42AM
    I should also mention that Eddy Curry was spotted today eating MILE HIGH pancakes with a side of chicken NUGGETS on a grassy knoll with Bigfoot….

    8:45AM
    Wait, I’m just really high.

  147. Every metric used in this thread to minimize Melo’s potential impact was used several months ago to minimize Amare’s potential impact vs. Lee. I’d hate to “gut the team” to get him but I’d like to think D’Antoni’s system will maximize Melo’s talents (remember, this is a guy who won the NCAAs as a frosh, something Durant, Rose, Wall, etc. could not do) as a complete player, just as D’Antoni’s system maximizes the lesser talents of Felton, Lee, Gallo, Chandler, etc.
    Re: the notion that we don’t need more offense, we’re not going to beat the Bulls and Celtics by winning 64-62. Let’s embrace the system. We will compete with the top teams by overwhelming them with offense.
    And one final point–one many here will dispute, I’m sure: let’s say chandler is a better defender than Melo. But consider this: Knicks by 1 with 10 seconds left, Celtics’ ball. Pierce will likely get the close call vs. Chandler; he likely won’t vs. Melo. That’s just how the NBA works.

  148. As much as i like the current state of the team, one have to acknowledge that Melo would make us better. He might not be the most efficient guy out there; but has a good efficiency for such a high usage and usually opposing teams need to put the better defender on him or double him. All in all, it opens opportunities for the rest of the team, specially if you have guys that move well without the ball and are good shooters (and so, i wouldn’t want to part ways with Gallo, because a “small” lineup of Melo, Gallo and Amare would be really good offensively). To everyone saying that we’re better without Melo, they’re fooling themselves.

    Acknowledged that, one has to wonder if you can do better than Melo. Right now, SF position is well covered by Gallo and Chandler; meanwhile we have holes at the backup guard and center position. So in a vacuum, trading for Melo is good, but it comes at an opportunity cost. We might get a nice C (Marc Gasol) in free agency and then have enough cap space to get CP3 or D-Will next season. In the end you would have a better team; but not without risks. Who says we can sign a good C in the offseason, or that CP3 or D-Will aren’t going to sign an extension. Besides, i don’t want to waste the prime years of Amare waiting for all the pieces to fall into place. Trading for Melo also opens up the MLE, and the ability to resign our own guys.

    All in all, it is not clear cut. I would trade for Melo if it doesn’t involve Fields or Gallo (good complimentary players, IMO). If we wait to the offseason, i’d weigh what the Grizzlies and the Hornets are doing. If Memphis’ contractual situation makes unlikely that they match for Gasol and the Hornets end up with a bad record… i’d snub Melo and offer Gasol 11 millions a year; just hope Amare is not too upset about it.

  149. bugsy: @270There is a caveat to Melo’s inefficiency. Jeremy at Roundball Mining Company thoroughly analyzed this subject http://www.roundballminingcompany.com/2010/10/19/carmelo-anthony-efficient/. (I’m pretty sure this article was discussed sometime this summer). His conclusion was that Melo’s is incredibly efficient at making open shots and not so much at making contested shots, yet he continues to hoist inefficient shots. Perhaps in D’antoni’s offense Melo changes his ways considering D’antoni stresses taking open shots, but his “alpha male” mentality is still a point of great concern.  

    For those of you wondering WWTND, (or for those who miss hearing the sound of his typing) here’s what he said about this Carmelo Anthony study back when it was published in October: http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-2011-season-preview-shooting-guards/ (comment #33).

    “10 games isn’t a good sample size for predicting anything or saying this is how good a player is. I know he makes an effort, but there’s a lot of noise when you’re only dealing with 10 games from the same season. He takes 10 different games and his results may be totally different. He’s got to at least repeat with a few more 10 game samples to prove these numbers are reasonably predictive of the larger picture. His numbers don’t look totally crazy, but they’re just not reliable.

    FG% is a useless stat, so to me the guy does all this great work and it means nothing between the sample size and use of FG%. A 3-pt shot is worth an extra point. Just lumping together 3s and 2s makes no sense. And then there are FTs… He’s talking about scoring efficiency, but completely ignoring efficiency in his analysis.”

