Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, November 28, 2014

Would you have kept Rose and Taylor’s contracts?

One of the more irritating things this season reading John Hollinger has been his consistent (not constant, as he has only brought it up a few times, but he has done so consistently – the same talking points) harping on the Knicks paying off of Jalen Rose and Maurice Taylor, which kept the Knicks from using their salaries in a similar way to the way they used Antonio Davis and Anfernee Hardaway last year, to trade to teams trying to clear salary cap room (a move that was pretty clearly done by the owner as an attempt to keep Isiah Thomas from doing those trades, as they usually involve taking on more salary).

My problem with Hollinger’s criticism is that I just do not think it is reasonable to believe that, had the Knicks kept the salaries and done similar moves to last year, Hollinger wouldn’t have (probably rightfully) ripped the Knicks for doing what he is currently chastisizing them for not doing! A true lose-lose proposition.

First off, the idea that, had the Knicks kept Jalen Rose’s contract, they would have been able to pick up Pau Gasol (as Hollinger recently suggested) is pretty silly.

But there probably would be a couple of other players that the Knicks could have at least been in the running for had they kept Rose and/or Taylor’s contracts.

My question is, do you think the Knicks are better off letting the contracts expire, or do you think they should have kept the salaries to make trades?

I personally think it is better to just take the money loss (and the Balkman pick that they got with Jalen Rose) and let the money come off the cap. The Knicks won’t be under the cap any time soon, but I’d prefer to keep that possibility an actual possibility, which would not be the case if they kept trading salaries for longer-term contracts. And really, who really WAS available this year? Anyone who could really change the Knicks? If Gasol could have been gotten, I guess that would have worked, but I sincerely doubt the Knicks would have been able to get Gasol.

But I’m interested in hearing from the rest of you folks. What do you think the Knicks should have done with Rose and Taylor’s contracts?

69 comments on “Would you have kept Rose and Taylor’s contracts?

  1. jon abbey

    I think it would have been crazy to keep them, two disgruntled veterans who would be complaining about minutes all the time while not deserving any. we have enough problems getting guys like Balkman and Mardy Collins the minutes they need to develop as it is. hopefully Francis is the next to go, I assume he will be.

  2. Dan Panorama

    There’s not a single player I would have wanted to use those contracts on. If KG had gone on the market I might have cringed but it never happened so disaster averted – it’s definitely better to let them come off the cap.

  3. mase

    i think the team needs a major overhaul, theres only a few players worth keeping…I thought the reason They acquired Rose and Taylor was to trade the contracts I never understood why we bought them out in the first place. If they are a distraction send to ‘rehabilitate’.

  4. nykat

    Anything Isiah does is damned if you damned if you don’t. If Isiah brings in gives up anything to get KG they’ll still find a way to rip him.

  5. Ben Couch

    Having Rose and Taylor on the team, even “rehabilitating,” would have only served as a distraction. Look at the huge mess of the Steve Francis situation. It sets the tone for the franchise – Isiah’s focusing on the kids, ones who want to be Knicks. Outside of Marbury, every “core” player, from QRich to Crawford to Curry to Lee is 25 or younger.

  6. caleb

    Considering how little they saved on the buyouts, they were ridiculous… I think they paid Jalen something like $30 mil out of $32 million owed. When you’re paying almost $200 million in salary (with luxury tax), an extra million or two is nothing if it means a chance at making a deal.

    It’s true, they PROBABLY wouldn’t have found a trade partner, but what’s the worst-case scenario? Send the guy home all year, like the Bulls did with Tim Thomas.

    I think Isaiah did the buyouts to make the players and agents happy… thinking it will buy him favors down the road. I think that strategy will fail, but I hope I’m wrong.

    What do you guys think he should do with Steve Francis? I say keep him, make him sit in the corner, don’t reward him for screwing over his teammates. Plus, there’s a chance they’ll be able to use him in a trade in the next two years… most likely in 2009, towards the end.

    I realize it’s easier to take that route when it’s not spending MY money.

  7. caleb

    I don’t believe professional players are really affected by “distractions.” If the guy is really a pain in the *&*@!, they can send him to “rehab” in Honolulu.

  8. mase

    i agree with you Caleb…i think Isiah does those deals to make friends with people, like he does by overpaying for players.

    They should trade Francis for a shorter deal, cash and/or picks.

  9. jon abbey

    why would anyone in the league possibly want Steve Francis at his current contract, unless we took on a longer contract (like Kenyon Martin) in exchange? caleb is right, the only chance is during the 2009 season, or just let it expire after that.

