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Sunday, August 31, 2014

Report: Knicks and Magic Discussing Shumpert/Redick Trade

Alex Kennedy of Hoopsworld/USA Today reports that the Knicks and Magic have discussed a deal involving Iman Shumpert for JJ Redick. Here’s Kennedy:

The Magic and Knicks have discussed a J.J. Redick for Iman Shumpert trade. Other players (and maybe a third team) would have to be involved.

He follows:

Nothing imminent, but it’s something to keep an eye on over next few days. Redick helps NY win now, Shumpert gives ORL another young piece.

If you’re going to trade Iman Shumpert, JJ Redick is a pretty darn perfect guy to get in return. The guy is a career 40% three point shooter, a career 58.7% True Shooting Percentage and a good defender. Plus he’s young enough that he’ll likely be good for the foreseeable future.

Shumpert clearly has a higher upside than Redick, but is the high quality play that Redick pretty much guarantees you worth trading Shumpert?

I think I’d do it, but I wouldn’t feel great about it (especially since it would likely freak JR Smith the eff out “Oh hey, JR, you know how you’re a free agent and all? Well, we just traded for a better version of you who is also a free agent. You’re cool with that, right?”). It makes tons of sense for Orlando, though (although I wonder if they’d move Shump back to the point and have him be Nelson’s heir apparent – a Shump/Afflalo backcourt could be quite good in a few years).

90 comments on “Report: Knicks and Magic Discussing Shumpert/Redick Trade

  1. BigBlueAL

    If the Knicks do make a trade by the deadline on Thursday cant imagine it will have as great an impact as trading for Terry Cummings did at the 1998 trade deadline.

  2. nicos

    I HATED Redick at Duke but have to say he’s earned respect by working his ass off and playing hard every night. I think he’d fit in well- the Knicks won’t screen for him as much off of the ball but he’ll get better spot up looks and drives off of rotating defenders than he’s gotten in Orlando since the year they made the championship run. He’s certainly better than Shump at this point though I don’t count out Shump getting his defensive mojo back late in the season in which case he’d fill a real need in terms of on the ball defense. That said, I’d probably do the trade depending on what else is involved and hope it doesn’t completely freak JR out and cause some real chemistry issues. I think general team chemistry has been a somewhat underrated aspect of this team- everyone generally seems to be on the same page and pulling for each other and I wouldn’t mess with that lightly.

  3. massive

    I thought I’d defend my blind love for Iman Shumpert:

    I don’t think a Paul George level player is out of the question for Iman Shumpert. I can see his being a .550TS% guy on a 20-23% USG and premier defensive wing in the league much like Paul George is today. Paul George was a sub 30% 3 point shooter his rookie year, and this weekend he competed in the 3 Point Shootout. He won’t ever be the rebounder that Paul George is, but I more mean that in the end, “Paul George is to combo-wings as Iman Shumpert is to combo guards” would be an apt comparison. So yeah, not really Paul George, but a super-athletic defensive ace who can be a reliable scorer for you.

    And does anyone hate the idea of a Nelson for Felton swap? I think Nelson makes more money, but I think his shooting will make the P&R that much mire effective. I know his TS sucks right now, but maybe it’ll get back to his level of play when he was teamed up with a healthy D12.

  4. Brian Cronin

    I still think Sprewell is Shump’s upside. Maybe a slightly more efficient version of Spree. That’s still a very good, All-Star level player, don’t get me wrong. I don’t mean it as a knock on Shump, I just don’t see him as that similar of a player to George.

  5. Brian Cronin

    The following trade works in the trade machine:

    Shumpert, Felton, Novak, Thomas, White and Copeland for Nelson and Redick.

    The Magic would presumably then cut Thomas and White.

    For the Magic, it would cut their payouts a lot (as Felton makes less than half the money Nelson makes) while getting them Shumpert, who they could develop for the future. Novak would replace the lost three-point shooting from Redick.

  6. Brian Cronin

    It’d be funny to see that trade, if only because I’d like to see the Knicks explain how they would be willing to add Nelson and Redick’s salary (as you’re not re-signing Redick for less than $6 million per, I would imagine) to the luxury tax bill in 2014-15.

  7. Brian Cronin

    The Knicks could then sign a couple of players to contracts with non-guarantees for next season so that Grunwald could work his magic with them in the offseason, dealing them for other players where the other team could then just cut the incoming Knick player and then just basically erase the salary from their cap.

  8. BigBlueAL

    I think it would be pushing it to also trade Felton. I like Nelson and he is a better player than Felton but at this point of the season not sure if I wanna have to integrate an entire new starting backcourt especially PG. Plus Nelson isnt exactly the most durable of players.

  9. Brian Cronin

    I don’t think the Magic would be interested in adding Kidd or Camby. Camby’s contract at least is partially non-guaranteed, but I think that’s only for 2014-15. I think it is still guaranteed for next season, and that’s not something that the Magic would want.

  10. massive

    I don’t think JR Smith would be too worried about JJ Redick. JJ Redick would be the starter and Smith would be the 6th man. We can’t count on Kidd to be around forever, and I think he and Camby will retire after this season. A starting 5 of Nelson, Kidd, Redick, Anthony, and Chandler with JR and Amar’e off the bench would be a great one heading into the post season. JJ Redick’s off-ball prowess would be such a great dimension to add to our offense, but I really don’t think I can stomach trading away another home-grown Knick. It’s about as good a deal as we can get, though.

  11. Brian Cronin

    Al is likely correct that adding an entirely new backcourt this late in the season is probably pushing things. So I guess Novak/Shump (plus maybe the Knicks’ 2017 second rounder, since the Knicks seem to trade draft picks like candy) for Redick.