    -Ted Nelson, KB poster, 2005-2010

  150. Z-man: For the record, I am stating that as good as WC and Gallo are, neither of them individually is anywhere near the player that Carmelo Anthony is. .  

    Like I said, I’m not disparaging Melo. But he is costly, and he’s a one-dimensional player. He is a scorer. WC can play the 2, 3 or 4, can defend PFs, and contribute in any number of ways. Melo simply doesn’t do that.

  151. I vote no trades right now. No reason to mess with a good thing. But if Donnie wants to get somebody at the deadline, I hope it’s Camby not Melo. A defensive/rebounding 5 would fill a bigger gap on this team than Melo. And if Portland’s out of it at the deadline you can bet they’ll move Camby.

  152. Frank O.:
    Like I said, I’m not disparaging Melo. But he is costly, and he’s a one-dimensional player. He is a scorer. WC can play the 2, 3 or 4, can defend PFs, and contribute in any number of ways. Melo simply doesn’t do that.  

    I strongly disagree that Melo is a one-dimensional player. He rebounds and passes relatively well and defends better than he is given credit here for. He also gets other teams into foul trouble. He is no more one-dimensional than Stat was said to be before we got him. He is not an elite defender, rebounder, or passer, but he is adequate at all three, certainly not a liability.

  153. One other thing, is that like Stat, Melo is a winner. He has won every year despite being on teams that, beyond him, don’t measure up favorably in the West. Take a good look at the rosters he has played with in Denver. Melo has carried those teams on his back, and has won many of those games by doing exactly what Amar’e has done here, which is scoring at will in the 4th quarter. In fact, Melo is even more cold-blooded than Amar’e.

  154. iserp: He might not be the most efficient guy out there; but has a good efficiency for such a high usage and usually opposing teams need to put the better defender on him or double him.

    The only current high volume swingman comparable to Melo right now is Joe Johnson. Kobe, Paul Pierce, Lebron… those guys’ worst years are similar to Melo’s best years. Even Rudy Gay is looking like a better bargain if he keeps his strong play up this year.
    Any other current high volume swingmen are below Melo’s level and aren’t worth trading for, so you have to ask yourself, did you like the idea of getting Joe Johnson this summer to go with Amare?

  155. Z-man: One other thing, is that like Stat, Melo is a winner.He has won every year despite being on teams that, beyond him, don’t measure up favorably in the West.Take a good look at the rosters he has played with in Denver.Melo has carried those teams on his back, and has won many of those games by doing exactly what Amar’e has done here, which is scoring at will in the 4th quarter.In fact, Melo is even more cold-blooded than Amar’e.  

    I can’t tell if this is baiting or not.

    If you’re serious, you’re suffering from cognitive bias.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2009.html

    That was the only year in which the Nuggets made it past the first round in the playoffs.

    Now take a look at WS/48. Carmelo is 7th on the team. TS%? 10th. ORB%? 7th. Ortg? 10th. Drtg? 8th.

    See a trend? You can argue all you want, but the stats suggest that Anthony was, actually, one of the weak points of that team. He forced a ton of shots up, and scored at an inefficient rate. While his playoff game scores were excellent that year, he has only been above average (with regard to WS/48) three out of seven times during the playoffs. He is, according to WS/48, a league average player during his playoff career: 0.101.

    Does that warrant a max contract? I mean, come on, dude. Does it?

  156. I am not necessarily saying Melo is the man (though he is the only star-level player at this point obtainable and who wants to play in NY, which I place a premium on after what we saw with the lebacle this past summer), but the only way knicks take next step from middle-of-the-playoff pack (admittedly, they have shockingly made the move from perennial lottery team already to this position) to top 4 contender is with a secondary star….look around the league and just about every title contender has at least 2…case could be made that orlando doesn[t have 2 depending on whether one considers nelson a star….but all the rest do…they will need another crunch-time scorer to combat top defenses of beantown, chitown, orlando, etc. and when the offense bogs down or they go 3-happy and they aren[t falling…if not melo, not sure which other star they could obtain in near future to not waste amare’s prime if not melo…

  157. The boston star-studded triple and miami cheat team-up of 3 stars has changed the paradigm as far as I am concerned….no way knicks with amare and role players are going to beat those teams down the line…and as much as I love the chemistry we have now and love players like chandler, gallo and fields, who are necessary components for championship-caliber teams, I can[t see any of them making that next leap to be amare[s reliable 2nd wingman.

