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Friday, October 31, 2014

Who Would You Trade for Ron Artest?

With all the rumors circulating around Ron Artest possibly being traded to the Knicks, the gang here at KnickerBlogger decided to try to figure out who we would trade for Artest if we were, in fact, forced to do so.

Pick out which offer you think is the best (on the grounds of being good for the Knicks and still being acceptable for the Kings)! Or share your own suggestion (Here is ESPN’s handy dandy Trade Machine, for you to see if your trade fits in with the NBA’s various salary cap rules)!!

{democracy:14}

Brian Cronin – I would be willing to part with two different options:

1. Quentin Richardson – If Artest came to the Knicks, Richardson would be screwed anyways, as Artest plays the exact same position as Richardson (Small Forward who can play Shooting Guard), and since I think Artest is a better player than Richardson, I would be willing to swap the two players.

As for the Kings, Richardson is not an awful return on Artest. I mean, at this exact point in their careers, is Richardson much worse than Peja? And that’s all Sacramento gave up for Artest.

2. Jamal Crawford – This is a bit of a trickier trade, because, as I said above, Artest and Richardson play the same position (2/3), so having them both on the same team, with Nate and Balkman and Jeffries and Chandler (heck, even with a little Lee mixed in at the 3) – it would get crowded quickly.

However, if there is a good, marketable player on the Knicks who they could afford to lose without really hurting the team that much – it’s Jamal Crawford. So I’d be willing to risk it.

From the Kings’ perspective, Crawford is an exciting player, and would allow them to trade off Bibby for nothing and go forth with a Crawford/Martin back court for the next few years. While Crawford isn’t that great, he’s definitely a marketable player (see Crawford’s 52 against Miami), so I think that, while this would not be as good of a trade TALENT-wise for the Kings, it might actually be a better one from a PR standpoint.

KnickerBlogger: I chose the null option partially because Cronin took one of the few deals that I would take. I would do Crawford for Artest primarily because I’m not a big fan of Crawford’s out of control low percentage shooting. In any case I’ll play devil’s advocate on not trading for Artest, not that it’s far from what I actually think. It’s not so much that I wouldn’t want Ron Artest the player. For once Isiah would be getting a player that wouldn’t be a liability on the defensive end. And the Knicks could sure use help on the defensive end.

The problem is Ron Artest the person. I don’t think I need to rehash Artest’s history, and I don’t think it’s a stretch to say he’s a risk to himself and his team. It’s not inconceivable that Artest does something crazy enough to create a media circus and make 2008 a repulsive season for the fans. Knick fans have suffered through a brutal decade so far, and Artest could figuratively (or literally) give New Yorkers a black eye.

Not only could Artest’s actions ruin the season, but he could hurt the development of New York’s youngsters. David Lee and Renaldo Balkman have yet to hit their prime while showing flashes of brilliance. Meanwhile Nate Robinson, Mardy Collins, and Randolph Morris are becoming useful role players. Bringing a player like Artest aboard could cut into the playing time and progress of these promising players.

If the Knicks did trade for Artest, I would sure hope they don’t pay much (Crawford, Jeffries, Rose, etc.). Although he’s a talented defender, I would hate for the Knicks to trade useful prospects away only to have Artest self destruct.

138 comments on “Who Would You Trade for Ron Artest?

  1. mason

    Isiah should not include useful prospects especially since Artest can opt-out after next season.

    I’m not sure I agree that he is a better player than Q because of all the negatives but i would trade him for Jamal too.

  2. Mike

    Qrich is a no brainer. We would be dumping a bad contract and getting back a better player but why would the Kings do it?

  3. thefatkid

    I would not trade for Ron Artest. Aside from some ridiculous swap like Malik Rose & Nichols for Artest, I view any trade as a losing proposition. Artest is a neurotic malcontent who doesn’t fit into the team concept very well.

    Richardson for Artest is a reasonable swap, but is the marginal improvement really worthwhile? Richardson isn’t significantly worse as a player and he has no ridiculous history of mental problems.

    Regarding Crawford, I don’t view his shooting percentages as the kiss of death that others seem to. Crawford is a very important piece for the Knicks with his ability to score, pass, and run an offense. He’s become more important with the addition of Randolph, since he is the only Knick capable of consistent entry passes.

    Given that the Knicks are a young team that is only getting younger and continuing to improve, I don’t see the need for acquiring Artest. This team isn’t on the verge of a championship and Artest is hardly the missing link to make a championship run possible. The Knicks need to integrate Randolph and worry about utilizing the current roster before importing a potential time bomb.

  4. DS

    The Knicks would be crazy to not take Artest for some combination of Crawford, JJ, or Nate. He’s arguably better than anyone on the team. His shaky character presents a mild risk to the potential payoff:

    The starting group of Steph, Q, Artest, Randolph, Curry would be significantly stronger on D, and the boards than the group they couldn’t currently put on the floor.
    Isiah could still insert Lee (@ the 3, 4, 5) and Balkman (@ at the 2, 3, 4) into the lineup for plenty of mins/game.
    JJ and Crawford have less than favorable contracts and create gluts at certain positions.
    Nate is a solid backup but replaceable.

    I have to imagine Sacto would demand Q if not Lee or Renaldo.

  5. Michael Zannettis

    Basically Jeffries and Robinson was a trade I think only a GM as bad as Thomas would take, but it’s at least worth it to offer.

    Neither one could help the Knicks as much as Artest could, though, to be fair, as far as head cases go, Nate is a far more entertaining one.

    Artest’s antics got old fast. But a 5’9″ rookie celebrating an alley oop slam dunk in garbage time with his team down twenty (which I saw in person), will never stop being absolutely ridiculous.

  6. J

    i agree with thefatkid for the most part. ronron is not worth the risk. he is not a major upgrade from Q; Richardson has shown leadership on and off the court, and has a commendable work ethic. if his back is healed up i don’t see artest as being that much more effective anyway. i think isiah will end up surprising everyone (again) and go a completely different route

  7. marty

    What risk is there exactly… not making the playoffs, again? Ron Artest is the best defensive player I’ve ever seen, and I live near Sac.

  8. TwoNuse

    I would not trade for Artest, especially not for Richardson. At this point in his career, Richardson is a glue guy; a guy who doesn’t need to have the ball in his hands all the time. He is the only starter that fits this description. Artest may be a good defender, but he needs the ball as much as Curry and Marbury and Randolph and Crawford. Put those five players on the floor at the same time and the offrensive flow would be like cold molasses.

    Besides, every minute would get on the court is a minute Balkman wouldn’t.

  9. Frank

    J and thefatkid are nuts in my opinion. If you can get someone of Artest’s quality for average players (which certainly Jefferies and Nate are– Jamal is an above average player) you must do it. I am a believer in Q so would not want to give him up necessarily. Between Q, Marbury, and Artest (not to mention Balkman and Collins coming off the bench), we would have SO much of a better perimeter D than we do now. A lineup of Curry, Randolph, Artest, Q, and Marbury with Lee, Balkman, etc. coming off the bench is probably good enough to get into the 2nd round at least in my opinion. And once we’re in the 2nd round, who knows?

    That being said– I’d still rather just wait until next year and sign him for the midlevel exception. Why give up assets when you don’t have to? We’re not winning the championship next year anyway with or without Artest.

    Regarding his head– my feeling is that Artest is a nut case but that his love for the Knicks is so strong that he’ll hold it together. There may be some tough moments but I think he’ll be like Stephon and over time sacrifice for the good of his favorite childhood team. This is our advantage over so many other teams– a lot of great players grew up diehard Knick fans and would be thrilled to put on the uniform (ie. Odom, Brand) if they ever got a feasible chance. We should use this hometown love to our advantage.

  10. J

    risks include a 7 game suspension, less playing time at the SF position, and shipping off developing players. also it won’t solve our roster problem; a 3 for 1 involving artest is overpaying.

  11. nbrans

    Great ideas, guys! Over at a Kings blog we’re going to have a poll about whether the Kings should trade Kenny Thomas, Shareef Abdur-Rahim or Brad Miller for a package of David Lee, Renaldo Balkman, and five first round picks.

  12. Caleb

    nbans, I hope you don’t think any team is trading a usable player for Ron-Ron. Your dreams will be crushed!

  13. nbrans

    Caleb-

    I’d rather let Artest’s contract expire and let him walk than take on the Knicks’ crap players with neverending contracts.

