Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, August 1, 2014

Trade Deadline Open Thread

UPDATE: Thu 1:52pm EST

ESPN is now reporting that the Knicks have acquired Tracy McGrady and Sergio Rodriguez in a three-way deal with Houston and Sacramento.

UPDATE: Thu 8:47am EST

ESPN reporting that the Kings and Houston Rockets have a deal to send McGrady for Kevin Martin.

The deal hammered out Wednesday night would send Martin, Kenny Thomas, Hilton Armstrong and Sergio Rodriguez to the Rockets for McGrady, Sixth Man Award contender Carl Landry, Joey Dorsey and an undisclosed amount of cash.

However the Knicks aren’t out of the loop just yet…

Multiple sources told ESPN.com that the Rockets and Kings will spend Thursday trying to make this a three-way deal that lands McGrady with the New York Knicks, who have been McGrady’s preferred destination ever since he and the Rockets mutually agreed in late December to find the 30-year-old a new team via trade.

During the Knicks game tonight, they’re reporting that Nate has been traded to Boston for Eddie House and J.R. Giddens (NBDL stats). Of course they repeated numerous times that the deal is not official yet, but this is the second straight night that Nate hasn’t been with the team.

ESPN has announced New York has shipped Darko Milcic to Minnesota for Brian Cardinal.

The trade will save the Knicks $1.8 million and give the Wolves a center to audition for the rest of the season. Milicic has been mired at the end of Mike D’Antoni’s bench for months and has publicly said he’s likely to return to Europe to play basketball when his contract expires this summer.

260 comments on “Trade Deadline Open Thread

  1. Jafa

    Marc Stien of ESPN reporting that “The Chicago Bulls are holding guard John Salmons out of Wednesday’s game at New York in anticipation of a trade.”

    Could this be bad news for us regarding TMac?

  2. BigBlueAL

    Apparently Cardinal will immediately get released to open up a roster spot for the other impending trades. Damn, I really thought Cardinal couldve carried this team to the playoffs.

  3. Jafa

    Now Chris Bussard of ESPN reporting that “The Knicks and Rockets are still haggling over draft picks in their talks regarding Tracy McGrady. The Knicks have not yet agreed to give Houston two first-round picks (2011, 2012). Houston not only wants the two picks, but they want one of the picks to be unprotected (with the other pick, the Rockets would have the right to swap). If the Knicks agree to give both picks, the level of protection will still be an issue. Sources say the Bulls’ chances of getting McGrady are slim, but not yet completely dead. Houston is trying to charge the Knicks a steep price for taking on Jared Jeffries.”

    My head is spinning. At least the Bulls seem to be out, so good thing we are not bidding against ourselves. Give em only one pick Donnie, or two with protection.

  4. J Weezy

    if im donnie i make the trade so that the 2011 picks are swapped no matter what and the 2012 pick is top 5 protected..just in case for some odd reason the Knicks whiff on all the free agents this summer

  5. Brian Cronin

    My guess is that Salmons is sitting because of a separate deal, which is why the rumor was that the Bulls might be out of it (which is also why the Rockets are now using “maybe we just won’t trade T-Mac rather than give you protection on the draft picks” as their threat instead of “we’ll just deal with Chicago.”

  6. BigBlueAL

    Trade apparently official: Cavs get Jamison and Telfair, Clippers get Drew Gooden and Wash gets Illgauskas, Al Thornton and Brian Skinner and Cavs 1st round pick.

    Also David Aldridge says Salmons aint being traded to a “Texas” team so no Bulls-Rockets trade happening soon if at all.

  7. Z

    Do the Clippers really think they are players for LeBron? I mean it’s a long shot enough that the Knicks think they can seduce him into leaving Ohio. But at least they are the Knicks.

  8. Loathing

    Ok, the way I get this Nate trade working is like this:

    Knicks get House, Shelden Williams and Bill Walker

    Celtics get Nate and Landry.

    Knicks use Roberson’s trade exemption to make the money work.

  9. Robert Silverman

    I for one, will miss Nate, warts and all. Good luck w/Boston (I just threw up in my mouth a little).

  10. TDM

    Regarding Darko trade, anyone think Kahn did Donnie a small favor by trading DNPCDs to help clear extra space?

    Regarding the Clips trying to grab LBJ, the Clips have the pieces in place to make them an instant contender. Baron, Gordon, Kaman and LBJ is a solid core. Not to mention, the Clips with LeBron and the Lakers with Kobe all playing under the same roof. The rivalry would be insane.

  11. TDM

    “Am I the only one having a tough time pulling this site up? (And in the moments I need it most!)”

    I’ve been having problems all day. I called IT twice already. Ha.

  12. Thomas B.

    How long before the Boston fans get sick of Nate’s self promotion? But if anybody can cure him of that its Garnet.

    Too bad the Celts could not include a 2010 first rounder. They cant trade it since they did not make a 2009 pick.

    Who is Brian Cardinal?

  13. TDM

    Since I know little to nothing about JR Giddens, I thought I’d check out his draft profile. His list of weaknesses caught my attention:

    “Weaknesses: Age – is already 23-years-old. Horrible free throw shooter. Had off-court issues in college. Had attitude issues in the past. Needs to improve on his ball-handling for the NBA. Still inconsistent. Defense still needs improvement. Needs to become a more consistent three-point shooter for the NBA.”

    Sounds like a perfect replacement for Duhon. Well done, Donnie.

  14. daaarn

    Geez, how many times is Gooden going to get traded in his career? I’m expecting him to end up in a Knicks jersey sometime around 2014. And good to see the site back up finally.

  15. BigBlueAL

    I miss the Gallo who could shoot. Also if Hill is gone his lasting impression is that he is absolutely terrible.

    I am really beginning to think the Nets will win more games the rest of the season than the Knicks.

  16. Spree8nyk8

    I hate this team for making me think they were going to play their hearts out and do something this season. I don’t mind if they lose games if they play their hearts out. But this I can’t stand.

  17. nicos

    I’m in Chicago and had to watch the Bulls telecast– any news on MSG as to why Jeffries disappeared from the game after the first quarter? Please tell me Donnie found someone willing to take him off of our hand without giving up Hill and multiple picks- I’m really hoping Hill’s putrid play the last two nights is due to the trade rumors.

  18. SeeWhyDee77

    Here lately, I’ve been sayin that if Cleveland lands Amare that Walsh shouldn’t make the trade with Houston as currently constituted. But with the possibility of Walsh squeezin a pick outta the C’s in a Nate deal (I sure am gonna miss Nate but Walsh has to do what he gotta) and Cleveland landing Jamison-I say make the trade now. It’s clear that Cleveland isn’t too worried about the future, or why else would they give Lebron an aging (gracefully I might add) sidekick? To me, it’s clear that they are goin all in to win the chip this year. Jamison is the perfect piece to add to that team, but only for this season as he is 33. So now I believe, championship or not, there is now a greater chance that LBJ leaves Cleveland. I think he will look at the roster and see an aging second option, a buncha guys who pretty much just stand and witness leaving LBJ to do EVERYTHING, and a boring yet good coach. Now if Walsh makes the trade for TMac, LBJ will see in NY a team with 2 emerging youngins, cap room to go after whoever he suggests or keep Lee (a very worthy and underrated all star), and a Coach he allegedly loves who has a very entertaining brand of ball to play in the leagues biggest stage. I think our offseason looks 10 times more promising than it did when Amare was rumored to be Cleveland bound..an thas it I ain’t changin my mind no mo! LOL

  19. DS

    That’s it! I’m rooting for Boston in the playoffs!! It will be fun to see Nate there even in green!! And if they can knock out the Cavs LeBron might be inclined to Cleveland!

  20. tastycakes

    So if Boston is really out of the running for T-Mac, then the Knicks aren’t really bidding against anybody, which gives them some leverage, no? I’d love to see this deal go down a little more favorably than proposed .. say, without the 2012 pick. Let’s face it, other than taking on Jeffries, what’s the downside for Houston? They’re getting young talent and picks. The proposed Chicago trade always sounded like a load of crap. Seems like this is gonna go down to the wire, and I’m hoping the terms are a bit more favorable.

    Nate’s gone, huh? Can’t say I’m sad, but I liked watching him play.

    Gonna be a weird team the rest of the year.

  21. Mulligan

    UGH. K-Mart to Rockets. Looks like Walsh called Morey’s bluff and Morey made a move. Still a chance that T-Mac winds up in NY for the same package though… Wonder if that means Walsh will stop haggling or if he’ll stand pack. Dude seriously has nerves of steel.