  158. A lot of people didn[t like the idea of teaming Joe Johnson with Amare due to length of contract and his age (29)…carmelo is 26 and I don’t think JJ is nearly as reliable a late-game performer as melo, particularly after that horrid series we saw last year against orlando.

  159. What is a star? A guy overhyped by ESPN? Or a formerly-underrated guy in a shitty media market guy like Pau Gasol who turns your 4-seed into a 65-win team?

  160. So I’ve been reading Dean Oliver’s book at long last, and one section that particularly stood out was a part where he states that as usage goes up, efficiency generally (not always, but generally) goes down -this is due to more hard shots creeping into the equation. He notes that while the high-usage player’s efficiency may go down, this can increase the efficiency of the lower usage players around him, because they don’t need to take those tougher shots — those are left for, say, Melo. So this is one reason why other players on the Nuggets may actually benefit from Melo’s chuck-iness.

    So before we compare Melo to Gallo who is 3rd or 4th option, we should probably compare him to other primary scorer swingmen. If you look in BR’s player comparison, I created one basically looking at players with a usage >30, scoring >20ppg, and playing >34 min/game,so basically the alpha dogs of the world. I further cut it down to swingmen (ie. not Shaq who plays a totally different game). So here are the guys that had TS’s better than Melo:

    Kobe
    Jordan
    Gervin
    Wade
    pre-injury Arenas
    Bird
    Durant
    Lebron
    Bernard King
    Paul Pierce
    Mark Aguirre (one year)
    Dominique
    pre-injury Grant Hill (at peak)
    pre-injury McGrady (at peak)

    I would say for the most part that’s a list of guys that we would like to have on this team.

    Now if we take Dean Oliver at his word — I would assume with us Melo’s usage rate would probably be in the mid-high 20s (as would Amare’s) -perhaps his efficiency would then go up and we could stop characterizing him as an Iverson type.

    Trouble is — and this is what got me into fights with Ted-you never really know what will happen when players leave for another team/system. He kept quoting “studies” showing that stats don’t change (googled that to death and still can’t find it) Sometimes they turn into Felton. Sometimes they turn into Bosh. Sometimes they stay the same. I guess I trust Donnie and D’Antoni to decide which of…

  161. Gasol was ROY and an all-star BEFORE the trade to LA so I would have classified him as a star prior to the move to lakers…look, I am not necessarily advocating for Melo, but more for the need to acquire a secondary star-quality player…I have too many bad memories of not quite getting over the hump in the 90s with just 1 star…due to relying too heavily on players who couldn’t get it done in crunch time when ewing was doubled or couldn[t get the ball (see charles smith 1993 ECF game 5, see john starks 1994 nba finals game 7)

  162. The most compelling reason for the Knicks holding off on any Carmelo move at this point is that Carmelo does not provide what they need the most: help in the paint and back-up PG duties.

    As simple as that.

  163. @Frank 291

    Frank: this is the most convincing argument I have seen for getting Melo. HCJ did a good job calling out Melo’s “winning” ways.
    See I think teams that must lean on swingmen – excluding Mr. Jordan – suffer from their relative inefficiency.
    On the Knicks, however, Melo would lean on Amare for the crazy tough scoring, and he largely works in the paint.
    So perhaps Frank is right that if he’s not called upon to do things alone, his efficiency improves.

    I have never said I didn’t want the guy. I just don’t think the Knicks should trade away some really good young players and decimate a developing team to get him when he likely will be an FA.

    He’s a very good player, but not one worth mortgaging the future of a very young, solid team.

    But my compliments to Frank’s research. It’s compelling to me.

  164. art vandelay: Gasol was ROY and an all-star BEFORE the trade to LA so I would have classified him as a star prior to the move to lakers…look, I am not necessarily advocating for Melo, but more for the need to acquire a secondary star-quality player…I have too many bad memories of not quite getting over the hump in the 90s with just 1 star…due to relying too heavily on players who couldn’t get it done in crunch time when ewing was doubled or couldn[t get the ball (see charles smith 1993 ECF game 5, see john starks 1994 nba finals game 7)  

    What wrong with you bringing in such memories???? LALALALALALALALA!!!!
    Not listening. I’m not listening.
    LALALALALALA!!!
    :)

  165. Honestly, I think we can debate Melo’s value ad nauseum, but no trade’s going down for at least two months (if at all).

