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Wednesday, August 27, 2014

Tyson Chandler to be Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year

According to Yahoo Sports’ Marc Spears, Tyson Chandler will be named the NBA Defensive Player of the Year tomorrow.

Chandler will be the first Knick player to ever win the award. He will be the first Knick player to win an individual NBA award since John Starks won the Sixth Man of the Year Award in 1996-97. The Knicks have only won six individual NBA awards (the aforementioned Starks plus Willis Reed won Rookie of the Year and MVP, Patrick Ewing and Mark Jackson both won Rookie of the Year and Anthony Mason also won Sixth Man of the Year).

Congrats to Tyson Chandler! A well deserved honor.

115 comments on “Tyson Chandler to be Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year

  1. max fisher-cohen

    Wow, that’s exciting. He deserves it, but I fully anticipated it being Ibaka due to OKC’s record and Ibaka’s better block numbers.

  2. Z-man

    Congrats to Chandler, maybe now that he is DPOY and has a defensive minded coach, we can start playing D like the Bulls, Heat and Celtics, i.e., all game, every game.

  3. massive

    Hmm, let’s review the individual awards/accolades the Knicks can get:
    Tyson Chandler: DPOY/All-NBA 2nd Team
    Jeremy Lin: MIP
    Iman Shumpert: All NBA 2nd team defense/All-Rookie 2nd team
    Carmelo Anthony: All NBA 2nd/3rd Team
    Steve Novak: 3 Point % Champion 2011-2012 (okay, so this award doesn’t really exist)

    This was a good year for the Knicks, individually. Too bad we got the Heat in the 1st round.

  4. heavencent35

    massive:
    Hmm, let’s review the individual awards/accolades the Knicks can get:
    Tyson Chandler: DPOY/All-NBA 2nd Team
    Jeremy Lin: MIP
    Iman Shumpert: All NBA 2nd team defense/All-Rookie 2nd team
    Carmelo Anthony: All NBA 2nd/3rd Team
    Steve Novak: 3 Point % Champion 2011-2012 (okay, so this award doesn’t really exist)

    This was a good year for the Knicks, individually. Too bad we got the Heat in the 1st round.

    imagine if we had Chicago!

  5. SeeWhyDee77

    I really think Tyson was the runaway favorite for this. Looks like the voters were really voting the correct way for this award. D Howard’s great, but this year the differential with him off the court..well when he misses games..is not as great as the Knicks’ numbers without Chandler. Add to that the fact his presence flat out lifted the knicks into the upper half defensively before Shump got goin..this was a no brainer. Tyson basically did for our defense what KG did in his 1st year in Boston. His numbers arent flashy, but his impact is undeniable. Nice work Tyson. Get healthy

  6. d-mar

    massive:
    Hmm, let’s review the individual awards/accolades the Knicks can get:
    Tyson Chandler: DPOY/All-NBA 2nd Team
    Jeremy Lin: MIP
    Iman Shumpert: All NBA 2nd team defense/All-Rookie 2nd team
    Carmelo Anthony: All NBA 2nd/3rd Team
    Steve Novak: 3 Point % Champion 2011-2012 (okay, so this award doesn’t really exist)

    This was a good year for the Knicks, individually. Too bad we got the Heat in the 1st round.

    That’s why I don’t get all the gloom and doom on this site. Too much focus on Amare (and yes, I get it, he has a huge contract) and not enough on the solid core we have going into next season. Sprinkle in some Grunwald free agent magic, and we might have a pretty damn good team next year.

  7. Z-man

    My concerns are as follows:
    Lin’s knee and inexperience
    Shump’s knee and inexperience
    Jeffries’ knee
    Amare’s back, defense, and psyche
    no b/u point guard, Baron and Bibby are toast
    Landry and TD are scrubs
    JR and Novak are probably gone
    No cap room
    Woodson’s lack of playoff success
    No draft picks
    Playoff humiliation hangover

    So for next year, our “solid” core is Chandler and Melo. Everything else is a major question mark.

  8. Brian Cronin

    Yep, pretty much.

    Even if Fields and Douglas rebound, the Knicks are going to have to get very lucky with players willing to play for the vet minimum (provided they lose Novak and JR, which does seem likely) for the team to really challenge for one of the top 4 seeds next season.

  9. Spree8nyk8

    d-mar: That’s why I don’t get all the gloom and doom on this site. Too much focus on Amare (and yes, I get it, he has a huge contract) and not enough on the solid core we have going into next season. Sprinkle in some Grunwald free agent magic, and we might have a pretty damn good team next year.

    Because for the most part Amar’e gave us less than zero this season, meaning that if he didn’t play this season he would have improved the team. And we are stuck with him. Couple that with the fact that we are going to lose most likely novak and smith who have actually been big for us and yeah, it’s not looking so good. And if by some miracle we pick up a couple of min guys next year that actually come in here and produce we’ll lose those guys after that season, and this will continue and continue because we gave 100m to the wrong guy. If we could find ANY way to dump him it would be the right thing to do.

    If we don’t find a way to move Amar’e this team is just not going to reach the point where we can ever get past Miami. Sucks to be us.

  10. d-mar

    Spree8nyk8: B

    If we don’t find a way to move Amar’e this team is just not going to reach the point where we can ever get past Miami.Sucks to be us.

    Well, if getting past Miami in the next few years is the benchmark for success or failure, then it sucks to be Boston, Chicago, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Philadelphia and Indiana too.

  11. daJudge

    Really, really disappointed in your reaction Brian. Wow. To me, this is wonderful and well-deserved. It’s a part of building a team, not a collective of individuals. Why can’t we all just focus on building a competitive team that plays fundamental ball and is awesome on D, not for a year, but as a philosophy. How anyone can turn this into a negative is just amazing. Major boo to you.

    Brian Cronin:
    Yep, pretty much.

    Even if Fields and Douglas rebound, the Knicks are going to have to get very lucky with players willing to play for the vet minimum (provided they lose Novak and JR, which does seem likely) for the team to really challenge for one of the top 4 seeds next season.

  12. Juany8

    d-mar: Well, if getting past Miami in the next few years is the benchmark for success or failure, then it sucks to be Boston, Chicago, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Philadelphia and Indiana too.

    Especially since none of those teams has Chandler (how has nobody mentioned that out best player, and the Heat killer last year in the Finals, has been pretty ineffective so far because of the freaking flu) Look sometimes everything goes absolutely wrong in a season, and at that point you just have to gut out the rest and hope to come back stronger next year. I think everyone can agree that everything that has gone wrong with this team did go wrong, that can’t happen again next year can it?

  13. Z-man

    Judge,
    Can you seriously tell me that you feel as optimistic now as you did when the year started? If so, you win the rose-colored glasses award. I’m not in THCJ territory, but this team is so full of question marks, it is hard to get too excited about it’s short-term future. Hopefully Shump makes a speedy and full recovery, Landry improves, Lin rediscovers Linsanity, Jeffries’ knee gets better, Amare’s back and attitude improves, etc. etc. but one thing has been clearly established: all the optimism going into this year set diehards up for one of the most disappointing years in the last dozen, considering we were debating whether we were a top 3 team in the east or not when the year started. Hard for me to get over the train wreck this year has become, especially with no draft picks or cap room, but I’ll try.

