Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, August 20, 2014

THN Mock Draft: With the 24th Pick, the New York Knickerbockers select…

Do you like the NBA draft?

I do.

I like it very much.

Granted, in recent years due to the massive flurries of trades and wheelin’ n’ dealin’  (Stepien Rule notwithstanding) we Knicker-backers often have our grubby noses pressed firmly against the storefront window, befogging it and greedily eyeing all the shiny new 1st round toys just waiting to be snapped up, wrapped in their finest, Big n’ Tall suits and festooned with a New Era cap proclaiming their undying fealty to Cablevision and its affiliated companies.

In case you’ve gone through a few years of heavy therapeutic/self-administered (possibly extra-legal) medicinal treatment, despite a steady parade of Lottery-worthy Knickerbocker models, we’ve given away picks like so much manna from heaven.  Oh sure, Iman Shumpert is still around, flat-topping and accidentally revealing an alternate orange uni hither and yonder, but even when an ephebe has managed to sneak onto a cap-bloated roster, those able-bodied young men upon whom we placed so many of our hopes and dreams—Messrs. Gallinari, Fields, Lee, Balkman, et al.—are all plying their trade elsewhere in the far-flung corners of professional basketball.

So yay. Barring any last minute front office machinations, (knock on every three-dimensional object within striking distance that even vaguely resembles wood) the Knicks will sit patiently until it’s their turn and snag themselves a junior member of what is undoubtedly still a very senior-ish roster.

But I not only fancy the draft because of the untold, undefined promises of future glory, but because we, the hardscrabble, unwashed fans really do seem (emphasis on seem) to be on equal footing with the bespoke-suited professionals in the front office. We can read a bajillion mock drafts (and I do), peruse hours upon hours of YouTubed scouting tapes (and I do), parse the tea leaves of rumors and leaks and debunked rumors and unleaked leaks (PRO TIP: If you plan on watching the draft on the teevee machine, stay FAR AWAY from Woj’s Twitter feed. So. Many. Spoilerz.) and proudly declare that, “Player X is a late-round steal!” or, “Player Y is a draft bust waiting to happen, if TEAM Z takes him I will rend my Modell’s-purchased team garments!” and say so with total assurance that even if the scenario doesn’t come remotely true, for the next few weeks—you know, when they start playing actual games—you or I are completely wholly right.

But I digress.

Our man Dan Feldman, of the TrueHoop Network blog, Piston Powered has put together a mock draft. We bloggers all made picks for our various teams and yours truly got to dress up in Glenn Grunwald drag. Here’s how this imagi-draft went down (the blogger making the pick is in parentheses, lest you care to lambaste/deride him):

1. Cleveland Cavaliers: Alex Len (Colin McGowan, Cavs: The Blog)

2. Orlando Magic: Nerlens Noel (Eddy Rivera, Magic Basketball)

3. Washington Wizards: Otto Porter (Kyle Weidie, Truth About It.net)

4. Charlotte Bobcats: Victor Oladipo (Spencer Percy, Queen City Hoops)

5. Phoenix Suns: Ben McLemore (Ryan Weisert/ Kevin Zimmerman, Valley of the Suns)

6. New Orleans Pelicans: C.J. McCollum (Ryan Schwan, Bourbon Street Shots)

7. Sacramento Kings: Trey Burke (James Ham, Cowbell Kingdom)

8. Detroit Pistons: Anthony Bennett (Dan Feldman, PistonPowered)

9. Minnesota Timberwolves: Kentavious Caldwell-Pope (Steve McPherson, A Wolf Among Wolves)

10. Portland Trail Blazers: Cody Zeller (Danny Nowell, Portland Roundball Society)

11. Philadelphia 76ers: Kelly Olynyk (Tom Sunnergren, Hoop76)

12. Oklahoma City Thunder: Steven Adams (Royce Young, Daily Thunder)

13. Dallas Mavericks: Michael Carter-Williams (Ian Levy, The Two Man Game)

14. Utah Jazz: Shabazz Muhammad (Andy Larsen, Salt City Hoops)

15. Milwaukee Bucks: Shane Larkin (Jeremy Schmidt, Bucksketball)

16. Boston Celtics: Dennis Schroeder (Brendan Jackson, CelticsHub)

17. Atlanta Hawks: Rudy Gobert (Bo Churney, HawksHoop)

18. Atlanta Hawks: Jamaal Franklin (Bo Churney, HawksHoop)

19. Cleveland Cavaliers: Sergey Karasev (Colin McGowan, Cavs: The Blog)

20. Chicago Bulls: Giannis Adetokunbo (Michael Pina, Red94/CelticsHub)

21. Utah Jazz: Lucas Nogueira (Andy Larsen, Salt City Hoops)

22. Brooklyn Nets: Tony Mitchell (Jeremy Gordon, Brooklyn’s Finest)

23. Indiana Pacers: Reggie Bullock (Jared Dubin, Hardwood Paroxysm)

So that’s where things stood. On my many legal pads and soiled cocktail napkins I’d scribbled the names of a bunch of players I had in mind, but I was sorely miffed that a couple of my fave targets, namely Tony Mitchell and Reggie Bullock, were snatched away seconds before I could gobble either of them up like so many delicious, athletic, sweet-shooting, ridiculous upside-ery bon-bons. Thanks a lot, Dubin. Be warned, my reasoning for liking or not liking players, despite the mountains of information I consume prior to the draft, has ZERO basis in logical, well-reasoned thinking. There are guys I just like. Sometimes, I end up smelling like a rose. I desperately wanted Faried in ’11 (though I was happy with Iman Shumpert, mainly because I thought his name sounded like some kind of obscure Jewish delicacy. “Try the Shumpert. It’s a pickled herring in heavy cream sauce. You’ll love it!”), and I was screaming my lungs out that the Knicks should take Jrue or Ty Lawson at #8 in 2009.  Other times…well…not so good. I thought Renaldo Balkman was going to be a sneakily brilliant move, even if this lanky PG who couldn’t shoot out of Kentucky was still on the board. I forget what happened to him. As we know, for the actual gentleman making the selections, tonight’s draft represents untold hours of study, analysis, research, background checks and unauthorized NSA metadata wiretaps. And yet, teams still fornicate with the canine. So, we’re gonna Istick with my mystical, right-brained approach here in this mocking.

Anyhoo, knowing all that, I went with…

24. New York Knicks: Ricky Ledo (Robert Silverman, Knickerblogger)

BRING ME YOUR HATE.

Here’s my thinking (as it were). Yes, there are a couple of 23-year old Center/Power Forwards who could certainly provide solid minutes off the bench still on the board, namely Gorgui Dieng and Mason Plumlee. With regards to the former, I got scared away by the knee issues that have been cropping up and the outright horror of imaging the malapropistic knots Clyde Frazier would twist himself into trying to pronounce his name. Plumlee? I don’t like him. I can’t say why, other than ‘eff you, Duke/I didn’t like his brother Miles. Consistency, y’all. Plus, most mocks have him landing somewhere in the 17-21 range, and if my wise fellow bloggers are passing him by, they MUST KNOW SOMETHING. He can pout in the green room a few mins longer.

Then there’s the, “There’s a piece missing/one-dimensional wings” group—Alan Crabbe, Tim Hardaway Jr., and Tony Snell. I just don’t like the cut of any of their respective jibs. Especially Hardaway. I still loathe Tim Sr. And yeah, I know, “Sins of the Father” is so much bunk, but that’s how I rolls, when it comes to truly meaningless things like mock drafts.

So, my personal draft board came down to Ricky Ledo and Nate Wolters, and in this instance, I actually considered some basketball reasons.

Yes, with Prigs free agency and Jason Kidd’s decision to go eat artisanal cheeses and wear ironic T-shirts in BK, the Knicks are suddenly pretty thin at the point (Ray Felton’s midriff notwithstanding. BOOM.). The two-PG lineups were a key component of the team’s success, so picking up a young lead guard capable of pushing the pace would be of serious interest. Wolters by all accounts is a terrific ball handler and deadeye shooter with boffo range. At 6’5”-ish, he’d certainly be capable of lining up next to either Felton or Prigioni (Yes, I’m going to assume that Pablo’s coming back. I can’t begin to stomach contemplating the alternative.). The downside is, he’s considered a subpar athlete and a meh defender at best. Given that the Knicks allowed approximately 24 points/36 to opposing floor generals, Wolters’ difficulties staying in front of his man would only be exacerbated in New York.

