Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, November 1, 2014

The Question is Moot!*

It has come to light that our high holy savior, one Saint Jeremy of Lin, will not be playing for the remainder of the series, alas. But prior to this soul-crushing announcement, word on the street (or rather, the interwebs) was that John Kenney had gotten on his e-soapbox and has been proclaiming (or at least tweeting) for all the world to see that Jeremy Lin be dragooned out of whatever secret German clinic Dolan’s goons have him ‘recuperating’ in, and back onto the court for Wednesday night’s game. Even though the matter has been settled, I had to investigate. I couldn’t fathom why even a peevish bole weevil of a man like Kenney would espouse something so colossally short-sighted. Had Johnny boy gotten hooked on the bad stuff again? I remember the time that I spent the night with him at that Motel 6 in Passaic while he sweated it out of his system, babbling incoherently about mystical visions of corporate sinecures and cul-de-sacs with leprosy-ridden leprechauns. But since, as you well know,  dear readers, I will stop at nothing to divine the absolute truth, Mr. Kenney and I offer a point-counterpoint debate in which we fully plumb the depths of this no-longer-relevant question. Here, in all its unedited glory, are the results…

 

JOHN KENNEY

Ok Bob, now listen to me for a moment. I know your greedy, one-percenter soul wants to keep Jeremy chained to the bench and “protect the Knicks’ investment.” And, if playing means Jeremy’s at serious risk of injuring himself further, then I agree with you and your money-grubbing ways. We’ve got a young, exciting point guard, and jeopardizing his career isn’t worth the chance that he might make the team slightly better in a series it will, most likely, lose.

But…..

But……………

But……………………….

If there’s not substantial risk of detrimental re-injury (not just swelling after the game, but a new tear of a ligament etc.)…. then Jeremy absolutely should play. Can’t you see it Bob? This is real drama! This is the stuff movies are made of! When you get your corporate account to finance tickets to the the-ay-a-ter, doesn’t something move you inside? The narrative demands he play! Think about it: Jeremy Lin is the only reason the Knicks are even in the playoffs. They were 7 games under .500 before he arrived, and then he promptly marched them right back into playoff contention. Don’t you remember the Nets, the Jazz, the Raptors, the Lakers, the Mavericks? This is a kid who willed a team to victory when it needed it most, who saved the 2011-2012 season (as much as it could be saved) and who has been hidden in the tomb like a certain religious figure for far too long. Isn’t it time for the Resurrection of Jeremy Lin?

There are arguments against him playing (besides that he might get injured,) I know. Some feel that he might be “out-of-shape” after being away so long. Some worry about how he will mesh with the Carmelo-tastic style of basketball the Knicks have adopted. Others remember that he struggled mightily against yon foes in ages past. THIS IS WHAT THE DRAMATIC ARC DEMANDS. Of course his return has to come against the team that gave him his lowest low. Of course he has to weigh short-term risk against long-term reward. Of course it has to come as his desire to help his team is weighed by pundits against his impending free agency.

I can see it now…

Cut to AGENT driving in a CONVERTIBLE on his CELL PHONE

AGENT: Jeremy, you don’t have to this. You’ve made your money. Listen to what Bucher said! Take it easy. Enjoy a few drinks on the house from your new sponsors, Morgan Robert Silverman Stanley.

Cut to JEREMY in DARK ROOM with music playing in background

JEREMY: *thinks*

Cut to D’ANTONI in DARKER ROOM with Billy Joel playing in background

D’ANTONI: *drinks*

Sorry, got distracted there for a moment. The point is, this Knicks season has been crazier than any I can remember. Part of this might be that the first Knicks season I can remember happened in 1998, but the more important fact is that it’s been the type of season that makes sports memorable and can turn it into art. Books could be written about it. Movies could be made about it. A musical…well….we’ll see. The narrative of the season demands it. But even better yet, (since I know a million commenters are ready to skewer me like a kebab in the comment sections for not talking about “basketball” so far…)

It can’t hurt.

The three most successful starting point guards for the Knicks throughout the course of this season were Jeremy Lin, Baron Davis, and Iman Shumpert. All are out with knee injuries, Baron and Iman are done for the season. Mike Bibby, clutch dagger 3 aside, can only play so many minutes. (I actually don’t mind JR bringing the ball up the court, or what have you, but still.) So spare me the nonsense about Jeremy being out-of-shape or a bad fit against the Heat. First off, Mike Bibby is actually a member of the upcoming undead invasion and we’re playing him. Secondly, the first time Jeremy played the Heat, he was expected to play a major role in leading the ‘Bockers to victory. This time, everyone knows he’s coming off an injury. Expectations are lowered. The game is on the road. Most people do not truly believe the Knicks will win the series. Hell, Coach Woodson, start Mike Bibby if you want to. Your rotations have made less sense than…than…well, anything else I can think of. But bring Jeremy off the bench (that’s where Linsanity first began, after all.) Let him see what he can do against the Heat’s midgame lineups. Let him be a caretaker, more Trent Dilfer than Brett Favre. If the game gets out of hand, pull him and rest him. No reason to risk it if the season is well and truly over. But if the game is close…and the Knicks D is frustrating the Heat attack…and Jeremy is looking spry…then let him play. Grant Hill came back from meniscus surgery after, what, two weeks? Every knee injury is different, but lots of meniscus tears are not that bad.

Go re-watch the Knicks-Lakers highlights, just one time. And tell me you wouldn’t start leaping for joy the first basket he hit. The fact is, the Knicks are down 3-1. Teams have come back from down 3-1 before. That is how the Knicks HAVE to approach this game, or else they might as well forfeit right now. And Jeremy Lin gives them a better chance to win the game.

I was lucky enough to be in Madison Square Garden for the Game 4 win. To see the celebration after the Knicks finally won their first playoff game in eleven years…Knicks fans know better than most just how much one of those wins is worth. When you have a chance to win a playoff game, you take it. Can you imagine Madison Square Garden if the Knicks brought this to a Game 6? Can you?