  12. massive

    Oh, and how smart was Orlando for not taking Brook Lopez? Nikola Vucevic is great value on his rookie contract and appears like he will at least be a better rebounding version of Brook. Mo Harkless isn’t half bad, either

  13. yellowboy90

    If Felton did get traded I wouldn’t blame him for kicking over every cooler, table, and chair. lol.

  14. iserp

    I’d be disappointed if this happens. Shump is coming from an injury and is playing at the SF where he shouldn’t be. I know Redick would contribute more right away… but Shumpert just needs a bit of time to be a legitimate two way player.

  15. Brian Cronin

    If Felton did get traded I wouldn’t blame him for kicking over every cooler, table, and chair. lol.

    I wouldn’t wish to see Ray be screwed over, but I can’t help but admit that it would be kind of funny just to see how angry he would be if he gave the Knicks a below market deal and then…got traded only to re-sign with the Knicks on a really below market deal and then…got traded again.

  16. Robert Silverman

    J.J. Redick for Kurt/White/Brewer/Cope/Shump works as well. As much as I abhor the thought of dealing away Iman, it’d be a trade the Knicks have to consider.

    J.J.’s a solid defender and the floor-spacing…sweet mother of mercy.

  17. yellowboy90

    Did the Knicks use the whole 3 mill this summer because if they include a 3rd team say Minny they could possibly swing a deal receiving Redick and Ridnour by giving Orl Shump and Thomas then Minny gets Novak, Brewer, and cash or a 2nd rounder.

    Or maybe Minny would just dump Ridnour for Brewer and White to help pay Peko.

  18. BigBlueAL

    I havent seen a fan base overrate one of their own young players this much since Yankee fans with Jesus Montero lol.

    In all seriousness I agree with Shump’s ceiling being someone like Spree who I freaking loved when he was a Knick but in fairness he wasnt a very good offensive player. Actually looking at his advanced stats as a Knick he apparently wasnt even an average player for the most part. Screw that though, still freaking loved him lol.

  19. yellowboy90

    Another good Redick trait is he is an facilitator. HAving a reliable floor spacer in the starting unit is basically like having early year Kidd except redick can penetrate better.

  20. Brian Cronin

    I think the Knicks held out on using the $3 million this summer, so yes, they still have that to play with. I imagine Grunwald wants it available in June in case the Knicks could pick up a draft pick, but yes, they have the money if they want to use it (I could be wrong, but I went through all of the offseason trades and none of them mention the Knicks spending money).

  21. yellowboy90

    Robert Silverman:
    J.J. Redick for Kurt/White/Brewer/Cope/Shump works as well. As much as I abhor the thought of dealing away Iman, it’d be a trade the Knicks have to consider.

    J.J.’s a solid defender and the floor-spacing…sweet mother of mercy.

    That makes some since for the Knicks too because that way they can add some roster fillers with non guaranteed 2nd yrs to play with this summer.

  22. yellowboy90

    Brian Cronin:
    Yeah, exactly. I really wonder why other NBA GMs aren’t copying Grunwald yet. Or maybe they are and I just didn’t notice.

    Yeah the Gadz signing blew my mind. This guy(Grun) is trying to play chess. What made it even better is that a lot of fans thought it was a terrible signing.

    Anyway, all that being said. I will not fall for these rumors. As a lame MC once said “nothing ever changing so tonight is like tomorrow night”. lol.

  23. SeeWhyDee77

    I don’t know how to feel about this 1. Redick is a PERFECT fit either as the starting 2 or a backup 2. I’m more inclined to wait on Shump cuz the kid is young and plays D. Some might say his shot and shot selection might hurt the offense…to that I say he has great form and lift on his J. Shooting coach can fix his stroke easy cuz he’s got so much to work with. I almost would rather trade JR for Redick..but JR plays better D and can get his own shot. So..I’m a lil torn. I don’t think I would be too upset if this trade happened even though I flat out love Shump. If we move him it would be imperative that we get a pick as well. Can’t give up a young asset for a fit in the offense without getting more in return. Shump has too much upside.

  24. d-mar

    I think Tony Allen is a much more likely ceiling for Shump than Sprewell. Spree had a deadly midrange pull up, which I just don’t see Shump developing any time soon, and he was also a strong finisher who drew a lot of fouls, which again I don’t see in Iman. Maybe he’ll develop all those skills down the line, but I don’t see it.

    I love me some Shump, but I have to do this deal if it’s offered.

  25. SeeWhyDee77

    d-mar:
    I think Tony Allen is a much more likely ceiling for Shump than Sprewell. Spree had a deadly midrange pull up, which I just don’t see Shump developing any time soon, and he was also a strong finisher who drew a lot of fouls, which again I don’t see in Iman. Maybe he’ll develop all those skills down the line, but I don’t see it.

    I love me some Shump, but I have to do this deal if it’s offered.

    I see the similarities in Allen and Shump but I think that ceiling is a lil low for him as he is already a better offensive player. But ur right..Spree he is not. Spree was fantastic. I think he was underrated..way underrated. He had to sacrifice so much in NY. As far as Shump..first let’s clear up one thing. He is miscast as a 1 or even a combo guard. He is a 2 who can dribble and pass. Honestly the best thing for Shump is to let him settle in at the 2 alongside a strong 1. That bein said, I think he should replace Kidd in the starting 5. Now this might be even crazier, but with guys like Brew JR Stat Cope and Sheed on the bench, I would start Novak at either the 3 or 4 to spread the floor since teams don’t respect Shump’s J yet. Considering that Shump’s still not all the way back yet, I think we still got time for that kinda rotation to grow..especially since we can’t rely in Kidd for heavy minutes anyway and JR is gonna play big minutes too. That way Novak can also get looks without worryin about Stat and JR takin all the 2nd unit shots. I think it balances things. Room for Melo to operate, more looks for Novak..and Kidd to run that second unit to get Stat and JR easier shots.

