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Wednesday, October 1, 2014

Seven Seconds or Mess: Play of the Week 11/20/08

[The Play of the Week sponsored by Seven Seconds or Mess. Visit his site for more X's & O's goodness.]

(Note: The gray defensive circles labeled 1-5 are position specific. A point guard is a 1, a center is a 5, etc.)

Who’s going to protect the paint when the big men are sixteen feet away?

63 comments on “Seven Seconds or Mess: Play of the Week 11/20/08

  1. Rich P.

    It’s crazy how effective the the many incarnations of the pick and roll are. There have been a lot of great basketball minds throughout the years, yet man defense and the pick and roll are staples of every team, no matter what pace they play and what personel they have. This is why Duhon is much more valuable than his stats indicate. He is willing to run the pick and roll the right way where as Steph would often pull up for a J or use the pick to get to the hoop, with nothing in between.

    Great job breaking down the play.

  2. Gian Casimiro (SSoM) Post author

    It’s crazy how effective the the many incarnations of the pick and roll are.

    Well if you think about it, how else are you supposed to get a player open effectively against man defense? Breaking a man down off the dribble is a great skill but only gets you so far (set that up for your Crawford jokes).

  3. Ted Nelson

    I came up with an interesting (conspiracy) theory… the Knicks pick after the best player on the board is taken very often and end up with busts when this is the case, and when a bust is taken before they pick they usually get a good player:

    1996: Knicks pick 18th, #17 Jermaine O’Neal…
    Knicks pick 21st, #20= Zydrunas Ilgauskas (this one’s their fualt as they passed him up twice, at 18 and 19…)
    1997: Knicks pick 25th, #24=Rodrick Rhodes…but #23=Bobby Jackson
    1998: Knicks pick 44th, #43= Jahidi White (ok, well #41 was Cat Mobley)
    1999: They blew the Weis pick…
    2000: Knicks pick 22nd, #21= Morris Peterson
    Knicks pick 39th, #38=Eduardo Najera, #37= Eddie House
    2001: Knicks pick 39th, #38= Mehmet Okur
    Knicks pick 43rd, #42= Bobby Simmons
    2002: Knicks acquire 25th pick, #24= Nenad Kristic
    Knicks pick 36th, #35= Carlos Boozer
    2003: Knicks pick 9th, #8= TJ Ford
    Knicks pick 30th, #29= Josh Howard
    Knicks pick 39th, #38= Steve Blake
    2004: Trevor Ariza is amazingly not taken #43 and the Knicks manage to get the best player on the board… only to trade him before he develops
    2005: Knicks have good luck Villanueva is fairly average at #7, so the Knicks get a fairly average #8 in Channing Frye. Julius Hodge (after getting shot) is a bust at #20 so the Knicks get a bit of a steal in Nate. Wayne Simien is a bust at #29,so the Knicks get a steal in Lee at #30. If Isiah had held onto #54 I’ll almost certain he would have taken Amir Johnson, because Orien Greene only played 1 full season.
    2006: Quincy Douby has yet to do anything although he’s still hanging around, so Balkman has yet to really break out but is showing a lot of promise (once Douby’s out of the league get Balkman on your fantasy team…)
    Ager’s a bust, Collins is largely a bust..
    2007: Jared Dudley’s an end of the rotation guy, so Wilson Chandler’s obviously a beginning of the rotation guy…
    2008: Bodes well for the Knicks that Kevin Love has been average so far, but if he gets going I don’t expect to see Danilo’s back healing.

    I’m 99.9% joking, but I think this theory holds at least as much weight as Clyde Police’s.

    In all seriousness, the Knicks have failed to use the draft as well as they should for a long time (either by blowing or trading away picks), but there might be some bad karma/luck involved. One or two of those guys is still on the board and maybe the Knicks luck into Josh Howard and Carlos Boozer. I blame this on David Stern… (that was a joke)

  4. Ted Nelson

    Sportscenter saying there might be a Crawford for Al Harrington deal tomorrow, I don’t see much info on the web.

