Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, August 30, 2014

Tyson Chandler to the Knicks?

Even though free agency is scheduled to begin tomorrow at 2 pm, the first bombshell of the offseason dropped this afternoon, and it involved the New York Knicks.

According to various sources, the New York Knicks are the leaders to sign Dallas Mavericks free agent center Tyson Chandler. The Knicks are looking to sign him to a 4 year deal believed to be worth around 14-15 million per year. Supposedly, Chandler turned down a 4 year, 60 million dollars deal from the Golden State Warriors.

How the Knicks will be able to sign Chandler with all their cap room tied up on Amare Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony, and Chauncey Billups? New York can work out a S&T deal with the Mavericks (and perhaps a third team) that will send Chauncey Billups in exchange for the rights to Chandler. Or they can use the amnesty exception on Billups which would give the Knicks around 12 million dollars in cap room to sign Chandler. If the team needs more cap room, they can send Turiaf to a team under the cap to free up another 4 million. That would give the Knicks around 16 million dollars to work with on signing Chandler.

A move like this might signal that the Knicks front office realizes that it would be unlikely to acquire Chris Paul this offseason. One has to wonder who the true architect of this deal is, given the front office contains Glen Grunwald and Mark Warkentien (and of course the spectre of Donnie Walsh remains as well).

Should the deal go through, acquiring Tyson Chandler would fit an obvious need for the team, as it provides a major defensive force behind Melo and Amare. The Knicks would be getting a player who was the backbone of the Mavericks’ NBA title team. Chandler led the NBA last season in True Shooting Percentage (.697), and Offensive Rating (131.0). Chandler was also among the league leaders in Offensive Rebounding Percentage (12.2%), Defensive Rebounding Percentage (26.6%), Total Rebounding Percentage (19.7%), and Defensive Rating (101.6). The downside is that Chandler has been injury-prone recently, failing to play 52 games in 2 of his last 3 seasons.

Additionally the move would leave the Knicks with the passing challenged Toney Douglas and the unproven rookie Iman Shumpert manning the point. New York could theoretically trade either Carmelo or Amar’e for Chris Paul, grab another point guard in free agency (perhaps with their mid-level), or wait until 2012 and hope for Steve Nash to come at a discount.

At this time nothing is official yet, and even if this goes through, the Knicks would still need to address some other issues in free agency. But if the deal does go through, New York would be filling their biggest need.

152 comments on “Tyson Chandler to the Knicks?

  1. daJudge

    I favor trading Melo for CP3 outright, but for the many reasons set forth previously, it’s probably a bad idea. We should be able to secure a decent 1 with a mid level and while I like Grant Hill, if a decent 1 is available, we can pounce. I also would like to give TD a chance with Shump. I think TD demonstrated a real toughness last year and played pretty well. The addition of a real Center who can set a pick will help him as well.

  2. leiboadam

    Well since we all know now that Paul is going to the Lakers we can end all that speculation. And more than likely, this is the team we’re dealing with from now on.

    With that being said, I think it’s really important this becomes a sign and trade because that keeps them as an over the cap team and lets them use their full mid level and their bi-annual exception to get a point guard and some bench help. Thinking an amnestied Baron and Davis and Grant Hill would be pretty good additions to this team along with a re-signed Shawne Williams. Without a sign and trade, this becomes a lot more difficult.

    Glad this whole building towards a team that is never coming thing is finally over. Now I can just watch my team and like the players without thinking of them as placeholders.

  3. daJudge

    Agreed leiboadam re: placeholders. It’s tough to get into a team with that perspective. What about Baron Davis? Any interest? There is a report that he would take a discount to play in NY. Does he fit? Side note–It’s really interesting that I have not read any posts about players fitting into SSOL. Are we changing philosophy? I really hope so.

  4. twoseam2007

    Alan Hahn reported that Davis would be interested in coming here….I’ve been miserable all day about the Knicks but then I realized something…When allowed to trade recent signees, the Knicks could trade Chandler, Fields, Shumpert and 2018 first for HOWARD?!?! That would be better than just bynum or Lopez and a couple of draft picks right?

  5. rooster_douglas

    @2 and @3

    Baron Davis is toxic. He’s the new AI. For my money I wouldn’t want him at the vet minimum. He can’t shoot, he’s fat, and he’s getting old. I do like his beard, though.

  6. rooster_douglas

    @ 4 We can’t trade any new signing for 6 months, I don’t think. Someone correct me if I’m wrong…

  7. anubav

    (NB: first time poster)

    Interesting move. I’m glad that the interior defense will get an upgrade with Chandler, but I am concerned that since both Amar’e and Chandler are most effective offensively running the high pick and roll, without a point guard, they’ll be limited. D’antoni’s religion is the pick and roll and when Felton started to run it effectively last year, he really elevated Amare’s game. Hopefully, whoever runs the point can figure it out (certainly having Melo on the wing to spread things out will help with spacing). Shump’s certainly got the height to see over the screen, but the pick and roll is all about being able to maintain up-and-down body alignment when clearing the pick.

    Anyway, it’s nice to have a sense of the team I’ll be rooting for.

  8. tastycakes

    rooster_douglas:
    @2 and @3

    Baron Davis is toxic. He’s the new AI. For my money I wouldn’t want him at the vet minimum. He can’t shoot, he’s fat, and he’s getting old. I do like his beard, though.

    He’s definitely first-team All-Beard-NBA with James Harden and Rony Turiaf.

  9. Caleb

    Everyone knows I’m a Tyson Chandler fan, if he stays healthy. Chandler plus Amare or Melo and swapping our other star for a real superstar – that’s a nice team.

    CP3 to the Lakers is interesting. The first obvious question – is he signing an extension there? Or are the Lakers rolling the dice?

    I’m not sure this makes the Lakers better. Healthy, CP3 is the best player in the deal, but he’s not THAT much more valuable than Gasol… and Odom has always been underrated. if those are the only real players involved, did the Lakers give up more than they got? Not to mention, instead of being deep with bigs, they are counting on Andrew Bynum to play full-time minutes and not get hurt. Uhhh….

    Unless, of course, they know they are about to get Dwight Howard. BUt that’s the kind of move you make no matter what. And I doubt the Magic are ready to do a Bynum/Howard swap, not yet.