    My instinct says that Donnie holds firm on a lowball offer (A first rounder [after moving AR], Curry plus one of the Gallo/Chandler/Fields troika). Denver then deals him to a team w/o Melo signing an extension (Dallas for a Beaubois/Butler package or Houston for Hill & multiple picks) and the Knicks sign Anthony as a FA next year

  166. Robert Silverman: Honestly, I think we can debate Melo’s value ad nauseum, but no trade’s going down for at least two months (if at all).
    My instinct says that Donnie holds firm on a lowball offer (A first rounder [after moving AR], Curry plus one of the Gallo/Chandler/Fields troika). Denver then deals him to a team w/o Melo signing an extension (Dallas for a Beaubois/Butler package or Houston for Hill & multiple picks) and the Knicks sign Anthony as a FA next year  

    My favorite scenario…

  167. I think every team needs a high usage “go to” scorer. A player that shoots alot and allows other players to shoot less and be very efficient. The more efficient the “go to” scorer is the better the offense will be. Players like LeBron and Jordan who can mantain a “go to” scorer role and still maintain very high efficiency are rare and are thus superstars and franchise changers. More common are the all star type high usage player with pretty high efficiency like Wade and Kobe, who while still very valuable players need good complimentary pieces to have success. I think despite recent drops in efficiency Anthony is in that category.

    You do not really need two of those kind of players. If you have more than one the less talented of the two Kobe with Shaq, Wade with LeBron will take a secondary role. They are still valuable but not as valuable as when they are the primary option. We already have a primary option in Amare. Because of that we do not need another “go to” scorer.

    SO the question is:
    Is Melo still a huge upgrade over Gallo and Chandler if he is only scoring 18-20 points a game?

    Or is Melo an upgrade if he comes in maintains his high usage shoots at his career high 56.8% TS% (big if) and causes either Amare (59.6% TS%) or Gallo (60.4% TS%), or Felton (57.7% TS%) or Chandler (56.9% TS%) to shoot alot less.

  168. Before Melo got to Denver, the Nuggs were a laughingstock– a moribund franchise. They missed the playoffs 11 times in 13 years. Before the Melo era, the last Nuggs team to make the NBA playoffs featured Mahmoud-Abdul Raouf, Dikembe Mutumbo and Robert Pack as their best players. Since Melo joined the team, they have been in the playoffs every season since. I think Melo had more than a little to do with that.

    If Melo is such a terrible offensive player, how come the 2009-2010 managed to be ranked #3 in the NBA in offensive rating, despite featuring this supposedly inefficient chucker as the centerpiece of their offense? The rest of the dudes on that team aren’t exactly the Showtime Lakers. Let’s say Melo misses the whole season with an injury. Does anybody really believe a team with Nene, Chauncey Billups, JR Smith, Arron Afflalo and Kenyon Martin getting most of the minutes is going to be an elite offense? HELL NO.

    Melo makes those guys look like better offensive players than they are. Opposing teams have to send their best wing defenders at Melo, and also have to use their best post defenders to help out. The result is easier shots for everybody else. In addition, the dude gets to the free throw line 9 times per game. The Nuggets led the NBA in FT/FGA last year, and Melo is the main reason.

    Melo is a very fine offensive player. There is more to basketball than eFG% and TS%.

  169. Just tossing this in there for thought. Say something like the Sheridan trade where chandler is the biggest loss (although mozgov would be a hit too, i think they could maneuver around keeping moz). Just suppose for a minute that you bring in Melo to replace chandler. He does score better, but what has kind of been overlooked is he does rebound substantially better and the assists are double. He’s also going to draw more attention from defenses which I’d have to think makes life easier on Gallo and Felton as well. We gain some steals, lose some blocks there. If he wants so badly to come to NY I don’t see why it’s unfathomable to think that they could get him to play within the offensive system.

