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Wednesday, November 26, 2014

The Quincy Acy Trade: A Knicksplainer

That’s right. We’re calling it the Quincy Acy trade. Y’all got a problem with that? I didn’t think so. In any case, if you haven’t heard, the Knicks made a trade yesterday. To recap:

Knicks get: Travis Outlaw, Quincy Acy

Kings get: Jeremy Tyler, Wayne Ellington, protections removed from Knicks 2016 second-round pick

All caught up? Good. Let’s break this down.

The good: Recent reports had the Knicks entertaining the idea of packaging Pablo Prigioni in a deal with Ellington, so hopefully this trade means Prigs is here for the long run. And by long run, I mean forever.

A lot of the immediate reaction to this trade was focused on the alleged second-round pick the Knicks were giving up, but it was later clarified that said pick already belonged to Sacramento. The pick’s protection – picks 31-37 – was dropped with this trade, but the Knicks would have to finish with the seventh-worst record (or worse) in the 2015-16 season to actually keep the selection, so it’s a cosmetic change at the worst. We can argue about whether the Knicks should have received a pick, considering they are taking on salary, but before we go there…

…As fot the players actually involved, Outlaw is an 11-year veteran of the league that is of little use at this point. His PER last year was a 10.4 and he’s turning 30 in a month’s time, but if you’re desperate for a positive slant, he can help in the “veteran experience/leadership/guidance/knows where to find a decent meal in Minneapolis after most of the restaurants have closed” department

Acy was a second-round draft pick in 2012, averaging just shy of 13 minutes a night in 92 career game over two seasons. Acy played for Toronto for about a year and a half before being dealt to the Sacramento Kings. For a better take on his game, we turn the program over to Sam Holako of RaptorsRepublic and Greg Wissinger of SactownRoyalty:

Holako

So the good news for the Knicks is that they didn’t give up a lot (anything?) to get him and Outlaw. The bad news is that depending on how you classify him, he’s either an undersized power forward or a small forward…who isn’t…there’s really no other explanation.

At his core, he is a hustle player who has a nose for rebounding and a great locker room dude, but when I think of his season-plus in Toronto, the first few thoughts in my head were of his antics (cheerleaderNRA spokespersondolphins) than of his performance (blocking Dwight Howard at the rimlegendary preseason game).

I really wish I had more for you, but aside from doing fairly well when given meaningless minutes late in a lost season, he didn’t show me enough to make me think he would have a long career in the league…good guy though!”

Wissinger:

Acy is a huge value relative to his contract, and should be a fan favorite with the Knicks.  Acy is a hard worker above all else. He’s always going to be ready when his number is called, and will always put forth effort on the court.  He’s a pesky defender, and will have some emphatic, crowd-pleasing blocks.  He’s a solid rebounder.  And he can actually shoot a lot better than you’d think.  The beard makes you think he’d be another Reggie Evans, but Acy can hit a mid-range jumper with some reliability.

He’s unlikely to ever make the leap and become a star, or even an above average starter, but he’s a fantastic guy to have coming off this bench.  And he’s still young.  I think Knicks fans will be really happy with Acy this season.

Acy, above all else, is going to be one of the more likable players on the Knicks roster.

The bad: There’s not a whole lot “bad” here, but a couple of questions certainly come to mind. First off, why did the Knicks so badly want to deal Ellington? He’s a smart player that can knock down the three and is familiar with the triangle. The Knicks were by no means clogged at the two guard spot. It’s now down to just Shumpert/Smith and Hardaway Jr. Trading Ellington – whose contract is expiring at the end of this season – just seemed far from a necessity but was treated as such anyway.

Secondly, what does this mean for Early and Thanasis Antetokounmpo? Acy’s a young player too, but an argument can be made that both Early and Antetokounmpo have higher upsides. Sure, the latter was likely going to be stashed overseas anyway, but I was excited to see Early get some burn this season. Instead, it looks like he’ll be battling it out for third string minutes.

Giving Travis Outlaw minutes over any young player in a year in which you won’t be competing for a championship is nonsensical. (Hell, you might be better off playing a half-blind pygmy marmoset over Outlaw even if you were competing.) Let’s hope this isn’t the case.

The ugly: We almost lost Pablo Prigioni.

Final verdict: Nothing here moves the needle much, really. Cap space for 2015 is unaffected, the roster balances out a bit and the Knicks didn’t cause any significant self harm. I guess we can call that a victory.

 

134 comments on “The Quincy Acy Trade: A Knicksplainer

  1. damaddgenius

    More than one point in this article makes no sense. We’re not clogged at 2 guard? Would you rather they traded young assets Hardaway or Shumpert?? Or were you going to conjure up a JR trade that didn’t take back a bad contract? Oh! I know, you imagined a world where some how we’d play all 3 of those guys, the current minutes leader and team star, 2 respectable point guards, get amare the minutes he clearly demonstrated he needs to be productive, and still fit Ellington in?? Last I checked that wasn’t possible. And oh yeah, how about we not give up on competing this year 2 months before the season starts. Leave that garbage to Philly.

  2. DRed

    We traded two guys who aren’t that good and were probably not going to play for a guy who sucks but will be gone next year, and a lively young player who might actually be good. Good deal by us.

  3. David Vertsberger Post author

    Mr. Genius,
    I never suggested trading THJ or Shump. I just said the two isn’t clogged. Either Shump or JR can play the three and play it well. As for giving up on competing… Do you see this roster?

  4. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, Love is probably the best teammate Lebron has ever had (peak Wade is better, but Lebron didn’t have peak Wade – I guess that first year in Miami was close, though). Which is just insane to think of.

  5. SirJim

    We’re not logjammed at 2 guard? That’s all I ever hear, is that we have 3 competent starters (Shump, JR, and THJ, in that order) and we don’t know how each of them is going to get minutes.

    Someone clarify? I confuse.

  6. Brian Cronin

    They’re only logjammed if Melo is a 3. If he is, then yeah, they have a problem. If he isn’t, then they’re fine, as Shump and JR can both play the 3 (Shump more so than JR).

  7. DRed

    I mean, in a pinch you could push Calderon or Pablo to the 2 as well.

    What I’m saying is that Wayne Ellington is a perfectly decent player, but if we miss him this season then things have gone very, very wrong.

  8. chrismcnealy

    I love this site and am a first-time poster. No question PJ will inevitably make some mistakes but I wanted to come in since there have been a few who have questioned his decision-making recently. Looking at his wheeling and dealing so far, this is what the Knicks have come away with when you net everything out…

    Given Up:
    Chandler
    Felton
    Tyler

    Received:
    Calderon
    Larkin
    Cleanthony
    Dalembert
    Acy
    Thanasis
    Outlaw

    Seriously, is there anyone out there who wouldn’t do this exchange all day long?

