58 thoughts to “2008 Thread: Knicks vs Magic 11/09/2007”

  1. fingers crossed… would love to start the weekend 3-1….
    david lee now has a mancrush on balkman.

  2. big game, this is one of the teams we’ll need to beat to have any hope at the playoffs. I worry that NY’s going to come out a bit cocky after the Denver game, hopefully that doesn’t happen. and I also worry way more about Lewis and Turkoglu than Howard, Balkman can’t cover both of those guys, and they’re both so tall, he’ll have his work cut out with either one on the perimeter.

  3. I’m loving loving loving the passing out of the post, around the perimeter, and back into the post!

    offensive juggernaut and defensive sieve, that’s certainly the most entertaining kind of deeply flawed team.

  4. How do we look tonight?

    I go to school in Indiana. Right now, I get to watch the Denver-Washington game, which is probably some of the worst defense I’ve ever seen.

  5. Well, we are winning…

    Not that good, but we hit some outside shots.

    Howad has 13 rebounds in sixteen minutes, closing in on Eddy Curry’s career high…

    Randolph is looking pretty good…

    Lee and Balkman have ten minutes, total…

  6. Raw? Yeah, but are you watching throw down these alley oops?

    I actually don’t care about raw. There is no center I would rather have on my team than Dwight Howard. all things considered. He is a freak, pure and simple…

    Interesting to hear Gus talk about Curry’s “alarming” rebounding numbers…

  7. And actually, you probably meant to say it’s crazy how much better he could get, which I agree with if that’s what you meant…

  8. just tuned into the game on the radio… did balkman and lee get hurt/fouled out? Is there a reason they are not in the game?

  9. I really do miss the days when the Knicks were known for their rugged defense. Teams used to be afraid of coming into the garden, scared of getting pummeled (usually by either Oakley, Mason, or Ewing) if they had the slightest thought of making a layup. The current team makes me so frustrated. Sure they got a ton of offense but that aint gonna win many games. I rather have an ok offense and an amazing defense that what we have now.

  10. I really do miss the days when the Knicks were known for their rugged defense. Teams used to be afraid of coming into the garden, scared of getting pummeled (usually by either Oakley, Mason, or Ewing) if they had the slightest thought of making a layup. The current team makes me so frustrated. Sure they got a ton of offense but that aint gonna win many games. I rather have an ok offense and an amazing defense than what we have now.

    oh, and hitting free throws on a consistent basis would be nice too

  11. Isiah never settled on a rotation tonight…no grouping seemed to work. More minutes for the second teamers please.

  12. what I meant was that Howard still doesn’t seem to have any real post game, but despite that, he puts up massive numbers because of his athletic ability.

  13. See I told you. Ewing-coached Howard scores 22 and reigns supreme. Isiah, get your weak game out of here! You’re fired.

  14. Please trade Steph for a point guard or a dummy same thing. Steph cannot win two meaningful games in a row. The kid needs to be drug tested. He cannot stay in front of his man on DEFENSE. Just let him try to play ball in the park where he belongs. They don’t play DEFENSE there either. Why waste the rest of the teams efforts on a drunk who cnanot understand stay in front of your man DEFENSE. Trade the garbage by his birhtday.

  15. Steph is untradeable. please make better posts.

    and Ewing didn’t have a damn thing to do with Howard’s performance tonight, he looks like the same player he did last year.

  16. Howard has a lot more shots now that Patrick has been coaching him. The 20 rebounds compared to Curry’s 3 were also nice. I hate Isiah Thomas. He is so fake! From NY Daily News….
    —-

    Patrick Ewing returns to the Garden tonight on an opposing bench. Again.

    The Knick legend is one of Stan Van Gundy’s assistant coaches with the Orlando Magic, whose starting center, Dwight Howard, is regarded as the top young big man in the league. Ewing, who previously has worked for the Washington Wizards and Houston Rockets, has said publicly that he’d like to work for the Knicks, but the franchise has refused to reach out to the player that Willis Reed calls the greatest center in team history.

    When asked why the team appears to have distanced itself from Ewing, Isiah Thomas said: “Patrick is a Knick. He’s always welcomed and he’s always been welcomed.”

    A person close to Ewing, however, says that the Knicks have made a point not to embrace their past.

