76 thoughts to “2008 Thread: Knicks vs. Golden State 11/20/2007”

  1. You all should go over to ESPN.com and catch Bill Simmons podcast with Gus Johnson.
    They talk a lot about the Knicks.
    Gus notes how he’s a fan of Marbury and tries to explain that Marbury’s background is so difficult that he has trouble fitting in with others.
    He also spends some time talking about how the Knicks don’t really have a leader, a guy that everyone revolves around. Then he spoke about how David Lee is his favorite guy on the Knicks and that they team is simply better when he is on the court. He explained how Lee knows how to make Eddy better and others better on the team. But he also notes that Lee doesn’t seem to have a good friend on the team and that Lee is the only white guy on the team and that that is tough on him.
    He said Lee told him how he thinks he understands what it is like to be the only black guy in an office.

    It’s sad because was Gus seem to be saying is that Lee could be a leader but for two things: he doesn’t get the minutes and he’s white.

    So it goes.

    But I would recommend listening in. It’s pretty cool.

  2. nysun.com has an article today that says Wilson Chandler should be our starting 3 since Q and Balkman are hurting. I agree since he is our only real 3 considering he can score from the outside and defend!

  3. Would be cool to see what Chandler can do. Read on ESPN that Lee will start at 3.

    Anyone know for sure?

  4. Isiah sure hinted that Lee would start.

    I’d love to see it.

    And yeah, I don’t think Chandler at the three would be any worse than, say, Crawford at the 3, which happens waaaay too often during the game (it probably only happens for, like, 5 minutes, but that’s waaaay too often).

  5. Lots and lots of hubbub, but if they go on a 3 game winning streak all will be forgiven. I think Isiah deserves at least, say 20 games before he gets the boot. Although any more blowups like this stephon thing and maybe sooner.

    Are there any steady veteran presences on the team? Malik Rose maybe but he doesn’t play enough to really get respect. Maybe Q should be the one? This is where Allan Houston really might have been helpful.

  6. From the Journal News in New York:

    The Journal News –
    Isiah Thomas appeared caught off guard by Stephon Marbury’s comments to the media on Tuesday.

    When asked what he will take away from the recent controversy, Marbury gave the following statement:

    “To be honest, not a whole lot came of it. There?s nothing good coming out of all of what went on, but for myself, being able to weather the storm, to have focus when I went back onto the court was something that was good for myself. And as far as what I had to deal with and as far as my teammates are concerned, I think everyone wants to get this past them and go forward.”

    When asked for his reaction, Thomas first asked the Knicks’ public relations representative to confirm that Marbury had actually given such a statement.

    “I have to make sure,” Thomas said. “I don?t know. I think as a player, you never want to be benched. You always want to play. But from a team aspect, I think the things he?ll deliver are exactly what we need. And if he?s not delivering those things again, then the bench awaits him.”

  7. From True Hoop

    “If I didn’t play the way how I played, I wouldn’t have gotten no max contract,” he said. “They can talk about whatever they wanna talk about me, because I got maxed. I’m a max player. Don’t get mad at me, because I’m telling you what’s real. One plus one is two, all day long, and it’s never gonna change. And that’s factorial.”

    Great team attitude Starbury.

  8. I know i just quoted this but how ridiculous is this statement

    “One plus one is two, all day long, and it?s never gonna change. And that?s factorial.”

  9. I was going to post a comment that friends had described as “inflammatory, vulgar, offensive, trollish, imbecilic and off-topic”. But I see that those are fobidden. So I will say this instead.

    Whatever else Marbury may be, he isn’t stupid. He *did* get a max contract. As much as some here like David Lee I don’t think he’ll ever get that.

  10. “Whatever else Marbury may be, he isn?t stupid. He *did* get a max contract. As much as some here like David Lee I don?t think he?ll ever get that.”

    so how much you get paid is somehow related to intelligence now? Marbury’s an idiot who’s got exceptional basketball skills, which have faded quite a bit from their peak a few years back. he could be getting $1 billion a game and he’d still be an idiot, albeit a really rich one. or maybe that “factorial” comment makes sense in your language?

