(Sunday, July 07, 2019 6:39:16 PM)
The way free agency played out came as no surprise to newly acquired Knicks big man Bobby Portis, relays Mike Vorkunov of The Athletic. Portis said was certain in February that Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving were planning to team up in Brooklyn for the Nets. “We all knew that. Everybody knew that,” he said. […]
(Monday, July 08, 2019 12:20:00 AM)
How are RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox and Mitchell Robinson progressing so far?
(Sunday, July 07, 2019 10:14:28 PM)
LAS VEGAS — Knicks center Mitchell Robinson only blocked two of Zion Williamson’s shots in the Earthquake Game on Friday at Thomas & Mack Center. But that’s probably because Williamson only got through nine minutes before he was shut down for the summer league with knee and back pain. Robinson didn’t seem all excited about…
(Sunday, July 07, 2019 9:34:40 PM)
LAS VEGAS — Frank Ntilikina, the Knicks’ 2017 lottery pick, welcomes the competition after the team signed yet another point guard and claims he still wants to be with the team that drafted him. The Knicks’ point-guard situation got a lot messier with the imminent signing of Elfrid Payton. Training camp stands to be a…
(Sunday, July 07, 2019 8:17:48 PM)
LAS VEGAS — Oddly, the Knicks seem to have better luck with their second-round draft picks than their lottery picks lately. In the second game at the Las Vegas Summer League, second-round pick Ignas Brazdeikis stole the show from fellow Canadian RJ Barrett to rack up 30 points, but the Knicks faded late in a…
(Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:23:30 PM)
LAS VEGAS — Bobby Portis, the Knicks’ new 6-foot-11 backup power forward, says all the players knew back in February that Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving were headed to Brooklyn. It seems hard to fathom, but Portis says he had “sources.” “I knew what was gonna happen in February,” he reportedly said courtside during a…
(Monday, July 08, 2019 1:28:50 AM)
Frank Ntilikina was visiting with the Knicks’ Summer League team on Sunday night, unfazed by his involvement in recent trade rumors.
(Monday, July 08, 2019 12:26:20 AM)
A report indicated that Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving knew ‘months ago’ they would be teaming up in Brooklyn. Apparently it was not a well-kept secret.
(Sunday, July 07, 2019 11:35:00 PM)
The Knicks faltered late in the second half and fell to 0-2 in the Las Vegas Summer League as they lost to the Phoenix Suns 105-100 in overtime on Sunday.
167 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2019.07.08)”
So… I have no idea what fivethirtyeight projections really mean but I found myself clicking through the black hole that is the internet, and guess what, RJ’s closest projection is our boy Carmelo… so just thought that was great.
I would sign up for RJ being Carmelo Anthony in a heartbeat. Or even Greg Anthony. Right now, he projects as Susan B. Anthony.
Rookie Melo was actually a very good player (for a rookie, of course), .098 WS/48 on 28.5% USG is nothing to scoff at during your first season. I wish RJ’s actual outcome was “early-prime Melo”, since right now he looks more like a shorter Zarko Paspalj.
To be fair, he would definitely give Andy Rautins a run for his money.
Having said that it’s waaaay too early to call RJ a bust, what does it say about our FO that our first round picks never look good from the start while our second round picks do? Frank vs. Dotson; Knox vs. Mitch (vs. Trier); RJ vs. Iggy Brazzy (vs. Wooten? I like him).
Idk. Old footage suggests Susan B Anthony had a mean postup game and true mamba mentality. Also, she never turned the ball over 8 times in one game against… looks at notes… Billy Garrett???
Cue Knicks draft apologists round 3: but he’s only 19!! One day he might not suck!!!
RJB skipped draft combine, which I guess is the norm for lottery picks. Did Knicks privately test him?
ive never been onboard with hardly any of our draft picks… but ppl seriously need to chill… theres plenty of time to tell ppl i told you sos at the end of the season..
ppl are acting like this is their first summer league…
In other news, Brandon Clarke looked great last night…
This the new cleanthony early! Lol
We usually save that for players that show some skills that are not being measured properly by the popular metrics. We are still searching.
Okay, so we have plenty of examples of guys like Anthony Randolph (sigh) looking like worldbeaters in summer league and turning out to be scrubs in the regular season. Besides Trae Young, who’s looked like trash in Vegas/Orlando and eventually turned out to be good when it counted?
Looking for reasons to be optimistic. I know it’s only summer league, but his performance so far seems to be bearing out all of the criticisms of him leading up to the draft.
durant… curry and aaron gordon just off the top of my head….
I do think Barrett will play better than this, but we do have a whole year of him playing mediocre basketball against college players. It’s not a 2 game sample, it’s a whole year at Duke plus two games
(Plus if I don’t trash talk now and he turns out to be good, then I won’t get to trash talk).
Yeah, there have been plenty of players who struggled in Summer League and were still good players. It’s still mostly meaningless. It’s primarily about the lesser guys proving they belong and not so much about seeing whether the top prospects are actually good or not. The lesser guys need to show that they can hang with their peers. It should be a given for the top guys.
I still can’t believe Brandon Clarke dropped so far. Dang.
In all seriousness, he looks very nervous to me (especially game 1). That probably accounts for some of the misses and TOs. I said after game 1 he looked like boxers used to look when they were walking into the ring to face Mike Tyson. It was a look of frozen terror.
I don’t have that much of a problem with him missing shots over the course of 2 lousy games. It just feels worse when one of the fears coming in was his outside shot. He’s not even getting to the rack or passing well which we hoped would carry him while he developed a better shot over the years.
He’s not this bad.
As an aside, Memphis is such a glaring example of the impact that you can have when you get a new GM and they start playing, like, rudimentary chess. Not even, like, fancy Masai-level grandmaster chess. Just decent chess. Since so many of the GMs are out there playing checkers, Zach Kleiman playing even shitty chess puts Memphis so far ahead in the game.
