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Saturday, November 22, 2014

T-Mac Trades That Could Help New York

With trade rumors circulating, I decided to look at some of the possibilities of a three way T-Mac deal. From the Knicks perspective, it’s obvious that they want to shed either Jeffries or Curry, and rumors are that they covet McGrady. It’s unlikely that the Knicks are going to make the playoffs, but the Rockets are on the cusp, and they’re interested in getting something tangible for their oft-injured former All Star. Meanwhile the Wizards are looking to salvage something from their disasterous season, most likely in the form of cap relief and young talent.

With that in mind there are a few possibilities. The simplest one is this:

New York gets:
McGrady GF

Washington gets:
Harrington PF
Mobley SF
HOU 1st round pick (protected)

Houston Gets:
Butler SG
Haywood C
Jeffries F

Basically the Knicks unload Jeffries and get McGrady as a last ditch effort to make the postseason. Meanwhile the Wizards clear Butler’s salary off their cap and get a draft pick in return. The Rockets eat some salary, but get three players that will aid them reach the postseason. Houston can protect that draft pick in case they slip in the standing.

There are a few ways to work this deal if parties aren’t interested in certain aspects of it. For instance New York has reiterated that they would not trade Cuttino Mobley, so they can do the deal with Darko Milicic instead. Additionally the Knicks can ask for seldom used PG Mike James as well. What if the Rockets don’t want Jared Jeffries, but the Knicks are still enamored with T-Mac? They could send Nate Robinson to Houston, but not Washington

Of course just because this was reported in the news doesn’t mean that these teams are even discussing such a swap. But if the teams are interested in such a deal, it shouldn’t be too complicated for them to work something out. Personally I’m not thrilled with acquiring McGrady, since I don’t see him helping the team much unless if his arrival pushes Chris Duhon to the bench. However if the Knicks are able to unload Jeffries in a package, then it’s a no brainer as long as New York doesn’t give up any youngsters or draft picks. If either team requires any of Chandler, Gallinari, Hill, Douglas, or a draft pick to make it work, then New York should walk away from the table.

76 comments on “T-Mac Trades That Could Help New York

  1. Thomas B.

    Agreed. JJ has some value and Washington may bring him back particularly if they move Hawyood out. Or as you offer, Houston might need JJ. Actually Hawyood and JJ up front is pretty good way to (try) and defend the Lakers’ front line.

  2. Caleb

    Not that the Knickerblogger board needs convincing, but for the record it’s worth saying that McGrady is irrelevant – he might or might not make a small difference this year but he’s not going to be here next year; we’re not about to trade a future asset to get him.

    For Knicks, any trade — Houston or not — has 1 of 2 goals: dump Jeffries contract, or add an asset (most likely, a pick).

    Houston won’t take Jeffries’ contract because they are primed to make a max FA offer and won’t spare the cap space (unless we’re offering David Lee, maybe). Considering they already have Battier, Scola and Hayes, he’s not even a minor defensive upgrade for them.

    BUT Houston might be willing to give up a spare pick.

    I just suggested this as part of a long entry, but I’ll nominate it here as well…

    Chandler or Gallo + Jeffries to the Clips for Marcus Camby — flip Camby + Hughes to Houston for McGrady and a 1st.

    ##

    With Chandler in there, it’s a no-brainer, IMO. With Gallo – it’s a close call. It’s basically trading Gallo for $9m in cap space (to help sign LeBron, or get a sidekick) plus a late first-rounder.

  3. TheRooster8

    An important part of all these deals is that Donnie would like to get rid of the potential “negative” influences in the locker room. Certain players (Hughes, Harrington, NateRob) are not going to like it when MDA flips the switch and starts giving serious minutes to the young guys. Since all three are gone after this year, why not try to move them without adding salary? If McGrady has anything left, thats great. If he doesn’t, at least he won’t be screaming at D’Antoni (Nate) or taking PT away from Hill.

    And lets not kid ourselves….on any other team, JJ is a 15-20min a night bench player, not the lynch pin of a defense.

  4. mase

    “For Knicks, any trade — Houston or not — has 1 of 2 goals: dump Jeffries contract, or add an asset (most likely, a pick). ”

    not at the expense of gallo or Will… walsh would be a fool to do that!

  5. TDM

    Houston has to do something with McGrady. They are currently the 9th seed in the West – 2 games behind the 8th seed. Even if they do sneak into the playoffs, they would be severly undersized against the Lakers. They have no depth across the board, but most glaringly in the front court. Houston isn’t going to play McGrady, which causes me some concern as a Knick’s fan, however they can get some useful players in exchange for him. Personally, I like the trade Mike’s proposed where the Knicks get both McGrady and Mike James. The Knicks get (hopefully) a scorer and a point guard to try and make a playoff run. Houston gets front court depth and another scorer (Haywood and Butler could actually start for Houston). And, Washington gets to clean house and get rid of Butler’s contract clearing an additional 10M in cap space.

    My only reluctance is that I would like to see Nate go. As talented as he is, he is more trouble than he is worth – both on and off the court.

    Does anyone know what other offers Houston has received? It would seem that there are only a few teams out there that could absorb McGrady’s 23M contract.

  6. TDM

    One other thought with regard to Houston taking back Jeffries – 2010 is not the off-season they should be concerned about. 2011 is, when Yao deals expires. The only player that they need to re-sign this off-season is Scola. By my (ahem) analysis, it looks like Houston has 36M in expiring deals – 23 of which is McGrady. Even if they have to take back Jeffries to get rid of McGrady and obtain 2 potential starters, they will still have over 30M in expiring deals which would put them under the cap.

  7. Caleb

    The question should be… is Gallo or Nate or Chandler worth Player X that you can sign with $8-10 million in cap space?

    Nate – obviously. Especially considering we know the Knicks are going to let him walk for nothing.

    Chandler – obviously, IMO.

    Gallo – hate to lose the upside, but on average, I don’t think he’ll be worth that much. Especially since even $2-3 million could make the difference between signing David Lee or not. (assuming LeBron or another max guy is willing to come).

    More generally – you can always try and clear that extra $2-3 million this summer, swapping Jeffries for a player who makes $2 million less, with extra parts (like, say, Douglas) thrown in for a salary match. But I wouldn’t count on it.