  22. Z-man

    Ugh! T-mac goes to Sacramento for Kevin Martin. Rodriguez and Carl Landry are involved in the deal as well. Weird. I guess Martin and Landry are better than anything we offered, so can’t blame Morey.

    Reports say there is still a chance T-Mac winds up with the Knicks, Kings looking at same package we offered Rockets. Hard to get hopes up at this point after the roller-coaster ride of the last few days.

  23. DS

    “Reports say there is still a chance T-Mac winds up with the Knicks, Kings looking at same package we offered Rockets.”

    Well, we’re also supposed to get Sergio Rodriguez (who is not exactly Pau Gasol).

    BUT if the Knicks get Rodriguez in addition to unloading Jeffries’s contract and getting a mid to late first rounder in a Nate deal, maybe Walsh (and all of us) can feel at peace giving away an unprotected pick or two.

    IMHO, I say pull the trigger.

    I think if worst-case-scenario we’re dealing with a core of Sergio, Danilo, Wilson (in a contract year), possibly Ty Thomas, plus a player or two for some or all of the $30 million in cap room, (even if they’re not spectacular players) the risk of surrendering a top 5 pick to Sacramento/Houston are fairly low, barring injuries.

  24. Frank

    Seems like a good trade for Houston if Martin can stay healthy — they’re not winning anything this year anyway, and with Yao back next year, they can trot out Yao, maybe Scola, Battier, Martin, and Brooks still with Chuck Hayes and Ariza coming off the bench. That’s an advanced stats guy’s dream team.

    I feel hopeful/confident that TMac is coming to NY today — not sure what Sac-town would do with him. They’ve already decided with this trade that Tyreke is going to be the alpha there — they definitely do not need McGrady to get into a pissing contest with their golden child. They could buy him out but why not get some combination of Jordan Hill, a #1, and expirings for him? Not sure how that would affect their cap situation, but getting Landry on a cheap contract (RFA after this year), 2009 #8 pick in Jordan, expiring contracts, and a #1 pick is a very good haul for Martin, a guy who was clashing with Evans and is hurt all the time.

    For Houston – I still feel like they could use Jefferies — now that they have Martin, I think it’s unlikely they will have much cap space for a while — to be able to trot our perimeter defenders like Battier, Ariza, and Jefferies would give them TONS of flexibility to have two plus defenders capable of guarding 2-3 positions at all times.

    That being said — even though we would be giving up a king’s ransom for the T-Mac thing, it would really feel like a huge letdown if it doesn’t happen. I have a feeling Morey leaked all kinds of rumors in order to leverage Walsh, but in so doing, pushed all us NYK fans into a frenzy of 2 max FA dreams.

  25. ess-dog

    I’m trying to fight it, but I’m feeling pessimistic today. So many teams are clearing cap space (The Clips now?) and honestly if I had to bet real money today, I’d say that Lebron stays, and Bosh goes down to Miami with Wade. I mean, there’s always a shot, but odds are we end up with Joe Johnson and David “green light to the basket” Lee. Chandler, Gallo, Johnson, Lee and filler might not even be an 8 seed depending on what happens in the east.
    I’m ok with losing Hill and a 2012 pick, but we have to keep our 2011 in any TMac deal. It’s not that I think that Walsh isn’t doing his best, but I just don’t know if “the plan” has any chance of panning out. We’ll know more at 3 pm today.

  26. ess-dog

    Oh but the fact that the Bulls settled on Warrick in their deal with the Bucks makes me think that TT will be a Knick soon.

    Any new details on the Nate trade? Couldn’t we have gotten Bill Walker? He’s a better prospect than Giddens.

  27. jaddddd1

    If Donnie doesn’t complete this T-Mac deal, gotta think about pulling the plug on this whole operation he’s got going on here. He had about a hundred chances to get us the cap room for 2 max guys this summer and passed on them because he won’t give up JORDAN HILL. If this guy isn’t a perennial All-Star now, we should all quit the Knicks.

  28. Frank

    jad – it’s not Jordan Hill he doesn’t want to give up — it’s Jordan Hill + potentially 2 unprotected picks, so potentially 3 lottery picks for the small chance at 2 deserving max FAs — not sure if he’s right to refuse that, but part of me is glad that he is not willing to throw unprotected picks into trades willy nilly a la Isiah.

  29. Brian Cronin

    I find it hard to believe that this deal won’t go down – the Kings would be passing up just too much good stuff if it doesn’t work.

    Carl Landry and cap room for Kevin Martin is not bad, but Carl Landry, Jordan Hill and either of the two draft picks (while having to pay Jeffries for a year) is a windfall for Sacramento.

  30. Loathing

    Some interesting points here.

    First, as is, just between the two, here’s how the trade looks:

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yka7shz

    Now, with that in mind, if the Knicks decide to go the “Highway Robbery” method of trading for T-Mac, here’s how THAT would go (Keep in mind, players have been juxtaposed for roster size purposes):

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ykn6yms

    Keep in mind the current makeup of the Kings’ roster has most of their contracts expiring in 2011 anyway.

    But here’s what the deal would look like if the KINGS got the Knicks package:

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjlc5ay

    My point in all this is: If we do the package meant for Houston, do we really need to send THEM picks?!

  31. Frank O.

    Wow. Was blocked out of the system all night. I tried to remember if I had done anything that was worthy of Mike K. having me blocked…:)

    I was feeling a bit this morning like the Knicks – and their fans – were snakebit after losing the rockets deal. But I agree with the other Frank that I’m kind of pleased that DW isn’t willing to mortgage the franchise’s future. It sends the message that the Knicks won’t be made suckers…

    I have this feeling the Rockets outsmarted themselves with this one. Martin is a nice player, but he’s managed to miss a quarter or so of each of the last three seasons on average. And I think Landry is a beast. You love having a guy like that. So they got more scoring, offset by likely injuries, and gave up a horse who is very tough, but not a scorer…
    Oh, and they gave up cap space…

    Right now, I agree with jon that the Knicks so far have shuffled the deck chairs on the Titannic. I’m glad to see nate go. It was time.

    By the way, no one seems to have noted that the Wizards have now created $33 million in cap space for 2010…DC is a great basketball area, is one of the top rated areas to live in the US and has a relatively new arena right downtown. Don’t be surprised if the Wiz suddenly becomes big players in the FA battle.

    Meanwhile, the Knicks are now seeming desperate to move Jeffries. The Knicks allegedly contacted the Bucks about Ridnour, but the moment DW mentioned Jeffries, the phone went dead…
    It’s amazing to realize how toxic some of the Knicks’ assets are…

    I’m now even skeptical that the Knicks can land Tyrus.

    *sigh*

    I keep saying this, but the Knicks are not dealing from a strong hand and everyone in the NBA knows it. It feel almost as if the Knicks need to be patient, let these contracts sunset, make a play for one FA, and then look to 2011.

    But if Donnie has some magic, I would be thrilled, because his team has quit.

  32. Frank O.

    Did anyone notice that the Knicks got relief on Mobley, $9.5 million on the luxury tax…so cablevision gets a boost. Those fu–ers are happy…

  33. Caleb

    I’m a little surprised at Morey – Sacramento looks like the clear winner. The only way I’d trade for Kevin Martin is if I thought I was the one missing piece from winning a title. Can’t say Houston is that close, especially without Landry.

    I am kind of a Sergio Rodriguez fan, and I think D’Antoni would be a fantastic coach for him.

    Sacramento has a good deal of cap space right now – probably @$8-10 million – which must give them pause about taking Jeffries. On the other hand, I don’t see them having any chance to snag a big FA anyway. Absorbing Jeffries + cash for a draft pick, might do it. They might try to pawn off Francisco Garcia for Jeffries, which give the Knicks a little more than $1 million extra this summer, but whose contract runs an extra 3 years…

    Knicks Plan B, if we DON’T unload Jeffries, btw — we have $29.7 million committed for 2010-2011. If cap comes in on the low end, $51 million, max for LeBron is $15.3 million, and Lee can only get a $6 million starting salary — or $45 million for 6 years.

    If cap hits $53 million, max offer is $15.9 million and $7.4 million is left for Lee. Sounds low, but that can also be 6 years for $55 million. That might be enough. Might.

    If cap gets to $55 million, max offer is $16.5 million and Lee could start at $8.8 million and get to $65 million over 6 years.