Here, for instance, we’re thrilled that Perry is at least up to the level of playing checkers like the other mediocre GMs.
Honestly beside the “lol sample size” argument, the guy has been truly horrid like a non defending , thicker Jared Jefferies. NO handle… awful shooting…. handles the ball like a hot grenade, can’t hit a free throw, , rebounds well.
In all honesty…. he has showed less than nothing and it is getting concerning.
Allen had a huge infestation of suck fever…..
OTOH… Iggy Stardust doesn’t look like an NBA player, but plays like one. He has the old Bill Bradley “Sense of where he is” on the court and understands how to play the game. He made a couple of nice baseline moves besides the 3 ball shooting. He has grit and he plays stronger and more aggressively that he looks. You can see he believes he is good and he actually is.
Wooten played well and is exactly as advertised.
Mitch was Mitch and Knox was Knox with the exception his 3 ball shooting has been pristine.
What an awesome game Iggy has!
Looks like a legit baller. Oh this could be good
@18
Define checkers?
Not doing anything really smart, making a series of mistakes, but no mistakes of the deadly variety?
To me, the plan sucked, they executed it poorly, and we are probably still among the worst few teams in the NBA even though we overpaid a few veterans to join the mess. This is several years into it.
To me, “checkers” is taking a bad situation, making some good and bad moves, but slowly improving the team and it’s long term position over time. If the team and position have both gotten worse, you are playing tiddlywinks.
Chess is limiting the mistakes to “rare”.
High level chess is finding moves that no one else was even discussing as a possibility and them pulling them off in a coup.
Don’t besmirch tiddlywinks, dude.
But otherwise I find myself in uncomfortable agreement with Strat. The blindingly obvious #3 pick (vs. various 3-D options), Portis (?!) and a bunch of other mediocre vets, spending all your money so you have no next moves — when you put them all together, this is checkers.
I’m not giving up by any means, but the truth is the truth: RJ has looked like a poor man’s Ntilikina.
Most disturbing to me is how slow and non-explosive he looks and how he plays below the rim like a 35 year old crafty veteran without the crafty. I knew he couldn’t shoot, but I thought he’d be more athletic and more of a finisher from what I saw at Duke. He just throws up wild layups from 5 feet away – the equivalent to Knox and his little push shot (which he seems to have stopped doing, so maybe there’s hope for him).
I’m hoping he’s just out of shape or something.
He’s not in game shape, which is why his legs and his game get progressively worse as the game goes along. (*) Zion wasn’t in game shape, either. Pretty much none of these lottery picks are, and they aren’t playing for anything like the second rounders and FAs are. There’s little hunger there, and it shows. (That’s the answer to Farfa’s question why the second rounders look better than the firsts.)
(Add Paul George to the guys who didn’t look so good in summer league.)
I’m not going to lose my shit in either direction based on a handful of scrimmage games in summer league. RJ isn’t a bust and Iggy isn’t going to be supermaxed in a few years just because of 2019 summer league.
(*) If RJ’d just called it a night after the first quarter, none of these conversations would be unfolding.
You know there’s a problem when djphan is heading for the exit…I recall him saying that RJ should be a very solid starter as a rookie….I suppose it’s still possible
RJ is Frank with a chip on his shoulder and without the long arms. No burst, atrocious shooter, dicey handle, some dishing ability, fluent in French, meaningless accolades in teenage tournaments. If he’s too slow, then he needs to shoot lights out and rely on screens. How is he this slow when his Mom was a nationally ranked sprinter at St John’s University? It’s the combination of lack of speed and lack of shooting which is so alarming.
I like the kid. On draft night you could tell his emotion was genuine when he spoke about his grandpa. I want him to succeed so bad for him and for the team. But I’d be on the phone offering RJ, Knox, and Portis for Beal before the next aftershock (ie next summer league game). We need legit young above average starters other than Mitch. Taj needs to be ripping Randle every day about his defense. If Randle could go from atrocious on defense to just bad, he could be another above average guy.
Instead of all of us whining, Farfa should draft a letter to Dolan which will go out on Knickerblogger.net letterhead and Mike Kurylo’s signature. We should be recommending that Mills be redeployed to administrative duties and Zach Lowe or Pelton be hired as new GM with exclusive responsibility for all player related decisions. Those are “names” he might accept since they work for ESPN. The time is right given the Nets success with a nerd at the helm and NYK abject failure this summer to land a tier 1 free agent(s).
@24
I agree, this is what scared me watching those two games. I expected Barrett to be explosive, at least physically, a guy who could overpower smaller defenders and get to the rim, but so far he’s been tentative and very slow every time, no lift and no urgency at all.
Yes summer league should not matter and we should not overreact, it really doesn’t mean much. But just observing those games in a vacuum, you don’t see a NBA player there.
What were they playing when they traded Tim Hardaway jr for a 1st round pick, got congratulated for winning a trade, then turned around and paid $71,000,000 to get him back? Chutes and Ladders?
In the first few minutes of last night’s game, Barrett beat his guy for an alley-oop slam and shortly thereafter was the lead guy on a p/r and pulled up for a made three. Nice, versatile skill set on display. Ran out of steam after that. Imma chalk it up to not being in game shape. If he’s still playing this way in February, I’ll start to worry.
He’s going to get traded for Russell F Westbrook, isn’t he?
@28
The Blue Whale Challenge?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Whale_Challenge
It seems at least possible that RJ is missing the quickness and speed part of being an NBA player, but has everything else. That would explain why he looked like the #1 prospect in high school, only occasionally looked like a great pick at Duke, and looks like shit in the summer league.
If that’s the case… gulp.