  9. GoNyGoNYGo

    @4 DRed +1

    As for the 2, I consider Shump, JR and THJ all 2’s except we used to call that position the shooting guard and Shump can’t shoot.

    Melo is a small forward even though he’s played power forward. We really don’t have the traditional a power forward. That’s the guy who gets into brawls, crashes the board and crushes little dudes. I’m talking Oakley types. Acy is an undersized version of that. That’s why the trade was good. Ellington was never going to see the court in NY and Tyler was a foul-machine.

    Love to the Cavs for 3 first round picks and he’s sign up for a 5-yr $120M contract??? Jeeze, we thought Melo was overrated. It does mean that the Cavs are going to be tough to beat.

  10. bidiong

    I love this site and am a first-time poster. No question PJ will inevitably make some mistakes but I wanted to come in since there have been a few who have questioned his decision-making recently. Looking at his wheeling and dealing so far, this is what the Knicks have come away with when you net everything out…

    Given Up:
    Chandler
    Felton
    Tyler

    Received:
    Calderon
    Larkin
    Cleanthony
    Dalembert
    Acy
    Thanasis
    Outlaw

    Seriously, is there anyone out there who wouldn’t do this exchange all day long?

    Good point…

  11. SirJim

    @Brian That makes sense. My thought process on the triangle offense is sketchy at best, but from what it sounds like, Melo will be at the 3 to make room for either Bargs or Outlaw at the 4. I don’t agree with it, but I definitely see how that might work.

    @GoNY Yeah, Shump really hasn’t developed a consistent outside shot. I was looking for him to refine that last year, but it seemed like they gave him a lot of other things to work on (ball handling, why?) and his shot deteriorated. Almost looked confused about what weapons to use out there.

    Hopefully D-Fish and Phil will continue to make the changes they need. There’s no way this team was actually as bad as they played last year.

  12. Brian Cronin

    Love to the Cavs for 3 first round picks and he’s sign up for a 5-yr $120M contract??? Jeeze, we thought Melo was overrated.

    Whether you feel Love is better than Melo or not (he is, but whatever, it’s not that important to this point), he’s five years younger than Melo, so their deals really aren’t comparable.

  13. Keniman Shumpwalker

    Melo will be at the 3 to make room for either Bargs or Outlaw at the 4

    Doubtful that we’re doing anything to “make room” for Outlaw. He’s simply depth (and shitty depth, at that). The traditional positional designations aren’t that important in the triangle. Melo will get the ball in different spots but expect to see a lot of him at the elbow or on the low block.

    On another note, does anybody know how many limbs I would need to sacrifice to see zero minutes for Andrea Bargnani in 2014-15? Less than zero, even? I’m fine with being a stump for the rest of my time on this plane of existence if the end result is Bargnani No Knick.

  14. Brian Cronin

    The Bargs thing is weird since all the beat writers following the Knicks are talking about this upcoming season as if Bargs is going to be a big part of the rotation. I hope that that is just their own personal views as to what will happen. Come on, Phil, don’t let us down!

  15. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    I would rather the Knicks play 5-on-4 than see Bargnani out there.

  16. EB

    I have no idea why you believed we didn’t have a glut at SG. Ellington probably comes in after Hardaway, Shump, JR, and Prigs. On the other hand our 4’s are Melo, Stat, Bargs(?), Smith, and Tyler(?), Dalembert and Cole. Four of them suck, at least two are always injured. We had more competent guards for one position than we have bigs for two positions.

  17. Acebouch

    The fact is they do/did have two many 2s, and Ellington was the odd man out. Plus getting Acy, who is a type of player (a engery/young/athletic/rebounder type guy) that they didn’t have at the 4 spot, is why they made this deal. (Remember last year with all the rumors of them trying to get Kenneth Faried.) Now they have 3 PGs, 3 SGs, 3 SFs, 3 PFs, and 3Cs, which is what they’ve wanted to do since the the Mavs trade. Lastly, I think they still plan to to play Early well before Outlaw, meaning that if Outlaw plays more than 25 minutes for the entire season than something terribly wrong has happened to their plan.

  18. Brian Cronin

    Does anyone buy that Durant’s decision to pull out of the World Cup was not due to George’s injury?

  19. TDM

    @23 – nope. If Durant suffered a similar injury and was out for a year, he’d have to come back and test a new leg in a contract year. That’s the only positive spin (if it can be called that) to Paul George’s injury — he’ll still have 4 years on his deal when he comes back.

    In other news, Tim Hardaway was signed by Pistons as an asst coach.

  20. GoNyGoNYGo

    @23+24 Durant absolutely dropped out because of George. If he says otherwise, it’s a lie.

    About Bargnani…we need to get used to it. Like it or not (not), he’s going to play and get significant minutes. Just a prediction here, Bargnani averages double the minutes that Cole Aldrich does … at least double.

  21. JK47

    Just a prediction here, Bargnani averages double the minutes that Cole Aldrich does … at least double.

    Possibly, but you can’t count out the fact that Bargnani is extremely injury prone. In fact, Bargs’ injury proneness is one of his best traits.

    Andrea Bargnani, positive traits:
    -Will break down with injury somewhere around the 1000-1200 minute mark, thus paving the way for a better player (read: anybody) to take his place
    -Generates hilariously entertaining GIFs
    -Makes the other players on the Knicks seem not quite so bad
    -Kobe assists galore
    -When he finally leaves your team the rush of euphoria makes you feel like you ate a fistful of MDMA

  22. GoNyGoNYGo

    @26 – That’s why I said “averages”.

    By the way, your early depth chart…
    PG: Calderon , Prigioni, Larkin
    SG: JR Smith, Shumpert, Hardaway
    SF: Anthony, Early, Outlaw
    PF: Stoudemire, Jason Smith, Acy
    C: Dalembert, Bargnani, Aldrich

    It looks interesting. Thoughts?

  23. Brian Cronin

    I think it is more likely that Smith is the back-up center and Bargs and STAT split time at the 4 (I personally would prefer to see Melo remain at the 4 to open up more minutes for Shump/JR at the 3 – it seems like playing Melo at the 3 causes a significant issue with playing time for three of the Knicks’ better players – JR, Shump and Hardaway).

  24. dtrickey

    I think it is more likely that Smith is the back-up center and Bargs and STAT split time at the 4 (I personally would prefer to see Melo remain at the 4 to open up more minutes for Shump/JR at the 3 – it seems like playing Melo at the 3 causes a significant issue with playing time for three of the Knicks’ better players – JR, Shump and Hardaway).

    I would tend to agree. Although I am not as keen to see Melo play the 4 on D, but I don’t know if we have the personal this year for Melo to not guard the opposing 4 while he’s been tasked with offensive duties for the position….if that makes sense., i.e prior to World Peace going down, he could slide too the 4 on D.