    In all these scenarios, we have a huge hole in the backcourt — guys playing for the minimum. But a terrific frontcourt with Lee, LeBron & Gallo. Come 2011, we get another $11-14 million free when Curry’s deal expires…

    On the other hand, in that scenario there needs to be a serious Plan C — building up with non-max FAs. Doable.

  34. Loathing

    OK, so assuming that, do we just throw offers at both LeBron and Wade and then sign Lee the minute one of them commits?

  35. Brian Cronin

    Sacramento has a good deal of cap space right now – probably @$8-10 million – which must give them pause about taking Jeffries. On the other hand, I don’t see them having any chance to snag a big FA anyway.

    Exactly.

    Deferring their cap room for one year by taking on Jeffries is well worth picking up Hill and draft picks because, as you note, they’re likely not a top free agent destination anyways. I think the three-way deal gets done.

  36. Caleb

    “Deferring their cap room for one year by taking on Jeffries is well worth picking up Hill and draft picks”

    No doubt, but I would aim to give them less…

    If we pay the max $3 million cash, they’re basically losing $3.8 million on the deal — probably enough that they’ll demand 2 of 3. Otherwise, they could just buy a pick this summer.

  37. Brian Cronin

    No doubt, but I would aim to give them less…

    Who are “you” in this scenario? The Kings or the Knicks?

  38. Caleb

    I have civic pride, the last week notwithstanding! “I” am the Knicks. I think we could get away with less than the rumors suggested about the Houston offer. Say, Hill + a protected 2012 pick.

  39. Brian Cronin

    I have civic pride, the last week notwithstanding! “I” am the Knicks. I think we could get away with less than the rumors suggested about the Houston offer. Say, Hill + a protected 2012 pick.

    Gotcha.

    I would agree that them getting Landry should make them a lot more willing to not push the issue (this is a case where having the Boy Genius involved in the deal on your side helps).

  40. Caleb

    “If we don’t trade Jeffries today, don’t we have one last chance at the draft?”

    Yes – can even even move him during the free-agency period. If we need a spare million we could always trade him for Francisco Garcia!

    Not that it’s a good idea.

  41. Frank O.

    Curry and Jeffries expire at same time for 2011 season, sweeping $18 million from the Knicks’ ledger.

    One max FA in 2010 and another max FA in 2011.

    If the Knicks can turn some of these expirings this year into some draft picks this year and next year…well, greener pastures, man.

    How bad would it be to follow that course, and use some of these expiring folks to stockpile draft picks?

    How outrageous would it be to use Lee as bait to get a some premium draft picks…?
    What kind of picks might Harrington get from a playoff team that needs some offense?

    I think that is plan C.
    If you can’t dump salary, stockpile picks.
    Plan on getting one max FA in 2010, with the understanding the Knicks would again be major players in 2011, and would have several good picks in their pockets…

    That would be one killer plan…except we’d suck for the rest of this year, but we would be respectable next year having landed at least one max FA…theoretically.
    See, problem fixed.:)

  42. jaddddd1

    Frank,

    I was more lamenting the fact that Donnie has had 1 plan for 2 years and not that he had the chance to make it come to fruition, he hesitated because of a guy like Hill. If he really is planning to put all his eggs in the 2010 basket, as he has said, the only reason to not give up what Houston was asking is if you think Hill is going to be a star. You shouldn’t be assuming we’re going to have to give up top 5-10 picks to Houston in the trade, so the protection shouldn’t matter. It’s basically admitting he has no confidence in himself to be able to lure anyone this summer. And if that’s the case, we should just try to trade for guys who expire in 10-11 like Jeffries and Curry, and roll all our money over. But that would probably make Mike D quit and make all of us riot, so Donnie should’ve just made the TMAC deal when he had the chance.

  43. TDM

    Well, if the Knicks don’t pull off a trade with Sacto for TMac, the one saving grace is that they won’t have to clear a roster spot and Brian Cardinal becomes our big trade line acquisition. Amen to that!

  44. Caleb

    Curry and Jeffries expire at same time for 2011 season, sweeping $18 million from the Knicks’ ledger.”

    you’re right, of course, my Plan B scenario had JJ on the roster next year!!

    nothing wrong with the long-term plan, although I wouldn’t rule out making good-value free-agent signings (like, Tyrus Thomas for $4 million, something like that).

    I’d listen to offers for anyone. I mean, we suck. But I wouldn’t be in a hurry to trade Lee – unless the pick is top 3 or 4, it’s not likely they’ll turn out any better. You have to look at Lee as a steppingstone, no point in going back to square one i.e. 15-20 wins.

  45. DS

    “Deferring their cap room for one year by taking on Jeffries is well worth picking up Hill and draft picks because, as you note, they’re likely not a top free agent destination anyways.”

    I don’t know if that’s fair… the Kings are not the Montreal Expos. They would be wise to keep $7 million in cap room just like the big markets. And if they need to kick in an extra million or two to attract a FA to a smaller market, that’s all the more reason not to waste it on JJ.

    Caleb – Glad to hear your feedback on S. Rodriguez. I think he could be a nice prospect for us.

  46. Frank O.

    Caleb:
    I agree that they should deal if there is a common sense move to make. I agree Tyrus would be an interesting move, although I fear that that guys is what he is, and no more.
    Not to be snarky or anything, but I’m not seeing a lot more wins for the Knicks this year. This is a team on prozac…

  47. KnickfaninNJ

    Is anyone besides me wondering what the Knicks get out of trading Nate for two players one of whom we’ve never hear and the other is House?? I can’t imagine they are going to be able to have a bigger impact off the bench than Nate does and it doesn’t help our cap situation?

    It just seems to me that D’Antoni doesn’t like Nate. Although of course I knew that already. You could tell when Mike only gave Nate two games in the starting line up and the deciding factor seems to have been a seven point loss to Cleveland in Cleveland. We’ve lost by a lot more to a lot worse opponents at home without having someone yanked from the rotation.

  48. ess-dog

    OK yes, there are options once the summer hits. IF we get a max free agent (Lebron), we could also be in a position to force a Bosh trade (say for Lee and Chandler, maybe we get Jack too) even without moving Jeffries. The possibilities are definitely there.
    Not to be a Negative Nancy, but don’t you feel hamstrung by Walsh’s draft picks? Is there anyone picked in the top 20 with LESS value than Hill right now? Imagine if we had Lawson, Jennings, or even DeRozan as an extra core guy. Hell even Cassipi is showing more promise right now.
    I like TT at 4 mil, but don’t like him at 6 mil, and I think some Dumars type will give him 6 mil. Ridnour could be a sleeper. Rodriguez would be nice – a big pg that can push the ball. And I don’t hate Garcia even, but wouldn’t make sense to take him back. Would you do Hill, Jeffries, Hughes AND Douglas for TMac and Rodriguez? No draft picks?

  49. Caleb

    Frank O., there are few things uglier than 30 games of garbage time with a bunch of guys who know they’re playing somewhere else next year.

    I think TT is worth at least $4-5 million right now – he’s averaging more than 2 steals, 2 blocks and 9 boards per 36 – but I wouldn’t get into a bidding war with another team paying for “potential,” and I wouldn’t sign him if it cramps our style bidding for the big boys.

    Sergio is a great passer, especially in the open court – D’Antoni would have his guy out there to run the offense. On the downside, I hear he can’t or won’t guard anyone, and he can’t shoot — TS% was under 50 his first 3 years in the league. This year he’s up to 54 and making 36 percent of his 3-pointers!

    At the least he’d be a lot more fun to watch than Duhon. The way things are shaping up, I think Rodriguez would get about 40 minutes a game next year.

  50. iserp

    “I don’t know if that’s fair… the Kings are not the Montreal Expos. They would be wise to keep $7 million in cap room just like the big markets.”

    That’s close to the MLE, so it shouldn’t matter to them that much. I am not sure about the salary cap regulations, maybe the cap space it is worth more because you can take back more money in a S&T, or something like that. But that’s unlikely, and the cap space gives them more or less the same chance to get some FA than the MLE. So if they can get draft picks or young talent for renting their cap space, it may be worth for them.

  51. Caleb

    Knickfan makes a good point about Nate… if there’s really no draft pick in the deal, what was the point? Nate is a lot better than Eddie House. I realize the Knicks don’t want to pay Nate this summer, but there wasn’t any team in the league willing to give up a pick? Even a 2nd-rounder? Hard to believe.

    I know D’Antoni likes Eddie House, but he’s a FA this summer if they really want him on the team.

    “Would you do Hill, Jeffries, Hughes AND Douglas for TMac and Rodriguez? No draft picks?”