  10. Caleb

    Baron Davis is ok, especially if it’s a one-year deal where he tries to build back his value. He’s not what he was but he’s better than your average filler that would be our other options, with Billups gone. We’re hurting if TD is our only PG on the roster.

  11. d-mar

    @9 I would highly doubt the Lakers are doing the deal without an extension. Paul might have said he only wants to play for NY, but the Lakers are the Lakers. He’ll finish his career there, I would guess. And I agree, I think the Magic can do better than Bynum, plus try to grab some draft picks in the deal as well.

  12. Garson

    Not opposed to bringing back Anthony Carter…. He knows the system, is a locker room plus and loved him in the last game of the season. Whos with me?

  13. Caleb

    Most teams that would be obvious, but the Lakers, maybe Mavs, maybe Orlando – those are teams with like a one- or two-year window. They could be willing to go all-in to maximize their chances of winning this year, and hope they convince the guy to stay. Thinking, even w/Gasol and Odom they don’t have a window beyond 2012. And I’d have to look at the salary page, but this might free them up to max out Dwight Howard and a 2nd player in 2012.. so almost a no-lose situation.

  14. Robert Silverman

    Dear God, I think the Lakers are getting Okafor in the deal. Only way it can work under the cap…

    Okafor, Bynum, World Peace up front w/CP3 and Kobe in the backcourt.

    We better start practicing bowing down to our Laker overlords now…

  15. JK47

    Please tell me Orlando is going to want more than Bynum straight up. That would be a flat-out fleecing, considering Bynum’s contract is expiring. I would think Orlando could get more for a rental of Howard than one year of the injury-prone Bynum.

    On the Knick front, where is Turiaf going, and are we getting a piece in return for him? Does Grant Hill still want to come here? Would he take the vet’s minimum? Is there any way to add a veteran point? So many questions!

  16. JK47

    @14

    At least that means they’re not getting Dwight Howard, in which case we would REALLY need to start bowing.

    Paul is obviously a massive upgrade at PG for them but Okafor is quite a bit below Gasol production-wise and Bynum has problems staying healthy. I wouldn’t start conceding championships to them just yet.

  17. max fisher-cohen

    @166 (previous thread)

    Frank, I’m pretty sure this is how it would work: If we amnesty Billups, we drop below the cap, negating our access to any exceptions that require us to be over the cap. Even if we sign Chandler and then re-sign Shawne Williams, putting us over the cap, we would not have the MLE.

    Now, if instead we somehow found a taker for Billups who had an asset that Dallas was interested in — maybe someone who earned around $9 million (enough $ to match Chandler’s salary under the new CBA) but who expired at the end of the year, then we could stay over the cap and still use the MLE.

    The incentive for Dallas would be they could make one more run without committing to a long term deal, thereby avoiding the heavier luxury tax that sets in in a couple of years.

    Dallas would probably want another big man.

    Would LAC take Billups, send Kaman to Dallas, and Chandler to NYC? They don’t need Kaman if they’re re-signing Jordan.

    What about Billups to the Blazers, Camby to Dallas? The blazers’ only PGs are Felton and Patty Mills, and they likely hope to have Odom healthy. Aldridge has also proven himself to be legit at the center position.

    Those are the only two deals I could see working.

  18. Robert Silverman

    JK47:
    @14

    At least that means they’re not getting Dwight Howard, in which case we would REALLY need to start bowing.

    Paul is obviously a massive upgrade at PG for them but Okafor is quite a bit below Gasol production-wise and Bynum has problems staying healthy.I wouldn’t start conceding championships to them just yet.

    Not championship(s) plural, but this year, they’re colossal favorites.

    As far as whether or not they’ll get Howard, it’ll be interesting to see what offers Orlando gets. The Hornets got a decent return for Paul. Scola, Odom, Martin, Dragic and a 2012 1st (The KNICKS 1st rounder, btw), is pretty impressive.

    What if the Bulls offered Noah, Gibson and multiple 1st rounders for Howard. Orlando’d have to think about that one

  19. Robert Silverman

    max fisher-cohen:
    @166 (previous thread)

    Frank, I’m pretty sure this is how it would work: If we amnesty Billups, we drop below the cap, negating our access to any exceptions that require us to be over the cap.

    Actually no, the Knicks right now are 3 million over the cap. In order to sign Chandler for 15 million, they have to amnesty Billups and dump Rony Turiaf for nothing to a team w/cap room.

    After all’s said and done, they’ll still be 1 million over the cap. The exceptions are still in play

  20. Spree8nyk8

    I’m not seeing anywhere that LA got Okafor other than an LA times article. Anyone know for sure?

  21. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I believe it was Sports Illustrated that said that if, say, Paul went to free agency with his current team (in this case, the Lakers) they’d be able to re-sign him for more money. But he’d have to go to free agency. He couldn’t do an extend and trade and get that extra money. So I imagine that is what will happen (if SI was correct).

    In any event, yeah, once the Knicks found out that Paul was going to Los Angeles and was likely signing there, and with D-Will likely re-signing with Brooklyn, clearly they had to do something now. This is certainly a good move. How good depends, of course, on how they fill out the roster. I am so dying for a team under the cap to pick up Chauncey now. Seriously, that guy has lost so much cred these last couple of weeks. First, while needing to learn a new system, he decides not to show up on time for voluntary workouts and now he is acting like he had pledged himself to the Knicks and they betrayed him. So weak.

  22. woolygator3

    Just read this article on espn about other things the CBA terms http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7329408/new-items-added-nba-collective-bargaining-agreement
    The bit I particularly like is the bit about renegotiating contracts for a lower amount over more years, which was mentioned on here earlier, I think. Surely this gives us an opportunity at someone like DWill or Dwight if some others were able to take a slight pay cut to play for a genuine contender.

  23. Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)

    I gotta say, ol’ Baron Davis is a pretty intriguing option at this point. *ducks to avoid bricks* No, really! Cleveland is most likely going to amnesty him, and I’d think NY would be the perfect place for him — media savvy guy with interests beyond basketball who could really make the most of his time. He’s already made close to $120 million. If he feels motivated, he can still be more than serviceable. Obviously that’s a big “if,” but I think if you can nab him for the vet’s minimum (another big if), you do it.