Yeah, pretty much. Just not making deadly mistakes is sadly better than most GMs out there.
We would be very lucky if RJ turned out to be Melo. Hopefully with less ego and more passing ability.
He ran out of steam in the first few minutes of a basketball game? Yikes!
For a guy that has probably played basketball 12 hours a day for the past few years, you’d think he’d be able to get to the first timeout without hitting a wall.
(Versatile skill set on display, but only while supplies last!)
Denver trades for Jerami Grant, very very solid pickup for them. It seems Presti just wants to blow everything up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHmJ9VPlXEA
fuck this team
Wow, Jerami Grant to Denver for a 2020 first rounder. We get it, Sam Presti, you’re good at acquiring first rounders. Stop making us feel bad.
I have to add that I saw another high usage, high scorer, Allen Iverson, in the Westchester Summer League as a draftee (granted, he was older and playing against worse competition than RJ) and he was awesome. I think even AI’s biggest critics on here would be pretty pleased if RJ ended up being as good.
What a nice pickup for Denver. They can now let Millsap go and Grant can pick up, like, 60% of his impact at 30% of the price.
So Presti turned SERGE IBAKA (and a Top-20 protected FRP that turns into a 2nd rounder) into:
Gallo,
SGA,
2020 Denver FRP
2021 Miami (unprotected) FRP
2022 LAC (unprotected) FRP
2023 Miami (top 14 prot.) FRP
2023 pick swap
2024 LAC (unprotected) FRP
2025 pick swap
2026 LAC (unprotected) FRP
How’s that for chess?
If that’s the case (and it definitely looks like it could be, as Barrett is clearly more gifted than, say, our own Kevin Knox), what the hell happens during private pre-draft meetings with potential draft picks? Last year it was about 3-on-3. This year did really nobody think to make RJ sprint with and without the ball? To measure his vertical? To put him through ball handling drills (btw, I don’t agree at all with people saying he has no handle. To my eyes he’s very comfortable dribbling the ball, unlike Knox or – gulp – Frank. He’s just goofy and slow as fuck)?
That said, quickness is not the be-all, end-all for an NBA player. If he learns to be crafty, he can still be an NBA player without a doubt. If he doesn’t, he’s a slower Evan Turner/dumber Kyle Anderson.
RJ isn’t shooting it well but he grabbed 10 boards (as a primary 2 guard), had 2 steals and a block in 32 minutes. There are things to be encouraged about even if the shot isn’t falling.
Iggy Brazdekis’ age/stat profile suggest he would have been a top 3 pick if his name was Cam Reddish or Nasir Little. I’m excited about what seems to be yet another solid 2nd round pick.
i never have a binary opinion on prospects…. but two summer league games is not gonna change my outlook on rj or anyone else for that matter….
i know ppl overweigh all the things that happen with the ball but things like shooting numbers and turnovers are the worst indicators of anything in summer league…. these are glorified pickup games… played in the summer when most of these guys haven’t seen action since the college or pro season ended….
that’s not to excuse rj’s poor play.. cause he has been doodoo and all his deficiencies are being magnified now … and that’s not to say that he definitely won’t play like this when the games are for real…. but young guys who have the ball in their hands a lot tend to look a lot like rj irrespective of how they eventually pan out….
RJ definitely looks shell-shocked out there. You can give him that for the first game, but after two, the slowness and sloppiness is still there. Out of shape? Hmm.
Most of his free throw and jump shots aren’t really close. Not airballs, but serious bricks.
and for the same reasons you shouldn’t freak out about rj… i wouldn’t automatically think iggy is a good player either…
@44
Absolutely. That said, there are things that make you wonder, like the total absence of touch around the rim. The dreadful free throw shooting. The carelessness with which RJ turned the ball over on a live high dribble with less than 2 minutes to go. If this was 2K19, it would be expected. I’m a bit scared the Dolan’s Razor just struck again.
I remember the first time I watched RJ play for Duke. I thought to myself, “THIS is RJ Barrett, super prospect? This guy fuckin’ sucks.” Then I compared him to Andrew Wiggins and a lot of people on here took exception to that. Then he did play better later in the season, and I had to admit that yes, he was a better player and prospect than Wiggins.
But after watching him these last two games, I have the same feeling: THIS is the consensus #3 pick? Why, exactly? Eye-test wise he looks pedestrian, then you look at the box score and you see he was personally responsible for like 20 empty possessions. He doesn’t look like a quick-twitch athlete and his ball skills look poor.
So I dunno, maybe he’ll get better as the season progresses. He did that at Duke. But he has never really impressed me. His game is clunky, awkward and not aesthetically pleasing.
Well we have back to back games on Tuesday and Wednesday to collectively gnash our teeth as RJ throws up more bricks.
But I’m not giving up yet, maybe by the end of the week (-:
Big deal. The Knicks turned $70 mil in cap space into:
Bobby Portis
Taj Gibson
Julius Randle
Reggie Bullock
Wayne Ellington
Elfrid Payton
How’s that for….um…..tic tac toe?
Barring injuries, Memphis is going to be so good in a few years.
Feeling like I want to jump ship today. I’m sick of being jealous of practically every other team in the league. RJ is Rudy Gay at best. I really wish we had traded that pick when we could’ve.
I keep wanting to view Perry as “smart,” but his talent evaluation has been fairly awful and now with his ‘no bad contracts for picks’ mandate, I’m wondering if he’s just a bad GM?
We are good at picking in the 2nd round, though.
Wayne Ellington got waived last season, but it was huge of Perry to get him to agree to a team option for the second year of his contract.