  11. I can only hope that Marbury does the rest of his factorialing in Italy after the season is over.
    He came here with the reputation of not making others around him better and he will leave that way.

  12. Charles Oakley!!! has tried to talk about the Knicks about some things but likely Isiah The Great Evaluator nixed it.

  13. It is probably good that Oakley and Ewing didn’t get a call back for a job with the Knicks because things are so bad now and once Isiah is gone they can come in start fresh.

  14. Jamal – 4 turnover in 20 min thats about 10 t/o per 48.
    Mardy about the same. both of their +/- is around -13. What good is having your offense run thru the two big guys if you can’t get the ball to them.
    Curry — 12min 0 rebounds. is that possible?

    Mark Jackson coach Ewing assistant coach

  15. Is this an NBA team?? This is one of the worst games of the knicks that i’ve seen.
    Awful, awful, awful!!!
    With this type of play (def & off) they don’t get even 33 wins they did last year. Something big has got to change if they want to improve from last year.

  16. Here’s a factorial:
    a few minutes remain, the Knicks down by 20 or so and Lee has played less than 20 minutes.
    All but over. They do not defend. Craw, Marbury, porous.
    Q cannot guard Jackson.
    Embarrasment for the knicks.
    They are getting crushed by a bad team.
    The guards are killing the Knicks.
    Richardson play 31 minutes, 2 of 12 shooting. he has 10 bounds, but sucks every other way.
    How is that better than what Lee could do?
    It’s not like Q is playing lights out defense.
    Collins is horrible.

  17. 108-82
    Isiah has lost his team.
    Marbury is a cancer.
    Even our energy guys aren’t trying very hard right now.
    The homer Knicks announcers are utterly bashing this team. There is embarrassment in their voices.
    Gus sounds like he doesn’t want to work for MSG. “Horrendous performance,” “they didn’t seem ready,” Richardson seemed in a fog,” “a terrible performance in front of the home crowd tonight…”
    This from homer announcers who are dying to say something nice.
    John Andres is saying in his years of covering the Knicks, he has never seen them worse.
    He is write.
    Gus in closing said “this game brought to you by MSG…”
    the pause at that point was clearly pointed, meaning this is what they have given you.

    This so sucks.

  18. Again less than 40% FG%.
    Only 15 Ast to 27 TO and barely 3 Stl
    (GSW 21 Ast, 11 TO and 17 Stl)

    Sometimes stats do say it all.

    Oooh i forgot, they grabbed 52 Rebs to 34 for GSW
    Go Knicks!

  19. Well, I just got back from the game and y’all should know that the loudest the crowd got tonight was with “Fire Isiah” chant. This was an utter embarrassment, with Charles Oakley at courtside to boot. If I was Oak, I would go in that locker room and absolutely take my boot to Zach Randolph’s head. I’ve been one of the bigger Zach defenders to date but forget his statistics, this was the worst game I’ve ever seen him play. Turnovers, and worse, not running back AT ALL on defense — there were multiple possessions after he turned the ball over that he was just walking up the court from the other side while the Warriors were on a not-so-fast break. And somehow our “coach” doesn’t bench him immediately. It’s a complete joke. What makes it even worse is that GSW played TERRIBLY tonight. They were God-awful, turning the ball over themselves, taking off balance long jumpers, going 1-on-1 all night. And Mardy Collins looked like he was trying to get himself back on the bench, or better, the inactive list with his putrid play.

    I am so upset I can’t even speak (that is why I am typing).

    The sad thing about it is that the guy who played best tonight was probably Marbury. He tried pretty hard on D against Baron Davis, distributed a bit. But there was just nothing from anyone else.

    I think it’s clear that Isiah has to go. Just today or yesterday I wrote that he should get 20 games, but to see an effort like that out there clearly shows the team has tuned him out completely.

    They need to find a coach that is not all chummy with the players. If Hubie Brown would somehow accept this job I’d hire him in a second. It’s like a frat house over at MSG now with no accountability from the interns to the players to the front office to Mr. Inheritance.