That leaves Ledo. This would certainly be a risky move. He didn’t play at all at Providence last year because of the dreaded red flag-waving “disciplinary reasons” and is generally perceived to be something of a bad seed. The most common name tossed around when making comparisons is Qyntel Woods, animal lover. That said, he’s a phenomenal athlete and can get to the bucket at will. He’s also a solid shooter who can play some point. On pure upside, he’s probably a lottery-level talent.  Granted, that sounds a heckuva lot like a couple of players already on the roster (Cough…J.R. Smith….cough, cough, hack, sputter, wheeze), but in this draft, I think it’s a lot better to swing for the fences than settle for a cat whose upside is an end-of-the-rotation guy at best. You know why?

WILDCARD, BITCHES!

I’m sure all of you far-more-informed folks (or at least the ones not using Charlie Day’s exploits as his/her planning strategy) have better choices given how the board played out. Let’s hear ‘em. HAPPY DRAFTERDAY, EVERYONE!

 

375 comments on “THN Mock Draft: With the 24th Pick, the New York Knickerbockers select…

  1. Clyde_10

    Good job Robert I like Ledo also. Now if only you could convince pPortland to do a striaght deal Tyson for LaMarcus,or Cleveland to go Varejo and CJ Miles for Tyson I think the Knicks would come out of this off seasonb in really good shape.

  2. Frank

    best thing I’ve heard today, from Jared Zwerling’s twitter:

    @JaredZwerling: Spoke with Pablo Prigioni today. #Knicks extended qualifying offer yesterday. Said, “I would like to go back to New York. I miss New York.”

  3. Loathing

    Clyde_10:
    Good job Robert I like Ledo also. Now if only you could convince pPortland to do a striaght deal Tyson for LaMarcus,or Cleveland to go Varejo and CJ Miles for Tyson I think the Knicks would come out of this off seasonb in really good shape.

    I’d go Chandler for Varejao/Miles.

  4. Loathing

    Loathing: I’d go Chandler for Varejao/Miles.

    …or better yet, Chandler/24 for Varejao/1 (OK, I’m dreamin, but so what?)

  5. Keniman Shumpwalker

    Clyde_10:
    Good job Robert I like Ledo also. Now if only you could convince pPortland to do a striaght deal Tyson for LaMarcus,or Cleveland to go Varejo and CJ Miles for Tyson I think the Knicks would come out of this off seasonb in really good shape.

    DEAR GOD NO. Varejao is a terrible rim protector and is hurt literally always. I like him on some levels, but I’d rather take the chance on Tyson returning to DPOY status than Varejao staying healthy. Now, if the #1 was in there…

    Trading Chandler for Aldridge would be terrible. Aldridge CANNOT play the 5, is basically a poor-man’s STAT (peak version), and doesn’t really fit what we need. We’d then be stuck with no true center, shitty rim-protection, and a glut of power forwards who cost a ton. No thanks.

  6. danvt

    “In case you’ve gone through a few years of heavy therapeutic/self-administered (possibly extra-legal) medicinal treatment, despite a steady parade of Lottery-worthy Knickerbocker models, we’ve given away picks like so much manna from heaven.”

    Wait..what was I going to say about this…?

    Dude, Sliverman, you are fantastic and just what I need with the Yanks sucking and it being a slow news cycle and all. Shit, might even need to read the front page of NYT on a day like today.

    Anyway fellas, and of course all you ladies out there, Here’s how I sees it. Knicks need to get Smith back, top priority. Any chance we have to get back to even the level we were last season depends on that. He’s not Wade but he has elite skills and athleticism. We don’t have to his replacement on the roster. Shumpert needs to play his game, not JR’s. I really like Pablo and Cope and I hope we can keep both but not at the expense of JR.

    The guy we’ve proven we can win without is Amar’e. If he can have a good half season maybe there’ll be a deal on the table that enables us to put that last puzzle piece on the board. Other than that we’re probably headed to the 2nd round again. I’ll be there for the ride though. Go GG. Yeah, I’m with you on Ledo, Robert, whatever…

    Watch them pick someone no one ever heard of.

  7. danvt

    On Ledo, you always get a good bang for your buck on disciplinary issues type stuff. If you are, and we certainly are, an unscrupulous enough organization to take on whatever mountains of baggage a player may come with, you might end up getting the better player.

  8. Frank

    danvt: I really like Pablo and Cope and I hope we can keep both but not at the expense of JR.

    Cope and Pablo resigning has nothing to do with JR resigning. If JR wants to be back, he will be. If he gets a huge offer and he wants to bail, that’s on him. But nothing JR does affects Cope or Pablo at all.

    FWIW – Ruru tweeted that he thinks there’s a 75% chance JR is gone. Say what you want about Ruru but he definitely has sources close to most of these ex-Nuggets.

    If JR is gone, then Amare being healthy is an absolute necessity if we’re going to make any noise next year. That second unit needs a high-volume scorer, and Amare can be the centerpiece of that unit with Pablo and whoever else.

    That “whoever else” scares me — if JR and Cope leave, who does that leave on the second unit that can score?

  9. Zanzibar

    Frank:
    best thing I’ve heard today, from Jared Zwerling’s twitter:

    @JaredZwerling: Spoke with Pablo Prigioni today. #Knicks extended qualifying offer yesterday. Said, “I would like to go back to New York. I miss New York.”

    I would feel a lot better if Pablo had said “Knicks” instead of “New York”. Maybe he just meant to visit as a tourist. He’s commented he doesn’t like Melo/JR ISO ball. And he probably feels disrespected by Woodson wondering why Elbows Smith, out partying the night before playoff games, was getting all of those playoff minutes while stinking up the place in yet another playoffs. Still, we can match up to 3m (especially if retaining Cope is a lost cause) so it’s probably in his best interest to be very diplomatic. And he and his family would likely prefer Manhattan NYC to the cornfields.

  10. stratomatic

    “That leaves Ledo. This would certainly be a risky move. He didn’t play at all at Providence last year because of the dreaded red flag-waving “disciplinary reasons” and is generally perceived to be something of a bad seed. ”

    Should fit in perfectly on the NBA’s version of the “Dirty Dozen”.

  11. johnno

    Wanna get depressed? Check out SI’s latest mock draft. They’ve got Bullock, Dieng and Larkin going 20, 22 and 23 to the Bulls, Nets and Pacers. Ugh.

  12. Keniman Shumpwalker

    Zanzibar: I would feel a lot better if Pablo had said “Knicks” instead of “New York”.Maybe he just meant to visit as a tourist. He’s commented he doesn’t like Melo/JR ISO ball. And he probably feels disrespected by Woodson wondering why Elbows Smith, out partying the night before playoff games, was getting all of those playoff minutes while stinking up the place in yet another playoffs. Still, we can match up to 3m (especially if retaining Cope is a lost cause) so it’s probably in his best interest to be very diplomatic. And he and his family would likely prefer Manhattan NYC to the cornfields.

    Yeah given Pablo’s affinity for J Kidd and the Nyets need for a backup PG…yeesh. That would sting a bit.

  13. stratomatic

    1. JR leaving this year would be addition by subtraction even though we had him on a “theoretically” good deal for last year.

    2. Copeland is monstrously overrated here. He’s an efficient and fairly versatile scorer that’s a liability in every other way for his position. He nets out to EV- player.

    3. Prigioni is one of the few players on the team besides a healthy Chandler that is both EV+ and likely to be a good value for the contract.

    4. The Knicks only hope of not being worse next year is a big leap forward by Shumpert (which is feasible) or Amare being healthy and playing a large enough role on offense to keep Melo under wraps.

  14. stratomatic

    Marc Berman ?@NYPost_Berman 44s
    Think #Knicks not going to gamble on Mitchell-Ledo. Future is now. Hearing Glen Rice Jr. still in play

  15. Frank

    stratomatic: 2. Copeland is monstrously overrated here. He’s an efficient and fairly versatile scorer that’s a liability in every other way for his position. He nets out to EV- player.

    I’m really not sure where this kind of analysis comes from. Is it his rebounding numbers? With him on/off court, it’s basically a wash when it comes to rebounding according to 82games. The defense is a wash with him on/off the court according to 82games. his Synergy numbers are not strong – true. Obviously he has some brain farts on defense, but this is only his first year playing on the NBA level.

  16. Frank

    stratomatic:
    Marc Berman ?@NYPost_Berman 44s
    Think #Knicks not going to gamble on Mitchell-Ledo. Future is now. Hearing Glen Rice Jr. still in play

    I could be talked into liking Rice Jr.. Those were some truly ridiculous #s in the D-League. And it doesn’t look like he’s just a gunner – 3+ assists/40 isn’t bad at all.

  17. Frank

    Wow – it is sounding like this Celts/Nets deal really might happen. Crazy.

    This Nets thing has a Lakers 2012-13 feel to it. I have a feeling KG will destroy Brook Lopez. But these pieces fit together way better than the Lakers did.

