Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, September 18, 2014

Thunder 112, Knicks 100

New York Knicks 100 Final
Recap | Box Score
112 Oklahoma City Thunder
Carmelo Anthony, SF 36 MIN | 5-19 FG | 4-5 FT | 7 REB | 5 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 15 PTS | -9

In a sense it wasn’t as bad as you probably think. He actually passed very well and hit the boards nicely. You could argue that it’s a bit unfair that Melo gets called one-dimensional and selfish when he scores a ton but when he DOESN’T score, the rest of the line doesn’t even matter to the same people as they pounce on him.

All of that said, he was beaten up on both ends by Kevin Durant today in a game where he was going to have to play that matchup to something resembling a draw in order to get the victory. It’s a bad performance.

Tyson Chandler, C 32 MIN | 5-6 FG | 2-3 FT | 7 REB | 1 AST | 2 STL | 2 BLK | 1 TO | 12 PTS | -10

Had a few flashes (a big block stands out especially) of actually being, you know, “Tyson Chandler.” But has still never looked like the same guy all year and today was only sporadically an exception to that. His offensive game is so conservative that even when he has a bad day his stats will never scream out “I stunk today” at you but…yeah, he stunk a little bit today.

Raymond Felton, PG 34 MIN | 7-14 FG | 0-0 FT | 7 REB | 7 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 16 PTS | -14

What do you want from him? He actually kept them in the game (!) with scoring (!!!) in the first quarter, where he dropped 10 of his eventual 16 including a loooong contested three to open the afternoon’s scoring and some really nice work from floater range. He was mediocre at best on the defensive end, got caught a couple of times straying away from Derek Fisher who you should basically never give space to because he’s about as likely to blow by you as, well, Raymond Felton. In the end though it’s 16-7-7 and if everyone played as close to their ceiling today as Felton did, this is probably a win.

Pablo Prigioni, PG 22 MIN | 2-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 4 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 5 PTS | +1

5/4/1/1 on 2/2 and 1/1 in 22 minutes? I believe the Spanish word for that stat line is “Un Prigioni.”

Iman Shumpert, SG 22 MIN | 4-9 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 12 PTS | -5

Came out of the gate hot off of corner catch-and-shoots. That’s really the only shot he should ever be taking other than an uncontested dunk or lay-up. I increasingly get the impression that the scouting report is to help off of him, especially when Melo drives, and he has to be able to hurt teams for it because his defense hasn’t gotten to the point where he’s worth playing 4-on-5 on offense. That was demonstrated in spades today by his inability to do anything to check Durant — a forgivable vice but also an indication that we got a bit ahead of ourselves in thinking he was an All-NBA type of defender. The troubling part, though, is that he doesn’t really seem to be improving on that end, no matter his assignment. In crunch time the minutes that would once have been his went to Hardaway and the odds are fairly good of that becoming the new normal.

Jeremy Tyler, PF 11 MIN | 4-8 FG | 2-2 FT | 5 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 2 TO | 10 PTS | +2

Is there a good basketball reason that Jeremy Tyler isn’t the first big off the bench? Especially when Melo is on the court. It would be better for everybody if we subbed Tyler in first to play off of Anthony and then let the O run through Amar’e and JR when Melo got a blow. His athleticism is a revelation among his thoroughly analog Knicks teammates, he doesn’t pooch easy finishes and his motor on defense is impressive. There’s a lot of work to be done on his basketball IQ (I could do without the 18-foot stepback on offense, if you wouldn’t mind, and he certainly lacks Chandler’ preternatural sense of defensive spacing) but man, if we don’t at least use the rest of the season to figure out what we have in this guy then we are even dumber than I thought. Which is already pretty dumb!

Amar’e Stoudemire, PF 26 MIN | 5-11 FG | 6-7 FT | 4 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 16 PTS | -14

He’s just a role player at this point, of course, but he’s one who produces points pretty efficiently. His burst is still there a few times a game and his mid-range ability is one of the few elements of any Knick’s offensive game that actually creates matchup problems. A small gripe: he’s developed a Zach Randolphian tendency to catch in space and then waste his look with a series of herky-jerky hesitation moves that only serve to give the defense time to adjust. He’d benefit from quicker decisions and a slightly more straightforward approach.