I wonder if RJ went through an adrenaline dump these past two games. I don’t know how much it carries over to basketball, but inexperienced boxers and MMA fighters panic at the beginning of fights and then when the adrenaline rush is over, they have nothing in the tank. If he’s as mentally overwhelmed as observed, maybe that’s what’s going on? idk
In the meantime, I’m not going to expend energy worrying about him. The sample size is still too small for me and I’m not informed enough about basketball to make any eye test conclusions.
I thought the same thing, and then I thought about how bad it would be if he’s one of those “elite athletes” who can’t manage his emotions long enough to perform.
Remember, though, Memphis only got to this point by their previous moronic management being so bad (Chris Wallace was in charge. Chris Wallace!!). So there is hope for all organizations. But they typically need to go through some rough waters before they get to smooth sailing.
The shot isn’t falling (and basketball is a game of making shots), but the other parts of his game are there for the most part. I’m not even slightly worried through his first two summer league performances and still think RJ Barrett will be an excellent pro.
Yes, and obviously luck plays a part (picking #2 instead of #3).
I think this will set everyone’s mind at ease: best comparison for RJ is Landry Fields, but without the command of fundamentals. Really though — he’ll get better but he’s not going to be a generational talent. My prediction is he’ll be the difference maker in a handful of games — enough that it’ll set expectations higher than they should be that he does it every night. He won’t. But he could be a solid component of an otherwise functioning team.
The best thing that could happen to an alpha, top prospect player like Barrett is to struggle in summer league in the exact areas where people have concerns about his game.
The games are meaningless, but if he has this insane drive and work ethic that he supposedly has, getting exposed like this early is the best thing that can happen to him. If he came into summer league and dominated, it could make him think he has nothing to work on. Now he knows for sure that he can’t just coast on his pedigree.
Trae Young sucked in summer league last year. There are plenty of players who sucked in summer league who went on to have amazing NBA careers and vice versa. The scrubs are playing for their lives, too.
What a nice pickup for Denver. They can now let Millsap go and Grant can pick up, like, 60% of his impact at 30% of the price.
they already picked up his option.
I mean next year. They’re both free agents next year (Grant technically has a $9.7 million option, but I would have to imagine he’ll 100% turn that down), and Grant should be a lot cheaper to bring back.
There is a lot of pressure to be the man and live up to the hype of being one of the top prospects in the draft. Let him settle into the season. Go through camp with some pros, play preseason and a few months of real games and he’ll settle down. He’s going to be fine.
oh i see. yeah millsap prob doesn’t have more than a year or two left. but then he respawns on the celts as grant williams.
It’s also important to note that Summer League is some of the most desperate basketball you’ll see. So many guys don’t have an NBA contract and are playing for their basketball lives, so there’s a lot of selfishness involved. RJ Barrett is a rhythm player used to touching the ball every time down the floor. It feels like the Knicks will be running their offense through Barrett and Knox this year, so I’m expecting him to look much better (you know, like going 7/17 instead of 3/15) during the regular season.
He also just turned 19 years old last month so patience is necessary with him. The Zion Curve will always make Barrett look worse, but the kid has a sky high ceiling once that shot starts to fall.
on brand today
As long as we’re talking Harvey Grant’s offspring and summer league, who can forget Jerian Grant’s finals MVP performance in the 2016 Vegas summer league? (*) Double-double, 24 points, 1o boards, bitches!!
(*) Your league MVP? Tyus Jones.
Maybe it’s just me but I think it would be better if he was really good in summer league.
I wish I had your optimism. He’s too slow for me to be optimist about him.
you guys are all worried about his speed but maybe i need lasik again because that’s not what jumps out at me; his speed looks ok. when i watch him it looks like he doesn’t have the handle of a nba initiator, doesn’t have good touch around the basket, doesn’t have quick recognition off the handle to put it mildly, and is really really fucking bad at playing team defense. he seems strong and reasonably fast and has good feet in space, though not quick or explosive.
While I think it’s fair to want to see some immediate return on a #3 overall pick, I don’t get the hand-wringing of Barrett. Some are ready to jump ship on the rookie bc of two (bad) summer league games… summer league. It’s not even preseason – at minimum, he’ll have an additional 2 months of offseason to process his experiences and get ready for the season. And even that won’t be enough time for him to completely adjust to what he’ll see in his first NBA season.
He seems like an athleticism-based player who doesn’t have elite athleticism. That’s… not great.
Thanks for setting me straight yesterday on LAC. I should do a bit more homework before bloviating sometimes.
It’s just that I’d love a crew of misfits to win one year. Just some weird anomaly where everyone outplays the back of their bubble gum card. But it’s really like tennis. Is there any doubt that Djokovic will be in the Wimbledon final? Almost none. In the NBA you have to have his equivalent and we have Sam Querry.
Speaking of our island of misfit toys, oy. I know it’s summer league but that’s our actual starting five out there. I want to have an open mind and there’s no way to go but up but Barrett has been absolutely brutal.
Trey Lyles now a free agent because of the Grant move. Man, Lyles would be an interesting buy low guy to get. I really don’t get why they rushed to lock in some of the guys they signed. “You can’t pass up a chance to lock in Wayne Ellington!”
Shams:
@71
I wish I could peek in on an alternate reality where the Knicks did not sign Portis or Ellington and see how much they sign for… Then again, maybe I don’t want to see that. My blood pressure.
🙂
This is definitely true. I hope he pans out. It’s asking a lot for him to be productive as a rookie. He’s probably not going to be a good player for a while. And this is, of course, summer league. Definitely best not to overreact.
That said, he also looked like this a lot of the time in a larger sample size at Duke. His game is just kind of an eyesore, there’s nothing smooth or polished about it. He did show some development within the season at Duke, let’s hope we see the same here.
@THCJ If RJ was tearing up summer league right now you would be saying summer league doesn’t mean anything, let’s see how he plays in real games. If that is good reasoning why not apply it consistently? Just get through summer league with no injuries and a better grasp of the fringe guys and I’ll be happy.