  25. Jack Bauer

    I would like to see Bargnani glued to the end of the bench with his sweats on for the entire year ( whether he suffers a major injury in practice or not) .

  26. damaddgenius

    Again, there was no way Ellington saw any floor on this team without significant injuries.

    My take on the rotation: Start Calderon, Shump, Melo, STaT, Dalembert. Larkin should be the second string PG on a short leash, if he’s messing up go to the steady hand in Prigioni. Hardaway gets backup SG minutes. JR gets liberal useage as either a 2 or a 3 depending on if STaT at the 4 is working. Big Smith gets a sprinkle of minutes to keep Melo fresher than he was last year. And Cole should be the backup C. Thats a very acceptable 10 man rotation that can be competitive if coached well. If the Knicks are truly excited about Acy, then they won’t dress Bargs, and Acy will be the 5th big. If they want cleanthony to get garbage time minutes, don’t dress outlaw, and cleanthony sees time if there’s Melo foul trouble and when the game is out of hand.

  27. Hubert

    Can I just repeat the part I don’t understand, and maybe someone can tell me if I’m reading the CBA landscape wrong:

    The Cavs gave Kyrie a 5 year max and are giving Love a 5 year max. So LeBron, when he reups in two years CANNOT get a 5 year mega max deal, correct? Nor can he at any point in the next 5 years. That’s pretty insane. I know he’s fine financially, but he’ll be 32 when it’s time to reup from Cleveland, and that 5th year he could sign for in his age 37 season currently goes for about $30 million. In two years, it could be worth $40-$50 million. If I’m reading this correctly, he’s giving up the chance to ever earn that money for Cleveland. Someone please tell me I’m not reading this correctly.

  28. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    They could trade Irving, right? Lots of teams want an overrated PG with a huge marketing campaign to stand in the place of high production.

  29. Farfa

    What Jowles says, and also:

    It’s very possible (I’d say 80%) that James will opt out this summer to resign again with Cleveland a likely 2-yrs, player option on the second year for the next max. He could opt out again and so on, electing to wait until 2017 to sing the longest, biggest contract possible, when there will be a new lockout, the new TV deal will already be in place and maybe the rules will change about the number of max contract any given team could sign.

    But mostly, what the owner of that Nudie Bar in Cleveland said at @33.

    In fact, I think trading Irving is the better course of action for Cleveland.

  30. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    JD & the Straight Shot

    = James Dolan’s awful band

  31. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    Trade Irving and a pick for Andre Drummond. Have the best frontcourt in league history. Win.

  32. Brian Cronin

    Maybe they just extend Love instead?

    The reports of the trade mentioned that part of the deal would be that Love would opt out of his contract after this season and sign a five-year deal.

  33. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    I still don’t get why a WP48-savvy guy like Morey would pursue WoW rejects like Melo and Bosh so zealously??? Jowles, what’s your take?

    The explanations I’ve read are that:

    1) It’s very important to get to 57+ wins to become a championship contender. After that, the value of a win shoots up dramatically. Playoff series (like the Rockets’ last year) are often decided by a few net points. Last year, Portland scored TWO more points than the Rockets did over the course of the series. If you can get a guy who puts up even a 0.120 WP to eat up some minutes from a lesser player, you do it. It’s much more important to go from 55 to 60 wins than, say, 45 to 50, as far as championship hopes go.

    2) If you’ve got the space at that point, you max yourself out. The difference between a team $5M over the cap or $20M over the cap is luxury tax dollars. That’s it. And considering how valuable a championship is to a franchise, yeah: it’s worth it to get a guy who can give you those extra few wins to win a championship as opposed to winning a few games in the Conference Semis.

    3) Carmelo is not a bad player. Neither is Bosh. The issue is that they’re probably not max players, definitely not supermax players, and definitely not #1 pieces on a Conference Finals team. They’re players you want when you have LeBron and Love already. They’re not players you want to offer $120M to if you don’t already have superstars.

  34. Farfa

    3) Carmelo is not a bad player. Neither is Bosh. The issue is that they’re probably not max players, definitely not supermax players, and definitely not #1 pieces on a Conference Finals team. They’re players you want when you have LeBron and Love already. They’re not players you want to offer $120M to if you don’t already have superstars.

    I think it’s great how you summed up two months of vehement debate across this board in four lines of text.

  35. Z-man

    @41, do you buy that explanation? I mean, it’s plausible, but with the different levels of cap penalties, the effect on whether you have the full MLE or less, etc., doesn’t it seem that Houston would have been better served to go for the Ariza’s and Dengs of the world in the first place? Or to have forced the QO on Parsons, or even matched him? It wasn’t just that he went so strongly for Melo and Bosh, its that he sort of went all in, losing decent (Asik, Parsons, even Lin) pieces in going for them, and settling for Ariza.

  36. TDM

    @43 – Just my speculation, but for arguments sake, if a team pays Player A $20M and Player B $7M for the same production, they may still want to pay Player A the extra cabbage if they know they will make much more than the $13M difference because of corporate sponsor and marketing opportunities.

  37. Farfa

    It wasn’t just that he went so strongly for Melo and Bosh, its that he sort of went all in, losing decent (Asik, Parsons, even Lin) pieces in going for them, and settling for Ariza.

    Don’t forget that the Rockets are quite underachieving because of the unimaginative style of McHale (and his baffling paucity of tactical nuances during the games). Still, the only piece that’s going to be missed is Asik, who was already disgruntled, so you knew you were probably losing him anyway for your locker room’s sake. Houston’s summer is not the failure all those Morey detractors are painting it to be. It is a mild unsuccess, but only because Bosh was a hair away from committing to them. They still have two great players (probably better suited not playing together – for their mindsets, mind you, because for their skills they should be tremendously complementary), a thin bench, a middling coach and a nice starting five.

  38. Farfa

    @43 – Just my speculation, but for arguments sake, if a team pays Player A $20M and Player B $7M for the same production, they may still want to pay Player A the extra cabbage if they know they will make much more than the $13M difference because of corporate sponsor and marketing opportunities.

    Also this.

  39. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    Morey screwed the pooch on the Parsons thing, no doubt. Asik never really had a future in Houston, and Lin, as noted on this site, is basically a score-first SG who plays middling defense. A huge improvement over, say, Felton, but with Harden and Beverly (who may have been a D-Leaguer but is an awesome find and valuefor that team) largely unnecessary.

    Ariza, though, was not mere settling. It was one of the best moves of the offseason. I would have loved to see him land with the Knicks.

  40. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    And Beverley, Harden, Ariza, Terrence Jones and Howard? With Capela, who might be the best player in the 2014 draft, coming off the bench? It’s a great time to be a Rockets fan.

