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Thursday, July 24, 2014

What the Bloody Hell? NBA Nixes Paul-to-Lakers Three-Way

The Chris Paul deal is dead.

Long live the Chris Paul deal.

NBA Commissioner David Stern decided to negate the three-way deal involving the Hornets, Lakers, and Rockets, roughly two hours after it was announced for “basketball reasons”. To this point, as far as I can tell, it is unclear under what specific auspices the league acted to block the deal. That, to my mind, is a very important point that needs clarification. It will tell us a good bit about precisely what kind of precedent has been set. Did Stern act in his role as custodian of the Hornets franchise? Or did he act in his role as league commissioner, using his “best interest” powers to preserve some notion of competitive balance? We may never get a straight answer, but I really hope that our good friends in the punditry will push Stern to clarify this point.

The league’s statement would have us believe that the commissioner acted as custodian. If so, it certainly raises the question: why was the league was hands-off until after the deal was announced? At absolute minimum here, the league has exhibited almost criminally poor form in allowing a deal for all-star caliber players to go forward while it was unsatisfied with the return. Add to that, doesn’t this alleged dissatisfaction thoroughly undermine Dell Demps, the supposed franchise caretaker, going forward? It is difficult to imagine a bigger “fail” than for the league to veto a deal its representative negotiated with two other teams, particularly for players of this magnitude.

Not surprisingly, when something stinks in the NBA Dan Gilbert is usually somewhere in the area. He gives us plenty of reason to believe that Stern actually used his “best interest” powers to negate the deal so as not to run afoul of owners who don’t care to see the Lakers acquire another elite talent. If so, that sets an extremely troubling precedent. The league will likely say that Gilbert’s email was just “Gilbert being Gilbert” and had no bearing on its decision, but either way it is difficult to see how nixing this trade helps New Orleans “for basketball reasons” at all. [Update: Apparently the timestamp on the Gilbert email shows that it was received after the commissioner nixed the trade. To be clear, there is no implication that Gilbert killed the trade--merely that he represents a view on competitive balance to which Stern appears sympathetic.]

Where to now? It’s hard to say. Almost nothing would surprise me, including having the trade go through today. As Beckley Mason of HoopSpeak noted, it is conceivable that somebody coughs up an extra draft pick or something to allow the league to save face and get the deal done. It is possible Stern comes to his senses this morning, recognizes that he misread prevailing sentiment, and reverses course. The public discourse last night and this morning has been almost universally critical of the league, and rightfully so. But, Stern clearly favors the same group of hard line owners that went scorched earth on a brilliant 2010-11 season with a lockout that won significant fiscal concessions but did not fundamentally alter existing rules governing player movement. So, it wouldn’t surprise me if the Hornets’ “29 owners” go scorched earth on it too.

200 comments on “What the Bloody Hell? NBA Nixes Paul-to-Lakers Three-Way

  1. Z-man

    You could argue that the whole purpose of the salary cap is to strongly discourage “big 3″ situations. I actually agree with Gilbert’s argument that the Lakers, by getting Paul AND freeing up $20 mill AND $20 mill in luxury tax is inconsistent with the spirit of the cap. On the other hand, why should the Hornets still exixt at all when the League has to “own” them? Isn’t that a conflict of interest? Shouldn’t the league just contract by one team and “amnesty” the entire roster? The NBPA wouldn’t like that, I bet…

  2. David Crockett

    “You could argue that the whole purpose of the salary cap is to strongly discourage “big 3? situations. I actually agree with Gilbert’s argument that the Lakers, by getting Paul AND freeing up $20 mill AND $20 mill in luxury tax is inconsistent with the spirit of the cap.”

    The counter is that the cap’s purpose is to strongly *encourage* players to stay with their original teams, and that’s it. As for the Lakers, it’s difficult to see how they are being underhanded or nefarious. This doesn’t seem to be like other scenarios where the league has stepped in to veto a contract that undermined the cap based on a technicality. This seems more arbitrary. LA’s (potential) “Big 3″ is worthy of league intervention on the grounds of competitive balance, but Boston’s was okay.

    “On the other hand, why should the Hornets still exixt at all when the League has to “own” them? Isn’t that a conflict of interest? Shouldn’t the league just contract by one team and “amnesty” the entire roster? The NBPA wouldn’t like that, I bet…”

    It’s clearly a conflict of interest, but may be unavoidable in the short term when a team goes belly up. As for contraction, if the NBA would expand rosters and the cap to compensate I bet the NBAPA would be willing to chat…

  3. Dan Panorama

    As much as I like the idea of the Lakers not getting Paul (and then, god-forbid, Howard), I find myself really upset over this. This could have just as easily been the Knicks in their position, how could they lead the Hornets GM to think he has full authority only to blow up the deal right as it was about to be completed? This doesn’t just make a mockery of the idea the Hornets are a “real” franchise, it hobbles them for all future deals. Why would you want to get involved with that team ever again if you can avoid it?

  4. Dan Panorama

    At least the process is accelerated this time. At this rate, the whole Paul/Melo/Williams 2012 drama will be resolved by Monday and we can focus on the season.

  5. cgreene

    Z-man:
    You could argue that the whole purpose of the salary cap is to strongly discourage “big 3? situations.I actually agree with Gilbert’s argument that the Lakers, by getting Paul AND freeing up $20 mill AND $20 mill in luxury tax is inconsistent with the spirit of the cap.On the other hand, why should the Hornets still exixt at all when the League has to “own” them? Isn’t that a conflict of interest? Shouldn’t the league just contract by one team and “amnesty” the entire roster? The NBPA wouldn’t like that, I bet…

    the intention is that the Lakers will sign Paul to a $100M extension at the end of this year’s deal w his Bird Rights. So although the trade initially looks like it saves the Lakers money in practice it does not.

  6. Count Zero

    I don’t find this as disturbing as most people do — simply because I don’t think this is the kind of franchise-changing decision that should be made by the temporary management. The talks should never have started in the first place.

    I.e., unless you think no one is going to buy the Hornets this season, this is a decision which should be left to the new owner. CP3 is the franchise — if I’m buying the team, I want to talk to Paul and I want to make the decision on what I am willing to trade him for if I can’t convince him to stay. It doesn’t matter how many times he said he WON’T stay — I want to talk to him personally.

    Trading the team’s biggest asset away and then selling it reduces the value significantly.

  7. JoMo

    Bill Simmons’ article on this whole fiasco was pretty emotional, but I agree with many of his points (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7334835/the-sixth-day-nba-christmas)

    This Paul thing aside, does anyone want to talk about our depth now with the acquisition of Chandler? The front-line looks imposing, but after that … uh … what happens? We still have a single operating Center with the departure of Turiaf, so does this mean they definitely tap Jerome Jordan and Harrelson to fill that role? Jordan looks virtually identical (physically) to Chandler, so hopefully he picks up a lot from him.

    Also, if Hill doesnt take our MLE (which looks like the likely scenario), are we then shopping for a PG? Backup C?

  8. Dan Panorama

    But is there any sign the Hornets are going to have a new owner anytime soon? Or before the trade deadline?

  9. Matt Smith

    @4

    While I highly doubt it would ever happen, I’d do that trade: Chauncey and Melo for D-Will.

    Always liked D-Will. Maybe not as good as a pure point as Paul, and maybe not as quick, but definitely stronger and less worrisome (concerning injuries).

    I’m still not convinced Amare and Melo’s offensive styles can coexist, but I know D-Will and Amare’s would be able to. And I think Deron is a good enough scorer to make up for what we lose with Melo. It just seems to me like we’d have a more complete team.

