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Wednesday, November 26, 2014

Similarity Scores For The New Knicks

Amar’e Stoudemire

z-Sum FLName Year Tm PER TS eFG PTS ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV
.000 Amare Stoudemire 2010 PHO 22.6 61.5 55.7 24.1 2.9 9.3 1.0 0.7 1.1 2.7
.134 Kevin McHale 1985 BOS 20.7 61.7 57.0 21.2 3.1 9.7 1.9 0.4 1.6 2.1
.206 Rik Smits 1994 IND 19.7 58.0 53.4 20.9 2.3 8.2 2.7 0.8 1.4 2.6
.235 Karl Malone 1991 UTA 24.8 59.6 52.8 26.0 2.6 10.5 2.9 1.0 0.9 2.7
.236 Andres Nocioni 2007 CHI 15.6 57.8 53.6 19.2 1.1 7.7 1.5 0.7 0.6 2.7
.243 Alonzo Mourning 1998 MIA 22.4 59.5 55.1 20.7 3.6 10.4 1.0 0.7 2.4 3.3
.247 Buck Williams 1988 NJN 18.2 60.3 56.1 17.5 4.1 11.4 1.5 0.9 0.6 2.6
.258 Armen Gilliam 1992 PHI 18.0 57.5 51.1 17.8 3.0 8.6 1.5 0.7 1.1 2.2
.273 Darryl Dawkins 1984 NJN 17.6 64.1 59.4 20.2 2.4 8.1 1.8 0.9 2.0 3.4
.274 Dirk Nowitzki 2006 DAL 28.1 58.9 51.5 25.1 1.3 8.5 2.6 0.7 1.0 1.8
.278 Chris Gatling 1995 GSW 19.5 64.0 63.3 19.5 3.5 10.8 1.2 1.0 1.3 2.9

His most similar players are McHale and Smits which gives you a good idea of Stoudemire; he’s somewhere between a Hall of Famer and a borderline All Star. Neither of them were great rebounders, although you could argue that McHale’s defense separates him from the three. There are some great players on this list, ones you could build a team around. But I, nor anyone else, think Amar’e is a player of that magnitude. Instead he’s a flawed All Star who needs a second one to get his team deep into the playoffs.

Raymond Felton

z-Sum FLName Year Tm PER TS eFG PTS ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV
.000 Raymond Felton 2010 CHA 15.2 52.5 49.4 13.2 0.7 3.9 6.1 1.7 0.3 2.3
.036 John Starks 1991 NYK 14.3 51.1 47.2 14.3 0.9 4.0 6.3 1.8 0.5 2.3
.048 Rex Walters 1996 TOT 12.8 54.4 48.6 11.0 0.8 3.2 6.3 1.5 0.2 2.4
.052 Bimbo Coles 1994 MIA 13.0 51.0 46.8 12.3 1.0 3.3 5.5 1.6 0.3 2.2
.054 Chris Whitney 1997 WSB 15.2 56.6 50.9 13.9 0.4 3.4 5.9 1.6 0.1 2.2
.061 Brent Barry 1997 LAC 15.0 52.6 48.3 14.5 1.0 3.6 5.1 1.7 0.5 2.5
.061 Billy McKinney 1981 TOT 13.3 56.2 50.9 13.6 0.6 3.1 6.0 1.6 0.2 2.6
.063 Lorenzo Romar 1984 TOT 14.8 50.1 46.4 13.8 0.7 3.3 6.8 1.9 0.3 2.2
.064 Steve Colter 1988 TOT 12.8 50.1 46.4 11.5 1.4 4.1 6.2 1.5 0.3 2.1
.068 Luke Ridnour 2007 SEA 13.7 50.9 46.8 13.4 0.5 2.8 6.3 1.4 0.3 2.7
.070 Jason Williams 2001 SAC 12.8 49.8 47.8 11.3 0.3 2.9 6.5 1.5 0.1 2.5

Not exactly an impressive list, although Knick fans will like the person situated at #1. For the most optimistic Knick fans, this list should lower expectations a bit. Felton isn’t the second star New Yorkers were hoping for, but perhaps after two years of Chris Duhon the bar has been lowered considerably.

Anthony Randolph

z-Sum FLName Year Tm PER TS eFG PTS ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV
.000 Anthony Randolph 2010 GSW 18.7 52.1 44.5 18.5 3.5 10.3 2.0 1.3 2.5 2.4
.193 Joe Smith 1996 GSW 17.2 52.3 46.3 16.0 3.8 9.1 1.0 1.1 1.7 1.8
.200 Elton Brand 2000 CHI 20.6 52.8 48.2 19.5 4.2 9.7 1.9 0.8 1.6 2.7
.219 Shawn Kemp 1990 SEA 15.9 53.1 48.1 16.9 4.7 11.1 0.8 1.5 2.3 3.4
.226 Tyrus Thomas 2007 CHI 14.8 52.1 47.5 13.9 3.3 10.0 1.5 1.7 2.8 3.5
.230 Tracy McGrady 2000 TOR 20.0 50.9 46.0 17.7 2.7 7.3 3.8 1.3 2.2 2.3
.236 Kevin Garnett 1997 MIN 18.2 53.7 50.2 15.7 2.3 7.4 2.8 1.3 2.0 2.1
.257 Josh Smith 2006 ATL 15.5 50.0 44.7 12.7 2.5 7.5 2.7 0.9 2.9 2.3
.258 Chris Bosh 2005 TOR 17.5 54.7 47.2 16.2 2.3 8.6 1.8 0.9 1.3 2.2
.278 Amare Stoudemire 2003 PHO 16.2 53.0 47.3 15.5 3.5 10.1 1.1 0.9 1.2 2.6
.298 Andrei Kirilenko 2002 UTA 18.8 55.3 47.0 14.7 2.5 6.7 1.6 1.9 2.7 1.8

To steal an analogy from Kevin McElroy, if Randolph is the fruit of David Lee’s labor then Walsh got a damn ripe piece here. What’s not to like about a 21 year old who is most similar to a bunch of All Stars? This move is reminiscent of when New York acquired Marcus Camby. Both of them were highly regarded on draft night (Camby much more so), and it seemed that both of their teams gave up on them too early. Camby became known for his shot blocking and rebounding, but he had hyalophobic tendencies early on. In fact comparing the two players after their second season (Camby didn’t come into the league until he was 22 years old), Randolph is superior with regards to rebounding and scoring. It goes without saying that a 21 year old has room to grow, but if Randolph can improve his efficiency then just like with Camby, New York will have a real steal on their hands.

Kelenna Azubuike

z-Sum FLName Year Tm PER TS eFG PTS ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV
.000 Kelenna Azubuike 2009 GSW 14.7 56.2 52.0 16.1 1.7 5.6 1.8 0.9 0.8 1.4
.035 Brian Cook 2006 LAL 15.6 57.8 54.6 15.1 2.1 6.4 1.7 0.9 0.8 1.4
.062 Rashard Lewis 2005 SEA 19.4 57.1 53.7 19.4 1.5 5.2 1.3 1.0 0.8 1.6
.064 David West 2006 NOK 19.7 55.4 51.3 18.0 2.4 7.8 1.3 0.9 0.9 1.5
.068 Kyle Korver 2007 PHI 14.2 56.9 51.8 16.8 0.5 4.1 1.7 0.9 0.3 1.8
.070 Pat Garrity 2002 ORL 12.3 55.3 53.7 13.2 1.2 5.1 1.5 0.9 0.4 1.0
.070 Hakim Warrick 2008 MEM 16.2 55.5 51.2 17.5 2.5 7.3 1.1 0.7 0.6 1.7
.075 Wally Szczerbiak 2003 MIN 17.3 56.7 52.3 17.9 1.0 4.7 2.7 0.9 0.4 1.7
.078 DerMarr Johnson 2006 DEN 11.7 54.5 52.3 13.8 0.7 3.7 2.1 1.0 1.0 1.8
.080 Wesley Person 1997 PHO 15.9 56.7 54.8 16.7 1.1 4.5 1.9 1.3 0.3 1.2
.080 James Jones 2006 PHO 13.2 55.1 51.3 14.2 0.9 5.1 1.2 0.8 1.0 0.7

I’m going to use Azubuike’s 2009 stats, considering he played only 9 games in 2010 due to injury. There are some impressive sharpshooters (Lewis, Korver, Szczerbiak) and forwards (Garrity, Lewis, West) which means that Kelenna is an efficient scorer and strong rebounder for his size. D’Antoni’s love of the long ball and Azubuike’s three point percentage of 40.9% seem like an ideal of match. Consider that Wilson Chandler is a 6-8 forward mascerading as shooting guard who hits three pointers at 10% less, and it isn’t hard envisioning Azubuike replacing him in the starting lineup. Perhaps the only thing stopping Kelenna is his recovery from last year’s injury.