Tim Hardaway Jr., SG 22 MIN | 2-6 FG | 1-2 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 5 PTS | -7

Not much today. He’s one of the three guys on the team (Chandler and Tyler) who would benefit the most dramatically from the acquisition of an above-average point guard. Not only would they be able to take better advantage of his developing ability to clear himself in the corners and on the wings but his ability to finish in transition could actually become something that we see more than once or twice a week.

J.R. Smith, SG 31 MIN | 3-10 FG | 0-1 FT | 2 REB | 5 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 7 PTS | -10

Can’t guard Kevin Durant, to the surprise of literally only Mike Woodson. Took a nasty knock to the head in the fourth quarter but returned to the game quickly. Hopefully the Knicks’ concussion tests involve something other than asking him what color an orange is and sprinkling Holy Water on his temples.

Mike Woodson

Would’ve been nice to try MWP on Durant instead of saving him for garbage time. Would’ve been nice if Jeremy Tyler got more than 11 minutes. Would’ve been nice to run some pick and roll and force the Thunder to move on defense instead of standing back with their bases covered and making the Knicks shoot over them. Would’ve been nice.

It’s been real and it’s been fun but it hasn’t been real fun.

53 comments on “Thunder 112, Knicks 100

  1. Cock Jowles, #1 Nostradumbass

    Did I see that danvt predicted that Knicks go 20-12 in their last 32?

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah wat

  2. max fisher-cohen

    20-12 only gets the Knicks to 40 wins, which probably leaves you the 7th seed. Hollinger playoff odds project the Bulls to get 40 wins for the 6th seed, and that’s before their win today. He puts NYK’s playoff odds at only 32%, which I think is mostly because 20 of their final 31 games are on the road. It’s too bad that’s the case bc if it was the reverse — if NY had 20 home games in their last 31 — they would probably have a 2-3 more losses right now and from a fan/pundit’s perspective would be soundly out of the playoff race, putting pressure on the front office to do the right thing.

  3. Brian Cronin

    There is no way, just absolutely no way, that the front office does the right thing. Melo and Chandler are not going to be traded. This franchise is just too dumb.

  4. flossy

    Any way we could pry Deng away from the Cavs? He obviously hates it there/isn’t coming back… Deng for Bargnani and Shumpert? If the front office doesn’t have the stones to cut Melo and Chandler loose, we might as well really go all in to put some more real players around them. If the above could be done*, I would offer Felton/THJ/lottery-protected 2018 first (or right to switch picks) for Lowry. I think a core of Lowry, JR Smith, Deng, Melo and Chandler could actually do some real damage this year (if it’s not too late to get to the playoffs) or the next 2-3 years with a better coach.

    *this assumes that if there’s another front office out there as dumb as ours, CLE might be it. But Shumpert is better than nothing, I guess, and Bargnani is an expiring contract? I dunno

  5. Owen

    I, predictably, thought that Chandler played a pretty solid game. We can’t guard anyone on the perimeter and he is the one looking bad for it. But he is playing decent defense actually and he’s a pretty easy guy to throw a lob to, as the Knicks remembered today.

    The Thunder are really good. Melo looked hurt after he banged his knee. But he was pretty awful. The contrast between Durant and Melo is extreme. Durant is just so much better than him it’s a joke.

    I think we are a lottery team from what I can tell. They should blow it up….

  6. BigBlueAL

    Im stunned Owen defended Chandler and took a shot at Melo after today’s game. Shocked actually.

  7. Owen

    I did say “predictably.” And I said I thought Melo looked hobbled.

    I continue to think the criticism of Chandler is way out of proportion to how he is actually playing. We don’t have anyone else on this team other than Prigioni who is even an average defender. I have given up on Shumpert. And on that play by Jackson you can blame Chandler if you like but he was really in no position to contest and shouldn’t have needed to. The perimeter defense was completely porous.