    Wouldn’t be the worst thing that could happen, but also not the best. I would be a bit dissapointed overall: helps the salary situation without giving up much talent, but I have to think they could get a good pick/prospect for Crawford…

  5. Ted Nelson

    “presumably” is a pretty key word in that article, IMO. I take it to mean: I have no evidence and, therefore, cannot say “reportedly.” Everyone else seems to presume that it’s Crawford-Harrington, but I also hope Vescey is right.

  6. jon abbey

    just coming here to post the same thing, but it’s interesting to note that the print version in today’s Post (published five hours earlier before the latest update here) is less certain, with a sentence near the end “If it’s not for Rose, the only other possible match would be for Quentin Richardson”, which is now gone from the online version.

  7. o_boogie

    “In all seriousness, the Knicks have failed to use the draft as well as they should for a long time (either by blowing or trading away picks), but there might be some bad karma/luck involved. One or two of those guys is still on the board and maybe the Knicks luck into Josh Howard and Carlos Boozer. I blame this on David Stern… (that was a joke)”

    I think our biggest problem has been the inability to find a superstar in the draft. Part of the reason many of us (including myself) worships Lee is because he is the best player we have picked in the draft in a long time, probably since Kurt Thomas.

  8. Nick C.

    Kurt came in a trade. He was with Miami and Dallas before NYK. So who is Lee the best since Ward? Strickland? Mark Jackson? Ewing? I have to be missing someone are these the only starters outside of Hubert Davis and Sky Walker?

  9. njhoop

    How can you not like giving up Rose for Harrington without effecting our cap situation? I’ve never personally been a big fan of Harrington, but it’s still an upgrade, and he’ll do well in D’Antoni’s system. Definitely means less minutes for Q and don’t be surprised if Lee is out the door before the deadline.

  10. JoMo

    Malik Rose has been – alongside Q – the biggest liability to our team (on the court anyway). Especially in a rebuilding scenario. He should have been out of the league before last season started and provides little more on court than face-palming TO’s, awful forced shots, and moves that look to be about 2 steps too slow to keep up with any team.

    I’m overjoyed that we managed to pull in Harrington for him straight up. At least he’s a remotely capable scorer. I am however concerned with his persona in the locker room and his defense (but I mean it just HAS to be better than what rose brings to the table in that regard).

    Big win for us I think.

  11. Ted Nelson

    I don’t think it’s at all fair to call Q a liability this season. He’s not great, but he hasn’t been terrible this season either: he’s shot very well, played within the system, and basically helped the team I would say.

    Anyone seen this from anyone besides Vecsey yet?

    If the deal is for Rose straight-up I’m obviously excited, but there are a couple of reasons not to like it: his attitude being one and his potentially eating playing time of better players (WC and Lee, for example) being the other. He’s also basically a poorman’s Wilson Chandler… it’s definitely not clear that there will be diminishing returns, but it’s definitely possible. He takes up a roster spot next season, whereas the Knicks could have tried to find a diamond in the rough with a free agent (unheralded or an undrafted rookie) or by buying a draft pick. Finally, adding another solid, far from spectacular piece could hurt the Knicks draft position without actually making them good. I am hopeful that Harrington will be so siked to get out of GS that he has a career year or at least a great first month.

    If it’s for much more than Rose, I might not be that happy with it…

  12. brandon101480

    New York Knicks

    Incoming Players
    Cuttino Mobley
    Salary: $8,925,000 Years Remaining: 2
    PTS: 12.8 REB: 2.7 AST: 1.2 PER: 9.47

    Marcus Camby
    Salary: $10,000,000 Years Remaining: 2
    PTS: 7.7 REB: 9.6 AST: 1.0 PER: 18.80

    Tim Thomas
    Salary: $6,049,400 Years Remaining: 2
    PTS: 10.3 REB: 4.8 AST: 1.0 PER: 11.27

    Outgoing Players: Eddy Curry, Malik Rose, David Lee, Jamal CrawfordLos Angeles Clippers