Ronny Turiaf

z-Sum FLName Year Tm PER TS eFG PTS ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV
.000 Ronny Turiaf 2010 GSW 12.6 57.4 58.2 8.5 2.2 7.9 3.7 0.9 2.2 2.0
.224 Will Perdue 1993 CHI 14.8 57.8 55.7 12.3 3.7 10.4 2.7 0.8 1.7 2.7
.296 Bo Outlaw 1999 ORL 12.8 53.5 54.5 8.6 2.3 7.1 2.4 1.7 1.8 2.5
.302 Brad Lohaus 1992 MIL 15.0 54.0 52.9 13.6 2.2 8.3 2.5 1.3 2.4 1.5
.318 John Salley 1992 DET 14.7 57.0 51.2 13.9 2.2 6.0 2.4 1.0 2.2 2.1
.364 Brad Miller 2004 SAC 19.4 57.9 51.8 13.9 2.6 10.2 4.3 0.9 1.2 2.0
.369 Kermit Washington 1979 SDC 15.0 60.3 56.2 12.1 3.9 10.4 1.6 1.1 1.6 2.4
.369 Vlade Divac 1996 LAL 17.4 54.4 51.5 14.9 2.9 9.9 3.8 1.1 1.9 2.9
.390 Mike Green 1979 SAS 12.9 52.8 49.3 12.5 2.9 7.8 2.5 0.8 2.7 2.0
.391 Shane Battier 2006 MEM 14.7 57.4 54.0 10.4 2.1 5.4 1.7 1.2 1.4 1.1
.403 Boris Diaw 2010 CHA 12.8 55.2 52.5 11.5 1.6 5.3 4.0 0.7 0.7 2.2

Turiaf has an odd mix of strong shotblocking, weak rebounding, miniscule scoring volume, and good passing. Hence why there aren’t a lot of similar players. I liked him in college, but at this point he’s strictly bench material. Teaming Turiaf with Stoudemire might bring tears to hyalophiles, but alongside Randolph they should make the paint on 32nd street an unfriendly place for the first time in a decade.

91 comments on “Similarity Scores For The New Knicks

  1. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Off topic note:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AlHknP6Ct11DxleswKrMVa68vLYF?slug=ap-cavaliers-lowry

    The Rockets had seven days to match Cleveland’s offer, but Morey saw no reason to wait.

    “We like to let the player know as soon as possible, just so he doesn’t start thinking about playing for another team,” Morey said.

    Is that a shot against Orlando? Last year, the Mavs signed Gortat to an offer sheet, and the Magic waited until the last day to match so they could steal Bass.

  2. Kevin McElroy

    The fact that we brought back this haul when the Warriors should have known we were letting Lee walk one way or the other is still stupefying to me. This must be how other teams felt when they made trades with the Knicks the last 10 years.

  3. supernova

    Great write up! This analysis confirms some of the positives others have been bringing to light in regards to Randolph. He truly might be a steal in the long run. He certainly does seem to have a tremendous upside.

    @2 Agreed. To think we could of easily come up with nothing for Lee, says a lot about Walsh. Except for Miami, I think you could argue the Knicks have had the best offseason.

  4. DS

    Mike –

    If you’re willing to take into account Z-Sum scores above .200 for the big men can’t you find some players within a .200 Z-Sum score of Felton that would provide some more encouragement? Or is there a reason why that would be faulty analysis for guards?

    Sincerely,
    The Overly Optimistic DS

  5. Caleb

    It’s interesting to see that there are many players similar to the guards, and even the similar ones are not so close to the big guys.

    fwiw, that is a very impressive list for Randolph.

    re: Houston and Lowry, it’s an interesting balance. The counter-argument – the “Otis Smith theory” – is that you might discourage teams from making offers, if you make it painful for them – tie up their cap money for a week, and keep them from pursuing Plan Bs or Cs.

    I actually think Otis has the right idea… I’d tell the player and his agent we are going to match, even taunt the other team publically… but not sign the papers for a week.

  6. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    When I watched highlight videos of Randolph, I immediately thought, “Oh my god. That’s Shawn Kemp without Shawn Kemp biceps and shoulders.”

    These lists make me feel very good about the upcoming season, but, of course, will these players get enough time to make a difference? Will Randolph be given the 35 mpg he deserves? Will Toney Douglas sit behind Felton, even when Felton is turning the ball over once every six possessions? Will Fields warm the bench all season at the 9-slot, only rising for garbage time against the Heat? D’antoni’s track record isn’t promising.

    And Josh Childress for a second-round pick? Mark my words: Bill Simmons will write 10,000 words on the Ewing Theory with respect to Amar’e and the Suns when the latter replaces the former’s contributed wins with a younger, cheaper player that they obtained for practically nothing.

  7. Caleb

    Suns will be interesting… on total talent, they didn’t come out that bad.. Turkoglu, Childress and Warrick is a lot of production. But you can’t have all those guys on court, at once. And they have zero in the low post.

    My guess is the Suns’ old guys hang on enough to get them in the playoffs for a 1st round exit.

  8. Z

    Personally, I think Morey should take the full week mulling Cleveland’s offer, then make his “Decision” live on ESPN.

  9. David Crockett

    Duhon definitely lowered the bar, but Felton for me is all about the contract. It’s smart to pay the premium for a low-risk deal. It’s basically Ridnour’s deal at 2 years instead of 4. At the outside, there are reasons to believe that his 2009 shooting is sustainable. So this is the anti-Chris Childs deal. As long as Felton plays to career form, as about a league average player (if you factor in defense), he’ll be an asset *because* of his deal.

    If the alternative was Ridnour at 4 years? No thanks. The only other interesting deal out there was Farmar’s who is getting 3 years and $12M. I really like Farmar, who is two years younger with playoff pedigree, but his performance has been much more volatile.

  10. Mike Kurylo Post author

    DS: Mike –
    If you’re willing to take into account Z-Sum scores above .200 for the big men can’t you find some players within a .200 Z-Sum score of Felton that would provide some more encouragement? Or is there a reason why that would be faulty analysis for guards?Sincerely,
    The Overly Optimistic DS  

    I’m not sure if it’s a guard/forward thing with respect to the similarities. With Amar’e – great players usually have lower similarity scores. With Randolph – he’s only 20 years old and there aren’t a lot of players for him to be compared to. And Turiaf is pretty much off the charts. Great assists & blocks, bad rebounding & scoring?

    I list the top 10 similar players, regardless of score. The z-sum is there to indicate how close the players are. Look at high nearly identical Felton & Starks are, while Randolph has nearly double the assist rate of his closest comparable. That’s a significant (enough) difference.