Frank, think about Brandon Jennings. Remember how he dropped 50 in like his 8th NBA game? Won rookie of the year, took the Bucks to the playoffs, yada yada yada.
He never got better though. And now he’s out of the league.
I want a player who has the potential to be great and reaches that potential. RJ certainly has that potential. I’d rather he be made super aware of what he needs to work on now than have some mild success and rest on his laurels.
Summer league is meaningless.
Everyone is quick to provide examples of players who dominated Summer League but never panned out in the career but what would provide better reassurance that Barrett could pan out in his career is an example of good or great NBA player who badly sucked in Summer League. Is there such an example?
To use your metaphor, at least we’re not writing the letter R in those spaces anymore.
In which alternate universe did Jennings win ROTY?
I don’t think he’s a 20 FG% shooter, so I’m really not all that concerned that he’s this bad. No player in the history of the league would be as bad over 82 games as he has been in the last two summer league games. It’s just not possible, not even for our Mapleine Mamba.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/rj-barrett-1.html
R.J. is looking like a fringe guy, himself.
This is what I keep circling back to. As someone who doesn’t watch much college at all and only knows these guys by their reputations/what NBA people are saying I was prepared for the shot to look pretty ugly. But for a #3 pick who’s a wing that can’t really shoot you’d expect some pretty eye-popping athleticism and that’s definitely not the case so far. It’s so incredibly early but he looks like an average athlete who is weak in the most important skill category (shooting). I think the secondary skills actually look decent but that’s stilll a problematic combo.
I would imagine that he’s confusing Jennings with Michael Carter-Williams.
The Bulls are going to try to acquire Justin Holliday in a sign and trade for Kris Dunn. Justin Holliday, who the Bulls traded last year. That’s such a Knicksy move.
For the record I don’t think RJ is a high likelihood to pan out player, but summer league performance has no bearing on that belief.
3D Chutes and Ladders.
Isiah Thomas playing Candyland as GM. He actively needs the rules to be setup to prevent you from doing anything stupid. You literally just move your piece according to random chance, there is no active choices. And that’s why we can’t trade 2 consecutive 1sts.
Yeah, Jerami Grant for them is a really great pickup. Denver fans I have seen are very happy about this move.
Denver has some legitimate sleepr championship equity. Their main pieces are all young and about to be entering their primes so it isn’t out of the realm of posssibilites they can improving and adding pieces to their game.
RJ has basically looked like a Draft Express player weaknesses video thus far. On the plus side, Iggy looks like he could wind up being a Bogdanovic type guy. Definitely needs to tighten his handle but has a nice feel for the game. And while it’d be nice to see Knox at least make a smidgen of effort defensively, I’ll take a .610 TS% through two games. His three ball looks very legit and he looks a little more coordinated on his drives. I’ll make the bold prediction that he won’t be the worst player in the NBA this year. Finally, I really hope Mitch doesn’t let his shot-blocking success go to his head- he looked like Javelle McGee 2.0 on defense last night. 6 fouls and at least 4 goal tends against just 2 actual blocks- that’s not good defense.
if you noticed much of rj’s misses were hitting the front part of the rim… i probably estimate it was half of his shots… so it could be that he has some conditioning issues and/or that he’s getting used to the nba 3pt line… he also has tweaked his release…. i’m not so worried about his shot all that much because it’s a)summer league and b)he has demonstrated improvement from hs to college and c)he’s working with a great shooting coach….
he has been getting to the rim but his handle is a bit loose and high and doing anything with his right is a disaster…. that’s probably more concerning than anything else but all that was known before the draft… the good part is that he knows about it… the bad part is that those things aren’t gonna be fixed in one summer or one season but those aren’t must have right away skills… those are more smoothing out the rough edges….
i would still pay attention to that but the areas where you might see some translation in summer league are the secondary numbers… boards.. stls and blks… and he’s been reasonable there…. kp similarly performed about as well in those categories from his summer league play… i also wouldn’t automatically judge a good or bad performance on that alone either… but if you want to properly weigh your expectations… i would start there first …
Anxiety levels impressively high today. Even for KB. I love it that we are at Defcon 2 in July.
rj has been a good rebounder but you don’t want to be comforted by these steals. the kid either gets beat or is in the wrong place on like 2 out of 3 defensive possessions. actually the only two guys who have played even half decent team defense are cavanaugh and kadeem. mitch has been a world beater but also maximum spastic.
Braz feels like fool’s gold
Some of his shots in the paint came on very soft defense. He seems to have a three stroke, but real NBA players will make him eat his shit in the paint. I mean, he had open looks in the paint and wasn’t dunking, he was banking. Not sure that will play in the NBA. he won’t have the time or space.
And yet he looked better by a lot than the number 3 pick in the draft.
I still think RJ is a bit overwhelmed. He’s thinking rather than playing. His jumper is hesitant. He’s short and brick long.
But his college states were underwhelming. Poor from three, below average from 2. Shitty from FT for a wing. He would have benefited from a year or two more in college.
i admit some mild summer optimism hearing dsj talking about reworking his shot from scratch. these things don’t have a good hit rate but damn if there isn’t a ton of leverage attached to him fixing his obviously broken shooting form. someone post a video if they see one.
I think it is an illusion that RJ has been getting to the rim. He threw up a lot of wild shots close to the rim, but he only actually “got to the rim” on the alley ooop. That’s where my main concern is – the lack of explosiveness that he’s shown so far.
Based on some of the posts, I guess this disclaimer needs to be left here…:
** Summer league games are meaningless….past results do not guarantee future performance….I’m only stating what I’ve observed to date……
So… no one’s gonna talk about the fact that Kyrie and Kevin’s decision was made in February and only the players knew it? Before Durant got hurt? That our management got strung along? That Iguodala was essentially right when he said, “Nobody is going to the Knicks, sorry”?