    The thought of an in-shape Baron Davis running SSOL (or some semblance there of), lobbing oops to Amar’e and Chandler, canning myriad open Js, and doing poetry slams by night, makes me turgid. He’d be like the poor man’s Clyde! *ducks to avoid bullet*

  24. Frank

    @24 – if Bain dais gets through waivers signing him is a total no brainier. We need someone legitimate. Can’t trust TD and Shumpert with he position – neither are ready.

  25. JK47

    @24

    There’s never been an in-shape Baron Davis. I’m pretty sure that guy came out of the womb carrying a spare tire.

    All kidding aside, I do like the idea of Davis as a Knick, but since he is an amnesty casualty he will not be available for the vet’s minimum. He’s still a terrific passer and knows how to run the PnR.

  26. Robert Silverman

    Jim Cavan (@JPCavan):

    The thought of an in-shape Baron Davis running SSOL (or some semblance there of), lobbing oops to Amar’e and Chandler, canning myriad open Js, and doing poetry slams by night, makes me turgid. He’d be like the poor man’s Clyde! *ducks to avoid bullet*

    The problem is, Baron Davis is right up there with Ray Felton, Tyreke Evans and now Eddy Curry in the, “Which NBA player is going to show up monstrously overweight b/c of the lockout” pageant.

    If he’s in shape, sure. But I kinda think our PG next year is going to be…Grant Hill. *Ducks to avoid piano*

  27. Frank

    Whoa.

    “@ESPNSteinLine: ESPN CP3 trade latest: Trade with Lakers will NOT go through Friday and Chris Paul is expected in Hornets camp, according to sources”

  28. Frank

    Robert Silverman: The problem is, Baron Davis is right up there with Ray Felton, Tyreke Evans and now Eddy Curry in the, “Which NBA player is going to show up monstrously overweight b/c of the lockout” pageant.

    If he’s in shape, sure. But I kinda think our PG next year is going to be…Grant Hill. *Ducks to avoid piano*

    I agree. I wrote (about 300 comments Ago!) that I could see melo and hill playing point forward in this offense

  29. TDM

    KB- I like the new mobile theme with one caveat – the posts are not numbered so when someone comments (“@9 blah blah blah”), you dont know what they are referring to necessarily. Otherwise it’s great.

    Ok any chance we can do a straight swap with NJ – Melo for DWill?

  30. Mike Kurylo

    Robert Silverman:
    Dear God, I think the Lakers are getting Okafor in the deal. Only way it can work under the cap…

    Okafor, Bynum, World Peace up front w/CP3 and Kobe in the backcourt.

    We better start practicing bowing down to our Laker overlords now…

    Only Mike Brown can save us now.

  31. tastycakes

    YES! It’s like when my fantasy league vetoes a trade because it’s “unfair” that one team is better than all the others!

  32. Frank

    If this chandler thing is for real and we give up hope of a big FA signing in ’12, it means we can use the full MLE for multiple years.

  33. Spree8nyk8

    wow this might kill the tyson chandler deal actually

    if the Knicks know the league is going to force paul to stay and go to free agency they’d almost definitely hold onto the cap room.

  34. Robert Silverman

    Spree8nyk8:
    wow this might kill the tyson chandler deal actually

    if the Knicks know the league is going to force paul to stay and go to free agency they’d almost definitely hold onto the cap room.

    I don’t think they can, now that Chauncey’s gone full-on pout.

  35. Robert Silverman

    Spree8nyk8:
    wow this might kill the tyson chandler deal actually

    if the Knicks know the league is going to force paul to stay and go to free agency they’d almost definitely hold onto the cap room.

    Besides, how could the Knicks trade for CP3 even if there’s the slightest chance the other owners might block the deal?

  36. BigBlueAL

    Considering CP3 apparently wants to play with Chandler as much as he wants to play with Melo I say still sign Chandler and worry about finding a way if possible of acquiring CP3 next off-season.

    If not they are still on the way of building a pretty damn good team with that frontcourt regardless.

  37. Spree8nyk8

    Well do you really think they can spend that money knowing that Cp3 is basically theirs if they wait six months? I mean if he can’t be traded then doesn’t that completely change things? I mean don’t get me wrong I kinda think that they should stick to this plan honestly. But I think that this really changes things.

  38. BigBlueAL

    Hollinger is saying its stupid for the owners to try to veto this trade because it is actually a bad trade for the Lakers.

  39. JK47

    It seems pretty unfair for the owners to block this trade. “Sorry New Orleans fans, but we want you to get nothing in return for Chris Paul. Thanks for playing.”

    I mean, that’s pretty rude if you think about it.

  40. Caleb

    I agree that if I were a Hornets fan I’d be screaming bloody murder to see this trade blocked. They’re getting Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom and a 1st (at least)… it’s an even deal on talent, or close to it. Does anyone think they’ll get remotely as much, in January or February? Or when he walks at the end of the year?

    It may be that owners are basically colluding to prevent Paul from getting a big payday – force him to eat millions, if he wants to leave.

  41. Frank

    Seriously, a starting lineup of Jack, Kevin Martin, Odom, Scola, and Okafor is really pretty good – that could be a 6 or 7 seed even in the West. This whole thing is completely out of control. Chris Reina tweeted that this is worse than the Donaghy thing – I have to agree.

  42. BigBlueAL

    According to Hollinger if this trade happened and the Rockets also sign Nene that they would be a potential top seed in the West. Whatever he is smoking I want some of that.

  43. massive

    Life is great. I think the Hornets shouldn’t receive all of that high priced talent in return, IMO. They need to suck in order to really get better. Ask Houston how constantly being a middle of the pack team is going.

  44. Frank

    BigBlueAL:
    Cant imagine in the end that this trade wont go through.

    Totally agree. In this twitter world, the cat is waaaay out of the bag here. Too many power players involved for this to be killed so unfairly. I mean, the Hornets are actually getting pretty good value! And the Lakers are arguably getting worse! When Bynum goes down with another injury, it would have been UGLY in LA.

  45. Frank

    BigBlueAL:
    According to Hollinger if this trade happened and the Rockets also sign Nene that they would be a potential top seed in the West.Whatever he is smoking I want some of that.

    I think he forgot that Kevin McHale is the coach.