  14. DRed

    I wasn’t really disappointed in this season because I didn’t expect us to be very good, and there were some nice surprises along the way (Lin, my man Novak). The one thing that wasn’t surprising was how good Tyson was. Nice to see the big man get some national recognition.

  15. Z-man

    Juany8: Especially since none of those teams has Chandler (how has nobody mentioned that out best player, and the Heat killer last year in the Finals, has been pretty ineffective so far because of the freaking flu) Look sometimes everything goes absolutely wrong in a season, and at that point you just have to gut out the rest and hope to come back stronger next year. I think everyone can agree that everything that has gone wrong with this team did go wrong, that can’t happen again next year can it?

    But everything didn’t go wrong…JR, Novak and Lin came out of the blue, Shump exceeded the expectations of most here, and JJ played great for long stretches. Look, I’ll concede that we will probably have a higher playoff seed next year and get a few wins, but we’re just not competing with the Heat unless LBJ or Wade goes down; in fact, they (and Chicago, Indiana, and maybe the Sixers and Celts) might improve more than we do next year.

  16. Juany8

    Z-man: But everything didn’t go wrong…JR, Novak and Lin came out of the blue, Shump exceeded the expectations of most here, and JJ played great for long stretches. Look, I’ll concede that we will probably have a higher playoff seed next year and get a few wins, but we’re just not competing with the Heat unless LBJ or Wade goes down; in fact, they (and Chicago, Indiana, and maybe the Sixers and Celts) might improve more than we do next year.

    Everything didn’t go wrong? Game 1 our whole starting back court went down. Our only back up big man (Jeffries) is injured and not playing. We’re playing Mike Bibby in the freaking playoffs, and now Amar’e is out because he cut himself. Chandler had one of the worst statistical games ever in game 1 because of the flu, and was still on limited minutes in game 2. Seriously, as soon as Chandler was neutered for half the series, everyone else might as well have stayed at home. It’s really silly to pretend the team going up against the Heat is going to be half as good as any healthy team we have next year, an older Lin and Shump are going to be a big help too (unless you think players like Jordan, Jorts, Shump, and Lin peaked as rookies in a compressed season)

  17. Brian Cronin

    Really, really disappointed in your reaction Brian. Wow. To me, this is wonderful and well-deserved. It’s a part of building a team, not a collective of individuals. Why can’t we all just focus on building a competitive team that plays fundamental ball and is awesome on D, not for a year, but as a philosophy. How anyone can turn this into a negative is just amazing. Major boo to you.

    I really don’t think anything I wrote there was particularly controversial. Even with everyone returning and healthy, the Knicks are not as good as Miami or Chicago (at least not over a full season – they could beat them in a seven game series, but over an 82 game season they’re not going to pass them). So that right off the bat has the Knicks competing for either the #3 or the #4 seed next year. Then you take out JR and Novak and Shump for the beginning of the year. So you do all of that, and you still think the Knicks are going to really challenge for the #3 or the #4 seed without getting lucky on players willing to play for the vet minimum? It’s not like I’m saying they won’t challenge, they will just need to get lucky with vets the way they did with Novak and JR to do so. I don’t believe that’s negative.

  18. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Juany8: Everything didn’t go wrong? Game 1 our whole starting back court went down. Our only back up big man (Jeffries) is injured and not playing. We’re playing Mike Bibby in the freaking playoffs, and now Amar’e is out because he cut himself. Chandler had one of the worst statistical games ever in game 1 because of the flu, and was still on limited minutes in game 2. Seriously, as soon as Chandler was neutered for half the series, everyone else might as well have stayed at home. It’s really silly to pretend the team going up against the Heat is going to be half as good as any healthy team we have next year, an older Lin and Shump are going to be a big help too (unless you think players like Jordan, Jorts, Shump, and Lin peaked as rookies in a compressed season)

    Maybe what went wrong was building the team around a core of players (outside of Chandler) who are not nearly good enough to carry a team to the Finals. We lucked out with Lin, and we’ll probably never have an experience like that again. Everything else is a wash.

    Oh, and remember that they likely will not have their 2012, 2014, and 2016 first round picks, and once they package Amar’e for cents on the dollar, they probably won’t have the 2018 or 2020 first rounders either.

  19. Spree8nyk8

    Brian Cronin: I really don’t think anything I wrote there was particularly controversial. Even with everyone returning and healthy, the Knicks are not as good as Miami or Chicago (at least not over a full season – they could beat them in a seven game series, but over an 82 game season they’re not going to pass them). So that right off the bat has the Knicks competing for either the #3 or the #4 seed next year. Then you take out JR and Novak and Shump for the beginning of the year. So you do all of that, and you still think the Knicks are going to really challenge for the #3 or the #4 seed without getting lucky on players willing to play for the vet minimum? It’s not like I’m saying they won’t challenge, they will just need to get lucky with vets the way they did with Novak and JR to do so. I don’t believe that’s negative.

    There is nothing wrong with what you wrote, I still think we could keep Smith and Novak by doing a trade like I suggested earlier today but everyone seems to think that even Brooklyn who is about to be completely starless when they move into their new building would be unwilling to take on Amar’e. Personally I think they would but maybe I’m wrong.

  20. Doug

    Spree8nyk8: If we could find ANY way to dump him it would be the right thing to do.

    Yeah, let’s trade Amare when his value is low! That’s EXACTLY what the Knicks should do.

  21. Juany8

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Maybe what went wrong was building the team around a core of players (outside of Chandler) who are not nearly good enough to carry a team to the Finals. We lucked out with Lin, and we’ll probably never have an experience like that again. Everything else is a wash.

    Oh, and remember that they likely will not have their 2012, 2014, and 2016 first round picks, and once they package Amar’e for cents on the dollar, they probably won’t have the 2018 or 2020 first rounders either.

    Better than building around Kenneth Faried, who’s getting outplayed by Jordan Hill right now. Their whole team is intact, they’re actually getting more free throws than the Lakers on the road, and yet they’re getting blown out by a team with a lower SRS. But hey, maybe Gallo, Lawson, and Faried will magically turn into good defenders one day.

    That being said, it’s pathetic that D’Antoni just threw away Corey Brewer for nothing last year. I’d take him over Fields easily, such a quick, energetic player and a pretty solid defender. He was on the team and D’Antoni apparently couldn’t find a use for him. Such an overrated coach…

  22. Brian Cronin

    That being said, it’s pathetic that D’Antoni just threw away Corey Brewer for nothing last year. I’d take him over Fields easily, such a quick, energetic player and a pretty solid defender. He was on the team and D’Antoni apparently couldn’t find a use for him. Such an overrated coach…

    Huh? Corey Brewer had no future with the Knicks. He was a free agent this past offseason. If they had signed him, they would not have been able to sign Chandler.

  23. jon abbey

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Maybe what went wrong was building the team around a core of players (outside of Chandler) who are not nearly good enough to carry a team to the Finals.

    who exactly would have been good enough to carry a team to the Finals over Miami?

  24. jon abbey

    Juany8: Better than building around Kenneth Faried, who’s getting outplayed by Jordan Hill right now. Their whole team is intact, they’re actually getting more free throws than the Lakers on the road, and yet they’re getting blown out by a team with a lower SRS. But hey, maybe Gallo, Lawson, and Faried will magically turn into good defenders one day.