  14. Z

    “my feeling is that Artest is a nut case but that his love for the Knicks is so strong that he?ll hold it together.”

    Wow Frank. These are some very rosy glasses you have on. O.J. “loved” his wife. That turned out really well…

  15. Frank

    “Wow Frank. These are some very rosy glasses you have on.”

    Is that why everything’s pink?

    no seriously, I think he’ll be fine. Analogy might be Rasheed Wallace who was a nutcase in Portland but has been pretty much under control in Detroit. Or again, I’ll compare him Marbury who had a reputation as a malcontent, selfish, etc. who now I think has indisputably bought into the team concept (for better or worse). I’ll give him a pass on the whole Larry Brown era, which was a disaster from every perspective.

  16. Alessio

    It would have to be Crawford because I simply don’t see Sacramento settling for taking Richardson or Robinson and Jefferies for Artest.

  17. Adam F

    Just pointing something out. I don’t think there is any combination of players that we would approve of and the Kings brass would approve of. What I mean is that Artest by traditional measurements and reputations is an unbelivable talent. I don’t know what GMs look at, but I can’t imagine they review WoW, 82games.com, and the like religiously. I think his 19 points per game and his defensive reputation are things that go noticed. To think that the Kings would take anything less than David Lee, or a package of our youngsters including Morris, Balkman, Chandler, etc.

    With that said, if any of those trades mentioned above (which are hopeless in my opinion) could be done, I would love to have artest on this team. He would add a nice dimension of toughness, defense, and yet another perimeter option.

    Also, let me say this about Isiah, i think if there’s ever a question about character with a player Isiah’s probably the right coach for that player. You see, unlike Larry Brown, and all the other old white coaches, players can respect Isiah Thomas. I imagine a lot of these guys grew up idolizing Isiah. Artest, Z-Bo, and the like were 10 or 11 when Isiah and his bad-boys were tearing up the league. Thus, Isiah commands the respect of a lot of the players we say have “character issues,” and probably has a good influence on those guys.

  18. yo

    if jamal was to be traded eddy curry would hav no one good to pass it to him…u saw wat happend last yr when jamal was hurt…eddy was awful

  19. Charles

    I would do Crawford and Balkman for Artest in a heartbeat, and I think it’s a trade that Sacremento might go for. And just for the sake of closure, I would include the draft rights to Frederic Weis in the trade.

    Okay, Artest is a bit of a nut, but he’s also shown himself to be a committed teammate and a fierce competitor. He is a former DPOTY, and his addition would put a “true” position player at each position in our starting five.

    Q would thrive at the 2, posting up weaker guards or spotting up when the ball goes in to Zach or Eddy. Crawford is such a defensive liability that he practically negates his hot streaks. I love Balkman, but he’s going to be clawing for minutes, and we’d be getting a starter. This trade would leave the Knicks only one man over the roster limit and make them instant contenders in the East. I can think of no reason not to pull the trigger on this one if Petrie would okay it (big “if”).

    And let’s not forget – Artest wept when the Knicks failed to draft him. The man belongs here. He could even put a sticker on his locker – “You don’t have to be crazy to work here, but it helps.”

  20. Si

    thefatkid have you actually watched crawford?? Run an offense, consistant entry passes… yeah right. All that guy does is launch a shot up the moment he gets the rock and play shocking D.
    As for Artest- Sacto won’t part with him until the trade deadline I reckon. Then give them anyone except Marbury, Curry, Lee or Z-bo. Nate, Jeffries, Q, Crawford are all average players that arent going to become superstars ever. Artest will toughen you guys up. Try and get rid of the jabroni Jerome James!! If you get Artest Isiah will have got two decent guys in one offseason. I’m spooked.

  21. Z

    The way I see it the only way that the Knicks will get Artest is if there are no other teams willing to take on a player with such baggage and the Kings take an addition by subtraction approach. Nbrans is right to laugh at Jarod Jeffries for Ron Artest. One is an All Star, the other is a joke. But, the Kings could be desperate, and look to just break even in terms of salary. If this is the case, the Knicks wouldn’t be bidding against anybody else, so Isiah can stand pat with his best offer which may as well be Jeffries and Robinson. The Kings should demand Rose instead, though, because he has the exact contract as Artest, washing that out and getting a marketable crowd-pleaser in Nate.

    Are there any other teams that have shown interest in Artest besides the Knicks and Lakers? I haven’t paid too much attention, but can’t imagine the market is too big.

  22. Kevin

    OK…crawford for what he is (not the star of the team) is still very important to the team…he for sure with out a doubt is key in Curry sitution, and our only true shooting guard. Richardson plays the same position and has bad knees and would be ok to part with. even jeffries i would be willing to give up bc of his bad contract, even with his ‘potential’ and nate is a crowd pleaser, but way overrated. but i would still go with richardson bc he is older, bad knees, and bad contract over jeffries and nate bc at least nate has more trade value. crawford i would NOT trade.

  23. Mr. Black

    I would send Jamal Crawford for Artest. I would keep Q because while he is not as explosive as Crawford, he brings more to the game. Q is effective in the post, rebounds well, shows leadership, and he plays defense. Moreover, Q’s contract is shorter than Jamal’s by one year I think.

    Q can play the two. Artest can play the three. This would give you two players to help shore up the Knick’s awful back court defense.

    If Zach and Eddie are getting most of the touches, this further diminishes Crawford because Crawford does little else but shoot.

    I think Artest would do well to play with Lee and Balkman because they will keep pressure on him. Ron loses interest when he does not feel challenged.

    Starters: Reserves: Garbage time:
    Curry Rose or Morris Nichols
    Randolph Lee Jeffries
    Artest Balkman Chandler
    Richardson Robinson
    Marbury Collins

    James, Jones, and Dickua should be traded or cut.

  24. stopmikelupica

    As a Knick fan, I’m embarrassed by this discussion. None of these are viable offers; if I was in the King’s front office, and got these offers from Isiah I would cuss Zeke out for weeks!

    If we want Artest we’re going to have to give up something of value. That’s how trading works. Maybe if the Kings’ GM and our GM were teammates on the same championship-winning teams in the 80’s we could get a sweet deal, but that ain’t the case.

    So the real discussion should be this: Is Balkman or Lee worth giving up for Artest? Most Knick fans would say no.

    Is Fred Jones, Dickau and Nate Robinson or Randolph Morris enough to get the trade done for the Kings? And would the Knicks be willing to part with that? That seems the most likely scenerio (other than a deal not happening at all)….

  25. Leon

    I would trade Eddy Curry for Ron and either Francisco Garcia or Quincy Douby. I know what you are thinking, but I am not convinced a combo of Curry/Randolph will be a good thing.

  26. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    I guess another reason I went for no trade is because Artest’s value for Sacramento is greater than his trade value. Keep in mind the Pacers traded Artest for a declining Peja on the last year of his deal, and then moved Peja for a 2nd rounder & cash. So it’s not like Artest’s value is that high to being with.

    If I were Sacramento I would hope to get a Lee or Balkman. But if I were the Knicks I wouldn’t give up those guys. It reasonable that for both sides the value for Artest is so different, hence why I don’t see a trade coming this offseason.

  27. mastermind

    yeah, most of these trade offers are ridiculous. usually when a ‘star’ player is traded, draft picks are part of the deal. a pick obviously isn’t necessary, but that not one of the dozen or so proposals on here includes one is absurd.

    a more reasonable idea: malik rose, nate rob, a 1st rounder for artest

  28. Kevin

    ok, i see mr. black’s point on how crawford is better than richardson for the trade, however, i still think we need an shooter pick up then that can hit threes, bc if Q does not get back on his game with that we need ppl to kick the ball out to. now in regard to weather we are giving enough value for Artest. i think that artest trade value is low, and we can get away with a steal, and i would trade balkman over lee because while he did show a lot of potential that is still all it is, and lee is less of a question. I still do not think this will happen either way.

    the funny thing is that we passed on artest years ago in the draft, and now we are dsicussing bringing him in…and at the same time passing on him could be both good and bad because who knows if he would have had the trouble on the knicks or if now that he is trying ot overcome them he would be better to get after the fact.

  29. Savage

    The thing to keep in mind is that Artest’s opt-out clause is a pro and a con for NY. For the Kings, Artest is essentially an expiring contract. Worst case they can wait a year and gain some salary space. And if NY does wait for Artest to opt-out he WILL be more expensive.