    I just think that in that scenario I can see a fair amount of positives. Now if they can find a way to trade for him and keep gallo and chandler, well I call that a friggin miracle and I say definitely do it. But if it were just going to take chandler I don’t think that is something we can turn down. I think it’s actually better than giving up Gallo honestly.

    Idk, I change my mind on this stuff by the hour. Honestly I just hope the deadline goes by and we grab him in the offseason. I’d love to add him to what we already have. Although I’m not sure how it works out with WC if he signs in the offseason. I think if that happens wilson has to be renounced. So we lose him either way. Idk grrrrr

  170. Although I don’t recall all of the particulars, I remember reading the other day in a Hollinger chat that there is a way the Knicks sign Melo to the max next summer and retain chandler….I believe he mentioned that the Heat were able to finagle re-signing Joel Anthony this summer under similar circumstances. I think maybe they can go over the cap to re-sign WC sign he will be a RFA..not sure, though.

  171. yeah actually i think you’re right, it had something to do with the amount of his qualifying offer.

  172. Frank O.: @Frank 291Frank: this is the most convincing argument I have seen for getting Melo. HCJ did a good job calling out Melo’s “winning” ways.
    See I think teams that must lean on swingmen – excluding Mr. Jordan – suffer from their relative inefficiency.
    On the Knicks, however, Melo would lean on Amare for the crazy tough scoring, and he largely works in the paint.
    So perhaps Frank is right that if he’s not called upon to do things alone, his efficiency improves.I have never said I didn’t want the guy. I just don’t think the Knicks should trade away some really good young players and decimate a developing team to get him when he likely will be an FA.He’s a very good player, but not one worth mortgaging the future of a very young, solid team.But my compliments to Frank’s research. It’s compelling to me.  

    i concur. this is somewhat mind changing. still don’t think you can give up 2 starters so only 1 of fields, gallo, chandler plus randolph (or a pick) plus curry plus another pick in 2014? probably do that.

  173. @299

    I definitely agree with you man, people sometimes get to caught up in stats and forget the intangible contributions.

    Melo is a great rebounder for his position, can play defense if his mind is set (he had some pretty nice one on one duels with Kobe when they went deep in the playoffs) and just having him would take A LOT of the pressure off our other players, teams will have to defend him with their best defender all game long, and that opens up shots for everyone.

    there’s no way a team can keep Amare and Melo quiet all game long, specially with Felton playing like he is.

    I agree that mortgaging our future is not the right move, but if it takes AR, Chandler and Curry to get him it’s a no brainer for me, maybe even favourable if it includes TD.

  174. JK47: If Melo is such a terrible offensive player, how come the 2009-2010 managed to be ranked #3 in the NBA in offensive rating, despite featuring this supposedly inefficient chucker as the centerpiece of their offense?

    Melo isn’t “supposedly inefficient,” he’s real-life inefficient.

  175. Just ran across this on the Dime, supposedly by an “advanced scout” who is commenting on Felton and STAT’s tremendous play:

    “It also helps that the guys around them like [Danilo] Gallinari and [Landry] Fields and [Wilson] Chandler know their roles. But the thing with them is that those guys are logging a huge amount of minutes. They don’t have a true backup point guard and they don’t defend anybody. They’re on the right track to go to the playoffs, but you’re going to be able to score on them.”

    Couldn’t agree more with the “no true backup PG” and the “huge amount of minutes” comments. But I couldn’t disagree more with the “they don’t defend anybody” idea. They do have letdowns on the defensive side, but that is a gross overstatement. They have really improved their D this year. Honestly, way more than I ever anticipated any Dantoni team would do.

  176. THCJ, thank you for speaking truth to power!

    Look, people. We can debate whether Melo is a serious improvement over, say, Chandler, all we want. (I think not much, but whatever.) The point is this:

    BRINGING ON MELO KILLS OUR FINANCIAL FLEXIBILITY.

    So if you think the team as constituted with Melo – minus any pieces it would take to get him (Curry/AR + Gallo or Chandler or Douglas or Fields) would be a team you want to watch for the next five years, good, because that’s all you’ll have. Need a great 5? Forget it. Want to upgrade to CP3 or Deron? Not possible unless they want to take less $$$. I don’t see how that team EVER wins a title:

    WITHOUT A GREAT 5 OR GREAT DEFENDER (OR 2), WE ARE LOOKING AT YEARS OF FUTILITY.