    That being said, it’s pathetic that D’Antoni just threw away Corey Brewer for nothing last year. I’d take him over Fields easily, such a quick, energetic player and a pretty solid defender. He was on the team and D’Antoni apparently couldn’t find a use for him. Such an overrated coach…

    yep, agreed on all of that, although we would have had to dump Brewer for cap space to fit in Chandler anyway, so moot point.

  25. Spree8nyk8

    Doug: Yeah, let’s trade Amare when his value is low! That’s EXACTLY what the Knicks should do.

    Yeah, actually it is. You are making it sound like there will ever be another time to trade him.

  26. Juany8

    Brian Cronin: Huh? Corey Brewer had no future with the Knicks. He was a free agent this past offseason. If they had signed him, they would not have been able to sign Chandler.

    Would have helped last year against Boston anyways, when the Knicks were playing Roger Mason and Bill Walker in crunch time. Honestly didn’t know he was a free agent though.

  27. Brian Cronin

    Would have helped last year against Boston anyways, when the Knicks were playing Roger Mason and Bill Walker in crunch time. Honestly didn’t know he was a free agent though.

    That was one of the worst aspects of the Melo trade. The T-Wolves basically got Anthony Randolph purely by paying Curry’s contract for a couple of months, since Brewer was leaving as a free agent anyways. The Knicks couldn’t even get a freaking second round pick from Minny. I do agree that it was silly of them to cut Brewer to take a flier on Derrick Brown. But Brewer was never going to stay a Knick.

  28. jon abbey

    Juany8: Would have helped last year against Boston anyways, when the Knicks were playing Roger Mason and Bill Walker in crunch time. Honestly didn’t know he was a free agent though.

    Dallas signed him to a 3 year/$8M deal two days after we released him.

    the important thing to take out of your post is that D’Antoni sucked, though. :)

  29. Juany8

    Brian Cronin: That was one of the worst aspect of the Melo trade. The T-Wolves basically got Anthony Randolph purely by paying Curry’s contract for a couple of months, since Brewer was leaving as a free agent. I do agree that it was silly of them to cut Brewer to take a flier on Derrick Brown. But Brewer was never going to stay a Knick.

    Also worth considering that they might have picked up a second round pick for him in a sign and trade or something. Hell, Dallas ended up picking him up and then pretty much benching him the whole season, you never just throw away assets like that.

  30. Juany8

    Brian Cronin:
    But Dallas then did just that, they threw him away to Denver.

    Exactly, they got a pick just for signing him. Sure it’s not a high pick, but the Knicks just threw him away and then watched every elite team in the league chase hard after him. Even a team that had no use for him on the court obtained some value from him

  31. Brian Cronin

    They didn’t get a real pick. They got a fake pick for Brewer and Rudy Fernandez, like the one the Suns got from the Knicks for Amar’e. You know, a conditional second round pick where the condition will almost certainly never actually happen, used just so that the deal could be approved by the league since they are technically trading a pick (the Knicks got a similar conditional pick from the Celtics for Nate Robinson).

    The Mavs just wanted to dump Brewer and Fernandez because they felt they needed the roster spots for Vince Carter and Delonte West.

  32. Juany8

    Brian Cronin:
    They didn’t get a real pick. They got a fake pick for Brewer and Rudy Fernandez, like the one the Suns got from the Knicks for Amar’e. You know, a conditional second round pick where the condition will almost certainly never actually happen, used just so that the deal could be approved by the league since they are technically trading a pick (the Knicks got a similar conditional pick from the Celtics for Nate Robinson).

    The Mavs just wanted to dump Brewer and Fernandez because they felt they needed the roster spots for Vince Carter and Delonte West.

    Oh I honestly thought the pick was legit, I didn’t look into the trade super closely. Knicks didn’t exactly have 12 capable players on the roster though, and wouldn’t Dallas at least get a trade exception in that scenario? I’m really not trying to argue that Brewer is a good player or that letting him go set the franchise back or anything, just that it’s a shame a solid young player was thrown away for basically no reason, without a reasonable replacement in place

  33. hoolahoop

    Anything can be turned into a “positive”. I believe Amare will turn this incident into a positive situation. In reality the knicks lost Amare for two, maybe three, meaningless games.
    Amare’s generally a good guy with a good attitude. He’s going to work hard on his game during the off season and come back more focused and determined than ever. Anyone counting him out is underestimating him.

  34. Brian Cronin

    Oh I honestly thought the pick was legit, I didn’t look into the trade super closely. Knicks didn’t exactly have 12 capable players on the roster though, and wouldn’t Dallas at least get a trade exception in that scenario? I’m really not trying to argue that Brewer is a good player or that letting him go set the franchise back or anything, just that it’s a shame a solid young player was thrown away for basically no reason, without a reasonable replacement in place

    Again, though, he was dumped because Derrick Brown was waived right after the Melo trade and the Knicks liked him better than they liked Brewer. So it wasn’t like they dumped Brewer for no reason at all. They dumped him because they had a replacement (just like how Dallas dumped him because they had Carter/West coming in).

    That said, don’t get me wrong, I agree that I would have preferred them to keep Brewer instead of Brown. I was only taking issue with the idea that they wasted Brewer. I don’t think he was wasted since no one was going to give the Knicks anything real for Brewer. Remember, Minnesota tried to trade him for awhile and found no takers. If the Knicks had not picked him up as filler the Wolves were planning on just cutting him.

    Teams will gladly pick up a guy on waivers that they’d never actually trade anything for, ya know? And then this offseason, the only way the Mavericks could find a taker for him and Fernandez was to literally give them away to the Nuggets. So I just don’t think there was anything to waste about Brewer. No one was going to trade for him and he was going to leave as a free agent after the season no matter what

    Luckily for him, he has played well enough in Denver (really, the first place where he has played well for a whole season) that he finally does have some trade value (well, obviously he had a lot of trade value right before his rookie season, but that doesn’t count, right? Since no one had seen him actually play in the NBA yet).

  35. ruruland

    hoolahoop:
    I believe Amare will turn this incident into a positive situation.In reality the knicks lost Amare for two, maybe three, meaningless games.

    Wow.

  36. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, come on, hoolahoop. The Knicks win Game 3 and suddenly it is a real series. This thing is not over. It is not like the Knicks got their asses kicked last night. As Pat Riley liked to say, a series doesn’t even really begin until a home team loses a game.

  37. jon abbey

    ruruland: Wow.

    I know, pretty amazing. I loved Amare in Phoenix, was happy when he signed here (flaws and all), but this is two years in a row he’s knocked himself out of the playoffs with a self-inflicted injury. I’ve never been a huge Melo fan, but how anyone can still be attacking Melo and defending Amare really boggles my mind.

  38. 2FOR18

    jon abbey: I know, pretty amazing. I loved Amare in Phoenix, was happy when he signed here (flaws and all), but this is two years in a row he’s knocked himself out of the playoffs with a self-inflicted injury. I’ve never been a huge Melo fan, but how anyone can still be attacking Melo and defending Amare really boggles my mind.