    DWill, JJ, Pierce, KG, Lopez is a scary lineup.

  18. stratomatic

    Frank: I’m really not sure where this kind of analysis comes from.Is it his rebounding numbers?With him on/off court, it’s basically a wash when it comes to rebounding according to 82games.The defense is a wash with him on/off the court according to 82games.his Synergy numbers are not strong – true. Obviously he has some brain farts on defense, but this is only his first year playing on the NBA level.

    He’s essentially a PF that can’t rebound or defend on a top of a few other more minor negatives. IMO the net of it all is an EV- player for the PF position. That is the reason he was a 27 years old rookie.

    Now if you focus as much on scoring as the average fan, media guy etc.. then I could see how you would think he’s a good player and be anxious to have him back. I just weight other things more highly than the average fan.

  19. max fisher-cohen

    As for JR Smith, gonna be really hard to replicate this season if he’s gone. NY needs a ball handling scorer badly in that case, and so they need to swing for the fences in this draft. Another similar player to Ledo is Archie Goodwin. Rated as a top prospect out of HS, didn’t blow people away his freshmen year (but at least played!), has a very high upside given his athletic gifts.

    @Frank- Copeland’s synergy #s on defense put him right near the bottom, and while yes it’s true NY’s defense was actually better with Copeland on the floor, their offense was WORSE.

    Copeland only played about 900 minutes this season, so these on/off court numbers are surely skewed from the huge amount of garbage minutes he played. I’d much rather trust the synergy numbers here, which are less skewed by lineup info.

    Those synergy #s say that basically Copeland is an excellent spot up shooter and a passable post player who plays terrible defense. Pair that with his Eddy Curry level court vision and subpar rebounding, and I see a guy who’s a good deal for a minimum contract and acceptable at the $2-3m range. I see Steve Novak with a little post game but with less of a long term shooting reputation. If we didn’t already have Novak, I’d be okay with giving him the mini-MLE, but we do, and so even if Copeland is slightly better, he doesn’t address the team’s needs the way another player might.

  20. Frank

    stratomatic: He’s essentially a PF that can’t rebound or defend on a top of a few other more minor negatives. IMO the net of it all is an EV- player for the PF position. That is the reason he was a 27 years old rookie.

    Now if you focus as much on scoring as the average fan, media guy etc.. then I could see how you would think he’s a good player and be anxious to have him back.I just weight other things more highly than the average fan.

    you don’t need to get all high horse on me like you’re THCJ or something.

    But when you tell me that he’s a terrible player other than on offense — so bad that a guy with a usage of 25 and a TS of 58.5 who can spot up, post, be roll-man, and isolate isn’t worth 3M/year — you need to convince me that his defense and rebounding is really that terrible. I’ll tell you that the TEAM did not rebound worse when he was on the floor. The TEAM did not give up more points when he was on the floor. And from all accounts, his defense got better as the year went on. Tell me your model that predicts he’s an EV- player. You don’t have to give me details. Just the reasoning.

  21. Frank

    Btw stratomatic- what does your model tell you about Harden? He’s a similar player- high usage high efficiency offensive player, horrendous defensive player. Harden’s team was a net -3 points per 100 poss with him on the floor. They were a worse rebounding team with him on the floor. And that’s in spite of the fact that his backups were a bunch of D-league types.

    I’m not saying Copeland is the next coming. I just think there’s no doubt he is worth the mini-MLE. Especially if there is general agreement that Harden is a max level player.

  22. thenamestsam

    Frank:

    DWill, JJ, Pierce, KG, Lopez is a scary lineup.

    Best starting five in the league? I think they have a legit claim.

  23. Spree8nyk8

    Holy Crap man the patriots off season workouts are killer….

    Looks like they had Dexter playing tight end last year.

  24. flossy

    Ledo sure looks great crossing up 17 year-olds on teh mixtapes, but so did Josh Selby. I know it’s stupid, but there’s something about Ledo’s demeanor that I just hate (which the bad-boy rep would seem to support). He just seems so damn arrogant. He’s got that same dumb cockiness that makes JR/Carmelo hard to truly love (IMO), except it’s dripping out of every poor and he hasn’t accomplished anything yet.

    It still wouldn’t surprise me if we bought low on a Mitchell or Ledo, though if either of them really do play well next season it just complicates the rotation problems–what we actually need is a back-up PG or C.

  25. flossy

    Frank:
    Wow – it is sounding like this Celts/Nets deal really might happen. Crazy.

    This Nets thing has a Lakers 2012-13 feel to it. I have a feeling KG will destroy Brook Lopez. But these pieces fit together way better than the Lakers did.

    DWill, JJ, Pierce, KG, Lopez is a scary lineup.

    That trade would open up a wormhole of hatred across the East River. Like you actually probably couldn’t put together a better collection of good/great players with detestable personalities.

  26. Spree8nyk8

    It looks like there are a lot of teams shopping #1 picks after ours, we should pick one up and do the portland deal.

  27. BigBlueAL

    Read that the Spurs are very interested in Tony Mitchell with their pick (28th). So maybe the Knicks should draft him lol.

  28. Douglas

    Spree8nyk8:
    Holy Crap man the patriots off season workouts are killer….

    Looks like they had Dexter playing tight end last year.

    The last player to tackle Aaron Hernandez in an NFL game was…

    wait for it…

    Bernard Pollard.

    Not kidding.

  29. Spree8nyk8

    Douglas: The last player to tackle Aaron Hernandez in an NFL game was…

    wait for it…

    Bernard Pollard.

    Not kidding.

    lol, I saw something on twitter saying that the police have located a Red SUV they were looking for in connection to a double homicide the month before all of this, and that the SUV had been rented to Hernandez. They are saying that it might have been the motive for Hernandez to kill this kid. Maybe he was squeezing him for money?

  30. ruruland

    stratomatic:
    1. JR leaving this year would be addition by subtraction even though we had him on a “theoretically” good deal for last year.

    2. Copeland is monstrously overrated here. He’s an efficient and fairly versatile scorer that’s a liability in every other way for his position. He nets out to EV- player.

    3. Prigioni is one of the few players on the team besides a healthy Chandler that is both EV+ and likely to be a good value for the contract.

    4. The Knicks only hope of not being worse next year is a big leap forward by Shumpert (which is feasible) or Amare being healthy and playing a large enough role on offense to keep Melo under wraps.

    This fascinates me. So the Knicks won 54 games last year with the majority of the team being EV-?

  31. Z-man

    Nobody’s grabbing me in the late part of this draft. I guess I’d be OK with Mitchell, Caanan, Wolters, or Bullock. I don’t like Franklin (no left hand) or Ledo (punk). Hardaway Jr. is OK, Rice Jr. seems excellent on O but a zero on D. I’ll be more interested after say #20 is picked.

  32. ruruland

    Frank:
    Btw stratomatic- what does your model tell you about Harden? He’s a similar player- high usage high efficiency offensive player, horrendous defensive player. Harden’s team was a net -3 points per 100 poss with him on the floor. They were a worse rebounding team with him on the floor.And that’s in spite of the fact that his backups were a bunch of D-league types.

    I’m not saying Copeland is the next coming. I just think there’s no doubt he is worth the mini-MLE. Especially if there is general agreement that Harden is a max level player.

    Strato is full of shit. He’s never responded to any of my serious inquiries. THCJ-lite

  33. Douglas

    When will stratomatic release his much-vaunted EV metric to the public? THE PEOPLE DEMAND TRANSPARENCY. INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE.

  34. thenamestsam

    ruruland: Strato is full of shit. He’s never responded to any of my serious inquiries. THCJ-lite

    I do sometimes get the feeling that he’s under the impression that saying “Player A is EV+” is somehow way more scientifically rigorous than saying “Player A is good”.

  35. Spree8nyk8

    Never going to understand why someone needs a 5 min clock to make the first pick, you had a month to think about it.

  36. KnickfaninNJ

    The basic trouble for the Knicks is that in the NBA, teams pay for scoring, rather than defense or win shares. They often pay more than the overall value of the player by many measures. The NBA particularly oiverpays midrange players for scoring because they can’t pay young player what they are worth. The Knicks need midrange scoring to back up Melo, but have little money to spend, so they are in a bind, trade and free agency wise. I don’t know anything about any of the potential draftees, but strategy wise taking a known scorer who has possible issues might be good for them. But they have also found value others missed (like Shumpert, Prigioni, last year’s draft choice and Copeland), so I wouldn’t mind being surpisedby them either.

  37. BigBlueAL

    Love this tweet:

    Houston is trying to dump Jeremy Lin’s salary, going so far as to prioritise cap relief over young basketball assets.