  46. massive

    Frank: Totally agree. In this twitter world, the cat is waaaay out of the bag here. Too many power players involved for this to be killed so unfairly.I mean, the Hornets are actually getting pretty good value! And the Lakers are arguably getting worse! When Bynum goes down with another injury, it would have been UGLY in LA.

    Adding Kevin Martin, Scola, Odom, and Dragic just makes the Hornets a little worse. They need to be really bad for consecutive years if they really wanna rebuild.

  47. ess-dog

    Wait so the Paul trade is off? I was sort of psyched that he wasn’t going to Boston.
    I liked NO’s haul: Knick killer Jarret Jack and the underrated Dragic at pg, Uber efficient Martin at sg, Odom at sf I suppose and Scola and Okafor down low. That’s a playoff team.

    I’m not a big fan of Baron at this point. TD might be the better option. Any chance we can get Barea? He wants to come here, and has been soaking up the Kidd learning.

    Although I’m ecstatic about our frontline now, it does seem like we’re collecting assets for yet another deal down the road, i.e. Howard or Paul.

  48. BigBlueAL

    Its amazing how much these stats guys love the Rockets because of their genius GM yet they havent made the playoffs in the past 2 years and have won 1 playoff series since 1997.

  49. massive

    I think the NBA vetoed the deal because they saw Bynum going to Orlando for D12 as something close to inevitable. Just my sentiment on the matter. I’m glad the trade didn’t go through, and I was actually really happy with the prospects of adding B-Diddy, Tyson Chandler, and Grant Hill to the team. Does the CP3 deal not going through have any effects on those plans? I would think so.

  50. daJudge

    I don’t think it can or will kill the Chandler deal. CP3 is controlled, in part, by the ownership of the Hornets. Since the Hornets are owned in part by the NBA, which is made up of the other teams, then they have a say. It’s not a straight open market mode at all. It’s a collective and, akin to a Chapter 11, and that is highly significant. Chandler is a free agent period. Now if the Knicks are really hot on CP3, the organization might decide to back out of the Chandler deal and try to deal with the NO’s collective. But why? I think I would rather have Chandler anyway and I hope the Knicks feel the same way. If the Knicks want CP3 so bad, they can trade Melo (fair compensation), which probably would made Stern and the collective very happy from a revenge pov. He probably hates what went down last year Melo. It would also serve as a blow to intra-player conspiracy through toasts at weddings. I hope I’m being clear. This is an assertion of owner dominance.

  51. Spree8nyk8

    I’m telling you, if the Knicks think that Paul is stuck then I really don’t see how the tyson chandler deal goes through, I think this just stuck a wrench into multiple scenarios. It’s one thing to move on from a player you can’t get, it’s quite another thing when you become one of the only viable destinations.

  52. Frank

    I honestly would rather have chandler this year, add Nash next year, and take our chances that we can find a PG through draft or MLE. Melo amare cp3 with a bunch of scrubs was never going to be good enough. Fun to watch, sure, but this way we dont need to renounce everyone to get our big 3.

  53. Count de Pennies

    I’m confused…

    …if decisions on behalf of the Hornets are made by some NBA owner hive-mind, then who was it that agreed to trade CP3 to the Lakers in the first place?

  54. Frank

    Chris Broussard is on sprtsxenter saying that the union is getting involved. Can’t imagine that the league vetoing this will hold up, but I have no idea what the legal arguments will be.

  55. JK47

    The Knicks would be foolish to back out of the Chandler deal at this point because they think Chris Paul MIGHT eventually come here a year from now for a less-than-max contract. You have a guy ready to come here tomorrow who goes a long way towards fixing the biggest weaknesses on the team. Bird in the hand and all that.

    Yes, Chris Paul is the better player, but without Tyson Chandler we have Ronny Turiaf, Jared Jeffries. Our “talent” level at that position is so dire that I was actually hopeful that something called Jorts was gonna come in here and save the day. That is a longshot proposition.

    Let’s say we bail on Chandler and wait for Chris Paul, then everything goes just like we want it and we move every other asset off the books so we can squeeze Paul under the salary cap. What then? Are we going to fix our interior defense and rebounding issues with the MLE?

  56. massive

    Unless we can somehow get Patric Young this year (and we can’t), I’d want Tyson Chandler on this team, and not worry about having to offer CP3 a lowball of $13 million next-offseason. Hopefully Kendall Marshall comes out and we buy his draft rights.

  57. Spree8nyk8

    Honestly, I want the Knicks to proceed as planned and land Chandler. It’s even way better if the Lakers are screwed outta this deal honestly. I mean all I want is for the Knicks to have a team and for the competition to allow us to catch up. I just don’t wanna see other teams striding forward while we are sprinting to catch them.

  58. Shad0wF0x

    The Knicks should go for the center now. It solves our biggest weaknesses at rebounding and interior defense.

  59. max fisher-cohen

    Robert Silverman: Actually no, the Knicks right now are 3 million over the cap. In order to sign Chandler for 15 million, they have to amnesty Billups and dump Rony Turiaf for nothing to a team w/cap room.

    After all’s said and done, they’ll still be 1 million over the cap. The exceptions are still in play

    Ah, some research suggests you’re right — they changed the rule. It used to be that if you were below the cap during the summer free agency period at any point, you couldn’t use the MLE at all.

    There’s still a problem though according to this:

    If you use the full mid-level to get to or approach that barrier looming $4 million over the tax line, you cannot cross it by re-signing your own free agents via Larry Bird Rights…teams in fact cannot cross that barrier $4 million over the tax line via veteran’s minimum deals if you first use the full mid-level.

    That means if we’re $1 million below the cap, we have exactly $5 million to spend on bird rights players, MLE players, and/or guys who demand the vet’s minimum. The only concern that raises is with Shawne Williams. If Williams wants $3 million, it would come out of the $5 million MLE…

  60. Frank

    The 4M thing is in regards to the tax line, not the cap amount. So we could spend up to 74M before having to worry about that.

  61. Caleb

    @69 they might reconsider – I think they should – but I don’t see how the decision could be legally challenged. The league owns the Hornets and can make whatever personnel moves they want.