 

 

ROBERT SILVERMAN

My god, it’s worse than dope. You’ve been watching MSNBC, reading Alternet articles and hanging around in some Bushwick Coffee shop/Sufi Meditation center with the likes of Chris Hedges and his ilk again, haven’t you! Look at yourself! Literally, go over to the mirror and see what all of this insane blather about narrative  has done to your once finely-tuned cerebral cortex. You’ve fallen like a doe-eyed coed for the superficial pleasures of the lively arts. Let me tell you something, the real theater is nothing like the weepy romanticized twaddle you’re trying to fob off on our stalwart readership. Life in the theat-uh makes the Bataan Death March look like a leisurely stroll in on one of the tonier beaches of the French Riviera. Hell, why do you think I haul my will-submitting ass to AA meetings every evening like clockwork. Pickling my own brain and lying in the gutter in a pile of my own sick, an empty tequila bottle by my side with a particularly haggard chihuahua giving me an odd, sideways glance was preferable to writhing in a sweaty heap in bed every night, haunted by the memories of those selfish, sick, twisted, narcissistic, backbiting, ignorant, self-indulgent poopheaded dramatists that I sadly called my colleagues. And no matter how hard I work the steps scrub my medulla oblongata, I still can’t get rid of the stench. But never mind that now. If you want to talk dramatic structure, why do you assume that this will play out like a jovial musical comedy? Isn’t it just as likely that after a moment of fleeting, giddy miraculous joy like game three, the gods are ready to bring down an infernal, galactic shit-hammer upon our collective noggins in game five?

And don’t go writing dialogue into this post. FAKE SCENES ARE MY TURF,  HOSS!.  If you want to get dramaturgical, how’s this for a bone-crushingly awful 5th (umpteenth?) act to this Ionesco-esque nightmare of a season.

MARV ALBERT: (Sounding, as always as if he’s sporting some horrid, genital-restraining leather contraption underneath his Men’s Wearhouse suit) Welcome everyone to GAME FIVE of the 2012 National…Basketball…Association Playoffs. I’m Marv Albert and we are here  In…a…SCENE that harkens back to the YEO-man EFF-orts of the GREAT…Willis Reed, Jeremy Lin…is coming out of the tunnel! And listen to the crowd at…AMERICAN…Airlines arena. They are LIT-erally shaking the building..to its foundation.

HUBIE BROWN: Okay. You’re Jeremy Lin. You have had an amazing 2nd season in which you became a worldwide phenomenon because you were able to solve the Knicks season-long problems at point guard by being able to consistently beat your man off the dribble, had amazing balance and co-ordination, were surprisingly strong for 6’3″ guard, had outstanding court vision, were able to run the pick and roll, and came up yooooge in big games because you were able to seize the moment, thereby saving Mike D’Antoni’s job for the short term and revitalizing basketball in the great city of New York only to suffer a devastating injury to your torn meniscus which as we all know is very difficult for a player whose game is so dependent on quick cuts and explosive moves to the basket. Now, in the biggest game of…

MARV: I hate to interrupt Hubie, but there is some kind of commotion going on in the layup line. It seems some kind of…ZEP-pel-in…is suspended in the RAF-ters. Why is a dirigible in the arena, Hubie?

HUBIE: Ok, you’re piloting a hydrogen-based flying machine. And…

MARV: Oh No! It burst into flames! It burst into flames, and it’s falling, it’s crashing on Jeremy Lin! Watch it! Watch it, Jeremy! Get out of the way! Get out of the way!  It’s fire—and it’s crashing! It’s crashing terrible! Oh, my, Jeremy get out of the way, please! It’s burning and bursting into flames, and the—and it’s falling on Lin’s leg and all the folks agree that this is terrible, this is the worst of the worst catastrophes in the world! Lin has been burnt to death! Oh the humanity!!

After watching STAT mangle his palm on a fire extinguisher, Davis’ knee turn to a substance that most closely resembles guacamole, and Shump writhing on the ground in preternatural agony, you’re really willing to roll the dice on a set of indubtably wobbly ligaments? Do you not remember what happened to Derrick Rose? How many point guards need to be rushed back from injury this post-season only to be sacrificed at your blood altar before we start to learn from (recent) history?

And if karmic destiny isn’t enough to convince you, I’m going to go all risk-reward on your tuchus. Even at full strength, the chances of winning this series were supermodel slim at best. Like it or not, when properly motive, the South Beachers really do bring a terryfying shock and awe-level blitzkreig. For fifteen (at most) minutes a night, what is Lin really going to provide. Remember, our wunderkind hasn’t played a professional game for more than six weeks at this point. Rusty? Hell, he’s going to be covered in more reddish-brown oxidized iron than a Studebaker that’s been sitting up on blocks somewhere in Midwest since Ike Eisenhower was running the show. Is that limited result really worth the risk of permanently damaging the Chosen One?  We’ve got a long-term investment to protect here! Patience, grasshopper. There will be more seasons and more brutal playoff disappointments with a soupcon of dizzying, exhilarating, high notes. At this juncture, I’d rather wed our hopes to the Corpse Bride for 25-odd minutes plus whatever point forward-ish qualities we can squeeze out of Melo and J.R.

More importantly, like the rest of your deluded, Liberal generation, you’ve fallen hook line and sinker for advertising. The Knicks aren’t selling you the steak, they’re selling the sizzle. Not the true satisfaction of accomplishment or achievement, but the false, temporary allure of “hope,” — the last refuge of the deluded romantic and the cruelest, sharpest tool ever devised to manipulate gullible Lefties like you. Sweet fancy Moses, peep what that barely-functioning knuckle-dragger/Cablevision stooge, Al Trautwig, was quoted as saying: “I always wondered how the Jeremy Lin movie would end. Here we go…Jeremy Lin returns for Game 5 and leads the Knicks to become the only team in NBA history to come back from an 0-3 deficit.” Sure, Bubba. Where do I sign? Do you want my credit card and social security number too?

