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Saturday, November 1, 2014

The Official 2006 Knicks Trade Thread

Folks, I’m away on business putting in double digit hour days that is time and culturally unfriendly to watching American sports. I’m upset that the Knicks actually win a game while I’m gone, because who knows when they’ll win again. This when I usually make a joke whether or not the Hawks are coming up on the schedule, but they’ve beaten New York 2 out of 3 tries this year.

In any case, with the trade deadline coming up, I’m opening this thread so you guys can chat about any rumored deals, trades you might make, or the trade deadline of seasons past.

46 comments on “The Official 2006 Knicks Trade Thread

  1. dave crockett

    Okay, I’ll bat leadoff…

    I don’t have a trade proposal but I caught the Detroit deal on the ticker. (Darko and Arroyo for Kelvin Cato’s expiring deal and a first rounder.)

    Even when Dumars having to admit defeat to some extent on Darko he still wins. I don’t know if the first rounder is lottery protected but Detroit is in need of young depth and cap relief.

    We should force Isiah to do a summer internship with Dumars, following him around with a mini-tape recorder and spiral notepad; like that episode of Seinfeld when Kramer had an intern at Kramerica Industries.

  2. Young T

    Funny enough Detroit getting Cato also probably kills any chance (for better or for worse) of Thomas getting Francis as it will be hard to find other Orlando players to match salaries in a Crawford/Hardaway for Francis deal.

    Wonder if Dumars thinks about these things also?

    My prediction is there will be one or two blockbuster trades, the Knicks won’t get any superstars, and as Isiah feels left out he will make some trades that are either mind-bogglingly stupid or simply like swapping one bum for another. I would gladly be proved wrong however.

  3. steve

    as knickerblogger.net’s token seattle resident, i can contribute relevent as well as meaningful factoids.

    nate robinson studied cartooning at UW. He’s really good. Here’s his weblink:

    http://www.natetoons.com/

    He’s got a brain and sick athletic ability. NYK should not trade him.

  4. John

    Sorry, I know that this is supposed to be about trade possibilities, but it seems like now the blame for the Knicks situation has shifted from Marbury to Isiah and now on to Brown. Personally, I can’t understand why LB criticised the NYC media publicly, when all he had to do was wait quietly while Thomas went through the gauntlet. Get ready for another media storm, worse than the one that surrounded Brown at the Finals last year.

    Unfortunately, accoring the the natetoons website, that Nate Robinson is referred to as “the other Nate Robinson at UW”. But for an NBA player that dabbles in art, check this out:
    http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/owlive/img/sep04/mason.one0928_big.jpg

  5. dave crockett

    KB-

    funny you should ask. I penned this e-mail to a buddy of mine this morning after reading Hollinger’s take. (It’s about as close as I come to ranting.)

    This deal is so wrong for so many reasons.

    First, the Knicks should just keep Penny’s deal and let it come off the books. As a matter of principle at this point the team should be saying “we’re just not adding more years of being over the cap, paying the tax.” I could see if the Knicks were contenders but they aren’t one or even two players away from Indiana, much less Detroit…

    Second, Stevie’s a terrible fit on the Knicks–a far better fit for Denver. (Now, rumors of a potential three-way with Denver are more palatable if we get back Earl Watson, but even that deal doesn’t get me excited.) From a pure basketball standpoint, another guy who really needs to dominate the ball to be at his best is precisely what the Knicks don’t need. Stevie’s game has eroded a bit (age? happiness? situation?). So he’s no longer a major improvement over Marbury in any offensive area (neither plays D) but he’s substantially worse in the areas where the Knicks need the most improvement: outside shooting and turnovers. He’s a slightly worse 3 point shooter than Marbury (both sub-30%) and turns the ball over far more often. His two seasons in Orlando have been among his worst in that area. Last year he averaged over 4 TOs per game! This season it’s “down” to 3.4/game.