    Re: melo, what he did the last game is basically a typical melo game. 30 pts, 9 boards, on 12-26 shooting from a guy who plays OK D – that’s the kind of game we can expect from our best player who takes up 1/3 of our cap. Once in while he will hit a few more 20 footers. Yay. God for fucking bid we have a real max type 2 way player on the Knicks. The only reason we’re in the playoffs is that we lucked into Lin.

  39. nicos

    jon abbey: I know, pretty amazing. I loved Amare in Phoenix, was happy when he signed here (flaws and all), but this is two years in a row he’s knocked himself out of the playoffs with a self-inflicted injury. I’ve never been a huge Melo fan, but how anyone can still be attacking Melo and defending Amare really boggles my mind.

    I don’t know- Amar’e didn’t like the way things were going and punched a wall. When Melo didn’t like the way things were going he quit playing defense, openly broke plays, and sabotaged a coach. the coach thing may have wound up being a plus but the first two are far, far, worse than what Amar’e did- no way Amar’e intended to injure himself while Melo intentionally undermined the team ON THE COURT and not just for one game. Look if I have to trade one of them I’m trading Amar’e because I’m not sure he’ll ever be healthy but you’re never going to convince me that somehow Melo’s now a good guy and Amar’e is a jerk.

  40. ruruland

    nicos: I don’t know- Amar’e didn’t like the way things were going and punched a wall.When Melo didn’t like the way things were going he quit playing defense, openly broke plays, and sabotaged a coach.the coach thing may have wound up being a plus but the first two are far, far, worse than what Amar’e did- no way Amar’e intended to injure himself while Melo intentionally undermined the team ON THE COURT and not just for one game.Look if I have to trade one of them I’m trading Amar’e because I’m not sure he’ll ever be healthy but you’re never going to convince me that somehow Melo’s now a good guy and Amar’e is a jerk.

    was Melo the only one not playing defense to his full ability or were their others? Does Melo playing harder on defense make a 5-7pt difference in efficiency against a much harder schedule????

    Does Amar’e sabotage the offense when he refuses to cut toward the basket when Melo creates defensive attention, does not appear ready to catch the ball??? Does Amar’e fully embrace an offense where he is unable to get 16-18 shots a game?

    Secondly, was Melo truly sabotaging the offense when he would ask for the ball on the post when the offense was struggling and the team mired in a losing streak in part because of the offense was struggling????

    Should the player you traded your future for and who willingly accepted the responsbility of its fate be content with standing in the corner waiting for the occasional pass to stay within the rigid confines of the offense when the team is losing game after game???

  41. ruruland

    If Amar’e were to demand the ball on the floor right now, given the Knicks struggles on offense, would that be looked at sabatoging the offense???

    I don’t think so.

  42. Shad0wF0x

    In terms of draft picks, does anyone else think that the entire thing should be changed? If it were up to me the 17th best team in the NBA (Best record not making the playoffs) should get the 1st pick. It’ll go down from there record wise for the next 14 teams, with the worst record getting the 14th pick. In terms of playoff teams, the 8 teams that are knocked out of the 1st round will get picks based on whoever had the better record. In this case, the team with the best record amongst the aforementioned 8 will get the 15 pick and so on. This will continue until we give the Champion the 30th pick and the Runner-Up the 29th pick.

    So if I predict this correctly the non-playoff teams should go as such.

    1 – Houston Rockets
    2 – Phoenix Suns
    3 – Milwaukee Bucks
    4 – Portland Trailblazers
    5 – Minnesota Timberwolves
    6 – Detroit Pistons
    7/8 – Toronto Raptors/Golden State Warriors (whoever won the tie breaker gets higher)
    9/10 – New Jersey Nets/Sacramento Kings (whoever won the tie breaker gets higher)
    11/12 – New Orleans Hornets/ Cleveland Cavaliers (whoever won the tie breaker gets higher)
    13 – Washington Wizards
    14 – Charlotte Hornets

    This will fix the entire tanking the rest of the season issue and will punish the bad teams even more. I know that there is the problem of how those bad teams are supposed to improve themselves but I think this is just the better way to award the teams that play better.

    This is my opinion of just how the playoffs will work itself out based on the games played so far. I may be wrong or right but this is just for the sake of the list.

    1st round exit

    15 – Chicago Bulls
    16 – Los Angeles Clippers
    17 – Boston Celtics
    18 – Denver Nuggets
    19 – Orlando Magic
    20/21/22 – New York Knicks/Dallas Mavericks/Utah Jazz (whoever won the tie breaker gets higher)

    2nd round exit

    23 – Oklahoma City Thunder
    24 – Indiana Pacers
    25 – Memphis Grizzles
    26 – Philadelphia 76ers

    27 – Los Angeles Lakers
    28 – Atlanta…

  43. Shad0wF0x

    This system might make tanking problem though if a team decides that it wants to be the 17th best team instead of the last playoff position. Still, it’s not as bad as the Golden State and Charlotte intentional tanking that has occurred in the last month or so.

  44. Brian Cronin

    That wouldn’t discourage tanking, it would raise it to a whole new level. Currently, the only way you would tank is if you were already not going to make the playoffs. Your system would encourage good teams to intentionally lose. To wit, the Knicks would be much better off losing to get one of the top few picks in the draft than to get the #8 seed. And unlike the current system, where tanking doesn’t even assure you anything, the Knicks losing in that scenario would guarantee them a good pick.

    Honestly, there is no good way to get rid of tanking. It is just a slight downside to what is otherwise an extremely fair system.

    EDITED TO ADD: Charlotte had the worst record in the NBA by a huge margin. They were not tanking. The difference between the Bobcats and the next worst team was the same difference between the Knicks and the Bulls. They were just plain ol’ bad.

  45. Shad0wF0x

    I’ve been trying to figure out how to make the pick differential larger between the 17th rank team and the last 8th seed but I can’t figure anything out right now.

  46. Shad0wF0x

    What if they installed a reverse lottery? Where the Rockets would get the most balls and the Bobcats the least? It’s still only a 25% chance for the Rockets to get the #1.

  47. Brian Cronin

    What i don’t understand is why you want the #17 team to get a benefit. If you give the #17 team a benefit, it just encourages teams to avoid getting the #8 seed. If there was a benefit to the #17 seed, do you think Phoenix, Houston and Utah would have been fighting so hard that last week?

    I guess you could do something where, like, team #23 has the best chance to win the lottery. I suppose that would discourage tanking if teams number #22, 23 and 24 got the most ping pong balls. Then #25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 and then #21, 20, 19, 18, 17. That’s awfully complicated, though.

  48. Spree8nyk8

    Brian Cronin:
    Yeah, come on, hoolahoop. The Knicks win Game 3 and suddenly it is a real series. This thing is not over. It is not like the Knicks got their asses kicked last night. As Pat Riley liked to say, a series doesn’t even really begin until a home team loses a game.

    Finally

  49. Brian Cronin

    By the way, teams #22-24 would be Golden State, Detroit and Toronto. Golden State did tank, but that was for a very specific reason unrelated to the lottery.

    Detroit and Toronto are actually good examples of teams you’d like to win the lottery. They were bad but not intentionally so.