    No way, unless I KNEW it meant the difference of keeping David Lee or not.

  52. TheRooster8

    How do the NYK not do this deal? This has been DW’s plan since DAY ONE….and now he’s going to pussy out over Hill+2 draft picks? If the trade is not done, the knicks are looking at trying to sign one freeagent with subpar supporting talent. Again, this is what has been advertised as the plan all along, so why stop now….

    And how do we plan to trade JJ or EC during the draft or free agency period, NOBODY WANTS THEM, i think that has been made clear this season.

    Lastly, its not like DW has any idea how to draft anymore. Gallinari is a solid player, but j. hill may be the biggest bust in NYK history. He has no basketball ability, passing, dribbling, shooting, and extremely low BB IQ, not understanding things like “how to set a pick properly” or “defensive rotation”. If I was the Rockets, watching last night’s game convinced me NOT to trade with the Knicks. The only way the knicks get good is through free agency and trade, and here is the chance….remember DLee is the 2nd knicks draft pick to make an allstar team in 20 years….and he made it b/c of two injuries.

    Its time to gamble, b/c if we have the 2 max contracts and LBJ or Wade doesnt come, at least we know the NYK really gave it everything.

    as for the kings….sergio + tmac for hill, hughes, jeffries, and 1/2 picks is a great deal for knicks. sergio could start tomorrow on this team. and is a great future backup PG who plays for a reasonable price

  53. TDM

    “Gallinari is a solid player, but j. hill may be the biggest bust in NYK history.”

    Mike Sweetney, Slavko Vranes, Majiec Lampe, MARDY COLLINS, Milos Vujanic, Eric Chenowith . . . okay, I’m tired of typing.

  54. jaddddd1

    Rooster pretty much echoes my point from @57.

    I agree with you on the Knicks’ drafting woes too. Other than Lee, Gallo, Nate, and Wil, who have all been drafted in the last 5 years, the Knicks have made 1 draft pick since Patrick Ewing who has averaged 10+ ppg for their CAREER. (Rod Strickland; Mark Jackson was close at 9.9) Go back and look at the Knicks’ drafting history and then try to make the argument that we shouldn’t give up the picks for this TMAC deal. You can’t. Donnell Harvey, Michael Wright, the John’s Walter McCarty, Freddy Weis, Michael Sweetney, Lavar Postell, the list goes on and on and on. We’re one of 2 teams to have drafted only one person who has even made the All-Star team since 1990. Draft picks, while valuable to other teams, are pretty much always mistakes made by the Knicks.

  55. Caleb

    For the record, I am FOR sending all our picks out (I might insist on protecting them for #1-3)… if that’s what it takes.

    But I think we should push Sacramento — even getting 2 of the 3 draft sweeteners is a solid deal for them.

    1. The Knicks already have cap space to make a max offer even with Jeffries on the roster…

    2. They might not be able to make two max offers, even if they DO trade him. The cap would have to reach $54+ million. Not to mention, the odds of 2 max guys being willing to move, are not good. No one besides LeBron, Wade and possibly Bosh is even worth $15-16 million.

    I think this deal is about making room to sign David Lee (or any FA who will cost $9-12 million). Or I guess, possibly using Lee in a sign and trade for Bosh. If he wants to go to Toronto, Bosh wants to come here, Toronto is game, etc.

  56. Caleb

    ps I think Hill has a good chance to be better than Channing Frye. Not what you want from your #8 pick, not with the guys they left on the board, but nothing like the worst bust ever.

  57. nicos

    I can’t say I’m to thrilled about Sergio Rodriguez- yeah he’s shooting better this year but it’s in very limited minutes. I’d rather see Walsh offer Duhon and a 2nd rounder or two for Ridnour- I think he’s a much better fit for D’Antoni’s system. Even if you don’t see the Knicks re-signing him in the off-season (and given how few FA point guards there are Ridnour is likely to get an offer for more than he’s worth) at least you’d have a shot at seeing D’Antoni’s real system being run for a month or so and it’d give you a chance to see who’s a good fit going forward (especially if you wind up bringing a guy like Tyrus Thomas in).

  58. Caleb

    Chad Ford is writing that the Grizzlies might be willing to move Mike Conley… if we’re giving up some kind of draft package (Hill, 2012 pick and maybe a 2011 swap)… Conley+Steven Hunter’s expiring deal might be better than just McGrady. It only saves the Knicks $3 million next year (Conley doesn’t expire) but that would be a valuable $3 million – enough to re-sign David Lee. And Conley would be insurance in case the FA plan goes bust.

    Wonder if it’s worth it to the Griz. It’s a financial wash, if the Knicks throw in cash. They only have a few million in cap space next year, and it’s no FA destination. Would they rather have Conley, or Hill and our late picks?

    p.s. I would agree that Ridnour is better than Rodriguez right now, but we can’t afford to re-sign him if we want the cap room. whereas Rodriguez would be cheap. Not to mention, only 23 so still time to improve.

    Time for me to go back to work…

  59. tastycakes

    So much for Daryl Morey, Boy Genius, huh?

    I *really* don’t get the T-Mac move from the Rockets perspective. He gives up one of his best players (Landry) to move an expiring contract, just so he can get a one-dimensional, injury-prone guy with a bad contract (runs 3 more years at more than 11M per, I think)?

    How was the Knicks deal not better?

    I’m guessing that Walsh has been holding out so that he doesn’t give up all 3 assets in the proposed deal (Hill, swapped pick in 2011, pick in 2012) and that’s probably for the best.

    And if you’re Sacto right now, you feel good because you got out from Kevin Martin’s terrible contract, why would you need as much from the Knicks as what they offered Houston? Even taking Jeffries back wouldn’t be so terrible for them, because his contract is far less onerous than Kevin Martin’s .. at the end of the day, they’re still way ahead on money saved, and they have useful players.

    (p.s., what’s with people accusing Donnie of not having the stones to include Jordan Hill to make this deal and somehow thereby ruining the offseason plan? Are you guys paying attention at all? First, nobody has said that he’s not willing to include Hill. Second, he’s clearly holding out for a better deal. It’s not like we suddenly decided to trade for Vince Carter and Elton Brand, we are still 100% on track to make big free agent offerings *this* offseason, with or without a trade!)

  60. KnickfaninNJ

    The draft disasters just go on and on. Remember when the Knicks had three first round draft picks in a row and didn’t get anyone who did much of anything?

    I know what Jaddddd1 means and sympathize, but I hate to give up on the draft. At the moment the Knicks seem about to trade their best defender, a prospect with potential growth and future draft picks for aging injured talent that isn’t known for defense at all. Jeffries seems overpriced now, but he won’t be next year when free agent prices go up because the 17 or more teams that are under the cap start competing for the name free agents out there, most of whom will resign with their current teams anyway.

    This makes me long for Isiah as GM (but never as coach). At least he knew how to draft and went after young talent in trades instead of going after old talent.

  61. iserp

    @61, yep, the wizards could be intriguing. If they stick to Gilbert Arenas and then sign some top FAs, they would be a nice team. However, i don’t think any top FA wants to be near DC after all the gun-related affair (well, except Lebron, who is used to living with Delonte West and wouldn’t mind; however Lebron will sign to the Clippers and die in an unrelated car accident)

    I would like to see Sergio in the Knicks. I am Spanish, and i am a bit worried that he is getting very few minutes. In Portland, he was in a system he didnt like; and in Sac he has been stuck behind the ROY, the franchise player (until a few hourrs) and a much improved Beno Udrih. He would be a perfect fit in the Knicks, and if the experiment doesn’t work, he becomes a FA next summer. I think S-Rod has lots of upside.

  62. tastycakes

    #96, right, because the Isiah regime was famous for its quality trades. We’re giving up a valuable asset *this year* because of the Stephon Marbury deal! Are you kidding?

    Look, so much of the draft is luck — as in: where you land when the ping pong balls come out of the machine. If we were #7 this year instead of #8, we would have drafted Stephen Curry, and we’d all be incredibly excited about the young gun’s future. Certainly, we could have done better at #8, but we also could have picked Terrence Williams, or DeMar DeRozan, or James Johnson, or Jrue Holliday, or Jeff Teague, or Austin Daye, etc etc. There were plenty more misses than hits left on the board.

    (Of course the stats-oriented guys were all saying Ty Lawson and DeJuan Blair, and we could have had both of those dudes, which makes me sad).