No sirree. Johnny, you gotta join me and my madulin circle of miserable, self-satisfied realists. We’re not much fun at parties and the women may not like us very much, but by Jeezum crow, we’re right.  That and a buck twenty-five will get you a jelly donut.

 

*Oh, and for all you whipersnappers who didn’t get the reference in the title, watch this. It’s a sack of funny. (Or at least it was in 1984)

83 comments on “The Question is Moot!*

  1. Spree8nyk8

    After waiting 4000+ days for them to win a playoff game I’d kinda like to see the team commit to doing anything and everything to win every playoff game they can. The odds of them coming back in this series are very long, but at some point some team is going to do it. So why not this team? If we are going to always not play today because we might get hurt and it might keep us from playing down the road, well we are never going to win. At some point you do have to get away from the “it’s not worth it” argument or it’s never going to be “worth it”. For a team that saw a gimpy Willis Reed hobble onto a court to help take down a title you would think there would be a bigger understanding of the emotional lift Lin could bring to the rest of the team. He doesn’t have to be explosive to be effective. If Lin merely played, and didn’t do particularly well but it fired up the rest of the team….well that counts as being effective. Every fucking year we spend this time of the year pointing to next year. It’s so old. Put everything you can out on the floor and play to win. If something bad happens then fuck it, something bad happened. Sports are supposed to be about leaving it all out there. Not holding back because you’re afraid.

    As long as this is the mentality of this team, we will continue to be the butt of jokes. And rightfully so.

  2. Shad0wF0x

    Spree, I wish people would stop mentioning the Willis Reed return in the 1st round of the playoffs. I was one of the people that thought it was just dumb for Brandon Roy to return to the court that early and look what happened. If this was Game 7 of the NBA finals then I would definitely want Lin to go for it.

  3. Spree8nyk8

    Shad0wF0x:
    Spree, I wish people would stop mentioning the Willis Reed return in the 1st round of the playoffs. I was one of the people that thought it was just dumb for Brandon Roy to return to the court that early and look what happened. If this was Game 7 of the NBA finals then I would definitely want Lin to go for it.

    I wish people would stop pointing out injuries that are completely different. Roy had no cartiledge left in his knee, he did not have a minor knee injury. It’s not even close to what Lin has, Roy was several injuries down the line. And since you are saying “look what happened, well…..nothing happened. He didn’t get hurt again at that time. His knee was degenerating already but he made it through those playoffs without injuring it. It just happened to be that his knee was too far gone at that point for him to recover. So had he not played in that series he’d still be in exactly the same place. So I guess thanks for confirming my argument.

    The odds of Lin re-injuring himself are not very high. And if we are just gonna sit people so that they don’t re-injure themselves well then why don’t we just forfeit, bc Melo or Tyson could possibly get hurt in game 5. And I mean the game doesn’t matter right? That’s what you just said. So, if it doesn’t matter lets just not play it. Forfeit the game and then everyone can come back next season. And we can forfeit that season too so nobody gets hurt. Or if for some stupid reason they do play and make the playoffs again we can just forfeit those games too, bc it’s just the first round…..and as you just implied, those games don’t matter and they aren’t worth winning when there is a small possibility that someone can get hurt.

    Sounds kinda stupid right? The whole point of playing is to get to the playoffs and win. Not get here and sit out bc something bad might…

  4. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    So Jeremy Lin, a longshot to even make it to Division 1 basketball, much less the NBA or as the starter on a playoff team, who is currently nursing a significant knee injury that kept him out for several months, who also is riding out a rookie minimum contract, should play, down 3-1 to the best team in the Eastern Conference (by a large margin) because spree8nyk8 feels that, “Hell, we got here, might as well go all out?”

    Come on, man.

  5. Spree8nyk8

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    So Jeremy Lin, a longshot to even make it to Division 1 basketball, much less the NBA or as the starter on a playoff team, who is currently nursing a significant knee injury that kept him out for several months, who also is riding out a rookie minimum contract, should play, down 3-1 to the best team in the Eastern Conference (by a large margin) because spree8nyk8 feels that, “Hell, we got here, might as well go all out?”

    Come on, man.

    You need to google the definitions of significant and several.

    And, yeah if it’s possible for him to play he should play.

  6. llcoolbp

    I totally agree with you spree. Lin or even 5 minutes could give this team the emotional push it needs to win this game.

  7. Spree8nyk8

    Jesus Christ man, does anyone ever feel like a player should simply do for the betterment of the team? Or should every player only put themselves first? Bc apparently if you are on the Knicks it’s ok for you to bail on your coach and quit on the team if you don’t like how you are used and to sit out when it would be possible to play bc you are on a minimum contract. That’s the dumbest fucking shit I’ve ever heard. If you don’t want to play in the playoffs bc you are worried about hurting your next contract then you don’t deserve a fucking contract (and I don’t for a second believe that is how Lin feels). Now if Lin is saying simply “I can’t play, I’m in too much pain still”. THAT is different. If he can’t go then he can’t go. But if he can go there is no fucking way he there should even be a discussion about it. He makes our team better plain and simple.

    So just to be clear I’m not saying he should be told to play when he isn’t ready. I’m saying that this notion that he shouldn’t play simply for the sake of not getting hurt is dumb. People get hurt in sports. If you are that afraid of getting hurt then go get a fucking 9 to 5.

  8. Spree8nyk8

    llcoolbp:
    I totally agree with you spree. Lin or even 5 minutes could give this team the emotional push it needs to win this game.

    Thank effing god I’m not alone here.

  9. Will the Thrill

    No way Lin should play. If we win it’l be a miracle, with our without him. There is no way he would even help the team if he isn’t 100%, and he most likely would perform badly being out for a month and all. Nobody said the game didn’t matter, but it definitely doesn’t matter as much as a game 7 of the NBA finals when I’d say we have about a 2% chance of winning the series. If you sincerely think Lin’s rusty play against the Miami Heat (who he struggled mightily against while 100%) will win us the series, then I can see why people would want him to play, but I just don’t get it.