  30. justin c

    Are you guys thinking about the same QRich I am? The one who has hardly played since he came to the Knicks in the first place? Why would Sacremento take that trade straight up? Even on the off chance that Q Rich plays 82 games, he was nowhere near the talent of Artest. Peja was an all star before he was traded to the Pacers, he was dropping 20+ a game and was deadly from beyond the arc, and Artest NEEDED to go at that point.

    Crawford is a better player than QRich, even when they are both healthy. I don’t think the Kings would consider QRich if Crawford was on the table, even though they have Kevin Martin. This is all moot, however, as these offers are such lowballs that the Kings wouldn’t consider unless we threw in sweetners and draft picks. I would personally trade them both for Artest, we have too many players that are alright, and none that are great. Artest is the defensive leader we need and can still drop 20 a game if we need it.

  31. Mel

    the most i’d deal is jared jeffries , nate and wilson chandler for artest.

    trading them as many small forwards possibly doesn’t really hurt its basically deciding whom to keep balkman or chandler …jared is just a guy they dont need but could be a good player especially on a defensively challenged team with enough offense to cover for him….this does describe the Kings…nate is just a good scorer and shooter but the knicks dont need him , but the Kings could get good use of him.

  32. UR stupid

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t they pick up Zach Randolph. So do they really need Arrest, I mean Artest…lol

  33. Z

    The Kings seem to be second to us in long term contracts they’d like to dump. Abdur-Raheem, Thomas, Bibby, Miller, plus throw in the combustible Artest and Petrie has his work cut out for him. I guess if they have to move Artest for personal reasons they’d like to package his reasonable contract with one of their burdoning ones for a little relief (which we can’t offer outside of the washable Malik Rose).

    Still, before we can make trade offers, we need to know who we are bidding against. Does anybody have an idea?

  34. retropkid

    Kings management isn’t stupid enough to take Jeffries or Malik — we own them till death do us part….ie, contract is up.

    I’d take Bibby and Artest and give them Starbury and Crawford….put a draft choice in for whichever team you think should have it.

  35. Z

    “the funny thing is that we passed on artest years ago in the draft, and now we are dsicussing bringing him in?”

    The Ed Tapscott Era went from horrible to genius the day Artest was suspended for a whole year. History may see him as the best GM the Knicks ever had.

    Either that, or he pulled a Homer…

  36. KFFL

    Hmm i’d trade Chandler,Nate,Dickau,and Jeffries for Artest and Abdur-Rahim…I’m pretty sure the salaries add up…correct me if i’m wrong though.

  37. LakerPhil

    I grew up watching the Knicks – when they were a classy organization. Now they will NEVER return to glory until they throw Isiah out! He’s ruined the franchise. He bankrupt the entire CBA! He has no talent or credibility as an “Ex”ecutive.
    So…trade isiah for whoever you can get. Eventually the Knicks will recover. Actually, Larry Brown’s history would have had them making major strides by now. Trust the history…it usually is a really good guide.

  38. Brian Cronin

    Jones and Dickau can’t be traded at the moment.

    If they could, yeah, I’d toss them in, too, and offer to take back one of Sacramento’s shitty contracts, like Kenny Thomas.

  39. Z

    “Jones and Dickau can?t be traded at the moment.”

    Yeah– I realized that today for the first time when I followed the link to the ESPN trade machine (big mistake– several hours I won’t be getting back). When can they be traded? (Also, Chandler can’t be traded until December or something).

    Also, the trade machine site says Jerome James expires in 2 years but that other salary site has it ending in 3. It expires in 3 years, right? (if he exercises his option…)

  40. knick fan in DC

    Sac will want some combination of expiring contracts,youth and draft picks. Our expirings
    (jones/dickau) can be traded on August 28th. Nate Rob has to be included. I understand they rejected a deal built around JJ2 so this can be hard to do. I would include JJ1 instead of JJ2 but no one wants big snacks. I would put chandler or morris in the deal.

    There are some knicks I would not include.I would not give up Lee or Balkman. I also like Rose for his D and maturity/locker room stuff but his expiring contract in two years may have value. Q would be great at starting SG if he stays healthy–I think he is untradeable due to bad contract and lack of insurance. I would like to keep crawford as he has improved defensively, has chemistry with curry and would be a good shooter off the bench. We would probably have to take back Kenny Thomas and his bad contract but if they take a JJ off our hands so be it. This deal gets done in September. Mark my words—Isiah will not stand pat.

    I checked this trade on real GM and it works after August 28th: Jeffries, Chandler, Jones, Dickau and Robinson for Artest and Thomas.

  41. OakLee

    why dont we just wait until his contract (ron-ron)
    expires next season?
    lets give chandler and nichols some playing time this year.

  42. knick fan in DC

    OakLee—I do not think we can get Ron Ron for the mle so we will need to make a sign and trade later or trade now.

  43. OakLee

    yeah i agree that artest will be more expensive next season when he opt out of his contract, but waiting till next year will give us more time to think who is
    in and who is out on our package in the ron artest sign and trade deal.

  44. OakLee

    i still believe that we haven’t seen the real
    jared jeffries, maybe this year he will show more.

  45. knick fan in DC

    Jeffries is over-rated as a defensive player (good but not great) and has no O. I watched him since he entered the league—I have wizards season tickets. Knicks made bad move in getting him. He is a good bench player nothing more. Good guy though.

  46. villainx

    I am really mixed on Artest. I love his game and he’s one of the main player who I track via the box scores. But I don’t see him solving a lot of the Knicks offensive issues. And on top of that, Artest wants to be the man/go to guy on offense (and that’s already with ball hog-ish Marbury, Curry, Zach, & Jamal). And that’s not including the typical Artest baggage. I sort of feel like if the Knicks are lucky enough to get Artest, they have to be even much more luckier that things don’t get worse.

    Though Artest probably solves a ton on the defense side.

    Anyway, aside from a small core of players, pretty much everyone else on the Knicks should be deal-able. I prefer a concentration of talent/quality, rather than so-so/potential quantity.

  47. Joe

    Why would the Kings accept either injury plagued Q-Rich or the street baller Crawford who is worthless for three quarters a game? Crawford is set to make 9 mil a year for 4 years and Q-Rich 9 mil for 3 years while Artest is only signed for 8 mil and 2 years. Once again you have to ask yourself why the Kings would want either player who is more expensive and signed for longer. The only way to get Artest is to give up a combo of Lee, Balkman, and lil’ Nate.
    My suggestion is that they get Artest and Stephen Jackson by giving up any combo of Lee, Balkman, lil’ Nate, and Mardy Collins. Then they would create a team of super criminals that would rob banks and such in order to recoup the ridiculous amount that they paid in luxury tax and salary over the past two years.

  48. Brian Cronin

    I just don’t buy that, Joe.

    Artest’s trade value, as good of a player as he is right now, is practically nil.

    They can certainly keep ASKING for a player like Lee or Balkman, but they’re not even going to get the offers for Artest that were out there when Sacramento picked him up, which was a disgruntled Corey Maggette and an injured free-agent-to-be Peja.

    Now, if you ask me again in September, then yeah, I think an offer like what “knick fan in DC” suggests would be workable.

    Sacramento is not going to get any good offers for Artest, and he is not going to stay with Sacramento past this season, so their bargaining position is awful here.

    If they choose to hold out for a Lee or a Balkman, then fine, then there’s no way Artest will be a Knick this season.

  49. Josh

    Why are people not mentioning the obvious. Artest went to St. Johns. Artest wanted to be drafted by the Knicks. We SHOULD have him NOW, but instead drafted Weiss. A New Yorker who wants to play in New York who plays defense and is at least nutty enough to punch people out, isn’t necessarily the worst thing in the world. That’s a guy who head-butted reggie miller or threw a punch at Kobe. If he gets suspended he gets suspended. DOes that need to be the end of the world? Was that fight last year with Denver so horrible for KNicks mentally? Are we really weighing what’s effects the team more; solid D with some damn hustle and heart or 7 games with Balkman starting at SF instead of Artest?

  50. bmj320

    A fair trade is Crawford and Balkman for Artest. Knick fans need to realize Balkman will never be able to score and Crawford isnt interested in playing defense. We can’t move Jared Jeffries or Q. Artest doesn’t need the ball like most think remember he played point forward like Scotty Pippen in college he brought the ball up and set up the offense. Isiah needs to do everything in his power to get Chandler and Nichols some playing time.