  10. d-mar

    Just heard on ESPN that Howard to the Nets is close to happening, maybe today. So the Magic can’t get a better offer than Lopez and a few draft picks, which won’t even be lottery? Just doesn’t make sense.

  11. JoMo

    d-mar:
    Just heard on ESPN that Howard to the Nets is close to happening, maybe today. So the Magic can’t get a better offer than Lopez and a few draft picks, which won’t even be lottery? Just doesn’t make sense.

    Yeah, while I understand the frenzy to acquire Paul, why is there not similar fervor to getting the best Center in the league?

  12. JK47

    Seems like now would be the time to try to flip Amar’e and something else– maybe Landry Fields– for Howard.

  13. Dan Panorama

    The prospect of a Chandler/Melo/Amare Knicks battling a Howard/D-Will Nets several times a year is at the same time kind of face-meltingly awesome, though. That’s where truly epic rivalries come from.

  14. TDM

    I still think this deal will happen and CP3 will eventually end up in LA. Any objective person looking at the deal can see that NO is getting a ton of talent (3 starters, a backup pg and a 1st rounder) for a guy intent on leaving. Better to have that, than to have him pull a LeBron. Stern and the complaining owners will eventually come around to realize that.

    Not to mention, the teams involved and CP3 are all looking into the legality of the league vetoing the trade. This could get very messy. Stern likely got Dan Gilbert’s ‘travesty’ email, and had a knee-jerk response.

    As far as Dwight going to the Nets, I think that may have been in response to seeing the CP3 deal blocked – he doesn’t want to play in LA if there isn’t a top-tier pg passing the rock.

  15. Eternal OptiKnist

    JK47: Seems like now would be the time to try to flip Amar’e and something else– maybe Landry Fields– for Howard.

    Or maybe even Melo. We can’t let the Nets pull this off..I sure hope it’s BS.

    Dan Panorama: The prospect of a Chandler/Melo/Amare Knicks battling a Howard/D-Will Nets several times a year is at the same time kind of face-meltingly awesome, though. That’s where truly epic rivalries come from.

    Though it may make for a great rivalry and awesome basketball..i feel like we end up on the short end of the stick most nights. I LOVE the Chandler signing, but I HATE the price…this is going to hamstring us financially. Assuming everyone stays healthy (big stretch), it makes us a really good, competitive team that will never win a chip. A big step up compared to the last decade but considering the Nets are set up to truly contend if DH12 goes there with D-Will, I ain’t thrilled.

  16. DS

    How the hell could Orlando give up Howard for Brook Lopez and a bunch of picks in the mid teens?

    That’s not happening, sorry.

  17. The Formerly-Congenial Cock Jowles, #1 Gentleman

    DS:
    How the hell could Orlando give up Howard for Brook Lopez and a bunch of picks in the mid teens?

    That’s not happening, sorry.

    Weird, huh. Brook Lopez is one of the worst starting centers in the league (almost as bad as Bargnani in terms of height-to-rebounding ability), yet is the centerpiece in a trade for the best pure center since Shaq’s prime. F*** the heck?

  18. Count de Pennies

    How bad would things look for the NBA and Stern if they wait until Howard is traded to NJ before finally approving Paul to LA?

    It would be hard not to conclude that the league’s primary intent was to stall the Paul deal just long enough to compel Howard to cross the Lakers off his wishlist, thereby preventing the possibility of yet another Big-3 forming in LA.

  19. DS

    Z: So the Knicks did offer Amar’e for Paul. Presumably Houston preferred Gasol over Amar’e? Not sure I blame them, but it had to make them think pretty hard, no? I wonder if Stern would have ruined his career over that trade too, had Houston chosen Amar’e over Gasol?

    That’s if you trust Pete Vescey.

  20. DS

    The Clips are so friggin’ stupid. Superstars are flying around; they have DeAndre, Eric Gordon, and Minny’s 2012 pick to offer and what do they do?

    Cough up $8 million in cap space to Caron Butler.

  21. Z

    Count de Pennies:

    It would be hard not to conclude that the league’s primary intent was to stall the Paul deal just long enough to compel Howard to cross the Lakers off his wishlist, thereby preventing the possibility of yet another Big-3 forming in LA.

    Yeah– you have to figure the Magic would prefer Bynum over Brook Lopez (if those are the two best offers on the table). Still, neither is a good trade for the Magic, who are actually contenders in the east as long as they have Howard.

    But, as fun as conspiracy theories are, I think it is more likely that the league is just run by a bunch of idiots. People like Dan Gilbert, who held the league hostage with the lockout only to institute rules to save owners money, only to complain that the Lakers were saving money in the Paul deal. He sounds clinically retarded in his letter.

    The problem with the league is the owners. Bleeding Gums Dolan is actually looking like a normal human being of an owner in all of this. That’s how bad it is.

  22. TDM

    Z: So the Knicks did offer Amar’e for Paul. Presumably Houston preferred Gasol over Amar’e? Not sure I blame them, but it had to make them think pretty hard, no? I wonder if Stern would have ruined his career over that trade too, had Houston chosen Amar’e over Gasol?http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/217201/Knicks_Offered_Stoudemire_To_Hornets

    Amare’s uninsurable knees were the deciding factor. If ability were the only criteria, Amare would be the choice by a mile. Pau is emotional, which at times can destroy his game. Amare is a monster and can (and did for much of last season) put an entire team on his shoulders.

  23. DS

    TDM: Amare’s uninsurable knees were the deciding factor. If ability were the only criteria, Amare would be the choice by a mile. Pau is emotional, which at times can destroy his game. Amare is a monster and can (and did for much of last season) put an entire team on his shoulders.

    Yeah, the day of Brandon Roy’s retirement at age 27 is prob. bad timing to be pitching Amar’e's uninsured knees.

  24. art vandelay

    Chandler apparently announced on dallas espn radio that he will be a Knick…so it is a done deal….curious to see where we ship turiaf and if we receive anything in return (maybe a draft pick of some sort).

  25. Count de Pennies

    Z: But, as fun as conspiracy theories are, I think it is more likely that the league is just run by a bunch of idiots

    Totally agree.

    Which is why I don’t personally believe there’s any conspiracy afoot here. An actual conspiracy would require a modicum of forethought – something I doubt this group of owners is in any way capable of doing.

    I was simply pointing out that it would be very difficult for the league to dispel any rampant conspiracy talk should they delay the Paul deal just long enough for Howard to wind up somewhere other than LA. At least now, they have the “as owners of the Hornets, we’re simply protecting our asset” argument to fall back on, spurious as it is.

    If they ultimately reverse course and allow the Paul deal to go through AFTER a Howard trade to NJ, Stern and his minions will have an even bigger PR crisis on their hands than they have now. They almost have to stand firm on the decision not to allow the Paul trade to, for no other reason, try and save even a little face.

  26. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Honestly, I can see why Hill wouldn’t want to leave the Suns doctors. They saved his career. I would be worried about going to another team with his problems, especially since the Knicks’ medical staff has had some knocks against it in recent years.

  27. DS

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    Honestly, I can see why Hill wouldn’t want to leave the Suns doctors. They saved his career. I would be worried about going to another team with his problems, especially since the Knicks’ medical staff has had some knocks against it in recent years.

    Good call.

    Plus, as far as halls of fame go, I think basketball is a pretty easy in. I think Grant with a few superstar years and being so productive following such a serious injury, he should figure he has a shot.

  28. Z-man

    Hopefully this doesn’t sound like a stupid question, but how soon could we use Tyson Chandler in a trade (for Howard?)

  29. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Hopefully this doesn’t sound like a stupid question, but how soon could we use Tyson Chandler in a trade (for Howard?)

    Right away if it is a sign and trade. Six months, I believe, otherwise.