    Incoming Players
    Eddy Curry
    Salary: $9,723,983 Years Remaining: 2

    Malik Rose
    Salary: $7,647,500 Years Remaining: 1
    PTS: 1.6 REB: 2.1 AST: 0.4 PER: -5.08

    David Lee
    Salary: $1,788,033 Years Remaining: 1
    PTS: 11.3 REB: 6.6 AST: 1.9 PER: 13.68

    Jamal Crawford
    Salary: $8,640,000 Years Remaining: 3
    PTS: 19.6 REB: 1.5 AST: 4.4 PER: 16.42

    Outgoing Players: Cuttino Mobley,

  13. njhoop

    Obviously I’m all for this trade, but losing 40ppg, wow.

    Yeah, but we get back the man whose picture is in the dictionary next to “underacheiver” the one and only Tim Thomas!

  14. Roshi

    If that three-way trade is accurate, get ready for the ’25 FGA or more’ Wilson Chandler era. God help us.

  15. TDM

    This from Alan Hahn of Newsday:

    “Just heard this seconds ago…

    The Knicks, Warriors and Clippers are talking about a three-way deal that would involve Jamal Crawford, Zach Randolph and Mardy Collins being sent in a cap-space clearing move that would bring in Tim Thomas, Cuttino Mobley and Al Harrington.

    The contracts on all three incoming players expire in 2010.”

  16. D

    This from Alan Hahn of Newsday:
    “Just heard this seconds ago…
    The Knicks, Warriors and Clippers are talking about a three-way deal that would involve Jamal Crawford, Zach Randolph and Mardy Collins being sent in a cap-space clearing move that would bring in Tim Thomas, Cuttino Mobley and Al Harrington.
    The contracts on all three incoming players expire in 2010.”

    I’m a huge supporter of clearing cap space for 2010, but I figured Crawford and Randolph had a little more value than this. Hopefully draft picks are included headed the knicks way.

    There must be more to this trade if it is true because it is not a three way deal.

  17. Ray

    Cmon…weve got to get some draft picks out of this deal..at least a second rounder at best a first. This is rediculous. Z-Bo is worth more than salary relief.

  18. Danisrob

    It seems we are just kinda dumping Randolph for Mobley and Thomas, maybe we are getting a pick or something there?

  19. Gian Casimiro (SSoM) Post author
    Hopefully draft picks are included headed the knicks way.

    My thoughts exactly. I doubt that the Clippers give up a first rounder considering how bad they are at the moment, but perhaps a first rounder from GS? They’re most likely lottery bound so that’d be nice.

  20. Greene

    Let’s be clear here. The three way that dumps Craw and Zach is not a good deal. There must be some more talent coming back our way. LeBron, Wade or Bosh are NOT coming to a team that is coming off a 20 win season. They are not coming to play alongside Wilson Chandler and Nate Robinson. We will not get LeBron if the rest of the team sucks.

  21. TDM

    Just thinking here, there must be some draft picks involved. Otherwise, this would not be a 3-team deal. You’d have the deal between NY and the Clips (Zach for Thomas and Mobley) and the deal between NY and GS (Craw and Collins for Harrington). Something else has to be thrown around. . .

  22. TDM

    And . . . it doesn’t make sense that the clips would take Zach without getting rid of Camby OR Solomon Grundy.

  23. Frank O.

    This looks like a classic salary dump.
    Which I’m fine with. I’ve always said the Knicks needed to get cap healthy.
    Again, it emphasizes Knicks youth, Lee, Robinson, Chandler, and unloads expensive, erratic talent, i.e. Crawford.
    I have to say, Randolph has done a lot to rehab his image though. He plays hard. But he still does not defend, and cannot or will not pass.
    Harrington will move the ball, move without the ball, and generally defend better in D’Antoni’s schemes.

    I’m still cautious though. News reports on Knicks’ trades have been noteably poor.

  24. Danisrob

    A three way salary dump where we give up the 2 best players and it is still the most excited i have been about the knicks in 5 years!