  41. lavor postell

    Don’t forget that the Rockets are quite underachieving because of the unimaginative style of McHale (and his baffling paucity of tactical nuances during the games). Still, the only piece that’s going to be missed is Asik, who was already disgruntled, so you knew you were probably losing him anyway for your locker room’s sake. Houston’s summer is not the failure all those Morey detractors are painting it to be. It is a mild unsuccess, but only because Bosh was a hair away from committing to them. They still have two great players (probably better suited not playing together – for their mindsets, mind you, because for their skills they should be tremendously complementary), a thin bench, a middling coach and a nice starting five.

    Houston’s summer was a complete failure. Ariza is a very nice player and gives them a top-tier wing defender which they desperately needed. I’m wary of his shooting numbers though. Ariza has benefited massively the past 2 seasons from Wall’s exceptional ability to feed the ball to corner shooters. His shot distribution shifted to feature more corner 3’s the past 2 seasons playing in Washington than it had in previous stops in his career.

    http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2772&Season=2013-14&display-mode=performance

    I don’t think he gets nearly as many shots from the corners in Houston as he did in Washington. If you look at Parsons’ shot chart most of his shots came from the wing and top of the key.

    http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=202718&display-mode=performance

    Parsons went 128/349 from 3 last year and 33/78 from the corners with 22.3% of his attempts coming from the corners.

    On 437 attempts from 3 last year Ariza shot /437 and 81/180 from the corners with 41.2% of his attempts coming from the corners.

    Ariza has been a below league average 3 point shooter except when playing with John Wall.

  42. lavor postell

    That’s not getting into them trading Lin at the cost of a first round pick and losing Asik and Parsons this summer. Not matching Parsons was the correct move since it maintained some cap flex and the pick they got for Asik should have good value, but his plan was to put together a championship caliber roster this summer.

    Both him and their owner Leslie Alexander went on record before this summer saying their goal was to land a 3rd star. They failed in that task. That qualifies this summer as a failure. Not an unmitigated disaster crippling the franchise for the foreseeable future, but definitely a failure.

  43. johnno

    “Not an unmitigated disaster”
    The summer as a whole was not an unmitigated disaster, but one aspect was a total disaster — they had Parsons under contract this year for less than the Knicks would have paid Jeremy Tyler this year. They gambled and lost big time by making him a free agent. If they weren’t going to match a big contract offer for him, they never should have let him hit the market in the first place. Morey got a little too cute and outsmarted himself on that one.

  44. Donnie Walsh

    not an unmitigated disaster crippling the franchise for the forseable future…

    Like the Knicks managed to do this offseason!

  45. GoNyGoNYGo

    Has this become the Rocket’s blog????

    @52 -We’ll have to agree to disagree. I do not consider this off-season to be a disaster for the Knicks. I think it’s positive. We now have a point guard and some good players.

    @41 – I consider Melo to be a top-5 player and Bosh is a top-30 player. I thought this over. You can’t convince me that there are 5 better players in the NBA than Anthony. There’s LeBron by himself, then Durant, Melo and CP3. I would rather have him than Noah, Harden, Griffen, Love, Howard, Curry, Parker or anyone else.

    Just my opinion.

  46. johnlocke

    @ 54 — you left out Anthony Davis who at this age, I’d take over Melo every day of the week.

    What stat are you using to support your belief that Melo is a top 5 player? Or is it just the eye test? Just curious — I think he’s one of the best 10 players in the league. But the gap between him and a Lebron, Durant, CP3 to a lesser extent and one day Davis is pretty large.

  47. Frank

    speaking of the Rockets – this is worth reading:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2156716-dwight-howard-and-james-harden-eat-separately-from-houston-rockets-teammates

    the bit about Harden and his “seriousness” is very interesting. it was always thought that OKC traded him because of the luxury tax, and I’m sure that was 90% of that calculation. But Presti is from the Buford/Pop tree, and no doubt takes professionalism and fit within the team construct extremely seriously. He’s kept Perkins around for “veteran leadership” despite massive suckage and talks up Collison, another “glue guy” whenever possible. He brought Derek Fisher in when seemingly no one else wanted him. It seems totally possible to me that Presti had to choose between Ibaka and Harden, and that Harden’s personality was some part of the decision to go with Ibaka instead.

  48. Brian Cronin

    You can’t convince me that there are 5 better players in the NBA than Anthony.

    Ostrich pride! :)

  49. GoNyGoNYGo

    @55 – Let’s call it the eye test. Top scorer, much improved rebounder and defender and leader. He’s had little to work with. No, I don’t think Anthony Davis can hold Melo’s jock strap.

  50. Donnie Walsh

    Has this become the Rocket’s blog????

    To bring all this rockets talk back around to the Knicks– if Anthony really is taking the contract now and deciding on the location later, do the rockets have the cap-space/salary matches to make it possible for them to still realistically obtain him, should Melo decide HOU is where he wants to land?

  51. Donnie Walsh

    You can’t convince me that there are 5 better players in the NBA than Anthony.

    I guess you’ll just have to go to your grave being wrong, then. (And spend a lot of your energy blaming coaches, teammates, and system when his teams continue to flounder)

  52. er

    No, I don’t think Anthony Davis can hold Melo’s jock strap.
    —-No, just no. Stop while you are ahead.

    Davis is a beast and like 23 or something. But Jowels is wrong when he has Love on the same line as Lebron in post 41. Love hasnt proven himself to be a building block yet. So dont say you add Melo and Bosh to Lebron and Love. You add them to Lebron. Love is also proven to be an ancilary player

  53. Kahnzy

    I guess you’ll just have to go to your grave being wrong, then. (And spend a lot of your energy blaming coaches, teammates, and system when his teams continue to flounder)

    For what it’s worth though, it’s not as if Chris Paul (who I’m a big fan of and would love to see him in a Knicks jersey while he’s still in his prime), Kevin Love, James Harden, or a whole host of other players one would put before Anthony have accomplished all that much either.

    There’s LeBron James and then there’s everyone else. It’s his league and everyone else is just fighting for 2nd place.

  54. DRed

    Love hasnt proven himself to be a building block yet.

    The thing about being a building block is that they have to build something around you. It wasn’t Love’s fault he plays in the good conference for a team run by a procession of morons. It really is rare to have a player as great as Love play for six years without going to the playoffs, so I understand the instinct is to look for flaws in his game. It is truly difficult to miss the playoffs with a player as good as Kevin is. But I think what we’ve seen in Minnesota is spectacularly bad team building.

  55. er

    @64 i agree with you. But my main gripe was putting him on the same line as lebron. Hes not that. Jowels said Lebron and Love.

  56. swiftandabundant

    @ 64. I don’t know if you’re pro or anti Melo (or on the fence) but what you are saying is essentially what a lot of Melo defenders say about Melo’s career. Why he never got out of the first round bc he was in the western conference. If Love was a real superstar you’d think he’d be able to at least get his team into the playoffs once in his career.