    I might have to take a break from this board for a while or else you guys will have to keep reading these rants. Just brutal tonight.

  20. Frank – you should be more optimistic. Listen to this poster:

    “OK so we?ve got a losing streak. Let?s give us some time to pull out of it… But we?re only 9 games into the season for pete?s sake! Let?s just see how it goes.”

    Oh wait that was you one whole game ago. Well glad to have you on-board. :-)

  21. I’m ashamed to say but I wanted the Knicks to lose tonight and by a lot. Looks like I got my wish. My reasoning is that Dolan sees this and fires IT immediately. Fingers crossed…

  22. seriously, lets contemplate what took place tonite. they got destroyed in every category except rebounds. they played zero defense. they turned the ball over i think 29 times. will isiah see december? if not can herb take over the ropes. the east is horrific-i think only 3 or 4 teams are above 500. they still have plenty of time to turn it around. i just dont understand their effort and lack of consistency. this is the first time in years i had to turn the game off with 5 minutes to go. and isiah has that stupid smurk. god help the knicks.

  23. Not the best first Knicks game for my girlfriend. ;)

    But seriously, as awful as this game was, and it was AWFUL – I do think the Warriors are a very uniquely frustrating matchup for the Knicks.

    The Knicks’ worst part of their defense is defending perimeter shots – all the Warriors do is shoot perimeter shots.

    The Knicks are sloppy – the Warriors try to force the Knicks to play a faster pace, which is conducive to turnovers.

    So as bad as the Knicks looked tonight, just remember how bad last year’s Knick team (the decent, healthy Knicks team of around the All Star Break) looked against a similar Warriors team.

    So things are not as bad as this game would lead you to believe.

    They are really, really bad, though. “Just eat the rest of Isiah’s contract already” bad.

  24. can you be playing out the string less than 10 games into the season?

    Brian, GS is a tough matchup, but NY doesn’t match up well against virtually anyone in the East. I’ll be very surprised if we win 30 games this year, I’m hoping for 15-67 and lots of ping-pong balls.

  25. Other notes from the game:

    – The “Fire Isiah” stuff really reminded me more of a “Hey, this is what people think we’ll do – so let’s do it!” thing rather than an actual spontaneous thing.

    – Marbury got booed heavily – then he played well, and he only got booed when he missed a three. By the by, I really think that he passed up some good looks at threes because he was afraid of the crowd.

    – It certainly did not affect the overall score, but the refs really let Golden State manhandle the Knicks tonight. It was really weird. The Knicks are the more physical team, yet the Warriors were hacking all night long, with about 50% of them being called (and, like, 80% of the 50% they called came in a one minute span when Curry picked up, like, 35 Warrior fouls).

    – It was probably only, like, 5-6 times, but it seemed like five times that, the amount of times David Lee, Eddy Curry or Zach Randolph were given the ball near the three-point line, where they had no idea what to do with it (leading to 116 Warrior steals).

    – I didn’t mind when Collins was used strictly as a defensive player (he played some nice D on Davis, and Marbury, as someone else mentioned earlier, actually DID play Davis well in the second half), but lordy, can that guy not play offense or what? The sooner the Mardy Collins Era ends in New York, the better.

    – Fred Jones is just a waste of space – why not just TRY Chandler?

    – Richardson looked lost

  26. ommmmmgggg. Pleeze be patients, guyz. The fans and the media alwayz hatin on Isiah. Pleaz give Isiah mo time fo the team to mesh. We gotz Zach Randloph! This team haves so much talentz. Isiah has the vision for the future of the New York Knickerbockers and Isiah is tryin to getz us to mesh. Once we be meshes. That will be dat and dat is a factorial. Know what I’m sayin. Aight. Peace and shiny stuff to all yalls and god bless. PS Isiah gave me pomession to go home.

  27. can you be playing out the string less than 10 games into the season?

    Brian, GS is a tough matchup, but NY doesn?t match up well against virtually anyone in the East. I?ll be very surprised if we win 30 games this year, I?m hoping for 15-67 and lots of ping-pong balls.