  62. max fisher-cohen

    The trade in terms of talent is not a terrible one in terms of balance. Gasol is probably a top ten player when he’s not worried about his girlfriend or whatever it was. Odom was/is the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. The problem is that the Hornets need to rebuild. K-Mart, Scola, and Odom = 40 wins or so. Why would the Hornets mess up their lottery chances? The only thing that makes sense is if they move those guys again later in the season for young talent/picks.

    The Hornets should be getting the Rockets’ 2 picks rather than Scola — Motiejunas and Marcus Morris and then just salary filler. They can just amnesty Okafor.

    Something like this would be perfect for all parties: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bts8rgp

  63. max fisher-cohen

    Frank:
    The 4M thing is in regards to the tax line, not the cap amount. So we could spend up to 74M before having to worry about that.

    Thanks Frank, my bad!

  64. Z-man

    Tyson Chandler or not, this is the most optimistic I have felt about the Knicks’ present and future in a lo-o-o-o-ng time. Where’s your god now, THCJ?

  65. Z-man

    Has anyone considered the contract renegotiation clause in going after FA’s? Refuting some previous posts, Amare and Melo can indeed renegotiate to lesser money for more years to facilitate acquisitions under the new CBA. This is a huge development, IMO.

  66. Mike Kurylo

    TDM: s is right up there with Ray Felton, Tyreke Evans and now Eddy Curry in the, “Which NBA pl

    Funny thing is that I don’t see what the mobile site looks like. :-)

    Waiting for my job to upgrade my current device.

  67. Mulligan

    When do we find out if Chandler is a sign and trade or straight up free agent signing? Wouldn’t the Mavs want some assets in return for losing Chandler? Could we do Billups straight up for chandler or do we need to include Turiaf? Could that somehow land us Barea as well? That’d make this trade an A+ to me.

  68. The Formerly-Congenial Cock Jowles, #1 Gentleman

    BE SURPRISED, KNICKERBLOGGERS:

    THCJ IS FANTASTICALLY HAPPY.

    Seriously! This is the best possible signing they could have made. This addresses a SERIOUS hole, probably the largest on the team, and this INSTANTLY makes them a 50-55 win team. Maybe better! I’m so happy. This is the last thing I expected to see.

    And Paul to the Lakers? Would have been insane, but not at the cost of giving up two immensely talented and productive big men. Lakers fans should be happy.

  69. Mike Kurylo

    BigBlueAL:
    Its amazing how much these stats guys love the Rockets because of their genius GM yet they havent made the playoffs in the past 2 years and have won 1 playoff series since 1997.

    Isn’t amazing how non-stat guys will try to make any argument to discount statistics?

    Morey has only been the GM since 2007. They’ve won one playoff series in that time, despite their best player missing 2 seasons. Considering they won zero playoffs series before that, I’d think that’s progress. Funny how you go back a decade before he got the job to somehow prove that Morey is ineffective. Actually I’d argue the Rockets horrible decade makes his modest success even more pertinent.

    Also please don’t ignore that he’s not the only stat-savvy team in the league. You can add the Spurs & Thunder to that list, and I’m sure there are plenty more.

    If you want to discount a method for GMing, let’s look at the worst non-stat guys & have a conversation, shall we?

  70. massive

    Z-man:
    Has anyone considered the contract renegotiation clause in going after FA’s? Refuting some previous posts, Amare and Melo can indeed renegotiate to lesser money for more years to facilitate acquisitions under the new CBA. This is a huge development, IMO.

    So we could possibly get Amar’e and Melo to take $13 million a piece over the course of their guaranteed deals? That would be $26 million between the two of them, plus Chandler’s $13-14 million a year (I wouldn’t expect him to restructure his deal, he’s not the endorsement magnet Melo, Amar’e, and CP3 would be) putting us at $39-40 million. If the cap is projected around $61 million next year, we’d have a pretty decent amount of money to offer CP3 (after cap holds and such).

  71. cgreene

    I don’t think the CP3 deal was great for the Lakers. Also don’t think they would have ended up with Dwight. But either way Stern made a terrible and seemingly petulant decision. I think the backlash from this is going to be very bad for the league and really put the players and owners at odds. Why not slow it down by 24 hours with physicals and contract signings etc and think it through. This was a totally legit trade for “basketball reasons”. This is going to take several more twists and turns. Sure seems like the league just penalized one player though. As CP3 tweeted… WoW

    On the other hand I hope and pray that it has no trickle affect on the Knicks and Tyson. Love that deal. Didn’t want to wait to start building. Fills the more important need and totally agree w those who say that filling PG at MLE will be much easier. How about JJ Barea for 2 years $8M of MLE?

  72. Frank

    @87- I think I’d rather spend 2 years 7M on grant hill and then give rest of MLE to Shawne for 2 years, trust TD, Hill, melo to handle the ball, or resign carter if necessary. Barea is a terrible defender. Then pick up Nash with the MLE next year.

  73. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    It is definitely awesome news that players are now allowed to renegotiate their salaries downward through extensions (up to a maximum of 40% reduction). I am surprised that the owners allowed that rule change. But yeah, that should be major news for the Knicks.

  74. cgreene

    @88 happy with that too. read Knicks are out of Grant Hill mix and it’s Spurs or Suns. Seems odd he would choose SA of NY. Knicks w Chandler > Spurs

  75. Thomas B.

    Option A:
    Paul
    Fields
    Anthony
    Jeffries
    Stoudemire

    vs.
    Option B:
    Douglas
    Fields
    Anthony
    Stoudemire
    Chandler

    I honestly like option B better because:
    (1) anything that keeps JJ out of the starting lineup is a very good thing.
    (2) I think Paul/Jeffries is worse than Douglas/Chandler.

    Paul is far and away the best player of that group, but Jeffries is sooooo bad that he sucks the life out of that tandem.
    I know TD aint perfect, he might not be a pass first run the offense point, but you can’t deny that he pays solid defense. Adding two strong defensive players does more for this team than adding Paul/Jeffries. TD and Chandler can contribute without dominating the ball on offense. Douglas has some scoring ability and can hit the long jumper. Chandler creates possessions and reduces second chance scoring. I think option B is the more balanced team.

  76. massive

    @91,

    DWTDD actually ran the offense very well when Chauncey was sitting out. He just needs to be consistent, IMO.

