Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, July 29, 2014

Unhappy With The Rose Trade?

Reports on the Jalen Rose trade that you won’t read in any paper (because they aren’t true).

Isiah Thomas was so impressed with the Raptors performance against his team, that he had to acquire one of their players. With Toronto beating New York, 104-90, the Knicks decided to grab one of their opponents. “They were just awesome,” the Knicks president declared. “I figure I had to have one of them.” When told the Raptors were 17-30, Thomas shot back “Hey! then it makes sense to trade one of our players for one of theirs, since we’re only 14-31.”

OR

Knicks acquire Rose, by accident. Thomas laughs with that impish grin he’s so famous for. “I really didn’t mean to acquire a player,” he begins to tell the story. “Well I’ve had some problems with my wife, the players in the room will understand (Thomas nods & winks at Clyde). So anyway I figure Valentine’s day is just around the corner. I’m looking through my little black address book to make things right with the little lady, and I thought I dialed ‘Terry’s flowers.’ Then I ask the guy how much roses are, and he tells me something like $31M over 2 years. I figure that seems about right – I was never any good at accounting and hey – it’s a payment plan. I like paying for things over time. I’ve got another fourteen months left on the CBA, but that’s neither here nor there.

“Since I like getting involved personally in everything, I ask if I can pick them. The guy on the other line said Rose and a pick for who? Then it took me a minute to figure out that I dialed the next number in my address book by accident – ‘Toronto Raptors.’ Well folks, you ever been in one of those embarrassing situations where you can’t back down gracefully.” Thomas smiled and shrugged his shoulders.

38 comments on “Unhappy With The Rose Trade?

  1. tomverve

    I don’t see what there is to be unhappy about from a fan’s standpoint. Rose gives us a much needed offensive presence on the perimeter, helping us out in the short term; his contract only runs through next year, and we’ll be way over the cap anyway, meaning there are no longterm drawbacks, salary cap or otherwise; and we get a pick that could conceivably land in the late lottery, and at worst will probably be in the 20ish range.

    Dolan might be unhappy for the extra $30 mill or so he has to fork out next season for Rose’s contract and the matching luxury tax. But I am not unhappy, seeing as I’m not Dolan.

  2. KD

    Everyone is giving Isiah’er (as Vecsey calls him) a hard time because he’s come close to recreating the 2002-03 Chicago Bulls.

    Where’s the problem in that? That’s a 30 win team! That’s a fine step up.

  3. some guy

    “and we get a pick that could conceivably land in the late lottery, and at worst will probably be in the 20ish range”

    That would be nice most years, but this year’s draft looks to be so poor that the ~20 will be almost useless. I think I like the trade, but the draft pick doesn’t mean much to me.

  4. Craig C.

    Where’d all of the people who were screaming to the heavens during the 6 game winnign streak go? If we go on another one, all of you will be back. This trade is bad bad bad.

  5. Steve

    From the New York Times online:

    “The teams discussed sending Orlando’s Steve Francis to Denver, with two Nuggets players, point guard Earl Watson and forward Bryon Russell, going to the Knicks.

    The Knicks would have sent Trevor Ariza to Denver and would have probably dealt Crawford to Orlando. The Nuggets would have shipped Nen? and Voshon Lenard to the Magic.

    The proposed deal, however, is dead.”

    I like Watson (at this stage, I like any point guard), but giving up Crawford and Ariza seems like too much. I’m guessing the Zeke was the one who pulled out, causing it to collapse.

    It was great watching Rose handle the ball today — amazing how much better they look with a veteran running things instead of Crawford or Nate. And, Rose isn’t even a point guard! That doesn’t say much for Nate or Crawford’s floor general abilities.

    I’m wondering if Charlotte would take the two No. 1′s plus Ariza for Brevin Knight. Felton is playing well, so they don’t need him. There’s no salary match, so NYK would need a third team.

    I also read speculation that NYK acquired that No. 1 to try to build a package to get Al Harrington.

    Good luck, Zeke.