  10. caleb

    we’re basically screwed on the cap through 2010, so I would take a player with a bad deal through then, if it brought us a good prospect or draft pick. (the other team would be saving a year’s worth of white elephant $).

  11. matt

    I don’t think there’s anything in Zeke’s past that speaks to him feeling the need to curry favor. The man is tough as nails and I just can’t see him doing things that way. This is the man that made the Bad Boys bad, remember.

  12. jon abbey

    “we?re basically screwed on the cap through 2010, so I would take a player with a bad deal through then, if it brought us a good prospect or draft pick. (the other team would be saving a year?s worth of white elephant $).”

    but Dolan probably wouldn’t sign off on this, and how many young players do we need? we’re getting another one in the first round this year, we already have Lee, Balkman, Frye, Collins, Morris and Nate. add in Curry (only 24), Marbury, Q and Crawford, and that’s 11 guys before you even get to Jeffries, James and Malik Rose.

    I think the next trade from us will be a blockbuster, where we package multiple players for one star who’s outstayed his welcome elsewhere. hopefully Isiah picks the right guy to pull the trigger on.

    (side note: looking up players birthdays right now, did you guys realize that Curry is less than six months older than Lee, Frye and Nate? I knew he was only 24, but I didn’t realize it was that close somehow).

  13. mase

    “I don?t think there?s anything in Zeke?s past that speaks to him feeling the need to curry favor. The man is tough as nails and I just can?t see him doing things that way. This is the man that made the Bad Boys bad, remember. ”

    Zeke is a notorious under-handed salesman…lots of GM’s (bird in particular) wont’ deal with him.

    we need as many young players as it takes to win!
    someone has to step in and help construct the team from the bottom up, like Colangelo has done again, this time with the Raptors.

  14. Dan Panorama

    Abbey I agree – the next step after stockpiling young talent has always been to pull off a blockbuster. I think Isiah may have even said something to this affect early on. Whether we get a pissed-off Zach Randolph or something in exchange for our future instead of a bonafide superstar is the question. And Isiah hasn’t built up even close to enough credibility yet on those kinds of trades for me to trust him. I just hope he makes the right call and doesn’t jump after the first guy who gets disgruntled and comes on the market.

  15. jon abbey

    so, outside of Garnett, who I think any of us would jump at, what do you think of the other possibilities this offseason? Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Jermaine O’Neal, Gasol, Rashard Lewis are probably all available to one degree or another.

    I’m not sure about rolling the dice for any of those guys, maybe Allen for Crawford and Frye might make sense both ways (I didn’t check salaries, but something along these lines), keep in mind that Jamal is from Seattle.

  16. mase

    im not into those free agents either…if your seattle would you give up allen for frye and crawford, i wouldn’t…gerald wallace may help

  17. caleb

    In general I agree with most of the other posters, in that the Knicks should be looking to trade quantity for quality. I just don’t think we’ve stockpiled enough to make it worthwhile. I’d leverage our advantage (an ability to pay mucho $$) to essentially buy extra draft picks (like with David Lee), or better yet – since the roster is almost full – move up to a higher draft slot. The Knicks can carry extra salary through 2010 without really impacting their options; we’re too far over the cap to even think about free agents.

    Gerald Wallace will get 8 or 9 million per, minimum.

    Trade-wise, I wouldn’t look at anyone older than 27 or 28. Ray Allen is a terrific player, but by the time we’re anywhere near a contender, Ray will be in Allan Houston-land.

    I’d trade Frye and Crawford for Rashard Lewis – a sweet shot to make teams pay for double-teaming Curry.

    I’d see if Indiana would take a sucker deal like Curry and Frye for Jermaine O’Neal. Who knows, maybe they’re desperate enough.. or maybe they’re so desperate to unload Tinsley that they would do the deal as long as he’s included, in exchange for Crawford, or Rose’s expiring deal.

    A semi-realistic guy to look at is Jarrett Jack – Portland has Sergio Rodriguez, so might be willing to trade Jack for Frye or Balkman.

  18. jon abbey

    yeah, Gerald Wallace would be great, I never understood why Sacramento left him unprotected in the first place, but almost definitely out of our price range at the mid-cap.

    Frye and Crawford for Lewis gives you Curry/Lee/Lewis/Marbury as starters, with Balkman or Collins at SG, plus Jeffries, Nate and Morris off the bench. we’d probably need to draft a more traditional SG then, Brandon Rush would seem to be an ideal fit. Nate sure can shoot, but he seems to give them up even faster.