  30. JK47

    @34

    Oh man, please tell me that is true. That would not only be the end of the Howard-to-the-Nets rumors, it would probably result in massive sanctions and the possible departure of Deron Williams.

    If this is true, and it seems very likely that it is, Prokhorov is a complete idiot.

  31. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    The more I read about the Paul veto, the more angry I get. The petulance of the owners is staggering. Essentially, here is the deal – the owners wanted to make it harder for star players to leave small market teams. Okay, fair enough. They made it harder. Then a star player left a small market team. They just negotiated the rules that allowed this to happen. How can they say that it is not allowed? They just signed the papers saying it is allowed! Yes, they made it harder, but Paul was willing to take the risk anyways. So the notion of them stopping it is so preposterous.

  32. JK47

    Wow, if the Magic are filing tampering charges, I guess that really does mean Howard to the Nets is dead. No way they trade him there now.

    DEAD.

  33. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Yeah, who in the world actually meets with the guy in public when you’re not allowed to do that. So weird. I do like that it likely nixes any chance of an Orlando/NJ deal.

  34. tastycakes

    Also, I think there’s a lot of smoke about D-Ho and the Nets but no fire. Not even the Magic are dumb enough to take Brook Lopez (who is terrible) and 2 picks for a top-5 player, right? They can DEFINITELY do better on the open market.

  35. Z

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    The more I read about the Paul veto, the more angry I get. The petulance of the owners is staggering. Essentially, here is the deal – the owners wanted to make it harder for star players to leave small market teams. Okay, fair enough. They made it harder. Then a star player left a small market team. They just negotiated the rules that allowed this to happen. How can they say that it is not allowed? They just signed the papers saying it is allowed! Yes, they made it harder, but Paul was willing to take the risk anyways. So the notion of them stopping it is so preposterous.

    Right with you, Brian. It couldn’t be more ridiculous.

    And now Prokhorov.

    The league needs to save itself from itself. Stern needs to step down and his successor needs to demand all current owners sell to buyers that can a) afford to pay their employees, and b) score above 80 on an IQ test.

  36. Z

    Re:Billups, it’s too bad, in hindsight, we picked up his option. We could have our cap space and eat it too. Oh well. Still works out well as Chandler is a major upgrade on the court over Billups, who, frankly, ruined what we had going last year when he came here and refused to try to fit the system.

  37. art vandelay

    If they had kept felton and not traded him for Billups they still would not have had the cap space to sign Chandler this year, right? I believe Felton was due to make about $7.5 million this season.

  38. TDM

    From Stern:

    “Since the NBA purchased the New Orleans Hornets, final responsibility for significant management decisions lies with the Commissioner’s Office in consultation with team chairman Jac Sperling. All decisions are made on the basis of what is in the best interests of the Hornets. In the case of the trade proposal that was made to the Hornets for Chris Paul, we decided, free from the influence of other NBA owners, that the team was better served with Chris in a Hornets uniform than by the outcome of the terms of that trade.”

  39. The Formerly-Congenial Cock Jowles, #1 Gentleman

    Z-man:
    Hopefully this doesn’t sound like a stupid question, but how soon could we use Tyson Chandler in a trade (for Howard?)

    Unless they’re being paid the same money (Chandler’s worth $12M, I’d reckon), I wouldn’t mind keeping him if it means holding onto Toney and Fields, who are both cheap and starter-quality.

  40. JK47

    I would think that Orlando filing tampering charges against the Nets is the best indication that the Nets are not in on Howard.

  41. ess-dog

    The offense was still technically top 7 even though it looked awful. But of course, Tyson will shore up the D.
    So if we DO manage a sign and trade for Tyson, we COULD turn right around and make a Tyson/Fields+parts deal with Orlando ?
    That would be unreal.

    Z:
    Re:Billups, it’s too bad, in hindsight, we picked up his option. We could have our cap space and eat it too. Oh well. Still works out well as Chandler is a major upgrade on the court over Billups, who, frankly, ruined what we had going last year when he came here and refused to try to fit the system.

  42. Ach1976

    Meddling issues aside, I really didn’t like the trade from the Hornet’s perspective. I think people are letting the outrageous manner in which this went down obscure the fact that the talent coming back to NO was simply not up to par. KMart, who as noted above is almost 29 and defensively limited, plus a few backups/role players (and yes, that’s what Odom and Scola would be on a good team) are not pieces that would either add to the value of the franchise (remember, the NBA needs to find an owner for this team) or provide something to build upon for the future. Not for a talent like Paul, and not when names like Rondo, Curry, Gordon and Bynum had been discussed.

  43. DS

    Maybe Howard will be tempted to stay now that Orlando has further mutilated its roster by sending Bass to Boston for Big Baby.

  44. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    Billups now saying through his agent that he’ll retire if he doesn’t wind up on a contender.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always had a soft spot in my heart for Billups — the Pistons being my second team — but when you take stock of his reaction to this whole thing, I’m kind of relieved we’re not going to be relying on this guy to run our offense. Just doesn’t seem like he has much in the tank, physically or emotionally.

  45. PC

    Looks like Proko and D-Howard met in Miami so they may get hit with tampering charges (that have actual merit).

    Damn – that will result in loss of draft picks and whatnot for NJ. NJ loves shooting themselves in the foot – is Proko that dumb?

  46. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Billups now saying through his agent that he’ll retire if he doesn’t wind up on a contender.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always had a soft spot in my heart for Billups — the Pistons being my second team — but when you take stock of his reaction to this whole thing, I’m kind of relieved we’re not going to be relying on this guy to run our offense. Just doesn’t seem like he has much in the tank, physically or emotionally.

    I remember being a bit wary last year of the fact that he seemed totally disinterested in changing his game at all to help Amar’e out, but I figured, hey, this guy is a legend (not only a legend, but with a great basketball IQ), surely he’ll turn it around this year.

    And then he doesn’t show up at camp on time. And now this.

    Damn.

    Although, I suppose it could be that he’s just old. I love the retirement threat. Don’t be fooled, under-the-cap teams!

  47. TDM

    What do the Knicks have to get back in a trade for Turiaf? There are rumors that Denver may take him, but his salary is $4M, so what would Denver give us? A draft pick, plus a player (maybe Koufos)?

  48. d-mar

    Assuming for the moment that things stay where they are (a huge assumption, I know) and the Knicks grab a serviceable PG, where do you think the Knicks will stand in the East? Would it be too optimistic to say we’ve vaulted over Boston and Orlando and could be fighting the Bulls for the 2nd spot?

  49. Frank O.

    If the Knicks finish the chandler deal, they could turn around and trade amare for howard and I think create a twin tower situation. I think Howard would be the PF.
    :)
    Man, now I’m losing my mind.
    chandler
    howard
    Melo
    and the rest…

  50. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Really, I think things are still way too soon to start judging how the Knicks will stand when the season starts. Lots of pieces flying around on both the Knicks and the other teams in the East. Without making another move (and without the other teams making any other moves, so Howard still on Orlando, etc.) I think the Knicks are right there with Orlando and Boston, but I wouldn’t say they are past them yet. They could, though, as those teams make moves and the Knicks add more players.

  51. massive

    I’m actually feeling good about the Baron Davis situation. We’d have some serious highlights lol.

  52. Frank O.

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    Really, I think things are still way too soon to start judging how the Knicks will stand when the season starts. Lots of pieces flying around on both the Knicks and the other teams in the East. Without making another move (and without the other teams making any other moves, so Howard still on Orlando, etc.) I think the Knicks are right there with Orlando and Boston, but I wouldn’t say they are past them yet. They could, though, as those teams make moves and the Knicks add more players.

    Knicks are a top four team in the east. I place them ahead of Orlando even if they hold onto Howard.