  51. Tom Ziller

    Brian —

    Artest’s value isn’t nearly as bad as you make it out to be. If it were, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. How anyone can honestly think Petrie would be so desparate to escape Ron by taking on one of the more ridiculous contracts in the league (Jeffries, Crawford both qualify in my opinion) in the middle of a rebuilding/cap-clearing effort is beyond me. If nothing else, Ron’s salary comes off the books in one of the next two summers. This is a league where Theo Ratliff was the biggest trade chip coming into the summer…

    Ron’s value has declined since the Peja trade. And Sacramento still robbed Indiana. He’s not as bad as everyone thinks.

  52. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    “Artest?s value isn?t nearly as bad as you make it out to be. If it were, we wouldn?t be having this discussion. How anyone can honestly think Petrie would be so desparate to escape Ron by taking on one of the more ridiculous contracts in the league (Jeffries, Crawford both qualify in my opinion) in the middle of a rebuilding/cap-clearing effort is beyond me.”

    Yeah I agree. I think his value is higher, whether perceived or real. For Sacramento to make this deal work, they would (and rightfully so) want to get expiring contracts and/or youth.

    However I don’t think the Knicks should do it. We’re not like the ’96 Bulls where we just need one crazy but talented player (Rodman) to turn us into champions. IMHO how much better Artest will make us isn’t worth the downside of his powderkeg igniting.

    If the Knicks want a strong defensive presense at SF, let’s just give Balkman the minutes.

  53. dan

    Q is our only two way SF and that worries me because of the health issues. I’d certainly feel more comfortable knowing that Ron was out there checking Pierce. I love Renaldo but he’s not a complete player and if we swap him for Ron we get better. Last year everyone lambasted IT over the Renaldo pick, now there’ll be a mutiny on the message boards if we trade him for RON ARTEST!!!

    I guess I’m with the guys who think that Sacto aren’t idiots.

    I think Lee could lead the league in rebounding so he’s untouchable. I think Crawford is good and getting better, I don’t see why people hate him so much even despite his shooting #s. . Crawford will play better on a better team. One which has some scoring from the wings and some communication on D. He’s a true two so I’d prefer not to trade him. Ron is an obvious upgrade over Q at the three. To me, if they’ll take Renaldo and if the expiring deals of Jones and Dickau make the $ work, IT should do it. Come on guys, the Celtics have Garnett. The combination of Zach and Ron keep us competitive now and we still have a core of young players to grow with.

  54. Sweed Johansen

    Ron Artest is certifiably insane (why else would you risk millions for some “time off” to record your ho’s album), and because of this he fits in well with the Knicks and the big “I” Mr. Thomas has the basketball sense of a **** and his character can be summed up in one moment – walking off the court like a little biiaaatch when the Bulls swept those punk pistons out of there final playoffs as the “badgirls” unit. NY’s best trade would be Mr. Thomas for a future 5th round draft pick……Ron Artest would certainly put a cherry on top of that demented sundae in the big apple!

  55. john

    unfortunately for knicks fans, the kings would never pull the trigger on any of these trades, and isiah is not quite the GM who could make one of these trades happen. nice fantasy, though.

  56. Savage

    What Ron still brings is a guy who can play solid D against almost anyone. The only time he is out of his league is a quality C or a really fast PG. His offense is actually very good when you can convince him to play within the system (great post, decent outside shot–gotta get him to stop jacking 3s), and his rebounding can be very good for a SF.

    Someone is going to decide between now and Feb that Ron Ron will push them over the top and Petrie will wait until then to pull the trigger. Funny you should mention Rodman, because I think that’s actually a pretty good comparison. He was just enough to push the Bulls over.

    The Knicks may not be a player away from serious contention, but they are going to want someone like RR when they face the Celts.

    Would RR take the MLE–even to play in NY? I don’t see it unless that amazing Rap career takes off. Nope, still don’t see it.

  57. Brian Cronin

    Oh yeah, Josh, I am not saying that Artest’s value is pathetic or anything like that – just not good enough to force a team like the Knicks to give up either Balkman or Lee.

    They might very well get a better offer from some other team.

    Just saying that, if they are holding out for Lee and/or Balkman, Artest is not a good enough commodity to get players like Lee or Balkman – good young players on a team that is not going to win a championship due to Artest joining up.

    Now on a team that WOULD become championship quality with Artest, then yeah, they’d be willing to give up more. If Miami had anyone to trade, I am sure they’d be willing to trade them.

  58. Brian Cronin

    What happened to the Nate Robinson post?

    Mike jumped the gun a bit by accident.

    Expect the finished piece on Monday.

  59. Brian Cronin

    Don’t worry, Owen, I think Mike’ll leave the comments up when the piece shows up again on Monday.

  60. Z

    “What happened to the Nate Robinson post?”

    What happened to the Q. Richardson post? (Doesn’t Rich come before Rob?)

  61. Josh

    Is it possible that it’s too late now for Artest? Did we miss the point of trading for him when he was young enough to still be molded into the type of SF we want?

    WE love his D but don’t need his scoring primacy (stealing a line from NBA Live. I still don’t completely understand what’s so bad about having a bad-ass rough-you-up lineup? If there is any place where this type of behaviour is tolerated, it would be New York. I can’t claim to see all of his games, but to me, NOT getting Artest was ALWAYS one of the biggest would-haves since the departure of Patrick Ewing.

    And please, Q-Rich is a tight player both on O and D (we’ve seen what he can do from behind the arc) but is this the guy who we buy posters of and list as our favorite top 10 knicks? (as has been going on at postingandtoasting)

  62. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    Z Said:
    August 17th, 2007 at 4:19 am e

    ?What happened to the Nate Robinson post??

    What happened to the Q. Richardson post? (Doesn?t Rich come before Rob?)

    Yeah, Q-Rich is Monday. Nate is a week after. I wish Q had leaked, at least it was completed & edited…

  63. ben

    I would trade Q or Jamal for artest and then trade the one who’s left for draft picks and players that help the future. Then i would trade marbury and curry for TONS of draft picks and other players for the future. we would have an OK team and we would have a great future. in 10 years we would have an amazing team. our lineup now would be collins/nate nate/artest artest/balkman lee and randolf/morris collins would playe 30 to nates 10. Nate would play 20 to artests 20 at SG. artest would play 10 to balkmans 30 at SF. lee would get 35+ with a few goin to malik or maybe even morris. and then randolf playin 30-35 at center with morris coverin the scraps. i think thats a lineup that could actually win.

  64. ben

    Also in a few years james’s contract and jeffries contract expire, and we just got rid of most of our huge payroll by givin up Q jamal steph and curry. we would have enough to resign our better players. And our future would be amazing.

  65. Caleb

    It’s not a bad idea in theory but those players don’t have much trade value, if any, at least not until the contracts are in their final year. Plus, we can’t just give away huge contracts for draft picks, you have to take back salary… and big-salary players that other teams are willing to give up… well, they have issues. (see Artest, Ron)

    But there are two types of deals that might work in our favor. One is a team in collapse, looking for cap room. Let’s say Detroit implodes in the next year or two (not saying they will, but maybe Rasheed goes nuts, the young guys don’t pan out, etc.)… Dumars could decide to rebuild, and trade Billups (and something else, obviously) for Steph’s shorter deal. Malik Rose expires next year, too… combined with, say, Balkman or Chandler, that could bring back a very good player. (if it were Detroit in rebuilding mode, someone like Tayshaun Prince)

    Option 2 – a team like Houston or Denver (or the Lakers) — desperately trying to win short-term — might trade expiring contracts and picks/prospects in exchange for our overpaid but somewhat useful vets.

  66. Ben R.

    I guess there is another ben now. Welcome. I will start putting an R. after my name to diferentuate.

    I do not want Artest anywhere near this team. His defense has declined the last couple of years, he is a cancer and his offense is inefficient. I would be tempted to trade Richardson or Jeffries just because he is an expiring but I think even for just a year he could really damage the Knicks.

    I think starting Balkman will get us just as much defense, much more rebounding and more efficient scoring. Artest is a much better volume scorer than Balkman but is worse than Q, Curry, Marbury, Randolph, Curry, and no better than Crawford. We do not want someone with a career TS% of 51% averaging 15 shots per 40 min.