  26. flossy

    yellowboy90:
    If Felton did get traded I wouldn’t blame him for kicking over every cooler, table, and chair. lol.

    Hah! Right? Then fast forward to 2015: “Hey Raymond… if you take a below-market value contract again we reeeeeally promise this time we won’t trade you halfway through one season [just kidding of course we will]!”

  27. SeeWhyDee77

    flossy: Hah!Right? Then fast forward to 2015:“Hey Raymond… if you take a below-market value contract again we reeeeeally promise this time we won’t trade you halfway through one season [just kidding of course we will]!”

    lol true

  28. flossy

    Love Iman Shumpert but he would have to substantially improve on offense just to reach the level of guys like Tony Allen and Thabo Sefalosha, to say nothing of Paul George or Latrell Sprewell or whatever.

    As long as he’s a Knick I’ll root for him and hope like hell he becomes great but if you can flip him for a clear-cut upgrade like Redick you do it and don’t look back. Redick is playing like a poor man’s Celtic’s-era Ray Allen.

  29. Frank

    I don’t really get why trading for Redick is so much better than trading for Dudley to be honest. I know stats don’t tell the whole story on those two (Redick is better as a creator on offense, for instance), but both guys are very good shooters, mostly secondary/tertiary option-type guys, and are offense-first guys. The difference is that Redick has only this year left on his deal and presumably will be looking for a raise (and would clearly take us well past our 2014-15 horizon in terms of guaranteed money) whereas Dudley is signed for relative peanuts (Novak money) through ’16.

    Redick is definitely a better player than Dudley, but he’s not so much better that we would trade Shump and not get draft picks back like people were talking about in the PHX trade.

    What we should do is either start JR or Copeland and play them at the 3. Move Shump to the 2. Move Kidd to the bench where he can bring some order to that awful 2nd unit. DONE. No need to give up our best piece for a guy that we will end up overpaying for in the offseason.

    I really do not see trading a young stud (overvalued or not – we don’t know yet) at the absolute cellar of his trade value as a good idea. What we DO know is that last year when he was healthy, when you put him on a guy, that guy either became horribly inefficient and turnover-prone while scoring lots (Rose), or basically disappeared from the game (Calderon after Calderon had torched J-Lin 50x in a row). I think he’s horribly miscast as a 3 – and hopefully they are doing that for some injury-related purpose I can’t figure out.

  30. SeeWhyDee77

    flossy:
    Love Iman Shumpert but he would have to substantially improve on offense just to reach the level of guys like Tony Allen and Thabo Sefalosha, to say nothing of Paul George or Latrell Sprewell or whatever.

    I don’t kno. I’ll give u that Tony Allen an Thabo are more efficient on offense than Shump is. But Shump has the handle and passing ability they don’t have. But considerin how the team is structured Redick is a way better fit than any 2 guard on the roster. My line of thinkin is..and I’m sure we all feel this way..I would love to make moves for now while still building somethin for the future. Personally I don’t think Redick is a better talent but right now he definitely is the better player and fit. With our win now mentality I agree that u make this trade. But Shump can and probably will be good for Orlando for years so hopefully we can squeeze somethin else out of them since they are in rebuild mode. I guess it’s my fandom of Shump that makes this call so tough for me lol. If the trade is made, Redick BETTER grow a hi top fade lol

  31. SeeWhyDee77

    Frank:

    What we should do is either start JR or Copeland and play them at the 3. Move Shump to the 2. Move Kidd to the bench where he can bring some order to that awful 2nd unit. DONE.No need to give up our best piece for a guy that we will end up overpaying for in the offseason.

    Yes..Cope is a good option to start as well as he won’t require big minutes or a whole lot of shots an can spread the floor as well

  32. flossy

    Redick is a much better shooter than Dudley. Dudley is a stand-in-the-corner kind of shooter. Efficient from his comfort zones and not prone to taking bad shots. Redick can shoot from anywhere–spotting up, off curls, behind picks, off the dribble–and he can hit with a hand in his face. That’s what allows him to take 3s at nearly double the rate as Dudley and stay above .400.

    I don’t know if Phoenix ever really offered to throw in a first round pick with Dudley–that’s something a lot of us assumed would or could be part of a deal but it might not be on the table.

  33. Frank

    flossy:
    Redick is a much better shooter than Dudley.Dudley is a stand-in-the-corner kind of shooter.Efficient from his comfort zones and not prone to taking bad shots.Redick can shoot from anywhere–spotting up, off curls, behind picks, off the dribble–and he can hit with a hand in his face.That’s what allows him totake 3s at nearly double the rate as Dudley and stay above .400.

    I don’t know if Phoenix ever really offered to throw in a first round pick with Dudley–that’s something a lot of us assumed would or could be part of a deal but it might not be on the table.

    I totally agree that Redick is a better player than Dudley. But again – scoring is NOT the problem with this team. Even since our cold streak started, we’re scoring at a top 3 level (107.6 points/100 poss since Christmas per NBA.com’s new awesome stats tool). It’s our defense that stinks. Unless we’re going back to the D’Antoni way of thinking that we’re just going to outscore everyone, I don’t really get how trading our best perimeter defender is going to make us better on that end of the floor. As Zach Lowe has written a few times, it is exceedingly rare for a true title contender to have an average or below defense, which is what we have right now. Now maybe Ruru is right – that a lot of this is effort-based on the defensive end — hopefully that is true.

    I would agree that we do need someone not named JR Smith to step up as a true secondary scorer to anchor the 2nd unit, but I’m not sure that is as critical a need as someone to lock down opposing PG/SG-types. And we already have that guy on our team – he’s probably not 100% in terms of health but my guess is that he’ll be somewhere close to that by the time the games really start counting in late April/May/June.