  77. JK47

    We’re not going to need a PG once D’Antoni gets fired and Phil Jackson runs the triangle offense here. Ahem.

  78. Spree8nyk8

    Also, is there anyone out there that thinks that Douglas with a healthy shoulder may work out better? I mean after reading how bad his shoulder was after the season I can’t think anything less about the job he did last year. I mean he played through it the whole season and I think him coming in healed. Amar’e seems to be in epic shape and from everything I’ve read Melo is in the best shape of his career, it seems like everyone has their head screwed on straight except for Chauncey who is getting the boot.

    Superpumped for this season now, and I think things are shaping up for us to get off to a quick start and learning along the way. Honestly, I think we are going to win the division if these deals actually happen. Still curious to see how they are going to spend the MLE.

  79. The Formerly-Congenial Cock Jowles, #1 Gentleman

    JK47:
    We’re not going to need a PG once D’Antoni gets fired and Phil Jackson runs the triangle offense here.Ahem.

    Don’t tease me. According to Berri’s analysis, Phil Jackson’s one of the few coaches shown to have an impact on NBA players.

    We could be looking at a 60-win team.

  80. Spree8nyk8

    How hard is it going to be to move Turiaf? Is this going to be like a second round pick type thing? I can’t imagine he nets a first round pick. Who are we looking at doing that with?

  81. Spree8nyk8

    If Dwight goes to NJ quickly I will bet that the Paul to the Lakers trade is allowed. Apparently the owners wanted to stop the Lakers from acquiring both. Honestly, I kinda hope that if Dwight goes to NJ that they do allow that trade to happen. The Lakers won’t match up well with us at all.

  82. BigBlueAL

    I would be pretty worried about Howard possibly going to NJ, but if Knicks still do get Chandler I could care less. Well not could care less but it wont worry me as much lol

  83. Spree8nyk8

    I don’t fear the Nets all that much, I mean they’ll improve, but I think they are way far away from contending even if they get Howard. I mean it will make the Atlantic a tough division, but I still see NYK coming out on top there.

  84. JK47

    @101

    Ha. What assets are the Nets going to send to Orlando? They can’t trade their 2012 pick since they already shipped their unprotected #1 in 2011 to Utah, which turned into Enes Kanter. They could offer their 2013 pick I guess.

    They will probably try to pretend Brook Lopez is an asset, but he was godawful last year. Then there’s Anthony Morrow… Jordan Farmar… Um, is this thing on?

    D12 can go there as a free agent if he wants, but I’m sure there are a lot of teams that would give more for Howard as a rental than Orlando could possibly get from the Nets.

  85. JK47

    I forgot Marshon Brooks. Still, Marshon Brooks, Brook Lopez and a #1 pick in 2013, which would not be a lottery pick since the Nets would actually be good, seems like a very paltry haul.

  86. Robert Silverman

    JK47:
    @101

    Ha.What assets are the Nets going to send to Orlando?They can’t trade their 2012 pick since they already shipped their unprotected #1 in 2011 to Utah, which turned into Enes Kanter.They could offer their 2013 pick I guess.

    They will probably try to pretend Brook Lopez is an asset, but he was godawful last year.Then there’s Anthony Morrow… Jordan Farmar… Um, is this thing on?

    D12 can go there as a free agent if he wants, but I’m sure there are a lot of teams that would give more for Howard as a rental than Orlando could possibly get from the Nets.

    Melo/Paul principle. If that’s where the player wants to go…

    Oh and Stern already vetoed this rumor for basketball reasons.

  87. Spree8nyk8

    All I know is that Howard going to the Nets means Howard not forming a superteam in lakerland so I pray that it happens. Kobe/howard/paul would have been unstoppable and the last thing I wanna see is the Knicks become a team that can win the East but not the title.

  88. BigBlueAL

    Yeah, there should be a bunch of trade offers way better than the crap the Nets can offer (although they apparently will also be taking on Hedo’s bad contract too).

  89. Spree8nyk8

    I can’t understand the timing of Howard saying he wants to go to the Nets. This would be the PERFECT time for him to say I want the Lakers. The ego’s on the Lakers are so bruised right now the Magic could probably swing Bynum and Pau.

  90. JK47

    @113

    Yeah, that is strange. Especially considering that if the Lakers did in fact trade for Howard, they’d be shoo-ins to sign Paul as a free agent, leaving the NBA-owned Hornets with bupkis and the Lakers with a powerhouse. I don’t really get it.

  91. Spree8nyk8

    You think that Paul would sign with the Lakers for the MLE? I really can’t see that happening.

  92. Spree8nyk8

    It wouldn’t even be the MLE it would be the mini MLE. Experts were saying NY had no shot at signing paul on a deal starting at 13.5 and you think the Lakers would be a shoo in to sign him starting at like 4m?

  93. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I can’t understand the timing of Howard saying he wants to go to the Nets. This would be the PERFECT time for him to say I want the Lakers. The ego’s on the Lakers are so bruised right now the Magic could probably swing Bynum and Pau.

    And Howard makes a whole lot more sense on the Lakers than Paul does.

  94. JK47

    I would assume they’d move Gasol and Odom, then let Bynum walk as a free agent in 2012, leaving them cap room to sign Paul. Maybe my math is faulty, but CP3-Kobe-D12 would be their “Big 3″ in this scenario.

  95. Spree8nyk8

    JK47:
    I would assume they’d move Gasol and Odom, then let Bynum walk as a free agent in 2012, leaving them cap room to sign Paul.Maybe my math is faulty, but CP3-Kobe-D12 would be their “Big 3? in this scenario.

    Bynum still has a year AFTER this year on his contract. And how the Lakers would move Gasol and Odom without taking anything back I have no idea really. But even if that happens, they would still be capped out. Kobe+artest+capholds would cap them out as far as I know. I think Kobe makes like 30m. I know the Lakers current salary is north of 90m. So if it were 90m exactly they would have to shed 32m just to get to the cap, they would have to shed like 52m to get to where they could give Dwight a max deal. I mean that just isn’t going to happen. It takes years to shed salary to get to that point. Years of not being competitive ala the Knicks for 3 years before last offseason.