  53. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Extra E’s Knick tenure could be in jeopardy. I am pretty sure that they’d have to renounce all their remaining free agents to sign Chandler. That doesn’t mean they can’t then re-sign Extra E, they just wouldn’t be able to give him anything but the minimum (or whatever – the vet exception, whatever is available to a capped out team who wants to sign another player). That does not mean that they can’ t get him for one of those exceptions, of course. It just isn’t as clear as when they held his rights. Derrick Brown, though, is almost certainly a goner. Likely Bill Walker, too.

  54. BigBlueAL

    With Chandler I now honestly believe the Knicks could win the Atlantic Division, especially considering the schedule and age of the Celtics I dont see them having a great regular season but still would fear them in a playoff series.

  55. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Sure, they definitely could be better than the Celtics this year. There’s just a lot of time left in the offseason. Too soon to be sure.

  56. JK47

    Also, I read somewhere that if you amnesty a player, you cannot use the MLE that same year, which would hurt our ability to bring in another decent free agent. Does anybody know if this is true?

  57. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    One of the problems is that the new CBA is so new that the rules aren’t totally clear to everyone yet. I’ve yet to see an actual copy of the agreement. I’d love to read it so that I knew what was what. For instance, the whole “players can re-negotiate their salaries downward” clause showed up at the last second without anyone discussing it before. So who knows for sure what the rules are?

  58. TDM

    JK47: Also, I read somewhere that if you amnesty a player, you cannot use the MLE that same year, which would hurt our ability to bring in another decent free agent. Does anybody know if this is true?

    That’s why the Knicks lost out on Hill. We couldn’t give him the MLE.

  59. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Where does it say that in the CBA? Where did you guys hear that that is the case? The proposed deal said nothing about that (but, again, lots of other things have changed since then, like congract re-negotiating being allowed), so I am a bit wary of believing it.

  60. art vandelay

    Wouldn’t they have that new “room” exception for $2.5 million as technically after amnestying Billups they became a “cap space team”?????

  61. d-mar

    Count de Pennies:
    Brandon Roy to announce retirement from the NBA for “medical reasons.”

    Saw that, really sad. I think healthy he’s right up there with CP3 and D-Will as a top PG in this league.

  62. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    NBA salary cap rules make about as much sense as Dianetics.

    What kills me is that the info is not even out there. I hate the idea of discussing stuff from positions of general ignorance, but that’s where we are in this situation, since it seems like all of the rules are, like, hearsay.

  63. Mike Kurylo

    Z: The league needs to save itself from itself. Stern needs to step down and his successor needs to demand all current owners sell to buyers that can a) afford to pay their employees, and b) score above 80 on an IQ test.

    You realize are limiting yourself to a very small number of humans on this planet.

  64. TDM

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): Where does it say that in the CBA? Where did you guys hear that that is the case? The proposed deal said nothing about that (but, again, lots of other things have changed since then, like congract re-negotiating being allowed), so I am a bit wary of believing it.

    I read it somewhere, which could mean anything. At any rate, I believe it was the Knicks that pumped the brakes on the deal. It makes no sense to me that a guy like Hill (lots of money in the bank, decreasing skill level, great potential for network position) would go back to a team going nowhere fast and say he chose PHX because of their medical staff. I don’t buy it.

    As far as the CBA – here a memo from Billy Hunter detailing the specifics. I didn’t see any mention that the MLE would be lost by exercising the amnesty provision, however, it is just a memo.

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_JqVMjKAfLYYjJiZmE4YTMtM2JhNy00ZjdlLTgzNGYtZTkyOTFlODI4ZWY0&hl=en_US

  65. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Looking over the memo Billy Hunter sent to the players [EDITED TO ADD: Which Todd then just posted right before me], I don’t see anything in it that suggests that using the Amnesty Rule keeps you from using the MLE.

    •Player Waiver: Each team permitted to waive one (1) player over the course of the CBA prior to any season (only for contracts in place at the inception of the Agreement).
    •Salary Cap treatment: 100% of the waived player’s salary removed from eam Salary for Cap and Tax purposes.
    •Waiver Process: Modified waiver process for players waived pursuant to the Amnesty rule. Teams with Room under the Salary Cap can submit competing offers to assume some, but not all, of the player’s remaining contract. Team making the highest offer receives the waived contract. If a player’s contract is claimed in this manner, the remaining portion of the player’s salary will continue to be paid by the team that waived him.

  66. art vandelay

    I don’t think they will lose the MLE because of execution of the amnesty provision in this case by itself, but rather because teams that have cap space are no longer eligible for the $5M MLE. By amnestying Billups they go from capped out to under the cap, and as a cap team cannot use the MLE. Instead, my understanding is that they will have the $2.5 million “room” exception. I may be wrong, though.

  67. bobneptune

    TDM:
    What do the Knicks have to get back in a trade for Turiaf?There are rumors that Denver may take him, but his salary is $4M, so what would Denver give us?A draft pick, plus a player (maybe Koufos)?

    They would likely give the Knicks nothing and accept 3M of dolan’s $$$ as a fee for freeing cap space for the Knicks

  68. Z

    TDM: Amare’s uninsurable knees were the deciding factor.If ability were the only criteria, Amare would be the choice by a mile.Pau is emotional, which at times can destroy his game.Amare is a monster and can (and did for much of last season) put an entire team on his shoulders.

    Not sure we can say for sure why it was Gasol over Amar’e. Gasol is arguably the better player. Houston spent the last decade building around Yao, so they may have preferred a more traditional C. Plus, Amar’e showed last year how much he benefits playing with a top-notch PG which the Rockets don’t have. Gasol has done fine in his career with Lowrey/Flynn type PGS.

    TDM:
    From Stern:

    “Since the NBA purchased the New Orleans Hornets…All decisions are made on the basis of what is in the best interests of the Hornets. In the case of the trade proposal that was made to the Hornets for Chris Paul, we decided, free from the influence of other NBA owners, that the team was better served with Chris in a Hornets uniform than by the outcome of the terms of that trade.”

    Perhaps because they were dealing to conference rivals? (We can hope, right?)

  69. ess-dog

    Looks like Arenas got the amnesty axe as expected. I sure as hell hope we don’t go after him. The Bass/Big Baby trade was nice for the Celts and proves yet again that Orlando is ridonkulous. Howard needs to get the hell out of there fast.
    It seems like everyone wants NY/LA, for obvious monetary reasons. How could the Clips botch this offseason so badly? Caron Freakin’ Butler??? I guess that’s why CP3 doesn’t want to sign there, unlike the Lakers org. Maybe the Lakers can re-work the deal with a different team than Houston?
    I have to say, NYK’s front office is starting to look, dare I say, smart?

  70. BigBlueAL

    Knicks only practicing with 7 players today: Melo, Amar’e, Balkman, Douglas, Rautins, Walker and Fields. Jeffries and the rookies cant practice because they technically havent been signed yet, apparently they have to get the Chandler deal done first.

    Also Yahoo reporting the Knicks are working on a deal to re-sign Shawne but other teams still trying to sign him away from the Knicks.

  71. bobneptune

    Frank O.:
    If the Knicks finish the chandler deal, they could turn around and trade amare for howard and I think create a twin tower situation. I think Howard would be the PF.
    :)
    Man, now I’m losing my mind.
    chandler
    howard
    Melo
    and the rest…

    Frank O.:
    If the Knicks finish the chandler deal, they could turn around and trade amare for howard and I think create a twin tower situation. I think Howard would be the PF.
    :)
    Man, now I’m losing my mind.
    chandler
    howard
    Melo
    and the rest…

    no chance Orl takes amar’e and his 83 million uninsurable dollars.

    they want a) someone with cap space to take the stiff hedo’s 35 M the next 3 yrs, b) young , cheap, allstar quality player(s) and c) draft picks.

    think GS after they dump biedrens if Howard will agree to extend

  72. d-mar

    Z: Can’t see why Atlanta would waste their “get-out-of-Joe-Johnson’s-contract-free” card on the expiring contract of a guy that is still useful. (I’m not an insider so I didn’t read the story. Sounds like poor reporting, though).