  63. SJK

    @67, how could you possibly long for Isiah Thomas to be anywhere near this organization? It’s his moves that got us into this situation in the first place. Without him we don’t even have to trade Jared Jeffries. And there’s nothing to say he went after young talent (steve francis)

    It’s too early to criticize Walsh, but if he doesn’t make a move by the 3 PM ET today, I will definitely be critical. Walsh MUST do something.

  64. tastycakes

    “Walsh MUST do something”

    Why? Standing pat means we have enough cap space for a max FA this year and enough cap space for another next year. Plus all our picks. Standing pat is totally fine.

  65. jaddddd1

    Tastycakes, we might have enough space, but what incentive is there for anyone to come here? You really think LeBron is coming to play with Wilson Chandler and Danilo Gallinari? Wouldn’t he much rather go play with Wade? Or Hickson, Mo Williams, Jamison, West, Parker, etc? Or even Davis, Gordon, Griffin, and Kaman? Those are all more attractive options. If Walsh does make a move, then LeBron has the option to play with Wade in NY. Or Bosh in NY. Or FA of his choosing in NY. Many, many more options. As it stands now, we couldn’t even bring in LeBron and keep Lee. So yes, Walsh MUST do something.

    By doing nothing, we do have the space to make noise in the next 2 summers, but no one is going to want to come here. We have what seems like only 2 players who will be contributors on a good team (I’m not counting Hill or Douglas as that yet, and assuming Lee is gone if we sign LeBron) and no draft pick this year. And then if we strike out? We’re really counting on winning the lottery in 2011 AND making the right pick AND signing a big FA to come play with a core that includes no one too special. That’s just as big of a risk as betting it all on this summer.

  66. Loathing

    Actually, Tasty, with all the contracts that Sacto has expiring in 2011, they might be a team worth throwing Curry into the mix for T-Mac…the Kings won’t be a player this offseason, but sheesh, a post-lockout core of Tyreke, Casspi and Carmelo? Schnikies!

  67. SJK

    This is all just my opinion, but I feel that Walsh must do something because I’m not confident that we have enough to attract a big free agent and I cannot sit through another season of losing. And as you said moves are exciting lol

  68. ess-dog

    Thomas to the Bobcats for conditional 1st rounder, Acie Law and Flip Murray! Larry Brown always lusted after TT…

  69. jon abbey

    “By doing nothing, we do have the space to make noise in the next 2 summers, but no one is going to want to come here. ”

    dude, it’s NYC. this really isn’t going to be an issue, trust me.

  70. TDM

    Caleb @91:

    I hope that rumor isn’t true. I like Conley, but not at that price. There are plenty of other UFAs that the Knicks could pick up in the offseason without giving up Hill or picks.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=ridnolu01&y1=2010&p2=farmajo01&y2=2010&p3=conlemi01&y3=2010&p4=feltora01&y4=2010

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=conlemi01&y1=2010&p2=lawac01&y2=2010&p3=blakest01&y3=2010&p4=watsoea01&y4=2010

  71. SJK

    Can anyone explain to me why we did the Robinson deal? It seems we just traded a younger player for an older version of the same player, but both will be gone next year anyways right?

  72. Caleb

    SJK, you understand the Nate deal all too well…

    TDM, I’m talking about a deal that moves Jeffries…. not just giving up our picks for Conley. (I like him but not not THAT much).

    We would only save $3 million, not the full $6.8 million, but we’d have enough room to bag LeBron and still re-sign David Lee.

  73. bbbb00123

    I really like what Walsch has done as far as the team and trading and everything, but I think he’s made a few big mistakes. I think he’s doing the right thing with this Houston deal, holding out, and not giving up too much the way Isiah would’ve. But, at the same time, wouldn’t everything have been better had we traded Nate and Jeffries for Kenny Thomas’s expiring in the offseason? Think about it.. what good did not making that trade do? Eddie House? Yeah, i’d much rather give up Nate to move Jeffires than giving up Hill and 2/3 draft picks to move Jeffries. That was a definite mistake Donnie made.

  74. Caleb

    As it stands now, we couldn’t even bring in LeBron and keep Lee.”

    Not necessarily true… but it’s close… numbers @63

  75. jaddddd1

    @Caleb, I read @63. Lee was shopping for $10+ mil/yr deals this past offseason. With an All-Star year in the books, why would he settle for less than that this summer? That’s why I think we can’t sign him as of now.

  76. Brian Cronin

    But, at the same time, wouldn’t everything have been better had we traded Nate and Jeffries for Kenny Thomas’s expiring in the offseason? Think about it.. what good did not making that trade do?

    That trade was never confirmed as actually existing.

  77. ess-dog

    Kings are “supposedly” talking about D-Lee in a deal now. Do we end up with Landry and/or a 1st rounder this year? God, my head hurts…

  78. Caleb

    jaddd, you might be right, but the Knicks can offer 6 years and no one else can offer more than 5… and he has a lot of competition out there (LeBron, Bosh, Wade, Boozer, Stoudemire, Johnson, for a start..)

    We’re in trouble if the cap comes in so low we can only start around $6 million. But if we can start around $7.5 and make it a 6-year deal — that’s $55 million — Josh Smith money. Walsh only offered about $30 million, last year. It might be enough, considering that Lee likes it in NY, he’s already rich and he’d be playing with LeBron. He might have to give up a few dollars, but I dunno that many teams would pony up, say, $70 million.

    Of course if we could remove Jeffries it would remove the suspense.

  79. Brian Cronin

    Ha!

    I love that that’s a headline – “Sacramento interested in David Lee.”

    Congratulations on your interest, Sacramento!

    Hilariously silly.

  80. TDM

    New York Daily News indicated that Walsh spoke with the Bucks about a trade involving Ridnour and Jeffries. Apparently, the line went dead. I’m a little shocked that Walsh couldn’t get any traction with a package of Jeffries and Hill for Ridnour, and maybe Joe Alexander. At least the Bucks would be getting something back for Ridnour in Hill, and the salaries would match up. Not to mention, Jeffries brings much more to the table than Alexander, and the Bucks won’t be players in the free agent market until the summer of 2011 anyhow.

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ygl6mw3

  81. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, tastycakes, I was just about to write that very same sentiment. There’s less than three hours left to go and the Kings are just effing around apparently.

    Yeah, Sacramento, David Lee will agree to give up his Bird Rights to play for you for 30 games!

    Ridiculous nonsense just wasting time.

  82. Ricky_J

    I think it’s really foolish to devalue draft picks for the Knicks based on long term history. Who cares that Layden (or Checketts or whoever it was) struck out thrice in 1996?

    A different GM picking different players in a different era under different rules offers ZERO predictive value for how future draft picks will pan out.

    Factors that do have some–although not much–predictive value: Walsh’s specific track record, estimates of our likely record, strength of draft class, positional needs/availability etc.

    I don’t advocate holding onto draft picks at all costs, but at least weigh the relevant factors in decision-making.

  83. Brian Cronin

    Doesn’t Lee still have his Bird rights?

    Egg-zactly.

    And the idea that Sacramento would even dream of him giving them up for absolutely nothing is quite aggravating. Sacramento is irking me big time right now.

  84. Caleb

    I would have hung up on Walsh, too… without Jeffries eating theircap space they could take on a real player in a trade. Jordan Hill isn’t enough.. Now, throw in Marcus Landry and you’ve got a deal!

  85. TheRooster8

    Trade DLEE for Carl Landry? Are you outcha damn mind DW? Plus, thank GOD, Lee can’t be traded without permission, and i doubt he’s anxious to battle the leagues best big men night after night on one of the worst teams in the league. At least now he is a NY star. In Sactown, no one will ever hear from him again.

    The questions here are:

    1. Are we trying to get LBJ?
    2. Will LBJ sign w/NYK w/roster as constituted?
    3. Do we need at least another near max player other than DLee to get LBJ?
    4. Has this been the “plan” from day 1 of DW’s watch?

    The answers, are yes, NO, YES, YES. So why drag the feet. It’s time to sh-t or get off the pot. You do the trade, if it works and we get our free agents, great. If it doesn’t, then the knicks have been feeding their fans a line of BS so big for the last 3 years that even Isiah Thomas would be surprised. Walsh has traded away an all star and 20/10 guy in Randolph, the probably sixth man of the year in J Crawford, and drafted, i repeat, the biggest bust in NYK history….this is a draft where 5-10 NBA STARTERS went AFTER the knicks picked, and they still wiffed. How again is this worse than the position Isiah put us in?

    This was the strategy, now the chance to put it to action is here. Let’s go.