  10. Will the Thrill

    The ability to play 100% and having a low chance of re-injury goes hand in hand. He’s not 100%, obviously, and he may not be even close to 100%, and therefore there is a larger chance of re-injury. It’s not like he is perfectly healthy and they are just keeping him off the court because of the risk of injury, he said the other day he had problems jumping/cutting. Those things are pretty important against the Heat, right?

  11. hoolahoop

    I hate to see overpaid athletes baby themselves with injuries and we’ve seen it all across the sports spectrum.
    That being said, considering the circumstances, Jeremy Lin would be insane to rush himself back for the next game.
    I don’t know what people on this board are smoking, but I want some.
    The knicks have zero, ZERO, LESS THAN ZERO chance of winning this series.

  12. Spree8nyk8

    The Heat constantly doubled Lin in that game, they were able to do that because at that point Lin was pretty much the whole team and all we did was pick and roll even when it was obvious that it wasn’t working. We don’t have the same coach, same approach and Melo isn’t the same for damn sure. If the Heat double Lin all day like that then Melo is gonna go nuts on them. If you told me that the heat would 100% play Lin the same way they did last time I would DEFINITELY want him to play simply because the rest of the team would get better looks.

    And you definitely are saying the game doesn’t matter. Every game we play from now until the season ends matters. If we don’t have 15 guys that believe that then we need to be getting rid of players until we have 15 guys that do believe that.

  13. Spree8nyk8

    hoolahoop:
    I hate to see overpaid athletes baby themselves with injuries and we’ve seen it all across the sports spectrum.
    That being said, considering the circumstances, Jeremy Lin would be insane to rush himself back for the next game.
    I don’t know what people on this board are smoking, but I want some.
    The knicks have zero, ZERO, LESS THANZERO chance of winning this series.

    THEN WHY SHOULD WE PLAY THE GAME? If we have “less than zero” chance of winning why did we play (AND WIN) game 4? Why not just call the NBA and say we just don’t see the point?

  14. Spree8nyk8

    This whole conversation makes me sick to my stomach. Great teams “leave it on the court”. But our team should “save it for next season”. FYI “next season” never actually comes, it’s always in the future.

  15. Will the Thrill

    Obviously the game matters, but it’s just that we have such a low chance of actually advancing and I’m not sure Lin would increase our chances. Do you really think the doctors think Lin is good to go and he won’t play because he is afraid of re-injury?

    Spree8nyk8: If we don’t have 15 guys that believe that then we need to be getting rid of players until we have 15 guys that do believe that.

  16. Robert Silverman Post author

    Spree8nyk8: THEN WHY SHOULD WE PLAY THE GAME?If we have “less than zero” chance of winning why did we play (AND WIN) game 4?Why not just call the NBA and say we just don’t see the point?

    Instead of making straw man arguments, how about we try and win with the players who give us the best shot. A hobbled/rusty Lin isn’t one of them.

  17. Spree8nyk8

    It’s not a strawman argument to say that Lin right now at this moment can be more effective than Toney Douglas or Mike Bibby. If you disagree with that then you just disagree. My point here has been that instead of debating on whether or not Lin can be more effective than one of those two, people are instead arguing that “we have no chance so why bother”. It’s a loser mentality. And it’s a good part of why it took us 11 years to win a playoff game.

  18. Spree8nyk8

    Will the Thrill:
    Do you really think the doctors think Lin is good to go and he won’t play because he is afraid of re-injury?

    I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say “have fun”. Old ass grant hill had the same surgery for the same injury and came back 4 weeks later to play in regular season games just trying to make the playoffs. He didn’t get hurt btw. But hey fuck it, the last thing we should do is try. And god forbid we actually did make it to game 6 or 7, and maybe that 10-15 minutes of burn Lin got actually put him in position to actually make a difference in one of those games by allowing him to shake some rust, or get some playoff experience. Bottom line here is you have 1 reason why he shouldn’t play and I have about 100 reasons that he should. (unless as I said before you really think that TD or MB are simply more effective, then you would have 2 reasons).

  19. Will the Thrill

    I applaud your optimism, but even wit Lin at 100% I didn’t think we had a good chance this series. Now that it is nearly over, in Miami, with Lin being far less than 100%, I just don’t see a good reason for him to risk his health in order to play 15-20 minutes. I believe that if we win, it won’t be because of Lin.

    Spree8nyk8: people are instead arguing that “we have no chance so why bother”. It’s a loser mentality. And it’s a good part of why it took us 11 years to win a playoff game.

  20. Robert Silverman Post author

    Spree8nyk8:
    It’s not a strawman argument to say that Lin right now at this moment can be more effective than Toney Douglas or Mike Bibby.If you disagree with that then you just disagree.My point here has been that instead of debating on whether or not Lin can be more effective than one of those two, people are instead arguing that “we have no chance so why bother”.It’s a loser mentality.And it’s a good part of why it took us 11 years to win a playoff game.

    The straw man argument you make is, “Not playing Lin = Giving up/conceding victory.” According to the Doctors, the coaching staff, and the player, he’s not healthy enough to contribute. You think he is and either the player or the team is holding him back because they lack intestinal fortitude I’m sure the hours you’ve spent watching Lin at practice led to that conclusion. Otherwise, you just WANT Lin to play — which I get, believe me. But it doesn’t make it true

  21. BigBlueAL

    I dunno man, after seeing Ewing go thru what he did during the 1998-2000 playoffs I cant ever question an athlete’s pain threshold. Im pretty sure Lin would play if he physically could.

  22. Will the Thrill

    I believe an injured Lin has a far greater chance of hurting the team than Bibby does. Bibby outplayed Davis in this series and I can imagine Lin playing at Davis’s level, or worse depending on how healthy he is. If he is 100% or near it, I don’t have a problem with him playing because he would be a major upgrade and give us a better chance to win.