    “I?d leverage our advantage (an ability to pay mucho $$) to essentially buy extra draft picks (like with David Lee)”

    Dolan has explicitly said he’s not doing this any more, tough to blame him there.

    what exactly is wrong with Tinsley? I know they’ve had a toxic atmosphere there since the last few years of Artest and they want to dump him, but he seems to get pretty good numbers, he hits big shots sometimes, anyone know the specifics here? is he just not consistent enough? too selfish? Artest/Stephen Jackson taint? I’ve always thought Jermaine disappeared in big games, but I’d be willing to think about a deal with him at least, I might actually insist on Tinsley too.

  19. caleb

    I don’t know why they’re so down on Tinsley. Everyone says they are, even Isaiah way back when, supposedly. Probably a combination of injuries and bar fights. I always sorta liked his game but he does seem to have a knack for disappointing people.

    re: your lineup, another option is to find a younger, quicker point guard (or JT :)) and move Steph to SG. He’d look a lot better on D – he actually looks ok on Kobe, but the quick guys like Tony Parker or Raymond felton just murder him.

    I didn’t realize Dolan had said that. He’s a moron. Does he realize what the team would look like without the extra draft picks Isaiah bought? What he needs to do is ban use of the mid-level exception.

  20. dave crockett

    Brian,

    my answer is simply that the Knicks need to be out of the business of trading bad contracts. It is generally bad fiscal and personnel practice. In fact Dolan’s decision to take that option away from Isiah–effectively forcing Thomas to play to his strengths in the draft and the bargain FA bin–may be the single best thing he’s done during Thomas’ tenure.

    Jon,

    don’t you think that Balkman projects to basically be Wallace?

  21. jon abbey

    “I didn?t realize Dolan had said that. He?s a moron. Does he realize what the team would look like without the extra draft picks Isaiah bought?”

    right, he’s not criticizing the past usage so much as drawing the line that it stops now (actually at the start of this season). you realize we’re at close to triple the salary cap, right, and that I think the franchise lost something like $100 million last year? there’s not much I’ll agree with Bozo Dolan about, but drawing the line where he did seems pretty reasonable, and I’m sure if it was Garnett or LeBron or someone that good that he’d think about it. but how would you feel about
    signing the checks for something like $50 million (including luxury tax) just this season for Francis and Jalen Rose?

    ” What he needs to do is ban use of the mid-level exception.”

    or at least not let him use it long-term, 2-3 seasons would be fine. I think after James and Jeffries, using it again this offseason might be a tough sell to Dolan, but we’ll see.

    “don?t you think that Balkman projects to basically be Wallace?”

    hmm, interesting. Balkman is only 2 years younger, 22/24. Wallace is more of a offensive force in the halfcourt than I think Balkman can develop into for a while, he had one game against us last season where he hit 5 threes. Balkman is such an exceptional athlete that the sky’s the limit for him, but he’s shown zero signs of any kind of shooting touch so far.

  22. jon abbey

    wow, Jermaine has a huge contract and Tinsley is signed through 2010-2011, when he’ll be 32, no wonder he’s been impossible to move.

    Curry, Frye, Nate and Francis for Jermaine and Tinsley could be interesting. that would give us Jermaine/Lee/Q/Marbury/Tinsley, with Crawford as the gunning sixth man, Balkman, Collins, Morris, Jeffries, James plus the Bulls’ first round pick. Marbury and Tinsley together could be a problem, though. I don’t think I’d do that one, honestly.

  23. Dan Panorama

    I will say this about Balkman’s shooting – he may make me cringe every time he shoots a three or a perimeter shot but the fact that he takes them shows that he must be working on them and wants to incorporate it into his game. That I recognize and really like. If he develops any kind of reliable perimeter shot he could be at least a solid starting-caliber player.

  24. Danny

    As if it matters. We are still 11 games under .500 and not making the playoffs again with no lottery pick.

  25. Matthew

    I wanted to agree with you here Brian, but I just couldn’t. Are you forgetting that the Knicks traded Antonio Davis for Rose? Davis had an expiring contract. How can this trade possibly be painted in a positive light? The only way that is a good deal is if they acquire talent for Rose, which they didn’t do! Thomas threw money away on that deal.

  26. Caleb

    Correction, the trade was Antonio Davis for Malik Rose and David Lee (!)

    Was Mardy Collins part of that, too? Or was that pick part of the Mo Taylor deal?