  50. nicos

    ruruland: was Melo the only one not playing defense to his full ability or were their others? Does Melo playing harder on defense make a 5-7pt difference in efficiency against a much harder schedule????

    Does Amar’e sabotage the offense when he refuses to cut toward the basket when Melo creates defensive attention, does not appear ready to catch the ball??? Does Amar’e fully embrace an offense where he is unable to get 16-18 shots a game?

    Secondly, was Melo truly sabotaging the offense when he would ask for the ball on the post when the offense was struggling and the team mired in a losing streak in part because of the offense was struggling????

    Should the player you traded your future for and who willingly accepted the responsbility of its fate be content with standing in the corner waiting for the occasional pass to stay within the rigid confines of the offense when the team is losing game after game???

    Melo blew things up after three losses- to Boston (with a last second three by Pierce), and back to back losses on the road to two good teams- Dallas and SA. And he led the Knicks in shot attempts in two of them! The Knicks had one bad offensive game in those three- against Dallas, they scored 103 against Boston in regulation and 105 against the Spurs- both solidly better than their season’s average. If you’re not trying on defense and openly breaking plays- you’re not trying to help the team win no matter how you want to spin things. I don’t think he was throwing games to try to get D’A fired and he probably did believe that getting the ball in the post was better than someone else running a pnr- my point was that while the consequences of Amar’e's petulance are pretty bad (and inexcusable), the idea that his behavior was worse than Melo’s as Abbey suggested is wrong IMO.

  51. Spree8nyk8

    Jeez, the NBA already has a better system in place to guard against tanking than any of the other leagues. I mean realistically who cares if a team tanks to get a “chance” at the number 1 pick. It’s not like truly good teams are going to do it. Honestly, if I could change any single thing about the NBA it would be to make contracts be non guaranteed or severely shortened. It really sucks to see teams sign players to large contracts and then be stuck because something happens with that player. The Knicks have such a good core in place except for Amar’es contract and eddy curry before that. One guy ate his way into oblivion and the other guy simply doesn’t fit. But bc contracts are guaranteed we are stuck with a situation like this. I mean at a minimum all NBA contracts should include a team option at the midpoint. I just really hate this situation because it’s not just bad for us, it’s bad for Amar’e as well. He could thrive on a team more suited for him. But he’s a bad fit here.

  52. Shad0wF0x

    I dunno. I just want a system that doesn’t reward the worst team in the NBA with the #1 pick. Something about that just seems wrong to me.

    Yeah I saw Detroit play a couple of times this year and I’d actually like that team to improve.

  53. Shad0wF0x

    On the subject of contracts I would favor something like so. In Tennis, the farther you get into the tournament, the higher your pay is. So let’s say Amar’e has a maximum potential of $20 in a given year. Let’s say that he is guaranteed $10 Mil for just the regular season. It goes up to $12 if they make the playoffs. $14 2nd round. $16 ECF. $20 Championship.

    Of course the Player’s Association will never agree to this but still. Out of all the sports, I like Tennis’ win more get more policy the best.

  54. nicos

    For the record I hope Melo scores fifty and we win on Thursday- every time he takes a shot I’m hoping it goes in, every time he d’s up LBJ I hope he gets a stop. I hope he winds up being the centerpiece to a championship just like you- I just think he behaved really selfishly earlier in the year- Amar’e was more stupid than selfish.

  55. Spree8nyk8

    Shad0wF0x:
    I dunno. I just want a system that doesn’t reward the worst team in the NBA with the #1 pick. Something about that just seems wrong to me.

    Yeah I saw Detroit play a couple of times this year and I’d actually like that team to improve.

    I’ll tell you what you would actually like, which would be for us to have a system similar to what they have in the european soccer leagues. Over there they have a top league and then a lower league. And the bottom 3 teams at the end of the season move down to the league beneath them and the top 3 teams of that league come up. They should do something similar for the NBA. If your team sucks, welcome to the D league, you can earn your way back next season.

  56. Shad0wF0x

    @69.

    Heh. That would be interesting. The teams at the bottom would be desperately fighting to be in the NBA so that their minimum salaries wouldn’t be so low. If you’re in the bottom of the NBA at the end of the season, say hello to a $30,000 paycheck for the year.

  57. Spree8nyk8

    nicos:
    For the record I hope Melo scores fifty and we win on Thursday- every time he takes a shot I’m hoping it goes in, every time he d’s up LBJ I hope he gets a stop.I hope he winds up being the centerpiece to a championship just like you- I just think he behaved really selfishly earlier in the year- Amar’e was more stupid than selfish.

    I share this sentiment as much as a person can. I’ve had so many arguments with people over this exact thing. When Melo tanked to get MDA out and all the people that hated MDA were happy about it I was livid, not because I liked MDA but because in my opinion if you are a player you have one job, to come in and play hard every single day. Great players have no problem doing that. And all i’d hear is “well MDA wasn’t using him properly”. This is not a valid excuse. We lost 19 out of 23 of the games melo played in prior to the coaching change. If he wins one more game we would be playing Indiana right now. If he manages to help us go 8-15 in that same period we would have won the division. But instead he tanked, to get a coach out that wouldn’t have been here next year most likely anyway. So now we are in a bad matchup even though we closed the season with our best stretch of the year. If we had been able to avoid this matchup we probably could have faced them at full strength later on in the playoffs. Could have been really fun to see how that would have gone down. If we could have faced them at 100%, with some confidence. But THIS situation is what they deserved. Nobody did this to them.

  58. nicos

    Spree8nyk8: I’ll tell you what you would actually like, which would be for us to have a system similar to what they have in the european soccer leagues.Over there they have a top league and then a lower league.And the bottom 3 teams at the end of the season move down to the league beneath them and the top 3 teams of that league come up.They should do something similar for the NBA.If your team sucks, welcome to the D league, you can earn your way back next season.

    The problem is those small market franchises are having enough trouble turning a profit- under that scenario one bad season would be enough to doom a franchise. And the NBA doesn’t want teams in D league cities like Rochester or Rapid City because it’d hurt the national television contracts even if they were able to draw fans to home games.

  59. 2FOR18

    They should just go back to the way it was at the beginning of the lottery – every team in it has an equal chance. Sure we may get a repeat of when Orlando got the 1st pick 2 straight years, but it’s better than tankapolooza.

  60. jon abbey

    nicos: I don’t know- Amar’e didn’t like the way things were going and punched a wall.When Melo didn’t like the way things were going he quit playing defense, openly broke plays, and sabotaged a coach.the coach thing may have wound up being a plus but the first two are far, far, worse than what Amar’e did- no way Amar’e intended to injure himself while Melo intentionally undermined the team ON THE COURT and not just for one game.Look if I have to trade one of them I’m trading Amar’e because I’m not sure he’ll ever be healthy but you’re never going to convince me that somehow Melo’s now a good guy and Amar’e is a jerk.

    um, Amare was worse than Melo all season long (under D’Antoni, under Woodson, didn’t matter), and he gets paid just as much. was he undermining D’Antoni too, or was D’Antoni just totally inflexible? pretty obvious that it was the latter.

    and why do people think that Melo sabotaged D’Antoni and Amare didn’t? because of one offhand quote, which was far from a definitive statement? pretty silly, but whatever.