    Third, we may as well keep Crawford for only a little less production at a lot less money. Adding Francis’s bloated deal means we stay waaaay over the cap at least until ’09. I’m all done with going into offseasons armed with nothing but the MLE. Aside from that, once Marbury returns (along with the addition of Rose) Crawford can go back to where he has the most value; as a point producer off the bench who can run the point in brief stints and on the 2nd unit. I feel for the kid because right now he’s in a position where he cannot excel–running the point full time.

    I’ve spent much of the season defending [against] the anti-Isiah backlash. My thing has been all along that the Knicks situation is different than any other team’s. No team has ever been as capped out AND as devoid of talent as the team Isiah inherited. (Dallas had comparably bad contracts–like Tariq Abdul Wahad’s–but was a conference finals quality club. They could find takers for many of their bad deals and still get quality back.) Isiah only had two directions to choose from: try to compete by swapping one headache for another or bottom out. I personally favored the latter but I understood his choice. No GM in the league gets five plus seasons to turn it around, except maybe in Utah, and that’s what the Knicks were looking at–at least on paper. You could always question the specifics of each of Isiah’s deals along with his propensity to overpay (he didn’t have to give Jerome James the entire MLE). Still 98% of the GMs in the league would have walked the same path under the circumstances.

    BUT, if he pulls the trigger on a Crawford/Robinson (or Lee) for Stevie Franchise deal I’m done defending him. He’ll have confirmed the worst stuff that has been written about him (well, except for the whole “Isiah hates white players” crap), namely that he’s just making deals like some drunk fan that doesn’t have a clue.

    Thoughts?

  6. steve

    woops. looks like i got bad info, and the nate robinson cartoon info was a red herring. sorry all you knickerbloggers.

    also, kevin pelton, are you in seattle?

  7. Gabe Farkas

    My word was “stilt”. As in “Wilt the…”, who is about the only guy who could really help the Knicks now.

    Or maybe Superman.

  8. Marc R

    Dave, you and KB are the most sensible posters on this site, in my opinion, but I part with you when it comes to your zeal for the Knicks to get under the cap.

    As far as I can tell, it’s exceedingly rare for a team to contend for a championship by getting under the cap enough to sign a true premium free agent. The only times I can think of where it has worked has been with Shaq in LA and Nash in Phoenix (though I’m sure I’m missing one or two other examples).

    More commonly, a team gets under the cap only to overspend for a slightly-better-than-average free agent (Joe Johnson, K-Mart, Ron Mercer) or to get left at the altar by free agents who don’t want to sign for a crappy team that is under the cap when they can make more by re-signing with their current team (Kobe and the Clips).

    Frankly, I think the approach Isiah has taken is better than either of those results. He’s overspending for young players entering their prime. The Knicks apparently are in a unique situation as the only team whose owner doesn’t care about paying the luxury tax. We can therefore take the overpaid, but talented and in their prime, players off other teams’ hands so they can get under the cap. That’s one way we were able to get Marbury while he’s pretty clearly still in his prime.

    Not to say that Isiah hasn’t made mistakes. (Duh.) Specifically, there is hardly ever any reason to take on a player who is past his prime with a long contract. Those players are unmovable and valueless. (I’m looking at you Malik and Jerome. K-Mart too in two years.)

    But give Isiah his due. As Dave said, he’s taken an old and hopeless team and made it younger, more exciting, and given us hope. And, frankly, I just couldn’t envision Adam Morrison looking good in an Knicks jersey anyway. It just doesn’t feel right, though I can’t put my finger on it.

    All that said, there’s no point getting Steve Francis. Crawford is just as good and a better fit for the team.

  9. Ben

    I might be the only one but I feel that getting Francis would not be a bad move. If we can get him without giving anything but Crawford, who I like by the way, and Ariza, who I also like, and Penny. I really think we should.

    I think by doing it midseason it gives us a chance to experiment to see if Marbury and Francis can work together. Do I think it will work? Honestly no.

    But Francis even with his contract is much more tradeable than Crawford and I think that we could use him to land someone that will fit well next summer.

  10. Seth

    I can’t believe I forgot to mention this, but when I was at the Knicks-Rockets game I heard the following exchange:

    “Who’s that guy who just fouled Yao?”
    “James”

    “Oh, yeah that kid’s something else- the next Jordan.”
    “No it’s Jerome James.”