  96. steveoh

    Due to the sabotaging of the LA/NO trade by david stern, and following in the footsteps of my athlete brethern Metta World Peace and Chad Ochocinco, I’m changing my last name to “Stern’s Bi#&h” #effectiveimmediately

    Posted by: dgranger33 (Danny Granger)

  97. JK47

    Bynum is a team option after 2012, so they could decline the option. They could amnesty Metta W. Peace, trade Howard for Pau Gasol and be $10M or so under the cap… What’s killing them in this scenario is the absurdly awful contracts of Luke Walton ($6M in 2013) and Steve Blake ($4M in 2013). But yeah, you’re right, the CP3-Howard-Kobe triumvirate is probably a pipe dream no matter what they do.

  98. Spree8nyk8

    1) Howard for Pau Gasol would never happen.
    2) any salary Howard has will count towards the cap, so if the lakers are at 90m now and they shed 10m to Metta that leaves them at 80m. Which is still 22m over the cap. They decline the option for Bynum that sheds 15m leaving them 7m over the cap. Not seeing how it’s remotely possible for them to get anywhere near close to a reasonable free agent salary.

  99. Spree8nyk8

    Also any trade for Bynum to LA is DEFINITELY going to require them taking back Tergulo. That would be mandatory I’m fairly sure. That absolutely crushes any chance of the Lakers cutting payroll.

  100. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I think that that Gilbert letter is embarrassing. However, I think it is far more embarrassing that Stern actually caved to such ridiculous pressure.

  101. Z

    Wow, what a day! Less than an hour after the lockout officially ends, the league is facing another mutiny. This is really bad. The owners should have locked themselves out so that they ouldn’t screw their league up any worse.

    Look at this quote from a disgruntled exec (from Yahoo!):

    “We were all told by the league he was a trade-able player, and now they’re saying that Dell doesn’t have the authority to make the trade?” said an NBA executive who had periodic talks with New Orleans throughout the process. “Now, they’re saying that Dell is an idiot, that he can’t do it his job. [Expletive] this whole thing. David’s drunk on power, and he doesn’t give a [expletive] about the players, and he doesn’t give a [expletive] about the hundreds of hours the teams put in to make that deal.

    “How do the Lakers explain this to Odom? How does Houston deal with the guys it just tried to trade? Scola and Martin are going to be pissed at them, and who knows how long that takes to get over? Explain to me how the league kills this Pau Gasol deal, but allows Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol?

    “To me, this makes the league feel like it’s rigged, that Stern just does whatever Stern wants to do. He’s messed up the competitive balance of this league a lot worse by killing the deal, because you’ve completely destroyed the planning that New Orleans, Houston did and left them in shambles over this. I’ve never been so discouraged about this league, never so down.

    “I mean, come on: Chris Paul is leaving New Orleans in 66 games. He’s gone. And what’s Dell Demps, and that franchise, going to have to show for it?”

  102. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    As ridiculous as this is (and it is extremely ridiculous – so much so that I have to imagine that the trade will eventually still happen), the Gasol/Kwame comparison is a bit off. The NBA didn’t own the Grizzlies, so the other owners really did not have a say. The league does own the Hornets, so in theory the other owners do have a say. That they actually used that say is beyond outrageous, that Stern apparently squelched it without even an official veto by the other owners in unconscionable, but this is a different situation than the Kwame/Gasol deal.

  103. Z

    I just can’t believe the league is letting this play out, publicly, after a four month lockout. The eyes of the sports world were on them today– the first day back!– and this is what they do? It’s no wonder the owners are “losing money”. They are horrible at what they do.

    Re: Gilbert’s letter, what the hell is he talking about? Of course the Lakers are going to save money? How could they not, if they are trading the old CBA’s contracts for new ones? Chris Paul can’t legally make as much as Gasol, thanks to the changes Gilbert and the other band of hard liners demanded. He wants to have his cake and eat it too, I guess. Total loser.

  104. JK47

    This is just like a crushing death blow to the New Orleans Hornets. Someone on a Hornets blog said this: “The Hornets were in bad shape before the trade. Worse shape after the trade. And believe it or not, even worse shape after it was rejected.”

  105. Spree8nyk8

    Well I’m gonna play devils advocate for a second and focus on one point from the Gilbert letter that I think makes sense. This deal was not only going to bring the best pg in the league to the lakers, but it was also going to shed salary from them, which has the byproduct of lowering their luxury tax payment. So if I’m a small market owner and you are telling me that you want me to cosign on a trade that puts the best pg in the league on the Lakers AND takes money away from my team, I’m probably not ok with that. I mean was this a fair trade, sure, but it doesn’t really have to be fair when you are dealing with the Lakers. That is a team that you can, and should gouge. They have a 90m dollar payroll. 90!!! They are closer to being DOUBLE the cap than they are to being under the cap. If you are going to allow the Lakers to pluck the best player from a small market team they damn sure should be getting gouged. Not a fair trade. I am seriously hoping that Orlando gouges the hell out of them if they do end up shipping Howard there. This deal came way too easy to the Lakers and there is no way they should ever get Paul AND shed salary.

  106. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    He wants to have his cake and eat it too, I guess. Total loser.

    One of the best parts of the letter is when he specifically mentions how this will make it so that the Lakers pay less luxury tax. Huh? I thought the goal of this new deal was to keep teams from paying luxury tax?!? What a joke.

  107. Spree8nyk8

    What will that possibly accomplish? The league owns the Hornets and has the right to make or not make any personnel decision they wanna make. They can be angry, and they can be right, but they can’t win.

  108. jon abbey

    that trade made the Lakers worse if it didn’t end up being coupled with a Howard/Bynum move (far from a sure thing). someone said that this move by Stern was worse than the Donaghy thing, and I think that’s quite possible.

  109. Nick C.

    jon abbey: we should only be so lucky. and yeah, might be time to revive the old blog…

    ^ +1000 This is turnign into reality TV rather than a purported sports league. UGh and groan and after the Chandler thing had got me into the NBA again its back out again.

  110. Frank

    If you guys haven’t read Tim Donahue you really should (he’s the true hoop pacers blogger with a site nauseatingly named eightpointsnineseconds.com). He’s totally right when he tweeted to Stern that this is not the hill Stern wants to die on.