  8. maxwell_3g

    a few observations of mine
    1) stat has a good offensive game but his defense (especially help d) was insanely horrific. stat can complain about pt all he wants. play some D first
    2) there is no way that tyler should be getting only 11 minutes in a game. its time to see what we have with him
    3) felton, for all the good things he does, commits the worst turnovers. a very high percentage of his turnovers seem to be from over dribbling at the top of the key, leading to a steal and dunk at the other end. that should really count as two turnovers
    4) JR was just awful tonight. we have so many non winning players on this team that anything other than blowing it up is crazy

  9. nicos

    Chandler makes 14m dollars a year not the league minimum- he deserves just as much crap as every other underperforming guy on the team. Two years ago he was arguably the best show and recover big in the league- now he barely bothers to show at all. And his rotations from the weak side are continually late. Obviously, the fact that none of the guards, including Prigioni, can contain penetration makes him look worse than he is but his effort level has been pretty poor for a guy who wants to considered a team leader.

  10. JK47

    It’s all good– Melo’s gonna come back at a discount and we’re gonna pair him up with Kevin Love and Rondo, right? KNICKS 4 EVA

  11. pablopilot

    Not a championship team under any circumstances. But with decent coaching, this is at least a .500 team and should have won this game.

    Defense: poor help schemes, poor fighting through picks, no variety. See how the Thunder would throw in a zone or matchup zone from time to time and throw the Knicks out of rhythm? The Knickes NEVER do that kind of thing. Yes, Chandler’s d has suffered this year. But I think that’s largely because there is no scheme for him to coalesce around.

    Offense: Even when they do move the ball, it kind of wanders around the perimeter to guys standing around. No pnr, pnp, curls, double picks, nothing. When’s the last time you saw a Knick get a backdoor pass off the high post? Or go backdoor at all? Remember how we never ran a play to get Novak open? We never run one for Hardaway, either. This offense is obvious, predictable and breaks down at the slightest sign of bearing down by the other team.

    We could have won this game if we had better than a non-coach. I think the reason we won 54 last year is because Kidd was the de facto coach.

  12. pablopilot

    And one other thing: I haven’t looked it up, but I believe someone posted at one time that our efficiency out of timeouts was the worst. That was totally in evidence today — we only scored off a break if we got lucky. Coaching. Woodson has no imagination on offense or defense.

  13. max fisher-cohen

    @Brian Cronin, if the racist cheapskate over in Los Angeles can get his act together, then there has to be a chance the prodigal son in NY can do the same. If Melo re-signs at his max level this summer, I’m afraid I really might have to spend some time away from the Knicks as there’s no fun in rooting for a team that actively avoids contending for a title. For now though, I’ll keep hoping things will change.

  14. Brian Cronin

    Chandler makes 14m dollars a year not the league minimum- he deserves just as much crap as every other underperforming guy on the team. Two years ago he was arguably the best show and recover big in the league- now he barely bothers to show at all. And his rotations from the weak side are continually late. Obviously, the fact that none of the guards, including Prigioni, can contain penetration makes him look worse than he is but his effort level has been pretty poor for a guy who wants to considered a team leader.

    I do agree that he’s dogging it a bit because of his frustration with the defensive system (and I agree that it is poor form – extremely typical for the NBA, but still poor form), but in general, I think it is the perimeter defense that’s making him look bad, just like it did at times last year (before he got hurt, of course, which is when he became legitimately awful – and yet still had to be played constantly because he was better than what they had otherwise). When he had decent perimeter defenders around him in Fields, Jeffries, pre-injury Shump and Lin (Lin is one of the worst help defenders in the entire league, but he’s a respectable perimeter defender), he was the Defensive Player of the Year. Linsanity, in particular, was driven by the fact that the starting lineup (Lin, Shump, Fields, Jeffries and Chandler) was a lockdown defensive unit. It obviously shows how these awards have so much context to them that always get ignored, but we see that with every award, ya know?

  15. Brian Cronin

    @Brian Cronin, if the racist cheapskate over in Los Angeles can get his act together, then there has to be a chance the prodigal son in NY can do the same. If Melo re-signs at his max level this summer, I’m afraid I really might have to spend some time away from the Knicks as there’s no fun in rooting for a team that actively avoids contending for a title. For now though, I’ll keep hoping things will change.