    “They’ve made a concerted effort not to make him a part of it,” the friend said. “If he’s welcomed there, why haven’t they offered him a job?”

    Two years ago, the Knicks claimed that all of their possible coaching openings were filled. However, Phil Ford departed over the summer for Charlotte, and the Knicks never added another coach.

    “Patrick is always welcomed,” Thomas said without elaborating. There is a theory that Thomas’ long-running feud with Ewing’s agent, David Falk, could be the reason why Thomas won’t hire Ewing. Falk also represented another Thomas adversary, Michael Jordan.

    When Thomas was hired to run the Knicks, Falk told his two clients on the team, Keith Van Horn and Dikembe Mutombo, to prepare to be traded. Thomas eventually traded both, and Mutombo remains upset with him because during the 2003-04 season, he told Mutombo to take a vacation. Mutombo responded by shouting a profanity at Thomas.

  17. “Howard has a lot more shots now that Patrick has been coaching him. ”

    I’ve read the articles too, but not based on tonight’s game.

  18. You can disagree but you’re wrong. 22 points. 20 rebounds. The other day he had 28 points and 16 rebounds. Ewing is a great big man coach. I’d like to see Ewing join the Knicks as an assistant coach, but he never will as long as Thomas is here conning everyone with his grand plan.

  19. did you watch the game? he doesn’t have any offensive moves, that’s my only point. when he tried to make a post move, he didn’t look good at all. he got plenty of points and rebounds before Ewing showed up, and he’s an incredible talent, but I didn’t see any signs of an actual post game tonight.

  20. I did not see the game last night, but looking at the box score, this looks like the type of game we’ll unfortunately be seeing a lot of.

    Terrible shooting from the guards:
    Marbury 3-9
    Crawford 5-15
    Robinson 2-7
    total: 10-31

    A very typical Eddy Curry game:
    7-9 FG, 3 REB

    Limited minutes from our two best bench players:
    Lee 19 min
    Balkman 11 min

    Terrible assist/turnover ratio from starting guards:

    Marbury 7 AST 5 TO
    Crawford 5 AST 6 TO

  21. Curry did not get alot of rebounds but I thought he had a solid game last night. He had only 2 turnovers continuing his lower turnover trend – 4 games 9 turnovers. He also shot effectively and had 8 free throw attempts on nine shots, he also had 2 assists, 2 steals and a block. Overall I like the way Curry has been playing this season and even with his 3 rebounds we still out rebounded Orlando on both sides of the floor. Also while still not very good I thought he played better defense than any of our other bigs last night.

    Jamal had a terrible game but it was the right kind of terrible game. He was still very aggressive going to the basket and got most of his turnovers with either traveling calls or good defense by Orlando in the paint. He also missed layups, floaters and open threes rather than his customary crossover fadeaway move from past seasons. In fact I only saw one really bad fadeaway the whole game. I hope he stays aggressive because if he does we will get more games like the past three than this one.

    Q looked great, he played great defense on Lewis and had a solid offensive night. It is good to see him playing well but Isiah needs to find a way to get Balkman minutes even when Q is doing well.

    The bad play that really stood out to me was the defense by both Marbury and Randolph. Marbury could not keep Nelson in front of him to save his life and forced us to collaspe on Nelson of all people creating easy baskets for him and many of his teammates. Randolph lost track of his man numerous times. All the opponent has to do is look like they are going to shoot and Randolph leaves his man and looks for the rebound. This caused him to lose track of Howard on a couple of plays and Turkaglu all night.

    Also there is no reason for Rose to step foot on the court, Balkman is a better defender at the 4 and 5 and provides much more offense and rebounding. 11 minutes for Balkman and 19 minutes for Lee is unexcusable.

  22. Just a bad game. The guards needed to compensate for the omnipotence of Howard and they did not. Nate missed a couple of layups which, I think, Gus said, Foyle bumped him. It looked like a foul could have been called both times, but he should have made them anyway, and maybe gotten an and 1.

    I’m worried that with the new emphasis on traveling Jamal is finished. His entire game is predicated on traveling.

    We were outplayed by Jameer, Dwight, and Rashard tonight. I think we can beat this team down the line though. It’s too early to pack it in.