  38. ruruland

    thenamestsam: I do sometimes get the feeling that he’s under the impression that saying “Player A is EV+” is somehow way more scientifically rigorous than saying “Player A is good”.

    Totally. I wouldn’t criticize him if he simply engaged in thoughtful dialogue regarding his claims.

    There are very few people who win 53 percent or more of their bets, which is the bare minimum needed to be a professional gambler.

    There are a lot of people who claim to have the secret sauce, it’s the easiest parlour trick in the book.

    Frank, what is your twitter handle?

  39. ruruland

    BigBlueAL:
    Love this tweet:

    Houston is trying to dump Jeremy Lin’s salary, going so far as to prioritise cap relief over young basketball assets.

    LMAO

  40. BigBlueAL

    Wish JVG was on tonight instead of Jalen Rose. Simmons with JVG would be great lol.

  41. thenamestsam

    Feels like picking Porter Jr. over Noel is about need and following predetermined plan, not talent. Do not like that pick at all.

  42. BigBlueAL

    On a side note, kind of nice that the Knicks are picking so late in the 1st round and its because their record warrants it.

  43. JK47

    Ben McLemore and Nerlens Noel are on the board and you take a stiff like Cody Zeller. I’m a Syracuse fan and we made that guy look like a total stiff.

  44. thenamestsam

    At least they took Zeller and not Len. Can’t believe Noel is sliding behind these guys.

  45. JK47

    Alex Len is a career backup center. This is why these shitty teams have such high draft picks.

  46. KnickfaninNJ

    It’s hard to imagine want Detroit will do if Noel is still there. They’ve got to feel the shadow of Darko

  47. DRed

    The collective GM stupidity on display tonight is amazing. Should be really interesting to watch Davis and Noel play defense together.

  48. DRed

    BigBlueAL:
    Great line someone tweeted about the Noel-Davis tandem:“The Thin Towers”

    That’s great.

    Not sure which one is the center, but I wouldn’t want to drive into the paint with those two waiting. I have no idea if it’ll work, but it’s going to be fun to see what happens.

  49. JK47

    The Pelicans’ floor spacing probably isn’t going to be that great with Davis and Noel on the floor, but it’s going to be damn near impossible to take the ball to the hole against them.

  50. ruruland

    DRed: That’s great.

    Not sure which one is the center, but I wouldn’t want to drive into the paint with those two waiting.I have no idea if it’ll work, but it’s going to be fun to see what happens.

    Shot blocking is only half of it. Like having two young KG’s on defense. Nuts. Who cares about floor spacing when you have that.

  51. JK47

    ruruland:
    So, all of a sudden Ryan Anderson and Brook Lopez are seemingly available.

    Maybe the Pelicans keep Anderson as a stretch 4. They’ll need frontcourt depth and versatility considering Noel and Davis are both injury risks.

  52. Hubert

    JK47:
    The Pelicans’ floor spacing probably isn’t going to be that great with Davis and Noel on the floor, but it’s going to be damn near impossible to take the ball to the hole against them.

    Yeah that ain’t gonna work on offense. Like watching us go w Chandler-Martin.

    And you really only need one rim protector. There is some serious diminishing returns when you add a second.

  53. DRed

    I’d actually be very interested to see a Anderson/Noel/Davis frontline. I think it could work.

  54. ess-dog

    The universe finally created an instance where the Kings literally could not fuck their pick up.

  55. Caleb

    take that back, he’s gone. But Holliday is a great #6 pick…
    Where will Bynum be playing next year? Back in LA?

  56. JK47

    Burke pretty clearly seems like the BPA, but the next four teams– DET, MIN, POR, PHI– don’t seem to need a PG. I mean, Detroit needs a PG because Brandon Knight blows, but I’m not sure if they know that.

  57. ruruland

    Caleb:
    take that back, he’s gone. But Holliday is a great #6 pick…
    Where will Bynum be playing next year? Back in LA?

    HAHA, you might have something there. madness

  58. mokers

    If you think Minnesota and Portland don’t do PGs, Burke could fall to the sixers. But if Burke falls to OKC, well fuck me.

  59. JK47

    If Philly ends up with Noel and Burke, that works out pretty well for them, even if it means giving up Jrue.

  60. Brian Cronin

    Wait, shouldn’t Holliday be worth more than that? He’s developed very nicely.

    A guy who could have been #1 and then they can get Burke. I like it for Philly. I also like it for New Orleans a lot, of course.

  61. thenamestsam

    Yeah Woj got the 1st rounder on the wrong side at first. Noel + doubling your chances at Wiggins seems like a decent bet for Philly. Resetting things makes sense form them if they’re done with the Bynum show.

  62. maxwell_3g

    I was in love what the pelicans had going and……it looks like they are trading him to philly. oh well.
    I really like the oladipo pick and the noel pick so far. I like mcclemore, but he is going to die a slow death in sac town. I would have gone Michael carter williams

  63. Hubert

    And a 2014 pick that is “lightly protected”? Whoa. They’re going to suck next year. That’s a good pick.

    Seems like a home run for NO to me. Maybe I like Holliday too much. I’m admittedly not very familiar w Noel but nothing I read indicated he was that good.

  64. Hubert

    thenamestsam:
    Yeah Woj got the 1st rounder on the wrong side at first. Noel + doubling your chances at Wiggins seems like a decent bet for Philly. Resetting things makes sense form them if they’re done with the Bynum show.

    That makes more sense.

  65. thenamestsam

    maxwell_3g:
    I was in love what the pelicans had going and……it looks like they are trading him to philly.oh well.
    I really like the oladipo pick and the noel pick so far.I like mcclemore, but he is going to die a slow death in sac town.I would have gone Michael carter williams

    Problem is if you have a bad culture it’s almost impossible to make good picks. As soon as Sac picks you your odds of making it plummet.

  66. maxwell_3g

    thenamestsam: Problem is if you have a bad culture it’s almost impossible to make good picks. As soon as Sac picks you your odds of making it plummet.

    I agree completely. I just don’t think a young sg without the best support system needs to go there. I would have gone pg there (either burke or carter-Williams)

  67. thenamestsam

    BigBlueAL:
    Good pick by the Wolves, they really need a PG…..

    BigBlueAL:
    Burke going to Portland in a trade.Good for Portland, they need a PG…..

    Haha. My reaction exactly. This cracked me up. Maybe they think Burke is more of a 2…????

  68. thenamestsam

    BigBlueAL:
    Now they are saying Utah??Makes more sense than Portland.

    Much more sense. Like that for Utah pending who they give up exactly. They like shoot first PGs. Good fir for Burke.

  69. mokers

    thenamestsam: Problem is if you have a bad culture it’s almost impossible to make good picks. As soon as Sac picks you your odds of making it plummet.

    Yea, I like Mclemore, but going to Sac is just terrible for somebody who wants to grow as a player. It’s great that they got a new stadium, but that franchise does not look like it is going very far.

  70. JK47

    If Utah keeps Favors and Kanter, I love the Burke trade for them. That’s a tremendous young core.

  71. JK47

    CJ McCollum is more of an off-ball player than Lillard, so that backcourt could sorta work. Although they’re trading McCollum I guess?

  72. Hubert

    Brian Cronin: A guy who could have been #1 and then they can get Burke. I like it for Philly. I also like it for New Orleans a lot, of course.

    Well now that we know they’re getting a 2014 lottery pick it’s a good trade for them.

  73. thenamestsam

    Hubert: Well now that we know they’re getting a 2014 lottery pick it’s a good trade for them.

    Yeah not many teams have the balls to trade down out of that crappy NBA middle class and getting Carter-Williams + Noel and then tank next year and potentially two lottery picks in a strong draft is a good start.

    Speaking of which Pelicans a shot at the 8th seed out west next year?

  74. Caleb

    Hubert: Well now that we know they’re getting a 2014 lottery pick it’s a good trade for them.

    I wouldn’t count on that being a lottery pick.

  75. johnno

    You know what strikes me about this draft? Shane Battier is much bigger than I realized.

  76. JK47

    Sorry, but Michael Carter-Williams is not gonna make it in the NBA, and I’m a Syracuse fan. He’s a turnover machine who can’t shoot. Sure, he’s a nice passer, but I watched a lot of Cuse games this year and the guy does not look like an NBA player to me. Poor pick and roll shooter, horrendous spot-up shooter… He’s a reach at #11, no question.

  77. Hubert

    That actually worked out great for Philly. They swap Jrue for MC-W and pick up Noel and they’ll have two lottery picks next year.

  78. Brian Cronin

    Well at least the Knicks dont have to defend Holliday 4 times next season.

    Ha! Totally.

  79. flossy

    BigBlueAL:
    Well at least the Knicks dont have to defend Holliday 4 times next season.