    Artest would actually hurt our offense and would insist on getting his shots because he fancies himself a superstar.

    Say NO to Artest, let’s develop Balkman and Lee and maybe even use Jeffries if we need more defense.

  67. jgbluemke

    New Member here. I just purchased season tix in Section 345 Row A 2 Seats. Not looking to make a profit just looking to unload some of the cost/games. I am very willing to sell most weekend games if that is more helpful. Season ticket price of $40 per seat is $12.50 less than the same seats on ticketmaster. 345 is the corner of the court that the Knicks head to during the fourth quarter. Contact me at john.bluemke@gmail.com

  68. Z

    That trade machine site is fun. How about a 4 team trade:

    Lakers get: JO, Abdur-Raheem, Jared Jeffries.

    Kings get: Kwame Brown, Malik Rose

    Pacers get: Lamar Odom, Nate Robinson, Brian Cook, Maurice Evans

    Knicks get: Artest, Tinsley, rights to Marc Gasol.

    This is only if the Knicks really want Artest, which I’m not endorsing. It gives the Kings more cap relief than a straight up trade would get. It gets Kobe an A list PF to win now with while holding onto Bynum and tightening up their D, it gets Indiana mild cap relief, decent young players, and a chance to stay competitive as they retool. As for the Knicks, it treads water salary wise and brings in the guy we want (if we really want him), plus a future consideration (Gasol).

    The Pacers would probably want more, so they would obviously need to be pressured by JO’s agent in order for this trade to really work (the Trade Machne doesn’t take agent pressure into consideration…)

  69. Z

    or hey, what about this trade–

    Lakers get: JO, Jared Jeffries

    Pacers get: Kwame Brown, Malik Rose, Nate Robinson

    Knicks get: Lamar Odom, rights to Marc Gasol

    Again, JO would need to facilitate his own departure from Indiana, but the Pacers would get cap relief and crowd pleasing Nate; Lakers would get their PF to back up Kobe; Knicks would get Lamar who probably wouldn’t help much, but expires in ’09 (like Artest), would be a better teammate, allows us to get out from under Jeffries, and trims our roster down…

  70. Caleb

    considering the Pacers turned down Kwame and Lamar Odom for JO, don’t see why they’d take Malik and Nate. Maybe if Isiah slips something in the Birdman’s drink.

  71. Z

    Good point.

    I don’t think Isiah and Bird are quite as friendly with each other as Ainge and McHale.

    Anyway, probably time for me to lay off the trade machine for a while…

  72. villainx

    And, oh, speaking directly to the poll, I would trade: Jared Jeffries, Nate Robinson, Quentin Richardson & Jamal Crawford for Ron Artest. I guess I don’t see anything so unique in any/many of the Knicks player that would make them any better than Artest.

    Artest has all star talent, I don’t know how long if ever any of the above will develop to that. Sure, Q and Jamal have a nice game, and there is all that lost outside scoring, but you know, Artest has some offensive punch, and I rather be pining for outside scoring than lockdown defense.

  73. jon abbey

    the only way we’re getting Artest is if he basically forces a deal to NY, telling Petrie “I’m opting out after this season if you don’t trade me or if you trade me anywhere but NY” and then maybe something like Crawford or Q plus Nate and Morris could work, because Isiah doesn’t value Artest as much as Petrie does.

    I do think there’s a potential deal to be made for Jermaine O’Neal, especially if we also took Tinsley’s deal, something like Curry/Morris/Malik/Mardy/Fred Jones/Nate, I’d even consider swapping Q for Dunleavy to sweeten it a bit more. not saying that would work, but I do think there might be a match there where we could still hang on to Lee and Balkman and bring our roster down to 15 or lower. the first deal there (I can’t bring myself to put Dunleavy on an roster unless it actually happens) would leave us with:

    Marbury, Q, Balkman, Randolph, O’Neal, with Lee, Crawford, Tinsley, Chandler, Nichols, Jeffries, Dickau, James, 13 guys. that’s a team I’d go to war with, although I know Owen would be sad to see Curry go. :)

  74. Caleb

    Any deal that would bring back O’Neal without giving up David Lee would be a no-brainer. Indy will have to face reality, though, since they seem to be holding out for the moon. Even then you’re right it would probably require taking on Tinsley, Dunleavy or at least Troy Murphy.

  75. TDM

    Over the past three seasons, Jermaine O’Neal has missed 82 games – an entire season. Although he’s only 28 yrs old, he has 11 season behind him. I would see any deal for JO as a big risk.

    Speaking of risk, with regard to Artest, if he breaks wind towards the visitors bench, he’ll be gone for the season. Yes, he has amazing talent the Knicks could use. However, the guy is a certifiable headcase. The only way I’d trade for Artest would be if the downside was limited.

    Jeffries and Nate would limit the downside, since the Knicks would still have Q if Artest decides to take a vacation (i.e. season long suspension, personal leave to promote his budding rap career, etc.). Actually, I’d prefer to wait until Fred Jones or Dickau could be traded and throw one of them in with Jeffries. That would be a pipe dream, however.

  76. TDM

    Incidentally, I believe that Fred Jones and Dickau can be traded on or around August 29 (60 days after being traded to the Knicks).

  77. Ted Nelson

    I think the Pacers “seem to be holding out for the moon” because they think they have a pretty good team. All the indications I’m getting seem to say that they really like their core and are trying to make moves to complement rather than change it: hiring a veteran coach and adding only role players who have had moderate success in the NBA.

    Rightly or wrongly, Larry Bird just traded for Murphy and Dunleavy, so I don’t think he’s in a rush to dump them.

    In the end, if you move JO and one of Murphy, Dunleavy, and Tinsley what you’re left with isn’t that pretty: they’re still going to have some big long term contracts on their hands and not be in the best situation to rebuild. If they believe that they’re a solid playoff team this year (which, rightly or wrongly, I think they do), why take a step back unless you’re getting a young player you really love. Of course, if they’re not a solid playoff team it might be best to move JO for cap flexibility and young pieces.

    My guess is that Larry Bird believes he’s done a pretty good job constucting a team. That guess is based primarily on the fact that he has the determination, pride, and ego of the best player on a championship team.

  78. Nick

    Ted, Maybe the Pacers haven’t made a major move because they don’t salary cap room and no real attractive trade pieces besides JO. Those two limitations can really affect a club.

    Also, I doubt Bird really likes his team. He’s not stupid. He knows a team of JO, Dunleavy, Murphy, Tinsley and Granger aren’t going to do anything and I have to believe he knows he made a mistake in that big mega-player deal. He made that trade more to change the character of the team but he did it in a wrong way and he has to be regretting it.

    No, I think the reason he’s asking a lot for JO is that he knows there is a chance that JO comes back next season healthy and shows that he is a much better player than he’s shown recently. Right now, JO’s trade value is probably at its all-time low so making what seems a fair deal right now might turn out to be a big mistake later. Still, the Pacers have to rebuild, they would do well to trade JO but it might be better to wait until JO’s trade value goes up to trade him.

  79. Frank O.

    There is so much wishful thinking on this site, it’s getting a bit depressing.
    You can’t make a trade that is singularly good for the knicks. No GM would get anywhere with these offers. In fact, most teams would stop doing business with Isiah if he made some of these offers.
    Further, the Knicks prospects this year don’t look very good to many of you if you’re looking to make another change.
    The team’s chemistry takes a hit every year. This year, the Knicks have to find a way to adapt to Randolph. New dynamics often means losses. The Knicks can’t afford to give away losses if they plan to make the playoffs.
    I think Artest would be a negative overall. If everyone is so damn high on Balkman’s defense – I spent all summer since the draft and summer ball reading about what a great and effective and efficient player he is – then let’s give the man a chance to develeop and see if he lives up to the hype. Of course, he still can’t shoot much, but we don’t really want Artest for his O anyway, right? I mean, we already have four guys who need the ball in their hands all the time…
    And if you get Artest, David Lee’s minutes necessarily take another hit because this board seemed to be hoping that he could pick up 9 or so minutes at small forward…
    And we want David Lee to develop because based on this board he is the next great Knick. So wouldn’t it make sense that you let Lee develop?
    Or is all the hype about Balkman and Lee as thin among Knicks fans as rice paper???