  11. Frank

    Kevin McElroy: The fact that we brought back this haul when the Warriors should have known we were letting Lee walk one way or the other is still stupefying to me.This must be how other teams felt when they made trades with the Knicks the last 10 years.  

    Well – the Warriors had no chance of getting him except through sign-and-trade. If media reports could be believed, Donnie had multiple offers for a Lee S/T so perhaps there was a bidding war? I guess teams will pay a lot for a guy when they drop a 37/20/10 triple double on them.

  12. Z

    Frank:
    I guess teams will pay a lot for a guy when they drop a 37/20/10 triple double on them.  

    …and 37 pts, 21 rebounds against them the year before too…

  13. Frank

    Z:
    …and 37 pts, 21 rebounds against them the year before too…  

    LOL – if only the new Warrior David Lee could play against his own team’s defense every night!

  14. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Frank:
    LOL – if only the new Warrior David Lee could play against his own team’s defense every night!  

    Against himself? That would be the irresistible force vs the frictionless object.

  15. Ted Nelson

    Kevin McElroy: The fact that we brought back this haul when the Warriors should have known we were letting Lee walk one way or the other is still stupefying to me.This must be how other teams felt when they made trades with the Knicks the last 10 years.  

    It was a good play by Walsh, but at the same time as Frank said the ONLY way for the Warriors to get David Lee was a s&t. Apparently the Warriors wanted Lee badly enough (and didn’t want the guys they gave up badly enough) that they wanted to do this. They’re getting/got? new ownership, and rumors were they wanted to start pretty fresh.

    Along with other Lee s&ts the Knicks could have still used their cap space to get other players (even Lee), so it wasn’t really Randolph/Turiaf/Azu vs. nothing. It was those 3 vs. everything else they could get with Lee or cap space. For the Warriors it was strictly Lee vs. the 3 (plus future cap space).

  16. Ted Nelson

    Those are single season comparisons, right? If that’s the similarity to Felton’s wildly best career year, what’s the comparison to his bad seasons?
    David, why do you say he can continue his career year scoring the ball?

  17. Ted Nelson

    Basically, at this point I’d call the Lee s&t a win-win. Knicks had little use for Lee after signing Amare and got 3 good players–one with tons of upside–with good contracts in return. Win. Warriors had good depth (when healthy), but Lee is an upgrade, a sure thing, and an All-Star at a pretty reasonable price. I think he fits great with what they’re doing, with both Steph Curry and Biedrins/Udoh. Win. Might not end up a win for both sides in hindsight, but I would make the trade in either team’s position. (I might not have dumped Maggette for nothing and let Morrow walk… but… the Lee trade I’d make.)

    The difference between this deal and the Knicks ’00s deals is that the Warriors got a good player and didn’t take back bad contracts to do it… so a lot.

  18. ryansiriusxm

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  19. Caleb

    Ted Nelson: Those are single season comparisons, right? If that’s the similarity to Felton’s wildly best career year, what’s the comparison to his bad seasons?

    I don’t know how to run these scores but I wouldn’t expect the comparison group to change that much. Felton’s 2009-2010 wasn’t different from his previous seasons in most stat categories, just shooting efficiency (admittedly, an important one). Fwiw, in the season compared above, his PER is the highest of the group. That barely factors in defense, and Felton is far better on D than most of that group (except, maybe, Starks). So I’m not sure what to make of it – based on PER and defense he looks a solid #1 in that group. In his best season, at least.

    p.s. Nice quote feature!

  20. Caleb

    There is definitely logic in the trade, on the Warrior side. You could call it an even swap for them on talent, maybe even better.

    But… it looks like they bid against themselves; I doubt the Knicks got any offer remotely as good as Randolph, not to mention the “throw-ins” with actual value. At last report, Lee was considering going to the Nets, in a trade for Zero. The T-Wolves were offering Al Jefferson or Ramon Sessions, not Rubio. etc.

  21. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Ryan:

    You have failed the terms of registering on this site that you agreed to. According to those terms:

    “Failing to do so may require you to appear before me, at a place of my choosing and at your own cost, present me with a sum of money of my choosing, and allow me to give you one swift kick in your rear. You will agree to this kick and promise that I am not liable for any damage to you or your property by this said kick. ”

    So according to the terms of our agreement, you must meet me in front of the Army Recruiter at Times Square, NYC tomorrow (Friday July 16th) at noon with $10,000 so that we can proceed with your kick.

    I’ll see you then.

    Mike

  22. Ted Nelson

    Caleb

    re: 20
    His defense does provide value. Still, he’s a glorified Anthony Johnson (when Johnson was younger). Sure, he’s better but not that much. He’s a back-up PG: defensive specialist who doesn’t totally kill your offense but doesn’t help it either. This was a light PG year, but those guys can still be had at 1/2 Felton’s price. He got the money because of his college success and athleticism. I really don’t see much improvement on Duhon… but hopefully I’m wrong and Felton fits D’Antoni’s system to the point where he’s more productive or is just a late bloomer. Reminds me a lot of Duhon as a best-available overpay with college pedigree linked to the Knicks brass, mediocre player, the hope he’ll magically improve in this system, and the likelihood D’Antoni plays him huge minutes because he’s the only “real PG” despite guys behind him seriously outplaying him.

    His PER was never above 13.8 before this season, and that would have put him right in the middle of that underwhelming group. His eFG% was always around .440 before last season, which would have put him way at the bottom of the group. His career high in TS% was .500, which also would have put him a tick above the bottom. His defense gives him more value than most of the comparables, but a lot of them had very little value in the referenced season. (Starks played in a different era.) We’re talking Barry’s 2nd NBA season and Williams’ 3rd… both improved considerable before becoming legitimate rotation players. I guess we just have to hope Felton is a late bloomer, too. It’s certainly possible.

    re: 21
    Knicks had leverage in that they could let Lee walk and preserve cap space. Knicks could have added 3 rotation players with the cap space, even someone like Mahinmi with something close to Randolph upside. Lee had other offers above the MLE. Warriors had to go through the Knicks and bid against both their cap space and Lee’s other pursuers (don’t forget that AJ just went for huge cap space and 2 1st round picks to “become a pillar of the Jazz organization”… I’m thrilled the Knicks didn’t get him, but he has some value around the league among those who don’t look at stats/watch basketball and those who think his potential is still untapped and underutilized). The most baffling thing about the trades Isiah made is that no one seemed interested in the players he traded for (Curry and Crawford) above the MLE (he didn’t have an MLE in the Curry case, but that was his fault for overpaying Jerome James when again he probably wasn’t worth more than the bi-annual exception). The Warriors got Lee at pretty fair market value and had to go through the Knicks to do so. The Warriors probably could have included a Radmonovic or Gadzuric expiring instead of who they did, but maybe they couldn’t make the numbers work.

  23. Caleb

    @23 re: Felton, I will say that you are underestimating the variation in value on the defensive side, and leave it at that.

    @23 re: Golden State, if letting Lee walk was a real possibility – and I think it was – the Warriors could have gotten him by offering far less than they did. Nothing against Ian Mahinmi but I don’t think he’s in the same class as Randolph, as a prospect. I can’t think of anyone on a rookie contract with more potential than Randolph – at least, on a team willing to give him up. Anyway, it wasn’t a terrible trade for the Warriors but I would say they were poor poker players. Unlike, say, Houston. (which somehow got all three of our picks, while Sacramento got none of them. How did Sacto fall into that?)