  8. Caleb

    If Houston does nothing at the trade deadline, they’ll have about $40 million in salary committed next season — that should be $12-15 million in cap room. Or, they could have Jared Jeffries + $5-8 million.

    By 2011-2012, they have nothing locked in except Trevor Ariza and Aaron Brooks (assuming they pick up Brooks’ option).

    http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston.htm

  9. mase

    Marc Stein reporting trade rumor:

    Hou gets: Butler, Blatche, Mobley

    NYK get:TMac, Miller, James, Stevenson

    Wsh gets :Harrington, Hughes, Darko, BCook.

  10. Frank

    If Dolan will allow it, the Knicks should flex their financial muscle in order to make this thing work.

    I like the trade above for all teams involved. Clearly Washington wants to blow the team up and start over — they would get $19M in expiring contracts (and save $6-7M on Mobley’s contract) + get a 1st round pick, while saving the contract money on 2 players that are not going to be part of the future there.

    Houston is in a tougher spot in terms of $$ — they are taking on a lot of guaranteed money. I would even sweeten the pot by giving them $3M of Dolan’s cash and offering to take Brian Cook’s 3.5M deal (credit to Chris Sheridan) which expires this year as well. That would mean Houston is sending out $26.3M in salaries and receiving back $22.3M (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yzj4pz4) – so Houston sheds a net ~$4M in salary for this year, thereby getting under the tax line which would net them another $4M in distributions (according to Sheridan’s math), + $3M more in Cablevision-cash.

    It would cost the Knicks a pretty penny though — but I’m more than happy to spend Duck Folan’s cash.

  11. Frank

    “Marc Stein reporting trade rumor:

    Hou gets: Butler, Blatche, Mobley

    NYK get:TMac, Miller, James, Stevenson

    Wsh gets :Harrington, Hughes, Darko, BCook.”

    Wow – I do that deal 2 seconds ago. All 4 of the contracts coming to us are expiring, no?

  12. Caleb

    Stein’s trade (or whoever cooked it up) is just shuffling chairs on the Titanic. I’d rather pick up ANY asset for next year and beyond, than rentals like McGrady and Miller. Unless you could flip Miller to another team, for that asset.

    Otherwise there’s opportunity cost – you could trade Harrington (or Mobley) for a worse player with expiring deal, plus a pick.

    I might be in the minority but I’m almost totally indifferent about making the playoffs, just as fodder for a 1st-round sweep.

    p.s. I’ve read there’s an issue with Mobley – Knicks can’t move him unless the league rules on their application to have him declared done.

  13. Reebok1303

    “Marc Stein reporting trade rumor:

    Hou gets: Butler, Blatche, Mobley

    NYK get:TMac, Miller, James, Stevenson

    Wsh gets :Harrington, Hughes, Darko, BCook.”

    Just to be clear, this trade wouldn’t help us clear ANY cap room for this summer, correct?

  14. TDM

    Mase – I don’t see the point of that trade from the Knick’s perspective. Stevenson is another malcontent. What the Knicks would gain in Miller’s passing, they would lose in Harrington’s scoring. PLUS, I couldn’t help noticing that Jeffries name is not mentioned. Also, if I were Houston, I’d rather have Haywood than Blatche. Seems like a boondoggle for Washington.

  15. Frank

    I’d love to have an asset also but we are so boxed in by the cap space thing that I think it’s impossible. It’s not like the players we have are that great – their only trade value is tied up in their expiring deals , and we can only take expiring deals in return = rentals. In order for us to move one of them for an asset, we’d have to get a draft pick or a good cheap young player from a contender — and no one will give up a good cheap young player. In order to get a draft pick, we’d have to pick up expiring deals nearly as large as, say, Harrington, and hope that teams that are run sufficiently well to be a contender actually view Harrington as anything but a net negative (much less someone worth giving up a draft pick for). In other words, not going to happen.

    So unless we can somehow jedi-mind-trick Morey into taking Jefferies without including any of our OWN young assets, I’m perfectly happy with rentals, if only to make the rest of the season more bearable. We don’t have a draft pick next year anyway, so we may as well enjoy this season as much as we can.

  16. ess-dog

    Yeah sorry, but what’s the effing point? I’d rather take a risk on that Camby idea (with Chandler of course.) The clips could use a good swingman and more defense, and Chandler would make a great 3rd option behind Gordon and Blake. I’d rather just play the rooks.

  17. Caleb

    Frank, the formula for a simple asset-getting trade is: better player for worse player + pick. (contracts are a wash).

    No one’s giving up a lotto pick but you might get a late first-rounder. For example, Boston could swap Marquis Daniels + pick, for Nate. Or, Portland swaps Blake + Outlaw + pick (or Petteri Kopponen) for Harrington. Or if OKC is making a playoff run, they could absorb Harrington’s contract, and give up one of their 3 picks.

    p.s. Giants release Antonio Pierce.

  18. Z

    Good to have you back Caleb!

    “If Houston does nothing at the trade deadline, they’ll have about $40 million in salary committed next season — that should be $12-15 million in cap room. Or, they could have Jared Jeffries + $5-8 million.”

    Scola’s cap hold is $7 million, which handcuffs them a bit. Between Jeffries and Scola their cap space would be nil. Add Butler and their space becomes moot completely.

    If Houston is interested in signing a max player this summer, they should do nothing, or simply take back Harrington and Hughes for Tmac. But I don’t think they want to renounce Scola just for the chance to land Bosh.

    “Stein’s trade (or whoever cooked it up) is just shuffling chairs on the Titanic.”

    Yeah– you can say it’s like trading Jerome James for Larry Hughes, or Malik Rose for Chris Wilcox. Probably not even worth the paperwork. But I’d still do it, just for the sake of watching different bodies running through D’Antoni’s offensive schemes.

    “[trading Gallo + Jeffries for Camby is] a close call. It’s basically trading Gallo for $9m in cap space (to help sign LeBron, or get a sidekick) plus a late first-rounder…since even $2-3 million could make the difference between signing David Lee or not. (assuming LeBron or another max guy is willing to come).”

    Would you rather have Lee than Gallo long term? Would you rather pair LeBron with Lee than with Gallo should he come to NY? I like see your thinking here, but I’d be very nervous giving up Gallinari just to get rid of Jeffries. If the big free agents don’t even opt out this summer, we’d be left with $40 million with no one to spend it on. We wouldn’t even have anybody to build around.