  57. swiftandabundant

    Yup, and he did get out of the first round. Got to the WCF with an aging Billups as the second best player and had the eventual champs all tied up at 2-2 in that series. I definitely think Melo has areas to his game that he could improve and the new contract at age 30 worries me, but I think people really underappreciate just how good he can be.

  58. thenoblefacehumper

    @ 64. I don’t know if you’re pro or anti Melo (or on the fence) but what you are saying is essentially what a lot of Melo defenders say about Melo’s career. Why he never got out of the first round bc he was in the western conference. If Love was a real superstar you’d think he’d be able to at least get his team into the playoffs once in his career.

    The difference is Melo actually did have other productive players on those Nuggets teams (and they did get to the WCFs once). If you replace Melo with Love on those teams I’m positive they go deeper. Love has never had teammates like Billups, Nene, Birdman, the 60% TS version of JR Smith, etc.

  59. swiftandabundant

    I’m not disagreeing that Melo had better teammates with the nuggets but even before they got Billups, Birdman, etc…Melo took a Nuggets team that had won barely 30 games the previous season and got them into the playoffs his rookie year. Last year was the first year in Melo’s career that he didn’t make the playoffs and he spent most of his career in a tough Western Conference. I think Love is good, but he has a lot to prove in my opinion. I’ve watched Melo many times in his career completely take over a game and go on stretches where his team has looked like the best team in the NBA bc he was simply unstoppable. I’ve never seen anything close to that from Kevin Love. Putting up 30 points a game while still losing is not that impressive to me.

  60. DRed

    I don’t know if you’re pro or anti Melo (or on the fence) but what you are saying is essentially what a lot of Melo defenders say about Melo’s career.

    The difference is those people are wrong. There were plenty of above average guys on the Melo nuggets during his career. Go look at Love’s teammates during his first 4 years on Minny. He had a partial season of Big Al Jefferson . . . and that’s about it. Those teams are cover your eyes terrible except for Love. He was hurt his 5th year. Last year they finally got some decent players around him. So there really only one year you can legitimately argue that his team should have made the playoffs. Do you really feel comfortable saying Love can’t win because of what happened one season?

  61. DRed

    Out of the top 7 in MP of Melo’s teammates during his first season, only one (Voshon Leonard) posted a below average WS. That’s a pretty solid team. Love had 2 teammates with an above average WS his rookie year. (Amazingly, he had none the next). You can’t win with such shitty teammates. People don’t understand how truly terrible the T-Wolves were.

  62. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    Watch how quickly the Kevin Love narrative ends when he puts up a 30-20 games in the playoffs with LeBron at the helm and a bunch of solid defensive and high-efficiency players around then. It’ll be just like the story about perennial T-Wolves loser, Kevin Garnett.

  63. thenoblefacehumper

    So they would have beaten the Lakers if they had Kevin Love instead of Melo? OK….

    Maybe I should’ve been more clear. When I said “those teams” I meant those Nuggets teams in general, not specifically the one that made the WCFs. Basically I just meant they’d be better. There is literally no possible way to prove that, but since Love has been a vastly superior player to Melo for a long time I think it’s a good assumption

  64. Z-man

    Love is a lot of things, but he is not anything like Kevin Garnett. I despise KG, but he was the ultimate 2-way player. Love is a terrible defensive player, and will surely never be in KG’s league on that end.

  65. Z-man

    Garnett was on the NBA all-defensive first team 9 times in 12 years! Kevin Love will probably never make it once in his entire career. Chris Bosh is Bill Russell compared to Love!

  66. thenoblefacehumper

    Garnett was on the NBA all-defensive first team 9 times in 12 years! Kevin Love will probably never make it once in his entire career. Chris Bosh is Bill Russell compared to Love!

    KG was certainly a better defensive player than Love is ever likely to be. Then again, did KG ever do what Love did this past season offensively? 59% TS on 29% usage. He probably came closer to replicating that at some point than Love ever will to replicating KG’s defense, but I don’t think prime KG is a radically better player than prime Kevin Love.

  67. swiftandabundant

    @76 How is Kevin Love a “vastly superior” player to Carmelo for a “long time now.”

    Lets look at their career stats. these are rounded numbers cause I’m lazy

    Melo – 25 ppg, 1.1 steals, 3 assists, 6.5 rebounds

    Love – 19 ppg, 0.7 steals, 2.5 assists, 12 rebounds

    So how is Kevin Love “vastly better” than Carmelo? Because he averages more rebounds? On teams that never make the playoffs? Also, didn’t Love have a season or two where he missed significant games bc of injuries? How is Love “vastly better” than Melo?

  68. swiftandabundant

    Im not bashing Kevin Love, by the way. Just saying that its silly to say Love is better than Melo when the stats don’t really support it and he’s never been to the playoffs. Talk about teammates all you want but its kind of a chicken/egg argument. If a player is really good doesn’t he make life easier for his teammates, thus making them look better and vice versa? I mean, have we seen Birdman without Melo and Lebron? Can we say for sure he’s as good as he is or is it just being on good teams with a clearly defined role?

    JR Smith is a great example. Give him a clearly define role (6th man) in a contract year when healthy on a team with Melo, Chandler, Kidd and other wiley veterans (on a team where everyone knew their role) and you get 6th man of the year JR. Take recovering from knee surgery JR with a not as defined role on a team with no leadership and you get bad JR. Who is the real JR?

  69. thenoblefacehumper

    So how is Kevin Love “vastly better” than Carmelo? Because he averages more rebounds? On teams that never make the playoffs? Also, didn’t Love have a season or two where he missed significant games bc of injuries? How is Love “vastly better” than Melo?

    Nothing personal but if you’re going to compare the per game stats of a player who has always played major minutes and a player who barely played his first two years I’m not really sure I want to continue this debate (not to mention the convenient omission of any kind of efficiency metric). Prime KG did get his teams into the playoffs, due to the fact that he had much better teammates than Love has ever had (it was also easier to get in at the time).

  70. thenoblefacehumper

    Apples and oranges. Comparing Melo and Love futile.

    You think so? I’m not so sure. I think they’re similar enough (in terms of playing style/position, not production) that I feel confident in saying if you swapped Melo for Love on any team, that team would be better.

  71. swiftandabundant

    “it was also easier to get in at that time”

    This is your opinion, no?

    Well, if you don’t want to lower yourself by furthering the debate with me since I’m obviously a neophyte when it comes to basketball, then I guess we’re done here. I was enjoying the back and forth but I guess its beneath you.

  72. thenoblefacehumper

    This is your opinion, no?

    Not really, didn’t they make it multiple times with something like 47 wins? That doesn’t happen anymore.

    Well, if you don’t want to lower yourself by furthering the debate with me since I’m obviously a neophyte when it comes to basketball, then I guess we’re done here. I was enjoying the back and forth but I guess its beneath you.