If you believe all of that, then you gotta bump Perry’s off season grade up a notch, because neither he nor us knew Durant-to-NYK was DOA. Ok, so he’s not interested in taking on salary dumps for picks, and signing Portis was questionable. But he kept his word on building roster and salary flexibility while investing in young players. And he keeps Mills from handing out stupid contracts. He’s fine with me.
Now, he may never be able to overcome the overall stench of Dolan, but we can’t hold that against him.
Avery Bradley to the Lakers. That’s a good pick-up for them.
i’m not using steals and even blocks as proxies for defense… it’s more about athleticism and ‘getting to the ball’…
rj hasn’t shown great defense at all… i agree there… but getting to the ball is almost half of what makes a good player .. and there should be some weight to that… esp since shooting is so volatile and almost every marquee player shoots poorly in summer league…
we’re talking a grand total of 15 boards and 2stls and 1 blk… so i’m not getting carried away…. but the point is that just like with anything it’s probably less bad than what conventional wisdom thinks….
@92 this onewas on twitter yesterday.
I love how you guys are just whitewashing RJ’s shitty start.
50% of the games he played got called early on account of an earthquake.
do you know how that projects over a full season?
I don’t have much to add to the RJ discussion other than he had way more red flags than the typical 3rd overall pick and he’s accentuated basically all of them so far. I do think it’s important not to overreact, but this is a case where the eye test is almost more worrying to me than the (bad) stats. I’m just not seeing…much of anything to be honest. I don’t trust my lying eyes and he has nowhere to go but up, but it’s been ugly. I don’t blame management much because he was at least a reasonable choice at #3 with the highest perceived value, though I would’ve loved a trade down. We’ll just have to hope I guess.
Shifting gears, what on Earth is the starting lineup going to be? At first glance DSJ-Bullock-RJ-Randle-Mitch seems like a decent combination of guys we want to develop and guys who don’t suck. I really have no idea what they’ll settle on though. It’s hard to imagine them “demoting” Knox but it’s very hard to fit him in anywhere. All I know is if Mitch isn’t starting I’m gonna be apo-fucking-plectic.
I’ll be surprised if Knox isn’t the starting three. I think management would like to see a DSJ, RJ, Knox, Randle, Mitch starting five but they also want to try to win some (at least at the start of the season) so I think the only guy who’s guaranteed to start is Randle. As long as Mitch doesn’t play like a total space cadet like he did last night you can probably pencil him as well.
I have so much Knick’s PTSD that when I read Zach Lowe’s piece today about the winners and losers in free agency, it took a minute for it to sink in that he didn’t write up the Knicks as losers and then I thought “that’s progress”.
We should have traded out of the 3 spot but you people need to chill out after 2 summer league games
@98 LOL 100% of Zion’s #Zionpocalypse
@97 thanks for posting that. kind of looks he’s trying to imitate D’Lo. hitch looks like it’s still there, but more subtle. summer is the season of hope.
Elfrid Payton has to have the inside track on DSJ unless the latter improves, no?
I think we start the year trying to win games. That means the vets plus Mitch. As people repeatedly point out, Knox and RJ are very young. They don’t need to be thrown into the lineup full time yet. On the other hand, Knox would benefit from being option 4 or 5 in a lineup next to vets and Mitch.
I’m not sure why you get Ellington unless you start him. Otherwise Bullock + Dot + Trier + RJ seems sufficient as a backup 2. Perhaps concerned about Bullock injury? Or does he and Taj add a steady vet presence with the backups?
I’d like to find time for at least Trier, Knox, and RJ- if not Dotson too- but Wayne Ellington really throws a wrench in that. Also can’t imagine playing Knox at the 4 w/ Portis in tow unless you’re playing both at the same time AKA the worst defense ever assembled. I have to think Trier the odd man out unless he beats Ellington in camp.
The Knicks have a very Metsian culture of blame, so Fizdale IMO needs to watch out next year. A couple fault lines: (1) Trying to win games versus properly developing players; (2) playing young guys the right amount. (They’re kind of related).
The entire premise of hiring Fizdale — his “reputation” with star players and the “culture” that would engender — has turned out to be pure Knicksy BS. He needs to actually demonstrate competence this year. It’s going to be another year of depressing Mills blame leaks and buck passing, I fear. It’s the default state of this organization; we only didn’t have it last year because it was Fizdale’s first year and they’d all deluded themselves that the new “culture” was going to pay off with elite free agents this summer.
To me Payton/Bullock/Randle/Mitch guaranteed to start barring any surprise leaps in performance from others. The other wing spot the only ‘?’.
The “try to win games” lineup would probably be Payton, Ellington, Bullock, Randle, Robinson. That is not gonna win very many games still, but that is probably the strongest lineup.
What worries me most about RJ is his free throws.
You can’t compete at the highest level as a poor free throw shooter.
Unless you’re a freak of nature named Wilt or Shaq or have an all time unique talent like Rodman.
As for the eye test i saw the same shitty performance that everyone saw but i still believe that he’s got game.
I saw a few slow motion-drives in semi-control, a satisfying handling for a 19yr old wing, a nice shooting style and an alley oop finish that says hes not jumpless.
He left A LOT to be imagined & desired by knicks fans but i’ll give him 82 more chances to prove himself this season.
His summer league performances so far look like a trailer for a cheap b-movie but QTarantino showed us that b-movies CAN RULE too !
@108
the 5th is Iggy, we need a playmaking wing out there. that offense could mesh.
defensively is harder to compile a starting 5;
payton, barrett, bullock, taj, mitch
Where was this news? That makes Dolans March interview where he told Michael Kay they would do well in free agency or words to that effect, nonsense. Mostly it means that all the bloviators who were going on and on and on about KD going to the Knicks knew nothing and neither did their “sources.”