    You used to have a 2011 plan. Doesn’t trading Gallo for cap space run counter to that?

  19. Jeff

    “Jeffries is the toughest to deal because his contract includes a trade kicker which would cost a prospective team approximately $3 million”

    UGH

  20. TDM

    Frank: “So unless we can somehow jedi-mind-trick Morey into taking Jefferies without including any of our OWN young assets, I’m perfectly happy with rentals, if only to make the rest of the season more bearable.”

    I don’t think this trade will make the Knicks more bearable. In fact, they will probably lose just as many games had they not made this proposed trade.

    The more I think about it, the Knicks are like that house that no one wants to buy and has been on the market for years because the previous owner died in it. LeBron is going to have to see some serious potential to come to NY, and adding another pain in the ass, primadonna like Stevenson (aka the LeBron stopper) isn’t going to help.

    Come to think of it, if this trade goes through, Stevenson may be “the LeBron stopper” – as in, that would be the final straw that could stop LeBron from coming to NY.

  21. Z

    “a trade kicker which would cost a prospective team approximately $3 million”

    Isn’t that why the Knicks would pony up $3 mil in cash?

    But still, there seem to be too many forces operating against a decent Knick trade from happening this week: Curry opting for surgery, Jeffries’ trade kicker, Robinson and Lee’s BYC status, Robinson and Lee’s veto power, Mobley’s hearing status, 2010 cap space, Hill & Douglas having tiny samples by which to evaluate them…

    It really is frustrating being a Knick fan this lifetime.

  22. chrisk06811

    If I can’t get a pick or dump Curry, I’m holding off. Jeffries has value, we should work hard to deal him for $$ and any 1st rounder, if we have to throw nate in, fine. Anything else is a waste of time. I’m fine w/ a protected 1st rounder or one down the road; I’m also fine w/ taking a 2011 or 2012 pick in exchange for our 2012 pick. but, why bother just trading expiring deals? it’s simply not worth the trouble…..I’d rather keep Jeffries because he gives a crap and doesn’t take shots away from the kids.

    If you do the deal above and get McGrady, but trade Harrington and Jeffries, who is going to take their minutes when McGrady gets hurt? I’d love to see Hill play, he could take jeffries minutes. but, who takes over for Al? Is this really worth not paying Jeffries next year? We’re only getting 1 FA anyway, and I’d think a pro would like playing w/ Jeffries…..is Battier really that much better than him?

  23. Caleb

    You used to have a 2011 plan. Doesn’t trading Gallo for cap space run counter to that?”

    Well, yeah. I’m on the fence with the Gallo thing.

    Still, the picture is pretty much in focus now — LeBron is in play. If the Knicks have, say, $24 million to spend… Lee or LeBron would have to accept less than market value. (say, $17 million and $7 million) They might. But they might not. On the other hand, by sacrificing Gallo (w/Jeffries) you would have $33 million — enough for LeBron and Lee, with some left over. If you DON’T make that move, you might be sacrificing Lee, to keep Gallo. Long-term, I’d rather have Lee.

    But given the uncertainty, it’s a tough call.

    On the other hand, it’s a no-brainer to sacrifice Chandler (or Nate), if you have that chance.

    In general, it’s no tragedy to wait. I wouldn’t overpay anyone in 2010, since there’s more opportunity next summer – especially since the next collective bargaining agreement kicks in for 2011-2012, and it will probably tilt in the owner’s favor (assuming there’s no strike or lockout). Teams will have more bargaining power. That’s why guys like Stoudemire might opt out this summer — he won’t make $17 million per, like his 2010-2011 option, but it could be better than what’s on the table in 2011.

  24. Z

    “If the Knicks have, say, $24 million to spend… Lee or LeBron would have to accept less than market value. (say, $17 million and $7 million)”

    If they have $24 million to spend, the cap would be $51 million. In that case LeBron wouldn’t be accepting less than market value because his maximum salary allowed would start at $15.3 mil.

    The cap would have to be $58 million for LeBron to even get a max salary starting at $17 million, in which case the Knicks would have $31 million to spend (ie: $14 million to throw at a second star player).

    (PS– Stern was interviewed by Chris Russo yesterday and said the league is not as bad off as their projections had warned.)

  25. Caleb

    Z,

    Z, you’re right on the max salary – it’s a bit lower than I thought. But the Knicks would have more than $27 million tied up, because the “empty” roster spots don;t count as zero.

    Curry $11.3 million
    Jeffries 6.9
    Gallinari 3.3
    Hill 2.7
    Chandler 2.1
    Douglas 1.1

    That’s $27.3 million for actual players. (some rounding there)

    Assuming the targets are LeBron and Lee/Player B, there are five extra slots. There’s a “roster charge” equal to the rookie minimum for each slot. 5 x $473,604 (Thanks, Larry Coon!) is $2.4 million.

    All this assumes the Knicks renounce Harrington, Hughes, Robinson, Duhon, Milicic and everyone else on the roster.

    In that case, the Knicks will have $29.7 million committed. With a $51 million cap, if we give the max to LeBron, only $6 million is left for David Lee.

    Fortunately… I think the cap will be a little higher. Last year, David Stern predicted a range with the high end of $53.6 million. At that point, a max deal is $16.1 million… and Lee could get $7.8 million.
    Stern said yesterday the league is in pretty good shape. If the cap hits $55 million… a max deal is $16.5 million… and there’s $8.8 million for Lee.

    In any of those scenarios, $2 million could make a big difference – maybe enough reason to basically give away Chandler or Hill.

    btw, this team would still be a year away from contending, IMO — we could tack on a mid-level exception, but we’re probably looking at everyone beyond the 9th or 10th man, being an undrafted, rookie FA.

  26. Z

    “There’s a “roster charge” equal to the rookie minimum for each slot. 5 x $473,604 (Thanks, Larry Coon!) is $2.4 million.”

    Ahhh, yes. Forgot to factor the roster charge in. BUT: the Knicks have 2 2nd round picks this year and they can go above the cap to sign them, saving 2 x $473,604 ($950,000) against the cap, right?

    But yeah– it’s why I’d be fine packaging anyone BUT Gallinari to get out from under Jeffries or Curry (or both!) (And why I disagree with Mike’s concluding statement in the above piece).