    Sit tight. We need to stop subtracting by adding. The Knicks need to develop their talent, let contracts sunset, and get in a healthier position as an organization. With the core of guys they have, they just might get the 8th seed. Bringing on Artest doesn’t move them up much, so why make the move.
    And why give up so much for a one year rental anyway?
    I’m reminded of my history books and world war II. Hitler kept talking about a secret weapon that was going to turn the war around for Germany, yet most of its cities were in flames and the allies were closing in…
    There is no secret weapon here. There is no trade that is going to save the Knicks right now. Every time Isiah goes out to make a trade, he either is set to get his pocket picked or he’s getting a guy that most teams don’t want to take a risk on.
    We got Zach Randolph, a 20-10 guy, for a guy we and they wanted to buy out and a power forward that was soft and still undeveloped.
    Doesn’t anyone see the huge risk Isiah took with this guy? I mean, doesn’t the disparity and the utter lack of sense of the trade make anyone nervous? And did his press conference make anyone feel more comfortable? I mean, the man referred to his posse of miscreants as a family, a club and said they do charity work…meanwhile, it’s under investigation and they have a few felons in the mix…
    Whenever you think you are getting something for nothing, it should give you pause.
    That goes for Artest, too. If we got him for what largely is being offered on this board, I’d be really suspicious and would expect the other shoe to drop. I feel the same with Randolph. There’s another shoe and it’s coming…

  80. dan

    Frank O,
    You make a fantastic case, but I’m just a sucker for two way players. At least we know Zach gives us that at PF. Maybe that’s enough to make us better.

  81. ben B

    Thanks caleb for explainin y my plan wouldnt work. personally now that i know that, we should pretty much sit tight. we have alot of young talent developing in Balkman Lee Collins Nate Nichols and Morris, and in a couple years our salary will be back below the cap. We should trade away curry and steph right now for overpaid players who dont do very good and take a few draft picks also. we just wouldnt play those people who stink, but we would get good draft picks and in a few years their contracts will go away too. In 3 or 4 years i see us with a lineup of Mardy/Nate Nichols Balkman Lee and Morris, plus our next 3 years picks and the ones we get from steph/curry. all the contracts of James and randolf and them run out, then we can get a star or two who wont suck like marbury does. we will have a 8 man rotation that personally after a year or two to get chemistry would maybe go to a championship. All the young players will be great by then, and the stars would give us the scoring and defense we need. Personally a good player to pick up then would be Pau Gasol, and maybe we could get that other guy the wizards traded to them. Pau and that guy personally leave us with a finals team.

  82. Ted Nelson

    Nick,

    Danny Granger isn’t an attractive trade piece? Jeff Foster?

    You could be right, I’m just going based on the evidence I’ve gotten from the media and the Pacers’ moves. They don’t have cap space, but there have been some pretty decent free agents available for the MLE and lower. The could have tried to trade for/bought a pick, aquire the draft rights to Scola or JCN… Yet, as far as I remember, Travis Diener is the only NBA player the Pacers have publically taken a run at.
    I’ve seen no evidence that points to Bird feeling he made a mistake with deal (I’d be interested to hear if you could point some out).
    He might well regret it, but assuming so just because popular opinion says he should doesn’t seem logical. Popular opinion also says that the Knicks shouldn’t run an offense where they dump the ball to Eddy Curry and everyone else stands around and Jamal Crawford takes more shots than anyone else, but Isiah doesn’t seem to give a damn.

    That’s what I mean with the best player on a championship team thing. I’d argue that it takes a certain kind of personality to do that: someone who, among other things, has a lot of self confidence and a certain resilient stubborness. See Thomas, Isiah and Jordan, Michael. That same personality can backfire if you’re not as good an executive as a player.

    I’m not saying Bird is stupid, I just think he has a lot to prove. He only started running things without Donnie Walsh, what, 1 or 2 seasons ago, and the Pacers have gone from solid playoff team and possible contender to lottery team in that time.

    Basically, I agree with you that the Pacers are probably best off rebuilding, but I don’t think they see it the same way. Maybe another half season of sub-.500 ball and they will. Right now, however, I think Bird probably trusts that he acquired the right guys in Marquis Daniels, Murphy, Dunleavy, Diogu, Shawne Williams, Diener, Rush…

  83. Frank O.

    Sean: It appears Ben might be saying that we should dump Curry and Marbury for fuyture picks, plan on sucking for a few more years, only worse than now, and then use all the cap space and draft picks to build a killer team around our young and, by then, developed talent.

    That seems plausible…
    Of course, you would get more for Curry and Marbury moving them in the last years of their contracts…
    But I get what he’s saying, I think.

  84. sean

    Yea but am i the only one who caught the part where he said start Collins or nate at pg do we wanna go 0-82. there turnover prone that was our biggest issue of them all last year we were in the bottom five in turnovers. an without curry who ur running the offense threw. not D. Lee not balkman. An Crawford make thinks he A.I. but it wouldnt be wise to run it threw him either. I mean jesus this guy is suggesting we furnish a community college basetball team to play in the garden against nba players. Our YOUNG TALENT IS NOT THAT GOOD IN FACT NON OF THEM HAVE UNLIMITED POTENTIAL. David is basically at his potential. Balkman if he ever finds a shot will be a poor mans raja bell. Nate is honestly a joke as a draft pick at best he a steve Kerr kinda player. Collins is being compared to Eric Snow. Im sorry but when the hell did Eric Snow considered a star, heck he was a subpar starter for most of his career

  85. Owen

    “Balkman if he ever finds a shot will be a poor mans raja bell.”

    Were you trying to piss me off? Because it worked.

  86. Owen

    Renaldo Balkman with an effective jumpshot and the ability to hit 3-4 out of the foul line would be just about the best small forward in basketball, and one of the best players in the game.

    Compare Benaldo Balkman to Shawn Marion. There non-scoring per 48 numbers are remarkably similar. Shawn Marion is at his absolute peak, Balkman hasn’t even hit his stride.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm.cgi?req=1&cum=0&p1=mariosh01&y1=2007&p2=balkmre01&y2=2007

    Who knows if Balkman will replicate his numbers in extended minutes next year. I am hoping he will. But I think its wrong to say he doesnt have TUP.

  87. Duff Soviet Union

    That’s a pretty good catch Owen. Apart from scoring, the biggest difference seems to be that Balkman commits almost twice as many fouls as Marion. Given that Balkman was a rookie who probably got no respect from the refs, I’d expect that gap to diminish soon. I also wouldn’t say Marion was at his absolute best last year. He shot worse from outside than he has since 2001 and his PER was his lowest in 3 years. Try comparing Marion as a rookie to Balkman as a rookie. Marion couldn’d shoot either (4-22 from 3 compared to 5-27 for Balkman), so maybe there’s hope that Balkman can learn to shoot, although Marion was streets ahead of him as a free throw shooter, implying that he just has more natural talent at that skill. Still, good work.

  88. Nick

    Balkman as comparable to Marion. Athletically? Certainly. Ability to play above his size? Yes. But offensively Balkman is no way close to Marion and most likely never will be. Marion is not just some product of Steve Nash. He was a 20 point scorer before Nash got there.

    In his one season of college ball at UNLV, Marion averaged 18.7 pts/game. The highest Balkman ever averaged is 9.6 pts/game in his last year. Marion doesn’t play on the ball much but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a plethora of offensive moves. He has a runner with very good touch, a turnaround jumper and an accurate 3-point shot. If his shot wasn’t so aesthetically foul, people wouldn’t think of him as some sort of offensive grunt.

    I don’t even know what moves Balkman has. His attempts come from putting back offensive rebounds and filling the lane on fastbreaks. He doesn’t even look for his offense. He doesn’t play with that mindset. Some things just aren’t meant to be. Balkman is or will be a fantastic energy role player, someone who could fit right in on the San Antonio Spurs, which is high compliment, but he is not in the neighborhood of Marion. If only Balkman could shoot, yeah if only.

  89. ben B

    I think we have plenty of talent. Frank O. understood what i was thinkin exactly, and if nate dribbled a little less and passed more he could make for a great PG. he would be a scoring option, and he can handle the ball well. Mardy on the other hand only turned the ball over because of inexperiance. I think he plays great Defense which we need, and he can rebound well which is a nice talent to have. Also he gets the job done as a point guard. i didnt see him doin too bad. all he really needs is a jump shot and experiance and i put him as a great PG. Balkman could be a star someday like Owen said, Morris is an all around good center, even if david lee stays how he is he is an amazing player, picking up gasol and navarro like i said would give us two more quality players, and nichols is an amazing shooter. thats an 8 man rotation which is like
    1.collins/nate
    2.nichols/navarro
    3.balkman/lee
    4.lee/gasol
    5.gasol/morris
    personally in a few years once talent has develpoed thats finals contender. also navarro and gasol dont take all our money, so we could pick up another man to help out if we needed it.