    I think Golden State is particularly frustrating because they’re not that good, but they just happen to matchup really well against the Knicks, making this game a disaster to watch.

    I don’t think the Knicks had matchup problems with Cleveland or Miami (just picking East teams they’ve played), besides “Lebron James is just really good.”

    Orlando, they probably did, but Orlando is looking quite good. I’m surprised they gave up on Ariza. Is it a contract thing?

    By the way, 10 games in, and the Knicks have only played THREE games in their own conference. Weird.

  28. Collins is awful, that was a dud pick. if it’s really true that Isiah could have gotten Rondo and then Balkman at 29 in that draft (we’ll never know for sure), then that really sucks.

  29. Oh, also, we sat in front of a group of Warriors fans.

    Those diehard fans out there know what it feels like when your favorite team is getting blown out in your own arena, and there’s people from the other team being really loud about it – soooooooooo annoying.

    Mike, that link’s interesting, my girlfriend noted, “I have never seen fans this angry before.” I just don’t think she’s been to that many sporting events, but I see her position.

  30. To tell ya da truth, notin good came from dis Isiah hatin and since Stephon be back in da startin lineup. I be back on da bandwagon with my boy Isiah. How can you beat that? The best point guard to eva play da game. Yeeeeh, all net.

  31. To tell ya da truth, notin good came from dis Isiah hatin and since Stephon be back in da startin lineup. I be back on da bandwagon with my boy Isiah. How can you beat that? The best point guard to eva play da game. Yeeeeh, all net.

    I understand the point of making the joke ONCE, but it really isn’t funny enough to repeat.

  32. Brian Cronin Said:
    November 21st, 2007 at 12:29 am
    Not the best first Knicks game for my girlfriend. ;)

    Way to go. You just put more money in Dolan’s pockets which is all he cares about. You should be ashamed. I hope you went with a paper bag on your head.

  33. I just listened to the Bill Simmons / Gus Johnson Podcast on ESPN – one question – what is Gus smoking??

    “Isiah is a winner” “Randolf is about to break out” “The season is really early” “Of course Isiah will be here by Christmas”… The “most misunderstood person is Marbury – he comes from a circumstance”

    Talk about drinking the Kool Aid!! Gus is a smart and articulate guy, and these comments will destroy his credibility… Please Gus, have a semblance of reality…

  34. Brian Cronin Said:
    November 21st, 2007 at 1:01 am

    To tell ya da truth, notin good came from dis Isiah hatin and since Stephon be back in da startin lineup. I be back on da bandwagon with my boy Isiah. How can you beat that? The best point guard to eva play da game. Yeeeeh, all net.

    I understand the point of making the joke ONCE, but it really isn?t funny enough to repeat.
    I actually enjoyed it even more the second time. I’m hoping Stephon becomes a recurring character on this site.

  35. I take back what I said yesterday about giving them time too. Fire Zeke. Get someone in who will insist on playing hard or not playing. Don’t need a great scout if we’ll be in the lottery anyway.

  36. they’ll win a few. Someone will get hurt. Isiah will have an excuse. Don’t worry. Nothing’s changing until Dolan is gone.

  37. I have to say I think I might be joining the “fire isiah” bandwagon. It was not completly clear to me until tonight that Isiah has lost the team.

    Once a coach loses a team it is all over.

    Randolph is a mess. Say what you want about Curry and his problems defensivly but at least he gives effort on defense. Randolph doesn’t seem to care at all. Also if Randolph doesn’t get the ball enough he starts really forcing the issue which leads to bad shots or turnovers. 7 turnovers and 7 missed shots tonight, horrible. We need to move him before his value drops anymore.

    Marbury might be a headcase but he has been playing, even with all the distractions, worlds better than Crawford, Richardson, Collins, or Jones

    The only players that have played even decent this year are Curry, Lee, Nate, Jeffries, Morris, Chandler and Marbury. (Though Marbury cancels his decent play by being a headcase) Everyone else hurts us more than helps every time they enter the game.

    We need better guard play now or we will get it when we win the lottery if we don’t, cause we are not winning many games without it.