    True, there’s obviously a chance in the future, but it won’t be any time soon. All the sources out there right not are saying that the Knicks aren’t even considering trading Melo.

  16. Brian Cronin

    What’s everyone’s take on this Marcus Smart thing? Currently, I’m on Smart’s side (although I’m okay with the suspension – that likely has to be an automatic thing. I’m talking from a moral standpoint).

  17. Brian Cronin

    Wow, what an ending! Paul George actually stole the ball but then missed the possible game-winning 20 footer.

  18. BigBlueAL

    Of course the perimeter D is awful, a far bigger problem than Chandler’s help D. But cmon man, even Hubie Brown was calling him out for not even bother to help on most of the uncontested drives to the hoop by OKC today. Jeremy Tyler lately is showing more effort in defending the hoop than Chandler is for crying out loud.

    Im always gonna be a bit of an ass towards Owen about Chandler since he did say he was better than Patrick Ewing :-)

  19. d-mar

    So Orlando beats the best team in the West and then next game beats the best team in the East, how weird is that?

  20. ephus

    Chandler had box score numbers that will drive up his WP/48, but an awful defensive game. In the second half, he was clearly dogging it on several occasions. Hubie called him out (in very muted terms).

    There is a natural trade to Phoenix for Okafor and the Wizards first round pick. It is time to start rebuilding. Chandler is not going to be good the next time the Knicks are.

  21. Owen

    Re Smart, I would say my level of moral condemnation would rise to about what I would feel for, turnstile hopping? Clearly, no chance of harming the guy.
    It’s a really dumb thing to do for an entertainer. Probably cost himself a couple hundred K in the draft next year….

  22. Brian Cronin

    There is a natural trade to Phoenix for Okafor and the Wizards first round pick. It is time to start rebuilding. Chandler is not going to be good the next time the Knicks are.

    I don’t think it makes sense to deal Chandler for a first rounder in the #20s. I think they need to get either an impact young player or a high first rounder (preferably a lottery pick). If you’re not getting a return like that, better to just hold on to him and see if the new coach works well with him (as noted before, JVG would love Chandler).

    That said, if the plan is to just blow the whole thing up then I guess I don’t care what they get for him, so long as it means actually blowing the whole thing up.

  23. DRed

    Philly down 23 with 5 minutes left in the first quarter. That’s impressive.

    Clips with 28, and Thad Young has 5. He’s the only 76 who has managed to score.

  24. ephus

    The Okafor contract is just about the only expiring $14 million piece on a contender that can be shipped out. Pacers would not want to bring in Chandler for Granger and they can’t trade a first rounder until 2016. The Wizards pick will probably be the best of Phoenix’s 4 potential first round choices.

    I’d rather have that pick than Minnesota’s, which is top-12 protected this year.

    Since Phoenix has cap room, the Knicks could try to dump Felton into the trade.

    I think Chandler is not likely to draw a lottery pick this year. And I fear his value will diminish next year.

  25. Brian Cronin

    I think Chandler is not likely to draw a lottery pick this year. And I fear his value will diminish next year.

    If not a sub-#20 pick, then a current young sub-#20 level talent. Otherwise, they might as well just hold on to him and let him leave after next season when they’ll have cap room to replace him. If they’re going to blow things up, then great, deal Chandler for whatever they can get. If they’re not going to blow things up, then unless they’re replacing him with a sub-#20 pick level talent (like OKC’s Adams) then they are going to have a huge hole at center next season without anyone to fill it.

    Plus, of course, the whole thing is moot since the Knicks are looking to add veterans not trade them. Because they’re owned by a moron.

  26. Robtachi

    Agreed. How about adding TOR and Lowry in the mix?

    Knicks: Get Lowry, Okafor expiring
    Suns: Get Chandler, MWP, Beno Udrih
    Raptors: Get Marcus Morris, Shumpert, Felton, Suns 2014 1st rd. pick from MIN, Knicks 2018 1st rd. pick.

