Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, December 19, 2014

113 comments on “Summer League 2007: Knicks vs Kings

  1. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Balkman 20 footer! 1 minute into the game (of course he missed). But it’s good to see him attempt it that’s what summer league is for. Of course on the next trip down he gets an easy dunk.

  2. Owen

    I get the sensation that the summer league unit plays much better defense than our starting unit.

    Balkman is everywhere. On pretty much every fast break he seems to be in a good spot to receive a pass and convert, although they haven’t hit him as you mentioned. He always is moving well without the ball. And he always seems to be around the ball, although a few balls have been plucked away from him…

  3. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Another good pass by nate to Chandler on the baseline. Hey Owen – can you tell me what Rose said when Nate got T’d up? I missed it. Nate looks good, but still has that immaturity thing to get rid of. I wonder after how many seasons that stops being a maturity issue, and is more …. ummmm I can’t think of the right word… his real personality?

  4. Owen

    he got hit ref
    ahh, come on
    Nate! (stopped saying something here, probably profane)
    I am sitting next to the immortal one G… (aint that the truth, I love Gus…)

    then on the fast break

    uh oh Nate’s upset
    Something I couldn’t catch
    Ahh, I will leave that alone

  5. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    3Q – BAlkman passes up a jumper, but maybe he should have since a defender was near and Renaldo was able to get past him. That’s exactly why Balkman needs to shoot – even if it’s inefficient. It’ll open up the court to him if others have to at least respect his shot.

  6. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    OK Balkman passed on a wide open jumper. In fact he could have dribbled in to about 12 feet and still had an open shot. Instead he went to the rack, crowded with the other team, & drew the foul. That would be a fantastic result in the regular season. But I’d still like to see him shoot that shot in the summer league.

  7. Owen

    Noticed in that little clip of the coach earlier, that they call him Ray,

    Not sure a jumper is in his immediate future, but you are right, its something to work on in summer league.

    Great fast break dish by Ray

    and then great drive, hell bent along the baseline.

    I love Walt and Gus…

  8. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Nichols airball. Again he’s not impressing me. Maybe we won’t be able to rely on him for outside shooting this year… Too early to say, there’s still preseason… but you’d like to see him doing well against this competition.

  9. jon abbey

    Clyde on Curry, talking to Mark Aguirre: “kudos on making him the most omnipotent force in the league in the paint.” I think I heard Owen’s head explode. :)

  10. Owen

    Mentioned Artest.

    Gus thinks Artest is better than Lee. So does Walt. Cmon guys!

    Balkman is great. But he cooked one of my least favorite dishes tonight, an Eddy Curry. That’s an unsavory stew with more turnovers in it than rebounds. He was 6-8 from the line though, and looked good there, maybe we might get a Lee like jump. I know they hang out a lot. One of his misses was so ugly it hurt though…

    Aguirre talking about Curry, who is “omnipotent in the post..” I dont really like his line here…

  11. dave crockett

    that was a nice interview with aguirre. i wish those of us outside the city got to hear more from him.

  12. Bernard King

    Like I said earlier with Nichols, its a confidence thing with him. Once he feels like he belongs, he will be just fine. He shot really well against the Chinese team too. I think he looks pretty good, especially taking the ball to the hoop.

    Course Im a big Cuse homer, so there is that. But Im a fan of DNic (yeah, thats what we called him).

    My other impressions:

    Morris looks like a perfectly decent backup center. He has skills and clearly can rebound. But his footwork is a bit too slow to be a real NBA starter. But no reason why he cant be a 10-12 minute guy and I already prefer him to James (not saying much).

    Im digging Chandler. He hustles and is very athletic.

    Balkman and Nate look like terrors out there. Nate seems motivated and I have to think he has an edge to get the 4th guard spot.

    Meanwhile, Knicks are blowing the big lead, so it seems the summer league team has a few things in common with the first team.

    They will feel like Knicks to me if they end up pulling it out on a Nate Robinson 3 pointer.

  13. dave crockett

    When I see Balkman just all over the floor, looking like there are four or five of him, my rage for S. Carolina coach Dave Odom grows and grows. Balkman just wasn’t developed at all.

  14. Owen

    Balkman forced a steal at halfcourt, Morris picked it up, gave it to chandler, who dished to RayBal for a monster monster alley oop…

    Gus is gushing about him. Walt is talking about how difficult its going to be keep him off the court…

    Nate just had a great block, that guy has hops…

  15. jon abbey

    “When I see Balkman just all over the floor, looking like there are four or five of him, my rage for S. Carolina coach Dave Odom grows and grows. Balkman just wasn?t developed at all.”

    he’s a unique kind of player, like Anthony Mason and Dennis Rodman, they tend to really develop well after college. I don’t recall many NBA scouts thinking he had much promise this time last year either… :)

  16. Bernard King

    Hey Mike K, Id like to think that DNic redeemed himself a bit. He was terrific down the stretch and hit a couple of very clutch shots. Thats the player he is right there. He is used to taking big shots (and hitting them).

    While you might disagree, I dont see how this guy doesnt make the roster. He is probably the best shooting forward on the roster right now (including Q).

  17. Els

    Great Game! I know it’s just summer league but I’m feeling really good about the knicks right now.