    Speaking of Joe Johnson, you know the old adage the best deals are sometimes the ones you don’t make? Can you imagine if we had signed Johnson instead of Amare how different last year would have been?

  73. art vandelay

    They would never have signed Joe Johnson instead of Amare…plan was originally if you all recall to team him with amare like in the old phoenix days…or try to convince him to join a trio of amare, lebron and Joe Johnson…

    After Lebron passed on them they were still hoping to team up those two, but THANKFULLY Joe Johnson passed to remain in atlanta for more loot.

  74. Spree8nyk8

    mase:
    now that we have Chandler, can we balk on the Jeffries deal?

    Why would we? It’s a min contract, and I’m pretty sure at some point in the season that Chandler guy might need to go to the bench. Be nice if there was another guy to go into the game.

  75. d-mar

    @99 You’re right, I forget about that plan. Either way, I’m glad he and his contract are in Atlanta.

  76. TDM

    Not a huge concern, but what does this mean for Jerome Jordan and Jorts? I’d love to see at least one of them signed by the team for depth at the 5.

  77. Z

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    Extra E’s Knick tenure could be in jeopardy. I am pretty sure that they’d have to renounce all their remaining free agents to sign Chandler. Derrick Brown, though, is almost certainly a goner. Likely Bill Walker, too.

    Walker is under contract.

  78. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Walker is under contract.

    Oh good, I thought they had an option on him. Thanks!

  79. donny

    Not thrilled with this trade. We just threw away all optionality day one of free agency. I’ve read outside chance Hornets amnesty Okeafor. What makes Chandler worth 15mm per yr (I think he is arguably overrated from one great playoff run) and Emeka incredibly overpriced at 13mm. I think we should have waited for potential bargains and bult a deeper team. Don’t get me wrong, I think a defensive minded big man is a huge addition. But we just lost our best shooter and all optionality in free agency plus our chance at CP3 (barring a trade of one of our big 3) for a big man that ‘may’ be worth the price we just paid.

  80. PC

    Can someone please show me a report stating that Amare was actually offered to the Hornets for Paul? I have yet to see any proof of it and I recall seeing reports that Amare was not offered.

  81. Frank

    I’m feeling some anxiety about our ability to trade Turiaf. Why wouldn’t other teams make ridiculous demands knowing that they have us over a barrel (ie. the Jefferies trade to Houston)? Just makes me nervous that nothing has come out yet re: a trade partner.

  82. Frank

    PC:
    Can someone please show me a report stating that Amare was actually offered to the Hornets for Paul? I have yet to see any proof of it and I recall seeing reports that Amare was not offered.

    There is no report. Peter Vecsey is the only one who wrote it, and I wouldn’t trust anything he writes.

  83. art vandelay

    I agree regarding the Turiaf anxiety…I think I mentioned this yesterday that I feared teams would have added leverage knowing we needed to dump turiaf in order to make room for Chandler….hope we don’t have to lose yet another asset like Shumpert to pull this off.

  84. art vandelay

    Though Beck did report this morning that Knicks had about 5 different possible Turiaf trade scenarios in play…of course, the nature of these options has not been reported as of yet.

  85. PC

    Thanks. That is what I thought. People are still arguing whether Amare is a good deal/blah blah.

    I am thrilled the Knicks didn’t dangle Amare – he would be pissed and that’s all we friggin need.

    Imagine if we traded him and it got vetoed by Stern…..

  86. art vandelay

    I think this pretty much confirms they don’t have the full MLE for $5M after becoming a cap team post-billups amnesty, but only have the room exception for $2.5 M:

    Frank Isola: Grant Hill was upset over Knicks one-year, 2.5 million offer, according to a source. Was ready to come to NY until being low balled

  87. art vandelay

    WojYahooNBA:
    New Orleans, Houston and Lakers are re-engaged in talks to find a new way to complete Chris Paul blockbuster trade, league sources tell Y!

  88. Spree8nyk8

    I don’t think the Turiaf deal will be a problem, there are a few teams out there that have to get to the minimum cap. With NY offering Turiaf whose only got one year left and kicking in 3m that’s basically a free Ronny. Someone is gonna take that.

  89. Robert Silverman

    PC:
    Can someone please show me a report stating that Amare was actually offered to the Hornets for Paul? I have yet to see any proof of it and I recall seeing reports that Amare was not offered.

    He wasn’t “offered.” It was more of Peter Vescey’s fact-free BS.

    They did call NO to gauge their interest in an Amar’e-CP3 swap, but no actual offer was ever made.

  90. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I think this pretty much confirms they don’t have the full MLE for $5M after becoming a cap team post-billups amnesty, but only have the room exception for $2.5 M:

    Yeah, I agree that they don’t have the MLE, just not because of the Amnesty, but because of what you mentioned earlier about them being below the cap.

  91. art vandelay

    Does Minnesota have any semblance of cap space? I could see Kahn helping out the Knicks again…he seems to enjoy capitalizing off of capped out teams’ need to unload useful players (e.g. Beasley trade with Miami, Anthony Randolph trade with Knicks last year)…and he has the relationship with Donnie Walsh.

  92. art vandelay

    Just looked it up….Minnesota has about $10 Million in cap space with 13 players under contract….I think they have rookies to sign, though….like Williams, so maybe they won[t have a roster spot for turiaf unless they send us someone…should we even consider an expanded trade with them to acquire Ridnour? They have Rubio now, he seems somewhat superfluous to them, and he is excellent in PNR and would be good with Amare…his defense is another story, however.

  93. Z

    art vandelay:
    WojYahooNBA:
    New Orleans, Houston and Lakers are re-engaged in talks to find a new way to complete Chris Paul blockbuster trade, league sources tell Y!

    Odom arrived at Laker practice, met with Kupchak, then left.

    I think it’s safe to say the trade will happen. Stern just needs to wait a day or so to save face (ie, fabricate a logical explanation)

  94. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    “The Lakers sent the Hornets a conditional second round pick, that changed the whole thing! Now the trade is awesome! Approved!”

  95. Count de Pennies

    Who’s to say how this whole CP3 trade mess plays out in the end.

    If this is really a stand by the small market clubs to prevent the Lakers from assembling another Big 3, it’s quite possible that the deal is dead in the water unless the Lakers sweeten the pot with Bynum.

    Any deal for CP3 that included Bynum would make it very difficult for LA to be players in a trade for Howard this year. Plus, if the Hornets wound up with a younger player like Bynum, it would be much easier for the league to sell the idea that the new, improved deal did a better job of protecting the asset and will make the team more attractive to a prospective buyer.

  96. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    No, just poking a little fun at the inevitable justification Stern will use to approve the revised deal.

  97. bob cook

    Like many of us, I thought Dolan gave up too much for Melo. But lookee here, Chandler’s rather a gem. Does he sign with us if we don’t look like winners? So what I’m saying is that the Melo deal must be looked at in the context of attracting additional pieces of the puzzle. I think we’ll have way more fun watching TV this year. Defense! Rebounding! And it’s not hard to see where scoring will come from. If Fields finds his place and improves, say at the rate of David Lee, we could be monsters.