    Sorry if it came off that way. What I meant was we clearly evaluate players too differently to be able to debate Love and Melo’s careers this way. I’m not going to try and convince you to evaluate players differently, that’s up to you.

  73. DRed

    A

    JR Smith is a great example. Give him a clearly define role (6th man) in a contract year when healthy on a team with Melo, Chandler, Kidd and other wiley veterans (on a team where everyone knew their role) and you get 6th man of the year JR. Take recovering from knee surgery JR with a not as defined role on a team with no leadership and you get bad JR. Who is the real JR?

    The difference in the two years was basically health and media narrative bullshit. Sixth man of the year JR Smith was pretty much same old wildly inconsistent, slightly above average player that he’d always been. He just shot a lot on a team that was surprisingly good.

  74. Owen

    “Davis is a beast and like 23 or something.”

    Davis is 21 and far better than Melo (when he is on the floor.) You’d have to be a lunatic to consider Melo on his level, and that’s not even considering their age difference. Davis actually plays great defense (unlike Melo our man), posted a higher ts% this year than Melo has ever posted, hits his free throws, and has all the tools you could ever want from a big man. And he is 21.

    Anthony Davis will be the best player in the NBA someday if he doesn’t break into 100 million little pieces.

    Arguing Melo and Love isn’t worth it. Love is a lot better, that’s my opinion, and that will be very clear when the Cavs win 65 games this year.

  75. Hubert

    It’s very possible (I’d say 80%) that James will opt out this summer to resign again with Cleveland a likely 2-yrs, player option on the second year for the next max. He could opt out again and so on, electing to wait until 2017 to sing the longest, biggest contract possible, when there will be a new lockout, the new TV deal will already be in place and maybe the rules will change about the number of max contract any given team could sign.

    But he can’t get the biggest contract possible as long as Kyrie & Love are on the team bc you can’t give 3 players 5 year contracts. And as great as LeBron is, he won’t command a mega max at age 37.

    So they will have to trade Kyrie in 2 years to give LeBron the max,

  76. johnno

    Reasonable minds can disagree whether Melo is better or worse than Love and Davis but to assert emphatically that Love is “vastly superior” to Melo or that you’d have to be a “lunatic” to think that Melo is “on Davis’s level” is beyond stupid. Vastly superior? Lunatic? Stop the nonsense. Love is one of the worst defensive forwards in the league both statistically and by the “eye test.” Great player but in no way “vastly superior’ to Melo.

  77. DRed

    Love is one of the worst defensive forwards in the league by what statistics? He’s certainly not Tim Duncan, but I don’t think he’s as bad as you do.

    Anthony Davis is better than Melo by just about any way you want to measure basketball players, and he’s 8 or 9 years younger. Have you ever watched Anthony Davis play?

  78. thenoblefacehumper

    Vastly superior? Lunatic? Stop the nonsense.

    I mean, dude, what isn’t Love better at? Love’s defense isn’t great but I think people overstate how bad it is just because it doesn’t match up with his offense, which is incredibly (historically in some ways) good. He’s vastly superior to Melo because he’s better at everything, and way better at some things.

  79. thenoblefacehumper

    And Anthony Davis, seriously guys? If you make the argument that Melo is even close to Love’s level because of defense, what argument can you make for him being close to Davis?

  80. johnno

    Check the numbers. Over the last two years, Melo has shot much better than Love from 10-16 feet, 16 feet to the 3 point line, and on 3 pointers. Love’s defensive numbers are bottom 5 in the league on points per shot and field goal percentage given up in the post. He also is among the league “leaders” in how many times the other teams attack him in the paint — presumably because they go at him because they know that he is a lousy post defender. Re: Davis — he’s great but, right now, Melo is a much more versatile offensive player. Maybe Davis is better than Melo, maybe not, but it’s stupid to say that you have to be a “lunatic” if you think Melo is “in his league.”

  81. Hubert

    Watch how quickly the Kevin Love narrative ends when he puts up a 30-20 games in the playoffs with LeBron at the helm and a bunch of solid defensive and high-efficiency players around then. It’ll be just like the story about perennial T-Wolves loser, Kevin Garnett.

    All that would be true for Melo if he had LeBron as a teammate, too.

    Sorry, I’m just not buying this whole “Kevin Love is clearly better than Carmelo Anthony” stuff. They are extremely comparable players. I’d obviously trade Melo for Love in a heartbeat bc love is 24, but i don’t think love is better than Melo now and I sure as hell don’t think that what he does playing next to LeBron should vault him ahead of melo. If Melo got to play 5 years w LeBron, the conversation about him would be vastly different and we’d be talking up all the things he’s great at instead of killing for what he isn’t great at. Neither Melo nor Love is a true #1, both are meant to be #2 guys. Love will get his chance to excel in the role he was born to play, while Melo must continue to flounder in a role neither he nor Love is good enough for.

  82. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    Anthony Davis is so much better than Carmelo that this thread should be deleted so no other Truehoop readers come on here and think we’re idiots for even entertaining it.

    Davis is probably the only player worth trading LeBron James or Kevin Durant for. I wouldn’t, but I might.

  83. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    They are extremely comparable players.

    What? Because they both play in the NBA or something?

  84. JK47

    They are extremely comparable players.

    Sure, they’re comparable, it’s just that when you compare them it’s obvious Kevin Love is a better player.

  85. DRed

    Over the last two years, Melo has shot much better than Love from 10-16 feet, 16 feet to the 3 point line, and on 3 pointers.

    That’s certainly good, but what are you leaving out?

  86. Brian Cronin

    I think Love is demonstrably better than Melo, but I think it is fair to say that they’re both roughly in the same tier of players. To wit, Love is not in Lebron or Durant’s ballpark. He’s comfortably in a lower tier of players (I guess I’d say third tier, fourth if you feel Durant is not really on Lebron’s tier) with Melo, Harden, Curry and others. In that tier, I think Melo is on the lower end of that tier, but it is still a really good tier to be on. Melo is an excellent NBA player right now. He has transformed his game to being one of the top offensive players in the entire league. He’s really good. He’s worse than Love, but not by some great distance. They’re comparable players, it is just that, as JK notes, Melo “loses” that comparison, but it isn’t a big deal (hence “loses” being in quotes – if that’s a loss, sign me up for losing!). To wit, prime Patrick Ewing wasn’t as good as Hakeem Olajuwon, but it doesn’t mean that Patrick Ewing wasn’t an excellent player.

    Now Davis, however, that dude is on a whole other tier. That guy is second tier (third if you think Lebron has his own tier and then Durant has his own second tier). There’s no reasonable way of comparing Melo to Davis where Melo looks remotely as good as Davis. He’s a dominant offensive player and he’s a dominant defensive player. And he only just turned 21! There’s no shame in not being as good as Anthony Davis. Few players are.