  34. maxwell_3g

    Its a vicious cycle…..
    Knicks fans in the present (throughout eternity)- “Yes, lets trade this young player for a prover player on a crummy team”
    Knicks fans in the future (throughout eternity)- “Why does our stupid team always trade young talent for players that are only good on sorry teams”.

    Whe we got annihilated by the HEAT last year in the playoffs, we all had the same analysis- “Our chances went to hell as soon as Shump shredded his knee. We had no one to cover James OR Wade”

    and now we all want to trade this same player for a pretty one dimensional player on a poor team who cant cover wade or James…..AWESOME!!!!

  35. Frank

    maxwell_3g:
    Its a vicious cycle…..
    Knicks fans in the present (throughout eternity)-“Yes, lets trade this young player for a prover player on a crummy team”
    Knicks fans in the future (throughout eternity)-“Why does our stupid team always trade young talent for players that are only good on sorry teams”.

    Whe we got annihilated by the HEAT last year in the playoffs, we all had the same analysis-“Our chances went to hell as soon as Shump shredded his knee.We had no one to cover James OR Wade”

    and now we all want to trade this same player for a pretty one dimensional player on a poor team who cant cover wade or James…..AWESOME!!!!

    +10000

  36. flossy

    maxwell_3g: and now we all want to trade this same player for a pretty one dimensional player on a poor team who cant cover wade or James…..AWESOME!!!!

    Please. Nobody can shut down Wade or James and Redick is not even close to one-dimensional. He has an elite skill and really no glaring weaknesses. Iman Shumpert has sucked since coming back, was horrible offensively last year and all throughout college and overrated defensively as well. The Knicks managed to shut down the Heat twice this year without Shumpert and have shown they don’t need him to lock down on defense when they try. This trade would be a no-brainer.

  37. Juany8

    As much as I love Shump, I think I’d go for this. Shump’s realistic ceiling to me is Tony Allen with a jumper, and as awesome as that would be I think Reddick is good enough that it’s worth the risk. He’s an awesome off ball scorer who can do a solid job defending both guard positions and has some passing and penetrating skills. He also won’t make as many mistakes as Shump is bound to, just because of that he’ll probably be a better off ball defender at least for a year or two. It’s very intruiging, although if the Knicks have to give up anything else of note (I’ve been saying Novak should be benched all year so that doesn’t count) it’s not worth it

  38. Juany8

    flossy: Please.Nobody can shut down Wade or James and Redick is not even close to one-dimensional.He has an elite skill and really no glaring weaknesses.Iman Shumpert has sucked since coming back, was horrible offensively last year and all throughout college and overrated defensively as well.The Knicks managed to shut down the Heat twice this year without Shumpert and have shown they don’t need him to lock down on defense when they try.This trade would be a no-brainer.

    There’s a massive difference between not being able to shut Wade down and being dominated by Wade. If you can at least slow him down, you won’t have to automatically double team. He won’t constantly compromise your offense just by getting the ball. Furthermore, the harder he has to work to score the harder it will be for him to play hard on D

  39. Frank

    Juany8: There’s a massive difference between not being able to shut Wade down and being dominated by Wade. If you can at least slow him down, you won’t have to automatically double team. He won’t constantly compromise your offense just by getting the ball. Furthermore, the harder he has to work to score the harder it will be for him to play hard on D

    if JJ had to guard Wade, they would literally post Wade on every single play which would force endless doubling and switching. LBJ is good enough that he doesn’t need to play 4-on-3 every possession.

    That being said, I kinda feel like Kidd does a pretty good job against Wade for the most part. Doesn’t fall for all the stupid head fakes, is strong enough to not get posted easily, and smart enough to direct him towards Tyson in the middle.

  40. flossy

    Juany8: There’s a massive difference between not being able to shut Wade down and being dominated by Wade. If you can at least slow him down, you won’t have to automatically double team. He won’t constantly compromise your offense just by getting the ball. Furthermore, the harder he has to work to score the harder it will be for him to play hard on D

    There’s more than one way to slow down Wade. Do you think he wants to spend his every moment on the court having to stay inside JJ Redick’s jersey?

    Shump’s defensive reputation against Wade is pretty much based on a single 2-possession sequence when he stripped him (and turned it back over in between). Big whoop. You know who else had a reputation as a Wade stopper not long ago? Ronnie Brewer. Look at him now. Totally useless. Redick adds another huge dimension to the offense and means less of Jason Kidd freelancing on defense and watching ballhandlers blow by him.

    For this deal not to be worth it you’d have to be 100% certain that Shumpert not only gets back to, but significantly improves on, his play from last year. Obviously that’s not possible to know and also probably not even likely.

  41. Frank

    flossy: There’s more than one way to slow down Wade. Do you think he wants to spend his every moment on the court having to stay inside JJ Redick’s jersey?

    Shump’s defensive reputation against Wade is pretty much based on a single 2-possession sequence when he stripped him (and turned it back over in between). Big whoop. You know who else had a reputation as a Wade stopper not long ago? Ronnie Brewer. Look at him now. Totally useless. Redick adds another huge dimension to the offense and means less of Jason Kidd freelancing on defense and watching ballhandlers blow by him.

    very fair point re: Wade having to chase Redick everywhere. In fact, we don’t have a single player that opposing wings have to chase everywhere.