  98. Z

    art vandelay:
    Does Minnesota have any semblance of cap space? I could see Kahn helping out the Knicks again…he seems to enjoy capitalizing off of capped out teams’ need to unload useful players (e.g. Beasley trade with Miami, Anthony Randolph trade with Knicks last year)…and he has the relationship with Donnie Walsh.

    The Kings are $20 million under the floor. They have 5 spots to fill.

    Same with the Nuggets, but their situation is complicated by the fact that half their roster is sitting in a Guizhou prison. (Are they required to reach the salary floor while their restricted FAs are detained??)

    Indiana, the Griz, NJ, Washington, and, wait for it… the Hornets(!) are all under floor enough to take Turiaf for nothing.

    Keep in mind, also, that Turiaf is not only a serviceable player at a reasonable contract, but he also, without a doubt the coolest human being to even pick up a basketball. All these teams should pay us big time for the honor of traveling with him on their team plane.

  99. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Keep in mind, also, that Turiaf is not only a serviceable player at a reasonable contract, but he also, without a doubt the coolest human being to even pick up a basketball. All these teams should pay us big time for the honor of traveling with him on their team plane.

    I had to let my wife down easily that “Beardy” is leaving the team.

    Hopefully, Baron Davis can join the team so she will have someone new to root for. Well, obviously Landry is everybody’s sweetheart, so I guess there’s that. TDDWTDD is also fun.

  100. art vandelay

    I never thought a) Toney Douglas would be the team’s most tenured player at this point and b) Toney Douglas would possibly be the team’s game 1 starting point guard! haha

  101. Z

    btw, it seems as if the amnesty provision shouldn’t be used much this year. Only a few teams over the tax line. The Lakers, Magic, Spurs and Celtics. That’s why Arenas was dumped. And Jefferson probably will be too.

    Because of the minimum team salary, there is no incentive to pay guys not to play unless there is a specific player you want to bring in (ie Billups). Guys like Bargiani, Okafor, Rashard Lewis would leave gaping roster holes.

  102. max fisher-cohen

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): Yeah, I agree that they don’t have the MLE, just not because of the Amnesty, but because of what you mentioned earlier about them being below the cap.

    I’m done trying to figure out who has access to the MLE, so I’ll just leave this here and let you all interpret it:

    Every team can use the full mid-level exception, provided doing so does not take the team more than $4 million over the tax line [i.e. $74 million in salary].

    source

  103. Z

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    What do you think about Baron Davis, though? Think he’ll get the axe?

    Waiving Davis would get Cleveland under the cap, if they want to use their exceptions; however, I don’t really see the purpose because who would they get to take their FA money?

  104. art vandelay

    Gilbert is clearly a big baby…I think he won’t amnesty him for fear he winds up in Miami….or really any big market team like the Knicks…I also hope billups doesn’t wind up in Miami.

  105. art vandelay

    Rip Hamilton bought out by Pistons….not an amnesty casualty…straight buy-out….probably chicago-bound, no?

  106. Z

    Maybe the Mavs will waive Haywood or Marion, but I don’t think there is a rush. Probably by next July to go after FAs.

    (looks like Rip Hamilton is being bought out, but not amnestied)

  107. Robert Silverman

    Today’s signings have made me seriously re-evaluate the Melo trade and coupled w/the fact that Denver traded Felton for Andre Miller and has probably lost Wilson Chandler.

    Look at it now:

    NY got – Carmelo Anthony, Tyson Chandler

    NY sent – Gallo, Miller, Mozgov, Anthony Randolph, Eddy Curry.

    I mean, that’s a deal we’d all do in a heartbeat, right? One blue-chip prospect and a couple of white chips plus cap fodder for a top-five (Howard, Noah & Pau Gasol, are the only ones who are clearly better) center and the best pure scorer this side of Kobe. (I’ll have the Shiraz w/my side of Kobe, please)

    I’m tickled chartreuse.

  108. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Why has Denver lost Chandler? He’s a restricted free agent whenever he returns to the NBA. If they want him, they can have him.

  109. bobneptune

    Frank: There is no report. Peter Vecsey is the only one who wrote it, and I wouldn’t trust anything he writes.

    Adrian Wojnarowski said on WFAN this morning he independently confirmed the Knicks discussed amar’e = paul and NO had zero interest. I don’t know how he confirmed that, but that is what he said.

  110. art vandelay

    Marc J. Spears: Knicks free agent forward Derrick Brown signs a 1-year minimum deal with Charlotte Bobcats, source tells @YahooSports.

  111. Frank O.

    Robert Silverman:
    Today’s signings have made me seriously re-evaluate the Melo trade and coupled w/the fact that Denver traded Felton for Andre Miller and has probably lost Wilson Chandler.

    Look at it now:

    NY got – Carmelo Anthony, Tyson Chandler

    NY sent – Gallo, Miller, Mozgov, Anthony Randolph, Eddy Curry.

    I mean, that’s a deal we’d all do in a heartbeat, right? One blue-chip prospect and a couple of white chips plus cap fodder for a top-five (Howard, Noah & Pau Gasol, are the only ones who are clearly better) center and the best pure scorer this side of Kobe. (I’ll have the Shiraz w/my side of Kobe, please)

    I’m tickled chartreuse.

    Well put, as usual

  112. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I’m happy with the Knicks team, so I don’t feel like looking back on the Melo trade. I don’t want to argue about the Melo trade anymore, but I will argue the other side if people want to keep arguing about it. Would I rather have Felton, Wilson Chandler, Gallo, Randolph, Mozgov, Golden State’s next two second rounders, the Knicks’ 2014 first rounder and the full rights to the Knicks’ 2016 first rounder on the team right now instead of Melo? Yes, yes I would. But whatever, it’s not like this team is bad. They have a good team. So why even get into the arguments? Let’s just enjoy what we have as Knicks fans, which is a good team.

  113. Robert Silverman

    bobneptune: Adrian Wojnarowski said on WFAN this morning he independently confirmed the Knicks discussed amar’e = paul and NO had zero interest. I don’t know how he confirmed that, but that is what he said.

    It’s the difference between ‘discussed’ and actually made a trade offer. That’s what makes the Vescey column BS.

  114. Ben R

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    I’m happy with the Knicks team, so I don’t feel like looking back on the Melo trade. I don’t want to argue about the Melo trade anymore, but I will argue the other side if people want to keep arguing about it.Would I rather have Felton, Wilson Chandler, Gallo, Randolph, Mozgov, Golden State’s next two second rounders, the Knicks’ 2014 first rounder and the full rights to the Knicks’ 2016 first rounder on the team right now instead of Melo? Yes, yes I would. But whatever, it’s not like this team is bad. They have a good team. So why even get into the arguments? Let’s just enjoy what we have as Knicks fans, which is a good team.

    Yes, 100%

  115. Robert Silverman

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    I’m happy with the Knicks team, so I don’t feel like looking back on the Melo trade. I don’t want to argue about the Melo trade anymore, but I will argue the other side if people want to keep arguing about it.Would I rather have Felton, Wilson Chandler, Gallo, Randolph, Mozgov, Golden State’s next two second rounders, the Knicks’ 2014 first rounder and the full rights to the Knicks’ 2016 first rounder on the team right now instead of Melo? Yes, yes I would. But whatever, it’s not like this team is bad. They have a good team. So why even get into the arguments? Let’s just enjoy what we have as Knicks fans, which is a good team.

    I’ll avoid escalating this into a speculative “what might have happened” game, (which is odd, since I fired the first shot) but I beg to differ.

  116. daJudge

    I think we have a really good team that has the chance of being special. We have a top scorer, an excellent power forward and a very good center who fits the bill at the other end of the court. We need a decent point guard and good scrappy role players. I know this is a stat site, but it is hard to define scrappy because part of it is attitude, but I know it when I see it. Sometimes stars are overvalued and do do not bring that quality to the table. I would love to see Melo and Amare bring this a bit more as well. I would love to see more scrap than swag. When talent overachieves it is really something to see.