    “Oh, not what’s his face?”
    “Lebron. No. Not at all”

  11. KnickerBlogger Post author

    ” As Dave said, he?s taken an old and hopeless team and made it younger, more exciting, and given us hope.”

    I don’t know if there are a lot of people that would associate the New York Knicks with the word “hope”. Unless it’s “I hope the Knicks can win 30 games” or “I hope the Knicks don’t trade for Francis.”

  12. Gabe Farkas

    I want to put a challenge out here to all the other posters. Can you name what one player currently in the league you would like to see on the Knicks the most? In other words, what one player do you think would be most helpful for us (and explain your reasoning behind it)?

  13. Kevin

    The Knicks went from being old, bad and hopelessly capped out to being young, bad, hopelessly capped out and no draft picks.

    Watching the Knicks and looking at the numbers I have a question. Do NBA players really get better? I haven’t really studied this, but when looking at per 40 totals significant real improvement appears rare.

    That’s my problem with the Isiah – yes JC and Q are young, but he’s in his sixth year. Eddie Curry has played a lot, when does he step forward.

    I’m not so sure what it means to get a player for his prime in the NBA. Appropriately, my password is peaks

  14. Young T

    Tim Duncan. Scoring, interior defence, rebounding, experience, success. If we could take any player in the league right now I think it would have to be him.

  15. Ted Nelson

    In terms of the Darko deal:
    I have mixed feelings. Dumars has drafted Mateen Cleaves, Rodney White, and Darko with his only top 15 picks. Plus Darko is 20. At 20 Dirk was shooting 40% in 20 mpg on a team that won 38% of its games.
    The things is, though, that no matter how many draft picks Joe D blows (or whatever missteps he might take) the Pistons will still win because Dumars recognizes that hard-working, intelligent, defensively inclined, selfless basketball players make for a winning team.

    I?m sure it?s been said, but I would compare the approach Dumars has taken in Detoit to the one taken by Billy Beane in Oakland. I have no idea whether Dumars employs advanced statistical analysis in his decision making process (he at least realizes that traditional stats are vastly overrates), but the other skill which set Beane apart was recognizing that what, in the most basic terms, makes a good baseball team is run production and that run production was undervalued around the MLB.
    Similarly, Dumars realized that teamwork and defense are the basic ingredients to a good basketball team, and that players who are strong in these areas are often undervalued in favor of more athletic players with greater individual offensive ability.
    You could argue that the NBA?s salary cap is one reason Dumars has been able to take his team from very good to elite while Beane?s team has actually regressed a little bit as it is perpetually losing players to richer teams.

    Like Dave Crockett I have spent much of the last two years defending Zeke?s strategy for rebuilding the Knicks. And like Dave, I view this trade deadline as a crucial point in Zeke?s reign:
    I always assumed that behind the scenes Zeke realized that defense and un-measurable characteristics like work ethic, intelligence, and everything that Dumars built around are important factors in building a team. After all, his ability to recognize what makes a good NBA player in terms of the draft and acquiring Doug Christie was very impressive. So I assumed that once the Knicks had some NBA talent Zeke?s deals would start to move them in this direction.
    A Steve Francis deal, and to a larger extent a Darius Miles deal, would signal to me that none of this was going on behind the scenes and possibly that Isiah Thomas is the Ron Artest of executives (did anyone mentioned Zeke as being on the Artest scale?).

    Here?s what gives me ?hope? in terms of the Knicks:
    They take a Joe D approach and build with Michael Curry?s and Chucky Atkins? alongside the Channing Frye?s and Stephon Marbury?s and Eddy Curry?s. Those three should be plenty of offensive production if surrounded by good defenders and role players.
    And my real hope is that Larry Brown?s love for scrappy underdogs plus Zeke?s eye for talent and love for players who have not yet realized their potential equal one Joe Dumars. Unfortunately I can see D-Miles in a Knicks uni before Feb. 23rd and then Loren Woods getting the entire MLE this offseason: ?hey we didn?t know if Curry?s heart would hold up so we needed a 5.?