    King – I totally agree about Demetris but there is no way I can see Zeke dropping him. He not only drafted him, but traded for his rights! Zeke is obsessed with his picks and almost never outright cuts them. There was an article in the post today saying that they may send him to Europe for a year, but I think he’s got a shot we can use for the upcoming season. Course I’m a Cuse’ Guy so I guess I’m biased.

    A thought on Nate Robinson. I admit, like the majority of knick fans, I too was a hater last season and wanted him off the team. I still think if the impossible occurs and we can steal Artest by trading him in a package that would be amazing. (I’m not getting my hope’s up) BUT. . . I have to give him credit after seeing tonight’s game he really DESERVES TO STAY on the roster. Again I know it’s only summer league, but he sure looks dedicated to chaging his game out there (10 assists and only a few turnovers). After tonight I hope people get off his back and realize that he is trying his hardest to be the best guard he can be out there. While I like Mardy Collins as much as the next guy, if Nate ever figures his game out he’ll be a MUCH better player the Mardy can ever reach for. I mean Mardy will never be able to block Yao Ming’s shot will he?

  18. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    re: Nichols – I see what you mean. Down the stretch he hit a few shots. I’ll take my own advice (that people are naturally bad at percentages) and rely solely on his stats. 16-29, with 7 treys – that’s a 67% eFG. Pretty darn nice. 9AST/2TO is impressive as well. And here’s my favorite: 3 BLKs. Maybe he’ll be a contributor this year after all.

  19. Caleb

    Nichols might have a future, but as of now he’s the 5th string SF (after Balkman, Chandler, Q & Jeffries). A year in Europe sounds about right.

  20. bmj320

    I wish there was a way to trade Jeffries and Crawford. Balkman should be the first player off the bench and this kid Nichols has really impressed not only with his shooting but with his defense and hustle. He just doesn’t stand on the perimeter and bombs away. With his height he would make it difficult for opposing sg to get their shot off. We all know about Crawford and his defense.

  21. bmj320

    In about a year Chandler will supplant any of the Knicks starting sf. He has a decent midrange game, good free throww shooter and gets to the rack at will. Balkman really has to work on his shooting to not be considered a liability on offense.

  22. Henry

    I’m not trying to start anything but I saw Nichols open in the corner at least three times and Chandler not getting him the ball. Maybe it’s because Nichols always has his hands ready to shoot or maybe Chandler doesn’t want Nichols to shine more than him. Or maybe I’m just seeing things.

    Also the Kings came back once the much hated Nate went down. They could have used Marty there.

  23. abillus

    This one thing I’ve not seen written about yet. Thomas drafted two very similar players. Chandler and Nichols. Some people want to call one a PF and one a SG, I( don’t see it. Ok, nichols is probably a better shooter. But chandler a pretty good shooter too. Chandler could be a better rebounder but mostly just because hes playing closer to rim on this summer team. Look at them next to each other, they are very similar, both versitile, athletic, very similar skills. They proably look at eachother like direct competion, woudln’t you, on a team you know has too many players? Its a shame because they are both what we need, 2 dimensional, well rounded, active, and good shooters. Nice draft.

  24. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Henry – I saw Chandler miss some wide open people as well. Hopefully it’s him trying to impress the team with his scoring in a meaningless game, and not a lack of vision.

    While I think Chandler and Nichols both are primarily SF, I think you can make the case for Nichols at SG more than Chandler at PF.

  25. abillus

    I agree with that. And I think he is just trying to impress but who knows. Its funny if Chandler was scoring 20 a game, he would naturally be sharing less, and dominating the ball more and everyone would just be raving about his numbers. Not that he can’t share too, but you cant show what you can do if your always passing the ball away. Either way they are both good players, so it will work out. One of them will be part of the future in a big way I’m sure.

  26. Bernard King

    I wouldnt mind seeing Nichols go to Europe for a season, but (again, Im a Cuse homer so exCuse me) I think he could fit nicely in the rotation. Lets also be mindful of the fact that summer league is not much different than the college level he was excelling at, stepping up while having to guard Kevin Garnett or Lebron is going to be a different story.

    But I think we all agree the kid isnt a stiff and can play. I like what I see out of Chandler too.

    Nate has certainly upped his value tremendously.

    Im going to sum up our feelings for us right now — we realize that the Knicks (for the first time in eons) have a bunch of young marketable assets that can be used in a trade. We are just terrified of the guy with his hand on the switch.

    If Zeke makes a move, I pray its for the right piece or pieces because part of the fun of being a fan (and Im a lifelong Knick fan since 1975) is watching the young guys develop.

    I for one, would rather watch the team grow with Chandler, Balkman and Lee (and hopefully Nichols) than get a thug like Artest for one season.

    But with a payroll like ours, its all about winning and we just need to accept the inevitability of it.

    Without getting too giddy though, if you could package Nate Rob, Chandler and say, Q Rich or Crawford for Artest and get Ron to sign a long term deal, its not horrible GMing. Would actually be a shrewd move. So maybe Zeke has learned a few things at this GM game (from failing so badly).

    You only have Marbury for a few more years and you just traded for Zach Randolph, so heck, lets try to win now. But you cant trade guys like Lee and Balkman who do the things you need to do in order to win championships.

    Btw, I had another thought — I doubt very much that Curry is untouchable at this moment (especially with the Randolph trade). Just a thought. Nobody seems to mention that.