    MCW, Evan Turner and Nick Young is going to be… quite something to watch.

  80. thenamestsam

    JK47:
    Sorry, but Michael Carter-Williams is not gonna make it in the NBA, and I’m a Syracuse fan.He’s a turnover machine who can’t shoot.Sure, he’s a nice passer, but I watched a lot of Cuse games this year and the guy does not look like an NBA player to me.Poor pick and roll shooter, horrendous spot-up shooter… He’s a reach at #11, no question.

    Don’t love him either but there really aren’t sure fire guys left here. Even the semi-studs are gone. I like him better than Steven Adams, I’ll tell you that.

  81. KnickfaninNJ

    You’re counting Felton as worse than 20th in the league? I think he’s an average starter.

  82. JK47

    DRed:
    Adams is not a bad pick for OKC.Can’t be worse than Perkins.

    Yeah, just what I was thinking. They’ll use Adams to play the Perkins role. Perkins looks like he’s completely finished.

  83. jon abbey

    where is THCJ to tell us what a bargain Lin’s contract is, like he did two trillion times since last summer?

  84. jon abbey

    KnickfaninNJ:
    You’re counting Felton as worse than 20th in the league?I think he’s an average starter.

    don’t make me start listing guys, it will just make me sad.

  85. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: Someday!!

    it’s been so so so long, Mark Jackson’s early career maybe? Derek Harper for about 10 minutes? really painful to think about.

  86. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey: it’s been so so so long, Mark Jackson’s early career maybe? Derek Harper for about 10 minutes? really painful to think about.

    Marbury from 2004-2005 was easily a Top 20 PG.

  87. Hubert

    Caleb: I wouldn’t count on that being a lottery pick.

    The hornets? They have too far to climb to be a playoff team in the west next year, IMO. That would be ahead of schedule.

  88. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL: Marbury from 2004-2005 was easily a Top 20 PG.

    yeah, I guess that’s true, although he was eating Vaseline not too long after.

  89. yellowboy90

    two 2nd round picks. Come on Knicks you guys could have put that together. 2 2014 picks

  90. BigBlueAL

    Looking back at his stats during the 2004-05 season Marbury actually had a great season.

  91. mokers

    thenamestsam: Don’t love him either but there really aren’t sure fire guys left here. Even the semi-studs are gone. I like him better than Steven Adams, I’ll tell you that.

    Syracuse was really not all that great offensively for long stretches. If Carter-Williams has to do too much, he can be very turnover prone. Taking spotups, his shooting can get better and when he has a chance to take it to the rim, he is very good at finishing. Great defense as well. Not all star material, but could be a starter on an all-star team

  92. KnickfaninNJ

    jon abbey: don’t make me start listing guys, it will just make me sad.

    We had a good season by Knick standards this year, so don’t be sad.

  93. maxwell_3g

    OK, I am very confused. I understand holliday for noels. but one of these teams is giving up a 1st rounder next year, meaning one of them is being screwed. all reporters seem to reporting different things. who is getting the 1st rounder??

  94. Brian Cronin

    OK, I am very confused. I understand holliday for noels. but one of these teams is giving up a 1st rounder next year, meaning one of them is being screwed. all reporters seem to reporting different things. who is getting the 1st rounder??

    Philly is getting the 1st round pick (top three protected).

  95. BigBlueAL

    maxwell_3g:
    OK, I am very confused.I understand holliday for noels.but one of these teams is giving up a 1st rounder next year, meaning one of them is being screwed.all reporters seem to reporting different things.who is getting the 1st rounder??

    Philly is getting the Hornets 2014 1st rounder but from what Ive read it is Top 5 protected.

  96. JK47

    BigBlueAL: Philly is getting the Hornets 2014 1st rounder but from what Ive read it is Top 5 protected.

    No chance that particular pick will be Wiggins then. So that does kind of make sense.

  97. rohank

    When will the Knicks fleece teams in trades like Boston just did? (Getting a 1st round pick and 2 2nds for free??)

  98. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL:
    Looking back at his stats during the 2004-05 season Marbury actually had a great season.

    statistically, maybe. as a leader, he made the idiotic move of proclaiming himself to be the best PG in the league immediately before a Nets game. Jason Kidd promptly destroyed him, leading to a 2-16 stretch that killed NY’s season.

    so, yeah.

  99. jon abbey

    KnickfaninNJ: We had a good season by Knick standards this year, so don’t be sad.

    fuck “Knick standards”. this team went all in and may have peaked with a second round exit. I’m pissed/depressed, and don’t tell me how to feel.

  100. BigBlueAL

    rohank:
    When will the Knicks fleece teams in trades like Boston just did? (Getting a 1st round pick and 2 2nds for free??)

    They just switched picks with Dallas. Dallas now has the 16th pick.

  101. ess-dog

    I hate to say it, but I think the Wolves are making good moves here. Now if they can just trade Derrick W. for something.

  102. JK47

    What is Shabazz Muhammad supposed to be good at again? Inefficient at offense and a non-entity on defense. Did he get drafted here because he was good in high school?

  103. jon abbey

    heh, ATL just traded for #16, so they have three picks in a row now. has that ever happened before?

  104. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    heh, ATL just traded for #16, so they have three picks in a row now. has that ever happened before?

    Dallas has #18 now.

  105. maxwell_3g

    jon abbey:
    heh, ATL just traded for #16, so they have three picks in a row now. has that ever happened before?
    I doubt it. we had three almost in a row, and managed to take 3 who play the same position (Dontae Jones, John Wallace, WALTAAAA McCarty)

  106. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    oh, ATL gave up 18, so they just have 16/17. Schroeder to DAL at 18?

    If Dallas makes a draft pick it will be for a euro player who wont be coming to the NBA next season so Dallas saves cap space from what Ive read.

  107. KnickfaninNJ

    jon abbey: fuck “Knick standards”. this team went all in and may have peaked with a second round exit. I’m pissed/depressed, and don’t tell me how to feel.

    Sorry to make you mad. I agree we may have peaked and I’m not happy about it either. But I’ve been watching so long I’m happy to see the competitive with good teams in the playoffs

  108. BigBlueAL

    Z:
    Didn’t the ’96 knicks pick 3 in a row? (McCarty, Wallace, and Jones, I think?)

    I think only Wallace and McCarty were back-to-back, Jones was a few picks later if I remember correctly.

  109. ess-dog

    Wow, Nogueira is a foot taller than me and weighs five pounds less?

    I need to go on a diet.

  110. DRed

    JK47:
    What is Shabazz Muhammad supposed to be good at again?Inefficient at offense and a non-entity on defense.Did he get drafted here because he was good in high school?

    Pretty much.

  111. jon abbey

    KnickfaninNJ: Sorry to make you mad.I agree we may have peaked and I’m not happy about it either.But I’ve been watching so long I’m happy to see the competitive with good teams in the playoffs

    no worries, you didn’t make me mad. this is just a depressing night, coupled with the knowledge that Melo is letting his shoulder attempt to magically heal itself. I’m sure that will end well.

  112. JK47

    I like Schroeder’s game and I’m bummed he got picked, but he would have been buried at the end of Woody’s bench.

  113. Brian Cronin

    coupled with the knowledge that Melo is letting his shoulder attempt to magically heal itself.

    Seriously, I mentioned this this morning, as well. What is the benefit of just hoping that it heals? It doesn’t seem to make sense to me. Yeah, having surgery sucks, but it is better to have certainty than not, right?

  114. Z

    BigBlueAL: I think only Wallace and McCarty were back-to-back, Jones was a few picks later if I remember correctly.

    Ah yes, google proves you correct. Zadrunis Ilygauskis (sp?) was chosen in there between Wallace and the great Dante Jones (more depressing Knick draft history to be reminded about!)

  115. jon abbey

    just an early warning: if we draft Plumlee, I am picking someone else to root for next year. this is not based on anything more than my dislike for white American players, especially big guys.

  116. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: Seriously, I mentioned this this morning, as well. What is the benefit of just hoping that it heals? It doesn’t seem to make sense to me. Yeah, having surgery sucks, but it is better to have certainty than not, right?

    inmates (and CAA) running the asylum.

  117. maxwell_3g

    jon abbey:
    just an early warning: if we draft Plumlee, I am picking someone else to root for next year. this is not based on anything more than my dislike for white American players, especially big guys.

    agreed completely

  118. ess-dog

    jon abbey:
    just an early warning: if we draft Plumlee, I am picking someone else to root for next year. this is not based on anything more than my dislike for white American players, especially big guys.

    His f’n face really annoys me, and I hate Duke, but the guy is actually a sick athlete.