  87. Owen

    but to assert emphatically that Love is “vastly superior” to Melo or that you’d have to be a “lunatic” to think that Melo is “on Davis’s level” is beyond stupid. Vastly superior? Lunatic? Stop the nonsense.

    I said it was “my opinion” that Love was vastly superior because I just don’t feel like going down that rabbit hole.

    But when it comes to Davis I am not going to qualify anything. Last year he was better than Melo has ever been in any year. He is a once in a generation kind of player who should’t even be mentioned in the same sentence as a third-tier star like Melo.

    He’s already much better as even a cursory glance at the numbers last year show. His scoring rate was 82% of Melo’s, he was more efficient, and committed fewer turnovers while playing stellar defense. This as a 20 year old center.

    It’s not close now, it’s not ever going to be close.

  88. thenoblefacehumper

    Over the last two years, Melo has shot much better than Love from 10-16 feet, 16 feet to the 3 point line, and on 3 pointers.

    These are all aspects of scoring, which Love was better at last year (slightly lower volume with better efficiency). Yes, the narrative about Melo would be different if he was paired with LeBron, that doesn’t mean anything in terms of how he compares to Love. Melo and Love both had career years last year and Love’s was a shit ton better.

  89. Brian Cronin

    True, but you can pick weird combinations like that all the time. To wit, only seven players have ever averaged 26 points, 12 rebounds and 4 assists in a single season – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Bob McAdoo, Elgin Baylor, Billy Cunningham and Kevin Love. It surely doesn’t mean that Love is on par with those guys, ya know?

  90. max fisher-cohen

    @swiftandabundant

    These were the top 8 players of 02/03 17 win Nuggets in order of minutes played:

    Juwan Howard, Nene (rookie), Junior Harrington, Donnell Harvey, Rodney White, Vincent Yarbrough, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, Ryan Bowen

    This is the same for Melo’s rookie year:

    Carmelo Anthony, Andre Miller, Nene, Voshon Leonard, Marcus Camby, Earl Boykins, Jon Barry, Chris Anderson

    It’s not the same team at all. One player overlap. Giving Anthony sole credit for turning around the Nuggets would be like if you gave rookie Rajon Rondo credit for turning around the 2007 Celtics.

  91. er

    @107 very fair. I just don’t think it was like he made Melo look like a MLE player. At least that’s what a shit ton means to me. I read that article it was pretty good as was Simmons earlier Melo article

  92. Brian Cronin

    I agree “shit ton” is too far. I’m only going with “demonstrably better.” They’re both really, really good.

    Anthony Davis might be a shit ton better, though. :)

  93. Brian Cronin

    These were the top 8 players of 02/03 17 win Nuggets in order of minutes played:

    Juwan Howard, Nene (rookie), Junior Harrington, Donnell Harvey, Rodney White, Vincent Yarbrough, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, Ryan Bowen

    This is the same for Melo’s rookie year:

    Carmelo Anthony, Andre Miller, Nene, Voshon Leonard, Marcus Camby, Earl Boykins, Jon Barry, Chris Anderson

    It’s not the same team at all. One player overlap. Giving Anthony sole credit for turning around the Nuggets would be like if you gave rookie Rajon Rondo credit for turning around the 2007 Celtics.

    Yeah, all of this stuff based on team wins is silly. To wit, James Harden was a major part of a team that made it to the NBA Finals in his third season in the NBA, does he gain credit when he is compared to other players because of that? Of course not, because he had awesome teammates. So he doesn’t get credit for his awesome teammates yet other players get demerits based on their shitty teammates.

  94. iserp

    Yeah, all of this stuff based on team wins is silly. To wit, James Harden was a major part of a team that made it to the NBA Finals in his third season in the NBA, does he gain credit when he is compared to other players because of that? Of course not, because he had awesome teammates. So he doesn’t get credit for his awesome teammates yet other players get demerits based on their shitty teammates.

    Yeah, but Kevin Love’s seasons has been 24,15,17,26,40 wins. It is not like he has just barely missed the playoffs, it is that he has been terrible. And he missed a season with a broken hand that the team won 31 wins (when his minutes went to the great Derrick Williams).

    Anthony Davis is much better than Carmelo. But if i have to choose between Melo and Love, i take Melo 100 times out of 100. And I really believe that LeBron is gonna miss Bosh at some point during the season.

  95. Brian Cronin

    Love’s team won more games than Melo’s team in a much harder conference just this past season.

    And that says nothing about Melo.

    Or Love.

    Because team wins don’t mean anything when it comes to judging individual players.

    Melo’s best individual season just came in a year when his team had its worst season. Why’s that? Because team wins don’t mean anything when it comes to individual players. Individual players can only do what they can do – if their teammates suck, then their team will still suck.

    And to reiterate, when the Cavs are awesome this year, will that mean that Love suddenly decided to start winning games all of a sudden? Or did he just get much better teammates? (hint – it’s the second one – because team wins are based on a collection of players and not based on individual players)

  96. er

    i disagree. Remove Melo and Love and no one on the Knicks could have started for Minny. Thats a vast difference in this one year.

  97. Brian Cronin

    It’s almost as if you’re suggesting the Timberwolves did better than the Knicks this past season because Love had better teammates, which is exactly the point I am making.

    When Melo’s teammates play well, Melo’s teams do well. When they suck, his teams suck. Because team wins are not based on individual players.

  98. iserp

    When Melo’s teammates play well, Melo’s teams do well. When they suck, his teams suck. Because team wins are not based on individual players.

    On one hand, you are making the argument that you can’t read how good or bad a player is from your team record; but on the other hand you conclude that since Love’s team has done badly, then Love’s teammates must suck.

    I don’t know, maybe Love is the one who sucks and his teammates are alright. When your team does more or less the same when Love is on the court or Derrick Williams is, it does not speak good about Love.

    Love is obviously a very good player, shoots very well and is an underrated assister. But i think his rebounding numbers are deceiving and is bad at defense.

  99. johnno

    @102 — I was merely responding to someone’s challenge to name one thing that Melo does better than Love. Answer — he’s a much better mid and long range shooter. He also gets more steals and blocks (which is particularly damning since Love is a 4/5 and Melo is a 3/4) than Love. As far as what Melo does better than Davis– he is a much much better mid and long range shooter than Davis and also gets more than twice as many assists. He’s also a much better ball-handler. (I realize that Davis is only 20, but we were comparing players right now, not where they’ll be in a year or two). I’ll say it again– while I think that Melo is better than Love and Davis right now, I can certainly understand why people disagree. However, to act like Melo is a complete scrub compared to them is idiotic.

  100. DRed

    On one hand, you are making the argument that you can’t read how good or bad a player is from your team record; but on the other hand you conclude that since Love’s team has done badly, then Love’s teammates must suck.

    Or, you could look up who Kevin Love’s teammates were and see how productive they were, and then conclude that they sucked.