  25. ess-dog

    The Clips have to give up something besides expiring contracts. They have talent to burn (or draft picks.) But I agree, we are in a good position right now with Zach and Craw. They are worth more than expiring contracts. Draft picks or young players need to be involved. I could see them moving Thornton or Gordon. And GS has to give up one of the twin flagpole kids or a draft pick. Otherwise, why would we do this now? I’m excited though, because we are dealing with GM’s that are historically not that bright.

  26. Ted Nelson

    Waiting for an actual deal before weighing in too heavily; however, I don’t think Zach Randolph is worth much more than a salary dump. Even though he’s suddenly considered the “best player in the world” his TS% is still .517 and the Knicks have played much better with him off the court. He is a rebounding machine and a high volume scorer, though, so I have to figure there’s something more to it if there’s a real deal on the table.

    I’m also figuring the Knicks are pushing for Camby and picks. As others have pointed out, nothing in the report hints at what would exchange between GS and LAC..

  27. mastermind

    The Knicks will be extremely lucky if they can pull off this trade. All the people saying that the Knicks had better get back some draft picks in the deal are way off base. Randolph and Crawford are not worth draft picks; they are not even worth expiring contracts. The Knicks are just lucky that the Clippers are incompetent and the Warriors have a disgruntled player and would welcome Crawford’s peculiar playing style. Crawford and Randolph are bad players. Their career TS%s are well below the league average. They consistently hurt their teams on both offense and defense throughout their careers. Any team that has either of them as a featured player/starter will not be successful and the Knicks will be quite lucky if they do indeed manage to dump them.

  28. brandon101480

    i hope camby is included in this trade i don’t mind trading randolph if camby and a couple of draft picks are involved.

  29. mastermind

    It’s also important to note that this deal would get the Knicks far enough under the cap in 2010 to sign two maximum-contract players. So even if Randolph and Crawford are worth some draft picks (because they average 20 points per game at the league’s fastest pace?), wouldn’t it be advisable to forgo those picks for the ability to bring in Lebron and Wade (or Bosh or Amare) in a year and a half?

  30. Ted Nelson

    “Otherwise, why would we do this now?”

    To have a chance at the greatest free agent class in NBA history…

    “We will not get LeBron if the rest of the team sucks.”

    I disagree that the team would be all that much worse anyway (depending on exactly what the deal is), but if the Knicks pull this off and also get rid of Curry’s salary they can sign two bigtime free agents from among LeBron, Bosh, Wade, Amare, Tony Parker, etc. to go with what could be a nice group of young role players in Lee, Nate (assuming both can be resigned for maybe $15 mill combined), WC, Danilo, and a likely 2009 lottery pick. If 2 of those 5 are ready to leave their old digs, they will basically lure each other to NY. The Knicks would potentially be in a better position if they could pull off sign-and-trades, sine players can resign for more $ with their old teams…

    There are also benefits to cap flexibility that go way beyond the 2010 free agency class and the biggest free agent names.

  31. brandon101480

    or if malik rose is going to golden state as a expiring contract and we get harrington since their management is so screwed up right now.They just signed stephen jackson to a 3year deal im sure they are trying to cut costs

  32. Phil

    I almost had an orgasm when I read the trade headline.

    Jamal is a loser. ZBo is a loser. I appreciate their professionalism while they were on the Knicks and no doubt have talent..but this is a step backward to take a HUGE step forward.

    Seriously, wasn’t it like 2 months ago when EVERYONE said we just needed to get rid of ZBo? Actually thinking getting Darko in return might be worth it? DARKO?! Harrington is roughly 3 times the player DARKO is AND his contract expires. Isn’t this the whole point of rebuilding?! WE’RE IN A REBUILDING YEAR/ERA PEOPLE (people meaning those ppl actually against this trade)!!!!!

    The author of this blog actually had us losing 45+ games and most of us agreed, meaning we didn’t expect much this year, so why start now?! We were lucky to get what we could out of these guys. Also, if we get anything out of Curry, it’ll be a blessing, but the more I think about it, the more likely he gets bought out either next year, or the final year. Let’s just hope D’antoni can inflate his value so we can dump him too and get on the ’2010 SWEEPSTATES’ train.