  27. jaddddd1

    A team does not get a mid-level or bi-annual exception unless they start that off-season over the salary cap, hence why the Knicks have had a mid-level exception for the last 10 or so years.

    Anyone who thinks a trade that involves Jeffries is bringing us back ANY pick (even a 2nd rounder) is crazy. He has just about 0 value to any team other than one who REALLY REALLY needs a guy who plays good team defense. Washington has no use for him, and Houston doesn’t want him, so he’s not getting into that McGrady deal.

    I’d defiitely give up Nate, Wil, Hill, Douglas or any of those to clear extra cap space, but I happen to think Gallo has a great skill set to play with LeBron. The Cavs have been looking for a “stretch the floor” 4 man for a while, and we shouldn’t be giving ours up if we plan to lure him to MSG.

  28. iserp

    As a matter of fact, Butler’s contract goes till 2011. So if Houston takes him, they’ll blow all their cap space for 2010 and wouldn’t mind taking JJ (so both of them come off the books on 2011 along Yao, and then, they will have lots of cap space that summer)

    I think Houston is being greedy about T-Mac and wants more than Butler/JJ for the cap space they will have this summer; and in the end, they will just buy out T-Mac.

  29. Caleb

    I think the roster charge is just a cap hold — those roster spots HAVE to be filled, so the league counts them at the minimum amount they would take to fill. If you sign two rookie minimum guys now, your payroll would go up by $950,000 and your roster charge would go down by the same amount.

    jaddddddd…

    I thought you could use your mid-level exception (or the other exceptions) as soon as you’re over the cap… i.e. sign LeBron, sign Lee, THEN use your exception… but as I think about it, you’re probably right… you couldn’t go OVER the cap signing Lee & LeBron… just right up to it.

    I guess that mid-level will have to wait until 2012. (though of course we’ll get $11 million freed up next summer when Curry’s deal expires).

    or, we do a deal at next year’s trade deadline, Curry for someone with a very slightly bigger contract (with a year or more left)… Then we’d be over the cap, and could use our mid-level in 2011. Gaming the system!

    Of course there will be a new CBA by then so the rules might be different.

  30. jaddddd1

    Iserp,

    You’re right, Butler and Yao come off the books in 2011, but since they’ll already be clearing that cap space, why pay Jeffries 6 million next year? There’s no reason for them to do that unless they think he’ll be a useful piece on a contender, which they don’t, otherwise they wouldn’t be insisting that he not be included in any McGrady deal.

    Caleb,

    You can go over the cap by signing your OWN players only, for example if the Knicks only had 6 million in cap room next year and then wanted to sign Lee for 10 million per, they could do that. But, they can’t go over with players from another team, so we can’t sign LeBron and Lee and go over the cap. And since we start the summer under the cap, we get no exceptions. The reason they are called exceptions is because of the phrase no team over the cap can sign another play “except” for the mid-level and bi-annual exception rules.

    If we can’t trade Curry/Jeffries this year, we should be able to use as a selling point that those are GIGANTIC assets at next year’s trade deadline, almost 20 million in expiring contracts to trade, or hold onto for the next FA class. Similar to the Marbury situation last year, but we didn’t take advantage of that.

  31. Brian Cronin

    Perhaps I’m spoiled by the Yankees, who have a smart GM to go with their money advantage, but I’d really like for the Knicks to be like the Yankees and have a GM like Morey – when you give guys like Morey the money advantage that teams like the Knicks have, it goes very well.

    But instead, the Knicks have decided to go the “Old School GM” route.

  32. Brian Cronin

    You can go over the cap by signing your OWN players only, for example if the Knicks only had 6 million in cap room next year and then wanted to sign Lee for 10 million per, they could do that.

    I don’t know about that.

    If they’re $6 million under, though, they wouldn’t have room for Lee’s $10.5 million cap hold, would they? I think their deal is if they’re at least $10.5 million under the cap, then they could sign Lee for more than that, but otherwise they wouldn’t be able to go over the cap for him.

  33. jaddddd1

    Brian, I was considering a scenario where the Knicks would ONLY be signing Lee, in which case I think you can go over the cap. The cap hold only applies before you have signed the player if I’m reading the salary cap rules correctly. Example if Lee’s cap hold is 10.5 mil and the Knicks have 27 mil committed under a 53 mil cap, they can’t sign anyone for more than 53-27-10.5=15.5 mil. I could be wrong here but I think that is what the rule says.

    I totally agree about going the Yankees’ route with a “smart” GM instead of one who’s been around the league for a while and has “relationships” like Donnie supposedly does. That’s why we sign guys like Jonathan Bender and they sign guys like Carl Landry.

  34. Caleb

    It’s confusing…

    I think that technically, the Knicks might be able to sign LeBron first… then Lee for so much $$ that the Knicks go over the cap… in that case, could they use an exception(s)? Or do you have to be over the cap as of July 1?

    But that’s a question for another day…

    In this case, it probably doesn’t matter… because to free up anything in the $15-16 million range for LeBron, we need to sign Lee first (even if by a few minutes)… otherwise, Lee’s cap hold cuts into LeBron’s $$.

  35. knickknack

    Hello KnickerBlogger! First Post ever, been reading for about three months and decided to join…. enough of the pleasantries.

    I think that as a fan base we tend to neglect the fact that even if we are not able to pawn off either curry or jefferies, i think that if we resign Lebron, who has said we would take less to be a contender, resign Lee and have a core of Lee, Lebron, gallo and Chan. Now Lebron gets a year under Coach D’s system and we have another 17 million coming off the books the next summer so Lebron can build his team. Best case scenario for the Knicks, Minnesota wins the lottery. The consensus is that John Wall is the second coming, so we feed into that, take the “project Ricky Rubio” off their hands for promising young big man Jordan Hill, throw in a expiring contract curry or jefferies and maybe even some cash. Then summer of 2011 our team looks like so:

    Pg: Rubio
    SG: Chandler
    SF: King James
    PF: Free Agent Big Man such as
    Al Horford R
    Ak47 U
    Stoudimire, if he opts in this year and banks 17 million before the new CBA, he may be willing to take less money in ’11 to team up with Lebron and seal his place in history.
    Melo U Eto, would he not be a perfect hit next to Lebron, he would become the outright scorer and lebron could avg 10 dimes a game and win.
    Durant R: Least likely, fun to think of what a team of him and Lebron both committed to winning could look like.