  23. Re: 19 minutes for Lee is unexcusable.

    Remember what Thomas said, “I don’t care about those white guys…” and also the comments about Larry Bird.

  24. More on the impact of Ewing working with Ewight, and more grist for the mill on how Thomas puts what’s good for Thomas before the good of the team. From Newsday…

    But what Curry could’ve gotten from Ewing was everything else: defensive tricks, work ethic, how to handle pressure and foul trouble, how to work the referees. How to turn doubts into ovations.

    “Everything that goes on, Patrick’s been through it all,” Van Gundy said. “He’s carried the expectations of a franchise. Everything that Dwight’s going to go through, Patrick’s been through.”

    Ditto for Curry.

    “I think he’s a fine player,” Ewing said. “I wish him the best, but right now I’m working with Dwight and Orlando.”

    The way Ewing was honored Friday night only underscored one possible reason Thomas wouldn’t hire him: He didn’t want anyone on the bench to overshadow him.

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spken105454865nov10,0,6062778.column

  25. I agree with what Ben and JK47 said. Nelson had a huge night due to very very porous defense. He blew by Marbury at will.

    I also thought Nate looked pretty gimpy.

    It’s so wierd to me that Lee could easily end up getting less minutes this year than last.

    Curry was ok. He was minutely above average. But it’s pretty ridiculous he only had 3 rebounds.

  26. Owen – Curry is not there yet but so far he has really limited his turnovers while being more active on the defensive end. If he can continue to keep his turnovers down his game will be alot better than last year. Connected with his turnovers his passing has looked alot better than last year. He is passing out of the post and reestablishing position better than last year.

  27. Lee isn’t getting that many minutes, but Lee also doesn’t look as good so far. maybe that’s somewhat a function of the limited minutes, tough to say, but he’s been disappointing so far IMO.

  28. I don’t know why people keep sounding antsy about David Lee – he’s shooting 59 percent, scoring at a career high rate, has seriously cut his turnovers (has a 4:1 A/TO ratio)… while his rebounding is off a bit, he’s still grabbing almost 12 per 40. Subjectively, he looks fine – he’s clearly defending better than Randolph or Curry, as the +/- shows… you could make a good argument we’d be 4-0 if IT was giving him decent minutes.

    I have generally not had a problem with IT’s coaching, but this is starting to get ridiculous.

    Yes, Curry looks a little better – in general – mainly because he’s not getting so many ridiculous turnovers. But a winning coach would make it priority #1 to get DL 35 or 40 minute a game. If Curry or Zach can still find time – that’s fine. Unfortunately, IT is doing it in reverse.

    And the stuff about Howard is comical. 24 points and 20 boards, but he didn’t make any 3-pointers or drop-step moves. I guess he’s not so good, after all.

  29. for the tenth time, I’m not being critical of Howard. what I don’t agree with is the belief that Ewing has had much of an impact on his game. I’d chalk up any improvement he’s made to: 50% to the addition of Lewis, 40% a natural maturation process and the additional muscle he’s supposedly added, and maybe 10% to Ewing’s coaching, and even that is generous.

  30. “But a winning coach would make it priority #1 to get DL 35 or 40 minute a game. ”

    looks like you’ll get your wish tomorrow, Caleb:

    “There is a strong possibility that Zach Randolph won?t be available to play tomorrow against Miami. His grandmother passed away late last night, so Isiah Thomas will likely have to find a double-double replacement for at least one game.”

    http://knicks.lohudblogs.com/

  31. Not the time to crow – our thoughts are with the Randolph family.

    Won’t be hard to find that double-double, though.

    I agree that Ewing (or any “skills” coach, for that matter) has a negligible impact, at most.

    My math would be: 90 percent natural maturation (he’s still just what, 21? 22?), maybe 5 percent adding Lewis, another 5 percent coaching – though I’d probably give more props to SVG who seems to do a good job putting players in position to succeed.

  32. I totally agree that DL should be getting 35 minutes a game.

    The player that should be coming off the bench is Randolph. He and Q are the only Knicks with a TS% of less than 55%. His TS% is very very low only 47%. The worst part of his low TS% is the fact that he is taking the most shots. While I love his rebounding I think we could get as much from Lee, with better defense and more offensive efficiency.