  27. Bernard King

    With regard to the Chandler v. Nichols debate, I disagree that they are that similar. Chandler is a much more athletic player than Nichols. That isnt to say that Nichols is a bad athlete — he isnt, but he isnt going to dazzle you with his athleticism either. He is a very smooth and polished player with a high basketball IQ. Decent finisher around the basket, but not great (especially when getting fouled. Amazing how many times he misses a chippy that could have been a three-pt play). Solid rebounder and can block a shot or too.

    Chandler will never be a gunner but is a great athlete and a great finisher around the basket. Better rebounder for sure (because of superior atheticism) but not as much of a scorer.

    Nichols is a guy you bring in off the bench for scoring. Chandler is a guy you bring in off the bench for energy, hustle, rebounding who will not be an offensive liability.

    Very different players if you ask me.

    Chandler probably offers a bit more upside too.

  28. bmj320

    Maybe Jeffries and Crawford for Artest. Jeffries would replace Artest defense and Crawford would replace his scoring essentially getting rid of one contract. Then maybe we could trade Fred Jones and Dickau to the Sonics for either Earl Watson or Luke Ridenhour. This would bring our roster down to 15.

  29. Caleb

    re: sacto, we’d have to take back another big contract to make that work, someone like Kenny Thomas. Plus there’s no way Sacto takes back Crawford when they have Kevin Martin and Francisco Garcia.

    The Seattle idea sounds more promising – I”m not sure Watson is that much better than Mardy, but he’s better, and if we’re this far over the cap anyway it’s not a big deal to take the more expensive player.

    Would you trade Crawford and Balkman for Shane Battier?

  30. steve

    Somebody will be moved on this team. It won’t be the 3 rookies unless there is a major trade for a Shawn Marion or Ron Artest. Too many players who play the same positions. Isiah did a nice job of drafting over the past 3 years and he’s going to reap the benefits. No one on this team should be untouchable, when you won a TOTAL of 56 games in 2 years.The NBA graveyards are filled with players that had “upside”. Watch a few films of Dave Debusschere and get over David Lee please. This roster as it exists is a seventh or 8th seed at best, in the EASTERN CONFERENCE, so they have a lot of work to do. If they stick to this roster until Stephs contract is off the books, so be it. Isiah will make one more desparate attempt at Kobe Bryant this summer. They need 1st team ALL-NBA caliber players, at least perennial all-stars. Otherwise, this will remain a flawed team for the next 2-3 years, but at least watchable. Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, Kurt Thomas, Allan Houston, Marcus Camby.Now there was a team.

  31. Caleb

    also re: Artest – there is no way we should give up major assets for a guy that unpredictable, no matter how good he MIGHT turn out to be.

    Luckily, there’s no way we would have to… his trade value is very low. Sacto will likely wait until the February deadline, see what offers they get, and take the best one. The winning bid will probably be something like expiring contracts plus a first-round pick, or a player like Wilson Chandler.

    re: Curry, Isaiah might be willing to deal, but no team is gonna take him – not at that salary, with an uninsurable heart condition. So of course Zeke will say he’s untouchable. No hard feelings that way.

  32. MattinDC

    Man, now I really wish we didn’t waste our last two mid-level exceptions on bums…these young guys could add much more quality to the Knicks (in short stints) than Jared Jeffries and Jerome James ever can. Plus, the team wouldn’t have too many players on its roster who must be used because Isiah over-paid for them.

  33. Ben

    I know, take away Jeffries and James and our team does not seem that crowded afterall:

    Marbury Collins Nate Dickau
    Crawford Richardson Jones
    Balkman Chandler Nichols
    Randolph Lee Rose
    Curry Morris

    Well maybe still a little crowded but better anyway. I say if Isiah cannot trade Jeffries and James buy them both out and move Dickau and Jones for 2nd round picks. That would leave us at 13 players with room to sign Greene and leave a roster spot open.

    Too bad this won’t happen, I actually feel bad for Jeffries because I think he is a solid player, just with Q’s return and Balkman’s development we have no need for him.

  34. Z

    Q’s return? He had back surgery– hardly something you just “return” from. More likely than buying $50 million out of the J’s is a medical retirement for Q sometime in Feb.

  35. Ben

    I know we will not buy out Jeffries and James I was just being hopeful.

    I am optimistic about Q and I think he should be the backup anyway. If he cannot go then we still have both our rookies and Lee to play the minutes backing up Balkman.

    I firmly believe that Balkman should be our starting SF next year and if he starts he will be the reason we improve next year even more than Zach. FWIW I hope we do not get Artest because I want to see what Balkman can do given the chance.

    Where does Jeffries play next year. We have Crawford, Q and Balkman all deserving starters minutes at the wing, and Lee, Curry and Zach all deserving them up front.

    Jeffries is too talented to rot on the bench in case of an injury. We need him gone, by trade or buyout.

  36. BigEastBball

    I have an unrelated question about buyouts. How do they affect the salary cap. If the Knicks, for example buy out Jeffries or Q, do their salaries still count against the cap for the entire duration of the contract? What about its implications to the luxury tax?

  37. Caleb

    Buyouts do not affect the cap number.

    We have several expendable players, including 2006-2007 starters (Crawford & Q)) and rotation players (Jeffries), but most have very little trade value, because of contracts, health or both.