    The last two can play SF with Lebron Switching to the 4
    C:Mr. Lee

    R=Restricted
    U=Unrestricted
    ETO= Early termination option

    Maybe we could bring nash in as veteran pg to show rubio the states?

    That is my dream, glad to share it with fellow Knickerbockers.

  36. knicksrgreat

    i can’t believe some people think gallo is more valuable than chandler. i am flat out shocked. chandler is very similar in build to lebron: 6’8 , 25 lbs. lighter and athletic, can shoot and drive very well. there is a ton of potential there. He isn’t very aggressive by nature. But even if he never learns to be he will still be way more valuable than gallo. Even without being aggressive he is scoring a lot which should really get people excited.

    meanwhile gallo is extremely unathletic. i keep hearing people talk about his excellent basketball sense and the potential if he can dribble drive. those sound like excuses for a mediocre player to me. don’t get me wrong, i think he is an ok player. But he is not a real weapon against better teams. I shudder to think of him in the playoffs. the one thing he has is the ability to shoot 3’s, but in my opinion those types of players very rarely win games consistently or add significantly to teams. its the guys who can drive and shoot, both at very high levels, that win games consistently and chandler clearly has that potential. Even if he is a failed experiment, it costs the knicks 1/3 the amount that gallo does.

    I am haunted by the idea that because walsh and d’antoni think he is great he will be kept around, hitting a big shot everyone once in a while that glosses over his lack of dimensionality that hurts the players around him. I would trade him in heartbeat if it got rid of cap space except i doubt anyone wants him. If they do, then thats fantastic, lets trade him before he logs too many more revealing minutes and we can still claim potential as a part of his value. don’t let being a knicks fan blind you, you think the lakers are dying to add him to their team or would ever be worried about him in the playoffs? he is a nobody in the nba, don’t forget that!!!

  37. Owen

    I don’t think I want to watch a Knicks team with Mcgrady on it. Seems ludicrous that they would even consider it.

  38. Brian Cronin

    i can’t believe some people think gallo is more valuable than chandler.

    Forget “some,” try 99% of all people here (including me).

    Gallo is better than Chandler at:

    Scoring
    Scoring percentage
    Rebounding
    Turnovers
    Blocks
    Personal Fouls (shocking, I know, since Gallo was a foul machine his rookie year)

    Chandler is better than Gallo at:

    Defense (and it looks like Gallo is making great strides in that department, as well)
    Assists

    Gallo is one year younger than Chandler.

    Gallo is the more valuable player.

  39. BigBlueAL

    From what Ive read AI is planning on playing in the All-Star Game.

    knicksgreat, dunno what to make about your Gallo is a nobody rant. I have been one of Chandler’s biggest supporters especially with his play recently but Gallo is still right now a better player and no doubt will become much better in the future. You are sorely undervaluing how good a shooter Gallo is and especiallu undervaluing how efficient he is. For all of Chandler’s scoring lately he averages 1 pt more per game than Gallo while they average the same rebounds, assists, steals and blocks (actually Gallo is slightly better with the defensive stats).

    Also Gallo’s TS% is 4 pts higher. He has hit a rough spot recently offensively yet in that same span has become by far the 2nd best rebounder on the team. His absence from the end of the game vs the Kings was the main reason for that loss. Saying he hurts the players around him is no offense but probably the dumbest statement you can make. He helps them more than any player for one because of how much he stretches the floor with his shooting, his lack of ball-hogging and actual sense of ball movement is a trait I wish all his teammates had and he will probably wind up as the 2nd best rebounder on the team and already is the 2nd best shotblocker on the team.

    Sorry but I believe you are way, way off in your evaluation of Gallo.

  40. BigBlueAL

    Well apparently it is official, Lee is an All-Star replacing AI. Also Gallo is already in Dallas so I guess he is good to go this weekend too.

  41. nicos

    On Chandler vs. Gallo- agree that Gallo is the better bet but I will say Gallo’s defensive stats are inflated vs Chandler because Chandler almost always is given the tougher match-up. He gets far fewer opportunities to cheat off of the ball to get steals and blocks (and rebounds) than Gallo does. Gallo has had an impressive number of blocks on the ball but some of this is because he too often allows the player to penetrate with the hope of challenging the shot at the rim rather than just stopping the penetration in the first place. Gallo, had made real improvements on defense over the course of the season so I do think he can narrow the gap.

    Also- Chandler’s able to maintain a higher usage rate because he’s better at creating his own shot than Gallo. Yes Gallo puts the ball on the floor occasionally but the overwhelming reason his scoring pct. is so much better than Chandler’s is that most of his shots are coming from 3 and (at this point in his career anyway) he’s dependent on someone else’s help (via screen or drive and dish) to get his points. That said, Gallo’s ability to spread the floor as he always has to be accounted for helps everyone out in a way that is so important to how the game is played now.

    The other issue is health- bad backs can derail a career (see Larry Johnson). While Gallo hasn’t missed any time because of the back this year I think it’s pretty clear that he’s not 100% in terms of flexibility. Maybe it turns out to be a non-issue going forward but maybe not- but something to think about if you’re thinking about moving one or the other.

  42. Droidz1979

    The only personnel who are untouchable in the Knicks roster should be Gallo and Chandler period..you don’t waste young talent for a dream that may only remain as such after the dust settles in 2010 when we don’t get to sign Lebron or any other stud available. And doing what Detroit did this year by overpaying guys who are not really worth it would be a situation that i don’t want the knicks to be into. It would be like having Isiah for a GM all over again.

    Besides, why waste all the time Knicks has invested to this guys in developing them. They are both well rounded and can play team D. I’d rather lose Lee than overpay him and get decent talent at the free agency or a good pick in return. Besides, we do get to lose Jeffries and Curry by 2011 or trade them next year where they have true value. For the meantime, lets play our young guys (Hill, Landry and Douglas) to better assess if they are worth investing further.

  43. ndpoet7

    Mike,

    I disagree that you have the easiest trade for all teams involved. I have one that makes more economic sense, as less contract value has to trade hands.

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ylohska

    This link should lead you to my trade.