    Meanwhile, a good review for (draft pick) #39:

    “Landry Fields, G, New York Knicks
    When he first steps onto the court and when he walks off of it at game’s end, the perceptions of Fields changes dramatically. He looks like a deer (compared to most NBA players in his position) but plays like a tiger. Smooth with the ball, aggressively attacking angles, a fluid shot — he has a perfect game for the Knicks’ offense. If he’s one of the two worst offensive players on the floor, then that offense will be extremely potent. Every time I saw him play I said to myself, “Great draft pick.”

    See what Thorpe said about Andy Rautins, here.

  24. Ted Nelson

    Caleb,

    I think Felton is a strong defender. Still, with the current rules it’s pretty tough to stop quick PGs from penetrating and you mostly have to make it a team effort. Felton held his own on a very good defensive team, but he also played with Gerald Wallace, Tyson Chandler, Nazr, Jax, Diaw, Theo Ratliff, and Tyrus Thomas…

    Offensively I think he’s one of the worst starting PGs in the NBA, maybe the worst. He’s an average passer and way below average as a scorer.

    The Warriors are up against the cap, all they had was the MLE. You don’t think the Nets, Knicks, Wiz, Wolves, or another s&t partner would have given Lee more than the MLE? If Lee was considering Minni, the Knicks could have worked a 3-way with Utah and Minni where they moved . Lee’s agent has to make it seem like he’s considering Minni to get
    The Warriors had to match salaries to get Lee. The Knicks could have used their cap space elsewhere if the only salaries the Warriors were offering were crap. While Turiaf and Azubuike are NBA players, they’re not clearly above average.

    I disagree on the value of walking away to the Knicks. What else does GS have to offer? Brandan Wright (who has never proven he can stay healthy). Reggie Williams. Gadzuric and Radmanovic’s contracts. In any GS trade the Knicks would have had to tie up a large chunk of their cap space for at least a year… Why do that for no return when you could just take the cap space and use it elsewhere?
    Given his production in the minutes he’s gotten I think Mahinmi’s potential is pretty great. You can argue Randolph v. B Wright, but the Knicks needed a good reason to tie up cap space for a full year and probably flat out stated they wouldn’t tie up space beyond one year. In that sense Turiaf is a risk on their part.
    Randolph, Gadzuric, and Reggie Williams maybe would have worked, but I don’t see many other packages GS could have offered. Maybe GS likes Reggie Williams as a long-term piece? Maybe the Knicks said “we need to fill out our rotation using the cap space we have and can’t afford a Gadzuric rotting on our bench and taking a chance Williams is for real…

    I agree Donnie played a great hand, but if they really wanted Lee I’m not sure the Warriors had much other choice. The Rockets aren’t really comparable. They had 100% of the leverage in the deadline deal because they were taking back salary and helping the Knicks, Knicks were in a similar situation here.

  25. marxster

    I think the Knicks should have hired Lawrence Frank as assistant coach. Now he’s been hired by the Celtics. D’Antoni needs to stop thinking he’s cat’s meow and hire a defensive specialist.

  26. rama

    With that list of big men, am I alone in thinking we shouldn’t pursue Carmelo and instead should go for Horford/Noah/Oden and then cap it off with CP3 the following year?

  27. rama

    Maybe it depends on the progress of Gallo and Wil. If one makes it clear he’s a top quality 3 next year, it would be a lot easier to forget about Carmelo.

  28. Z-man

    Was just watching a Knicks-Suns game on MSG. The starting lineup was Steph, Eddy, Q, Jamal, and Zach… maybe the all-time Isiah bad contract starting five? Made me appreciate what Walsh has done even more.

  29. vanedave

    Right now all the rumors flying around Melo and CP3 have us giving up Gallo, Randolph, or both. To me, this thing is all about Melo right now. And if Melo puts his foot down and says he is leaving Denver, I do not see the Knicks having to give up a crapload to get him.

    Look at what teams got for their FAs this year. Trade exemptions are all the rage right now. To me, the Knicks are the only team that got significant talent straight up for their departing FA. Utah ended up with Al Jeff, but that was through the trade exemption they picked up from Chicago.

    My point is this. The best thing NY has to offer Denver is financial flexibility. If they want to save money this year, they ship Melo to us for a package centered around Chandler and picks. They can get a pretty decent trade exemption in the process. If they are looking further they can throw in Birdman for Curry.

    Those deals would set Denver up nicely going into the new CBA. This should be attractive if the team is heading toward a rebuilding period, which is exactly where they are headed if Melo bolts.

  30. Z

    “My point is this. The best thing NY has to offer Denver is financial flexibility. If they want to save money this year, they ship Melo to us for a package centered around Chandler and picks. They can get a pretty decent trade exemption in the process.”

    We can only offer a $3 million trade exception now. A Melo trade would have to involve Eddy Curry, which doesn’t bring Denver any financial flexibility. Just a pawn to play with at the deadline. (Melo would be worth much more to them at the deadline than Curry).

  31. Z-man

    I wonder if David Stern is secretly thrilled re: the big 3 in Miami and the CP3 statement at Melo’s wedding. The most critical eras in the NBA’s development were when Jordan and Co. won 6 of 8 championships without being even tested in the finals, and when the Bird Celtics and the Magic Lakers were clearly the 2 best teams in the league and were loaded with talent.

    Gus Johnson and Kelly Tripuca were really going at it on MSG re: the Miami spectacle and The Decision (Gus Johnson thought it was great, that B-Ball is entertainment, etc.) Alan Hahn and Al Trautwig were clearly on Tripuca’s side. Even though it was portrayed as an “old school-new school” thing, I couldn’t help but feel that there were some unintentional racial undertones to the conversation. I actually thought that Gus was pretty persuasive.

  32. massive

    Do you believe that Portland doesn’t want anything we have to offer for Rudy Fernandez? According to Isola, the Knicks would need to pull off a 3-way trade if we’re going to get him. I’m not sure I buy this.

  33. Kevin McElroy

    Hate to say it (actually, love to) but it’s starting to look like we have too many rotation-caliber players to actually give minutes to all the guys we’re talking about. Consider the following (assuming that Hubie Brown isn’t the coach and thus we want to stick to an 8 or 9 man rotation):

    Minutes per position (subs in parentheses)

    PG – Felton 28 (Douglas 20)
    SG – Azuibuke 28 (Douglas 4, Chandler 8, Walker 8)
    SF – Gallinari 26 (Chandler 12, Walker 6, Randolph 4)
    PF – Stoudemire 20 (Randolph 24, Gallinari 4)
    C – Turiaf 24 (Stoudemire 16, Mozgov/Curry/Jordan 8)

    In total that gives the following minutes per game for each player:

    Stoudemire 36
    Gallinari 30
    Felton 28
    Randolph 28
    Azubuike 28
    Douglas 24
    Turiaf 24
    Chandler 20
    Walker 14
    Whoever wins the backup center battle: 8

    That’s already 10 guys in the rotation and the minutes per player are starting to look pretty thin (especially for Chandler who got 36 mpg last year) without considering Fields, Rautins or more than one of the Curry/Jordan/Mozgov trifecta. We know from experience that D’Antoni won’t do that — he’ll settle on a shorter rotation and probably run Felton or Douglas into the ground. If they actually trade for Rudy Fernandez (who I really like, in a vacuum) somebody is going to be completely marginalized (I just hope it isn’t Azubuike who is clearly the best option at the 2 right now).

    Conclusion: We need to trade one of these wings for a draft pick or a real center. Ill Will is the most likely candidate because he needs to get paid next year. Anybody here who wouldn’t trade Chandler straight up for Jordan Hill right now?

  34. Z

    Kevin– I’ll go out on a limb and say Felton leads the team in minutes next year…

    Also, when it’s all said and done, Amar’e plays a lot more minutes at the 5.