    Dickau and Jones have more value because their contracts run out at the end of this season. Jones can play, too – he’s at least as good a defender as Mardy Collins.

  38. Bernard King

    Actually last season Isiah was heavily criticized for buying out the expiring contract of Jalen Rose but nobody mentioned that keeping Rose likely meant cutting someone like Mardy Collins.

    What would Rose’s expiring contract would have been worth? A 2nd round pick? I doubt one expiring contract plus David Lee would have brought Kobe or Garnett.

    Not sure what this is apropos of, but I just wanted to raise that point. I think the idea of stockpiling expiring contracts is a bit overrated, especially if you need to dispose of players that have value (and are also inexpensive). A player like Collins who makes 750k a year and has upside (I actually dont know what he makes, but I assume its in that range) is more valuable than an expiring contract.

    Expiring contracts are only valuable to teams trying to get under the salary cap so they can go after stud free agents. But cheap young players with upside are tradeable to anyone (because they rarely affect the salary cap that much).

    Just my two cents. Im also assuming here that if they kept Rose they would have had to cut Collins.

    I guess my point is that Collins right now probably has more value to the Knicks than Jalen Rose’s expriing contract would have. Rose’s contract was only valuable vis a vis a possible trade. Collins is far more valuable because he actually can be a good player for a Knick or can be a tradeable asset.

    My two cents.

  39. Brian M

    The value of a big expiring contract like Rose’s is that it allows you to match salaries in a trade. Collins by himself is actually not too valuable of a trading chip, insofar as his small salary limits what assets can be acquired for him. If you have the option of throwing in a larger, expiring contract (like Fred Jones’s) in a Collins package then you have more flexibility in what kind of player(s) you can get back without the contract dollars involved being an issue for the other team.

  40. jon abbey

    Steve Blake signs with Portland, I wonder if we can make another deal with them for a PG, even if it’s just Nichols for Taurean Green.

  41. Bernard King

    Brian, thats correct, but he has value insofar as he actually can play and has upside and people forget that teams actually are interested in acquiring players that can play and dont break the cap.

  42. jon abbey

    no, that was why they went to 15 a few years ago. before that, it was 12 and up to 3 on the injured list, this way people don’t have to pretend they’re injured. you can put someone in the NBDL or let them play in Europe, but only 15 guys under contract with the actual team at any time. that’s why Isiah hasn’t signed either rookie yet, although them being unsigned also leaves open the possibility they can be traded (once they’re signed, there’s either a 30 or 60 day window where they can’t be dealt, plus then their salaries count in a deal).

  43. Z

    Isiah also bought out Mo Taylor, which along with Jalen could have amounted to $20 million + in expiring contracts. But, by the time Kobe or Garnet came on the market, those contracts would have expired already. Who knows what would have been available at the deadline last Feb., though. Back then, though, the team goal was to get under the cap by ’09. Not quite sure what changed exactly, but along came Randolph.

  44. Z

    Portland just traded Nichols to us. Are they going to trade to get him back? Have we used up the Bulls’ well, and are now only going to tap Portland? Portland should hope so– look at the Bulls since we “fleeced them” of their top talent.

  45. jon abbey

    “Portland just traded Nichols to us. Are they going to trade to get him back? ”

    they didn’t know they’d get Blake then, Nichols is probably a better fit for their current personnel than Green is, they got drafted a few spots away from each other.

    anyway, just an idea, clearly Portland has too many PGs and we don’t have any who can really distribute…

  46. Donald Trump

    Saw an item on Hoopshype that the Knicks salary cap bill for ’06 is $45 million. That’s for a lottery team. The Isiah Thomas legacy plows on.

  47. Z

    Yeah– #2 was a distant $7 million tax (but at least it bought them 67 wins…).

    More than just a little embarrassing.

  48. Sean

    It amazes me how you guys complain over stuff we all already knew. It no news we were way over the cap an had to pay that money why the hell are we all acting surprised

  49. TDM

    Just read that Artest got suspended 7 games for his recent domestic violence charge. His trade value continues to plummet. I’m a big fan of his talent, but given his history of problems, I wouldn’t trade more than Jeffries and change for him. The first misstep by Artest next year, on or off the court, and he’ll likely be gone for the year again. Too risky.

  50. jon abbey

    “Saw an item on Hoopshype that the Knicks salary cap bill for ?06 is $45 million. That?s for a lottery team. The Isiah Thomas legacy plows on.”

    not Isiah, Dolan, Dolan, Dolan. he agreed to the game plan, he’s paying the bills, none of us need to care about this at all. and yes, we’d be a lot better off with almost any other owner, but he’s not going anywhere. no matter what you think of Isiah, he’s only a symptom. Dolan is the problem.

  51. Z

    Of course the Knicks huge payroll is not groundbreaking news, but when you see it printed, and the #2 payroll is sooooooo far back, it further compounds the frustration that this Knick fan feels.

    Dolan is certainly more to blame than Isiah, as is Layden, but the bang for Isiah’s buck simply isn’t there. His great contributions to the team are all dirt cheap draft picks. The money has been badly spent.