    Kevin: Eddy Curry averaged 20.4 P/40 and 8.5 reb/40 coming into this season; Crawford, 17.6 p and 5.5 ast; Q, 18.1 p and 7 reb. I think the improvement the Knicks need to see is in terms of leadership, basketball IQ, and defense. Add some overacheivers to the underacheivers, if you will.

  16. John

    Young T-
    The Ian Thompson article says it all-the Knicks payroll and underachievement is definitely a culture that Dolan has created/allowed. The cost per win stat is funny (ORL 3.9 mil/win, NYK 8.4 mil/win).

  17. Kevin

    Ted,

    Yes I realize that, Curry this year is averaging 21 points/40 and 9.3 rebounds/40 – marginally better Crawford is at 16.8 pts/40 and 4.7 ass/40 – marginally lower. I’ll give Q and injury/personal situation pass.

    I think we agree, what you need isn’t the athletic scorers who will develop, but the guys who will play hard, play defense, move on offense, move the ball around. Isiah doesn’t realize this and all his moves show this.

    My pet theory about how good an NBA team can be (not is, but CAN be) depends on how hard the team’s best player will work and buys into the team concept. Orlando will go nowhere with Francis same for the Knicks and Marbury for their lack of team leadership.

    One player – Duncan is a good choice, I probably pick KG on top of his skills his outward emotion.

  18. Robert Harnick

    The only trade I don’t want to see happen is the Ratliff Miles deal. Why would you trade for Ratliff when you have Frye and Curry already. It would just be another excuse for Brown to play Frye 15 minutes a game.

  19. Gabe Farkas

    Young T – Duncan would be nice. Now, who would you be willing to give up for him (reasonably)? Name your starting 5 after the trade. Now ask yourself if that is really better than what we’ve got.

    Mase – I love Ray Allen. He’s one of my favorite players in the league. But I’ll ask you the same question as above. Who would you reasonably give up? And what would the lineup look like afterwards?

  20. Marc R

    KB, I’ll agree that there’s no hope this year, but next year all of the Knicks’ main players will still be in their 20s (except Marbury, who will be 30) and there’s at least hope that these talented players will have a better record (or at least a better coach).

    Kevin, how can you say that the Knicks have had no draft picks under Isiah? They have 3 rookies this year and 2 first round picks in the 2006 draft. As for prime, not sure how you can say that’s not relevant. Sure, Quentin might not get much better, but Kurt Thomas is in his mid-30s. He’ll be barely mobile next year with a contract that extends for several more seasons. Also, it doesn’t seem wise to give up on Curry already. He’s 22. Imagine if you gave up on T-Mac or Jermaine O’Neal at that age.

  21. Seth

    I’d say Nash, maybe Paul.

    I’ve never loved Nash, but it’s hard to deny that he makes people better. When guys like James Jones and Raja Bell are playing effective minutes for a playoff-bound team, you’ve got to credit Nash with moving the ball effectively. Just look at how bad Richardson is without him. I think Nash would have what it takes to get Crawford, Richardson, Curry, Rose, Ariza, and Frye great looks from their favorite spots. A lack of such is what has troubled me about Marbury.

    Paul looks like he’s developing into a similar brand of player.

  22. dave crockett

    First, let me give out some compliments:

    Gang – civil discourse is a fine thing. That’s worth saying out loud.
    KB – the “hope” line was funny as hell. I had to put my drink down.

    Second, we have a couple of intriguing questions/issues going around. I’ll try to address each really briefly. (I should give up my “Gleeman length” commentary for lent… maybe next year.)

    1. Ted Nelson on Isiah

    We probably aren’t too far off in our perspectives Ted but here’s where I think we differ.

    * I too think cap space can be overrated… if the goal is signing a mega-watt FA. But, what has killed the Knicks is limited flexibility, not money. All the untradeable contracts make it near impossible to execute a simple 1-for-1 deal that adds to the nucleus without wrecking the roster. Example: Earl Watson would really help us with TOs and perimeter defense but getting him is gonna take a roster-wrecking deal that won’t be worth the trouble.