  101. Farfa

    Quite off-topic, I predict Kevin Love will make his Cavs debut with a 20-30 (yes, you read that right. 20ish points, 30ish rebounds, a la Sir Charles when he debuted for the Rockets).

  102. iserp

    Or, you could look up who Kevin Love’s teammates were and see how productive they were, and then conclude that they sucked.

    Well, i think that Rubio and Pekovic are not a bad building block for a team. Would you really prefer Klay Thompson and Andrew Bogut?

    And they didn’t do much differently when Derrick Williams was playing instead of Kevin Love.

  103. lavor postell

    Kevin Love is a really good player. Ranking the top-15 players in the league is usually a crapshoot because it comes down to your personal preferences and biases. Love is comfortably in that group but beating people over the head and belittling their opinion because they think Melo is better than Love is currently is stupid. I can understand ranking Love anywhere from 4-15 and I can also see why people would think Melo is better than Love or why Love is better than Melo.

    Both of their net ratings last year were incredible (Love had a net/48 of +11.7), with the difference being that Adelman ran asinine substitution patterns in which the starters basically only played with each other so they all had crazy good net ratings. Brewer had a net/48 of +10.2 and Rubio finished with a net/48 of +12.8.

    Melo’s net rating is impressive because he played heavy minutes with everybody on the team, the majority of whom spent the first 4 months of the season being awful at basketball, and still finished with a better net/48 than Love (+12.3). Melo’s production was staggered among the best and worst of our shitty supporting cast and he still finished with a better net rating than all-time legend Kevin Love who played the vast majority of his minutes with the only other productive players on the Timberwolves’ roster.

    For example the lineup Love played the most with was Rubio-Martin-Brewer-Love-Pekovic (aka the starters) and they played 1056 minutes together (close to 20 minutes per game since Pek only played 54 gams last year). Melo’s most common lineup was Felton-JR-Melo-STAT-Chandler (aka starters that closed the year strong) and they played 286 minutes together. Love’s second most common lineup substituted Dieng for Pekovic after he got hurt and played 225 minutes together. Melo’s second most common lineup was Felton-JR-THJ-Melo-Chandler and they played 195 minutes together. Melo played heavy minutes alongside fucking Bargs and still was a massive plus.

  104. lavor postell

    http://www.82games.com/1314/13MIN14.HTM#onoff

    http://www.82games.com/1314/13NYK11.HTM#onoff

    I think Melo had a slightly more positive affect on his team last season, but I also would have expected Love to surpass him this upcoming season regardless of whether it was on a Timberwolves team battling for 8th seed in the West or on a juggernaut Cleveland team spotting up on the perimeter for Lebron and crashing the offensive glass. Love’s younger and will likely surpass Melo’s peak career production over the next 4-5 years as he enters his prime, but based on last year alone I don’t think it’s absurd to have trepidation about ranking Melo over Love, or vice versa.

  105. DRed

    Kevin Love is better than Carmelo by the following measures: scoring efficiency, offensive rebounding, defensive rebounding, passing, ORTG, DRTG, PER, WS, WP, net rating, Regularized Adjusted plus minus, and Real Plus Minus. Carmelo Anthony is better than Kevin Love at blocking shots, stealing the ball, shooting long range jump shots, and playing with productive teammates. I wouldn’t say you’re delusional if you think Carmelo is better than Kevin Love, but you’re almost certainly wrong. You have to come up with a lot of excuses to explain away Love’s clear statistical superiority.

  106. lavor postell

    His on floor net rating was better last year because he played 80% of his minutes with the starters and only other productive players on the team last year. In terms of net rating including on and off numbers he was marginally worse than Melo despite the fact Melo played minutes alongside everybody on this tire fire of a roster.

  107. DRed

    “You have to come up with a lot of excuses to explain away Love’s clear statistical superiority.”

    . . .

    “His on floor net rating was better last year because he played 80% of his minutes with the starters and only other productive players on the team last year. In terms of net rating including on and off numbers he was marginally worse than Melo despite the fact Melo played minutes alongside everybody on this tire fire of a roster.”

  108. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    Simple Rating is garbage based on PER, which is also garbage. Does not conflict with eye-test; however, is not predictive in the least.

    http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/articles/the-timberwolves-the-trauma-ward

    The Wolves had a poor team last year, losing Kirilenko (an all-timer in terms of being underrated), and still finished at 3.10 SRS, which would have been #3 in the East. Kevin Love is awesome, and like Carmelo Anthony, plays for losing teams when surrounded by bad players, no matter how well he plays.

  109. thenoblefacehumper

    His on floor net rating was better last year because he played 80% of his minutes with the starters and only other productive players on the team last year. In terms of net rating including on and off numbers he was marginally worse than Melo despite the fact Melo played minutes alongside everybody on this tire fire of a roster.

    Comparing the on/off numbers of two guys on different teams doesn’t make sense to begin with, and if the only thing you have in terms of an argument in Melo’s favor is “net rating including on and off numbers” you’re pretty much conceding that Melo is worse.

  110. lavor postell

    Jowles that’s very concise and well put. I don’t think we’ll ever see eye to eye about Melo or Love but I agree with your point and like I said whatever qualms I have about Love are picking nits on the margins. There’s no question he’s one of the best players in the league.

  111. lavor postell

    @thenoblefacehumper

    OK?

    Funny because I’m not really going to argue anybody that thinks love is better than Melo. I just think its funny how people get offended there may be people who feel there’s a legitimate argument Melo is better than Love.

  112. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    We can at least say he’s one of the best offensive players in the league, maybe the best pure PF scorer since, I don’t know, Malone?

    I have no problem pointing out that he has a bad reputation as a defender, but if he has game like he did last year, and LeBron stays healthy, you’ve got about .55 WP48 from those two alone, minimum. If Varejao can stay healthy that’s an easy 60-win team. If Irving fixes his shooting problems and they avoid playing negative-value players like Norris Cole, they’re a 65-win team.

    I never thought I’d be saying that about the 2015 Cavs. We’ve got about 3 more years of peak LeBron, I think. Enjoy the spectacle.

  113. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    Nowitzki, not Malone. But Nowitzki is still awesome.

  114. nicos

    We can at least say he’s one of the best offensive players in the league, maybe the best pure PF scorer since, I don’t know, Malone?

    Wait, a guy with a career TS% of .566 (and has never cracked .600) is the best pure scorer at his position since Malone (or Nowitzki)? If you really believe that then you’re going to love this Carmelo Anthony guy the Knicks just signed. Hell, Amar’e at 25 was a far better pure scorer than Love has been to this point. I expect Love to post a .60 TS% this year but I highly doubt he’s going to put up a .656 (on a usage of over 28) like Amar’e did when he was 25.

  115. Thomas B.

    So with Love to the Cavs, you know have three guys who each played the role of older basketball players in shoe commercials. That might be a first.

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