    From Dolan’s perspective – sure, at some point, he has a budget. But from a fan’s prespective, I don’t see how anyone can knock these trades. They get us extra draft picks, and don’t cost us anything as far as cap room; we’re infinitely over, either way. That will be true through 2010, unless something drastic happens (like not re-signing Lee, Frye, Robinson, Balkman or any other draft picks)

    The deals that have screwed up our cap situation are:

    1. The Scott Layden era (which would have ended this year, no? When Allan Houston’s deal ran out?)

    2. Marbury (though many people thought it a good gamble at the time)

    3. Curry (see #2)

    4. Free-agent losers with the initials J.J.

    5. Q-Rich

    While it sucked to lose Trevor Ariza, even the Steve Francis deal didn’t hurt the cap situation. No fan should care if the payroll is $60 million or $120 million – that’s Dolan’s business.

  27. Pao

    If we didnt give up Ariza we wouldn’t have needed to sign Jeffries and we could’ve gotten a better player with that mid-level exception.

  28. Caleb

    I totally agree.

    My only point is that Dolan is foolish to give up one of our only competitive advantages – the ability to pay big money to bring in more young talent.

    The Francis/Ariza deal is a different animal. We brought in a terrible contract but no potential-young guy or draft pick with it. Worse, we GAVE UP a guy with long-term potential.

    It might have been an ok trade if we had insisted on getting back, say, Jameer Nelson or the Magic’s 2008 1st rounder. If we had gotten that, no one would care what an albatross Steve Francis is.

  29. Sunil

    good point, pao.

    I hadn’t thought of it like that.
    personally, i dont think jared jeffries salay is all that bad. he can back up both forward spots and really is a glue guy.

    but ariza, would have essentially made jj obsolete and would have been cheaper.

    but i can’t necessarily pin that on thomas, considering all the rumors that it was a brown influences trade.

  30. Sunil

    where do you guys realistically see the bulls (via nix) picking this year ?

    and who do you realistcally see the nix picking up this year (via bulls)

  31. Caleb

    Obviously it depends who declares for the draft – but it looks as though the big names are in. Assuming they are… the top guys available around #11 might be Ty Lawson, Acie Law or Roy Hibbert – I keep reading that the Bulls like Hibbert.

    At #22 or 23, it’s more of a crapshoot. A point guard like Lawson might slide that far (probably wishful thinking)… we could also fantasize about Thaddeus Young, who would be a steal that late.

    I’d like to see the Knicks try and move up. We’ve got enough assets that it’s conceivable that we could wheel and deal to a higher pick…

    Another option is trading down, in exchange for a future pick(s). In that case, I’d think about a PG like Darren Collison or a shot-blocker like Sean Williams, the BC dope fiend (although with Morris on board, that seems unlikely)

    I’ve seen people lobby for Brandon Rush, he’d be an upgrade as a pure shooter but for some reason doesn’t seem special to me. We’re already packed with guards and it seems that Rush-type players aren’t too hard to find…

  32. Nick

    On Brandon Rush did I mishear things during the tournament or is he a defensive player as well?

  33. Caleb

    From what I’ve seen of Rush, he’s a solid defender but not a Corey Brewer-esque stopper. He’s not mega-quick or long.

    Same thing with Rush’s offense – he seems like a good, not great shooter, decent ballhandler, etc.

    Of course I’ve only seen him in 2 or 3 full ballgames. Any college fans out there with a better-informed opinion?

    p.s. The guy on Kansas who’s really fun to watch (in the little bit I saw, at least) is Julian Wright.

  34. Sunil

    wow.. i just looked up sean williams ( i had never heard of him before)
    he seems like everything we could hope for in a mid round pick. kind of a coke fiend tyson chandler.

    i really hope we could get him. and of course help him resist temptation.

  35. nesta

    “I will say this about Balkman?s shooting – he may make me cringe every time he shoots a three or a perimeter shot but the fact that he takes them shows that he must be working on them and wants to incorporate it into his game. That I recognize and really like.”

    Wow….truly demented optimism there.

    I also love how Jerome James chucks the ball up every time, because I’m sure he works hard on his game.

    I cringe when I see Eddy Curry watch a penetrator zip right by him again, but the fact that he’s watching the penetrator and not some girl in the stands shows he must be working on cutting off the lane one day.

    I cringe when Isiah Thomas signs another free agent bum, but the fact that his pen is working shows me that he’s really working hard on signing players, and eventually will pull a horseshoe out of his ass.

  36. T-Mart

    “Wow?.truly demented optimism there.”