  38. Derrick Rose looks like the best fit, Chad Ford’s writeup today:

    “The best pure point guard in the draft draws some comparisons to Deron Williams. However, Rose is actually more athletic. Looks like a lock for a top-five pick if he can lead Memphis deep into the NCAA Tournament this season.”

  39. “I do think the Warriors are a very uniquely frustrating matchup for the Knicks.”

    It shouldn’t be that frustrating to matchup with the worst defensive team in the NBA. And it’s not even close– GS gives up 6 more points per game than the next worst (not the Knicks!).

    Other teams don’t get frustrated matching up with us. Denver did once, I guess, but they answered back with a 35 point drubbing. If we can’t compete with GS at our own arena then we will have the worst record in the NBA this year.

    Isiah’s making Larry Brown look really good these days…

  40. I think that the fast pace feel of the game is especially detrimental to the Knicks, as they are sloppy with the basketball, which is exacerbated on the fast break.

    But yeah, the Knicks look awful. I just don’t think they are as awful as they looked against the Warriors.

  41. Brian-

    To me, the problem is that the Knicks have no structured offense. They’re in the middle of the pack in terms of pace and overall they just don’t seem to have a game plan. I have nothing to back this up and your points about the fast pace playing to the Knicks’ weaknesses make sense, but I just think that if another team comes in here and says we’re going to slow things down, take advantage of all of our possessions and make the Knicks work as hard as we can on their possessions (say Detroit) the Knicks are just as screwed as if GS comes in and says we’re going to run all night. Those teams have a plan and have tried to get talent suited to a certain style.

    The Knicks’ entire offense has revolved around isolation and two man plays for years. It seems to me like their attitude towards building a team is: we’ll just get the most “talented,” “athletic” players and let them play. The attitude of the coach, interestingly enough, seems to be the same. So I guess the playground mentality of the players is not particularly suprising, especially because most of them played the same way before they got here.

    Until their orgnaizational game plan is something other than a “power offense” where 3 players on the court at any time are trying to score 1 on 1, or 1 on 2, or 1 on 5 but have absolutely no ability or desire on D, and then 1 or 2 guys on the court is out there as a defensive presence (I mean, really, is one second year PG on the court for his D going to help an otherwise pathetic D? If one guy is going to be such a presence that he turns your whole D around it should probably be your 5, although maybe Balkman can reach the Gary Payton, Ron Artest, AK level of perimeter defender who dominates the game), the Knicks are going to find most NBA teams exacerbating on most nights.

  42. Basically, if the Warriors want to run, do the Knicks try to run with them or slow it down? You probably want to play to your strength, but what is the Knicks’ strength? 1 on 1 scoring ability and rebounding?

  43. Can we finally shut up all the people who think Zeke is so great at finding talent???

    Hey — HE DOESN’T WIN.

    All those apologists who point to his drafting prowess just don’t get it: He is a loser, his players are losers. The stat that really matters is Ws…while Zeke has been on the scene, the New York Knicks have a stack of Ls…

    I also love Zeke’s comment after the game: this one is on my desk.

    Hey Zeke: THEY ARE ALL ON YOUR DESK!!!!!! Love how he tries to look magnanimous while shirking his responsibility for the other Ls… he is such a lowlife slug.

  44. Time to make some wholesale changes. Isiah has lost this team, I don’t care what the players say you can tell by the effort they give on the floor. Curry should shoulder a lot of the blame as well as Marbury. For all this guys size and girth he is by far the worst defender I have ever seen. The whole starting five are all one on one players. A sensible trade would be to send Zach and Jeffries to the Pacers for Jermaine O’neal.

  45. retrokid-

    “Can we finally shut up all the people who think Zeke is so great at finding talent???

    Hey ? HE DOESN?T WIN.

    All those apologists who point to his drafting prowess just don?t get it: He is a loser, his players are losers.”

    I’m not sure who you’re referring to as Zeke apologists. It is possible to draft well and still be a bad GM. Your comment seems completely off-base and ignorant based on the posts on this thread.

  46. Ted N. – I am renominating you for MVPoster.

    That’s exactly right. No motion offense. Just a lot of isolation plays.

