2008 Thread: Knicks vs Denver 11/06/07

Your in-game & post-game thoughts here.

Since I have no posts for today, I thought I’d publish this early. Usually I try to get them up an hour before game time. Game threads are still a work in progress.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

81 thoughts to “2008 Thread: Knicks vs Denver 11/06/07”

  1. Just for everyones comical viewing pleasure, technically, according to yahoo’s fantasy league default top 500, Jerome “intergalactic trans-fat snacks black-hole” James, is not the worst player in the league coming in at 491st. Below him include world-beaters:

    492: JD Mbgena 493: Brandon Bass 494: Ira Newble
    495: Luke Jackson 496: Esteban Batista 497: Othella Harrington 498: CJ Miles 499: Stephen Graham 500: Ronald Dupree

    Sooooo……in some instances you actually have to be retired in order to be worse then Jerome James….simply amazing

  2. i’ll start it now, just four hours before game time:

    great. another open three for the nuggets. anybody know how to rotate on defense?

    at some point, isiah’s gotta put balkman in there for Q, right?

    you can’t play curry and randolph together! enough already!

    seriously, he’s putting lee in soon, right?

    did curry just get outjumped for the rebound by iverson?

    marbury knows he needs to stay in front of his guy, right?

    is there any good reason why nate robinson is still on the bench?

    feel free to copy and paste these comments when applicable.

  3. ^lol

    One thing – the Nuggets don’t have many guys who knock it down too efficiently from three. So we might not be burned too badly by that tonight.

  4. I wouldn’t be so sure about Denver on 3s. If Greg Buckner and Daniel Gibson can mess us up there’s no reason Linas Kleiza can’t. Or, you know, Carmelo.

  5. “the Nuggets don?t have many guys who knock it down too efficiently from three.”

    They will tonight!!!

  6. “the Nuggets don?t have many guys who knock it down too efficiently from three.”

    Crawford and Marbury would knock it down efficiently from three if they had Crawford and Marbury on them.

  7. BQ’s Left Nip –

    You have me thinking now that maybe what we need is an official, Football Outsider’s style pro forma complaint sheet. I’ll take a crack at the first draft… (or have we done this already?)

    Clearly, the Knicks need to because he won’t/can’t .

    Thomas should have never . He stinks; a fact that is as obvious as it is irrefutable from his .

    I wish we would swing a deal for . We could probably get him for , a draft pick, and some cash. We’re never going to get under the cap anyway, and the East is wide open this year.

  8. Official complaint sheet, take 2:

    Some stuff got cut off. So I’ll try again.

    Clearly, the Knicks need to (fire Isiah/cut Jerome James/bench Crawford/Curry/Marbury) because he won?t/can?t (start David Lee/stay away from high carb salted snacks/take a good shot/grab a rebound in traffic/play any defense at all).

    Thomas should have never (drafted/traded for/signed). He stinks; a fact that is as obvious as it is irrefutable from his (insert stat of choice, e.g., x per game/x per 40/PER/WoW/+/-).

    We would just swing a deal for (totally unobtainable player/cap-killing contract). We could probably get him for (insert overvalued player), a draft pick, and some cash. We?re never going to get under the cap anyway, and the East is wide open this year.

  9. Man, Carmello and Iverson are going to score a lot tonight.
    I’m guessing Iverson has 35ppg and 11apg, Carmello gets 30ppg, Camby gets 6 blocks, and Eduardo Najera and Yakhouba Diawara kill us from 3pt land, each scoring 12-15 points apiece.
    The different will be that Denver plays some defense.

    Who do you think the Knicks will have dogging Iverson all night?

  10. Man, Carmello and Iverson are going to score a lot tonight.
    I’m guessing Iverson has 35 and 11 assists, Carmello gets 30, Camby gets 6 blocks, and Eduardo Najera and Yakhouba Diawara kill us from 3pt land, each scoring 12-15 points apiece.
    The different will be that Denver plays some defense.

    Who do you think the Knicks will have dogging Iverson all night?

  11. Frank O.– you weren’t always so down on the team. Something happened right around the beginning of training camp (something involving a trial or something?…) and since then you’ve easily displaced me as worlds most frustrated fan.

    I had to go back a ways, but I did find a quote to prove that you used to believe in this team:

    “This team could easily be .500, if everyone stays healthy.” (Frank O., September 10, 2007)

    There is no mention of improved Defense; no call to cut down on turnovers; no assertion that Marbury needed to feed the post better; No judgment on Crawford’s eFG%; no ridiculing Curry’s passing out of the double team. Just a good old optimistic belief that if the injury bug didn’t plague this team they would win.