  86. ess-dog

    Yeah there’s no way Lee goes to Sacto. I’m also surprised we aren’t focusing attention on Memphis with some sort of Jeffries/Hill trade. Maybe a 3 way with them and the Bucks makes sense?

  87. Brian Cronin

    I would have hung up on Walsh, too… without Jeffries eating theircap space they could take on a real player in a trade. Jordan Hill isn’t enough.. Now, throw in Marcus Landry and you’ve got a deal!

    I’m cool with a super quick “no way,” but actually hanging up on another GM?

  88. Loathing

    Sorry for the multi-posting, but my brain’s working slowly today…The whole point of the Nate deal is to get rid of a malcontent who’s trying to undermine the coaching staff, as was evidenced against Sacramento. A 3 for 2 (looks like Landry’s gone, yeah) will cover that. Actually, if you reference #14, I mentioned it’d have to be a 3 for 2 with Landry going over, but I had Shelden Williams instead of JR Giddens coming. Close enough.

  89. Caleb

    How again is this worse than the position Isiah put us in?”

    We have max free agent room, an All-Star power forward, we aren’t capped out for six years and we have all our draft picks (except 2010!)

  90. TDM

    From Berman’s twitter:

    Marc Berman: Arn Tellem tells me 3-way talks ongoing between Knicks-Rockets-Kings and could well be the same Knick players involved without the picks. 58 minutes ago.

  91. Robert Silverman

    This is too much for my delicate constitution. I’m going to go try to figure out something else that’s seemingly as impossible as unloading Jared Jeffries w/o agreeing to have a pound of flesh hacked off, like making theater in a culture/society that doesn’t…well…actually like going to the theater.

    See you at 3pm fellas. I’ll bring the smokes if you bring the vodka

  92. Caleb

    “I’m cool with a super quick “no way,” but actually hanging up on another GM?”

    Figure of speech!

    On another note, the dumping of Nate is another black mark on Walshtoni. A small one, maybe, but still.

  93. jaddddd1

    Rooster, Isiah also trade FOR Randolph and Crawford and their boat-sized contracts. He traded what turned out the be the #2 and #9 picks in consecutive drafts for Eddy Curry and paid him $60 million. He traded this year’s 1st rounder for Stephon Marbury, probably the biggest albatross in Knicks history. Drafted Trevor Ariza, and then shipped him out for Steve Francis (who was turned into Randolph, in a trade which we also gave up 3-point contestant Channing Frye, who is basically Jordan Hill in 5 years). Don’t try to make a serious argument that Isiah did better than Donnie is. We’re lucky to even be in the situation we are now, considering what Donnie inherited on the roster. We’re all just being greedy, but this is New York, and we want to win, so we have that right, I think.

  94. Brian Cronin

    Figure of speech!

    For you, yeah (because you’re not a jerk), but the article is claiming it actually happened, right?

  95. Loathing

    That wouldn’t be bad at all TDM. I can totally live with that.

    But does anyone agree with me that if Lee loses his mind and accepts a trade to Sacto, the Kings would HAVE to take both Jeffries AND Curry?

  96. SJK

    How awesome would it be if we never had to watch Jeffries miss another lay-up or bobble another pass again?

    He goes today, I’m willing to bet that Walsh will find a way to get rid of him (and his contract) before the day ends.

  97. Brian Cronin

    Oh, and…

    On another note, the dumping of Nate is another black mark on Walshtoni. A small one, maybe, but still.

    Agreed.

    It’s kind of ridiculous, really. If there was a draft pick, then fine, but otherwise, losing Nate now rather than at least seeing if there is a sign and trade out there during the offseason makes sense because….what, D’Antoni can’t even have him on the same bench as him?

  98. steveoh

    I don’t think the Nate Robinson trade is a basketball move, but rather a D’Antoni “I just don’t want this sophomoric guy anywhere near my team” move.

    It doesn’t matter. We’re not going to the playoffs.

    A draft pick would have been nice.

  99. steveoh

    @144 “a sign and trade out there during the offseason…”

    I could be wrong, but didn’t we try to do that last season?

  100. Robert Silverman

    It makes sense (Yes, yes, I’m leaving) b/c it gives you 30 games to give Toney D some burn w/o too much pressure. And you get two prospects (cough) in Giddens and Walker.

  101. Brian Cronin

    Sixers and Bucks agree to a trade. Ridnour and Iggy staying put.

    Yeah, what was the deal there? Who does that benefit?

  102. Brian Cronin

    It makes sense (Yes, yes, I’m leaving) b/c it gives you 30 games to give Toney D some burn w/o too much pressure. And you get two prospects (cough) in Giddens and Walker.

    You can play him anyways. Sit Nate down the rest of the year. Even if Giddens and Walker play well, the Knicks can’t afford to re-sign them. They’d have to renounce them.

  103. bbbb00123

    Alright, i was just messing around with the trade machine after hearing someone suggest working with memphis/milwaukee. Maybe something like this could work? maybe include draft picks somewhere?

    Knicks get: Luke Ridnour, Steven Hunter, Hasheem Thabeet
    Grizzlies get: Jarred Jeffries, Danillo Gallinari
    Bucks get: Mike Conley, Jordan Hill

    From our perspective, we’re giving up 3 contracts that we’d have next year, taking 11 million off of our cap room. We do pick up Thabeet, bringing that down to 7 though. Basically, we’re trading Hill and Gallinari for Thabeet, but also we get to drop Jeffries. Added onto that, Ridnour is a major upgrade over Duhon. Gallinari might be a high price to pay, but Thabeet still COULD end up being decent. I’m not sure if he’s a total bust.

    For the Grizzlies, Thabeet has clearly been worthless to them. They don’t pick up any more contracts next year because they dropped Conley and Thabeet for Jeffries, which all equals out. Basically, they traded Mike Conley and Thabeet for Danillo Gallinari. I think they’d be up for that trade.

    For the Bucks, they’re giving up Luke Ridnour, and picking up 6 million in contracts next year, but in return they get two young prospects in Hill and Conley. I’m not sure if they would do the trade, but i wouldn’t be surprised.

    Just an idea?

  104. Caleb

    Steveoh,
    If there were no sign and trade the Knicks could just let him walk for nothing, which is what we get from this trade.

    Bill Walker is at least interesting — before he blew out his knee the second time (right before the draft combine) he was a sure lottery pick. Some people had him top-5. Before he blew out his knee the 1st time (in high school), he was the OJ Mayo of his class.

    At this point I wouldn’t expect much (anything) – but if he somehow makes a physical comeback I could see him having an NBA career.

  105. Caleb

    “Even if Giddens and Walker play well, the Knicks can’t afford to re-sign them. They’d have to renounce them.”

    True, but if Walker looked good we could probably ask him to wait the 90 days or whatever it is… then come back for the minimum… it’s only a few hundred grand more than the rookie minimum.

    And of course if we aren’t getting a max guy there’s room, without renouncing.

  106. nicos

    I can’t imagine Lee is going anywhere though (and please correct me if I’m wrong) his bird rights are probably worthless as the Knicks are almost certain to renounce him so they have maximum cap space no matter what happens (If they can’t move Jeffries they’ll need to renounce him to get rid of his cap hold to make a full max offer to LBJ and if they can move Jeffries they’ll want to try 2 max offers). Still, I can only see Lee agreeing to a trade where he’d see significant minutes on a playoff team promising an extension.

  107. TheRooster8

    Didn’t Isiah draft Nate Rob, David Lee, and Wilson Chandler? obviously he was terrible for the team, but so far, DW is not much better. Especially if they do not go max cap room and instead try to woo 1 player to a team with no PG, no more DLee, and no more money to sign a 2nd star.

    If the knicks don’t pull this trade off and don’t sign a HUGE free agent a la LBJ, Wade or Bosh, DW should be fired.

    This is the gm who said he “didn’t have enough information” about a lottery pick…..isn’t getting that information his “job”? And what “information” lead them to pick a player that can’t crack their rotation….this is a bottom 1/3 team, how is our lottery pick not playing sig minutes?

  108. Brian Cronin

    I can’t imagine Lee is going anywhere though (and please correct me if I’m wrong) his bird rights are probably worthless as the Knicks are almost certain to renounce him so they have maximum cap space no matter what happens (If they can’t move Jeffries they’ll need to renounce him to get rid of his cap hold to make a full max offer to LBJ and if they can move Jeffries they’ll want to try 2 max offers). Still, I can only see Lee agreeing to a trade where he’d see significant minutes on a playoff team promising an extension.