  6. Bro. Sweets

    I’ve been a fan forover 35 years…in 1981 Micheal Ray Richardson was asked about the state of the Knicks team to which he replied : “The ship be sinking.” In 2006 the Knicks need Jalen Rose like the Titanic needed another anchor. The ship be sinking alright.

    My login word was “arson”…how appropriate. Zeke has burning this team to the to the ground since he arrived in N.Y. Zeke must go.

  7. Jim K

    Well, I’m not a fan of Rose, but the Knicks still have a logjam at Power Forward and nowhere else, so disposing of one of them while getting another player who can play the guard positions and small forward plus a pick isn’t necessarily a disaster. If I’m not mistaken, the Knicks were already going to be over the cap for the length of Rose’s contract anyway, so it’s somewhat irrelevant regarding free agent signings and the such. Obviously, Rose isn’t known for team play or defense, which the team could use, but he’s also unafraid of being in the spotlight and taking big shots, which could be useful, cuz I don’t see a single Knick who actually seems to like to be in these moments; Rose does. And Rose, perhaps, will be useful in tutoring guys like Woods and Crawford who have similar games that they haven’t developed. I mean, if Brown can teach them some defense and Rose can teach them some offense, maybe he could be useful.

    As for guys who were happy during the win streak, I am one of them. I am not happy now. But I’d still rather talk about basketball and strategy and skill on the court than have endless cap discussions. So, I don’t see the trade making the Knicks any worse, and it has a possible upside. Perhaps a negligible one, but possible. And any draft pick is useful — even in a weak draft, a good midlevel player can slip through, so who knows…

  8. EZ

    I keep asking myself how Isiah justified this trade to the Dolans. Does Isiah approach them and say, “hey guys you know we are really awful this year and I know you are paying a lot of your money and the results stink. I have this really good idea, though. Lets trade a guy, who by the way, you have to pay for only a few more months for a guy who has never been a winner, and has famously not gotten along with our coach. And for that joy you get to pay him over the course of the next year aout 24 million dollars.” Do the Dolans respond, “that’s a good idea, if it doesn’t work out we’ll have to raise cable rates again or you’ll just have to trade him next year for another terrible player with a terrible contract.”

    What sort of business sense to these owners have? It all boils down to awful leadership. A competent organization doesn’t have to deal with this lunacy. THe Dolans are lucky they make their money from a monopoly, otherwise they’d be destitute.

  9. Big Fella

    I can’t kill Isiah on this one. Will it make much of a difference? No, but like everyone has been saying, Rose is only signed for one more year, and he will be much more useful to this team than Tony Davis. Plus, seeing as mid to late draft picks are all crap shoots, you might as well stock up on them.

  10. Big Fella

    “Plus, seeing as mid to late draft picks are all crap shoots, you might as well stock up on them.”

    . . . to increase your odds of maybe getting lucky.

  11. Ted Nelson

    Besides the draft pick and Rose’s superiority to Davis, having another expiring contract next year allows the Knicks to remain in contention to sign-and-trade for free agents this offseason and acquire any legitimate big money player who might become available available in a trade.

    As for a draft pick outiside the lotto of a weak draft:
    the 2000 draft had one of the weakest lotteries in recent memory, but the picks taken from 16-21 read Hedo, Desmon Mason, Q Richardson, Jamaal Magloire, Speedy Claxton, and Morris Peterson while Marko Jaric and Michael Redd both fell into the second round. 2002 really lacked depth outside the lotery but Tayshaun, Nenad, Salmons, Gadzuric, and Boozer managed to slip through.
    So while there should be some Marcus Fizers and Marcus Haislips in this draft, the Knicks could really use a solid role player or two if they keeo the picks. And if there’s one thing you can trust Isiah to do it’s draft. So if you want him gone let’s at least wait till after the draft.
    As always, another factor is going to be which players decide to declare. Do underclassmen take a chance that they can go high in a weak draft or do they stay in school? Josh McRoberts, Kyle Lowry, Sergio Rodriguez, etc. could, if nothing else, make this a much deeper draft.
    I would not agree that drafting outside the lottery is a crap shoot. Some luck is involved, but explain to me why San Antonio consistantly adds a quality player late in the first. Or why Donnie Walsh consistantly picks up contributors in Indy. And if you look at Isiah’s track record it seems that he’s one of the most skilled drafters in the NBA.