    Randolph should be the first big man off the bench providing offense for our second unit. Isiah needs to keep Randolph accountable and stop him from taking fadeaway midrange jumpers. He is much more of a black hole than Curry.

  33. I didn’t watch the game. I actually, and foolishly in hindsight, went to the Verizon center and watched the Wizards sleep walk and play the worst defense I have ever seen against Denver.

    The tickets were $58 and we were in the rafters and I have no idea how they intend to have people pay those prices for a team that simply looks like it doesn’t care.

    But from the box score, and based on what I have seen of these team so far this year, David Lee and Renaldo Balkman getting 19 and 11 minutes, respectively, is ridiculous.
    As a matter of fact, in every game this year before this one, it was only when Lee and Balkman got to the floor did the Knicks seem most in control of the game.
    Q looks like he had a decent night, but he doesn’t seem to have the cathartic affect on the team that Balkman does.
    Curry taking 9 shots also seems ridiculous,given how effectively he seemed to be scoring. The fact that he had a block and two steals also was interesting. But his rebounding…I mean what team can survive with a center getting 3 rebounds? How may more shots might he have gotten if he was working the offensive boards?
    Crawford and Marbury made 8 of 24 shots and and made 11 turnovers between them. That is your game.
    And with 15 shots taken, how is it that Jamal got to the line once? That means he gave us the same old same old: jump shots, rather than slashing. Your two guard needs to get to the line. One free throw is pathetic.
    But as a team, 20 turnovers.
    I’m not sure why the team’s best defender saw only 11 minutes against a team that shoots like Orlando does from the perimeter. From all I’m reading Crawford and Marbury were matadors again.
    Didn’t anyone see that coming?
    They have already made lesser players look unstoppable.
    This discussion about Howard is fairly ridiculous.
    He had 22 points on 50 percent shooting.

  34. I didn’t watch the game. I actually, and foolishly in hindsight, went to the Verizon center and watched the Wizards sleep walk and play the worst defense I have ever seen against Denver.

    The tickets were $58 and we were in the rafters and I have no idea how they intend to have people pay those prices for a team that simply looks like it doesn’t care.

    But from the box score of the Knicks game, and based on what I have seen of this team so far this year, David Lee and Renaldo Balkman getting 19 and 11 minutes, respectively, is ridiculous.
    As a matter of fact, in every game this year before this one, it was only when Lee and Balkman got to the floor did the Knicks seem most in control of the game.
    Q looks like he had a decent night, but he doesn’t seem to have the cathartic affect on the team that Balkman does.
    Curry taking 9 shots also seems ridiculous, given how effectively he seemed to be scoring. The fact that he had a block and two steals also was interesting. But his rebounding…I mean what team can survive with a center getting 3 rebounds? How many more shots might he have gotten if he was working the offensive boards?
    Crawford and Marbury made 8 of 24 shots and and made 11 turnovers between them. Devastating
    And with 15 shots taken, how is it that Jamal got to the line once? That means he gave us the same old same old: jump shots, rather than slashing. Your two guard needs to get to the line. One free throw is pathetic.
    But as a team, 20 turnovers.
    I’m not sure why the team’s best defender saw only 11 minutes against a team that shoots like Orlando does from the perimeter. I mean, Orlando put up 112 points. Did Isiah think the defense was adequate. How many games do you win when your opposition scores 112? From all I’m reading Crawford and Marbury were matadors again.
    Didn’t anyone see that coming? Couldn’t Balkman have seen time at the two?
    The Knicks have already made lesser players look unstoppable.
    This discussion about Howard is fairly ridiculous.
    He had 22 points on 50 percent shooting. He had 20 rebounds. He blocked three shots and affected a number of others and certainly kept some of our guards from attacking the hoop. And he made 6 of 8 from the charity stripe.
    Curry was 7 of 9 and simply didn’t get the all enough.
    Whether it’s Ewing or he shows no different moves than last year, certainly there was little done to counter is “limited” skills. He simply dominated.
    Isiah said the Knicks got away from what they do well, which is pound it into the paint and let
    Eddy and Zach work their power.
    But one reason the ball didn’t move as well was you didn’t have Lee flowing on offensive as much, which we all agree makes Eddy and Zach better. How much more dynamic are the Knicks when they get Lee out there worming around on offense for at least 30 minutes?
    The Knicks also didn’t have Balkman creating defensive havoc, which only creates transition opportunities and fires up his teammates…
    And how is it that a guy can utterly light up the garden one night with his energy and will, and then gets more than twice as few minutes? Brilliant coaching, that’s how.
    To me, this is a classic lousy coaching job by Isiah. In an earlier post I was asked to detail what I think is so bad about Isiah…
    I mentioned his starter selection. His situational choices and spreading of minutes cost us this game. How is it that his guards are getting blown by and he keeps his best defender on the bench?
    He had established a winning game plan in earlier games: He ran his starting 5, but liberally worked in Lee and Balkman and they ignited runs. Their energy and hard work transformed a predictable team into one that was hard to predict, defend and attack.
    Oddly enough, if Lee and Balkman play, they add at least 5 to 8 points to both Curry and Randolph’s totals.
    Nate being hurt is affecting the team, too. they miss his play making and his ability to score in bunches to supplement Marbury.
    In short, Isiah stuck with is starters up front, probaby gave too many minutes to an injured Nate, and not enough time to two key young guys who have a way of making everyone around them better.