    I find it ironic that people are advocating for a “star” as a second option because “that’s why the 90s Knicks never made it over the hump.” No, they didn’t make it over the hump because Jordan/Pippin/Rodman were phenomenal at their roles, and when Jordan wasn’t around, we played the team where their best player was significantly better than our best player at the same position. Pippin and Rodman would not have been “stars” w/o Jordan; they would have been “guys you stats lovers think are great but haven’t won anything.”

    I’m not saying that Wil is Pippen, or Gallo could be Jordan, etc. I’m saying that we need great complementary players. Gallo could very quickly become great at his role. Fields could become great at his role. Even Wil is already pretty good at his role. But…WE HAVE NO GREAT 5. Without one, you can all forget about a title. And much as I love how Ray’s playing, sorry, I’d rather have Deron or CP3…

    …and the money to sign them.

  177. rama: The point is this:BRINGING ON MELO KILLS OUR FINANCIAL FLEXIBILITY.   

    A) Who knows what the cap is going to look like going forward. Hard to say whether a move effects future cap flexibility until we know how the new cap is going to be structured.

    B) Even under the current CBA, adding a max player doesn’t kill our financial flexibility. Trading for one would actually help it. It would give us a mid-level exception, plus the ability to go over the cap to re-sign our own free agents.

    C) Even if the current CBA extended past 2012, who knows what could happen with Paul or Deron. They could get hurt; They could be happy where they are. I don’t think Donnie Walsh would horde his cap space for 20 more months hoping one of the two joins Amar’e. (And, if the Knicks sign a legit 5 between now and 2012 that too compromises 2012 cap space (when Gallo would need to be extended).

    D) As it is, if we sign Melo in the summer, (under the current CBA), we would renounce Chandler (even if there was a legal way to somehow re-sign him, Walsh wouldn’t, as he is redundant on a team that has Anthony). So a Curry + Chandler trade for Melo is, essentially the exact same as a summer FA signing. Anything on top of that is the true cost of the trade. Financially, the team is in good shape, and unlike the Isiah signings of yore, Anthony would actually be a player other teams covet, and is therefore moveable.

    I don’t think the point is about financial flexibility. It’s about whether Carmelo Anthony would be the best player that Dolan’s money can buy.

  178. rama: Pippin and Rodman would not have been “stars” w/o Jordan;

    First, Pippen led the bulls to 55 wins during the year Jordan played baseball. That to me indicates he is more than a complementary player. Secondly, Rodman was only on 3 of the bulls’ 6 champ teams in the 90s. Before coming to CHI, he had led the league in rebounds on 3 occasions. He was also a shutdown defender of the caliber of Ron Artest in his prime. Pippen was at least as good a player as Amare. Rodman, though arguably not as good, was still far better than anyone else on the Knicks’ current roster.

  179. “when Jordan wasn’t around, we played the team where their best player was significantly better than our best player at the same position.”

    except Ewing somehow held his own in that series (probably the best series of his life), he just didn’t get enough help.

  180. @308

    Well said. Couldn’t agree more.

    1) I don’t mind if we stick with Felton anymore. You guys were talking about how it not being a huge difference with Melo over Chandler. Well I think the difference between Felton and Paul/dwill is smaller. In my opinion anyway.

    2) It doesn’t kill our flexibility either because after next season we have several contracts expiring (felton,turiaf, Azu, Randolph) so we could work something decent out there.

    The sky’s not falling if we get melo.

  181. LOL @ Pippen and Rodman not being stars without Jordan.

    Someone knows nothing about basketball history…

  182. I can understand the fear of the loss of cap flexibility, but just don’t get the undervaluing of Melo as a player. Look at 82games.com and check out the clutch stats. What stands out to me is the FT attempts, Anthony was second to James last year and first the year before. How do you do that if you are just chucking fade-aways when the game is on the line?

    Again, people are making the same kinds of arguments they were about Amar’e before we got him, i.e. why not just re-sign Lee since he gives you almost as much as Amar’e (or more!) at less $$. Anthony is a future first-ballot HOFer entering his prime. Just about every team in the league would offer him the max if they could afford it w/o mortgaging the future. I understnad that logic and as a knick fan I would rather not do that either. But to doubt the guy’s talent and impact is as silly as it was to doubt Amar’e’s.