  117. Z-man

    Dudes, I am gonna pull a Broadway Joe here and say: Y’all are gonna dig Shump and be glad we didn’t part with him–I guarantee it.

    Chandler, Stat, Melo, Shump…better reinforce the rim at the Mecca!

  118. chastrio

    @145 I think Tyson will bring both of those to the table and rub off on the team. In my opinion, Dallas was a softer team overall without him.

  119. Z-man

    One thing that this whole lockout has done is take the spotlight completemy off the rookie crop; when is the last time anyone mentioned Jimmer, Kemba or Kyrie? Not to mention Shump vs. Faried, Singleton, Selby etc.

  120. d-mar

    Hollinger tweet:

    “We’re now at 36 hours without even a sniff of a rumor of where Turiaf might go. Have to wonder if this Chandler deal is in trouble.”

    If you substitute the words “hope that” for “wonder if” you have more of the typical ESPN anti-Knick sentiment.

  121. Spree8nyk8

    I think we also have 2 young players with fairly high ceilings in Fields and possibly Shump. I mean of course it remains to be seen but right now I think we are pretty set at the 2-5, and honestly, if they give Toney a shot at the point I’m not gonna be too bummed about it. I mean he played the whole season with a torn shoulder and I think did a pretty good job and while he hasn’t always been consistent when he was put into that role, I do think that he would be more consistent with consistent mins. I think that his role was constantly evolving last year, he had to be a scorer here, and a distributer here, penetrator here. I think that while he may not be the long term solution, he would at least be worth giving a look to. We may not have much of a choice really but I think that we are going to be a much improved team this year and I think the value of having both eyes pointed forward from here on out is going to be huge. And by that I just mean that there has been so many distractions over the last 2 offseasons that for them to finally be able to know “this is what we are going with”, we aren’t likely to be doing any seismic level changes. People can stop looking over their shoulder and just worry about basketball. I mean they were pretty good last year with a world of distractions, I’m really excited to see what happens from here.

  122. Spree8nyk8

    johnhollinger John Hollinger
    We’re now at 36 hours without even a sniff of a rumor of where Turiaf might go. Have to wonder if this Chandler deal is in trouble.

  123. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Hollinger tweet:

    “We’re now at 36 hours without even a sniff of a rumor of where Turiaf might go. Have to wonder if this Chandler deal is in trouble.”

    If you substitute the words “hope that” for “wonder if” you have more of the typical ESPN anti-Knick sentiment.

    Bill Simmons did mention something interesting on his podcast the other day. Because of modern social media, teams can’t keep possible deals secret anymore. So the Chandler deal, for instance, likely would have all taken place and gotten finished before we even knew the Knicks were interested in signing him. Billups would have been spun off somewhere and Turiaf would have been dealt for a pick. But once the news broke, teams were not nearly as accomodating, because they suddenly knew that the Knicks were, if not desperate, at least extremely inclined to do a deal. And I bet the Turiaf trades suddenly got a bit more difficult.

  124. chastrio

    @149 & 151
    You have to wonder if the Knicks just aren’t looking into what all is out there more? Perhaps they are looking into another deal to package RT with? I find it highly unrealistic teams would not take RT plus 3 mil. Only option I find plausible for the delay is teams asking if the Knicks will throw in something else because of their previous history of making terrible deals…

  125. Ben R

    I know that Dallas is not really interested in Billups but if we could sweeten it a bit, so it was a S&T for Chandler rather than having to use the amnesty on Billups, we could then keep Turiaf, correct?

  126. ess-dog

    So D’Antoni trusts TD at point and thinks Melo will play like Bird. This sort of worries me.
    Meanwhile, I’m thinking Rautins finally gets some tick this year due to circumstances.

  127. Frank

    “@ESPNSteinLine: Hearing Tyson Chandler’s deal w/Knicks WILL end up as sign-and-trade w/Mavs, but Dallas will take back TBA low-salaried player Knicks choose”

    Interesting…

  128. Frank

    Very interesting. Because that means we won’t be amnestying Billups, which means we have the MLE again (not to mention injury insurance with the amnesty that WASN’T used on Billups). Please let this be true. I’d actually give up Fields to gain all that extra flexibility.

  129. Ben R

    I think that running the offense through Melo makes a lot of sense. He is going to dominate the ball regardless so by giving him distribution duties maybe it will open him up to spreading it around more.

    I think people are a bit too hard on TD when it comes to running the offense. He upped his assists per 36 from 3.7 to 4.5 last year (as a combo guard) and in the 9 games he started during the regular he averaged 7 assists per 36. People have to remember he was quite hurt for much of last year and was in pretty rough shape during the playoffs. I think Toney will surprise a lot of people this year and would much rather have him starting than Baron Davis, Jamaal Tinsley or whatever other PG we pull off the scrap heap. In fact I actually think Douglas is a step up over Billups because of his defense.

  130. Ben R

    Frank:
    Very interesting. Because that means we won’t be amnestying Billups, which means we have the MLE again (not to mention injury insurance with the amnesty that WASN’T used on Billups). Please let this be true. I’d actually give up Fields to gain all that extra flexibility.

    I don’t think I’d give away Fields but it is great news and it also means we get to keep Turiaf right?

  131. Spree8nyk8

    Frank:
    Very interesting. Because that means we won’t be amnestying Billups, which means we have the MLE again (not to mention injury insurance with the amnesty that WASN’T used on Billups). Please let this be true. I’d actually give up Fields to gain all that extra flexibility.

    Ummm we are definitely amnestying billups, Dallas is only doing this to create a trade exception.

  132. Frank

    Never mind. Sounds like Dallas wants to do this to get a trade exception, not Billups, so we would still have to amnesty Billups. I have a bad feeling about this. The only low salaried players we have that Dallas might want are TD, Fields, and Shumpert. I hope it’s Fields just based on our needs at the point-

  133. Jake S.

    Good point, Ben R. As dreadful a rebounder as Turiaf is, we need all the front court depth we can get. This compressed schedule is going to be brutal on STAT and Chandler, both of whom are susceptible to injury.

    As far as the point guard question is concerned, I can’t help but feel that Baron Davis would be a better option than Toney. I know he’s a clumsy fit with this offense–he demands the ball and he’s a poor outside shooter. But when motivated, B Diddy is as good as they come. Maybe I’m being naive, but I feel like New York is the kind of town that would bring the best out of him.

  134. Spree8nyk8

    Ben R: I don’t think I’d give away Fields but it is great news and it also means we get to keep Turiaf right?

    Who would we include other than Turiaf? Turiaf is the obvious choice, you can’t give up a guard, walker doesn’t make enough, and I don’t think jeffries does either. I guess it could be Balkman. Actually I hope thats what it is.

  135. Spree8nyk8

    That tweet by the way did say “that the knicks would pick”, So I seriously doubt it’s going to be fields.

  136. Spree8nyk8

    I sure would think it would be. I mean he makes the most out of them and means the least. Balkman/Rautins

  137. Spree8nyk8

    Trade exceptions these days are typically worthless though, seems like so many teams have them and can’t use them. I mean nobody is really trying to dump salary bc of the minimum salary and the amnesty. But I guess you get it just in case. I mean if it’s basically free why not.

  138. ess-dog

    Oh I like the idea of TD stepping up to start. I think he can be close to as good as Ray was, with a bit less passing acumen and better shooting. I think he’ll need a safety net behind him, a Tinsley type, but I think he’ll do ok.
    But asking Melo to do something he’s never done and THAT will be the focus of the offense makes me uncomfortable. Do you recall a lot of brilliant Melo-to-Stat passes last year? Yeah, me either.