    And, just to keep things straight, Dolan pays the bills, but it does affect the fans. Knicks fans pay more for their team, but it also damages the integrity of the team. For the Yankees, 1998 was the sweetest because they dominated without having the highest payroll. Once the ceiling blew off on their payroll, they became a less legitimate team by nature.

    We have the payroll we have, and there is not too much that can be done about it, but as a fan, I’d feel better competitively winning with a payroll that is consistent with the rest of the league, especially considering we are not doing a lot of winning anyway.

  52. jon abbey

    “His great contributions to the team are all dirt cheap draft picks. The money has been badly spent.”

    some of those “dirt cheap” draft picks came because of the money that was spent. the pick for Balkman came from Toronto along with Jalen Rose, so while Balkman’s salary is “dirt cheap”, the pick wasn’t.

    I think all of that integrity stuff is way overblown too. the Yankees play by the rules of their league, and pay a big penalty for it, as do the Knicks. if you’re so concerned with fairness, stick to the hard cap of the NFL where the players are treated like disposable meat. also, move to a different country, since the US certainly doesn’t play by the same rules as the rest of the world.

  53. Z

    I’m not that concerned. It came up in the papers because of the rediculous disparity in salary management. But, being a Knick and Yankee fan, I’m sure you know how the rest of the league’s fans view these teams– and since the NBA is a game based on competition, I think there is something to be said for integrity, and we can acknowlege it, or pretend it doesn’t matter.

    As for leaving the country– nationbuilding, economic stability, and national security are not games based on competition. I don’t feel like the NBA trophy is a win-at-all-costs undertaking. I follow it mostly to feel good when the Knicks win. I’d rather not allow hated Bulls fans to brush off Knicks victories by being able to say “for $45 million in luxury tax, you should beat us”.

    And Balkman could have been had at a smaller cost than Rose, unless there were no other picks available to get that year, and Phoenix really was going to draft him at 21. The others all came via trades, but they were to get back picks already traded that were higher than the ones he used anyway.

  54. jon abbey

    “But, being a Knick and Yankee fan, I?m sure you know how the rest of the league?s fans view these teams? and since the NBA is a game based on competition, I think there is something to be said for integrity, and we can acknowlege it, or pretend it doesn?t matter.”

    integrity=playing by the rules. both the Yankees and the Knicks do that, luxury taxes are part of the system. it’s arguably more “unfair” for Portland to be awarded Oden semi-randomly, but that’s also part of the system. a truly fair system would have hard caps and no draft, each player goes where they want to. but that’s not the system in place.

    “nationbuilding, economic stability, and national security are not games based on competition. ”

    easy to say when you’re part of the perennial “champion”, albeit one that’s massively mortgaged its future. ask someone from a third world country how they feel about that sometime.

  55. Z

    I feel like we may be talking about two different things here. You’re confusing “fairness” with “integrity”. I never said fairness in any post. I said competition, of which integrity within has greater payoff, that is all.

    The analogy with US foreign policy is lost on me.

  56. Z

    Sorry for misinterpreting.

    I like the debate, though. Knick fans (like Yankee fans, and the United States for that matter) should be able to defend their teams and the way they conduct their business.

    My only real problem is that in the face of a critical league (or world body) the Yankees and the United States are seen as evil empires. The Knicks garner no such respect. If we’re going to double the payroll of every other team in the league, I’d like to at least be an evil empire and not just the butt of a joke.

    And I definitely blame Dolan and Layden more than Isiah. I just hoped that Isiah would be able to come in and fix it, which I guess still remains to be seen.

  57. tastycakes

    Sure, the Knicks play a different game than other teams when it comes to how much they are able to pay players. Overpaying by itself is not a problem, what’s a problem is that it cripples their ability to compete, both on the floor (because you have overpaid for talent that can’t seem to win) and more importantly, in the trade market (because you can’t get rid of losers like Marbury or Jeffries or Jerome James). That second problem compounds the first one, because being unable to move your dead weight (without waiving them) means we don’t even get a chance to see some of the young talent develop.

    I’m surprised nobody has talked about the Marbury interview yet (or perhaps I’ve missed it in another thread). For all the concern about David Lee’s minutes, and the logjam at the 3, and the battle for the post between Zach and Eddy … we still have a completely unreliable guy running our team on the floor in Stephon. That video didn’t really reveal anything new to me (except perhaps that Stephon got to know his sister’s body in a new way, whatever that might mean). It just revealed that the man is of questionable character, that he is perhaps a little mentally unstable, and that his priorities are out of whack. I don’t think he’s a bad human being or anything, I just look at his history on the floor and the effect that he has had on his teams, and I think this guy is the real issue blocking the team from greater success. As long as Stephon is running the offense, I don’t see the Knicks going anywhere in the playoffs. I know great point guards don’t exactly grow on trees, but an upgrade at the position could work wonders with all that talent we’ve got.

    And Isiah is too stubborn to do anything about the Marbury problem because his ego is so wrapped up in the players he anoints. I’m not a big Curry fan either, and though somebody in this thread insinuated that he might not be untouchable anymore, I think that’s bogus. Isiah has too much invested in him to make a change there.

    It should be an interesting year, and during these dark Dolan days, that’s about the best I can hope for!

  58. jon abbey

    “Sure, the Knicks play a different game than other teams when it comes to how much they are able to pay players.”