  119. jon abbey

    now I guess I am rooting for Dieng. never a quality PG, still can’t believe Walsh fucked up 2009 like that…

  120. maxwell_3g

    seriously, wtf are the lawks doing??? if there is not a trade is the works, this is just stupid

  121. DRed

    I had no idea that Shane was Barry Larkin’s kid. And I watched like 6 or 7 Miami games last year.

  122. ruruland

    Brian Cronin: Seriously, I mentioned this this morning, as well. What is the benefit of just hoping that it heals? It doesn’t seem to make sense to me. Yeah, having surgery sucks, but it is better to have certainty than not, right?

    those surgeries don’t always go well. It’s not the rehab people worry about or the hassle of the procedure, it’s the risks of the procedure.

  123. jon abbey

    this Nets/Celtics trade is going to cost us the division. you guys all know that, presumably? (except for ruru, of course)

  124. maxwell_3g

    bulls may take deng here, basically because he was made to be a bull playing for thibs. I hope that does not happen, because I think I would prefer him at this point

  125. maxwell_3g

    jon abbey:
    this Nets/Celtics trade is going to cost us the division. you guys all know that, presumably? (except for ruru, of course)

    not convinced. they will be very long in the tooth. joe Johnson blows. d will is slipping. kg and pierce are old. lopez is replacing screws in his foot. not sold on them

  126. Frank

    Heck I’d even take Mitchell. Just give me someone who has an elite skill and a plus skill or great upside. Not someone who everything sorta ok like hardaway.

    Not sure why I don’t like him. Just be left over from his dad.

  127. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    this Nets/Celtics trade is going to cost us the division. you guys all know that, presumably? (except for ruru, of course)

    I dont know that.

  128. jon abbey

    you know the Nets are going to take Dieng, like half their raison d’etre is to fuck with us.

  129. Brian Cronin

    Heck I’d even take Mitchell. Just give me someone who has an elite skill and a plus skill or great upside. Not someone who everything sorta ok like hardaway.

    Pretty much. Just get a guy with an elite skill.

  130. ruruland

    jon abbey:
    this Nets/Celtics trade is going to cost us the division. you guys all know that, presumably? (except for ruru, of course)

    Yeah, they really look like a team that’s going to push for a lot of regular season wins. Great depth, too.

  131. Hubert

    jon abbey:
    this Nets/Celtics trade is going to cost us the division. you guys all know that, presumably? (except for ruru, of course)

    I don’t think it will work out. Will look better on paper.

  132. BigBlueAL

    ruruland: Yeah, they really look like a team that’s going to push for a lot of regular season wins. Great depth, too.

    Not to mention they have a veteran head coach…

  133. bidiong

    jon abbey:
    you know the Nets are going to take Dieng, like half their raison d’etre is to fuck with us.

    That’s why the Nets will never be better than us. Their owner is obsessed with beating us so he’ll never make the right decisions. Jason Kidd as coach. Really? He might be an all time great but did that immediately translate to great coach? No.

  134. JK47

    DAMN YOU UTAH

    Well, now there’s nobody left on the board I really want. I guess Allen Crabbe would be my top choice at this point.

  135. Frank

    Nets take Plumlee!! That leaves us with one of Bullock or Franklin. C’mon Glenn don’t overthink it.

  136. JK47

    Is there any way salary-cap wise to draft a foreign player like Gobert, then send him to Houston for Thomas Robinson? Granted he sucked major ass as a rookie but he probably has more upside than most of the guys still on the board.

  137. BigBlueAL

    Frank:
    Nets take Plumlee!! That leaves us with one of Bullock or Franklin. C’mon Glenn don’t overthink it.

    Crabbe would be a nice pick too.

  138. jon abbey

    dunno how you can talk about the Nets depth yet, they did a great job last year picking up guys cheaply (Blatche, Watson, Evans).

  139. Unreason

    jon abbey:
    this Nets/Celtics trade is going to cost us the division. you guys all know that, presumably? (except for ruru, of course)

    JKidd could be our savior there. But even with solid coaching, lots could go wrong beyond age, injury, and egos to keep them middling IMO. Besides it’s a convenient way to package up the fading hatred from a diminished Celtics roster and efficiently channel it into a new object of unbridled scorn.

  140. Frank

    JK47:
    Is there any way salary-cap wise to draft a foreign player like Gobert, then send him to Houston for Thomas Robinson?Granted he sucked major ass as a rookie but he probably has more upside than most of the guys still on the board.

    Don’t think so. In order to trade him he has to have a contract. Which means he’s not being stashed.

  141. BigBlueAL

    Pacers taking Solomon Hill, so every decent wing player left will be available for the Knicks.

  142. Frank

    Wow twitter reporting Indy is taking Solomon Hill. C’mon GG take your pick of Franklin or Bullock!!!

  143. rohank

    Wow Jalen rose just said: “For the Nets, it’s not about now, it’s RIGHT now.” WTF does that mean?? What is wrong with him?

  144. Frank

    Ok going dark now. Not even checking twitter. Want to see it happen live. Good luck all.

  145. ruruland

    Franklin is a tease, IMO. But he’d probably fit better in NY than most places. The small chance he develops an offensive game, obviously that’s amazing. I just don’t like his short range quickness or first step, and he’ll need those things to be somewhat productive in the interim.

  146. Z

    JK47:
    Is there any way salary-cap wise to draft a foreign player like Gobert, then send him to Houston for Thomas Robinson?Granted he sucked major ass as a rookie but he probably has more upside than most of the guys still on the board.

    Theoretically, yes, if the Knicks package James White or another contract to make the salary match up.

  147. Brian Cronin

    Someone talk me into liking this pick please.

    If JR is, indeed, leaving, then the Knicks have to replace some shooting. But…yeah…whatever.

  148. JK47

    This is probably the worst pick in the entire draft so far, and I’m not even kidding. Maybe Cody Zeller at #4 was worse.

  149. Hubert

    Can we chant “your dad sucked” when he goes to the line?

    And fucking Simmons spewing that fucking untradeable shit on Amar’e again. Shut the fuck up, clown. I hope we trade Amar’e just to spite him.

  150. chrisk06811

    The pick means that we don’t have to panic and give JR too many years. I’d rather lose JR than over-commit to keep him….you know that’s what is going to happen. It only takes 1 other team to big up his deal.

  151. lavor postell

    ess-dog:
    Someone talk me into liking this pick please.

    Uhh I’m a Michigan fan and I don’t particularly like this pick at all. What I will say is that his efficiency definitely took a hit as a primary on ball shot creator for Michigan, especially his sophomore and junior seasons. Maybe the logic is that if he plays off the ball he can focus on hitting assisted corner and wing 3′s with limited shot creating responsibilities. He does have a penchant for stupid heat check pull ups, which will be fewer playing with Melo and STAT.

    Defensively I think Hardaway Jr is actually pretty underrated. He’s definitely going to help us against all the teams that essentially play with 3 swingmen. Definitely not a huge fan of this pick with Mitchell on the board. I really can’t fathom why we would not look to move into the early second round at this point and hopefully grab Wolters. No doubt teams will sell those picks for cash no questions asked.

  152. ruruland

    well, about the most conservative pick you could make there. Can’t envision scenario where he could ever develop into top 10 NBA pg. He won’t be horrible either. But I think Prigs is coming back and Cope and Jr are gone. That’s what i don’t understand here.

  153. Brian Cronin

    The pick means that we don’t have to panic and give JR too many years. I’d rather lose JR than over-commit to keep him….you know that’s what is going to happen. It only takes 1 other team to big up his deal.

    The Knicks can’t pay him more than the MLE, so other teams cannot big up his deal (well, I mean, they can sign him away, of course, but they can’t affect his Knicks’ contract. He’s getting a $5 million offer no matter what).

  154. massive

    But why Tim Hardaway Jr? Of all players, we go with the 3rd best player on his collegiate team? His ceiling is Danny Green. Big whoop.

  155. ess-dog

    JK47:
    This is probably the worst pick in the entire draft so far, and I’m not even kidding.Maybe Cody Zeller at #4 was worse.

    Nah, Roberson and Hill are much worse picks.

  156. Z

    Knicks playing to the crowd. A player who played in the NCAA; a player with a name Knick fans are sure to recognize.

  157. lavor postell

    Oh and one last note on Hardaway is that he will fit in perfectly to our switch at all costs defense. Michigan switched a lot, especially when they went small to great success this past season. That being said it’s a lot easier to switch on to unathletic 4′s in the Big Ten and whole other thing to perform the task at the NBA level.

  158. ess-dog

    Apparently, TH2 has been shooting the lights out in workouts. At least he can shoot threes perhaps? And his D sounds promising despite his short wingspan.