  183. Melo has been my favorite player since he was at CUSE. I am not up on the advanced stats and I understand the arguements about him but here is why I say we go hard for him.
    Since he played on the USA olympic team with lebron kobe d wade etc he has become a different player. He is a tremendous leader and by some accounts was the leader of the “redeem” team. He is one of the 5 best scorers in the league. He will draw a double every time he touches and has become a very willing playmaker. He is top ten in free throw attempts and makes. He is a clucth player who can take over a game fourth quarter by himself. Also this yr he is averaging 8 rebounds a game. He is a matchup nightmare. I think he will only improve in NY in dantonis system. I think he could make a tremendous impact by taking some pressure off Amare.
    Sry about the length of the post im just very very high on melo.

  184. NYK Ewing: LOL @ Pippen and Rodman not being stars without Jordan.Someone knows nothing about basketball history…  

    Actually, someone can’t read. Here’s what I said:

    No, they didn’t make it over the hump because Jordan/Pippin/Rodman were phenomenal at their roles, and when Jordan wasn’t around, we played the team where their best player was significantly better than our best player at the same position. Pippin and Rodman would not have been “stars” w/o Jordan; they would have been “guys you stats lovers think are great but haven’t won anything.”

    So, 1) I said they were phenomenal (HGrant the first threepeat, Rodman the second), and 2) I said that without Jordan, they were players you all would not have considered “stars” because they wouldn’t have won anything. Like in fact they didn’t win anything without Jordan. They would have been a second-round exit team year after year, just like we’ll be. As Latke says, Pippin was a star after Jordan left — but if he had never played with him, Latke would be writing about how dumb I am to consider Pippin a star. Revisionist history. And Rodman a star before Chicago? Please. Talk about having no idea about basketball history. You mean like anyone would have heard of Horace Grant if he hadn’t played with Jordan?

    COMPLEMENTARY PLAYERS. I feel like I’m having the same argument I had when Isaiah was brought on to be the GM. Anyone would any brains could see it would be a disaster; Zeke was a business disaster anywhere he went. But I got to hear all about how he knew what it would take to win a ring, blah blah blah.

    Melo wouldn’t be a disaster – but we’d exit in the second round every freaking year, because he’s not what we need.

    And by the way, I wasn’t one saying we shouldn’t sign Amare, so stf up. Don’t paint me with that brush if I never freaking said it.

  185. jon abbey: “when Jordan wasn’t around, we played the team where their best player was significantly better than our best player at the same position.”except Ewing somehow held his own in that series (probably the best series of his life), he just didn’t get enough help.  

    Patrick Ewing in series: 18.9 points .363 FG%
    Hakeem Olajuwon in series: 26.9 points .500 FG%

    Olajuwon outscored Ewing in all seven games. There’s actually a great article I read somewhere in the last two months about how Hakeem just destroyed Ewing during that series – was dominant in a way that Ewing couldn’t be. And I LOVED Ewing, his effort, his heart, his D, his fluid shooting touch, but it was obvious to the eye, and it is obvious by the statistics. Or has this site become just another place where people say that statistics don’t mean anything?

  186. Z:
    D) As it is, if we sign Melo in the summer, (under the current CBA), we would renounce Chandler (even if there was a legal way to somehow re-sign him, Walsh wouldn’t, as he is redundant on a team that has Anthony). So a Curry + Chandler trade for Melo is, essentially the exact same as a summer FA signing. Anything on top of that is the true cost of the trade. Financially, the team is in good shape, and unlike the Isiah signings of yore, Anthony would actually be a player other teams covet, and is therefore moveable. I don’t think the point is about financial flexibility. It’s about whether Carmelo Anthony would be the best player that Dolan’s money can buy.  

    That’s at least a perceptive comment about what would happen with Chandler if Melo comes. Fair enough about the trade…if Chandler and Curry are the only parts. But then it’s back to cap flexibility, and since the cap is only going to be less flexible after the new CBA, not more, I still think we need to preserve our flexibility for players we actually need.

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