    And it is nearly impossible to play d without a 5 who can block shots and defend the pick and roll.

    It’s also pretty hard to play O with two bigs who can’t pass at all, yet dominate the ball. Randolph and Curry have 14 assists between them in 17 games.

    It’s so rare to see either of them even make simple basketball plays, like a give and go. I mean to be totally honest, I don’t think I can remember Curry ever having made a nice pass to someone cutting to the basket. Ever. Maybe a few dishes around the basket here and there, but the guy never hits open cutters for easy baskets. It’s sort of amazing really.

    When you have two players who can’t pass, it’s pretty hard to run a motion offense….

  47. Ted N. — guys like you say we have talent. Well, our talent doesn’t win. So maybe everybody else has more talent. Talent is worthless if it doesn’t turn into wins. I think the ignorance is yours.

  48. by the way Ted, your analysis of “the problem” with the Knicks misses the real problem: lack of Defense.

    I also welcome you to re-read the posts on this thread, you will find apologists who think Zeke’s drafting prowess is to be admired. Do your homework before you call somebody ignorant, you just show yourself to have blinders on.

    Zeke’s very first move to bring us “talent” was to bring in Marbury — a loser, a selfish player, a guy who doesn’t play perimeter D, a guy who misses a lot of shots. That was the beginning of the move to “talent.” Zeke promised a quick turn-around. Zeke doesn’t take full responsibility for losses — “this one’s on me” is code for saying all the other losses aren’t.

    Plenty of guys on this board try to find positives about Zeke. Not one of Zeke’s draft picks starts…what does that tell you? Even Zeke doesn’t think they have the talent to do it…except Mardy…and now after two woeful performances, he got benched…and the only reason Zeke started him was to “punish” Marbury (Zeke’s words). Zeke knows his draft picks can’t start,and so they are subs on a terrible team…enough praise for these guys, they ain’t getting it done. Period.

  49. Listen, ignorant was a poor word choice on my part. Off-base is all I meant. Ignorant as in uninformed, unaware.

    I never said the Knicks have talent or that Zeke has done a good job as President of Basketball Operations or coach. I said that he’s done a good job in the draft, both in Toronto and NY. That’s why I said your comment was off-base. If there are any Isiah supporters on this thread, I’m not one of them.

    People aren’t just trying to find positives about Zeke because they like his smile. They’re trying to look at the situation as impartially as possible, rather than just saying Zeke hasn’t done a good job overall therefore everything he does/says/is is terrible.

    Drafting is one of many aspects of Zeke’s job, and I think by most standards he’s done a good job in the draft relative to his contemporaries. You can admire his drafting and still say he’s done a terrible job running the Knicks.

    “Zeke knows his draft picks can?t start,and so they are subs on a terrible team”

    Tracy McGrady has made 7 All-Star teams and been named to 6 All-NBA teams in his career.

    Marcus Camby’s had 3 consecutive all-defense selections, and is the reigning DPOY.

    Give Lee, Balkman, Robinson, and Chandler some time and while none might ever win an MVP award, I think they’ll all be pretty good players (certainly all 3 have shown good progress for their experience levels).
    Again, relative to what was available when Zeke has picked he’s been very impressive. That doesn’t mean he’s a good GM or coach or anything else besides drafter.

    “by the way Ted, your analysis of ?the problem? with the Knicks misses the real problem: lack of Defense.”

    The context of that post was the Knicks only managing 82 points/100 possessions against what was the league’s worst defense coming into the game. I absolutely agree that the Knicks’ defense is next to nonexistent, but I was addressing their offense.

  50. I dunno, Ted, I agree that the Knicks offense looks very bad, and they should have a hard time scoring against Detroit – I just think they’ll manage to make the game closer, as the Warriors two “strengths” (I use quotes because I don’t think this style has even really helped them much this year) on offense and defense both cater to Knicks’ glaring weaknesses.

    But otherwise, I think you’re spot on (and so does KB, as he quoted your post in the piece above!). The Knicks really do not seem to have a system, and it is frustrating as all hell to watch.

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