    A bigger picture is what happens with Redick after this year. Whether Shump develops into Sprewell or “just” Tony Allen, I would NOT be willing to trade him just to rent Redick for 3-4 months. And even if we do re-sign him, then I’m sure Redick will get something like 4 years at 8M per – which then stretches into the 16-17 season – the kind of contract that might be the difference between signing a max player like Kevin Love after Amare/Melo/Tyson come off the cap at the end of the 14-15 season. Melo/Tyson’s cap holds will be huge (I assume we would renounce Amare’s bird rights at that point) – haven’t done the math but my guess is that getting a max FA after that season will be very very tight.

  42. Nick C.

    Sorry to multi-post but this Shumpert could be Tony Allen with a jump short or Latrell Sprewell has gorra stop. Spree was good to great from his rookie season. Look at his #s with GS they are miles above his NYK. It reminds me of (I hope not the same guys) where Balkman was talked of as havign a ceiling as the next Rodman. Maybe Shump’s ceiling is Trenton Hassell with a better handle or Anthony Carter with less of one. As far as the trade while the Knicks are in win now mode is Redick is just a rental they better win the championship or else it was a waste.

  43. mcliff05

    Since when is Redick considered a good defender? Someone please explain that one. And even if he is a servicable defender, he is significantly worse than Shump (pre-injury). Talk of Shump’s potential upside over his career is directly tied to/far less important than your belief of his future play this year. If you think Shump is forever a different player due to the injury ala Brandon Roy than trade him. If you think he is still gaining confidence that his knee wont explode if he tries to go up for an alley-oop or defend a cross over than keep him around, we will need that Shump for the playoffs!

  44. maxwell_3g

    flossy: . Iman Shumpert has sucked since coming back, was horrible offensively last year and all throughout college and overrated defensively as well. The Knicks managed to shut down the Heat twice this year without Shumpert and have shown they don’t need him to lock down on defense when they try. This trade would be a no-brainer.

    a few things
    1) shump has been back like 10 games
    2) since coming back from a torn ACL
    3) fitting in with a bunch of new teammates, including 2 new starting guards
    4) playing out of position (the 3)
    5) amidst constant trade chatter
    6) as much as shump “sucked” last year, basketball minds seemed to differ, as he was an all-rookie performer
    7) hes on his rookie contract for two more year

    while Im sure that isaiah thomas would salivate at the chance to trade a young, cheap, talented player, at the absolute low point of their value for a 3 month rental who is detined to be a regettable contract if re-signed, Im hoping that our current leadership has more sense

  45. Owen

    I also can’t believe how highly rated Shump is on this site. I think his ceiling is a quality rotation guy, nothing more. Nothing about him screams star at this point. I never felt like he had star potential before the knee injury. Not sure what has changed…..

  46. Frank

    Owen:
    I also can’t believe how highly rated Shump is on this site. I think his ceiling is a quality rotation guy, nothing more. Nothing about him screams star at this point. I never felt like he had star potential before the knee injury. Not sure what has changed…..

    If his most likely comp is Tony Allen (and I think that is a good comp), then he’s still more than just random joe-schmo quality rotation guy. Tony Allen basically transformed that Memphis team into the ball-hawking aggressive defense they are. Even if he just turns into a Bruce Bowen-like player (ie. very high quality defender, 3 point shooter), that’s still an integral part of a championship team. And of course, the other side of it is that he’s young and very inexpensive right now.

    I do think comparisons to Wade or others are more than a bit ridiculous though. Wade came right into the league and dominated. Shump was older than Wade coming out, and even though he has all the measurable athleticism, doesn’t seem to be able to use it as effectively. Maybe some of that can be coached in, but the idea that he’s going to be dunking in traffic like Wade is probably pretty far-fetched even when totally healthy.

  47. Z-man

    Shump was widely regarded as the best rookie defensive guard in the league last year. It boggles my mind how little regard people here seem to have for the defensive side of the ball. If healthy, he is without question a difference maker on that side of the ball. On offense, he has shot over 36% from 3 since the all-star break last year, so far over 40% this year. His main issue is getting to the rim, which is to be expected after coming back from ACL surgery.

    Whether he’s better than Redick or not is not the issue for me, it’s whether you are trading a 22yo potential all-NBA caliber defender with way more offensive potential than Brewer (who cant handle th3e ball, pass or shoot and really is much more of a SF than a SG) at his absolute lowest market value. I say be patient with Shump this year and deal him in the off-season if you don’t like what you see. The kid has worked his ass off to get back and deserves more than 13 games to work his way in. This week off should definitely help him, let’s see how he does in the next few games.

  48. Robtachi

    Let’s all be quite honest with ourselves; the reason Shump is so highly thought of on this site, particularly when discussing trade rumors, is because we Knicks fans are just plain sick and dog-tired of this franchise letting likable, homegrown young assets slip away and not making those moves (or lack of a move) count with what comes in return. Fans crave “franchise players”. Look at this whole saga with the Celtics’ “will they or won’t they?” surrounding guys like Pierce, Rondo and occasionally Avery Bradley. Young organizational favorites or guys who have been identified with the team their whole career are always more highly rated by the hometown fans and media as well as by their front office. So when you talk about trading those guys, you always want to feel like you’re getting something really, really worthwhile in return, even if your expectations buck objective basketball analysis. And you certainly don’t want to let one go for what feels like very little or nothing at all (Jeremy Lin), unless the dollars aren’t justified on someone who is really just not very good (Landry Fields).

    That Melo trade still looks really good despite Gallo being a nice player.

  49. flossy

    Z-man: If healthy, he is without question a difference maker on that side of the ball.

    Well, opponents’ eFG% and offensive efficiency was higher last year with Shumpert ON the court than with him off, so what difference is he making again?

    Z-man: I say be patient with Shump this year and deal him in the off-season if you don’t like what you see.

    Deal him for what? You think anything of value will be available this off-season if he follows up an uneven rookie year with a major injury and a bad sophomore season? You think a someone will trade a JJ Redick-caliber player for him then? Redick is an elite shooter and solid all-around player.