  90. ben B

    at the very least i couldnt see us missin the playoffs. the celtics new big 3 will b done by then, the heat will be too old, and the pistons will be too old. thats two current playoff teams gone, and by then kidd will be gone from nets. i see ourselves winning divison over raptors, but at the least makin 4 5 or 6 seed

  91. Nick

    Ted, Nope, I don’t have any links. I was speculating based on how Murphy and Dunleavy performed in Indiana and my impression of Bird as not a stupid guy, just like you were speculating on Bird’s personality traits based on his playing career and how that would affect his impression of his team.

    All I know is that Bird hasn’t come out and said that JO is not being traded because he expects to be a contender next season with the team they have. He has instead said he will only trade JO if the right offer comes along. That he is even considering dealing JO and that there have been reports of trade discussions between Indiana and LA about O’Neal lead me to believe that maybe he’s realistic about the team he has.

  92. xduckshoex

    Balkman will be lucky if he ends up being half the player Marion is on the offensive end.

    And while it’s true that both Marion and Balkman were bad three point shooters as rookies, the major difference in my eyes is that Marion had a respectable mid-range jumper while Balkman doesn’t. It’s a lot easier to extend your range a little bit than it is to develop a reliable shot from nothing.

  93. Duff Soviet Union

    “And while it?s true that both Marion and Balkman were bad three point shooters as rookies, the major difference in my eyes is that Marion had a respectable mid-range jumper while Balkman doesn?t. It?s a lot easier to extend your range a little bit than it is to develop a reliable shot from nothing.” Yeah, I agree with you on that one. That’s what I was trying to get at by commenting on the vast differences in their free throw percentages. Still, the rest of their game is remarkably similar and a moderately discounted Shawn Marion is still quite valuable. Man, all the heat Isiah got from drafting this guy seems so long ago.

  94. xduckshoex

    I agree, I think Balkman will end up being a valuable member of some good basketball teams(hopefully in NY) even with his offensive shortcomings. Sort of like a Ben Wallace playing from the small forward position.

  95. bmj320

    Wow, some of these posts are so ridiculous with no logic. I myself like Balkman as well but he is not a skilled player. All he is is high energy and the Knicks need skilled players.If the right deal came along he should be moved. Too many overpriced mediocre players, I would like to see Chandler and Nichlos get some minutes. Chandler is probably what the Knicks are missing. He is a two way player and doesn’t demand the ball. He can make an outside shot that would take pressure off of the big men down low. Nichols seems to be an efficient shooter, granted it was summer league he defended and has good height and would be able to cover a lot of the bigger sg that Crawford has trouble with.

  96. Sean

    Owen your kidding yourself if you ever think Balkman with a shoot is anything more than a poor mans Raja Bell. Little know fact guys Balkman is not 6’7 hes barely 6’6. Secondly to consistently guard pf and center he needs to add serious weight maybe 20 lbs.An you know with weight he loses some speed. Look the kid is a energy guy hard nose but lets not go koo koo an start calling him the next Shawn Marion. Now Ben b lets look at your dream team for the Knicks:
    1.collins/nate
    2.nichols/navarro
    3.balkman/lee
    4.lee/gasol
    5.gasol/morris
    Once again you have Collins as your starting PG. Ok Ben he played well down the stretch after all our injures, but tell me something how many young players you think play well that time a year when teams are resting there stars for the playoff? I can name a ton heck the team with the perfect example of this is Memphis.(check the stats from last year boys)Secondly you want the Knicks to get Gasol a good back to the basket kinda guy who rebounds well, but comes with the label SOFT an hasnt had a full season under his belt after a major surgery.Hey you guys recall thE Antonio Mcdyess brief time in NY RIGHT. Well if you dont let me refresh we traded Nene, Camby,& Mj(mark jackson)for coming of serious surgery hadnt play a full season Antonio Mcdyess and some bum name frank Williams. Next Navarro Euro sheek ok look can we name a european guard not name Manu that has done absolutely anything in the NBA in this century? D.Lee safe to say we all love the kid. Heck he’s my favorite caucasian knick player since Travis Knight.(LMAO)Ok before all the David Lee lovers get on me it was a joke. Anyway back on topic D. lee to me is a much more Athlethic Drew Gooden. Look they both have the same strength an weakness. Too slow to be a three, and not enough range(yet)either. On the Flipside there not strong enough to really be fours, and cant defend the position either.No I know you guys are gonna say well Drew Gooden(Cavs) made the finals as a starting Four.Yea well at one point Eric Snow started for the Cavs. Lets be honest the Cavs went to the finals on Lebron’s Back. Now Randolph Morris ? have anyone watch this kid play. I saw a little bit of him in college an scarily he reminds me of EDDY CURRY except he will never have that high of a FG percentage. I mean dude refuses to move his feet on D hardly ever rebounds heck the only thing he got on Curry is a suspect Mid Range game. Actually now that I think about it he sounds more like Channing frye.

  97. Sean

    Damn do I need to really touch on Nichols and Balkman. Basically guys look at it this way if we could combine the 2 into one player we would have a STUD at Sf probably the best Sf the Knicks had in 20 years. (B. King included yea i said it) but guys Isiah doesn’t have the technology to do that(or does he)now if you look at them separately ones weakness is the others strength. Nichols sad to say is a soft player(just look at Syracuse’s games), not a great, good, maybe not even an average defender(just look at Syracuse’s games)don’t believe me he was great in the zone defense but sucked on man on man(he’s the next dirk nowitzki on defense).But for all his short comings the kid can shoot the ball yes even though it was summer league that was evident.Now RENALDO
    BALKMAN the kids got speed, can actually handle the ball,(a lil bit)jumps out the building, plays incredible Defense, and most importantly plays hard.SOunds like the Perfect player right except the opposing team could leave him open an NEVER
    have to worry about him hitting a shot outside of 2-3 feet from the rim(great dunker). I think Dolan should buy a machine to combine players shit we would have arguably the best sf in the game if these too merged

  98. Owen

    “Your kidding yourself if you ever think Balkman with a shoot is anything more than a poor mans Raja Bell.”

    Um, why am I kidding myself? What is so great about Raja Bell? What about RayBal’s non-scoring stats doesn’t remind you of Shawn Marion? And who said anything about Balkman covering centers?

  99. Sean

    first most of Balkman minutes in the early going came when we were getting blown out. Lot easier to get steals,rebounds,and block shot when the other teams up by 15-20 an don’t care anymore. Now did you watch the few games early in the season when Renaldo started minus the offense he didn’t do that great. balkman has actually covered center before he was the only one on the team who could control Yao from dropping 50 on us. He cant guard the four spot heres the key word CONSISTENTLY at that weight. look stats can say a lot but you also have to watch the game to see whats going on. and from the game RENALDO can guard the 3-2-1 excellently with no problem. He has struggled at time guarding strong 4-5.(minnesota game against Paul Millsap and Craig Smith)plus the fact that balkman isn’t even 6’8 he was actually measured at the orlando predraft camp as 6’6 makes he better suited to guard wing players. Not pf which is what Marion does consistenly. Balkman needs to actually make his free throws at a way better clip for him to even be considered close to Marion. Basically Owen stats are nice an all but they dont tell the whole story heck if u believe Stats Stephon Marbury threw his career has been the best pg of his generation.

  100. Owen

    What stats say Stephon Marbury has been the best pg of his generation? Is he a member of the same generation as Jason Kidd and Steve Nash?

  101. Sean

    Yea he in there generation and his career numbers of 19.9ppg an 7.9apg thrumps kidds numbers 14.5ppg and 9.2apg an are a lot better than Nash 14.0 ppg and 7.6 apg. Marbury wasn’t bs when he said he was the best pg a few years ago if you look solely at his stats he has a damn good case. Until this past season he an Oscar Robertson are the only player to have career average of 20 ppg an 8 rpg. So Owen dont take my word for it look up the stats yourself

  102. Owen

    Sean – Stephon Marbury for his career has been a slightly above average point guard. He is nowhere close to the best point guard of his generation.