  159. Spree8nyk8

    Hubert:
    Can we trade him for the Greek guy we gave away to Portland last year now?

    This is my hope…..probably my only hope

  160. johnno

    ess-dog: Someone talk me into liking this pick please.

    Most of the mock drafts had him going in the late teens or early 20′s, so he must have something going for him. Sorry, that’s the best I could come up with. It could have been worse — they could have picked Roberson. Draftexpress didn’t even have him getting drafted at all.

  161. Brian Cronin

    well, about the most conservative pick you could make there. Can’t envision scenario where he could ever develop into top 10 NBA pg. He won’t be horrible either. But I think Prigs is coming back and Cope and Jr are gone. That’s what i don’t understand here.

    Question – why is JR leaving?

  162. ruruland

    ess-dog:
    Apparently, TH2 has been shooting the lights out in workouts. At least he can shoot threes perhaps? And his D sounds promising despite his short wingspan.

    Good spot-up shooter. Just a middling athlete, undersized, without much in way of offensive skills.

  163. d-mar

    C’mon guys, let’s not go through the usual suicidal panic over a draft pick in the mid 20′s. We all know it’s one big crapshoot at this point in the draft, Franklin may suck, Hardaway, Jr. may develop into a decent player, who the hell knows? Was anyone (except Z-man of course) celebrating the Shumpert pick last year?

    And Simmons is a complete fucking tool “Knicks are too old, old guys only look good in November” I guess he’s just in a foul mood because his beloved team is being dismantled before his eyes.

  164. Tony Pena

    I loved the Shumpert pick. A few people did I remember. Not that I know anything more about college ball than what’s on draftexpress and espn.

  165. massive

    d-mar:
    C’mon guys, let’s not go through the usual suicidal panic over a draft pick in the mid 20?s. We all know it’s one big crapshoot at this point in the draft, Franklin may suck, Hardaway, Jr. may develop into a decent player, who the hell knows? Was anyone (except Z-man of course) celebrating the Shumpert pick last year?

    And Simmons is a complete fucking tool “Knicks are too old, old guys only look good in November” I guess he’s just in a foul mood because his beloved team is being dismantled before his eyes.

    Did you see how the guy with the touch board put Melo and Amar’e on the same side of the court and then went to say “there’s no space for those two on the floor” when I’m almost certain both players are:

    1) more than comfortable playing on the left side of the court. In fact, Amar’e played on that side a lot this season (to my memory)

    2) capable of running a two man game if they’re on the same side of the court together.

    ESPN really is a foolish website.

  166. DRed

    d-mar:
    C’mon guys, let’s not go through the usual suicidal panic over a draft pick in the mid 20?s. We all know it’s one big crapshoot at this point in the draft, Franklin may suck, Hardaway, Jr. may develop into a decent player, who the hell knows? Was anyone (except Z-man of course) celebrating the Shumpert pick last year?

    And Simmons is a complete fucking tool “Knicks are too old, old guys only look good in November” I guess he’s just in a foul mood because his beloved team is being dismantled before his eyes.

    Drafting mediocre college players isn’t a crap shoot. It’s a way to get crappy pro players. Sure, it’s possible Hardaway becomes a much better player in the NBA than he showed in 3 years of college, but it’s really unlikely. It’s a waste of a pick.

  167. mokers

    I really hope this pick was for Portland. Like somebody said, there were several players out there that had at least one elite skill and the knicks picked somebody that doesn’t have one. Ugh.

  168. ruruland

    yeah, the mechanics of his jumper are good, range is awesome and he shot 45 % off the dribble last year, which is great.

    I guess I’m trying to figure out why his overall shooting numbers are so average.

  169. lavor postell

    ruruland:
    yeah, the mechanics of his jumper are good, range is awesome and he shot 45 % off the dribble last year, which is great.

    I guess I’m trying to figure out why his overall shooting numbers are so average.

    My guess would be his iso numbers blow ass

  170. d-mar

    DRed: Drafting mediocre college players isn’t a crap shoot.It’s a way to get crappy pro players.Sure, it’s possible Hardaway becomes a much better player in the NBA than he showed in 3 years of college, but it’s really unlikely.It’s a waste of a pick.

    Last years picks 20-30 – Evan Fournier, Jared Sullinger, Fab Melo, John Jenkins, Jared Cunningham, Tony Wroten, Miles Plumlee, Arnett Moultrie, Perry Jones III, Marquis Teague, Festus Ezeli.

    You tell me which of those will pan out as NBA players and which of those were a “waste of a pick”? Right, we have no idea.

  171. DRed

    ruruland:
    yeah, the mechanics of his jumper are good, range is awesome and he shot 45 % off the dribble last year, which is great.

    I guess I’m trying to figure out why his overall shooting numbers are so average.

    Did you watch JR Smith last season?

  172. ruruland

    14 percent of his shots came at the rim, which ranked last among top 100 shooting guards in draft Express database.

  173. Brian Cronin

    Memphis trading Darrell Arthur and 55th pick to Denver for Kosta Koufos.

    Interesting trade.

    Also, KG approved the deal to Brooklyn. Yuck.

  174. ruruland

    DRed: Did you watch JR Smith last season?

    You’re right. Streaky 3-point shooter. JR should be a lot better, too. His spot-up % was down last season.

  175. Frank

    I know they had no way of knowing this trade was going to happen, but I can’t believe this Jason Kidd is the coach of this team. He may be 50 already but he will be in way over his head.

  176. Brian Cronin

    How funny was the crowd celebrating the pick just because they’re dumb and happened to recognize his name?

  177. jon abbey

    Nets are the team to beat in the division, assuming they add a bench player or two. D-Will, Johnson, Pierce, Garnett, Lopez, plus Terry/Marshon Brooks off the bench.

  178. Frank

    It’s also hard to believe Boston couldn’t have gotten more in 2 separate deals for Pierce and Garnett without having to take on Wallace.

  179. d-mar

    Frank:
    I know they had no way of knowing this trade was going to happen, but I can’t believe this Jason Kidd is the coach of this team. He may be 50 already but he will be in way over his head.

    I just have a feeling this is going to be one of those “looks good on paper, not so good in games” teams. But the media will salivate over them like a dog over a piece of steak, and will also bury the Knicks at the same time.

  180. BigBlueAL

    Frank:
    It’s also hard to believe Boston couldn’t have gotten more in 2 separate deals for Pierce and Garnett without having to take on Wallace.

    Problem is KG wasnt going to approve a trade unless Pierce was a part of it. Once the NBA didnt allow them to trade with Clippers their options were limited.

  181. Spree8nyk8

    mokers:
    I really hope this pick was for Portland. Like somebody said, there were several players out there that had at least one elite skill and the knicks picked somebody that doesn’t have one. Ugh.

    Portland just traded their second round pick, which makes me think that we don’t have a deal with them.

  182. BigBlueAL

    d-mar: I just have a feeling this is going to be one of those “looks good on paper, not so good in games” teams. But the media will salivate over them like a dog over a piece of steak, and will also bury the Knicks at the same time.

    Oh yeah, every pre-season prognostication now will have the Knicks 5th behind Miami-Chicago-BK-Indiana. But again last season over 40 ESPN “experts” all picked someone other than the Knicks to win the division so screw them.

  183. Loathing

    Just got home from work and found out the WONDERFUL news. Really? Allen Crabbe woulda been a better fit at JR’s position as a draft replacement. I understand why they didn’t grab Mitchell, but seriously? They’re gonna replace one JR with another?

  184. jon abbey

    also, am I the only one who would seriously consider taking Kidd over Woodson as a coach right now?

  185. DRed

    d-mar: Last years picks 20-30 –Evan Fournier, Jared Sullinger, Fab Melo, John Jenkins, Jared Cunningham, Tony Wroten, Miles Plumlee, Arnett Moultrie, Perry Jones III, Marquis Teague, Festus Ezeli.

    You tell me which of those will pan out as NBA players and which of those were a “waste of a pick”? Right, we have no idea.

    Drafting someone who played 3 years in college and was never very good is a terrible idea no matter when you’re drafting. If you’re late in the first round you can go in a few directions. You could take a guy who is a headcase, or a guy like Sullinger who was productive but had injury issues. You can take a young foreign player to develop. You can take a guy who probably came out too early. Take a great athlete without much basketball experience. You can take a low ceiling guy with a few skills you’re fairly confident will transfer. They all have risk, but they’re defensible strategies. Taking a guy with an established track record of mediocrity makes no sense at all. Tim Hardaway Jr. played a lot in college, at a high l

  186. lavor postell

    jon abbey:
    Nets are the team to beat in the division, assuming they add a bench player or two. D-Will, Johnson, Pierce, Garnett, Lopez, plus Terry/Marshon Brooks off the bench.