  61. jon abbey

    2FOR18: Re: melo, what he did the last game is basically a typical melo game. 30 pts, 9 boards, on 12-26 shooting from a guy who plays OK D – that’s the kind of game we can expect from our best player who takes up 1/3 of our cap. Once in while he will hit a few more 20 footers. Yay.God for fucking bid we have a real max type 2 way player on the Knicks.

    I still don’t think people realize how short the list of those players actually is.

  62. jon abbey

    and one of them (Dwight Howard) did way more to sabotage his team this year than Melo did.

  63. 2FOR18

    ruruland: was Melo the only one not playing defense to his full ability or were their others? Does Melo playing harder on defense make a 5-7pt difference in efficiency against a much harder schedule????

    Does Amar’e sabotage the offense when he refuses to cut toward the basket when Melo creates defensive attention, does not appear ready to catch the ball??? Does Amar’e fully embrace an offense where he is unable to get 16-18 shots a game?

    Secondly, was Melo truly sabotaging the offense when he would ask for the ball on the post when the offense was struggling and the team mired in a losing streak in part because of the offense was struggling????

    Should the player you traded your future for and who willingly accepted the responsbility of its fate be content with standing in the corner waiting for the occasional pass to stay within the rigid confines of the offense when the team is losing game after game???

    Man, I really hope you’re getting compensated in some way for this, or else it’s just really sad.

  64. Spree8nyk8

    nicos: The problem is those small market franchises are having enough trouble turning a profit- under that scenario one bad season would be enough to doom a franchise.And the NBA doesn’t want teams in D league cities like Rochester or Rapid City because it’d hurt the national television contracts even if they were able to draw fans to home games.

    Doesn’t really have to be D league really. I mean they could expand the NBA to say 40 teams, possibly by adding some international teams. Then first year bottom 12 teams go into the lower nba. And after that you start your rotations. Toughest part would be figuring out how the NBA draft would work, maybe have all the teams in the lower league and the non playoff teams from the upper league go into a lottery and draft in lottery order. Then the playoff teams go according to record. And I mean sure at first people would hate it because they would be dropping out of the upper league, but I mean if you are a fan of a small market team and you get dropped into the lower league then at least the next year you’d be playing in a league that you could actually win.

    I mean it’s never going to happen but it does work in europe.

  65. jon abbey

    and as long as I’m posting, I don’t personally see a need to fix tanking, but the fix seems pretty easy: if you miss the playoffs, you get one ball in the lottery, whether you’re 17th or 30th.

  66. 2FOR18

    jon abbey: I still don’t think people realize how short the list of those players actually is.

    I think there are are at least 50 players in the league that can score 30 pts on 26 shots and play OK defense.

  67. 2FOR18

    jon abbey:
    and as long as I’m posting, I don’t personally see a need to fix tanking, but the fix seems pretty easy: if you miss the playoffs, you get one ball in the lottery, whether you’re 17th or 30th.

    Hey, that’s what I said :)

  68. Spree8nyk8

    jon abbey: um, Amare was worse than Melo all season long (under D’Antoni, under Woodson, didn’t matter), and he gets paid just as much. was he undermining D’Antoni too, or was D’Antoni just totally inflexible? pretty obvious that it was the latter.

    and why do people think that Melo sabotaged D’Antoni and Amare didn’t? because of one offhand quote, which was far from a definitive statement? pretty silly, but whatever.

    I thought it was both of them also, i just thought it was melo to a bigger extent. Or maybe that it was both prior to Linsanity, but moreso Melo after it. Either way they hurt the team badly during that time.

  69. Spree8nyk8

    2FOR18: I think there are are at least 50 players in the league that can score 30 pts on 26 shots and play OK defense.

    He’s talking about real max guys….

  70. nicos

    jon abbey: um, Amare was worse than Melo all season long (under D’Antoni, under Woodson, didn’t matter), and he gets paid just as much. was he undermining D’Antoni too, or was D’Antoni just totally inflexible? pretty obvious that it was the latter.

    and why do people think that Melo sabotaged D’Antoni and Amare didn’t? because of one offhand quote, which was far from a definitive statement? pretty silly, but whatever.

    They both had crappy seasons- Amar’e played pretty well post all-star break and Melo played great during the stretch without both Lin Amar’e but neither one was worth max money. Amar’e had his role reduced for the entire season- not just after Linsanity like Melo- but he didn’t resort to busting plays. Remember this: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/sports/basketball/anthonys-return-has-hurt-the-knicks.html
    Amar’e might have dogged it on defense but he’s bad enough that you can’t really tell. I am pulling for Melo but he’s had one shitty game and one very mediocre one in the playoffs thus far- time to put up or shut up.

  71. 2FOR18

    Spree8nyk8: He’s talking about real max guys….

    That makes it even worse. Heck, the Knicks alone have 3 guys who can put up melo type numbers if given free reign (Mare, JR and Lin)

  72. jon abbey

    nicos: They both had crappy seasons- Amar’e played pretty well post all-star break and Melo played great during the stretch without both Lin Amar’e but neither one was worth max money.Amar’e had his role reduced for the entire season- not just after Linsanity like Melo- but he didn’t resort to busting plays.Remember this: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/sports/basketball/anthonys-return-has-hurt-the-knicks.html
    Amar’e might have dogged it on defense but he’s bad enough that you can’t really tell.I am pulling for Melo but he’s had one shitty game and one very mediocre one in the playoffs thus far- time to put up or shut up.

    he had his “role reduced” because he was awful, not just on D and rebounding as he has been throughout his whole career, but on offense too. that wasn’t entirely his fault because of our putrid PG situation, but he’s a huge part of the problem, much more than Anthony.

    the bottom line is that the Melo/Chandler/no Amare/no Lin/Woodson version of the Knicks was the best version we saw all year, much better than ‘Linsanity’ or any other version. if you replace Melo with Amare there, there is no way that team is anywhere near as good.

  73. ruruland

    2FOR18: I think there are are at least 50 players in the league that can score 30 pts on 26 shots and play OK defense.

    this is troll bait.

  74. Brian Cronin

    the bottom line is that the Melo/Chandler/no Amare/no Lin/Woodson version of the Knicks was the best version we saw all year, much better than ‘Linsanity’ or any other version.

    The version with Amar’e and Lin right after Woodson took over was the best version of the Knicks team.

  75. ruruland

    2FOR18: That makes it even worse.Heck, the Knicks alone have 3 guys who can put up melo type numbers if given free reign (Mare, JR and Lin)

    This would be like saying there are 30 other NFL quarterbacks that can throw for 500 yards if they have 60 attempts in the game, even if they are playing the best secondary/pass rush in the NFL.

    First, ask yourself why they’re taking so many shots errr…. droping back to pass so often against a great pass defense. Second, ask yourself if there’s a difference between completing a pass against a defense expecting a pass — squezzing the ball into tight coverage while being hit, compared to completing a wide-open playaction pass after 6 straight succesfull runs.

    Third, ask yourself if there are circumstances — like a deficit and an inability to run the ball — that demand that the quarterback throw the ball a lot — because that’s the best chance of moving the ball that they have….. They can’t afford to keep running it to set up more efficient passing opportunites — they have to get the ball down the field now.