    * True, Penny Hardaway’s contract, whose expiration does not move NY appreciably closer to the cap, has more value as a trade commodity than it does in salary reduction. Yet potentially even more valuable is Penny’s open seat on the bench, which could turn into Mike James for part of the MLE this summer.

    2. What player most helps the Knicks?

    I’m thinking of immediate (and reasonably possible) help here rather than someone different to build around. (Too unrealistic for my taste.) More than anything NY needs improved decision making and defense on the perimeter. Two guys that come to mind immediately are Earl Watson (already mentioned) and Raja Bell. Both can defend multiple positions.

  23. jeremy

    Put Nash on the Knicks and yes, they could win 50. More likely 40. Look at what Paul has done for the Hornets. Kidd for the Nets, pre-RJ turning into an all-star.

    On Isiah: its time to question whether the new team’s youth is ever going to translate into wins. Given the dire need for hope amongst Knick fans, there is a tendency to overestimate the youth movement. Lee, Frye, Robinson, Ariza. They’ve all shown flashes. So did Sweetney. Remember John Wallace? Players usually peak in their 2nd or 3rd year, so the jury is still out. However, I would put forth that it is highly unlikely we ever hear any of the current young Knicks being mentioned as a potential all-star. Frye? He’s a nice 6th man on a championship team. A dominant force? unlikely.

    Realistically, I’d take the Bobcats or the Hawks roster over the Knicks in a minute. And i completely disagree that you cant rebuild through free agency. The Knicks are the most attractive team in the league for most free agents, given their history, their arena, and their city. A title before 2010 is absolutely impossible – why not start preparing to get under the cap?

  24. Robert Harnick

    Maybe the Knicks youth movement is overrated but Frye a nice 6th man on a championship team? You don’t think he’ll be better than Mark Ivaroni or Kurt Rambis? I think he will be quite a bit better than that. Lee and Robinson are certainly bench players on a championship team as for Ariza I have serious doubts about him at this time. What Curry isn’t part of the youth movement?

  25. booth52

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE give us an analysis of this Francis trade from a knicks fan perspective! Salary cap hell to infinity and beyond, 2 pg/sg’s at 40M, 2 sg’s at 18M in Q & Jamal… no 1st round draft picks. My condolences to knicks fans.

  26. Paycheck

    This from another (non-sports-related) board, from a good friend and die-hard knick fan:

    “in one of my fantasy bball leagues three guys immediately changed their team names to “ex-knickfan,” “ex-knickfan #2,” and “fuck the knicks.” i can’t remember any trade in recent memory that has had such an immediate and obvious adverse effect on its team’s fan base. the incompetence at work here is shocking. and of course it all starts with james “blank check” dolan, who’s letting the wheels come off the wagon …. and actually seems to be encouraging it.”

  27. LONG-Suffering Knicks Fan

    The Knicks need defense, they need toughness – so they trade for a SMALL 2-guard?? Okay, so now they’ll lose games 120-110. Great …

    Look, I respect Steve Francis’s offensive skills, but the next time he guards somebody will be the first time. Plus, this blows the salary cap to hell and gone, so it puts real change even FURTHER off into the future.

    It’s getting more and more clear to me: Isiah Thomas needs to go – he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

  28. Sammy

    Hi!
    I am a diehard knick fan and i’m blogging to somehow convey a message to knicks management. I just moved to paris and I have no way of sending my advice. So if anyway, anybody can send this message to knicks management.
    My cousin is assistant to the Vice president of basketball operations at the Oklahoma city/New Orleans Hornets. He just informed me that one of the most talented rookie swingmen last season J.R. Smith is on the trading block because byron scott doesnt like the kid. They are willing to trade for any big man who plays the low post.
    This kid is ultratalented, but his stats dont jump out at you, because he got no playing time.