    They can sign and trade him before having to renounce him, and in that scenario, he gets more money.

    In addition, they would certainly not renounce him anyways before they knew they had two max free agents to replace him.

  109. KnickfaninNJ

    @101, I didn’t mean to say that Isiah was a great GM. I agree that the Francis trade was bad, but he did eventually turn Francis into Randolph who turned into an all star or cap space depending on how you look at it. It seems like he was a horrible negotiator and not at all good at cap stuff, but many previous GMs have also been like that (for example, Layden). I also didn’t mean that I wanted him back, but I think he gets over blamed. The first year he coached the team was getting close to the playoffs when a lot of injury’s hit and the team he left was 6 and 5 (a winning record) when Walsh decided to trade talent for cap space. Since we didn’t have much else to enjoy about the Knicks, it was nice to see young talent getting better. So in my judgement he was just as good (or maybe I should say bad) as many Knick GMs. Walsh has an interesting strategy, but it’s very risky. He really has to excel at recruiting free agents next year against stiff competition (for example Miami). Otherwise the Knicks are toast for a while, and probably for a long while if he trades future draft picks this year.

    @135, how was Nate trying to undermine the coaching staff? I never saw that

  110. Caleb

    Loathing,

    That would be enough room for two max free agents AND re-signing David Lee. Too bad we can’t make that promise to him ahead of time!

  111. Brian Cronin

    By the way, to add to the “Sacto is just being ridiculous” argument, their last offer to the Knicks was for Lee and draft picks going to Sacto.

  112. Brian Cronin

    As an aside, Chicago got a nice return on Thomas.

    Good move for Charlotte, though, especially as they’d likely re-sign him (or at least see if anyone will beat his qualifying offer).

  113. Loathing

    Besides, would it be so bad to have one max + Lee? Look at Hollinger’s PER page and click on a tab marked EWA (stands for Estimated Wins Added, don’t need to explain that). You’ll see that Lee is NINTH in the entire NBA in that category. Yes, he’s behind the big three in that category, but with everyone else available this offseason, wouldn’t he then be the fourth most attractive FA?

  114. thepalerider

    @151

    Don’t the Knicks at least save a million in luxury tax on the Nate deal? I mean if D’antoni really does not want him why sit him when you can save some money. It’s not like we’re winning anything.

  115. KnickfaninNJ

    “We’re lucky to even be in the situation we are now, considering what Donnie inherited on the roster. We’re all just being greedy, but this is New York, and we want to win, so we have that right, I think.”

    19-34 doesn’t feel lucky to me. I hope Walsh really can sign great players.

  116. Brian Cronin

    Besides, would it be so bad to have one max + Lee? Look at Hollinger’s PER page and click on a tab marked EWA (stands for Estimated Wins Added, don’t need to explain that). You’ll see that Lee is NINTH in the entire NBA in that category. Yes, he’s behind the big three in that category, but with everyone else available this offseason, wouldn’t he then be the fourth most attractive FA?

    Lee is awesome, no doubt, but I wouldn’t really try to go by “Estimated Wins Added.” It’s a bit of a junk stat. PER isn’t perfect, but at least it doesn’t try to claim it is judging “wins added.”

  117. Loathing

    Caleb:

    That’s the point…ok, that and getting qualilty picks. Also a shot at Wall. That’d be nice too…nice dream…..

  118. TDM

    ESPN is reporting that another Knicks player is joining N8 in Boston as part of the trade. I would guess it would be Landry, but the trade machine is rejecting it.

  119. jaddddd1

    “19-34 doesn’t feel lucky to me. I hope Walsh really can sign great players.”

    I was more referring to our cap position than our record. The team is no better or worse than when Isiah was here, but we’re in a MUCH better financial position than any time during his tenure.

  120. steveoh

    Damn, this Kings situation is really interesting. They have to do something, right? They can’t afford Arn Tellum turning Tyreke Evans on them if McGrady doesn’t get his way. Tyreke’s their franchise.

    Big balls in Sac-Town.

  121. steveoh

    STEIN_LINE_HQ Sources close to the situation tell ESPN.com that all three teams have reached agreement on deal to send T-Mac to New York

  122. steveoh

    T-Mac and Sergio Rodriguez to NYK.

    Kev Martin/Jared Jeffries/swap of 2011 first with Knicks and 2012 first from Knicks to Houston.

    Kings get Carl Landry, Joey Dorsey and Larry Hughes’ expiring contract.

  123. Caleb

    Tellem got his wish… Tyreke can go back to bed.

    Awesome. I’m not worried about the 2012 pick, and the 2011 swap is worth the gamble.

    Meanwhile we basically guarantee the return of David Lee (unless we trade him for Bosh or Wade)… and hang on to Hill, who might be decent or at least another trade piece for the long run.

    I’m still bummed about the ridiculous Nate giveaway… and hanging on to Harrington seems like a waste – you’d think that some contender would be willing to give up a late draft pick, to get his help for the stretch run.

  124. nicos

    Brian- I’m sure your right on the two max free agents front but wouldn’t a sign & trade before renouncing Lee, unless it’s just for draft picks, bring back salaries which, unless the Knicks move Jeffries, would probably make it difficult to make a max offer? And as far as Lee’s estimated win average- he had another great line last night but was absolutely horrible on defense (Brad Miller abused him- even off the dribble). I’m all for resigning him at around 8-9 mil but if he’s asking over 10, I’d let him go because unless you pair him with an absolutely fantastic rotating shot-blocking big, he just gives up too much on the defensive end to tie up so much money (especially over a six year deal).

  125. Frank

    If this is as reported, I think Walsh deserves a big thumbs up. They get their PG who by all accounts is 4,000,000,000x better than Duhon even though he is just a career backup (I’m 3,000,000,000x better than Duhon), get McGrady, and keep Hill. Hill is Lee insurance in case he leaves in FA or S&T or is a trade piece they can use in the offseason if they resign Lee.

  126. Loathing

    Nicos – You forget…the Knicks have no true center…Lee’s a PF playing as a center, and putting up those numbers…put him on people his size and his defense will get lots better.

  127. Z-man

    So doing the deal this way instead of what Houston originally asked for boils down to keeping Hill and getting Rodriguez to make up for losing the two draft picks, no? I suppose that’s the question: will those picks offer better value than these two guys? Certainly seems worth the gamble to me.

    Nice job, Donnie!

  128. ess-dog

    WOW. OK, time for Hill to hit the gym and become a legit player. I hope he appreciates the faith Donnie has in him.
    And yes I really want Harrington to be gone already. He as more lives than Freddy Kreuger.

  129. jon abbey

    a lot to digest, but this seems like a very nice deal. Caleb, you need to give us a roster/cap update once everything settles, please.

  130. Frank

    Wait- ESPN’s article says Jordan Hill is going to the Rockets. Although all the twitter stuff says Hill is staying. I guess we should just wait for the official…

  131. Frank

    now Berman is reporting Hill stays. go figure. If Berman is reporting that he’s staying, I guess he’s probably going to HOU.

  132. Reebok1303

    Marc Stein just reported that three-way deal with Knicks is done — TMac to Knicks, Hughes to Sac, Jeffries to Hou with 2012 first and right to swap in 2011. Landry, Dorsey to Sac, Martin to Hou, no word on Sergio. Looks like Hill stays in NY.

  133. Loathing

    Yes Frank.

    Funny thought…plugged it into the trade machine as Stein reported it…it doesn’t work!!!

    Add Hilton Armstrong to the Knicks and it does.

  134. Frank

    Sam Amick from the SacBee reporting that the 2012 pick is protected to the top10 — that’s somewhat reassuring. Wow did we ever give up the house.

  135. Frank

    So at the end of the day — we gave Houston what they originally wanted (although the 2012 pick is protected, which is somewhat huge) but extracted S-Rod rather than useless bodies of Brian Cook and Dorsey. I think that has to be considered a win considering most of us here would have done the original trade anyway.

  136. ess-dog

    The Hill thing is a tough call. I don’t think anyone was enamored with him, but he was young talent. And if he’s gone, we save like $2.8 to throw at free agents, right? I’m not sure how to feel…

  137. TDM

    The right to swap 2011 picks may not be such a big deal.

    If NY ends up with a better record than HOU, HOU doesn’t exercise the option. However, if NY ends up with a worse record than HOU, they swap picks and NY saves money to throw at another big UFA. Meanwhile, HOU loses flexibility to sign their own UFAs – Yao, Brooks and Lowry.