    “(Followed by a collection of ridiculous analogies)”

    Have you ever picked up a ball before? Confidence is one of the most important components of shooting a basketball. If you don’t believe that, then look no further then Channing Frye this season as disaster-exhibit A of what happens to shooting performance when a player has no confidence.
    Balkman clearly does not have a polished shooting motion yet. But he will with practice. What he does have though, is confidence to shoot the rock. You have to have both. Confidence to shoot is a virtue more derived from inherent ability then learned ability.

    So what Dan is saying is that Balkman is missing a component to shooting he can learn (motion), and already has the component which is substantially more difficult to learn(confidence), making this a very promising situation with Balkman.

    Did you really not understand this concept????

  37. Owen

    I dont care if Balkman ever makes a jump shot in his career. He is highly effective without one.

    Love his line so far, 10 points, 11 rebounds, 2 steals, one turnover in the first half. He was only 4-8 from the field, but that was largely because he had to force two shots as the clock wound down.

    Great player.

  38. Dan Panorama

    “Wow?.truly demented optimism there.”

    Yeah, I know it’s the rosier side of things, but there’s a difference of course – Jerome James is a million years old and on the downhill. Balkman is a young raw prospect and different rules apply. Curry is no different – there are times when he screws up when he gets the ball and quickly turns it over but I’m glad this season overall that he’s demanding the ball and getting better in the post in general. These guys aren’t supposed to be perfect yet. Similarly with David Lee, I am happy to tolerate a few clunkers if he wants to start incorporating a 15 footer into his game. But if, say, Malik Rose decides he can shoot threes all of a sudden Isiah should bench him because he has an established role.

  39. What a jopke

    looks like another loss for the knicks
    god the knicks are effing horrible..do they realize you have to win games to actually make the mother fucking playoffs?

    this team is a bunch of rejects. I can’t take it anymore..I just want to see them one time on national television in the goddamn playoffs. They are so shitty no broadcast in their right mind would want to televise this abomination of a team.

    God seriously what a jopke.

  40. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, they are pretty tough to watch right now with this lineup.

    Except Balkman – he is awesome.

    But yeah, terrible terrible loss.

  41. nesta

    “So what Dan is saying is that Balkman is missing a component to shooting he can learn (motion), and already has the component which is substantially more difficult to learn(confidence), making this a very promising situation with Balkman.”

    You’ve gotta be fucking kidding me.

    He’s gotten to this level without knowing how to shoot _at all_, and he’s suddenly gonna learn now, in the NBA?

    It could happen, but it sounds rather unlikely.

    “Did you really not understand this concept????”

    No, I don’t understand this concept. I don’t understand the armchair psychiatric analysis that assumes he has tons of confidence because he throws up a few ridiculous 3-pointers. I don’t understand why you would think most players who manage to reach the NBA _don’t_ have confidence. I don’t understand the thinking that confidence is a better predictor of shooting ability than actual shooting ability. I don’t understand how you “know” Channing Frye has lost confidence, or why it was so easy for him to lose, if it’s an inherent skill and so difficult to gain.

    I mean, I’ve even played ball, so I must really be dense not to comprehend such insights.

    And returning to my ridiculous analogies: When Jerome James throws up a horrible shot every time he touches the ball, do you also assume he has great confidence and must be working hard on his game? And does this make you excited about his future?

  42. Owen

    Hate to say it, but Mardy Collins doesnt look like an NBA player. Quick hands, but not much else. His performance tonight was god awful.

    Eddy Curry was bad tonight. I swear it all went downhill when he came in after Marbury went on his run.

    Update on the Turnover Title, Howard has it locked down, but with seven turnovers Curry has now closed within five of Nash for second place. He is within five and has a game in hand, and with the way Curry has picked up his pace of late, and the way Phoenix has been resting Nash, I think he has a pretty good chance at second place.

  43. T-Mart

    “He?s gotten to this level without knowing how to shoot _at all_, and he?s suddenly gonna learn now, in the NBA? It could happen, but it sounds rather unlikely.”

    Now I’m wondering if you have ever watched a draft broadcast in your life. Every other player that gets drafted, especially in this era, one of the first comments is, if this kid developed a good 15-footer, he is going to dominate. Do you think Dick Vitale is saying this because it’s good for his health? He’s saying it because it is a realistic possibility which has come to fruition with uncountable players in the NBA. Have you seen the difference between Amare Stoudemire’s jumpshot now in his third year, compared to when he entered the league? That’s just one example. Think about how many player’s have entered the league not being able to stick a trey, and end up shooting quite well from beyond the arc later on. Michael Joran ring a bell? In the two years he shot the most 3’s, 95-96 and 96-97, he shot .374 and .427. In his first 4 years in the league he shot .173, .167, .182, and .132.
    So, Balkman developing his shot is not this unlikely event you seem fixated on.