    And I agree Chandler is superfluous. Don’t think we need Rudy though. Chandler for Hill would be good, but I saw highlights from Rockets summer league and in every clip Hill was getting scored on. Didn’t bring tears to my eyes. Would like to see Chandler traded for a pick. I think Donnie is probably trying to trade him, too. He was, after all, “the perfect compliment to LeBron”. Maybe we can trade his talents to South Beach…

  35. Z-man

    Barring a trade, I disagree that Chandler will be marginalized. My guess is that he will get lots of minutes at first and Azuibuke will not, in part because of his knee injury. Then it will depend on how Chandler plays.

    I also don’t think Turiaf gets 24 minutes per night, expect him to get maybe 18 minutes and the rest going to Gallo, Randolph, and probably Mosgov.

  36. Ted Nelson

    massive: Do you believe that Portland doesn’t want anything we have to offer for Rudy Fernandez? According to Isola, the Knicks would need to pull off a 3-way trade if we’re going to get him. I’m not sure I buy this.  

    What do the Knicks really have to offer outside of Wilson Chandler? Douglas, Walker, Rautins, Fields, Jordan, and future 2nd rounders or a 1st rounder 4 years from now…

    Don’t know that the Knicks move Douglas, and Portland may not see what we do in him anyway. Even if they are high on Douglas, he provides something similar to Bayless and maybe Elliot Williams. One of 6 guards in a Roy/Miller/Douglas/?Matthews?/Bayless/Williams backcourt. Again, I don’t know that the Knicks want to trade Douglas anyway, but his value to Portland is less than to the Knicks anyway.

    Knicks seem higher on Walker than most, and maybe rightly so. At best he’s a limited player… could replace Webster, but I guess that’s what they’re looking for from Babbitt and/or Matthews. Do the Knicks want to trade their 2nd rounders and is Portland interested? Doubt it.

    Chandler seems like the best fit. I’d call his on-court value close to Fernandez… though I think I prefer Fernandez, personally. Maybe Portland really doesn’t like WC as a player. He’s a pretty average SF even if the last 1/2 of last season was for real. At SF, Batum is a plus defender (Chandler’s biggest strength right now) Portland reportedly believes will be All-Defense… their Bruce Bowen. 82games has Roy as splitting his time between the 2 and 3 last season, so really he’s the 2nd SF in their rotation. Babbitt has good offensive potential. Dante Cunningham can play basketball (maybe not in the NBA, though).
    The biggest thing is that Chandler’s a FA after the season. Even if they like him alright they’re trading 2 cheap years of a potential rotation player for 1 cheap year of a potential rotation player.

    I can see why Portland is interested in picks. I don’t know who is pick rich among interested teams, but the Knicks are not. So, a 3-way might make sense if someone’s willing to give up a pick for Chandler. Knicks could throw in a future 2nd along with a 1st they get for Chandler if Portland plays hardball or the bidding heats up.

  37. Garson

    Tried to put the Chandler for Rudy F in the ESPN Trade machine and it FAILED. Blazers are over the cap by 400K.

    Love Rudy in our system at starting SG. He can shoot finish and pass and I can see him and Gallo developing nicely next to each other. PLUS the MSG crowd can get a RUDY chant going which would be reason number 1.

  38. Kikuchiyo

    Knicks-Pistons Summer League game is on ESPN3.com today at 4, if I’m reading the schedule correctly.

    [To Mike: the new Knickerblogger site design doesn’t play well with Safari 5. I get: “Safari is no longer responding because of a script on the webpage “KnickerBlogger.Net” (http://knickerblogger.net/). Do you want to stop running the script, or let it continue?”]

  39. Ted Nelson

    Kevin,

    Interesting stuff.

    I don’t think D’Antoni will have a problem cutting someone out of the rotation: Walker or Azubuike, for example, could be redundant depending on which steps up… If they both hit their ceilings, maybe Chandler is redundant… If none of the Cs step up and the wings do, more small-ball. Etc.

    Especially since injuries and bad years will probably weed out *at least* one guy for a good chunk of the season. If the rotation is hard to determine I think we’ll have more of a problem of no one stepping up than too many guys stepping up. The chances of everyone stepping up are just not that great, though it would be awesome. If you can’t pick a rotation because everyone is great, that’s a good problem to have. Recent Knicks teams have had the opposite problem.

    Fernandez is probably going to take at least a Chandler to get, since the Knicks have very few draft picks going forward.

    I would probably prefer to trade Chandler for a draft pick (or Fernandez) than a C… Depends on specifics, but not too many teams will trade a good big for a smaller player. A 5 gotten for Chandler is probably just another name to throw in the Turiaf/Timo/Curry/Jordan battle for minutes behind Amare, (hopefully) Randolph, and probably Gallo/Chandler at the 4 too.
    JaVale McGee, for example, I might consider on upside… No other names really come to mind… doubt Memphis is ready to give up on Thabeet. Boone and Fesenko are RFAs, but are they worth WC? (I say no.) I think between Turiaf, Amare, and Timo the Knicks have as much of a real C as they’ve had in a long while and as much as they probably need if other guys work out. If they wanted another C they should have tried to outbid Dallas for Mahinmi, probably more upside than anyone else available… double down with he and Timo in hopes one works out.

    Z,

    “I’ll go out on a limb and say Felton leads the team in minutes next year…”

    I fear you may be right, but I really hope Douglas plays well enough to eat into those minutes (which might also require Knicks getting more of a distributor on the wing/ one or more guys stepping up their playmaking: Gallo, Randolph, Fields, Rautins… Fernandez…).
    Gallo played 34 mpg last season. I see he, Amare, Randolph, and maybe WC (or who he’s traded for) as candidates to play more minutes than Felton. If none of those guys plays more than Felton, I think it could be a bad sign… really I hope all those guys end up playing more than Felton.

  40. massive

    @43,

    Wilson Chandler for Rudy Fernandez sounds pretty fair to me. Its a better fit for both teams. You don’t want Luke Babbitt or Rudy Fernandez guarding other teams SFs (especially with Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant in the same division), and it allows Brandon Roy to play more minutes at the 2 guard next to a natural 3. We all know (or can imagine) how Fernandez fits here with D’Antoni. Fernandez gives us another ball-handler, and will run the offense when Felton is off the floor, allowing Toney to fill more of a scoring/defending combo-guard, sort of like how San Antonio is doing with George Hill.

    Portland probably has better offers than Wilson Chandler for Rudy Fernandez, but I just don’t see how Portland is interested in nobody (excluding Gallo) on this current roster.

  41. Frank O.

    Realgm had this post:
    The agent for Timofey Mozgov was reportedly told that Eddy Curry, who is in the final season of his contract, will not receive playing time with the Knicks.

    Mosgov’s agent said that his client was guaranteed a spot on the Knicks’ roster, as the backup to center Ronnie Turiaf.

    Amar’e Stoudemire, whom the Knicks signed to a maximum-salary contract as a free agent, was apparently assured that he will be used in his natural position at power forward.

    Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/68191/20100716/report_eddy_curry_will_not_play_for_knicks/#ixzz0trd2Dadk

  42. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Kikuchiyo: Knicks-Pistons Summer League game is on ESPN3.com today at 4, if I’m reading the schedule correctly.
    [To Mike: the new Knickerblogger site design doesn’t play well with Safari 5. I get: “Safari is no longer responding because of a script on the webpage “KnickerBlogger.Net” (http://knickerblogger.net/). Do you want to stop running the script, or let it continue?”]  

    Just loaded Safari for Windows & did not get any errors. I take it you’re using a Mac?

    Anyone else seeing that error?