Have to say if I’m a revisionist that I would probably have tried to do an AD deal. Certainly seems like more than anything that a bird in the hand is very valuable. We could have beat Lakers offer with the kitchen sink. Would have had enough room for another max guy. Then role players would have been willing to take less to play here. All this especially in light of our generally poor talent evaluation for building from scratch.
I’m holding out hope that the Lakers crash and burn and that AD still bolts next summer. All indications are that he plans to re-sign, though.
It’s something Bobby Portis said.
Thanasis 2years 3M with Bucks.
That’s what i call preparation for 2021.
Relatedly, Perry’s reputation when he was hired was a guy who wasn’t an analytics genius but had great relationships with players and agents, and could therefore recruit good free agents. After one offseason, he’s not looking so great. Oh-fer on the star free agents, and the only guys he signed were big overpays that any idiot could have offered.
Minnesota has announced Jarrett Culver won’t be playing summer league at all. That sounds odd.
@115 – Thanasity was only good enough to merit 2 games played for the Knicks. I guess he’s improved dramatically.
I think his speed is fine but he’s been reacting slowly a lot. He looks kinda freaked out and seems to want a lot more space when he moves (with and without the ball) than he’s likely to have. Just really uncomfortable. I imagine he’ll settle down some but.. All the flaws we knew about are glaringly obvious and the things he’s good at there’s no real hint of.
We don’t have to worry about RJ’s free throws bc his godfather is Steve Nash in case anyone hasn’t heard. Anyone remember when David Lee worked on his FTs all summer and jumped from mid-60s to low-80s in one year? It can be done. Unfortunately, at the draft RJ said he’s going to work on improving his difficult shot making ability. So much more important than FTs.
Thanasis was the “Most Spectacular Player” for the Greek League last year. He averaged about 8 PPG.
It seems to be awarded for the sikkest highlight reel. He was their Mario Hezonja.
I think Randle, Knox and RJ are the surest bets to start in that order (although if RJ continues to struggle through the summer and camp maybe they Ellington starts early on). I expect it to be pretty much an open competition between DSJ and Elfrid at the 1. The 5…I’m really not sure. I’m not totally convinced that Mitch is going to start. How sure are we that the powers that be know how good he is/can be? How many minutes can he handle, both phyiscally and in terms of not fouling out? With some well compensated vet bigs as alternate options I would not be at all surprised if Fiz goes a different direction.
The starting five on opening day will be Dennis Smith Jr, RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox, Julius Randle, and Mitchell Robinson unless Fiz wants another defender. In that case, Julius Randle and Allonzo Trier will lead the charge off the bench and one of Dame Dotson/Frank Ntilikina/Reggie Bullock (if he’s still a Knick) will start at the off guard spot with Barrett and Knox sliding to the 3 and 4 spots.
Looks like he ain’t visiting his godfather very frequently…
i think we will start with…
payton
ellington
bullock
randle
gibson
i’m pretty sure the reason the vets were signed were so that the kids could be brought along slowly and that they ‘earn’ playing time…. and then when we keep losing we’ll trickle in the kids…
i don’t actually mind it… i think basically all our young guys could benefit from this as long as they see some floor time… who starts doesn’t really matter….
Randle will almost definitely start because of his salary, and he definitely deserves it on the merits as one of our two certifiably good players, but his ideal role might be coming off the bench and punishing back up bigs. If Knox can actually shoot (Tacko Fall sized “if”), I like the idea of a DSJ-Bullock-RJ-Knox-Mitch starting lineup with Randle still getting starter’s minutes.
I don’t “like” it in terms of actually being good, but it does give us a good look at the guys we should actually care about and makes some sense basketball wise.
I find it amusing that we’re trying to figure out a starting lineup with this team. Right now I would say that there are 14 candidates to start and 14 candidates to ride the bench. I don’t know that there are any legit starters. Hell, I don’t know that there are any legit NBA players!
Mitch is a legit NBA player. Randle is a legit NBA player. Gibson and Ellington and Bullock and Payton are rotation players for a lot of the league. I suspect Trier will carve out a career for himself. It’s the other kids, and Portis, who are questionable.
Ha! That’s a perfect encapsulation of the Knicks’ offseason. “Well, they didn’t do anything so stupid that they got labeled losers by Zach Lowe. That’s progress!”
I fully endorse this with the added footnote that Portis’s skillset will keep him in the league a long time whether or not his play deserves it.
So if Lebron is starting at pg, that’s a lineup of LBJ/Green/Kuz/Davis/Cousins or JaVale.
Does that put them over the top?
Miami could be Westbrook/Winslow/Butler/J.Johnson/Bam… not too shabby. The Clips have Beverley/PG/Kawhi/??/Harrell, I guess?
But I also like teams like Indy and Utah. It’s been such a crazy offseason and suddenly there’s a lot of parity.
Allow me to say that signing mediocre players on the first 2 days and losing our cap flexibility till the end of the FA was not exactly smart…
I wouldn’t label our free agency as winners or losers but as “premature ejaculators”
Yeah, personally, I’d still call the Knicks “losers” for this offseason, but at least not as egregiously so as they have been in the past.
And hey, at least now they can’t trade for Russell Westbrook! That’s something!
Yeah ! Losers by design and Winners by chance ! I’ll take it !
There’s always the danger of hiring a smart GM and lose our hard-won “Losers Mentality-Identity” !
Memphis had Chris Wallace as their top decison-maker for, like, 15 years. They moved on from him, so there’s always a chance that someday the Knicks might hire a legitimately good decision-maker!