    Will the Thrill: Bottom line here is you have 1 reason why he shouldn’t play and I have about 100 reasons that he should. (unless as I said before you really think that TD or MB are simply more effective, then you would have 2 reasons).

  23. Robert Silverman Post author

    Spree8nyk8:
    It’s a loser mentality.And it’s a good part of why it took us 11 years to win a playoff game.

    Right. The “mentality” is what’s been holding this team back the last 11 seasons. Not the awful trades, botched draft picks, nightmarish handling of the cap, 1st rounders given away like candy and Isiah Thomas.

    All the Knicks needed was the right mindset! Glad that’s cleared up…

  24. BigBlueAL

    Robert Silverman: Right. The “mentality” is what’s been holding this team back the last 11 seasons. Not the awful trades, botched draft picks, nightmarish handling of the cap, 1st rounders given away like candy and Isiah Thomas.

    All the Knicks needed was the right mindset! Glad that’s cleared up…

    Judging by your avatar you are clearly biased when it comes to this debate :-)

  25. 2FOR18

    I bet if the Knicks win Wed. then Lin will play in game 6. Unless he is in pain rather than discomfort, I don’t know how someone so competitive could pass up the chance to play in what would be an off the charts insane, blood thirsty Garden crowd.

  26. Spree8nyk8

    See Robert, last time we had a discussion about medical issues I owned you there too. I told you that I have 15 years of experience, and you mocked me and said “you don’t know, you haven’t seen the patient” as if I can’t simply rely on experience and still make an informed judgement. You were dead wrong about tyson and never owned up to it, so if you were wrong here I wouldn’t expect you to own that either. But! I have already said that IF HE ISN’T ABLE TO GO, THEN HE SHOULD NOT GO (caps to improve reading comprehension). That is not what this argument is at all about, that is what you are twisting it into. The given is supposed to be “if Lin is able to play, should he?” And you guys are arguing that it isn’t worth it and I think that is pathetic.

    So if you really want to argue with me about medical issues it’s cool, just go to nursing school, then work in the field for 15 years and we can go at it on a level playing field. That way YOU can make a “rational, non-emotion based decision”.

  27. StatsTeacher

    I really want to see Lin play, probably more than anyone else, I used to tune in GS games half way through the 4th qtr. waiting for garbage time so he would play (and he always played better than Curry anyway, I am so sick of GS b-ball!!!!) — Lin wasn’t real effective because GS had no big men to run the pnr.

    Anyway, he said he wants to play but he is not ready. Game by game, hell he may defy odds and if we pull a miracle in Miami, play in Game 6, which would be wild, MSG would explode.

  28. Robert Silverman Post author

    Spree8nyk8:
    See Robert, last time we had a discussion about medical issues I owned you there too.I told you that I have 15 years of experience, and you mocked me and said “you don’t know, you haven’t seen the patient” as if I can’t simply rely on experience and still make an informed judgement.You were dead wrong about tyson and never owned up to it, so if you were wrong here I wouldn’t expect you to own that either.But!I have already said that IF HE ISN’T ABLE TO GO, THEN HE SHOULD NOT GO (caps to improve reading comprehension).That is not what this argument is at all about, that is what you are twisting it into.The given is supposed to be “if Lin is able to play, should he?”And you guys are arguing that it isn’t worth it and I think that is pathetic.

    So if you really want to argue with me about medical issues it’s cool, just go to nursing school, then work in the field for 15 years and we can go at it on a level playing field.That way YOU can make a “rational, non-emotion based decision”.

    You were guessing then and you’re guessing now. That was my point. I don’t know Lin’s condition and neither do you.

  29. Spree8nyk8

    You guys are under some misguided impression that his knee right now is so brittle that he is “likely” to re-injure it. If that were the case he would not have been cleared to practice. The injury has been repaired and is healing. If he has reached a point where the medical experts in charge of his care are clearing him to play then he should absolutely play.

  30. BigBlueAL

    I believe Beck tweeted a couple of days ago that Lin wasnt even cleared yet for full 5-on-5 contact practice. Dunno if that has changed recently though.

  31. Spree8nyk8

    Robert Silverman: You were guessing then and you’re guessing now. That was my point. I don’t know Lin’s condition and neither do you.

    I was guessing about Tyson, it just happens to be that I was making an educated guess based on years and years of experience. You were making an assumption based on ZERO experience. Was I wrong? Did I somehow say something that did not come to fruition there? Why is it so hard for you to admit that I was right? I mean it’s not like you are able to say that I don’t know what I’m talking about because I said somethings that turned out to be incorrect. You emphatically said that he would not be able to play. You were wrong. I’ve spent years working in orthopedics. I am more than capable of making an educated guess here.

  32. Robert Silverman Post author

    Spree8nyk8: Jesus Christ so I typo’d something and that negates my experience?

    You’re lying. Again. My argument about Chandler was that we had no idea whether he’d play. You claimed you knew that he would, not that you were making an educated guess, but that you knew because of your years of experience even though NBA teams rarely give out the full information w/r/t injury. You never said, “I’m making an educated guess.” Stop changing your story and declaring victory.

  33. PrecociousNeophyte

    Usually just a reader/lurker but all this Lin talked has really bothered me. I would expect the intellectual laziness from Frank Isola but I am really surprised by some of the comments here.

    Spree, I’m sorry but someone with “15 years of medical experience” should know that “meniscus surgery” is a catch-all phrase with essentially zero utility. The severity of the injury and the type of surgery required varies significantly from person to person. We are talking about a spectrum in which some patients walk out of surgery and recover in a week or so to being on crutches for 6 weeks before the real recovery can even begin.

    You are the one that said above that you’re tired of people comparing injuries are completely different. Yet, you compared Lin to Grant Hill because they both had “meniscus surgery.” You should know the injury and surgery each player had is very different despite them both being meniscus injuries.