    Dallas and Portland, at least, are in the same league. Dallas has been doing it longer, and somewhat lucked into Nowitzki (I doubt they thought he’d ever be this good when they drafted him), then they got fiscally responsible, which is a lot easier to do when you have a genuine franchise player and when you don’t start with the ridiculous hole that Layden left us in. Portland has flat-out bought a few draft choices recently.

    but more to the point, Cuban and Paul Allen can certainly match Dolan dime for dime if they thought it was the way to go.

  59. tastycakes

    Spending the extra money IS a competitive advantage, and it is one that the Knicks squander! I don’t like football’s hard cap, and wouldn’t advocate it for basketball, but the Knicks might be better off if they were forced to consider fiscal constraints when making decisions. Instead, they get themselves into the position I was just describing — with a bunch of overpaid veterans that nobody else would touch. Overpaying by itself is not the problem, it’s the second-order consequences that are the problem.

  60. Ricky Tan

    Man, we have some awesome talent next year. The only issue is whether we can make it mesh…I would love it if Curry were traded – start Randolph Morris in place of him and we got some shot-blocking in there and give Zach Randolph tons of room to operate in the low post, where he anyways is MUCH more effective than Curry. You can have Balkman at the 3 and Marbury and Jamal Crawford in the backcourt. This way we’ve got scoring in there and defense as well. Curry can come of the bench with Quentin and Nate Rob…We really have a shot at the East this year!

  61. mase

    If I were Isiah I would clean up the roster and try to get these young guys minutes(Chandler, Nicholls, Nate, Balk, Collins, Lee!!!). Dump the one-dimesional overpaid guys like Marbury, Curry, Crawfish, etc…
    Put Zach and a bunch of no-names, Im bored with the ‘superstars without talent’ team he has complied.

    …which means that Isiah will probably do the exact opposite and trade most of them away for Ron Artest or Stephen Jackson.

  62. JoseKwervo

    Exactly the way I feel, the way to get to around
    65mil salary range by 09/10 is first of all not to trade young good and cheap talent for guys like artest who have option of walking after 1 year and then you have to resign them at major bucks. he is not a difference maker on this team and doesn’t even understand the concept of team.
    Here’s how to get to about 65 mil by 09/10:
    First lets begin the projected 09/10 salary according to hoopshype which is around 58 mil.

    1) let contracts like Marbury, Rose, run their time and don’t resign. Curry and Crawford contracts; don’t renegotiate.
    2) buy out james and rose to give Morris, Taz and Wilson more playing time. subtract
    3) release the two players in the portland trade so that collins, nichols and nate get more experience.
    4)Draft/freeagent sign backup point guard at the 1-3 mil range cause marbury will be gone. if all the pt guard is doing is feeding eddie or zach and plays defense then all you need is a generic point guard.

    some small minor issues which you capoligist might have noticed: one is Randolph Morris has to be resigned at some salary so lets say for a decent back up center about 3mil.
    two- curry can option out for a bigger salary
    but with Zach and Morris I say c-u-later eddie
    wich then would free up 10.5 mil
    three- Lee and Balkman salaries will have to be bumped up a bit especialy Lee lets say 6mil between the two. Last the Chandler W. and Nichols salary yet unknow, about 2mil for the 23rd and 53 pick, maybe I’m off a bit here.

  63. JoseKwervo

    The way to get out of salary cap hell by 09/10 is first of all not to trade young good and cheap talent for guys like artest who have option of walking after 1 year and then you have to resign them at major bucks. he is not a difference maker on this team and doesn’t even understand the concept of team.
    Here’s how to get to about 65 mil by 09/10:
    First lets begin with the existing salaries according to hoopshype which is around 58 mil.(09/10)

    1) Don’t resign Marbury, Rose, and don’t renegotiate Craw and Curry
    2) buy out james and rose to give Morris, Taz and Wilson more playing time. subtract 6 mil from 09/10 for james’ buyout- counts against 08/09
    3) release the two players in the portland trade so that collins, nichols and nate get more experience.

    some small minor issues which you capoligist might have noticed: one is Randolph Morris has to be resigned at some salary so lets say for a decent back up center about 3mil.
    two- curry can opt out for a bigger salary
    but with Zach and Morris I say c-u-later eddie
    wich then would free up 10.5 mil
    three- Lee and Balkman salaries will have to be bumped up a bit especialy Lee lets say 6mil between the two. Last the Chandler W. and Nichols salaries yet unknown, about 4 mil for the 23rd and 53 pick, maybe I’m off a bit here.
    add it all up 58mil -6(james) +3(morris) plus 4 (wilson and nichols) + 6 (balkman,team option and lee qualifing offer) = 65mil
    nate, collins, craw, Q, nichols,lee, zach, curry, morris,balkman,wilson and jeffreeze. 3 more spots available for draft picks or minor free agent signings.
    Back to my Tru Wariur cd.

  64. Brian Cronin

    Oh man!!

    Guess what guys?!!? David Lee is not as good as Hall of Famer Dave DeBusschere!! That stunning pronouncement has rocked me to my very core!!