    Is there still hope for the old Frank O.?


  12. (hat tip true hoop)

    Hmmm, Chad Ford, were you reading reading Knickerblogger this summer?


    Also, this might make interesting reading for the statistically inclined. Not WOW.


    Steals by centers: Teams benefit more in the point spread from an edge in steals at center than an equivalent edge at any other position.

    Last season?s leader: Ben Wallace of the Chicago Bulls led the league?s centers with 2.0 steals per 48 minutes played.

    Offensive rebounds by point guards: Teams benefit more in the point spread from an edge in offensive rebounds at the point guard spot than an equivalent edge at any other position.

    Last season?s leader: Jason Kidd of the New Jersey Nets led the league?s point guards with 2.2 offensive rebounds per 48 minutes played.

    Defensive rebounds by shooting guards: Teams benefit more in the point spread from an edge in defensive rebounding at the shooting guard position than an equivalent edge among post players.

    Last season?s leader: Josh Childress of the Atlanta Hawks led the league?s shooting guards with 8.3 defensive rebounds per 48 minutes played.

  13. I DO like the fact that the Nuggets are not exactly flush with outside shooters.

    And it’s also good to get Nuggets games over with so we don’t have to deal with the whole fight thing anymore – just one more time in Denver (boy, will that be sketchy).

  14. I still think the Knicks could have a decent year. Besides the lack of defense, if we can put up enough points, we COULD wind up something like 38-44. Which, would probably leave us just on the outside of the Eastern Conference playoff teams. But, it would still be an improvement, albeit slight. I am starting to feel like the Yankees as a Knicks fan. We always bring in the big names, or at least some of the bigger name free agents, but can never win!

  15. Anyone know of any way to watch NBATV bootleg online? I really want to watch the game tonite.

  16. I hate watching Denver play– all it does is remind me how much I love Marcus Camby and how he’s not a Knick anymore…

  17. ?the Nuggets don?t have many guys who knock it down too efficiently from three.?

    They’re 5-5 to open the game… (even if the last one was banked in)

  18. I seem to be the only one out there watching this Defensive clinic the Knicks are putting on…

    Denver’s on pace to score about 170 points.

  19. Every time Crawford does something good he follows it up by jacking up a terrible shot. Knicks holding in there though besides the D.

  20. Q and Zach look slow tonight. On the other hand Curry looks very good. Still, no real interior or perimeter D to speak of. Not even any transition D. Wonder if Isiah will go with the Second Unit tonight — it’s mostly been a mixture of the two squads.

  21. caught up in real time now, it’s nice to see that Iverson brings out some of the old Steph still, I wish he’d play this hard every night.

    still a turnstile on D, though, this may be a historically bad defensive team if Isiah sticks with this rotation…

  22. Balkman and Lee need to play more. The best lineup is whats out there right now… Lee Balkman nate crawford zBO. Fred Jones should come into lock up Melo… Iverson is awesome tonight, Nate is doing pretty well on him.

  23. These past three minutes are a microcosm of the argument against playing Curry and Q and for playing Balkman and Lee. It is painfully obvious that the Knicks are a more energetic and intelligent team with the young guys. Curry reminds me of Lenny in Of Mice and Men – that is to say huge and retarded. He does all the small things wrong.

  24. Yeah, Lee and Balkman are awfully fun to watch out there.

    I am so impressed that they’re sticking with Denver.

  25. I think Crawford needs to go back to the third grade and learn how to dribble with his head up. He completely missed Nate on the left wing for an open three. The little guy was hopping up and down trying to get his attention.

    I think Curry should retire and become a bouncer at a strip club. He’s huge, so he could crush anyone who messed with him, and he has no heart or motivation so he won’t go after the girls.

  26. All the way on the other side of the world I cant even see the game because the internet is too slow…I was raised a few blocks from the garden…and seeing some of your comments makes me wish i was back at home! I am just hoping another fight breaks out so throw Mardy Collins in there….a new yorker never nervous to have a philly guy take the fall….knick love from Asia

  27. Z:
    I got researched…?

    Well, I went back to August and found these entries:

    Frank O. Said:
    August 28th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
    I am a fan of the Knicks, just like everyone else on this board.
    I just can?t see a lot coming from Curry, Randolph, Crawford and Marbury.
    What I would love to see is the Knicks make room for Lee, Balkman, Collins, Morris, Q, Nichols, Chandler and even Jefferies to develop.
    We will lose plenty of games, but we all would enjoy watching a bunch of young kids work hard, play hungry and develop as a squad.
    I don?t see how Curry, Randolph, Crawford and Marbury are going to change much the flaws they have exhibited their entire careers.
    We are all hoping that each will find a way to break bad habits that have existed with them from day one.
    Curry – Weight, hustle, rebounding, shot-blocking and defense have always been weaknesses.
    Randolph – He has always been a subpar defender, and is an indictment waiting to happen.
    Crawford – He?s always been a black hole with sub par shooting, poor defense, and over dribbling.
    Marbury – A stats guy that isn?t a good chemistry guy, and, frankly, he?s recently been exposed as simply not that bright.
    I haven?t mentioned Cato, Rose, James and the two new guards the Knicks picked up because they?re really not going to see much time even on this team.

    Frank O. Said:
    August 6th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
    I know some folks love this guy, but I never liked Marbury?s game.
    Are these the qualities one needs in a PG?
    – His game acumen is weak.
    – His scoring is inconsistent.
    – He doesn?t work the boards much.
    – He has trouble passing into the post.
    – He prefers finding his own shot more than his teammates?.
    – He tends to pout when things don?t go his way, which would indicate a lack of mental toughness.
    – He is a classic matador defender, more interested these days, but still easily bypassed by quick, and not-so-quick guards.
    – His size also is a liability when his lateral speed is so limited.

    Frank O. Said:
    August 6th, 2007 at 9:29 pm

    Part of his problem passing to Curry was Curry?s poor positioning, but it was clear that Curry?s positioning didn?t seem to bother Crawford?which to me indicates that Crawford and Curry – who are close friends have rapport, whereas Steph wasn?t that thrilled conceding the franchise player title to Curry
    And I suspect Steph?s assists numbers suffered because the Knicks couldn?t hit the ocean with a rock?.
    It?s not all Steph?s problem, but with great wealth comes great responsibility. He earns more than twice as much as the next highest paid Knicks. He earns more than $19 million.
    Part of that is the Knicks fault?But Steph isn?t doing his part either?
    Frank O. Said:
    August 6th, 2007 at 10:54 pm

    I?ve just been frustrated by the guy from the outset. It may also be Isiah?s failing in elevating Marbury, which was done to build his confidence, and give Knicks fans hope. But it was a disservice to Marbury because he hasn?t been able to live up to the franchise moniker.
    My happy place would be Steph scoring 14 points and averaging 9 or so assists a game, and playing 30 minutes. That would be the best.

    Now, I also noticed I said several times that the Knicks could be a .500 team, with caveats.
    Curry needed to improve on the boards and defense.
    Marbury needed to become and assist machine.
    Crawford needed to either shoot better or choose shots better, and play a sixth man role.
    Lee and Balkman needed to play a larger role, but I also thought they were most effective role players. Good guys, great for the Knicks, but just very good players. I was even more on the fence about Balkman and Robinson, especially.

    But, Z, one thing is clear. The trial soured me. no doubt.

    Tonight, Iverson, Carmello and their 3pt shooters are killing the Knicks.

  28. Balkman is a monster. There is no way the Knicks can keep him the bench. He’s the only shot blocker, stopper defender, and he rebounds.
    He runs the floor like a demon.
    Lee is a man.
    this team is most competitive when Lee, Balkman and Robinson get 30 minutes…
    You have to love it when the young guys pound it.
    I’m listening to Gus Johnson tonight and it’s almost better than watching.
    What a great play by play guy!

  29. That charge was all because Balkman is such a smart defender. Melo had successfully used that quick spin/drop step to his right and that time B Dreds anticipated it and was there.

  30. knicks have great scoring balance.
    Marbury 21
    Crawford 20
    Randolph 20
    Curry 22
    Balkman 11
    Lee 9

  31. Four blocks tonight.
    Balkman 2 of them, Lee and Curry 1 each.

    Marbury 9 assists and Crawford 8.

    That’s what they have to do.

  32. Ok i can understand them not starting Robinson and Lee, but there is no way IT can not start Balkman over Q form now on.

    Sorry to keep harping on about it.

  33. If the Knicks make free throws this isn’t even close.
    14 of 25 is not good.

    the game is closer than it needs to be.
    But Gus screaming in my ear is very fun. I don’t think I want to hear another person call the Knicks games ever.