    That’s way too much to give up for the possibility of re-signing Lowry and an expiring contract that won’t impact the Knicks’ cap enough to make any difference this off-season. If you’re shipping out Chandler, Shumpert AND a 1st rounder, that Suns pick should go to the Knicks, at the very least. In fact, the Raps are getting WAY too much in that deal; much more than they would have gotten from the Knicks had Dolan not veto’d the Lowry deal.

  27. mj1

    I liked how Hubie took apart the lack of NYK interior defense. Everybody keeps raving on Chandler’s defense, but how many times did we see him stand and watch guys drive right by him and just lay the ball in the basket, just as was pointed out on national TV. Other NYK bigs were guilty of this as well, but you expect more from Chandler. His defense should be rubbing off on the other guys, not the other way around. If Hubie sees this, wtf is wrong with Woody’s eyes? The dude must see this on tape everyday, yet it continues. And, they’ve gone back to that damnable switching. Time for Woody’s tired shyt to move on.

  28. er

    @6 I wonder if he said that last year after the game in okc where Melo went for 36-10 and durant shot 7-17 fg lol.

  29. lavor postell

    Seriously people are defending Chandler after that dogshit performance? Other than being a threat to finish alley-oops as the roll man in the PNR, which has value, what did Chandler contribute yesterday? He can’t elevate and finish in any capacity unless he has an unobstructed rim run and he got his shit stuffed by Ibaka an inch from the hoop that should be automatic for any NBA level big. Between him, Felton and JR I have no clue who played the most horrific defense, though the fact we all know the other too are terrible and lazy defenders makes Chandler’s level of effort on the defensive end yesterday even more glaring.

    Melo was more active than Chandler in protecting the basket, partially because he was on Perkins, but also because he actually rotated over a few times to try and block shots. Tyson had one block I can remember yesterday and then proceeded to watch the OKC layup line. Seriously Chandler was awesome in 2011-12 on the defensive end of the floor, regardless of who was out there with him. Some of that is because of better perimeter defenders, but a lot of it also is because he was a better player and gave a shit.

    Chandler through most of the beginning of last season was a tremendous offensive threat, but his defense clearly was in decline last year. He never shows on the PNR anymore and whomever the ball handler is gets an open lane to the basket while Tyson makes some token effort following which him and Felton stare and point at each other in confusion. Nobody on this team deserves any plaudits for their effort, production or performance this season other than Melo, THJ and Tyler, the latter two who very little was expected from this season. Melo got torched yesterday by Durant and was awful himself on the offensive end, but at least I can’t question his effort level, which is more than I can say for most Knicks on most nights this season.

  30. flossy

    Melo got torched yesterday by Durant and was awful himself on the offensive end, but at least I can’t question his effort level, which is more than I can say for most Knicks on most nights this season.

    I wouldn’t even say he got torched–he barely guarded Durant. Shumpert and JR got torched by Durant, and MWP played two whole minutes of garbage time.

  31. johnno

    @30 — so, you’re proposing giving up Shumpert, Chandler, the 2018 1st, MWP, Udrih and Felton for 35 games of Kyle Lowry AND an expiring contract? Hmmm. Might not be enough. Maybe the Knicks should include Hardaway, Tyler, Murray and their 2020 1st rounder. That might get it done. And maybe, in another trade, they can pick up an expiring contract for Melo.

  32. er

    Flossy you are right. Interestingly enough i thought he did a pretty decent job on KD. Who btw is way taller than his listed height of 6-9 as he towered over melo when the stood at the foul line.

  33. DRed

    Durant is preposterously good. Have we come to realize it wasn’t Westbrook getting him all those shots? I’m not sure what has led Woody to believe that JR is some sort of defensive stopper, but asking him to guard LBJ and Carmelo is not one of his better ideas.

  34. flossy

    Durant has got to be 6’11″ Standing next to Melo, they’re not even close in height. And yeah, he has taken his game to another level this year. It’s not really fair that someone close to 7′ tall can dribble, shoot and pass like that.

    Scott Brooks would never consider this, but to be honest I think it’s worth asking if Westbrook should come off the bench once he gets healthy. Jackson is clearly able to run the offense, and with the way Durant is scoring and creating for others it seems like they’re going to have diminishing returns with trying to make them co-focal points of the offense. Westbrook, on the other hand, would absolutely shred most 2nd team’s defenses and can easily carry an offense when Durant’s on the bench (obviously they would still overlap for much of the game, but still).