    NYK get: Tracy McGrady
    Wash gets: A. Harrington, J. Jeffries
    Hou gets: Caron Butler, B. Haywood, D. Milicic

    Darko wants to leave – he’s gone. NY still sheds Jeffries’ contract as it desires and in return gets a solid veteran for at least the remainder of the season. Not bad actually. Washington loses a PF and C, and in return gets two versatile Forwards – one who is a great defender and one who is a high scorer. Houston gets young big men for the future, as well as the playoff run, while they also pick-up an expiring contract in DM. That way we also keep Mobley’s contract as the NYK certainly want to do. Perhaps a draft pick or two get exchanged as well. But, IMO, this is actually the simplest possible trade and, also IMO, a good one.

    Go Knicks!

  44. Brian Cronin

    it looks to me that jeffries will get traded to a contender for nothing, perhaps a backup PG

    Based on what, exactly?

    Every contender out there saying they don’t want any part of his 2010 salary?

  45. Mike Kurylo Post author

    ndpoet7 – I imagine the Wizards impetus for the deal is to reduce their salary cap, not try to get back to the playoffs with their 17 win team. Going from Butler to Jeffries only saves them ~ $3M next year.

  46. knicksrgreat

    Thanks for the comments on Gallo vs. Chandler. Let me just reiterate my point as simply as possible: there are more dominant player types similar to Chandler than to Gallo. The main one who comes to mind for Gallo is Dirk. Gallo would need to develop an excellent shoot over defenders jumpshot from anywhere on the court to reach that level and he is still 2″ shorter than Dirk. There are a lot more excellent players you could compare Chandler to.

    I take your point about Gallo stretching the floor and having a better adjusted field goal %. My problem is that there are a fair amount of role players who can shoot high percentage three pointers. What Gallo doesn’t do that well is drive and dish or drive and shoot. He doesn’t have a serious compliment to his three point shooting, nor do I believe he has the physical assets to develop one. While not overwhelming chandler is averaging .5 assist more per 48 and is shooting 52% vs. Gallo at 45% on his 2 point attempts. I think this is because Chandler has a compliment to his inside the ark jumper which is his driving ability. This allows him to create more options for his teamates than gallo.

    Chandler has the physical attributes and has shown a steady progression in his shooting that indicate a strong potential for extending his jump shot further outside and if he adds muscle finishing more effectively on the inside as well. For these reasons, in my opinion, Chandler has a lot more potential than Gallo and is a rarer asset. But I will admit that if Gallo can start making some 2 point jumpers at a higher rate he could become more dynamic. Plus I am suspicious of anything isiah thomas has a hand in so Chandler is still tainted by Isiah’s curse. Time will tell.

  47. Mike Kurylo Post author

    “Thanks for the comments on Gallo vs. Chandler. Let me just reiterate my point as simply as possible: there are more dominant player types similar to Chandler than to Gallo.”

    And there are more busts in the mold of Chandler than Gallo. What separates Chandler from greatness is either the extreme athletic ability of a Gerald Wallace or the superb skillset of a Paul Pierce. When an athletic player has neither, they’re just the average NBA SG/SF.

    “My problem is that there are a fair amount of role players who can shoot high percentage three pointers.”

    Too bad Wilson Chandler isn’t one of them.

    “What Gallo doesn’t do that well is drive and dish or drive and shoot. He doesn’t have a serious compliment to his three point shooting, nor do I believe he has the physical assets to develop one.”

    Gallo drives to the hoop well enough. I don’t see a problem with his physical ability – he’s had some nice dunks this year. Gallo attempts 3.6 free throws per 36min, 3rd best on the team. Chandler, for all his athletic ability, is 7th. Add in that Chandler attempts more fga (and hence more opportunities for ft) and Gallo is definitely better at getting to the line.

  48. Ted Nelson

    Joining the discussion late again, but in that proposed trade Houston is a huge loser. They give up cap space going into potentially the biggest FA summer ever to pay Butler and Jeffries a combined $17 million????? No way. Houston is a favorite offseason home for NBA players and a good team already, so they’ve got a real shot at doing something in free agency.

    Butler is having a terrible season and a bit overpaid in the first place. He’s a better shooter than Ariza but might give that advantage up completely on defense, plus Budinger might be better than Butler by next year anyway at a fraction of the cost. I know there have been a lot of Butler/T-Mac rumors flying around, but I don’t get it. Jeffries… well… as someone said earlier with Battier, Ariza, Lowry, Scola, Hayes, Landry… he might be a relative defensive liability for Houston. Haywood might help Houston out with depth/match-ups, but he’s not a top-flight defensive presence. To add insult to injury they are also giving up a 1st rounder…

    I see it as a dream scenario for the Knicks, a good deal for Washington, and a royal screwing for the smartest GM in the NBA…

  49. Ted Nelson

    “you don’t waste young talent for a dream that may only remain as such after the dust settles in 2010 when we don’t get to sign Lebron or any other stud available.”

    The argument for using the young talent is that it increases your chance of landing LeBron significantly. You can go out and add a Wade, Bosh, or Johnson to convince James that he can not only make more money in NYC (through endorsements), but also win more titles than elsewhere. It’s a risk, but when the stakes are so incredibly high you sometimes have to take a risk. The Knicks have a somewhat long shot at becoming a dynasty this offseason, while their current rebuilding effort seems to give them a good chance of becoming a playoff team. It’s a tradeoff. I personally really value a good playoff team that never wins a title but is consistently exciting in the playoffs for years, but even I would go for the long shot here. (Then again, trading WC or Gallo gives you less pieces in a sign-and-trade and might actually decrease the odds of getting LeBron or LeBron/Wade… another tradeoff).

    Bosh said that he will talk to LeBron and Wade before he signs any deal. If the Knicks have the cap space to sign two of them they can be a serious part of such conversations…

  50. taggart4800

    I think for the knicks to move jeffries it has to hurt us. i don’t think any team has any real interest in any knick bar lee. so…

    Jeffries
    WC
    Nate
    Al

    for

    T-Mac
    Lowry

    seems fair to me. have houston got the roster space? not sure it works dollars wise. and i have no idea whether lowry’s contract runs through 2010? but he is definately an upgrade over the current pg situation. not sure he is worth asking for if his contract is longer than that.

  51. Loathing

    OK, so what the heck’s going on with Curry? What’s his “injury” this time and when (or if) we can expect him back?