  34. Balkman has a good shot at unseating Anthony Mason as my favorite Knick ever, he’s an athletic freak. let’s get some quotes from Greg Anthony on that draft choice now…

  35. Denver scoring by period:
    37 29 26 20

    As Lee and Balkman came on you can see the Denver scoring begin to decline. Shots are challenged, shots are blocked.
    It’s a radically different team when they are on the court.
    And Randolph is a manster on the boards.

  36. I LOVE to see the incredible Balk on the floor.

    Quentin Richardson, you are the weakest link. Goodbye.

  37. Frank O.- did you hear Gus Johnson’s new nickname for Lee- “good things” – because good things always happen when he’s in the game, it doesnt take much thought, but i actually like it

    I had a feeling Balkman was going to have a Lee-esque sophomore jump this year. He’s simply awesome.

    And Randolph had a whole bucket of rebounds tonight.

  38. I just checked, and the 04-05 Knicks were over .500 as late as Game 31!!! Wow – I do NOT remember that!

  39. Clyde was hilarious tonight. He seemed more delirious than usual – like when he first said that Randolph’s big offensive rebound off of the free throw miss (WHAT A REBOUND by Randolph, by the by!) “sealed the game.”

    And Mike had to explain how it really didn’t seal the victory.

    But then Clyde repeated it, like, three more times. “That Randolph rebound sealed the victory.”

  40. Clyde suffered through some great teams playing some rough offense. He’s got to be loving all these baskets…
    But Gus was unbelievable.
    His growling, screaming, urgent delivery just cracks me up.

  41. That was the most heart (no pun intended) Curry has had in a long time. Imagin that everynight! Balkman, man we all hammered Isiah after that pick but boy is he panning out. LETS GO KNICKS

  42. OH MY GOD.

    Balkman is a beast and Q is in some serious danger of losing that starting spot.

    I am falling in love with Z-Bo fast after three games. The dude just looks like he wants the W so bad when he plays. And all this stuff about him being a black hole, I just don’t see it so far. The ball’s been moving plenty and he’s taking high percentage shots. Same with Curry, who is taking much less time to get position and make a move in the post than last season. With Lee, there’s not a single other team in the league that can put out two offensive monsters at the same time for ALL FORTY EIGHT MINUTES EVERY GAME. You can see in the fourth quarter how it just wears the opposition down, it takes a ton of energy and bruises to guard them.

    The three of them need a nickname fast. Ed-Z Curlee? Someone think of something, “the big three” is taken like twenty times over.

  43. HERES your nickname, courtesy of the good folks at postingandtoasting.com:

    the main one we concurred over there was “EZ Money.” Second place was (and first for comedy) “EZ Bake Oven.”

    GO KNICKS!!!

  44. Balkman was unbelievable tonight. Even though he made huge contributions outside the box score with his play on Anthony, his stats were extremely solid. His winscore was 2.2 better than the average small forward tonight.

    Randolph was monstrous tonight. He came up with some huge huge rebounds.

    Curry had a great fourth quarter, although his line was typically anemic before that. He had five big rebounds in the last frame. He also had an ENORMOUS block on Camby underneath the hoop. Total momentum changer, although I don’t believe in momentum. Probably the best defensive play I can remember seeing from him, certainly the most clutch.

    They stepped it up on defense, but the Knicks had a big edge on the boards tonight, 49-40, with five extra offensive rebounds.

    Although Walt was taking about how Lee and Balkman changed the game when they came in, Lee’s numbers were actually not that great. He has looked good in the first three games, but not as good as last year. I think Z-Bo’s rebounding effects his stats somewhat. We shall see. He has still been much better than the average PF, and he definitely needs more minutes. 23 is not enough.

  45. 1050 ESPN

    What a great game tonight! I love how Randolph has seamlessly become part of this team and I LOVE Balkman. The man needs a Red Bull endorsement.

  46. I actually think this game turned on about 5 calls by the refs that could have gone either way, but in each instance went in the Knicks’ favor. (I can’t recall exactly the order these happened in)

    1. The Crawford non-travel call w/1:30 left. Crawford hit a tough runner, but he did that same “hop-step” move that he’d been whistled for at LEAST twice earlier in the game. Knicks go up three. Karl going apoplectic..

    2. The Balkman charge v. Anthony. It was a nice move by Balkman, but he clearly was stepping INTO Anthony. Shoulda been a charge. This was at 101-101, I believe.

    3. Right after that play, Balkman got the ball from Curry on a give-and-go (I was stunned too), and they called blocking. Now, it probably WAS blocking, but considering the degree to which the defender moved was the same degree as Balkman’s play, it could have easily been a charge.