    Stern is probably one of the smartest guys alive but at the end of the day, he’s OLD. He may think he understands the new world of technology but the “new” media is something he obviously doesn’t understand and can’t come close to controlling. Twitter is like a mix of 100 volatile gases just waiting for any little tiny spark – there is no unsparking it after it explodes.

    If I were the players and really wanted to make some noise – I’d have the superstars – the guys who make money for this league – boycott practice. Back pain, leg pain, flu symptoms, whatever. Small market, big market, middle market. Have all the non-superstars show up so it’s not a strike, but create the threat of a non-star league and see what happens.

  111. Z-man

    Don’t think Lamar Odom or Pau Gasol would go along with it. They were probably devastated by the trade and doing cartwheels when it was vetoed.

  112. Frank

    Z-man:
    Don’t think Lamar Odom or Pau Gasol would go along with it.They were probably devastated by the trade and doing cartwheels when it was vetoed.

    I mean SUPERSTARS in the ticket-selling way. Pau/Odom are great players but not who I’m talking about. LBJ/Wade/Bosh as a unit. Melo/STAT. DRose. Durant/Westbrook. Howard. CP3 for sure. KOBE.

    Like Spree, I sort of see why it’s not a good trade for the Hornets. They don’t get any bona fide young studs, they only get 1 draft pick that will probably be in the 20s. For pete’s sake they didn’t even get Bynum, who is considered the best trade piece the Lakers have. From a fantasy sports perspective, this is the classic trade that ends up hurting the team that trades away the superstar. 1 A+ guy always trumps 3 B+ guys (although Gasol is arguably at least an A- guy). Even so- every team in the league has been throwing trade offers at Demps, this apparently was the best one on the table, and this isn’t THAT bad a trade. This is going to be ugly.

  113. Frank

    You know who comes out smelling even more like roses here? Lebron. Dan Gilbert has stabbed himself repeatedly in the chest, and made LBJ look smart for escaping him.

  114. Eternal OptiKnist

    I got up a bit late this morning and there’s no way i can catch up on the 100 comments here…so apologies in advance if this is a repeat of questions/commentary. I love the Chandler move…I HATE it at the price. $14MM per year for a soon-to-be-30 center who’s had a long history of injury? I get the upside and his usefulness..i know there are not a ton of good shot-blocking centers out there and its a good pickup. But $14MM, really?? Thats basically max..not good at all. Is this being done with an eye towards the new rule where you can waive a player and spread the cap hit over a period double +1 year the length of the contract? Why are we not offering Melo for Howard? How can we let the best center in the NBA join one of the best guards in the nba with the NETS????? This happens, we’re 2nd fiddle to the nets…big time! D-Will, DH12 and cap space??? that team is SCARY.

  115. SeeWhyDee77

    I do think that it’s a bit scary to have so much much money into a 4 & 5 with health questions. But I am all in on this one nonetheless. Hopefully Chandler’s desire to win will take over and he will sign for a little less with our Knicks. But u know what’s scary good about Chandler in NY? #1, Amar’e NEVER had a complimentary big beside him that has Chandler’s ability. Theoretically STAT could be even better with Chandler than he was pre-Melo. and #2..take a look at Melo’s stats during the Camby years. Specifically, 05-06 thru 07-08. It stands to reason that that we could get that Melo with less pressure to do everything when teamed with STAT and Chandler. He will have to pass more tho due to Billups’ impending departure. I’m comfortable with Douglas at the 1..but only if we somehow grab a useful back up. Stick Shump at the 2 and let him and Landry hold that position down. No Grant Hill. He’s great..and at 38 he more than impressed me out in Phoenix. But older guys don’t do to well in cold weather cities..look at Shaq. He did well in Phoenix (dry heat good for old bones), went to Boston and crashed. At this point Hill’s a medical marvel and I would love his contributions..but not at the 2 in NY. Better off stickin with the youngins and spendin that money elsewhere. We will need a vet at the 2..thas why it sucks to lose Mason..but we’ll be fine for the most part becuz Landry plays more like a vet. I’d say get Chandler, bring back JJ and both Williamses and hunt for a cheap PG..be really great if we could get Baron Davis if he is amnestied.

  116. Jackson

    Howard Beck article on the Tyson Chandler situation.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/sports/basketball/knicks-to-part-with-billups-and-add-chandler.html?_r=1&ref=sports

    Nothing really new, but it WILL be happening today. Personally, I’m excited about this team on the court, but definitely worried about financial flexibility going forward. But I guess that’s always going to be the case, unless you’re building strictly with young guys through the draft (impossible for us given the Isaiah pick trades) its impossible to have both a quality team and financial flexibility. Our best hope I guess is for the young players (Shumpert, ToneyD, Fields) to develop into either useful cogs or assets to acquire useful cogs or a major piece.

  117. max fisher-cohen

    Eternal OptiKnist: DH12 and cap space??? that team is SCARY.

    Not really. The nets will have the following next summer after this trade:

    1) Howard @ 18 million
    2) Williams @ 18 million
    3) Turkoglu @ 11.5 million
    4) Outlaw @ 7 million
    5) Petro @ 3.5 million

    Let’s say they amnesty Outlaw. They are still at $51 million in salaries, leaving them $8 million in cap space.

  118. twoseam2007

    I’m not really seeing it. Furthermore, with the addition of chandler to the frontcourt, we lose our vet leader PG in Billups. He’s getting near max money so we won’t have much to spend going forward other than exception money (Wilson Chandler?!). Plus, now that Ronny turiaf will be gone, guess who we’ll be seeing on the floor for 15-20 minutes a game….That’s RIGHT! Jared jeffries (Why God? why?)

  119. chastrio

    twoseam2007: I’m not really seeing it. Furthermore, with the addition of chandler to the frontcourt, we lose our vet leader PG in Billups. He’s getting near max money so we won’t have much to spend going forward other than exception money (Wilson Chandler?!). Plus, now that Ronny turiaf will be gone, guess who we’ll be seeing on the floor for 15-20 minutes a game….That’s RIGHT! Jared jeffries (Why God? why?)

    I don’t normally post on here to often, but I figured this was a good place to dust of the keyboard. I know JJ is not a huge fan favorite around here, but he actually played better on the floor with STAT than RT. The plus/minus of the two was actually quite substantial…

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