    Ben R:
    I think that running the offense through Melo makes a lot of sense. He is going to dominate the ball regardless so by giving him distribution duties maybe it will open him up to spreading it around more.

    I think people are a bit too hard on TD when it comes to running the offense. He upped his assists per 36 from 3.7 to 4.5 last year (as a combo guard) and in the 9 games he started during the regular he averaged 7 assists per 36. People have to remember he was quite hurt for much of last year and was in pretty rough shape during the playoffs. I think Toney will surprise a lot of people this year and would much rather have him starting than Baron Davis, Jamaal Tinsley or whatever other PG we pull off the scrap heap. In fact I actually think Douglas is a step up over Billups because of his defense.

  139. Will the Thrill

    Why in the world would the Knicks want Bibby? I can see us going after Davis, but Bibby seems to bring nothing to the table that Toney doesn’t already bring.

  140. art vandelay

    I agree…and I hope the player they send Dallas will be Balkman….if not, I guess Rautins….so when the mechanics of all this are worked out, I can’t imagine they would wind up with the full MLE of $5 million….otherwise, wouldn’t they have offered that to Grant Hill earlier?

  141. Spree8nyk8

    art vandelay:
    I agree…and I hope the player they send Dallas will be Balkman….if not, I guess Rautins….so when the mechanics of all this are worked out, I can’t imagine they would wind up with the full MLE of $5 million….otherwise, wouldn’t they have offered that to Grant Hill earlier?

    They don’t have an MLE because they amnestied chauncey

  142. daJudge

    I do not like the idea of running the offense through Melo at all. IMO, it is almost irrational given the fact that Melo is such a pure and lethal scorer (albeit inefficient at times CJ). Remember what happened when Don Nelson asked Anthony Mason to be a point forward? He was an awesome power forward, but not so much at point forward. It sucked bad and Coach was fired after 1/4 of the season. Melo would be more inefficient if shoe horned into a point forward role and required to consider too many variables. I’d even rather see him as a 2 and playing Extra E as small forward. I’m totally fine with TD running the offense at this point. He’s young, eager and he will learn how to dump the ball off to the Center, cut , etc…. Hey, anyone remember Ed Sherrod and Patrick? We will be fine with TD. I think he will continue to improve his point guard skills within this seriously talented offense. Why can’t we just let players play their proper roles? Please.

  143. art vandelay

    ah, I thought the fact that it was a S&T meant they didn’t have to amnesty Billups…the only real advantage then is that they hang onto Turiaf this way???

  144. art vandelay

    uh, man…if they sign bibby I hope it is strictly for PG depth…to play the anthony carter role, or maybe just to have another 3-point shooter..and not to be the starting PG over TD.

  145. Spree8nyk8

    I think the were having trouble finding a suitor for Turiaf, and Dallas gets a trade exception this way.

  146. bobneptune

    BigBlueAL:
    Rumors on Twitter that the Knicks are in serious negotiations with Mike Bibby.

    Isn’t having a serious negotiation about mike bibby somewhat oxymoronic?

    20 playoff games last year : 28.1% from the floor, .373 ts% and a nice crisp 3.6 per

  147. ess-dog

    Re: Bibby, he does shoot the 3 quite well, which will really help if we don’t get Shawne back. He can also give us all the Heatles’ game plans lol.
    I’m hoping he will reprise the role that Mason Jr. has just left vacant.

  148. art vandelay

    Marc Berman: According to source, #Knicks finalizing trade for Ronny Turiaf to Wizards tnt which will create enough cap space to make Chandler official.

  149. Spree8nyk8

    Frank:
    So after all this will we have anything to offer FAs other than the vet’s minimum?Room exception?

    We have an awesome round locker room

  150. art vandelay

    Yannis Koutroupis: Was just told by a source that the Miami HEAT are at the top of Chauncy Billups’ wish list if he clears waivers after being amnestied.

  151. art vandelay

    I think they should have the $2.5 Million “room” exception but haven’t seen that confirmed yet.

  152. Frank

    art vandelay:
    Yannis Koutroupis: Was just told by a source that the Miami HEAT are at the top of Chauncy Billups’ wish list if he clears waivers after being amnestied.

    No way he clears waivers. At the very least a team like the clippers would pick him up. Or even Denver. They can offer him $10 and still get him theoretically. No chance he gets to Miami this year.

  153. art vandelay

    Just looking at Knicks’ cap situation using salaries from hoopshype, pre-chandler acquisition Knicks had approx. $60.6 Million in committed salaries for the 2011-2012 season.

    http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

    Subtracting Billups’ $14.2 Million, Turiaf’s $4.4 Million and Derrick Brown’s $1.1 Million, plus adding in Tyson Chandler’s roughly $14.5 Million brings our total payroll for the season to, by my estimation around $55.5 Million, or $2.5 Million under salary cap. But then they must pay the rookies Jorts and Shumpert, so I think they will basically just have that room exception of $2.5 M plus any additional cap space left over…maybe $1 million or so…for total of perhaps $2.5 M to $4 M.

  154. grkdiesel1

    I love the Chandler aquisition but hate losing Billups to the amnesti provision. I believe its better to hold on to that chip for the future and see whether it may be better for the Knicks to try to shed Turiaf’s contract and keep Billups, which I know would require paying a luxury tax, but the Knicks have been paying astronomical team payrolls with garbage teams, why not pay with an elite team so you can have Billups, a true leader at the point , “Mr Big Shot”, to compliment our tremendous front court, especially since there is no other really great point guard for the taking.

  155. art vandelay

    alanhahn: #Knicks will have the new half MLE ($2.5M/3 years) to use if they so desire to add another player, or go with vet mins. #fb

  156. art vandelay

    oh, well…

    Sam Amick: Source says Mike Bibby is flying to New York in the morning with the intention of signing with the Knicks.

  157. Z

    grkdiesel1:
    I…hate losing Billups to the amnesti provision.I believe its better to hold on to that chip for the future.

    I think that there is too much being made of the amnesty provision. I wouldn’t be surprised if half of the teams in the league never even use theirs. In the Knicks’ case there is no need to hold onto it. Even if Amar’e blows out his knee in 2013 while taping a guest appearance on Dancing With The Stars, we’ll probably be too far over the cap by then to make it even worth erasing his contract. It’s not like we could just free up $20 million to spend on some other superstar.

    The amnesty provision is mostly for teams to get under the tax line, which we are not at, and even if we were, as fans it’s Dolan’s money not ours that goes up in smoke, so I don’t see any use in lamenting the loss of the amnesty chip (especially since it is bringing in a really really good player that we desperately need now).

  158. JK47

    His defense stinks and he’s not that great a passer, but Bibby did shoot .440 from beyond the arc last season. We don’t have very many pure 3-point bombers on the team so he does fill a need. Not a terrible pickup if it’s at the vet minimum.

  159. grkdiesel1

    Z…I agree with you. I was suggesting that since Dolan has been burning his money on astronomical team payrolls on absolute garbage knicks teams over the last 10 years, why not pay a luxury tax and keep billups for this year since we need a point guard and Billups is the best of the bunch available right now?

  160. Z

    grkdiesel1:
    Z…I agree with you.I was suggesting that since Dolan has been burning his money on astronomical team payrolls on absolute garbage knicks teams over the last 10 years, why not pay a luxury tax and keep billups for this year since we need a point guard and Billups is the best of the bunch available right now?

    Because Chandler is a better player and fills a bigger need. The Knicks can’t have Chandler AND Billups. They need to dump Billups to get under the cap so they can sign Chandler.

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