  103. Sean

    Owen looking at his stats solely your argument makes no sense(that he isn’t the best out of those three) an that my whole point you cant go by stats alone. Ask anyone if they would prefer a pg that average 20 and 8,a pg that average 15 and 9, or a pg that averages 14 and 8. Who do u think they would pick if they didn’t know the names? BE HONEST!

  104. Sean

    its insinuating, and yes thats exactly what the stats say his career numbers of 20 ppg an 8 apg only he and Oscar Robertson has ever done that. So im not comparing the two at all im going strictly by the STATS an thats whats the STATS say.

  105. Sean

    But Paul please do answer the question i proposed in my previous post going by the numbers with out any names whose numbers would you select

  106. Owen

    Sean – Who isn’t making sense? Jason Kidd averaged 8 rebounds per game as a point guard last year and has a career rebound rate twice as high as Marbury. He probably is one of the best rebounding point guards of all time and he has been an all NBA defensive player. Steve Nash was the point guard of the best offensive unit of all time and has a career ts% 7% higher than Marbury. Who do you think I would choose?

  107. Caleb

    “stats are nice an all but they dont tell the whole story”

    If you were looking at the right stats they would tell you that Balkman is already a good player, even if he isn’t – or ever will be – Sean Marion.

    It’s also ridiculous to criticize his defense by saying he can’t consistently guard PFs or centers, “only” everyone else. Or Yao Ming, in a pinch.

    As for 6’6, that’s without shoes, and pretty much every NBA roster gives the measurement WITH shoes. RB has good size for a small forward, which is what he is. Not sure why so many posters like to compare him to other PFs – I guess it’s because he rebounds so much better than our starting center.

  108. Caleb

    ?stats are nice an all but they dont tell the whole story?

    If you look at the right stats, not per-game points and assists, they tell a pretty accurate story about Marbury, too – that he’s been a good or very good point guard (at least offensively) but nowhere near the best of his generation. Or Oscar’s.

  109. Sean

    But thats my point exactly Caleb im by no means saying Stephon is Oscar im showing how stats can be misleading. Im trying to show Owen that you cant honestly compare Renaldo To Sean Marion. Oh an Qwen the best offensive unit of all time wasnt last year Suns try the lakers of the mid 80’s

  110. Sean

    But thats my point exactly Caleb im by no means saying Stephon is Oscar im showing how stats can be misleading. Im trying to show Owen that you cant honestly compare Renaldo To Sean Marion. Oh an Owen the best offensive unit of all time wasnt last year Suns try the lakers of the mid 80’s

  111. Sean

    An Caleb I actually was under the impression He RB was A PF not a SF I mean all threw College he only played PF. I seriously only think he was converted to SF because of his speed an ability to defend the three position

  112. Sean

    When to teh link an I found this post interesting please read carefully what it says.
    First of all, a reality check. According to 82games, Balkman was on the court for 2075/1.03 = 2015 defensive possessions. If we assume that NY opponents scored at the same rate on their scoring possessions when Balkman was on the court or off (2.2 pts/ScorPoss), that means NY opponents scored on 48% of their possessions with Balkman on the court, with a 95% confidence interval of 45-50%. Without Balkman on the court, opponents scored on 52% of their possessions, with a CI of 51-53%. This is a statistically significant difference, but you can see that Balkman’s 1063 minutes leaves plenty of room for uncertainty.

    Generally, the standard error for 100*pts/poss can be estimated as 250/sqrt(poss).

  113. Sean

    Also when the administrator was asked?
    Was there a player in the NBA who had a better defensive differential than Balkman?

    the answer were bruce bowen an slightly better kelvin kato
    Yea kelvin I hardly played 20 mins this year Kato do we now see how stats are misleading

  114. Sean

    ” think you guys are overthinking it, really. MOST of his PT was in garbage time, against lesser players. Not all, but most. He’s probably better than most garbage players in the league, but is just trapped near the end of the Knicks’ rotation.” says gabefarkas

  115. Owen

    Sean – The best offensive unit of all time was the 2002 Dallas Mavericks. See Basketball on Paper by Dean Oliver, p. 32.

    I compared Balkman’s non-scoring stats to Marion’s, after your “poor man’s raja bell” comment. With an improvement in scoring rate (from 15.1 p40 to 22.4) and shooting efficiency (from 53.1 ts% to 59.4 ts%), Balkman and Marion would actually have very similar statistics. That probably could only happen “if (Balkman) had a jump shot,” but if it did, Balkman would be one of the best players in the NBA, just like Shawn Marion is now.

    Balkman has a long way to go offensively, but he has only played one year in the league. It’s not crazy to see that potential in him. And even if he doesn’t reach that potential, i.e. if he just does what he did last year but playing 2800 minutes, he will be a pretty great player for us.

  116. Sean

    “Balkman has a long way to go offensively, but he has only played one year in the league. It?s not crazy to see that potential in him. And even if he doesn?t reach that potential, i.e. if he just does what he did last year but playing 2800 minutes, he will be a pretty great player for us.” at least we can agree on that

  117. Owen

    Sean – the Gabe Farkas comment you just cited was the one that was debunked. The thread is sort of complicated, I have seen it before, but the consensus seemed to be that Balkman played a lot of minutes with and against lineups that had a majority of starters on the floor.

    And Bruce Bowen was the only player in the league with a better defensive differential than Balkman, as the admin noted in his comment on the thread.

  118. Caleb

    Damn you write fast.

    “the answer were bruce bowen an slightly better kelvin kato. [cATO] Yea kelvin I hardly played 20 mins this year Kato do we now see how stats are misleading”

    Joba Chamberlain has an ERA of 0.00. 0.00. Does that make him the greatest pitcher of baseball history? Yes!!! He has the all-time record for the greatest ERA!!! Oh wait, he’s only pitched 7 innings. ERA must be totally misleading.

    In reality, stats are extremely illuminating, if you look at them closely. Marbury scores a lot for a PG but his percentages are so-so, he doesn’t rebound and his defensive stats are poor. Balkman may not be the best defensive player in the league, but he was very good in limited minutes last year and everyone is excited to see if he can do it again. The sonicscentral link shows his numbers last year weren’t misleading – with the caveat that the sample size was pretty small (though a lot bigger than 20 minutes, or 7 innings).

    As for Balkman’s position, most players who are athletic enough to make the NBA shift position when they get there. College is full of 6’7 power forwards and 6’4, 6’5 small forwards. Except for a handful of freaks like Marion or Charles Barkley or young Garnett, they’re all playing smaller positions in the NBA.

    Did Richard Jefferson play any PF, or is that my bad memory? Dave?

  119. kaseli

    I would have been in favor of getting Artest…until I heard the latest comments by Marbury about his buddy Vick. To me this is the last straw. The guy has got to be the stupidest player in the NBA. Has he not learned throughout his long career what to say and what not to say?
    The guy is so bad for the Knicks reputation, you’ve got to be afraid for him to open his mouth.
    Not enough that they’ve added Randolph to the mix which isn’t going to help in the matter…
    But now people want Artest as well.
    I know that this is about winning basketball games, but to be honest, if I can’t look forward to the games simply because there’s a bunch of disrespectful millionaires running around with an IQ that doesn’t exceed my dog’s, I would prefer losing.

  120. retropkid

    kaseli, even worse is that those millionaires DO lose…. Starbury has to go — character matters, and when your “leader” just doesn’t have any character at all (his sneaker deal doesn’t impress me), and when his career record screams “loser” and when he can’t make his teammates better — the Knicks have a losing hand, time to shuffle the deck…

    Of course, character is lacking from the owner to the coach to the star player…GO KNICKS!

  121. ben B

    I kno its a way late response and u mite not get this sean, but we wouldnt sign gasol this year. we would wait a few untill he’s bak in free agency. also, by then we will kno if he can play after injury. if he cant we could try to get some other pf/c that will be able to help out. also, i really think that mardy colins will be a very good guard. he’s an above average defender, and with experience will be better. he has a below average shot that will get to be good. and he has good enough passing and court vision. in a couple years that will be better too. another thing i left out of my team is what we will get from marbury, Q, Curry, Jamal, randolf, and if we could trade em, the two JJ’s. we would have lots of new draft picks comin in, and they would finally be ours.

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