    Right but this is short termism at its best. The Nets basically have a two year window like the Knicks until 2015 when Garnett and Pierce’s deal expire except they’ll still be over the cap with max contracts being paid our to Deron, JJ and Brook Lopez. I doubt Garnett and Pierce can recoup much in trade at this point and I doubt Brooklyn will want to trade them. This might make them the team to beat in the division but winning a title would be quite an accomplishment with that roster and Kidd trying to manage all those egos. We’ll see I’m not going to lose much sleep over it.

  187. BigBlueAL

    maxwell_3g:
    guys, we should all be thrilled.the nets roster is older than our’s now

    But nobody will bring it up. Knicks were ripped for being old last season despite the fact they were all old bench players. Nets have to heavily rely on KG and Pierce but age wont be a factor for them Im sure…

  188. DRed

    To finish my thought, he played a lot of high level college ball and was never very good. What makes you think he’s a good bet to be a good NBA player?

  189. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    also, am I the only one who would seriously consider taking Kidd over Woodson as a coach right now?

    Im not a Woodson fan at all but Id much rather have a coach who has at least coached a couple of 50+ win teams and has taken 3 teams to the 2nd round compared to a rookie coach no matter how great a player Kidd was.

  190. jon abbey

    lavor postell: Right but this is short termism at its best.The Nets basically have a two year window like the Knicks until 2015 when Garnett and Pierce’s deal expire except they’ll still be over the cap with max contracts being paid our to Deron, JJ and Brook Lopez.I doubt Garnett and Pierce can recoup much in trade at this point and I doubt Brooklyn will want to trade them.This might make them the team to beat in the division but winning a title would be quite an accomplishment with that roster and Kidd trying to manage all those egos.We’ll see I’m not going to lose much sleep over it.

    they were in go for it now mode as soon as they traded for Joe Johnson last year, Pierce and Garnett is an impressive upgrade from Wallace and Humphries/Evans (!!!!).

  191. Frank

    One can only hope that with less responsibility for shot creation Hardaway’s efficiency will go up. Like Shumpert.

    Grunwald just confirmed that need was a big part of the pick- we only literally have 2 guards under contract this coming year. Makes me feel like Copeland is gone, will prob want to use that for another guard.

  192. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL: Im not a Woodson fan at all but Id much rather have a coach who has at least coached a couple of 50+ win teams and has taken 3 teams to the 2nd round compared to a rookie coach no matter how great a player Kidd was.

    yeah, he’s good in the regular season but he’s a proven shitty playoff coach, year after year. Kidd at least is unknown.

  193. Z-man

    Not worried about the Nets, Garnett and Pierce are over the hill and I’m not a big fan of Williams or Johnson. They are an injury-prone team with no bench. Mark my words, they will break down, just like we did this year.

  194. BigBlueAL

    Loathing:
    Any word if Grunwald’s gonna buy a second at all?

    According to the Knick beat writers who talked to him tonight he apparently tried to but couldnt acquire a 2nd rd pick.

  195. lavor postell

    jon abbey: they were in go for it now mode as soon as they traded for Joe Johnson last year, Pierce and Garnett is an impressive upgrade from Wallace and Humphries/Evans (!!!!).

    What do you think those 2016 and 2018 picks are going to be as these guys continue to get older. I have a hard time imagining Brooklyn really being an elite team even with Pierce and KG in the fold. Not to say the Knicks are any closer because we definitely are not, but they are the one team in the NBA we definitely have a better cap situation than.

  196. Frank

    Reading a little more about THJr- sounds like he killed at the combine and in workouts. Shot the best from NBA 3 there- 19/25.

  197. massive

    ruruland:
    yeah, the mechanics of his jumper are good, range is awesome and he shot 45 % off the dribble last year, which is great.

    I guess I’m trying to figure out why his overall shooting numbers are so average.

    His free throw percentage, which I anticipate to be in the high 80s as a pro, was 69.4% his junior season. That has to be why.

  198. massive

    I still think we’re better than the Nets, btw. Johnson/Pierce are the same player, and the younger between the two is:

    1) 32 years old on Saturday.
    2) The worse version of the two.

    The East has 5 potential 50 winners, though. Has the Eastern Conference ever been this top heavy?

  199. massive

    Tim Hardaway Jr’s NBA ceiling is Danny Green + the ability to put the ball on the floor. That’s a useful player, I guess.

    I’ll be trying to talk myself into this guy all summer.

  200. Brian Cronin

    The more I hear about this shoulder shit the more irked I get. Now Grunwald is saying that there is a chance that Melo will need surgery later. Just get the fucking surgery already!! I don’t want another season squandered over poorly handled injuries.

  201. DRed

    Brian Cronin:
    The more I hear about this shoulder shit the more irked I get. Now Grunwald is saying that there is a chance that Melo will need surgery later. Just get the fucking surgery already!! I don’t want another season squandered over poorly handled injuries.

    This has Carmelo Teixiera written all over it.

  202. Brian Cronin

    This has Carmelo Teixiera written all over it.

    Egg-fucking-zactly.

    And even there, though, the surgery meant that Teix would miss the whole season so it didn’t really matter to wait on it. Here, Melo will not miss the season if he gets the surgery now, but would miss time if he has to get it much later, so just get it now!!

  203. BigBlueAL

    massive:
    I still think we’re better than the Nets, btw. Johnson/Pierce are the same player, and the younger between the two is:

    1) 32 years old on Saturday.
    2) The worse version of the two.

    The East has 5 potential 50 winners, though. Has the Eastern Conference ever been this top heavy?

    In the 1996-97 season the Knicks won 57 games and finished 3rd in the East and played the 6th seed Hornets in the 1st round who won 54 games!! 6 teams in the East won 54 or more games that season. Hell the 8th seed Bullets won 44 games, even the 9th place Cavs were over .500 with 42 wins.

  204. BigBlueAL

    Someone on Twitter made a good point, Kidd talked about wanting the Nets to run more and play at a faster pace. Good luck with that now lol.

  205. Z

    BigBlueAL:
    Someone on Twitter made a good point, Kidd talked about wanting the Nets to run more and play at a faster pace.Good luck with that now lol.

    He wanted to run with Gerald Wallace, but I’m sure he’ll happily walk with Pierce and KG.

  206. massive

    BigBlueAL: In the 1996-97 season the Knicks won 57 games and finished 3rd in the East and played the 6th seed Hornets in the 1st round who won 54 games!!6 teams in the East won 54 or more games that season.Hell the 8th seed Bullets won 44 games, even the 9th place Cavs were over .500 with 42 wins.

    Thanks a lot. I was born in the early 90s, So I wouldn’t remember that at all.

  207. Robtachi

    Can someone with a better CBA understanding than I explain how the Nets can even afford to fit this roster in their cap? Is Prokhorov just willing to pay 7 billion dollars in luxury tax this year?

  208. lavor postell

    Robtachi:
    Can someone with a better CBA understanding than I explain how the Nets can even afford to fit this roster in their cap? Is Prokhorov just willing to pay 7 billion dollars in luxury tax this year?

    Also can somebody elaborate on the repeater tax that apparently will be levied after next season. The Nets literally are going to have their first round pick in 2015 and the mini mid-level until 2016 to upgrade this roster. Also controlling the shot distribution of that starting 5 is going to be an unenviale job. The most annoying thing about this trade will be having to deal with Garnett’s presence in New York for the next 2 years. The amount of times we’ll hear about their veteran savvy, grit, heart and championship experience is going to get real fucking nauseating.

  209. Brian Cronin

    The Nets will be paying roughly $80 million in luxury tax next year due to this trade.

  210. KnickfaninNJ

    Actually to me the Nets are starting to look like this last years Lakers. High profile coach, expensive but older talent.

  211. Brian Cronin

    Really? I dunno, they sure seem to fit together a whole lot better than the Lakers ever did. Lopez allows KG to rest during the regular season, plus KG doesn’t have to worry about getting points. He can be out there for defense and rebounding only. Lopez doesn’t have to worry as much about his poor defense. D-Will doesn’t have to score as much. It seems like a really good fit for all involved. Yes, the age issues are obviously there, but with a team that deep, they likely don’t have to play the older players as much minutes.

  212. KnickfaninNJ

    You make good points. The fit is clearly better on the Nets. Maybe I am just reacting to what I expect to be a similar level of hype for the two teams

  213. jon abbey

    the Nets need to get some bench guys and they obviously have no money to do it with, but that starting five is scary. they weren’t much behind us last year (2-2 season series, 4 seed as opposed to the 2 seed), and they replaced Wallace and Humphries/Evans with Pierce and Garnett. that is a massive fucking upgrade, assuming they are healthy of course.

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