  35. johnno

    I’ve been as critical of Shumpert as anyone this year but asking him to guard Durant, even on a switch, is ridiculous.

  36. Owen

    “Flossy you are right. Interestingly enough i thought he did a pretty decent job on KD. Who btw is way taller than his listed height of 6-9 as he towered over melo when the stood at the foul line.”

    Durant is apparently 1.5 inches taller than his listed height. And Melo is also just 6’6.25 in his bare feet. So, that’s a big swing….

  37. DRed

    Melo or KMart are the only Knicks I can think of with the size to at least slow down Durant. His shooting range and his freakish build make him pretty impossible to stop, but he’s too big for Shump or JR to check.

  38. Tony Pena

    @johnno
    I like our guys as much as the next guy, but it’s not as preposterous as you make it. Chandler, the 2018 pick and Shump are the real chips, the rest is really filler. Maybe take out the NY 2018 pick. So for a declining Chandler and a “I need a new situation if I’m ever going to be an above average player” Shump you get Kyle Lowry. I think he’s worth it. The Knicks go into next year with a legit PG.

    This is obviously assuming Lowry and the Knicks have an agreement that he’s going to re-sign. And why wouldn’t he? Melo would be the best player he’s played with. If I’m correct the outgoing salaries would allow the Knicks to give him a fat paycheck.

  39. Tony Pena

    Watching the game yesterday I thought no way Scott Brooks is as bad a coach as sometimes he’s made out to be. There’s been some good drafting, but that’s 7-8 good young players (not counting Durant) that seem to have grown under him.

  40. Hubert

    Watching the game yesterday I thought no way Scott Brooks is as bad a coach as sometimes he’s made out to be. There’s been some good drafting, but that’s 7-8 good young players (not counting Durant) that seem to have grown under him.

    Yeah, too many people overlook his role in developing so many good young players (probably because everyone loves to think Presti is so damn smart that everyone he drafted would have turned out to be a good pro no matter what).

    We’ve seen first hand how important having a coach who can competently hold players accountable and instill good habits is (i.e. we’ve seen in by not having it under Woodson). How much better defensively might Shumpert be if he had a real coach?

    Brooks get most of his grief for his stubborn insistence on playing Perkins (and he deserves grief for that, for sure).

  41. johnno

    “Chandler for Deng ??”
    Last week I proposed using Shumpert and Chandler to try to pry Deng and Asik away from the Cavs and Rockets. I think that Deng is a good fit.

  42. Brian Cronin

    Brooks is better than guys like Woodson, but he has a lot of issues. For years, the offense was literally just “Whichever one of Westbrook or Durant who has the ball shoots.”

  43. DRed

    Brooks is better than guys like Woodson, but he has a lot of issues.

    See Perkins, Kendrick if you’d like an example.

  44. nicos

    “Chandler for Deng”
    No interest in Deng- he wants too much money (around 12m) and in a year without many high profile free agents someone is certain to overpay him- I’d rather not have it be the Knicks. Not only that but Thibs has run him ragged over the last few years so he’s got more mileage on him than your average 28 year old. While I think the Knicks should absolutely shop Chandler, I’m with Brian- don’t trade him unless you’re getting back a decent pick or a young, cheap late lottery type talent.

  45. iyasin

    If Melo shot well and/or the Knicks played any semblance of defense, I think the Knicks actually had a decent shot to win this game. Bc offensively they got production from guys they usually don’t get from. They got decent production out of chandler and felton…Tyler was good and STAT was serviceable. Even shump hit some 3′s. the Knicks were in this game but Melo just had an off day. Having said that even though Melo didn’t shoot well, the Knick D was deplorable. They couldn’t get stops…obviously Durant is hard to stop…that’s understandable…but they couldn’t stop anyone! Reggie Jackson was getting to the rim at will, Fisher was draining open 3′s (the one thing he can do at this point) they were leaving Ibaka wide open and perkins had 11 rebounds!! horrible defensive performance I’m surprised the Thunder didn’t put up 120

Comments are closed.