  65. JoseKwervo

    “What Randolph Morris Means to the Knicks
    “Sports ? A day after I praised Knicks coach Isiah Thomas for the splendid job he’s done this season with an injury-riddled team, the guy goes and completely outdoes himself – he basically gets a first-round pick without giving up anything. Yes, Kentucky’s Randolph Morris was going to be a first-round pick in this June’s NBA draft. And the Knicks got him for…”
    salary at 810k 1yr, and by the way doing well in the summer league. center / pf

  66. Caleb

    guess what… David Lee’s extension will be $10 mil a year, easy.

    also buyouts don’t save bupkus against the cap.

    we are hopelessy over through 2010-2011. At least we didn’t sign Rashard Lewis.

  67. Santana

    JoseKwervo, you’ve definitely have been drinking too much tequila if you think that plan is possible.

    a) Stephon will resign with the team, probably for the veterans minimum(about 2mil). seeing that he’s a nyc guy and has a good relationship with Zeke, its gonna happen.

    Rose will either retire or be traded in 08/09 for picks and a player with a longer contract.

    Crawford and Curry both have player options for 09/10. Crawford will exercise that right simply because he’s a streaky shooter that plays no defense, and any agent with a brain will tell him that no team will give him more than 10 mil a year as a free agent. Curry will opt out for a max contract. Morris’s development will determine if Curry is given a max deal by the knicks. If curry wants to go somewhere else, expect Zeke to do a sign&trade.

    b)I’m not sure about NBA contract specifics, but if a player is cut, I assume we still need to pay for his options year(s). James’ contract is through 08/09 with a player option for 09/10, cutting him doesnt mean we are free from paying him for the option we gave him.

    c)I agree, cut the losers from portland.

    d)Morris will resign for one more year, giving him a total of 3 years. He will then look to sign a long term deal. If he is able to play like he did in the summer league, expect something starting around 6mil a year on the long term contract.

    e)When Lee is resigned, his salary for 09/10 will be at the very least 7mil. Balkman’s extension will begin in 10/11.

    f) Assuming we keep our next 2 1st round picks, 3mil should cover both of them.

    I’m too tired to do the math, but its definitely way over the cap. I cant wait for the season. Lee is the man, but balkman is playing on a different planet right now, he should be starting.

    oh to the guy who posted “Who is Randolph Morris and what can he do?”….Jesus F**KING Christ! Have you read knick’s article in the last 4-5 months?!?

  68. jon abbey

    wow, let’s talk about the 2014-2015 roster next.

    back in the real world, we finished a 5-0 summer league today, Nate got MVP of the league even though Balkman was probably the MVP of the team. Morris, Chandler, Nichols all looked very promising, a shame Mardy couldn’t play, but I’m more optimistic about our roster than I’ve been in a long time. now let’s see if they can actually win some games…

  69. Frank

    Just saw the Stephon interview– don’t you think he was talking about his daughter and not his sister? I dunno… was weird in any case.

    Meanwhile, I think it’s extremely unlikely that Stephon is going anywhere — he’ll retire a Knick. And that’s fine with me. He’s matured as a player for sure, and even though he’s got weaknesses, I see him as sort of a tragic figure just like Ewing and Starks etc… he loves the Knicks so much and they’ve only been bad since he got here. And even if they become good, it’ll probably be when he’s a supporting player and not the star that he thought he was going to be in NY. Plus, he does a ton of stuff in the community — $4 million donated to NYPD/FDNY/EMS/Teachers? Thousands of free shoes and t-shirts etc. for the kids of Coney Island? Very few of these spoiled multimillionaires give back to this extent.

  70. Bernard King

    Having watched a great deal of all 5 Summer League games, Im just not getting all the manlove here for Brian Greene. Seems an okay player with no athleticism. He is the epitome of a 10th man type — a spot player who does some nice little things, but nothing to really to stand out. This type of player is usually seen on bad teams that find cheap players to round out their rosters. I just dont see why anyone here would lobby for this guy to make the squad over any of our current players.

  71. Brian Cronin

    I figure you sorta have to give MVP to Nate. Dude’s a freakin’ THIRD YEAR player who averaged over 20 minutes a game last year – so him getting Summer League MVP is a nice little bonus for having to participate in the Summer League at all.

  72. TDM

    Nate did impress with his passing and shooting, but he still had a few bonehead plays tonight. He tried to split the defense one too many times causing turnovers. Another time, he passed the ball straight out of bounds without anyone in the area.

    I loved the way Nichols took over in the 3rd. He could be the outside threat the Knicks need to take some pressure off of Curry/Zebo. Morris had another solid double-double, with some emphatic blocks. He looked great. Too bad he won’t get much time this year.

    Its a shame that the Knicks summer squad couldn’t play the Mavs in some sort of playoff. The Nuggets were 3-1 before tonight with the only loss to the Mavs.

    As an aside, how much pain do you think Kobe was feeling when he was watching Von Wafer filling up the basket tonight. The guy put up 40+ points with ease. The Lakers drafted him in the 2nd round a couple years ago, I think, but may have given up on him too soon. Everything that guy put up went down tonight.

  73. Z

    “wow, let?s talk about the 2014-2015 roster next.”

    Hey, since the front office doesn’t think long term, Santana may as well.

    Short term we can only bask in stomping through the summer league en route to 40 wins in the real season.

  74. retropkid

    Of course it is just summer league, but these kids can play…we may have the best bench in the East…highly active group. If they can manage down turnovers, our bench could be +5 points a game or better vs. opponents bench — easily worth 5-7 more wins.