Sometimes I’m thinking that being the most valuable team in the nba, even while finishing last and after 46years of title drought and 20 of playoff starvation makes the owners believe that losing sells and Keep it losing on purpose.
On the other hand i don’t believe they’re so crafty to achieve it….
The Knicks are going to start hemorrhaging fans if they don’t turn it around soon. Young people already prefer Brooklyn to Manhattan, add not fielding crap teams and the Knicks’s franchise value will eventually stall out. Welcome to your New York Clipperbockers.
I don’t think team values have to do only with team success.
Looks like a territory with different kind of commercial mechanisms.
I mean, the Nets might briefly become sort of kind of as popular as the Knicks, but it’s not the most likely scenario and all the Knicks would have to do is to be sort of good and they’ll blow them away.
Look at Los Angeles when the Lakers were terrible and the Clippers were the #2 seed. L.A. was still all about the Lakers.
Yeah, I can’t see the Nets taking away too much support for the Knicks. They will probably pick up more bandwagoners/casual supporters, but for better or worse, most Knicks fans are fairly well in entrenched. “Ride or Die” is the colloquialism I believe ha ha
Anticipating Success looks like more profitable than success itself.
Building an international loyal fanbase looks like the perfect key to make big money in the Nba.
Cameron Payne trying to make a comeback, playing for the Mavericks in the Summer League, dropping 35 points. Scott Perry is likely kicking himself now that he didn’t lock Payne down for the Ellington Special.
The announcers and the Mavs are talking Payne up as still having the sheen of a prospect.
He’s older than Julius Randle.
I for one am looking forward to the 2019-20 cam payne
I mean the Knicks certainly weren’t winners this offseason, and I know what you call people who aren’t winners
@128 & 130 – Caught in the act of hyperbole! 🙁
But neither of you called anyone on the Knicks a “starter”. I agree with your assessment of talent, BTW.
The Nets with KD and Kyrie will have about as much success as they did with Paul Pierce and KG.
@148 I think the Nets have a great chance to win 55+ when Durant gets back in 2020-2021. They’ll have to overpay to keep Joe Harris (especially considering how much cap space we’re going to have in 2020), but Irving, LeVert, Harris, Durant, and Allen will be a load for everyone in the league.
We’re still ignoring that whole “Achilles rupture” thing huh
So now we’re looking at Monta Ellis? Jesus Mary & Joseph
FWIW, Jesus has a pretty silky jumper
I thought Monta Ellis retired like 6 years ago.
Jesus’ contributions definitely not fully captured by PER or DBPM but he’s never been the same since all that drama in Jerusalem when he split up the apostles. Plus you got to be careful with the next contract dude is like 2000 years old
Monta Ellis always seemed destined to be a Knick, so to get it done after he retired would be an epic comeback.
Not sure if you heard, but Monta Ellis have it all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7G9yS2-x5sA
JC straight up disappeared in almost every postseason and he plays with the ultimate hero complex, why would Perry even think of bringing him to the Mecca. 17 wins last year it would take a miracle to even get to 30. Thank you, next.
That Ellis/STAT workout has to be a favor for someone. Or a professional courtesy; 11 other teams attended the workout as well, and it was in Vegas where most teams’ staffers are anyway. It’s not a case where it’s just the Knicks alone.
That said, I think this is a non-story. Maybe STAT at best can be a vet minimum for a team looking for good older locker room guys. I see no team needing Ellis – his ego strikes me as the type who would try to prove he still got it.
I’ve wanted him on the team for a long time…..in fact, nearly every Knicks game I watch I call out his name several times.
Interesting Spellman-Jones trade. A little puzzled by it. Didn’t Jones have a bit of a breakout? Is it a money thing? I have always liked Spellman, might work out for the Warriors….
And yes, Monta Ellis has always seemed destined for MSG
Given Mills’ proclivity for shot-takers, Monta fits quite nicely. With DSJ, Monta, RJ, and Knox on the floor, the rule will be that whoever Mitch hands the defensive rebound to gets to dribble up the court and shoot.
I think it is cap relief for the Warriors and the fact Spellman can play a bit more PF given the Warriors have a glut of guys at the 5. I think you would find Jones would have been behind Looney and WCS on the depth chart, so may as well get some cap relief, so long as you don’t mind giving up a 2026 2nd round pick.
Spellman can, in theory, play a lot of stretch 4 or even stretch 5 when Draymond is on the floor. He’s an excellent young 3PT shooter (43.3% on 150 attempts in college, 34.4% on 128 attempts with 43.2% from the corner in the NBA) and is young as hell with 3 more years (two team options) for a total of $7.5M. He took over half his shots from 3 last year.
Jones was good last year in those limited minutes, but he’s utterly unplayable with Looney. I still have no idea who they plan on playing at wing. I talked a lot of shit on Klay being overrated, but now that Durant and Iguodala are gone, I just don’t know who’s going to guard the Paul Georges and Kawhis of the league. Spellman can pretend to be a corner-camping 3 on offense with no problem, but there is no way he can guard athletic wings. He matches up more like a center with that huge, bruising body.
Due to the Russell deal, the Warriors are hard-capped this year, so the $500,000 they save on Spellman vs. Jones (due to Jones being in the league one year longer) is sadly quite valuable to the Warriors. Add in Jones being behind two other players on the Warriors depth chart and the Hawks signing Jabari Parker to play the four (Spellman’s position) and the deal makes sense.
Happy Tuesday! I’m taking an anniversary trip to the East End with the missus and will have to miss the SL games. Here’s a cool video about our new second round stud….who is going to take the NBA by storm just like Mitch did.
Post hearty, mates!
And like shit, most of what you talked smelled. Klay could be the most underrated overrated player ever.
sign Monta on minimum deal? Frank unfortunately is a bust and I saw RJ’s first game and he didn’t look like a 3rd pick like Melo