    Isiah lost this game.

  35. Sorry. Hit the send button by mistake on my first post.
    If you want to delete the first post, Mike K., I wouldn’t be displeased…

  36. It wasn’t that bad of a loss.
    Orlando has some real talent and very good coaches. Ewing deserves some credit but the real credit should go to stan gundy. their offense looks crisp and big difference that I see in Howards game is that there is no hesitation in his low post moves. he passed out or shot quickly before the double downs came. I said it before and I’ll say it again you need guys that can do more than hit 3ft jumpers if they’re not centers. balkman didn’t get the minutes becuase lewis would of taken him down low and balkman off of the 3 games I’ve seen, has been a foul machine there. Q has much more strength. Can’t explain Lee’s lack of minutes.
    except for maybe rose bitched about lack of playing time. all in all I think we didn’t get blown out in first 3 quarters to a team that is vastly better in coaching and poses some real problems with a great low post player and very good outside shooters.

  37. Back from gall bladder surgery! Stop eating ribs y’all, you’ll thank me down the road.

    Two points…

    The East is looking very different than I expected. Boston is surprising me…Of course they were going to be much better but I thought they’d need months to gell and be great…especially with Doc Rivers at the helm. Washington and Chicago look terrible. They are not and will never be the class of the East. Detroit is looking old.

    With a bit of tinkering, the Knicks can be Boston’s biggest rival this year. Priority has to be to go over the top with your strength (offense) and gradually improve your weakness (defense….which is all about Balkman).

    Start Lee with the first five. Bring Zach in off the bench. Commit to 30 minutes a game for Balkman. Slow the guards down and work with their shot selection. Sit them if they do screwy stuff. Balkman playing more guard emphasizes the post play and cuts down on missed shots (Starbury and Crawford can’t miss shots and commit turnovers from the bench).

    Work with Curry and Zach on passing out of the post…I don’t know, give them a Range Rover for every assist (Dolan has spent money on worse things). Give Anucha Brown a service medal on MLK Day. If she doesn’t show, Dolan can talk about how dissappointing it is that she’s turning her back on the community.

    Nothing new here (except for the Range Rovers and the medal) but this team is so, soooo close. And isn’t far from contenting in the East.

  38. Start Lee with the first five. Bring Zach in off the bench.

    No way this will happen. I agree that Lee needs more minutes but Randolph is averaging 20.3 PPG, 13.5 RPG right now– there’s no way he’s going to the bench.

    The Knick frontcourt puts up great counting stats and will look good on paper, but you’ll never win in the NBA if you have NO shot-blockers in your frontcourt. The Knicks have not exactly played the offensive powerhouses of the league, and they’re still allowing a .472 FG%. Not surprisingly, they’re dead last in the NBA in blocked shots.

    I don’t think this team as presently constituted can ever be a good defensive team. Right now four of our five starters (everybody except Q) are pretty clearly below-average defenders, and those guys are getting massive amounts of minutes.

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