  12. Seth

    Weak drafts tend to have the best sleepers, and we now have two mid-late first rounders. It’s probably irrelevant but I need SOMETHING.

  13. JK47

    This trade isn’t that bad. Our options at SF all pretty much stink and at least Jalen can score and pass a little. Davis was a black hole, doing little except taking playing time away from our young bigs. I’d like to see the team take a shot on a high-upside high school kid with the draft pick.

  14. EZ

    I really don’t understand how anyone can justify this trade. I think everyone agrees that the current situation is as close to rock-bottom as it can get. We have one of the worst records in the league, no draft picks, long-term contracts, etc. The only solution as I see it is to let nature take its course. Bleed this team until all the contracts expire, and start over. We all know its going to take a few years and if the Knicks brass were to announce a commitment to do so, I believe their fans would support them. I know I would because it is a sound business decision. By making this trade, the Knicks have publicly announced “hey this problem can be fixed. We’re gonna keep trying to acquire players (no matter how deficient these players may be) to get better. We don’t care about our short and medium term future because we think we can turn this around.” The Dolans and Isiah may believe that but I don’t think anyone else in the league does and most observers don’t either. Its just mismanaged, bad, bad business.

  15. Knicks4Ever

    This was a good trade for the Knicks. Not only did we ship Rose to Toronto, but we got rid of two second-round picks which were holding us back from getting Antonio Davis (the only answer to stopping Shaq in the Playoffs!)

  16. Harlemnightz

    Yo, I don’t know what you’re talking about Knicks4ever! Donyell was playing great with our young guys (Crawford and Curry) and at least keeping us alive with 3-pointers late in games. Antonio can’t stop Shaq! We were better with Rose at the point! Check your facts!

  17. Steve

    “explain to me why San Antonio consistantly adds a quality player late in the first. Or why Donnie Walsh consistantly picks up contributors in Indy. And if you look at Isiah?s track record it seems that he?s one of the most skilled drafters in the NBA.”

    i think those players have the luxury of entering a stable situation, with a solid coaching staff that clearly defines roles for its players. san antonio does a good job of scouting out hidden gems, but they also provide an environment in which they can flourish.

    the knicks are a madhouse, and zeke attention deficit disorder doesn’t help things. he needs to stop turning the roster over constantly and gives guys a chance to find their place.

    “someone remind me why did we trade all those picks and overpay Curry?”

    curry’s not overpaid, relative to the market. he’s getting the same as dalembert and tyson chandler, and i’d take eddy over both those guys.

    y’all are too tough on eddy. he is what he is, and nothing more. if you expect him to dominate the glass and swat shots into the third row, you’re going to be consistently disappointed. he’s a scorer, flat out. his upside remains only in maturing, staying in shape and out of foul trouble, and learning a few veteran tricks here and there. if you don’t like eddy, would you rather have jerome james in the middle? centers are hard to come by, and guys who can score like he can are even harder.

  18. Jim K

    I have to second the support for the Curry trade…in case anyone hasn’t noticed, Sweetney hasn’t lit any fires in Chicago, and appears to have a) lost his starting job to Othella Harrington and B) fallen behind Songalia in the Power Forward rotation, so despite all the outsized love for him in some quarters, I think he is what he is until proven otherwise; a good backup who puts up some nice numbers. And, again, the Knicks logjammed position was power forward, so they had to unload somebody — if Sweetney was here, Frye and Lee would have never gotten the minutes they have gotten. Now Curry might still have a heart whatchamacalit and have to retire quickly. But he’s a more valuable player than Sweetney, and plays a position that allows minutes to Frye and others…the Knicks certainly wouldn’t have done better this season with Sweetney!