    “I don?t understand the armchair psychiatric analysis that assumes he has tons of confidence because he throws up a few ridiculous 3-pointers.”

    This is one of the statements you were making before which makes me believe you have never picked up a basketball in your life or played on any organized level, or even some pick-up games for that matter.
    When you are out their playing with people it becomes quickly obvious who has confidence playing and who does not, in all facets of the game. Especially when it comes to jumper’s, you can just tell when someone is confident. It takes confidence to throw up 3-pointers like he has this season, he’s a rookie who has gotten sparse playing time this season, he’s not taking those shots because he thinks he is going to miss them, he’s taking them because he believe hes going to make them, which is derived from confidence.

    Which brings me to your next well-thought-out point”

    “I don?t understand how you ?know? Channing Frye has lost confidence, or why it was so easy for him to lose, if it?s an inherent skill and so difficult to gain.”

    Have you seen how many times Channing Frye has passed the ball away when he has had wide-open looks this season, when in the same situation last season he would have just shot it? That is because he is afraid to shoot it. And he is afraid to shoot it because he has no confidence and thinks he will miss the shot and let everyone else down. Isn’t this obvious to you? It doesn’t take even an “arm-chair psychologist” to figure this out. I think even Owen could figure this one out without WOW.

    “I don?t understand why you would think most players who manage to reach the NBA _don?t_ have confidence.”

    I never said this anywhere.

    “I don?t understand the thinking that confidence is a better predictor of shooting ability than actual shooting ability.”

    I never said it was a better predictor of shooting ability, I said it was the 2-part component that is more difficult to learn. I emphasized both components, and I especially emphasized the necessity to have both of them to succeed. Stop putting words in my mouth.

    “When Jerome James throws up a horrible shot every time he touches the ball, do you also assume he has great confidence and must be working hard on his game? And does this make you excited about his future?”

    Jerome James has no future. Hes getting old. If he was 21 taking 10-footers I would be encouraged, but in this stage of his career it is clear that there is no long-term return on investment available in his taking shots that make us cringe. Only short-term frustration because of his old age and knowing he will never develop the component of his shot because it’s too late and hes had no work ethic his entire career.

  44. xduckshoex

    “Michael Joran ring a bell? In the two years he shot the most 3?s, 95-96 and 96-97, he shot .374 and .427. In his first 4 years in the league he shot .173, .167, .182, and .132.”

    That is completely different. Jordan was already a good shooter, it was just a matter of extending his range. He shot 45% on threes in college, so obviously he already had SOME range.

  45. Marc R

    Er, the NCAA didn’t institute the 3 point shot until 1986, which was 2 years after Michael Jordan left North Carolina.

    Fictional stats are SO much fun.

  46. Dan Panorama

    Jordan was NOT considered a good shooter – his critics said he could just dunk and use his athleticism and strength in the post to score points. Plenty of other players have had similar trajectories. Wade has gotten the Jordan comparison a lot (he doesn’t have threes yet either but he probably will one day soon), since he scores mostly on drives.

  47. T-Mart

    “Plenty of other players have had similar trajectories.”

    This is exactly what Im saying about Balkman. Dude, im arguing in favor of the point that you made earlier????? Why are you attempting to disagree with yourself?

    “That is completely different. Jordan was already a good shooter, it was just a matter of extending his range. He shot 45% on threes in college, so obviously he already had SOME range.”

    Look, the proof is in the pudding. He went from a ~.150 shooter to ~.375-.425 from 3-point land. We’re talking about players improving their jump-shot and the fact that it is extremely plausible that Balkman will follow suit, and ofcourse his confidence level being a huge plus.

  48. RKade32

    Did someone on this blog just compare Jordan’s ability to improve to Renaldo Balkman’s? Guys, seriously, you’ve gone too far. Where do you get this crap?

  49. T-Mart

    “Did someone on this blog just compare Jordan?s ability to improve to Renaldo Balkman?s? Guys, seriously, you?ve gone too far. Where do you get this crap?”

    Why don’t you try reading the whole chain, you obviously didn’t read any of it.

  50. Larry A

    Lee will develop a jump shot. No doubt. His improvement in free throw shooting from last year to this year shows he knows how to get in a gym all summer with a shooting coach until he gets it right.