    So i dont know how good this can do but this is the best i can do

  29. Somethings Gotta Give

    So, here’s the thing: has there been a worse idea than Francis-Starbury since they made Tango & Cash? They may win 3 more games in the 2nd half with Francis. Is this worth it? I don’t think so. This is just another unmoveable asset. Even if they make another trade for a K-Mart type player at best this becomes a 42-40 team. At best. Can someone help me understand this? Is that really the plan? Are the knicks just acquiring based on marginal talent improvements or is there a plan to build a certain type of team? The Lakers were supposed to be unbeatable with Payton, Malone, Kobe, and Shaq and they couldn’t pull it off. And don’t ge me started on getting KG. I love the guy and would love to have him in NYC, but he’ll have to play point guard in order to ever see the ball.

  30. Paul Hopkinson

    So….where has Isiah gone wrong?

    i would say his deadline deals, perhaps a sign of him buckling under the relentless pressure of the crushing NY media to make a move that makes splashy headlines on the back pages.

    Let’s transport ourselves to an alternate universe for a moment, shall we? And pretend that this years two deadline deals & last year’s two deadline deals never happened. Along with that straight-up idiotic Jerome James signing, which i am convinced was Isiah playing “behind the scenes politics” to gain sway with agents.

    So….two promising rookies (DLee & N8) are gone. We’re left with 2nd rounder swingman Dijon Thompson out of UCLA instead (oddly enough still backing up former UCLA forward Trevor Ariza).

    We have eliminated some of the payroll bloat, though. James’ considerable bloat was never here, while Penny & ADavis’s expiring contracts will be allowed to expire as they play out the string in a NY uniform (or rehabbing down south, like Penny).

    Incoming franchise center Eddy Curry gets to play alongside longtime rugged rebounder/defender Kurt Thomas, with Nazr Mohammed and rookie Channing Frye completing a deep and talented power rotation. Nazr will have some impressive nights filling in for an injured and/or foul-prone Curry, plus he is in the final year of his contract and is driven to play well to showcase himself for a nice FA contract in the summer of ’06. Kurt can teach “the rook” Frye how to spread the floor offensively and pack it in defensively. Veterans Antonio Davis & Vin Baker can keep youngster Jackie Butler company on the end of the bench.

    Small forward is a huge problem coming into this season. Last year’s rookie flash Trevor Ariza gets the first crack at the starting position, while Qyntel Woods hounds him for playing time (perhaps that analogy was barking up the wrong tree). Veteran Penny Hardaway would have a legit opportunity in this universe of playing – even starting – and thus earning some of his max contract money in his final season.

    Marbury and Crawford start in the razor-thin backcourt. Knicks would have two backup point guards in Jamison Brewer & Moochie Norris. Crawford’s backup would probably be whoever didn’t play among Qyntel & Penny up front, although perhaps rookie Dijon Thompson could get a look. Or else a veteran free agent could be had for a minimum deal (the return of Spree???)

    Four players (Penny, ADavis, Nazr Mohammed & Moochie Norris) would have expiring contracts this season, and we would keep all four and take them off the books this year.

    i reckon this squad wouldn’t do any worse than the “real” Knicks i see today. These Knicks would head into this summer with only three players under significant long term contracts (Marbury, Crawford & Curry). The ’06-07 Knicks would still have Houston, Shamderson, etc coming off the books, along with 33-year old Kurt Thomas.

    These Knicks would also have significantly less assets to use in trades, so improvement would have to come via the draft. These Knicks would have their 1st round pick this season to fill in the gaping hole at small forward, likely with Gonzaga forward Adam Morrison.

    Thus, in this scenario, the ’06-07 Knicks would feature Curry/Frye/Morrison/Crawford/Starbury, with Kurt Thomas, Trevor Ariza, Qyntel Woods & Jackie Butler off the bench.

    Rather have this than what we now face?

  31. greedy

    one flaw dude, you cant keep curry and the 2006 first round pick.

    but you never know, maybe some team will want our 2 picks and d lee for a high first rounder.

  32. Paul Hopkinson

    duh – you’re right, greedy….that’s what i get for not doublechecking such a long, rambling post! =)

    i wonder if Isiah employs a similar tactic when evaluating trades?

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