  75. iyamwutiam

    I am going to be the contrarian here. And I hope people will note – that I think Curry will have an EVEN better year this year -surpassing 24 pts/ 7 rebounds as an ‘average’. I think Curry is the real deal – maybe not in the league of Duncan/Shaq etc but definitely a valuable player. Plus even though he does have an opt out year – I think he will sign a decent deal with the Knicks.

    2. I don’t think Randolph will average a double/double but his scoring numbers will be down and he will not be a 20/10 guy but we win more games.

    3. Marbury – if he signs a cap friendly contract thats fine – but I think he got his money – and the real reason for him being here – was to fill the seats till the players developed – and they have. He and the players listed below are all trade bait since their contracts are over 2010/2011 – so I do see a sign and trade for Marbury + some other players – for a Kobe/KG etc.
    More on that later.

    4. Q and J James also expire 2010/2011 and so in effect the Knicks could package close to 35M in expiring salaries for a premier player – especially Kobe!!

    5. Lee, Nate and Morris are priorities after this season. I still don’t think Lee is a 10M/year player when Ginobli is getting 8M/year. I would like to see a two year extension at MAX 6M/per – with less going to Robinson and a minimum going to Morris.

    I have a feeling that all these machinations are leading to signing Kobe over the summer or KG – basically next year when Le Bron etc come out – the knicks have a tremendous chip with 35 Million in expiring contracts.

    GO KNICKS

  76. Z

    “I still don?t think Lee is a 10M/year player when Ginobli is getting 8M/year.”

    I don’t think either of them should make more than Wilt, Kareem, or Dr. J, but inflation tends to skew such comparisons. Lee needs to sign on ’09, and if his sophomore season wasn’t a fluke and his agent is properly disreputable he will be able to command more than a player of his ilk could have several years ago.

  77. Z

    “I have a feeling that all these machinations are leading to signing Kobe over the summer or KG – basically next year when Le Bron etc come out – the knicks have a tremendous chip with 35 Million in expiring contracts.”

    These “expiring contracts” don’t expire for a long time. They are not really useful for dealing this summer. Are you saying wait until 2011 and trade the pacts for Kobe? He’ll be 33 years old with 15 years of rugged NBA play on his body.

    I guess that’s not really “contrarian”, seeing as that’s pretty consistent with the way the Knicks do business…

  78. Jose

    Sabtana, thanks for the follow up

    some points; I think your right about the James contract, so add about 6.6 mil to 09/10, crawford
    though might test the seatle market but you are probably right there too.
    I wouldn’t resign Marbury because of age and
    I’m really high on Collins plus the way the offense is designed you just need a some one who plays good defense and has a good assist/to numbers. subtract 5mil
    If you let curry walk thats 10.5 to go to
    the Morris, Lee and Balkman contracts
    that falls within the 65-70 mil range roughly for 09/10. But we’ll have young experienced team and based on the way they tore up this summer league,
    the potentials of a Chanler Nichols and Morris, I’ll go with that.

  79. mase

    nate was mvp!!!
    too bad we can’t afford to keep him on the roster since we have too many holes to fill. but his trade value is up so thats good.

    in my mind their are several players on our roster who are all the same defensive
    liabilities/non-team players and Nate is just one of them. Isiah has assembled the most un-likeable/un-watchable roster, we are the new ‘jail-blazers’.
    the guy doesnt get it!

  80. A-Spen

    I say at let marberry/nate share point. Same with Q/Crawford. In beginning of season look 2 c who produses more and trade Q or Crawford(1 who produces less) put balkman at SF and randolph and Curry in paint. If the 2 bigs dont work out trade whichever gets best offer and produces less on court. Off bench you get D. Lee as 6th man and Morris and chandler (need 2 develop more) 2 spell the big men and Nichols 4 some offense. Look to trade Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Fred Jones and maybe Dan Dickau 2 open up room on the roster before the season starts. I say play the young guys. the more they play, the better they get. Any comments on my thinking?

  81. Sean

    hey guys before we all fall in love with some of these young guys im a give you a name of A player who everyone once called the point guard of the future FRANK WILLIAMS. So lets all stop the noise about Collins can start and nate can spit time truth is weather you like Marbury or not the team is under control when he out there less turnovers when hes running the offense cant say that for Crawford Nate or Collins

  82. A-Spen

    thats true but marberry has much more experience than collins/nate. i have nothing against marberry but sometimes he sinks under pressure and i dont think NYC is the best place 4 him. If Nate or collins got more playing time and got more experience they mite develop into that player that can slow down or speed up the game and run the point well. I think the best player Crawford will b is a good of the bench shooting gaurd that could put up 10-15 points per. He’s 2 streaky 2 b a starter. Also i dont think his payroll matches his ability and him playing the point is out of the books cause he puts up 2 many shots and doesn’t pass on shots as much as he should.

  83. Z

    “sometimes he sinks under pressure”

    He’s never really played under pressure. He’s done what, 1 playoff series in his career? I think he played well in it too, but either way, I wouldn’t say he sinks under pressure yet. Let’s get him in the situation, then say it.

  84. Z

    “1 playoff series in his career.”

    Yes, I’m quoting myself. I realized I was wrong as I was pressing submit comment. I forgot he played 4 games against the Nets in ’04 too.

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