  76. jon abbey

    2FOR18: That makes it even worse.Heck, the Knicks alone have 3 guys who can put up melo type numbers if given free reign (Mare, JR and Lin)

    in a playoff series against Miami where the primary defenders are LeBron and Battier and there are few other actual offensive options? if there are ten other guys in the league who can do that, I’d be surprised.

  77. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: The version with Amar’e and Lin right after Woodson took over was the best version of the Knicks team.

    yeah, I guess that’s true, too bad it only lasted a couple of weeks.

  78. jon abbey

    ruru, it’s the same mindset that can compare a tertiary option like Harden to a primary option like Melo. it only makes sense statistically, not in the real world.

  79. Brian Cronin

    yeah, I guess that’s true, too bad it only lasted a couple of weeks.

    Yep. It would have been sweet to see how they would have done if the injury bug had not hit.

  80. ruruland

    Brian Cronin: (

    No doubt. The best version of the Knicks was one where Melo was struggling offensively, but playing elite defensively, Amar’e was playhing great offensively and Lin was average.

    We saw Melo in a ridiculous funk, but more telling, a time when he got most of his baskets off movement or spotting up– many of his baskets assisted from Lin.

    Let’s note too that Amar’e, at that time, was scoring in isolated and had an assisted basket rate around 40 percent, with Lin’s assist rate dropping below 30.

    There was balance to the offense, even if middling efficiency-wise, that allowed the offensive players to play at a high level defensively — even Amar’e….

    We talk about the need for a point guard to tie the Melo/Amar’e marriage together— that would be the stretch Knicks fans cna look at for hope if Amar’e is back next year. I’m back and forth with this.

  81. ruruland

    jon abbey:
    ruru, it’s the same mindset that can compare a tertiary option like Harden to a primary option like Melo. it only makes sense statistically, not in the real world.

    Exactly.

  82. 2FOR18

    ruruland: This would be like saying there are 30 other NFL quarterbacks that can throw for 500 yards if they have 60 attempts in the game, even if they are playing the best secondary/pass rush in the NFL.

    First, ask yourself why they’re taking so many shots errr…. droping back to pass so often against a great pass defense. Second, ask yourself if there’s a difference between completing a pass against a defense expecting a pass — squezzing the ball into tight coverage while being hit, compared to completing a wide-open playaction pass after 6 straight succesfull runs.

    Third, ask yourself if there are circumstances — like a deficit and an inability to run the ball — that demand that the quarterback throw the ball a lot — because that’s the best chance of moving the ball that they have….. They can’t afford to keep running it to set up more efficient passing opportunites — they have to get the ball down the field now.

    That’s a poor analogy. Football is dependent on 11 guys doing their jobs. You’re telling me that if you handed the ball to JR 20 feet from the basket in the last Heat game that he’s not capable of taking 26 shots and producing what melo produced?.

  83. ruruland

    Brian Cronin: Yep. It would have been sweet to see how they would have done if the injury bug had not hit.

    Envision a scenario where Melo gets his touches in the post and isolation, Lin and Amar’e run effective pnr –allowing each of these guys to play off each other.

    Imagine an offense where you have Melo, Amar’e and Lin all going at the same time — we’ve seen glimpses of it– the first half against the Bucks with MDA….

    There’s reason to believe that it’s possible. It would be ridiculously efficient and should allow for gus to exert defensively.

  84. jon abbey

    2FOR18: That’s a poor analogy.Football is dependent on 11 guys doing their jobs. You’re telling me that if you handed the ball to JR 20 feet from the basket in the last Heat game that he’s not capable of taking 26 shots and producing what melo produced?.

    with LeBron and Battier guarding him as the primary option on the team? very doubtful.

  85. ruruland

    2FOR18: That’s a poor analogy.Football is dependent on 11 guys doing their jobs. You’re telling me that if you handed the ball to JR 20 feet from the basket in the last Heat game that he’s not capable of taking 26 shots and producing what melo produced?.

    Jr shoots a lower percentage historically when guarded by the league average bench defender. If you think JR makes 12 of 26 shots agaisnt the league’s best defense out to stop him — with arguably the league’s best man defender harrassing him, you’re out of your mind.

    If you say JR is anywhere near as multiple in the ways he can attack defenders I know you’re trolling hard right now.

    When is the last time you saw JR create more than one layup for himself in a game in the half-court?

  86. 2FOR18

    jon abbey: in a playoff series against Miami where the primary defenders are LeBron and Battier and there are few other actual offensive options? if there are ten other guys in the league who can do that, I’d be surprised.

    There are plenty – Melo was single teamed the whole 2nd game and given the ball 20 feet from the basket to operate one on one and chuck up long 2′s. In game 1 when he was fronted by Lebron he couldn’t do anything – that was an example of where it would have taken a special player to thrive, and he’s not that player.

  87. nicos

    jon abbey: he had his “role reduced” because he was awful, not just on D and rebounding as he has been throughout his whole career, but on offense too. that wasn’t entirely his fault because of our putrid PG situation, but he’s a huge part of the problem, much more than Anthony.

    the bottom line is that the Melo/Chandler/no Amare/no Lin/Woodson version of the Knicks was the best version we saw all year, much better than ‘Linsanity’ or any other version. if you replace Melo with Amare there, there is no way that team is anywhere near as good.

    He did suck but he didn’t start getting touches in the pnr until after the all-star break- after the all-star break his offensive numbers- .597 TS% and even his rebound rate, 14.2, were pretty good. Was he terrible on defense outside of those first few games under Woodson- absolutely. Did Melo do enough during that 18 game run without Lin and Amar’e to say he had a better year? Yup, considering how awful Amar’e was in the first half. But if you’re going to run him out of town for sucking most of the season, being overpaid, and sticking his hand through a glass case, you should be running Melo out for sucking most of the season, being overpaid and actively undermining the team on the court when he came back post-Linsanity as well.

    And I’d agree with Brian that the first stretch under Woodson when Melo was still struggling offensively but really working on defense (and Amar’e playing at least decent defense as well) was the best basketball the Knicks played this season.

  88. ruruland

    And Jr shoots a lower percentage despite a mugh higher percentage of his baskets being assisted. His field goal percentage goes way down when creating — it’s been low the last few years because he’s been asked to do it so much. His 590+ TS days came when he was a spot-up guy.

  89. 2FOR18

    ruruland: Jr shoots a lower percentage historically when guarded by the league average bench defender. If you think JR makes 12 of 26 shots agaisnt the league’s best defense out to stop him — with arguably the league’s best man defender harrassing him, you’re out of your mind.

    If you say JR is anywhere near as multiple in the ways he can attack defenders I know you’re trolling hard right now.

    When is the last time you saw JR create more than one layup for himself in a game in the half-court?

    You’re moving the goalposts like you always do. Melo spent the whole game 2 in single coverage. Miami let him get his shots from outside where he’s a dime a dozen player. When he’s single covered he dribbles a couple of times and shoots a long 2; he rarely looks to move the ball in those situations. He played right into their hands. You don’t see that?

  90. ruruland

    2FOR18: You’re moving the goalposts like you always do.Melo spent the whole game 2 in single coverage.Miami let him get his shots from outside where he’s a dime a dozen player. When he’s single covered he dribbles a couple of times and shoots a long 2; he rarely looks to move the ball in those situations.He played right into their hands.You don’t see that?