  19. Ammad

    This is the trade that I have been clamoring for. I am very happy that Isiah made this trade.

    During the off season they can dangle the expiring contract of Jalen Rose and Maurice Taylor and perhaps land someone like an Al Harrington or a Garnett or maybe even a Paul Pierce.

    Just gives me hope. They can bundle those 2 players and or the 2 picks in a weak draft and get someone who is going to make an impact.

    This way you have a nucleus of Curry, Frye, Lee, Crawford, Marbury, and……a big name player.

    Not too shabby. The young guns will have to learn and play defense under Larry Brown.

    This year the team seemed to make some improvements but then fell in to a funk. Hopefully in the 2nd half they can put together some wins and finish on a strong point. This way at least they can end the season on a strong note.

    The team in my opinion is playing worse than they are capable of playing. Larry will get better adjusted to the team and the players will get better under him as well. Just a matter of time.

    If they can turn Penny Hardaway in to someone worth while I am all about it. But as long as they not going to take on 4 years of salary, ala Kenyon Martin. Someone with a bum back, bum knee, and a monster contract.

    Either way this trade is at least something that makes sense. Clear our a power forward, bring in a small forward with some ball handling skills who is not signed for that long.

    People can talk about the salary cap all they want but the Knicks are stuck till at least 2008. So as long as they are not taking on long term salaries that go past 2008. So be it, not like we have a pick right now anyway, so this is the way that Isiah has chosen to improve, through expiring contracts. Only way for a team that is so capped out, that and picks. I think that we have enough young players.

    Curry
    Frye
    Ariza
    Robinson
    Lee
    Crawford
    Woods
    Butler

    All of the above mentioned guys are going to improve as they are young and still learning.

    Now you can sprinkle in a solid veteran who can contribute and you may have something.

    This team needs a veteran in the clubhouse who can also perform on the court.

    Marbury is a great player but he can’t do it alone and he is not a leader.

    Antonio Davis can’t get it done on the court any more so his talk falls on deaf ears.

    They need a defender on the wing and a point guard and this team is at least a play off team.

    Hopefully by dangling Penny’s contract they can get someone of the caliber.

    Then during the off season you can tweak the roster, no more overhauling.

  20. Monsterkeys

    Why on Earth is David Lee not on the court more???
    He obviously has a multi-dimensional game compared
    to the massive cadre of losers Brown throws in there
    at forward. Remember the winning streak??? Someone tell me what the hell happened to Mr. Lee?

  21. Jim K

    It would seem that they’ve decided Lee is indeed a power forward, and thus, he’s moved back to spot duty behing Frye and Taylor. Last few it’s been Rose/Richardson/Woods playing at small forward…

  22. QueensYo

    What if we combined the Raptors and Knicks into one team? It could look like this

    C – Curry
    PF – Chrish Bosh
    SF- Jalen Rose/Charlie Villanueva/Frye
    SG – Mike James/Crawford/Mo Pete
    PG – Stephon Marbury

    Hit me back wit your thoughts….

  23. Ben

    I’d take Bosh and Mo Pete to the Knicks and they can keep the rest of the Team. I’d rather see the Spurs and Heat combine Teams!

    C – Shaquille O’Neal
    PF – Tim Duncan
    SF – Antoine Walker
    SG – Manu Ginobli
    PG – Dwayne Wade

  24. Alex

    After watching tonights loss against the Clippers, I think LB should start Jalen at the point. Marbury is too dribble happy and cannot front any point gaurd in the league. Jalen presents matchup problems and his wingspan and height block the clear view. Hell, it can’t hurt!

    My starting 5:

    Curry/Frye
    Taylor/Rose
    Lee/Woods
    Marbury/Crawford
    J.Rose/Nate

    Q is the backups backup…

  25. JONESONTHENBA

    I can’t believe someone highlighted Antoine Walker in a comination of the Heat and The Spurs. Antoine is just the worst good player in the history of the NBA. I like to call him the BLACK HOLE, because once he get’s the Rock you know no one else is going to see it, because he’s definitely shooting it. I’ve seen him live twice this year and in both games he AIR BALLED two three pointers! And where’s Tony Parker at in the Heat/Spurs combination? I mean, he’s only leading the league in points in the paint!