    I agree with Frank that the top 10 protection on the 2012 pick is huge. Hopefully that is the case.

  138. TDM

    ESPN’s Chad Ford reports that the Knicks pick Knicks in 2011 is Top 1 protected while the 2012 pick is Top 5 protected.

  139. Loathing

    Ya know, we can be real bastards and sign Brooks or Yao away after 2011 when Curry goes. How funny would that be?

  140. jagermeister

    Quick questions:

    - If 2012 pick is top 5 protected, and we strike out in free agency and somehow get a pick in the 1-5 range during that year, does that mean Houston gets our 2013 #1 unconditionally?

    - Can we Bird DLee back to us after two max free agents? I didn’t think we’d be able to sign 2 max players since Lee’s cap hold would prevent that. Or am I off base? I hope I am, because that seemingly makes the Hill trade even bigger than it appears.

  141. Z

    1. This trade is anti-climactic because it is the same one we’d been told of, after several days of hoping Donnie was holding out for a better deal.

    2. Twitter should be outlawed as a news source.

  142. Brian Cronin

    Submitted on 2010/02/18 at 1:49pm

    Quick questions:

    - If 2012 pick is top 5 protected, and we strike out in free agency and somehow get a pick in the 1-5 range during that year, does that mean Houston gets our 2013 #1 unconditionally?

    Yep.

    - Can we Bird DLee back to us after two max free agents? I didn’t think we’d be able to sign 2 max players since Lee’s cap hold would prevent that. Or am I off base? I hope I am, because that seemingly makes the Hill trade even bigger than it appears.

    No, you couldn’t Bird DLee back after signing the two max free agents. You would have to renounce them to get the cap room.

    By the way, as Larry Coon so nicely noted awhile ago, with a $53 million cap, the Knicks would still have to find a little over $1 million to have the cap room to sign two max FAs, but they could get that pretty easily by buying out Curry.

  143. Z

    So the Knick roster, as of this moment, is:

    McGrady, Sergio, House, Giddens, Walker, Cardinal, Lee, Gallo, Chandler, Douglas, Bender, Curry, Harrington, and Duhon?

    How could LeBron possibly say no?

  144. Caleb

    With two years of max cap room to play with, the 2012 pick is almost guaranteed in the 20s. But it’s good to have insurance.

    Sucks about Hill but it’s basically our David Lee return guarantee – I’d call it a no-brainer.

    Sergio is due a qualifying offer of $2.8 million next year. My guess is if we make that handshake deal with LeBron in the waiting period, we’ll renounce Sergio (or trade him)… if we’re whiffing on FAs, we’ll hang on to him. He’s probably as good as any pick you get in the 20s, anyway.

  145. Caleb

    “the Knicks would still have to find a little over $1 million to have the cap room to sign two max FAs, but they could get that pretty easily by buying out Curry.”

    How would that work? I think his original salary would count against the cap, even if he gave up money in a buyout. Otherwise he’d be long, long gone already.

    I would tend to rather keeping David Lee (and the extra cap flexibility) than signing Bosh for an extra $6 million, but I guess it depends on the details.

  146. Brian Cronin

    What would be amusing is if the Knicks do end up with two max free agents, they would, indeed, have Chandler, Gallo and Douglas to work with, but the other TEN players on the team would be making the minimum!

    That’s pretty hilarious.

    I suppose the Knicks would really push to get the two max free agents to take ever so slightly less so that they could keep Curry on the team and then trade him for a longer term contract. Or trade Chandler for a center.

  147. Z

    And as draft picks go, as of this moment:

    2010: 2 2nd round picks
    2011: Houston’s 1st round pick, no 2nd round pick
    2012: 2nd round pick

  148. Brian Cronin

    How would that work? I think his original salary would count against the cap, even if he gave up money in a buyout. Otherwise he’d be long, long gone already.

    Option years can be bought out at up to 50% of the salary and not have it apply to the cap.

    Obviously, though, Curry would insist on taking no less than basically $10 million (as $1 million is roughly the veteran minimum, so if anyone signed him, he’d automatically make that much – and the league actually helps teams pay the veteran minimum, so if a team signed him to the vet minimum, it’d only cost them something like $700,000).

  149. ess-dog

    Haha Z, that’s the pu pu platter of rosters. Does Harrington now start again? Douglas takes Nate’s minutes I guess. We really have to cut Cardinal… And who is the starting point guard? TMac? If you put TMac at the 2, does Chandler or Gallo go to the bench?

  150. Loathing

    You all do realize, once this and the Nate deals go through, we’ll have EIGHT guards on the roster?

  151. Brian Cronin

    I imagine the starting lineup is:

    1 – Rodriguez
    2 – Chandler or T-Mac
    3 – T-Mac or Chandler
    4 – Gallo
    5 – Lee

  152. jon abbey

    Kevin McHale killing the Knicks on NBA-TV now, that clinches this as a very good move.

    “And who is the starting point guard? TMac? If you put TMac at the 2, does Chandler or Gallo go to the bench?”

    not that it matters at all, but I think this team might actually be improved for the rest of this season, depending on how long it takes Sergio/McGrady to fit in:

    PG: Rodriguez
    SG: McGrady
    SF: Chandler
    PF: Gallinari
    C: Lee

    bench: Harrington, Douglas, Duhon, ????

    it’s hard to argue that Duhon/Jeffries to Sergio/McGrady is a downgrade, and hopefully Douglas will do something with his minutes.

  153. Loathing

    And once all this settles, here’s what I see:

    Starters:

    Rodriguez
    McGrady
    Chandler
    Gallinari
    Lee

    Rotation:

    Harrington
    House
    Douglas

    Pine-Riders:

    Duhon
    Giddens
    Walker
    Bender

    Inactive:

    Curry
    Mobley

  154. massive

    @Brian You know that’s a matador front-court, right? I mean its what i imagine too, but we are really slim down-low. maybe we can get thomas?

  155. jaddddd1

    D’Antoni will probably still insist on starting Duhon for the same asinine reasons he has done that all year.

    Probably Duhon, TMAC, Wil, Gallo, Lee start – Sergio, House, Al off the bench.

  156. Frank O.

    I was just thinking the Knicks backcourt is way better now…I think Radriquez is going to love D’Antoni’s system. I’m a little shocked we got him…
    The dude can play.

  157. Loathing

    Looking at it now, the only other center on the roster now is Curry…someone tell me please he’s healthy?

  158. Brian Cronin

    It could be verrrrrrrrrry interesting to see how the Knicks fill out the back end of their roster next season. There are often a lot of unheralded, undrafted players on there, and now the Knicks will have a bunch of them on the team.

  159. Frank O.

    Are they done dealing? Are there any other things out there?
    I have to believe they are looking to get something from Harrington’s expiring contract…
    I’d love to see the Knicks move him and get back some picks…

  160. Ricky_J

    Too bad we didn’t get Ty Thomas. I would have liked watching a final playoff push with a starting line up of:

    rodriguez/mcgrady/galinari/thomas/lee

    That’s a reasonably balanced lineup with good ball movement.

  161. Loathing

    Would be nice to see Frank, but I’d rather see Duhon go somewhere for a center…Marcus Blount maybe?

  162. Jeff

    I don’t know how this is going to work out but NO MORE JARED JEFFRIES MISSING LAYUPS YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

  163. TheRant

    A few have posted above about how this latest trade leaves us with *eight guards on the roster* and a *matador front court*. Perhaps.

    I would like to remind everyone that the focus is on rebuilding, on the long term. So who cares if there are eight guards if three of them will be waived this summer? And the matador front court just means that we will need to keep our focus on defense when we look for free agents this summer (and next summer).

    Yes, we will all miss JJ’s taking a charge now and then as we watch our opponents score 130 points in the coming weeks. But we will also remember that there was a $6M price tag on taking those charges (and I’ll take them for less, as long as health insurance is included). And our guard situation couldn’t be worse than it was with Duhon and Hughes.

  164. Z

    The most confused person in all of this is Kenny Thomas. He’s had his house on the market in Sacramento for 4 years now, and he’s still not going anywhere.

  165. Loathing

    Would be nice to see Frank, but I’d rather see Duhon go somewhere for a center…Tony Battie maybe?

  166. Brian Cronin

    Hahn just tweeted that it might be Sheldon Williams instead of Bill Walker.

    That would make a lot more sense.

  167. Loathing

    Dangit, got messed up again…still wouldn’t mind a Duhon/Battie trade…think NJ would be up for it?

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