    The jury is out on Balkman. I won’t hold my breath on seeing the Air-Balkman shoe line out anytime soon. As for his jumpers now, I think he takes them because he has no choice because there are 5 defenders under the basket with Curry rather then out of great confidence in his shot. Personally, I think that if he wants to get better, he will. He obviously won’t be Jordan but there is no reason he can’t hit a set corner three as well as Bruce Bowen. I worry however that he sees himself as such a defense only guy and that he won’t put in the work to improve his outside game. Time will tell.

  51. xduckshoex

    “Er, the NCAA didn?t institute the 3 point shot until 1986, which was 2 years after Michael Jordan left North Carolina.

    Fictional stats are SO much fun. ”

    Ignorant smart ass remarks are SO much fun.

    The NCAA adopted the rule as a collective that year because the individual conferences already had it in place but at varying distances; the NCAA just standardized it.

  52. xduckshoex

    “Look, the proof is in the pudding. He went from a ~.150 shooter to ~.375-.425 from 3-point land. We?re talking about players improving their jump-shot and the fact that it is extremely plausible that Balkman will follow suit, and ofcourse his confidence level being a huge plus. ”

    You are talking about improving something he was already good at; shooting with range. Jordan was already solid shooting up to 20 feet out, he just added a few more inches onto that range. That is not even remotely similar to starting from scratch, which is essentially what Balkman would be doing. A valid comparison would be a player who had a below average shot as a rookie and developed into a solid shooter.

    It is not uncommon for a player to improve on a skill he already has after reaching the NBA. It is very uncommon for a player to acquire new skills after reaching the NBA.

  53. T-Mart

    Sorry pal, Balkman is shooting .185 from 3-point range this season. Compared to Jordan at .173, .167, .182, and .132 IN HIS FIRST 4 SEASONS.

    What Dan said before was exactly on the money about Jordan “Jordan was NOT considered a good shooter – his critics said he could just dunk and use his athleticism and strength in the post to score points”.

    So are you really going to tell me that Jordan had some kind of leg-up on shooting 3’s. Balkman’s %, is higher then any of Jordan’s first 4 seasons. Jordan was starting from scratch just like Balkman is. If you’re going to say anything contrary based on this data, quite frankly you’re taking an undefendable position.

  54. Caleb

    While it’s true that Jordan made amazing improbements – like so many other amazing things he did – it’s quite a leap to say that anyone could make similar improvements, as long as they work hard.

    That said… shooting does seem to be a skill that players can improve (check out David Lee’s FTs)…. Unlike rebounding #s, which hold steady or decline in nearly all cases. (sorry, Eddie)

  55. xduckshoex

    Jordan could shoot. He hit 45% of his threes(34 of 76) for UNC in the 1982-83 season. There was not a NCAA-wide standard, those threes ranged anywhere from 19-22 feet. It doesn’t matter what his critics said, he could shoot the ball. It was just a matter of extending his range a foot or so and getting comfortable with those shots which is really not all that difficult. So yes, Jordan DID have a leg up on Balkman.

    Balkman doesn’t have range to extend. He’s a 56% free throw shooter. His eFG% on his jumpers is a miserable 19%. He’s just a bad shooter, period. He’s more Ben Wallace and Jerome Williams than Michael Jordan, and that is not likely to change.

  56. Sly Williams

    “There was not a NCAA-wide standard, those threes ranged anywhere from 19-22 feet.”
    I found a reference that the ACC adopted a 17’9” 3-pt line for this 1 season (Seattle Times).

    When Balkman was drafted there were comparisons to Rodman, and their 1st seasons are numerically very similar (even in min/G), and Balkman is 3 years younger as a rookie. Rodman of course showed immense improvement even after this late start, even becoming an acceptable 3-pt shooter for a time.

  57. nesta

    “Every other player that gets drafted, especially in this era, one of the first comments is, if this kid developed a good 15-footer, he is going to dominate. Do you think Dick Vitale is saying this because it?s good for his health?”

    I certainly don’t listen to anything Vitale says.

    There is a difference between improving, which I expect all young players to do, and completely developing a skill for which a player shows no aptitude.

    ——————–
    “When you are out their playing with people it becomes quickly obvious who has confidence playing and who does not, in all facets of the game. Especially when it comes to jumper?s, you can just tell when someone is confident.”

    I would love to play against players like this, brimming with confidence and throwing up garbage. Meanwhile I’ll pick the skilled players for my team, and win every time.