  52. Ted Nelson

    re: WC vs. Gallo,

    It’s an interesting question. A few things I would consider:

    1. Chandler is slightly further along in his NBA development. Until 1/4 of the way through the season there’s no doubt I would have taken Gallo over him, but he’s really turned it on and stopped settling for jumpers/taking too many 3s.

    2. Athletic wing players are a common commodity, often easy to come by, and often overpaid. Chandler is turning into a very good #23 pick, but there are a bunch of players you can compare him to including Caron Butler, Rudy Gay, Josh Howard, Danny Granger, Richard Jefferson, Corey Maggette, Marvin Williams, Thaddeus Young, Derrick Brown, Travis Outlaw, Loul Deng, Al Harrington, Desmond Mason…

    3. 6-11 players who can hit 40% of their 3s with a TS% close to 60 on a medium volume are not all that common. You have to hope that Danilo improves and either adds parts to his game or at least refines the spot-up shooting skills he’s relying on now. To assume Chandler will improve by leaps and bounds and Danilo will just stagnate is a bit ridiculous. So the assertion that Chandler type players are harder to find than Danilo types is not clear cut.

    4. To state the obvious, what it really comes down to: how do they develop. My list of WC-like players all fall into a certain part of the spectrum, but there’s a lot of differences in the way they developed. For WC keys are 3 pt shot, playmaking, defense. Danilo has even more different development paths he might follow, in my opinion, ranging from a Peja style spot-up shooter (what he is now), to a more versatile stretch 4 like maybe Rashard Lewis, to a Hedo or Kukoc type distributor, to Peja + Hedo/Kukoc, to a Dirk type bigman… and everywhere in between.
    Danilo was a slasher/penetrator in Europe, but has been slow and largely hesitant in the NBA. Maybe he can’t cut it athletically, but someone like Hedo is slow as molasses but has developed enough skill to overcome that after a somewhat slow start to his career. Maybe he is filling in a sort of Q-Rich in Phoenix role in the offense (spot up shooting) until his game develops. D’Antoni has said that Danilo is working to develop post moves and to take people off the dribble, and that once one or both come around he will be featured more offensively.

    I don’t know that the answer is, to me honest.

  53. TheRooster8

    Gallo>>>>Chandler.

    Everyone seems impressed with Chandler’s increased aggressiveness and scoring recently. Interesting, as it has corresponded with one of the worst stretches of the season since the 1-9 start. The game against SAC was the perfect example. Chandler is red hot all game, but delivers NOTHING down the stretch (except for a missed wide open three and a stupid put-back dunk attempt instead of rebooting the offense). Chandler not only shoots and passes worse than Gallo (he has more assists cause he drives and kicks, where as Gallo is the recipient of drive and kicks), but Gallo has a MUCH higher basketball IQ. Not to mention, much of Gallo’s rookie season was lost to injury, so this is truly his first real season.

    Lastly, Gallo is young and will fill out muscularly as well as the possibility of adding an inch or two (lebron did it). Chandler, while he may learn to average more points/rebounds a game, is what he is. And that is a shi**y version of Trevor Ariza.

  54. knicksrgreat

    one of the worst stretches of the season has corresponded with the knicks horrible guard play. Lee is having a great stretch of games, by your logic he is to blame as well.

  55. TheBigRooster

    First off, I am very curious if the kurylo even reads what he writes before he publishes it. I have been a silent reader for a long time now and just would like to point out, that in the “simplest trade proposal” you offer it has Mobley as part of the trade, while in the paragraph below the “trade” he writes that that “New York has reiterated that they would not trade Cuttino Mobley”, so I ask why even show that ridiculous trade?
    The Gallo/Chandler argument is a simple one. As Chandler shows his growth as a player throughout the season, it is clear that he is approaching the ceiling of his level of play. He does not take the wisest shots and for some reason feels hot when he very clearly is not. I am a firm believer in the shoot til you make and keep shooting til you miss mentality, but if you want to grow as a player you have to identify good shots, and not just shots. Late in the game against the kings Chandler “feeling his hot hand” put up a 3 with under a minute to play without consulting the shot clock and protecting the lead in a must win game.
    Rooster8 is right about Gallo, this basically is his rookie season. He has shown that he can shoot, very well, and has the potential to drive and get to the line also. He is always learning and his growth as a player, physically and mentally, is on a much better path than Chandler. If anything wouldn’t you want a complimentary player that knows what a good shot is, instead of a chucker? Chandler is a chucker.
    All these issues seem to be brought out because of one main reason. We lack a pg that can actually run an offense. If there is a legit floor general out there to orchestrate and fix problems on the fly players flaws can be hidden because the pg is supposed to play to his teammates strengths and carry out the offense. Boohon, as he deserves to be called shows no confidence in ANY part of his game.

  56. eric8476

    Brian, i just think that jeffries is just a component for a contender that they need.
    Knicksrgreat, I think Gallo should model his game after larry bird instead of Dirk. Dirk is more agile and athletic than Gallo. Gallo would be a great larry bird type player.

  57. Loathing

    Rooster, as funny as that may be, I’m actually being serious, for once. Any ideas, anyone, before I post more Curry trades and inadvertantly infuriate everyone?

  58. TheRooster8

    Knicksrgreat:
    “one of the worst stretches of the season has corresponded with the knicks horrible guard play. Lee is having a great stretch of games, by your logic he is to blame as well.”

    In case you haven’t followed this season, Lee has been pretty much playing out of his mind since the first 10 games. He lead the way during the win streak, and has maintained it throughout.

    And in case you did not realize this, Chandler is a GUARD. So when you say “horrible guard play” that means him as well. You see, when you have a SG that doesn’t really stretch the defense, doesnt pass well, and doesn’t take good shots, it falls entirely on the PG to facilitate and run the team. Duhon has proven himself incapable of this. But part of the problem is the knicks are basically playing with a PG, two SF and two PF. Chandler as a three paired with a strong SG w/handle and shooting is fine, as long as he is the third or fourth option on the floor. Gallo is capable of being a strong 3rd option, and could turn into a strong 2nd option. Lest we forget he was the crunch time scorer on his team in Italy as a teenager. Not the NBA, but still impressive.

    Chandler might be a decent player, but he plays the same position as Gallo, and if you want to keep up the LBJ charade, he plays basically the same position as him. So i’m just not sure why we’ll hold onto him.

  59. Ted Nelson

    “So i’m just not sure why we’ll hold onto him.”