  43. Ted Nelson

    massive,

    I agree their value is similar overall, but maybe Portland is just not high on Chandler. Outside Chandler, what do the Knicks have to offer?
    As I said, besides whether they actually like his game Portland has reasons not to value Chandler:

    -Batum is their perimeter defensive specialist, the guy they want on Melo or Durant or whoever. At his year end meeting Portland told him they expect him to be All-Defense next season. He’s a much better jump shooter than WC, and a very good finisher as well. He had a very good 09-10 season as a 21 year old: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/batumni01.html
    Overall I think Batum is a significantly better piece than WC right now.

    -If Rudy’s on the floor he’s guarding the 2 and Roy the 3 most likely. Rudy is actually an average defender and unfairly knocked based on his skin tone. Roy played 26% of the team’s minutes at SF last season according to 82games. They have quality backcourt depth and may be better off with a Fernandez/ Bayless/ Matthews/ Williams at the 2 and Roy at the 3 than with Roy at the 2 and Chandler at the 3.

    -WC’s contract expires after next season. At that point he’s no longer a bargain. They’ve already got their 2010-11 rotation set, so a draft pick might be a better value for them.

    Rudy has solid guard skills, but he is less of a PG than TD. He is and has always been primarily a scorer with some PG skills on the side. D’Antoni can try him at the 1, but I’m not sure that’s the best way to use him. He will take some ballhandling/playmaking responsibility off of Douglas compared to a Walker, Chandler, or Azubuike… who are all purely wings. There’s value in that and his jump shooting (which was down last season). Good finisher when he does venture inside. Average defender. The Knicks only have 2 real guards in their rotation, so Fernandez would be a great fit.

    “Portland probably has better offers than Wilson Chandler for Rudy Fernandez, but I just don’t see how Portland is interested in nobody (excluding Gallo) on this current roster.”

    I’m sure they’d fall over themselves to get Gallo or Randolph for Fernandez. My understanding is that they’re not interested in anything the Knicks *are offering* (they’ve already had discussions, remember, and I’m sure the Knicks did not make Gallo/Randolph available) and that what they are interested in is a draft pick(s). They’ve got a playoff roster in place, probably a contender with good health. Adding a Wilson Chandler type at the end of the rotation for one year is not as valuable to them as a draft pick. Makes sense: picks are very liquid (can be traded easily and kept for way longer than one year), have infinite upside, and are cost controlled for a few seasons.

  44. Ted Nelson

    All that said, could have just said this in the first place, if the Knicks can find someone who values WC highly and wants to rent him for a year to consider a long-term deal a 3-way deal makes a lot of sense. Knicks get a good guard they could use, Portland gets a pick(s) and/or player(s) they like, and a 3rd team gets a player they are interested in.

    I’m honestly interested to see what WC’s trade value is…

  45. Ted Nelson

    Anyone think Fields may overtake Walker in the rotation/ just outside it? I’m not overly concerned about summer league, but to me the way they’ve played in Vegas certainly changes the dynamic going into training camp. Walker came in on a high after becoming a D’Antoni favorite late last season and justifying that support with his scoring and effort. You expect a (young) veteran NBA rotation player to stand out against SL competition, and Walker really has not. Fields, on the other hand, has stood out. With Azubuike being a career .409 3P shooter and better overall player, I’d put my money on him to beat out Walker. Fields then might also beat him out and leave him competing with Rautins to occasionally come in and jack up a 3.

    Of course their SL performance will not determine their regular season minutes, but may be a sign of things to come… Interested to see what happens this afternoon.

  46. Frank

    Ted Nelson: Anyone think Fields may overtake Walker in the rotation/ just outside it? I’m not overly concerned about summer league, but to me the way they’ve played in Vegas certainly changes the dynamic going into training camp. Walker came in on a high after becoming a D’Antoni favorite late last season and justifying that support with his scoring and effort. You expect a (young) veteran NBA rotation player to stand out against SL competition, and Walker really has not. Fields, on the other hand, has stood out. With Azubuike being a career .409 3P shooter and better overall player, I’d put my money on him to beat out Walker. Fields then might also beat him out and leave him competing with Rautins to occasionally come in and jack up a 3.
    Of course their SL performance will not determine their regular season minutes, but may be a sign of things to come… Interested to see what happens this afternoon.  

    I get the same feeling. Watching Walker play in SL it looks to me like he lost all this weight and thought he would come in and out-athlete everyone. Every time he gets the ball he drives the ball into traffic, tries to elevate, and misses badly. Maybe once he returns to being the 3rd or 4th option on a play he will be better. Fields, on the other hand, takes what the defense gives him and just seems to play very much under control.

    Re: playing time – I think Felton will play 35 min/game. That leaves 13 min for TD at the point and probably another 12 minutes at the 2 with Felton on the floor – sort of a Mike Bibby + Bobby Jackson look. I think Chandler’s minutes get cut down to mid 20s. A 9 man rotation seems the most that MD’A would ever use, so someone like Walker may be looking at just a few minutes of garbage time.

  47. Z-man

    One thing that Walker is showing in VSL is that he is can be very physical. That might come in handy vs. LeBron and Wade. Fields seems like more of a finesse player, but has a nose for the ball and gets good position around the basket. My guess is that both will get an opportunity to win that fringe job in preseason, again, barring a trade.

  48. Frank

    Z-man: One thing that Walker is showing in VSL is that he is can be very physical.That might come in handy vs. LeBron and Wade.Fields seems like more of a finesse player, but has a nose for the ball and gets good position around the basket.My guess is that both will get an opportunity to win that fringe job in preseason, again, barring a trade.  

    If by physical you mean that he shows the willingness to clothesline a defenseless D-league player in mid-air, causing him to fall onto his back and head — then yes!! =)

  49. Frank

    Meanwhile, if Lebron had done something like this:

    http://twitpic.com/25upa7

    everyone would still think he’s awesome.

    Instead, he is Lebron James, “Global Douchebag”.

    Props to Amare for being a stand-up guy. I’m really happy we have him.

  50. Frank O.

    I think Landry Fields may end up being a star.
    Not a lot of holes in his O game, can break people down off the dribble, drives well and with aggression to his left and right. When he goes left he has this wicked spin move back to his right that is pretty disarming.
    He doesn’t appear to be an explosive leaper, but he’s sneaky and very fluid. Like Mo Rivera’s motion to the plate, but then the ball just explodes.
    Landry is so fluid, it looks a bit easy. And while it doesn’t appear explosive, he seems to leave a lot of folks behind.
    And he seems real confident, like crazy confident, from the interviews I have seen with him. Great players have crazy confidence.

    anyway, just watched a bunch of his highlights from college.

  51. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Kevin McElroy: Gentlemen, it’s July 16 and I can’t wait for opening night.This is new. This is good.  

    Agreed. As much as the prospect of a Lakers-Heat Finals makes my stomach turn, I can’t wait to see how the Knicks turn out.

  52. Ted Nelson

    Z-man: One thing that Walker is showing in VSL is that he is can be very physical.That might come in handy vs. LeBron and Wade.Fields seems like more of a finesse player, but has a nose for the ball and gets good position around the basket.My guess is that both will get an opportunity to win that fringe job in preseason, again, barring a trade.  

    The thing is that Chandler is more physical. Maybe Azubuike too. I see Walker losing out to Randolph and Chandler as a defender and slasher, on the one hand, and Gallo, Douglas, and Azubuike as a 3-pt shooting wing on the other (all shoot well and are more well-rounded). That’s why I’m wondering about him vs. Fields.

    As far as useful physicality… Walker has been a below average defender in his NBA career. That was a big knock against him in Boston. Despite all his run-jump athleticism he’s been, at best, a 3-pt specialist in the NBA who’d throw in the occasional dunk. I was hoping to see that he could do more than that against B-rate competition this summer to at least hope he could do it against NBA competition… Haven’t really seen it, though he played well against the Lakers.
    I’m also wondering if Walker will get the Duhon treatment as a D’Antoni favorite who plays in front of better players for no good reason (would include Jeffries, but there’s the trade value explanation element… instant love for Earl Barron of all people is another example, though Barron had some good games)… There are other wings on board, though, so Walker probably doesn’t have Duhon status.