    ————————–
    “Have you seen how many times Channing Frye has passed the ball away when he has had wide-open looks this season, when in the same situation last season he would have just shot it? That is because he is afraid to shoot it. And he is afraid to shoot it because he has no confidence and thinks he will miss the shot and let everyone else down.”

    Could be. Could also be unsure of his role in the offense, rarely playing the post, now focused on Fat Eddy, still trying to learn how best to complement everyone else.

    I’d still rather see Frye with the ball 20 feet from the hoop than Balkman.

    ————————
    “Jordan was starting from scratch just like Balkman is.”

    Congratulations on this brilliant comment.

    It’s already been shown Jordan was making the shorter college threes. Balkman barely shot the three in college, and shot them poorly. Jordan could make free throws, Balkman can’t even do that. Jordan had a good stroke, Balkman does not. “Starting from scratch”? Now I wonder who’s never played hoops before. Balkman will likely improve. There is NO evidence he will EVER become a good three-point shooter.

  58. xduckshoex

    “I found a reference that the ACC adopted a 17?9?? 3-pt line for this 1 season (Seattle Times). ”

    Thanks for the info. Is there a link to the article, or is it an archived article that one would have to pay for?

    Other conferences had three point lines back as far as 22′. I know the Southern Conference did for sure. So it’s safe to say that Jordan was comfortable shooting mid range jumpers before he ever got to the NBA.

  59. T-Mart

    Nesta, Im not even going to waste my time responding to you if you’re going to take every cherry-picked short line out of context from my response to you.

  60. Marc R

    “?Er, the NCAA didn?t institute the 3 point shot until 1986, which was 2 years after Michael Jordan left North Carolina.

    Fictional stats are SO much fun. ?

    Ignorant smart ass remarks are SO much fun.

    The NCAA adopted the rule as a collective that year because the individual conferences already had it in place but at varying distances; the NCAA just standardized it.”

    Point taken. It would have been nice though if you, in the interest of full disclosure, pointed out that Jordan’s 3 point stats (45%) were for one year and had a sample size of just over 70 shots. And the line was only 19 feet away, barely more than a free throw. Not very revealing.

  61. xduckshoex

    A college three is an NBA mid-range jumper, all I was using the college threes to show is that Jordan had a mid-range game before he even got to the pros. Developing a three point shot was just a matter of extending that range. Balkman doesn’t even had a mid-range game. I wouldn’t trust him shooting from outside 10 feet.

    And Sly, thanks for the link.

  62. TC

    Wow, this has been an entertaining thread. Folks, I’m not a Knick fan (per se, though I’m a huge fan of some of your players), but following this thread, it seems that Dan Panorama suggested that Balkman had the potential to develop a jumper a la Wallace because they are similarly athletic. And then nesta took that and suggested by that logic any player who shoots a lot can be expected to improve. I think the difference between Wallace and Balkman is that we’d heard that Wallace had an all-round game (at least out here West I had) while I think from the get-go, Balkman wasn’t lauded for his offensive game. Still, given his engine and athletic ability, it’s possible…..but seriously guys, though I don’t know ya, seems you’re making a mountain out of a molehill..

  63. Sly Williams

    “seems you?re making a mountain out of a molehill”
    We are Knick fans. We haven’t seen anything but molehills in 6 years, since Larry Johnson was still playing. Don’t ruin our fantasy! Curry and Marbury are the greatest players ever, having their best season. If Balkman becomes Jordan, and we get a few lucky breaks, we could win 40 next season. No really. Don’t give up now, when we are so close to becoming average! How were we to know that Isiah would continue to be terrible, and this over aged, injury-prone team would continue to be old and injury-prone? So close, I tell you, so close.

  64. al

    The Knicks are is a desperate need of a new owner who is willing to support this team with a real business savvy approach. The Knicks are the laughing stock of the sport world because they have an owner who does not understand business. I want to start the Fire Dolan! Fire Dolan! chant in every game. We need to run him out of MSG and NYC; he must be a Celtic’s or Sixer’s secret spy. Isiah is just the village idiot who has to do Dolan’s dirty work.

    On the basketball side, Curry is not a true center and has a lot to be desire. His progress this year is not impressive a all; how many turnover can he make (he should be called butterfingers Curry). Balkman is playing his rookie year and has a high adrenaline but lets see next year and his sophomore jitters. The brightest spot in the Knicks is Lee who is a throwback player and does not fit in a selfish mode of the Knicks. It is sad that Knicks fans have to suffer through this and the worst is that there is no end in site (as long as Dolan is incharged).

    Fire Dolan! Fire Dolan! and run him out of town….

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