    Because he’s become a valuable player and capable of developing a whole lot further. If some team views Chandler as the next Danny Granger/Richard Jefferson and are willing to give up that kind of value in a trade, then sure I would trade him. I wouldn’t just trade a good asset for a 2nd round pick (… something of little value) for no reason, though. If you can use him to clear cap space I would consider it, and when it’s close to time to give him a 2nd contract the situation will be a little different.
    If Walshtoni feel like Chandler can finish off the season the way he’s been playing recently the only reason to trade him now is cap space because his value will increase this offseason when people look at a full season worth of solid stats. Walsh was throwing around the idea of Chandler for a top 5 pick last offseason, and after a break out season maybe that’s a possibility. As he approaches his 2nd contract the Knicks might consider taking a shot in the draft rather than overpaying WC in 2011.

    Basically, I do feel like Chandler is the type of player who can be more valuable as a trade asset (in part because I think he’ll be overpaid in free agency/an extension… and in part because the Knicks are pretty far away from contention, not one athletic wing 3rd scoring option away), but it’s a matter of when you trade him and what you can get. Maybe you do sign him to an extension/re-sign him if his demands are not ridiculous.

  60. TheRooster8

    So basically, you just agreed with me. That was my point. This is not a guy for the long term, not a guy who will be on these supposed future knicks championship teams. So if he is the carrot that helps us shave Jeffries, or even to pick up a decent draft pick, its time.
    There is a Wilson Chandler in every draft class, possibly even two. If anyone thinks this guy is the next Danny Granger, I have a 400 pound center from Chicago I’d like to trade them, because he’s the next Shaq.

  61. TheRooster8

    Also Ted, how do you figure he was worth a TOP 5 pick last year….then has played better this year…..and now is worth a 2nd round pick? How does that work?

  62. Ted Nelson

    I agree depending on the specifics. The tone of the last few posts was generally “Chandler stinks and Gallo is amazing.” So that’s where I was coming from. I think using Chandler for nothing but getting rid of Jeffries is a tough call. I would probably go for it because the potential payoff of LeBron AND Wade in Knicks uniforms is so incredibly great. I can see why others wouldn’t, though.

    Granger or Richard Jefferson is sort of the top of Chandler’s ceiling. Butler, Josh Howard, and Gay are maybe more in the expected upper end of his range.

    I don’t think he was worth a top 5 pick last season, I think Walsh was floating those rumors. I used 2nd rounder to mean basically nothing. As in, let’s not just give Chandler away.

  63. jaddddd1

    Anyone else think we should make the rumored Harrington for Ty Thomas deal that’s out there? Maybe Ty Thomas, Nate, and Jeffries will be enough for Houston to bite on a T-Mac trade if they view Thomas as having more potential to help them in the future than Harrington does this year.

  64. jkid36

    I was trying to figure out a third team to involve in which the knicks could drastically improve their 8 man rotation. NY-Houston-Phoenix.
    Ny gets:
    Tracy Mcgrady, Amare Stoudamire, Leandra Barbosa
    Phx gets:
    Gallo, Harrington, Duhon, Douglas, Mobley
    Houston gets:
    J. Hill, Darko, Hughes, Channing Frye (Suns)
    Obviously their would be draft picks/money involved in a certain respect but, financially the trade works and as to why the other two teams agree to deal? Only Gallo and J. Hill’s contracts run past this season, with the other contracts adding up to the cap relief of holding onto T-Mac and Amare. As for short-term, the Rockets find a big-man project in Jordan Hill and the ex-Knick Frye as well as a chance to stay in the playoff hunt, the Suns get Gallo who is only fit for their (our) brand of basketball as well as Duhon to back Nash and Harrington to fill the stretch-4 spot. Knicks get Barbosa for the purpose that he flourished with D’Antoni and is currently in Gentry’s doghouse. That being said, the Knicks starting line-up post trade deadline:
    PG Nate Robinson
    SG T-Mac
    SF Chandler
    PF Amare
    C D. Lee

    Jeffries and Curry will be assets to trade at end of the season and as much as I despise seeing Jeffries on the floor, let alone shooting, the man can play defense. Curry, he just needs to cut that gross facial hair and come to grips with the fact that, unless a buy out or Declined player option, he will not play in a Knicks uniform, let alone in the NBA next season

  65. bbbb00123

    Quick trade suggestion..

    Dallas gets: Jeffires, Hill, Chandler
    Knicks get: Josh Howard

    It could work right? Dallas has to take on Jeffries’s contract, but Hill and Chandler are nice young talent. Some would even say Chandler is better than Howard. The Knicks on the other hand get rid of 3!! players that eat up cap room. Both Hill and Chandler are better than worthless filler players, but each one is another 2million or so dollars off our cap room. It gives us an extra 4 that could end up being big possibly?

    Just an idea.

  66. Loathing

    Bx4 – Not bad. Right now, I’d say gut the team if it means getting rid of Curry/Jeffries.

    Jkid – No. Houston wouldn’t go for it. They’re a contender now and none of those players help them, except the one we AREN’T giving them in your deal. Hill’s too young, Darko sucks and Hughes is another T-Mac, just not as good. They’re not playing him anyway.

  67. Loathing

    Two trade ideas I hope you all like. If I remember correctly, if a team goes over the roster limit as the result of a trade, they can waive the extra parties involved to bring themselves back down to the max roster size. If I’m wrong, please tell me.

    TRADE 1:
    Bucks get Chandler and Jeffries
    Knicks get Ridnour
    Bucks waive Jeffries and get the SF they NEED.

    TRADE 2:
    Rockets get Harrington, Nate & Curry
    Knicks get T-Mac and Brian Cook
    Rockets waive Curry and get lots of bench help.

  68. jkid36

    loathing—in case you didn’t understand, the only person Houston is losing in the trade is a person who does not play. Darko, Hughes, and Frye from the Suns all are in the last years of their contract, while Hill is a Rookie Lottery Pick with Upside. THAT MEANS they get 20+ mil. in cap relief and get last yr lottery pick at a position they are thin at. Same thing with Phoenix, they get as much cap relief as if they kept barbosa and Amare and get a deeper roster of players, a lottery pick in Gallo. Yes we keep curry and jeffries for another year but you can’t just waive two player (like you said) with Player options for the next year. Just because they do not get traded before the deadline does not mean they will not be traded before free agency starts.

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