    4. The phantom foul on Eddy’s 3-point play. Curry got an offensive rebound (another stunner), and laid it in, w/o anyone even NEAR him, yet the refs gave him a layup. This put the Knicks up three (I forget exactly when). Right after Curry missed the free throw…

    5. Randolph and Camby were battling for the rebound and as the ball was going out of bounds, they whistled Camby for holding Zach. It was clearly a foul, but the hand-fighting that goes on, especially w/a rebound that’s going out of bounds, is almost NEVER called. This sent Randolph right back to the line.

    Not that I’m griping about the home team getting the calls, but it’s rare that in crucial moments, one team gets all the close ones. IN terms of momentum (sorry Owen) IMHO, it made a HUGE difference in this game.

    And I loves me some Renaldo Balkman, too!

  47. I love to see a team play with that kind of energy. Balkman really became thge leader of the defense in the second half.

    Lets give some credit to the conductor, Stephon Marbury. 21 pts 9 ast.

    The team fought hard and earned a win but there are still things that must be fixed.

    1. The defense was horrid whenever Lee and Blakman left the floor.

    2. Knicks shot under 60% from the line.

    3. Turnovers.

    Good things:

    1. David “good things” Lee

    2. The second crown jewel of Isiah’s draft dominance, Renaldo Balkman. I love the way he is making people eat those words from draft night 2006.

    3. Stephon Marbury

    4. Zach randolph’s 17 boards. Man he is like Windex the way he cleans glass. A few posts ago some laughed at my notion that adding Zach was like adding 10 wins to the team. Well if Frye had been playing at PF instead of Zach, I dont think he pulls down 17 boards. Actually, if Zach wasnt hear Lee would be starting and Lee would have gotten 17.

    Does anyone think the 8 man rotation can last? Marbury is the only player of the 8 over 30. I hope IT doesnt run them down like Pat Riley would.

  48. Owen- I couldn’t believe Curry’s block on Camby. I literally had my fist in the air ready to pound the side of my chair in frustration as Camby went up for the easy lay-in over Curry. That was the most unexpected play of the game.

  49. I think the refs HAD to call the Camby foul on Randolph, as it appeared clear that, had he not been held, he WOULD have gotten the ball.

    So it was either call the foul or reward the Nuggets for fouling Randolph.

    And I think that’s an easy decision.

    But yes, normally, those sort of holding calls are not called – this one just happened to be a clear case of “Either you call a foul or the team loses the ball.”

  50. Doesn’t Q rich look like he is still hurt, any one he guards is going around him and he’s definitely not hustling for loose balls. I say play him under 20 min a game

  51. it was interesting watching the knicks forcourt that could have been(canby and nene) playing against the knicks that “are” Not only were the could have beens pushed around (and nene isn’t a little guy) they both fouled out. I think many forcourts are going to find it very difficult to just stay on the court against these guys.

    Also i am a bit less worried about rebounding with randolph, balkman and lee available. Curry is doing a little better job on the boards, but those three and in particular randolph are great rebounders. when you have two great rebounders on the court (and usually at least two of them are there for most of the game), the weaker rebounders should just block out and get the boards that just come to them. Let the guys with superior mathchups do the active rebounding. Just like you let your better passers pass and your better shooters shoot, you should do the same thing on the boards.

    btw, excellent discussion of the team concept of rebounding in one of red auerbachs books, oldie but goodie

  52. It’s not a big disagreement, but I’ll never again have the chance to defend David Lee vs. Owen… so here goes! Why do you say, “He has looked good in the first three games, but not as good as last year?”

    Scoring/40: 16.0 this year vs. 14.4
    TS: 65.3 vs. 65.2
    Reb/40: 11.9 vs 13.7
    Ast/40: 11.1 vs. 15.5
    TO rate: 3.7 vs. 13.7

    To throw out PER #s, he’s at 23.11 vs. 20.31 last year. And of course the defensive is dramatically better when he’s on the floor. (I know, that’s like saying he’s skinnier than Jerome James)

    Rebounding a bit less, perhaps because of Randolph. Turnovers way down, even though he’s touching the ball just as much.

    It’s a tiny sample size, but he still looks like easily the best player, and obviously needs more burn.

  53. Like I said yesterday Balkman needs to start and Chandler should be his backup. Q is clearly not ready and is a liability out there. The Knicks need to start strong they can’t keep falling behind by ten points and expect to come back and win every game. That Fat bastard Curry needs to play like he played in the fourth quarter every night.

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