  50. Frank

    flossy: Deal him for what? You think anything of value will be available this off-season if he follows up an uneven rookie year with a major injury and a bad sophomore season? You think a someone will trade a JJ Redick-caliber player for him then? Redick is an elite shooter and solid all-around player.

    Actually I think the market will still be good for him regardless of how he plays. He just came off a major knee injury. Not everyone can take PEDs have a miraculous recovery from ACL surgery like Adrian Peterson. Derrick Rose can’t even dunk the ball right now – this from a guy who used to dunk in traffic with 2 hands.

    Redick is a very good player, but IMHO you can’t just think about this season. Shump is cheap through the 15-16 season. Redick is a rental, and has already said that he doesn’t really like the NYC area — Shump for a Redick rental? no thanks.

  51. flossy

    Frank: Redick is a very good player, but IMHO you can’t just think about this season. Shump is cheap through the 15-16 season. Redick is a rental, and has already said that he doesn’t really like the NYC area — Shump for a Redick rental? no thanks.

    I think the entire trade would have to be predicated on Redick being willing to re-sign and Dolan being willing to go into the tax to pay him something close to market value. If not, then this whole discussion is moot.

    I disagree that he’ll still have any trade value if his play doesn’t improve this season. People are willing to be patient with Rose because he was a dominant player. If Shumpert has a bad season because he’s still recovering from injury, what are other teams supposed to realistically hope? That he’ll “return to form?” He was a net minus last year too! The longer a player with no track record of success plays poorly, the lower their value drops.

  52. Frank

    flossy: I disagree that he’ll still have any trade value if his play doesn’t improve this season. People are willing to be patient with Rose because he was a dominant player. If Shumpert has a bad season because he’s still recovering from injury, what are other teams supposed to realistically hope? That he’ll “return to form?” He was a net minus last year too! The longer a player with no track record of success plays poorly, the lower their value drops.

    Hmm. Pretty sure that if we want to trade him + filler to PHX for Dudley, that trade will be available anytime. They love Shump, and the track record for players returning to form after ACL surgery is good enough that I’m pretty sure people think he’ll be fine. It’d be one thing if he had a $8M salary, or if he’s Darrelle Revis and wants a franchise QB-like contract. But Shump doesn’t – he’s as cheap as cheap comes in this NBA. And restricted until 15-16. Young, hungry, cheap, restricted, talented, well-spoken, well-liked, coachable, hardworking. Those are gold in the NBA.

  53. JK47

    There is some definite homerism going on here with Shump. Granted he’s only in his second season now but he’s played about 2,000 minutes now and has a .478 career TS% and has already had one major injury. Redick is by all accounts a solid defender and on the offensive side of the ball Shumpert is probably never going to catch up to him.

    Like it or not, this is a win-now team, a win-now team that as currently constituted cannot “win now.” Other than Jason Kidd, there isn’t a single guard on the roster with a TS% over .500. Isn’t this going to be a problem come playoff time?

  54. Frank

    JK47: Other than Jason Kidd, there isn’t a single guard on the roster with a TS% over .500. Isn’t this going to be a problem come playoff time?

    Prigs’s TS is 58.7 but point made.
    So you WOULD trade Shump for a Redick rental?
    Remember – even assuming optimistically that the cap goes up by ~$10MM from now in 14-15, we will have $44MM in cap holds between Melo and Tyson. We’ll have $11MM more in actual committed 2015-16 salary assuming Felton opts in, and that’s not counting any draft picks. So that’ll put us at ~$55M which would be barely enough to make a near-max offer. That’s also not counting JR, who probably has a *wink wink* deal for the full Early Bird after this year. So if you trade for Redick and resign him for $8MM/year, you’ve basically killed all chance of getting a significant free agent in for 15-16. And the only way we’ll get a max FA in any case is if Melo and Tyson accept pay cuts and/or we let one of them go.

    Wow, I really just depressed myself.

  55. Brian Cronin

    I don’t see Redick getting $8 million to re-sign, but yes, even at his current salary, he’ll likely throw the Knicks’ luxury tax out of whack (which would be awfully amusing, really, as it would pretty much call ‘BS’ on the ‘we don’t want to spend too much on the luxury tax’ excuse from when they passed on Lin).

    By the way, Felton in 2015 is an interesting case. I believe the Knicks will have his full Bird Rights by then (since he was traded from Portland), so will he opt in for $4 million or seek a larger deal himself?

  56. flossy

    Frank: Young, hungry, cheap, restricted, talented, well-spoken, well-liked, coachable, hardworking. Those are gold in the NBA.

    Eh, you basically just described Toney Douglas. Teams don’t value young players who can’t score with any efficiency and show more potential than production on defense.

  57. nicos

    flossy: Eh, you basically just described Toney Douglas.Teams don’t value young players who can’t score with any efficiency and show more potential than production on defense.

    His ability to force turnovers was absolutely elite last year- elite as in substantially better than any other ball/wing defender per synergy. Better than Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Chris Paul, Deng, etc… He did foul a fair amount but he didn’t sit in the passing lanes gambling for steals either. We’re not talking about potential to be a good defender, if he gets healthy we’re talking about the potential to be the best perimeter defender in the league- that’s not something you give up on easily.

  58. Frank

    flossy: Eh, you basically just described Toney Douglas.Teams don’t value young players who can’t score with any efficiency and show more potential than production on defense.

    Sorry – should have added “and not totally undersized for his position”. And no one would confuse Toney Douglas’s athleticism for Shump’s.

  59. flossy

    Frank: Sorry – should have added “and not totally undersized for his position”.And no one would confuse Toney Douglas’s athleticism for Shump’s.