    Great blog everyone, btw.

  34. Brian Cronin

    Kobe made a three with Gallo DRAPED all over him! Wow! Then he missed and Harrington was fouled. Harrington went 1 for 2, so the Lakers are down three with 29.6 seconds left. What a comeback by the Lakers.

  35. Brian Cronin

    Kobe, I get that you’re hot, but come on man, he took a terrible three and missed (yes it just barely missed but still). Lawson shooting free throws up three. 19.2 seconds left.

  36. Brian Cronin

    Lawson made one of two. Man, the Nuggets really do play terribly at the end of games. I’d feel extremely comfortable fouling them at the end of close games, since they seem bound to miss at least one.

  37. Spree8nyk8

    Robert Silverman: You’re lying. Again. My argument about Chandler was that we had no idea whether he’d play. You claimed you knew that he would, not that you were making an educated guess, but that you knew because of your years of experience even though NBA teams rarely give out the full information w/r/t injury. The fact that Tyson was able to play doesn’t prove that you were right.

    Was I right or were you right? Who was right? You said he absolutely would not be able to play in game 2, I said he would be perfectly fine by game 3 (he played in game 2 and said he was 100% going into game 3) So who was right?

  38. Robert Silverman Post author

    PrecociousNeophyte:
    Usually just a reader/lurker but all this Lin talked has really bothered me. I would expect the intellectual laziness from Frank Isola but I am really surprised by some of the comments here.

    Spree, I’m sorry but someone with “15 years of medical experience” should know that “meniscus surgery” is a catch-all phrase with essentially zero utility. The severity of the injury and the type of surgery required varies significantly from person to person. We are talking about a spectrum in which some patients walk out of surgery and recover in a week or so to being on crutches for 6 weeks before the real recovery can even begin.

    You are the one that said above that you’re tired of people comparing injuries are completely different. Yet, you compared Lin to Grant Hill because they both had “meniscus surgery.” You should know the injury and surgery each player had is very different despite them both being meniscus injuries.

    Great blog everyone, btw.

    Ditto

  39. Brian Cronin

    Do you foul here? Lakers have no time outs left. I don’t think I’d foul, not the way that the Nuggets are shooting their free throws.

  40. Brian Cronin

    Lakers actually miss two threes at the end of the game, including one really good look off of an offensive rebound.

    All Game 5s tonight saw the team down 3-1 win to extend the series. Crazy.

  41. Spree8nyk8

    PrecociousNeophyte:

    Spree, I’m sorry but someone with “15 years of medical experience” should know that “meniscus surgery” is a catch-all phrase with essentially zero utility. The severity of the injury and the type of surgery required varies significantly from person to person. We are talking about a spectrum in which some patients walk out of surgery and recover in a week or so to being on crutches for 6 weeks before the real recovery can even begin.

    You are the one that said above that you’re tired of people comparing injuries are completely different. Yet, you compared Lin to Grant Hill because they both had “meniscus surgery.” You should know the injury and surgery each player had is very different despite them both being meniscus injuries.

    You aren’t quite listening to what I’m saying here. I am not saying Lin is healed, I also am not saying he is cleared to play. I was not saying that because Hill was ready to play in 4 weeks that Lin should be ready to play either. What I am saying is that if he is cleared to play that he should. The docs and Lin himself are the only people that know. My point was that keeping him out “so he doesn’t get hurt” is fairly dumb. Any player can get hurt, and once Lin is healed he is not going to be overly fragile. So if he can play he should. I just personally think that people here are under the impression that he will be much more fragile than he actually will be. It’s a very common misconception

  42. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    Lakers actually miss two threes at the end of the game, including one really good look off of an offensive rebound.

    All Game 5s tonight saw the team down 3-1 win to extend the series. Crazy.

    Forgot about the Magic. 3 out of 4 aint bad though. Maybe the Knicks gained some inspiration from the Nuggets tonight lol

  43. Brian Cronin

    “You have had an uneventful career so far, JaVele….”

    How the hell do you open your question with something like that to a player?

  44. Spree8nyk8

    My comparison to Hill was to point out that people were saying that Lin shouldn’t play because it’s unlikely that the Knicks can win the series. And Hill came back to play ahead of schedule in the regular season. Not merely because they had similar injuries.

  45. Brian Cronin

    D’oh! I did forget about the Magic! Yeah, 3/4 ain’t bad! :)

    And definitely, let’s hope the Knicks take some inspiration from the Nuggets (the only team playing on the road for Game 5).

  46. Spree8nyk8

    Brian Cronin:
    D’oh! I did forget about the Magic! Yeah, 3/4 ain’t bad! :)

    And definitely, let’s hope the Knicks take some inspiration from the Nuggets (the only team playing on the road for Game 5).

    Nah these games don’t matter, we can’t win, there is no point…..

  47. Brian Cronin

    For the record, I’m not in the “Lin shouldn’t play because it is an unimportant game” camp. I am in the “Lin shouldn’t play if Lin doesn’t think he is ready to play” camp. Lin and the training staff say he is not ready, so I’m deferring to their judgment on this. It is his body. It is not like Jeremy Lin wouldn’t be thrilled to play Game 5. If he says he can’t go, I believe him.

  48. Spree8nyk8

    Brian Cronin:
    For the record, I’m not in the “Lin shouldn’t play because it is an unimportant game” camp. I am in the “Lin shouldn’t play if Lin doesn’t think he is ready to play” camp. Lin and the training staff say he is not ready, so I’m deferring to their judgment on this. It is his body. It is not like Jeremy Lin wouldn’t be thrilled to play Game 5. If he says he can’t go, I believe him.

    I am in that camp as well, but that is not the basis of the discussion. The discussion had been based on whether or not he should play if he were cleared to do so.

    I don’t think there is anyone here saying he should play even if he isn’t cleared. Obviously that would be stupid.