    Fields is smooth, but he’s got a good body for a rookie… he could be physical at some point.

  53. Frank O.

    @66
    I think last year Duhon got the special treatment because of the Knicks’ limitations at pg.
    There are several choices at Walker’s position. D’Antoni isn’t as hemmed in. FWIW

  54. Z-man

    Ted,
    Agreed. I really like Fields and have no attachment to Walker. Still think Walker has room for development, as does Chandler. If Azu comes back healthy, it doesn’t bode well for Walker. If he doesn’t, Walker might have a chance to crack the rotation. Any or all of these guys are trade bait, though.

  55. Ted Nelson

    Frank O.,

    Agree that was the reason Duhon played and that Walker has more comp (“There are other wings on board, though, so Walker probably doesn’t have Duhon status”). I still don’t think that was a good enough reason to play Duhon over Robinson and Douglas and Hughes and some scrub they could have picked up from the D-League all season, though.

    Z-Man,

    Sort of exciting that a couple weeks ago we were thinking of Walker as a major part of the rotation and pinning a lot of our hopes on his development into a legit rotation player (or at least I was), and now it’s not clear he’ll get more than garbage minutes… Definitely share in Kevin and Mike’s excitement for the season.

  56. d-mar

    @62 That’s a class move by Amare (for those who don’t click on the link, Amare took out a full age ad in the Arizona Republic to thank his fans) I would bet he’ll hear more cheers than jeers when the Knicks play the Suns in Phoenix.

  57. Frank O.

    @69

    Duhon was pretty terrible. In hindsight, regardless of Nate’s issues, the Knicks couldn’t have gotten a whole lot worse with him running things…

  58. eric8476

    After reading the Warriors blogs they were down on the trade then they were accepting. I makes me think we made a steal with this trade.

  59. nicos

    Walker was better today- still doesn’t seem to be able to get much separation off of the dribble which I’d hoped the weight loss might have helped with. In general I’m hoping his play in summer league has been a case of a guy who’s blown out his knee a couple of times kind of taking it easy until it really counts. He should be looking over his shoulder at Fields who had a low-key game but has a real shot at being in the rotation at the two- As D’Antoni said, his outside shot has to improve but he looks like a legitimate NBA player- not the highest of ceilings (unless he somehow develops into a lights-out 3 point shooter) but looks like he could wind up a solid 7th-8th guy on a pretty good team.

  60. BigBlueAL

    Despite fouling out today with 10 fouls in 21 minutes (!!!) Jordan looked like he actually has some offense to his game.

    Interesting during D’Antoni’s interview when asked about Gallo he seemed a bit annoyed that he hasnt seen him at all this summer and said he better be working out in Italy because his minutes are not guaranteed with the competition he will be facing from his teammates next season. He said Gallo should be back in this country in mid to late August.

  61. Ben R

    One thing about Walker in summer league is that he is a role player. On offense he is a three point shooter that can take advantage of defensive lapses with back door cuts and finish on the break. He is not enough of a ball handler to really create for himself. Players like him usually struggle in summer league where the offense is unorganized and chaotic, highlighted by the fact there is no true point on the entire roster. On the other hand more complete players like Fields often look good in summer league because they do not need others to create their opportunities but then stuggle when the competition gets better.

    Walker is a limited player but last year he was very good at his role in the offense. If he continues to shoot over 40% from 3 and over 60% TS% I suspect he will continue to have a role, if last year was an abberation then he might fall out of the rotation because other than efficient scoring he is very average.

    I am also high on fields but unless he comes to camp with a very nice three point stroke I do not see his role in this rotation. I think he gets garbage minutes this year and then if he develops nicely he can step in for Chandler or Azubuike next year when their contracts expire.

  62. SeeWhyDee77

    I feel like bein a hypocritical liar tonite lol. I ALWAYS KNEW LANDRY FIELDS WAS GONNA LOOK GOOD!!
    Now back to reality..honestly, the guy looks much better than I thought he would. Granted, it’s only Summer League and he’s no lock to get regular season PT..maybe unless Chandler gets traded. But he is looking like a very smart pick. Rumor Central on ESPN says that in order to land Fernandez, then we’d problee hafta bring in a third team and include Chandler. What? Are they serious? Fernandez is better and more valuable than Chandler? I think that if Fields learns the offense then we will be better served to keep Chandler and Fields. Fields looks like he brings the same things as Fernandez, minus the passing. So, I don’t think we would necessarily be missing much if we don’t get Rudy. Chandler on the other hand plays D, and can play the 4 (in a pinch), 3, and 2. I just simply don’t get this inflated value of Fernandez..especially with Fields playing like he is in SL. Now, if we must trade Chandler..I say move him for an athletic shot blocker. Ryan hollins will do. He reminds me a little like Camby, with his shot blocking ability and the way he runs the floor. Plus, we can problee pull Hollins and a pick out of Minny for Chandler. And speaking of Minny, how about givin ex-wolf Rashad McCants a shot? Nothin to lose there.

  63. massive

    So according to Timofey Mozgov’s agent, Mozgov will be the back-up center to Ronny Turiaf, ahead of Eddy Curry (who Mozgov’s agent said won’t get any minutes) and Jerome Jordan. I really hope this isn’t true, because Stoudemire and Turiaf in the front-court will be a terrible rebounding front-court. Greg Oden, anybody?

  64. JK47

    @77 Turiaf has never been a guy who plays much more than 20 minutes per game. We’re really going to need Randolph to do some heavy lifting if this team is going to be good. Turiaf is little more than a decent role player and if he’s getting 35 minutes per game we’re probably in serious trouble.

  65. massive

    Well…Greg Oden put up a 23.9 PER before the injury, and Anthony Randolph isn’t exactly made of steel either. It looks like we’re doomed to be out-rebounded this season, 37-45 here we come.

  66. Kevin McElroy

    Walker = shooter, runner, leaper. Will be awesome when his shot is falling, will shoot us out of a few games when it isn’t. Will be D’Antoni’s job to keep the ball out of his hands when its the latter.

    Fields = I propose the nickname Landry “Magnetic” Fields — besides being a sweet pun, the way the ball always seems to find him is remarkable. This could go in a lot of different directions because if he’s not athletic enough then nothing else really matters. The Tayshaun Prince comparisons are baffling to me – Prince is much more athletic and a better defender. If he can keep up he’ll score though otherwise he’ll be D-League all star. He reminds me of one of those Euro guys who comes over and isn’t super fast or a great jumper but is just good at every developable basketball skill.

    Rautins = I despise Andy Rautins (because I am a self-respecting Georgetown fan) but have been impressed by his passing thus far. The shots will fall eventually. He is fine as the 10th or 11th best guy but we should not kid ourselves into thinking he’s a rotation player.

    Jordan = Moves well for a big man (obviously). Will get absolutely torched on defense for at least a season. Probably worth hanging onto as a flyer but i would be stunned if he’s anywhere near the rotaiton this year. I would see us giving Stoudemire minutes at the 5 if Mozgov and Curry are both non-options because Jordan is not ready.

  67. Z

    Kevin McElroy: Fields…The Tayshaun Prince comparisons are baffling to me –

    Didn’t you know: Euros can only be compared to other Euros, white players to white players, and light-skinned black men can only be compared to light-skinned black men. It’s the cardinal rule of sports talk. (Have you noticed, there’s never been a player compared to Sam Cassell?… coincidence or conspiracy!)