  26. Kevin

    Ammad –

    you are missing what the Rose trade really means -Woods and Ariza are not the answer. Isiah didn’t pay $30 MM for a mid first round pick. Jalen is going to take time from Woods and Ariza.

    So after next season when Jalen goes away you have two guys who sat a lot and in a lot of time in the NBA have accomplished nothing.

  27. Ammad

    Kevin-

    Normally I would agree with you except for a few things.

    #1 Malike Rose and Maurice Taylor are playing whereas David Lee is not.

    #2 Quentin Richardson is playing whereas Nate Robinson and Ariza are not playing.

    To me it sounds like the Knicks are not 100% committed to the youth movement.

    I mean today they are talking about trading Frye, Lee, Ariza, and Robinson in various deals to get players who are shot like Kenyon Martin or Darius Miles etc..

    At least in the Rose situation they addressed a need. Take away minutes from Q Rich and Malik Rose and give those to Lee.

    Lee in my opinion should be one of the top guys right off the bench. Why have the Knicks gone away from what got them that 6 game winning streak? During that streak Malike Rose was a bench fixture. Now he is your first option off the bench.

  28. Sonny from Brooklyn

    The team just lacks total direction; its totally inconsistent. Management and Coaching clearly are not on the same page. Either Isiah has some genius plan up his sleave that will all make sense one day or the knicks will be set back another 5 to 7 years. Its like Zeke is taking a page out of the Yanks play book with even the suggestion to trade our young players;
    Whats next? Ariza and Frye for Kevin Brown and Randy Johnson? David Lee for former Badboy Standout Dennis “the worm” Rodman? C’mon!!!

    I actually like Jalen as a player but him being on the roster stunts the development of the younger guys (Robinson, Lee, Ariza and even Frye). I’d honestly prefer to lose with younger guys and see them get better than to lose with over priced veterns who can’t fit into the chemistry that LB is supposedly trying to create, i.e. BALL CONTROL,DEFENSE (thats another subject for another day).

    OUT

  29. Rory Sparrow

    “Dolan might be unhappy for the extra $30 mill or so he has to fork out next season for Rose?s contract and the matching luxury tax. But I am not unhappy, seeing as I?m not Dolan.”

    Actually, this will also come out of our pockets in the form of raised ticket prices, and more expensive cable packages. Dolan doesn’t spare the consumer in case you haven’t noticed. Anyone beside a rich celebrity going to Madison Square Garden these days?

  30. Gorky

    Actually, if the attendance figures of Yahoo Sports are to be believed, the last five home games averaged 19431 attendees and the first five home games of the season averaged 18142 attendees, so it seems like more people are seeing the Knicks now-ish. I think if we boycott the Knicks, Dolan will start to lose money because of these outrageous contracts, and will be forced to actually use a sensible GM instead of trigger-happy Isiah.

  31. Rharnick

    Larry Brown has to take some of the blame for this season. He we are 50 games in and players still don’t have defined roles or minutes. You can say that’s because of the players but it is the coaches job to set the substitution pattern and to put the players in a position to suceed.

    Why does Brown insist on putting in Malik Rose late in the game for Curry or Frye? Yes Rose plays defense but he always misses the game tying shot.

    Why isn’t Frye the first player off the bench?

    Why doesn’t he insist that the guards continue to feed Curry in the low post throughout the game rather than just in the first quarter?

    Does Jamal Crawford or Nate Robinson have any acumen for basketball at all? At least Robinson’s a rookie, Crawford apparently will never have a clue. He isn’t a started and I’m no longer sure he can come off the bench and provide a spark.

    Finally the team has quit on Brown, which is the biggest 10 million dollar a year disaster in league history.

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