  49. PrecociousNeophyte

    Spree8nyk8: I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say “have fun”. Old ass grant hill had the same surgery for the same injury and came back 4 weeks later to play in regular season games just trying to make the playoffs.He didn’t get hurt btw.But hey fuck it, the last thing we should do is try.And god forbid we actually did make it to game 6 or 7, and maybe that 10-15 minutes of burn Lin got actually put him in position to actually make a difference in one of those games by allowing him to shake some rust, or get some playoff experience.Bottom line here is you have 1 reason why he shouldn’t play and I have about 100 reasons that he should.(unless as I said before you really think that TD or MB are simply more effective, then you would have 2 reasons).

    Spree

    You may be trying to convey those points but this above post seems pretty clear to me.

    Additionally, you talk about Grant Hill coming back ahead of schedule, but you should know that recovery schedules reported before the meniscus surgery actually takes place are extremely speculatively. The doctor can’t know for sure until they get a look at the meniscus during surgery.

    Hill’s surgery showed that the injury was not as severe as the doctors anticipated.

  50. Spree8nyk8

    PrecociousNeophyte: Spree

    You may be trying to convey those points but this above post seems pretty clear to me.

    Additionally, you talk about Grant Hill coming back ahead of schedule, but you should know that recovery schedules reported before the meniscus surgery actually takes place are extremely speculatively. The doctor can’t know for sure until they get a look at the meniscus during surgery.

    Hill’s surgery showed that the injury was not as severe as the doctors anticipated.

    Well if it’s clear to you, how are you missing the fact that I’m pointing out that he returned to play in regular season games just trying to make the playoffs? I’m also missing the point where I ever said that he should play before being cleared? I’ve said NUMEROUS times that he should only play if he’s cleared. I point to Grant Hill because his injury was similar and he came back ahead of schedule to play in games that were less meaningful than this. It’s not to say Grant Hill did it so therefore Lin should also. It’s to say Grant Hill had a similar injury, got cleared to play, came back to play, and he was fine.

  51. sidestep

    It seems really odd to me that when other players are injured, their injury or pain threshold isn’t questioned, but with Lin, there are all these people who insist he’s babying himself in a selfish way instead of looking out for the team. It’s an absurd double standard based on both speculation and ignoring what is actually known about Lin. First, it’s premised on so much speculation about the state of Lin’s recovery, when no one actually has anything knows any more than the scant info in the public domain. Secondly, if there is anything we do know about this kid, it’s that he’s fearless and will sacrifice his body and do whatever it takes, and he never allows himself excuses even when they are readily available (eg, not playing well after doing back-to-back-to-back games). Lin got hammered by opponents in the paint and still continued to drive in for further punishment, and people are doubting his pain threshold and saying he’s a baby now? Are you kidding me?

  52. Spree8nyk8

    I don’t think anyone is saying he’s a baby. If they are I haven’t read it.

  53. Spree8nyk8

    Robert Silverman: You’re lying. Again. My argument about Chandler was that we had no idea whether he’d play. You claimed you knew that he would, not that you were making an educated guess, but that you knew because of your years of experience even though NBA teams rarely give out the full information w/r/t injury. You never said, “I’m making an educated guess.” Stop changing your story and declaring victory.

    If you say “i’m basing this on years of experience”. That is the same exact thing as saying “i’m making an educated guess”. Back when I said that I based it on the symptoms that he was having and the treatment that they were using. It wasn’t even much of a reach. I was fairly surprised that you felt like it was so remote that Tyson would play.

  54. lamp

    Yes, Hill returned from surgery in 2 weeks time, but after playing 25 mins in Houston game on 13/4, he played a grand total of 11 mins in subsequent 7 games. Considering Suns was fighting for a playoff spot at that time, Hill’s knee must be really bugging him or else he wouldn’t sit ….

    Btw, Chris Paul, who received menisus surgery in 2010, has sidelined for nearly 8 weeks……

    Every surgery is different. Everyone heals at a different speed. But even speaking by examples, Lin still on his way to full recovery after 5.5 weeks is pretty normal. And if he is not 100% & cannot contribute much, why bother to throw him on the court?

  55. er

    shout out to gallo shooting an amazing 7% from three in this series….didnt one of his previous coaches say he was the best three point shooter he had ever seen?

  56. Robert Silverman Post author

    Spree8nyk8: I don’t think anyone is saying he’s a baby. If they are I haven’t read it.

    You did. You said, “I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say “have fun”, and “If you are on the Knicks it’s okay to…sit out when it would be possible to play bc you are on a minimum contract.”

    That seems to be an implication on your part that Lin is babying his injury. Granted, you’ve also said that if the Doctor’s say he can’t go, he shouldn’t. But those first two statements contradict the third.

  57. Spree8nyk8

    Not saying that Lin is healed (for the 14th time). I’m saying if he’s cleared and feels like he can play then he should.

    FYI 85% Lin is like 243% toney douglas.

  58. 2FOR18

    er:
    shout out to gallo shooting an amazing 7% from three in this series….didnt one of his previous coaches say he was the best three point shooter he had ever seen?

    Hmm, this seems suspicious. But I will keep my conspiracy theories to myself :)

  59. sidestep

    Spree8nyk8:
    See Robert, last time we had a discussion about medical issues I owned you there too.I told you that I have 15 years of experience, and you mocked me and said “you don’t know, you haven’t seen the patient” as if I can’t simply rely on experience and still make an informed judgement.You were dead wrong about tyson and never owned up to it, so if you were wrong here I wouldn’t expect you to own that either…

    So if you really want to argue with me about medical issues it’s cool, just go to nursing school, then work in the field for 15 years and we can go at it on a level playing field.That way YOU can make a “rational, non-emotion based decision”.

    So 15 years of general medical experience allows you to draw conclusions on a specific patient you’ve never seen in person and have nearly 0 data on? LOL. If that were possible, then all medical cases could be diagnosed without anyone going into the hospital or clinic to be investigated.