  68. DS

    Mike Kurylo:
    I’m not sure if it’s a guard/forward thing with respect to the similarities. With Amar’e – great players usually have lower similarity scores. With Randolph – he’s only 20 years old and there aren’t a lot of players for him to be compared to. And Turiaf is pretty much off the charts. Great assists & blocks, bad rebounding & scoring?I list the top 10 similar players, regardless of score. The z-sum is there to indicate how close the players are. Look at high nearly identical Felton & Starks are, while Randolph has nearly double the assist rate of his closest comparable. That’s a significant (enough) difference.  

    Mike – Severely delayed response. You, for the most part answered my question. But I’m really trying to get at; “to what extent should we expect Felton’s career arc to follow Starks’s or Chris Whitney’s or can he be much better?” You are saying that Randolph is “most similar to a bunch of All Stars” but at the same time, he’s only .200 z-sum similar. So if you included on Felton’s list eeryone with up to a .200 or .300 z-sum similarity of Felton maybe some more encouraging names would come up (Payton? Cassell?) Could we expect Felton to perhaps start playing more like those kinds of players if we’re suggesting that Randolph could play like Kemp or KG?

  69. SeeWhyDee77

    Kevin McElroy:skill.Rautins = I despise Andy Rautins (because I am a self-respecting Georgetown fan) but have been impressed by his passing thus far.The shots will fall eventually.He is fine as the 10th or 11th best guy but we should not kid ourselves into thinking he’s a rotation player.

    Amen..lol..I was a lil torn when I suggested that the Knicks draft Rautins, as I too am a Hoya fan. Despise Syracuse, but greatly respect Boheim.
    Anyhoo…suppose Mike D throws a lineup out there of Turiaf, Stat, Rooster, Azu, and Felton. I think Rautins smarts, ballhandling,shooting ability and passing makes a great fit offensively in that 2nd unit of Randolph, Chandler, and Douglas. Now, Randolph will problee play the 3, 4 and a lil 5…an we all know Mike D has no prob playin Chandler and the 2-3-4..and Douglas can problee play both backcourt spots off the pine. That is problee something coach would luv 2 do, as he likes to keep his rotations tight. But that would wear those guys down becuz Chandler and Randolph have a well documented injury history. Which is why one of the rookies must get minutes..maybe not alot, but enuf to keep Randolph and Chandler from killin themselves. We also need a big to spell Turiaf and Stat becuz who knows when Turiaf will break down playin big minutes and Stat’s health is still something of a question mark b/c of the surgeries. I think coach has to find a way to expand his rotation until the GS Boys (lol..doin tha stanky leg) prove they can hold up with big minutes. And I still say Walsh should make a serious play for Ryan Hollins….

  70. supernova

    @85

    “We also need a big to spell Turiaf and Stat becuz who knows when Turiaf will break down playin big minutes and Stat’s health is still something of a question mark b/c of the surgeries.”

    I think that is why we just acquired the Russian, Mozgov. I bet we are pretty much set with the big men at this point. The only thing we might pick up is a shooting guard, but that all depends on Azubuike’s health.

  71. Mike Kurylo Post author

    DS:
    Mike – Severely delayed response.You, for the most part answered my question. But I’m really trying to get at;“to what extent should we expect Felton’s career arc to follow Starks’s or Chris Whitney’s or can he be much better?” You are saying that Randolph is “most similar to a bunch of All Stars” but at the same time, he’s only .200 z-sum similar.So if you included on Felton’s list eeryone with up to a .200 or .300 z-sum similarity of Felton maybe some more encouraging names would come up (Payton? Cassell?) Could we expect Felton to perhaps start playing more like those kinds of players if we’re suggesting that Randolph could play like Kemp or KG?  

    A z-sum of ~ .065 is one standard deviation away. So z-sums of .200 are to be taken with a bottle of salt, and .300 is an ocean’s worth. The reason I just use the top 10 because, well I have to stop somewhere. Not having a player that is similar indicates a player’s uniqueness. With a player like Magic it means greatness, not so much with a player like Turiaf.

    Anthony is 3 standard deviations from anyone else, but most players remotely close to him were good players. But with Felton, there are a lot of players like him at much closer similarities.

    To use a beer analogy, let’s say someone brings over two beers and asks you to choose one. The first is a coffee stout, and there aren’t a lot of coffee stouts, but most of them are very good. The other is an American ale. There are lots of American ales, there are a few good ones, but a lot of mediocre and crappy ones. Granted there are lots of great American ales, but you’re more likely to find a good coffee stout.

    In any case here is the list for Felton – 25 long. z-scores go to .130. That’s 2 standard deviations away.

    0.036 John Starks
    0.048 Rex Walters
    0.052 Bimbo Coles
    0.054 Chris Whitney
    0.061 Brent Barry
    0.061 Billy McKinney
    0.063 Lorenzo Romar
    0.064 Steve Colter
    0.068 Luke Ridnour
    0.07 Jason Williams
    0.093 Sedale Threatt
    0.093 Jeff Hornacek
    0.103 Kirk Hinrich
    0.106 Mike Evans
    0.107 Chris Corchiani
    0.109 Keith Jennings
    0.11 Jason Terry
    0.114 Jon Barry
    0.116 Danny Ainge
    0.118 Johnny Davis
    0.123 John Roche
    0.123 T.J. Ford
    0.124 Billy Shepherd
    0.13 Earl Watson

  72. Ted Nelson

    Ben R re: 75

    That’s a very good and well articulated point. The thing is that I was hoping Walker would come out in D-League having developed his game a bit. People who are high on him always point to his high school hype and athleticism… but he hasn’t really put it to use in the NBA besides finishing well on the few inside attempts he gets and defensive versatility. I was hoping he could build on finally getting some NBA minutes late last season to become more than just a 3-pt specialist who can finish when he occasionally gets to the basket. Maybe become a legitimate 2-guard by improving his handle. Maybe show more on defense. Summer League would have been the time to see the ball-handling and offensive development. It wasn’t completely discouraging, but not as encouraging as I hoped.

    If all he’s doing is scoring efficiently, I think he becomes pretty redundant in the Knicks’ rotation between Gallo, Azu, and TD. All of those guys might hit 40% from 3 and have a TS% in the high .500s or .600s, but all those guys bring more to the table in other areas than Walker (or at least we hope they will).

    Fields may struggle to make the rotation, but it would be nice if he forces his way in.

    massive,

    Take a deep breath. Turiaf is a weak rebounder. Amare is average. Randolph is above average. Timo himself could be well above average as a rebounder (though some of his other skills are suspect). D’Antoni’s frontcourts in Phoenix featured mostly average rebounders and those teams never went 37-45. I don’t know if you’ve been reading too much Berri, but rebounding is part of the game not the whole game. Rebounding is one of many things the Knicks have to figure out to have a good year. I don’t particularly see it as THE THING, and would probably put other issues ahead of it.

    Would I like Greg Oden? Sure. Is Portland giving him away? No. Oden is going to cost you at least Gallo or Randolph. He may be all but untouchable, since no one is likely to give a huge package for such a risky player and Portland may be looking for a huge package.

    re: 80 Would I like Noah, sure. Are the Bulls likely to let him walk as a RFA? Not at all. Doubt Yao leaves Houston, either. It’s a possibility, though.

  73. carlhil2

    Ted Nelson..”Take a deep breath. Turiaf is a weak rebounder. Amare is average”…………..if 9 boards a game is average, then, for his hight, he is in good company;P. Gasol=9 per for career, big Dirk=8.5, A. Bogut=9….my point is that i think people make too much of the rebound, “D” thing, i mean, D. Lee was no stud on D and he was one of my favorites, STAT will bring more when it counts.

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