  33. mase

    “Randolph and Crawford are not worth draft picks; they are not even worth expiring contracts. ”

    …but they are worth more than Cuttino, TT, and harrington!
    playoff teams will be beating down our door for these two guys by the deadline, esp. Zach if he continues to produce.

    i dont like this deal at all!

  34. njhoop

    Has anyone done the cap math? Could we really sign 2 big name free agents in 2010 if this deal goes through? That would negate the “LeBron will never come to play with a bunch of stiffs” argument.

    How about a starting backcourt of LeBron and D Wade?

  35. jon abbey

    this deal would also allow us to keep Lee, I think he’d be much more likely to sign long-term if we can clear Crawford and Randolph’s salaries.

  36. PaulNoize

    Crawford IS an expiring contract. He has minimal trade value with his ETO after this season, especially if he is traded to a sad-sack losing ballclub. Jamal absolutely NEEDS to be traded this year or else we will lose him for nothing in return this summer when he opts out.

    Z-Bo is another matter. He has hustled in the open floor, and been a beast offensively. He’s a sieve defensively and his overall productivity per salary cap dollar is not good due to his bloated contract. As Phil points out, his trade value appears to be rising.

    Does Walsh squeeze the trigger and now, and allow the enormous amount of available shots hasten the development of our young core (Nate & Chandler)? Or does he hesitate, thinking that he can sell even higher later in the year? Decisions, decisions…..i just wish some official word would come out as i am on the edge of my seat here at work on Friday, LOL!

  37. D

    Has anyone done the cap math? Could we really sign 2 big name free agents in 2010 if this deal goes through? That would negate the “LeBron will never come to play with a bunch of stiffs” argument.
    How about a starting backcourt of LeBron and D Wade?

    Using the salaries on Hoopshype then the knicks salary would be 21,678,304 assuming Curry and Jeffries exersise their player options and the knicks pick up Gallinari and Chandler’s options but do not keep Collins. The cap will probably be around $62 mil and the max contracts will be around $21 mil. That combination would be around $64 mil.

    That means they would be close to offering two max contracts but the knicks would also have their 2009 pic on the books and any other players (they would be way below the 12 player min)

  38. Italian Stallion

    Some of these possible trade combinations make us a worse team in the short term but solve a lot of our longer term problems. We have to clean house eventually, so I guess it should be done, but I have a funny feeling our team is going to be pretty ugly to watch again.

  39. brandon101480

    david lee sucks i hope he’s traded before the trading deadline. he can”t hit a jumper to save his life and he”s not even rebounding like he used to in previous years. he doesn”t fit in this system at all.

  40. TDM

    And from Alan Hahn:

    “Crawford-Harrington done…(UPDATED)
    It’s official. As Newsday reported this morning, the Knicks have just completed a deal that will send Jamal Crawford to the Golden State Warriors for Al Harrington.

    The Knicks haven’t announced anything yet and I’m told by an NBA source that is because the Knicks may not be done yet today….

    HOWEVER….the Clippers-Zach Randolph scenario we mentioned in the previous blog might not come to fruition.

    Hey, that’s why we call them rumors.

    Right now as it stands, I can’t figure out trading Crawford, a guard, for Harrington, a forward. You remove a bona fide scorer and leave a hole at the two-spot. If the Knicks are sincere with their stance that Stephon Marbury is not going to play regardless of situation, then you really are scraping the barrell in the backcourt.

    Do you go with Duhon-Robinson? Do you move Quentin Richardson to the two?

    Or do you unchain Marbury and open Pandora’s Box?

    Very curious situation here.

    Stay tuned….”

  41. Z-man

    So is Harrington a player or a placeholder?

    I like the idea of Nate getting more playing time for now.

    I would have no problem playing Steph 20-25 mpg to tide us over and to showcase him.

    Anyone care to revisit their W-L predictions for the year?

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