    From my own experience going to the hospital for various ailments, my conclusion is that many doctors don’t know what they’re talking about. But luckily I can be diagnosed on the internet by experienced physicians who never have to even see me; science has come a long way.

  60. Robert Silverman Post author

    Spree8nyk8:
    Not saying that Lin is healed (for the 14th time)..I’m saying if he’s cleared and feels like he can play then he should.

    FYI 85% Lin is like 243% toney douglas.

    Yes. You have said that.

    However, when you said: “I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say ‘have fun'”, that’s a different statement

    That’s you, diagnosing him, and saying he’s at a point in his recovery where it’d be okay for him to play

  61. Spree8nyk8

    Robert Silverman: You did. You said, “I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say “have fun”, and “If you are on the Knicks it’s okay to…sit out when it would be possible to play bc you are on a minimum contract.”

    That seems to be an implication on your part that Lin is babying his injury. Granted, you’ve also said that if the Doctor’s say he can’t go, he shouldn’t. But those first two statements contradict the third.

    I said that if he is cleared and he is able to play then he should. This is not a declaration that he should say he can play if he can’t. My point with the rest of the statement was that whether he plays or not should be solely based on whether or not he can. I’m not against him not playing because he’s not ready. I’m against him not playing if the reason is purely because he would be risking hurting himself when he is due for a big pay increase. I’ve never once said that he’s healed and should play game 5. My point of view on this is purely based on him being cleared and relatively pain free. I do think that he would play if he were ready. I’m just not sure if Woodson would play him. I definitely don’t think he is babying his injury. Maybe I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that this discussion was about whether or not Lin “should” play game 5 and not whether or not he “can” play. I think a lot of you would rather him sit even if he’s capable of playing. THAT is the boat that I’m not in. I am 100% on board with if he can play he should and if he can’t then oh well, he can’t. I’d never suggest for any player to play before he was ready. But please understand that “ready” does not mean 100%. I don’t think any player is 100% at this time of the season. If he were 85% or better I would think he would want to play.

  62. Spree8nyk8

    Robert Silverman: Yes. You have said that.

    However, when you said: “I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say ‘have fun’”, that’s a different statement

    That’s you, diagnosing him, and saying he’s at a point in his recovery where it’d be okay for him to play

    It’s not me diagnosing him though. When you are recovering from surgery like this they have certain benchmarks they want you to reach. When you can do this, then we move onto the next step, and when you can do this, then the next. But you do reach a point where the doc is going to say “activity as tolerated”. That isn’t the doctor saying “he’s ready to play”. That is the doctor saying “if you feel like you can then it’s ok for you to do it.” All I was saying is that he is probably very close to reaching the point where the doctor is going to give him the choice, if he hasn’t already. And just to stress it again, i’m not saying that automatically means he should play. He’ll know if he can or not.

  63. 2FOR18

    By the way, good luck with the program. And you didn’t even mention the travails of being a Knicks fan.

  64. 2FOR18

    Robert,

    Do yourself a favor and look into reading the Matthew Scudder series of books written by Lawrence Block. Just google them if you have a moment. The best 2 imo were 8 Million Ways to Die (where he attends his first AA mtg) and When the Sacred Ginmill Closes

  65. Nick C.

    This is the problem with creative threads based on imaginary conversations you get 75 posts of arguments about imaginary or hypothetical possibilities. Fortunately Brian and BBA broke that up. On the injured dudes playing front. Al Horford played last night tho in all honesty he may have suited up earlier just not while I had the game on.

  66. Frank

    I’m obviously coming to this discussion late, but didn’t Woodson say that both the doctors and Lin are uncomfortable with the health of the knee? As far as I can tell, that means he is not cleared to play 5-on-5 full contact playoff basketball.

    And Spree- if you have 15 years of medical experience, you should know better than most that every case is different, and cobbling together media reports from the Isolas and Bermans of the world does not equal an actual history, physical, and viewing of the imaging. Not to mention even hearing 1 word from the guy who actually did the surgery and knows what it looked like in there.

    Re: the media reports – we’ve seen it 100000000x. These guys all have an agenda except maybe Howard Beck and Alan Hahn. They are all publishing linkbait. Will he? Won’t he? Breathless anticipation!! Click here for more info!!

  67. Spree8nyk8

    Once again the only thing I have said is that if he is cleared to play and feels able, then he should play. I have never said he is healed or cleared. Whether his case is similar or different to anyone else’s case is irrelevant.

  68. soultrane

    Spree8nyk8: I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say ‘have fun’

    “I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say ‘have fun’”

    “I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say ‘have fun’”

    “I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say ‘have fun’”

    “I think that Lin is definitely at a point in his recovery that if he said I wanna play that the docs would say ‘have fun’”

  69. Frank

    Spree8nyk8:
    Once again the only thing I have said is that if he is cleared to play and feels able, then he should play.I have never said he is healed or cleared.Whether his case is similar or different to anyone else’s case is irrelevant.

    Not to beat a dead horse 100000x but this is what you said before:

    Spree8nyk8: Old ass grant hill had the same surgery for the same injury and came back 4 weeks later to play in regular season games just trying to make the playoffs.

    Chances are overwhelmingly high that this was not the same surgery for the same injury. Unless you think this was like an oil change and that every meniscus tear and every meniscus repair is the same. In fact, if I remember correctly, some medical “experts” from ESPN were MORE concerned about this injury because it was chronic which implied some degree of arthritis.

    We were not the ones who used someone else’s injury and recovery timeline as a comparison for when Jeremy should come back – you were. It only became relevant because you suggested it was.

  70. Spree8nyk8

    Holy shit man you guys are taking things out of context and refusing to understand the context it was meant in.

    The comparison to Hill is because he rushed back to play regular season games and people were suggesting that since we are down so far that this game was unimportant.

    And yes I do believe that Lin is far enough along that if he were pain free he could tell the docs and that he would be able to play. I’m not saying that he is pain free though.

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