    In what way have I changed the argument? All of the above is true.

    12 of Melo’s shots came with 7 seconds or less in the shot-clock. That’s a lot. You’re not going to get great shots in thos situations. Melo shot 9 free throws and had plenty of drives to the rim that resulted in misses, should-have-been fouls, or makes.

    Melo moved th ball plenty of times…. plenty of times it came back to him later in the clock.
    If he’s in single coverage he should try to score. It just so-happens he’s playing great defense.

    Many great/efficient offensive players combine their own-shot making with easier looks created from penetration by others.. melo is not affforded those right now.

  91. jon abbey

    nicos: He did suck but he didn’t start getting touches in the pnr until after the all-star break- after the all-star break his offensive numbers- .597 TS% and even his rebound rate, 14.2, were pretty good.Was he terrible on defense outside of those first few games under Woodson- absolutely.Did Melo do enough during that 18 game run without Lin and Amar’e to say he had a better year?Yup, considering how awful Amar’e was in the first half.But if you’re going to run him out of town for sucking most of the season, being overpaid, and sticking his hand through a glass case, you should be running Melo out for sucking most of the season, being overpaid and actively undermining the team on the court when he came back post-Linsanity as well.

    I can see a team built around Chandler, Melo and a league average starting PG being dangerous in the playoffs, depending somewhat on the role players. I don’t see how Amare fits into that as anything more than a complementary piece, and I don’t think a team built around Chandler/Amare/a league average starting PG would be anywhere near as good or dangerous.

  92. ruruland

    2FOR18: You’re moving the goalposts like you always do.Melo spent the whole game 2 in single coverage.Miami let him get his shots from outside where he’s a dime a dozen player. When he’s single covered he dribbles a couple of times and shoots a long 2; he rarely looks to move the ball in those situations.He played right into their hands.You don’t see that?

    Look, I get it, anyone could make 46 percent of their shots and shoot nine free throws against this lebron and battier guy….

    See ya next time hoser

  93. Brian Cronin

    I can see a team built around Chandler, Melo and a league average starting PG being dangerous in the playoffs, depending somewhat on the role players. I don’t see how Amare fits into that as anything more than a complementary piece, and I don’t think a team built around Chandler/Amare/a league average starting PG would be anywhere near as good or dangerous.

    Would the league average starting PG be able to run the P’n'R?

  94. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: Would the league average starting PG be able to run the P’n’R?

    sure, I don’t believe that Amare is the same guy we saw in Phoenix and for most of a season in NY anymore, although I would like to be wrong about that.

  95. jon abbey

    but more importantly, Chandler gets in Amare’s way on offense, and Amare is useless/horrible on D and the boards, so it’s kind of impossible to play them both and maximize their potential.

  96. 2FOR18

    ruruland: In what way have I changed the argument? All of the above is true.

    12 of Melo’s shots came with 7 seconds or less in the shot-clock. That’s a lot. You’re not going to get great shots in thos situations. Melo shot 9 free throws and had plenty of drives to the rim that resulted in misses, should-have-been fouls, or makes.

    Melo moved th ball plenty of times…. plenty of times it came back to him later in the clock.
    If he’s in single coverage he should try to score. It just so-happens he’s playing great defense.

    Many great/efficient offensive players combine their own-shot making with easier looks created from penetration by others.. melo is not affforded those right now.

    The 7 second thing is an arbitrary figure that fits your narrative. 7 seconds is plenty of time to do something other than shoot a long 2.

    My premise is just that there are plenty of players who can shoot 12-26 against single coverage. Abbey brought up Harden as an example of someone who couldn’t as a primary option and you agreed, and I disagree. In fact, Harden would be smart enough to step back and shoot a few 3′s and also drive more often, instead of a chucking up a bunch of 18-20 footers. I wish there were some way to simulate an alternate universe and put Harden in melo’s place in the last game. I’m convinced that Harden would produce more points per possession.

  97. Brian Cronin

    but more importantly, Chandler gets in Amare’s way on offense, and Amare is useless/horrible on D and the boards, so it’s kind of impossible to play them both and maximize their potential.

    They seemed to do well in the beginning of the Woodson era. They just replaced Chandler with Amar’e as the primary receiver on the PNR and it worked well. Amar’e looked like the Amar’e of last year in the stretch after Woodson took over (that he seemed to finally be in playing shape certainly seemed to help). The problem is, of course, that the sample size was so small. I can’t tell you that Amar’e would keep it up. And when he returned, it was to a team where they don’t have anyone capable and/or willing to do the PNR with him.

    I certainly am not saying that Amar’e would go right back to the way he played when Woodson took over, but I also don’t think there’s anything to show that he definitely wouldn’t. And that Amar’e (the one from the beginning of Woodson’s tenure) could be the lead scorer on a very good team.

  98. nicos

    ruruland: In what way have I changed the argument? All of the above is true.

    12 of Melo’s shots came with 7 seconds or less in the shot-clock. That’s a lot. You’re not going to get great shots in thos situations. Melo shot 9 free throws and had plenty of drives to the rim that resulted in misses, should-have-been fouls, or makes.

    Melo moved th ball plenty of times…. plenty of times it came back to him later in the clock.
    If he’s in single coverage he should try to score. It just so-happens he’s playing great defense.

    Many great/efficient offensive players combine their own-shot making with easier looks created from penetration by others.. melo is not affforded those right now.

    As I said in the last post I’d like to see the Knicks get into their sets faster and I do think Melo needs to pass a little more off of the dribble- once he puts it on the floor usually a shot is going up which isn’t always the best thing when you’re being guarded by a top-notch defender like LBJ. If he would dish the ball off of the dribble a little more, not only would he create good shots for others but he’d make the opposing bigs a step later getting into lane when he does drive the ball. He’s terrific at facing the double team and hitting the open man and while I don’t think he’ll ever be LBJ off of the dribble I do think he can improve in that area.

  99. nicos

    jon abbey: I can see a team built around Chandler, Melo and a league average starting PG being dangerous in the playoffs, depending somewhat on the role players. I don’t see how Amare fits into that as anything more than a complementary piece, and I don’t think a team built around Chandler/Amare/a league average starting PG would be anywhere near as good or dangerous.

    The Knicks were two games over .500 last year with Mosgov and Turiaf playing plenty of minutes at the 5. Replace them with Chandler and the Knicks probably would be playing Indiana if not Atlanta right now. They’d probably be playing Indiana or Atlanta if both Melo and Amar’e had been healthy this year too so take that for what it’s worth. As I said Amar’e's offensive numbers were pretty good in second half of the year despite playing with Chandler and the Knicks were still a top ten defense with Amar’e playing a lot of minutes- They actually jumped from 10 to 7 in that first stretch with Woodson (I think) so the idea that Amar’e dooms them to an awful defense isn’t exactly true. They were better defensively without him but they were pretty good with him too. If you have a good point guard and if he’s healthy he’s still as good a scoring big man as there is in the game. He’s a better rebounder than Melo if you’re counting them both as fours. He’s not worth his salary and his health is a question mark but he’s not useless and is certainly worth more than his trade value is at the moment.

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