    What is his position? Point guard who can’t pass? Shooting guard who can’t shoot?

  60. maxwell_3g

    Z-man:
    Shump was widely regarded as the best rookie defensive guard in the league last year. It boggles my mind how little regard people here seem to have for the defensive side of the ball.If healthy, he is without question a difference maker on that side of the ball. On offense, he has shot over 36% from 3 since the all-star break last year, so far over 40% this year. His main issue is getting to the rim, which is to be expected after coming back from ACL surgery.

    Whether he’s better than Redick or not is not the issue for me, it’s whether you are trading a 22yo potential all-NBA caliber defender with way more offensive potential than Brewer (who cant handle th3e ball, pass or shoot and really is much more of a SF than a SG) at his absolute lowest market value. I say be patient with Shump this year and deal him in the off-season if you don’t like what you see. The kid has worked his ass off to get back and deserves more than 13 games to work his way in. This week off should definitely help him, let’s see how he does in the next few games.

    right on bro

  61. maxwell_3g

    flossy: What is his position?Point guard who can’t pass?Shooting guard who can’t shoot?

    flossy. you sound ridiculous. first of all, diud i miss redick’s great passing and playmaking. i didnt realize he is so elite in those areas. second, shump cant shoot??? really?? hes off of acl surgery and shooting 41% from three this year. please tell us that you just started being a knicks fan this year, so we can understand. but if you’ve been a fan for a while, its unbelievable that you dont realize that weve seen the knicks, very unsuccessfully, make dumb trades like this angain and again and again over the past 2 decades. you dont trade cheap, young talent for role players on sorry teams.

  62. BigBlueAL

    maxwell_3g: flossy.you sound ridiculous.first of all, diud i miss redick’s great passing and playmaking.i didnt realize he is so elite in those areas.second, shump cant shoot???really??hes off of acl surgery and shooting 41% from three this year.please tell us that you just started being a knicks fan this year, so we can understand.but if you’ve been a fan for a while, its unbelievable that you dont realize that weve seen the knicks, very unsuccessfully, make dumb trades like this angain and again and again over the past 2 decades.you dont trade cheap, young talent for role players on sorry teams.

    Redick the past few seasons has been a very good player on some pretty good Magic teams. This season he is the best player on a horrible team but he has had success in the past playing for some very good teams.

  63. steveoh

    My biggest issue with Shumpert actually isn’t about his play, but rather, how he’s being utilized. I don’t understand why he’s not guarding the other team’s primary ballhandler. I don’t understand why he’s guarding jump shooters. I don’t understand why Woodson isn’t addressing this. It would help defensively. We’d be undersized, but we’re being burned with penetration. And that breaks everything down.

    I like JJ Redick. I think he’s a helluva shooter, a much improved all-around player and he competes his ass off on defense. If we’re not gonna move Shumpert to an on-the-ball defensive role, then let’s make that move.

  64. maxwell_3g

    BigBlueAL: Redick the past few seasons has been a very good player on some pretty good Magic teams.This season he is the best player on a horrible team but he has had success in the past playing for some very good teams.

    we are getting some revisionist history. I actually like reddick for the most part, but his team stinks. when the magic were actually good, he was a complete weak link. i remeber those playoff series against the heat, where the magic needed another scorer/ playmaker in the backcourt more than anything, and he was utterly physically overwhelmed. He has gotten better since then, but he was never a real contributwer to the good magic teams

  65. flossy

    maxwell_3g: flossy.you sound ridiculous.first of all, diud i miss redick’s great passing and playmaking.i didnt realize he is so elite in those areas.second, shump cant shoot???really??hes off of acl surgery and shooting 41% from three this year.please tell us that you just started being a knicks fan this year, so we can understand.but if you’ve been a fan for a while, its unbelievable that you dont realize that weve seen the knicks, very unsuccessfully, make dumb trades like this angain and again and again over the past 2 decades.you dont trade cheap, young talent for role players on sorry teams.

    You can’t be serious man. Redick averages more assists per 36, fewer turnovers and had a higher assist percentage. Shump is shooting 41% from 3 this year on a whopping 29 total attempts. Wow! I’m so impressed. Good thing I wasn’t a Knicks fan last year or I’d have seen him brick 70% of his threes and known that he sucked at shooting in college too.

  66. Z

    Heard trade buzz and figured I’d swing by and see the reaction…

    Fwiw, Redick is a guy who seems pretty safe. A lottery pick who made the big leap his 4th year. He’s a good pro and should a good pro for a long time.

    I loved Shump, but you gotta either think his defense is truly top-tier or pray that he miraculously becomes a solid offensive player.

    Personally, I think I’d (probably foolishly) hang on to him. But, of course, I haven’t seen him play since his injury, and even before his injury his offense was cringe-inducing, so I’d understand a team like the Knicks trading him for Redick… (aka, if I was a Knick fan, this deal wouldn’t turn me a way from the team completely :)

    (ps– Brian, my iPad autocorrects Redick to Reddick for some reason, as of Reddick is such a commonly typed word. Huh?)

  67. maxwell_3g

    flossy: You can’t be serious man.Redick averages more assists per 36, fewer turnovers and had a higher assist percentage.Shump is shooting 41% from 3 this year on a whopping 29 total attempts.Wow!I’m so impressed.Good thing I wasn’t a Knicks fan last year or I’d have seen him brick 70% of his threes and known that he sucked at shooting in college too.

    again, i actually like jj, but remeber, he plays for the friggin Magic!!!!! he controls the ball a lot. he better have more assists per 36!!!! did you know??? charles smith average 20 points a game for the 1991 clippers (a 31-51 team). the knicks got him one year later and he never average more than 12.7 for us. Points are easier to come by for bad teams, because someone has to score, assist, rebound.
    beyond that obvious point that 99% of fans already understand, please explain how this move would project past this year (you know, when our season ends in a sweep by miami because no one can guard james or wade)…. just lose redick (and therefore shump) for nothing?? sign reddick for 4 years, 30 mill???

  68. Owen

    I generally hate watching college bball, but tuning into Indiana-Michigan State. I like this Oladipo character. Would have been a nice guy to get with a draft pick if Shump were actually worth a lottery pick…. (which I don’t think he is, but that was the rumor when Phoenix was a rumoured trade partner.)

    Not sure how many steals he has tonight, but it’s a bunch, and Oladipo definitely has the look of a future NBA steals leader and first team all defense player….

    And that seems off-topic, but point being there are guys like Shump in the draft…

  69. Z-man

    For argument’s sake, would you trade Shump straight up for Avery Bradley. Both are injury risks, both have career low PER and WS48 numbers (Shumps are slightly higher), both are age 22.

    I admit being partial to Shumpert (the record will show that I was the first to lobby for him here pre-draft) and I think he will be an impact player once he sorts some things out. His shooting is not universally poor, he actually has shot relatively well from 3 for his last 43 games (38 for 104 since last year’s all-star break, 36.5%) that’s a pretty good sample size. He’s historically a good FT shooter (80% as a rookie, 80% in his last year in college, so far 7-12 this year, should improve.) So I think to conclude that he will never be a good offensive player is a bit premature. And sure, he has some defensive weaknesses like any rookie, and he may not immediately regain the athleticism he had pre-injury. Shump’s stock was pretty high before he got hurt, and he seems to have a great work ethic. I’m hoping that this Redick stuff is just typical trade deadline noise and that Shump uses it a motivation.

  70. maxwell_3g

    just saw a report on realgm.com that claims that the the nuggets turned down a roy (expiring deal, nonguaranteed next year) and a first rounder for mozgov??!!! i must be missing something. moz is on the last year of his deal. why would the nuggets turn this down (assuming the report has some validity)??

  71. Brian Cronin

    just saw a report on realgm.com that claims that the the nuggets turned down a roy (expiring deal, nonguaranteed next year) and a first rounder for mozgov??!!! i must be missing something. moz is on the last year of his deal. why would the nuggets turn this down (assuming the report has some validity)??

    Minny’s own first rounder? If so, then yeah, that’s weird. It really depends on whose first rounder it is. I wouldn’t trade Mozgov for just a late first rounder. Although they mentioned that Denver doesn’t plan on bringing Mozgov back. If that’s true, then yeah, take whatever you can get for him.

  72. Brian Cronin

    I dunno what their Synergy figures are this year, but last year:

    Opponents averaged 0.84 points per possession when guarded by Shumpert
    Opponents averaged 0.74 points per possession when guarded by Bradley

    Opponents guarded by Shumpert averaged 40% from the field.
    Opponents guarded by Bradley averaged 34% from the field.

    I think when both players are healthy, Bradley is the better defender and is also more of a “true” point guard.

    But yeah, they’re roughly the same player. I just think Bradley is slightly better. And since age and contract is the same for both guys, I’d trade Shump for Bradley.

  73. Frank

    Brian Cronin: I think when both players are healthy, Bradley is the better defender and is also more of a “true” point guard.

    But yeah, they’re roughly the same player. I just think Bradley is slightly better. And since age and contract is the same for both guys, I’d trade Shump for Bradley.

    I dunno about that. I like Bradley a lot too but I would definitely not say that he’s a better offensive player than Shumpert. As a “true” point guard, he has a career assist% of 10.3 whereas Shump’s last year was 50% higher (15.6). Shumpert is also A LOT bigger (6’5″ 212lbs vs. 6’2″ 180 lbs) meaning he can probably credibly guard even the fastest points (like D-Rose), SGs, and most SFs. Bradley would get killed trying to guard most 3′s if they tried to post him up.

    Not that Shump is playing that well as a 3 right now, but I think I’d still take a healthy Shump over a healthy Bradley.

  74. Brian Cronin

    I dunno about that. I like Bradley a lot too but I would definitely not say that he’s a better offensive player than Shumpert. As a “true” point guard, he has a career assist% of 10.3 whereas Shump’s last year was 50% higher (15.6). Shumpert is also A LOT bigger (6’5? 212lbs vs. 6’2? 180 lbs) meaning he can probably credibly guard even the fastest points (like D-Rose), SGs, and most SFs. Bradley would get killed trying to guard most 3?s if they tried to post him up.

    Not that Shump is playing that well as a 3 right now, but I think I’d still take a healthy Shump over a healthy Bradley.

    I have no problem with discounting much of Shump’s struggles so far to recovering from his major injury, the same as Bradley, so I wouldn’t put too much stake in this season for either guy.

    Last year, though, they both played the whole year and Bradley had better defensive numbers (Bradley had some of the best defensive numbers in the entire NBA, right?) and Bradley had a 55% TS to Shump’s 48.4%.

    But yeah, it is fair to note that Shump had a better assist rate. It certainly isn’t like Bradley just blows Shump out of the water.

    By the way, I forgot that Bradley was drafted a year before Shump, so Shump’s contract is better. That does make the theoretical trade iffier.

  75. jon abbey

    Owen:
    I generally hate watching college bball, but tuning into Indiana-Michigan State. I like this Oladipo character. Would have been a nice guy to get with a draft pick if Shump were actually worth a lottery pick…. (which I don’t think he is, but that was the rumor when Phoenix was a rumoured trade partner.)

    Not sure how many steals he has tonight, but it’s a bunch, andOladipo definitely has the look of a future NBA steals leader and first team all defense player….

    And that seems off-topic, but point being there are guys like Shump in the draft…

    Oladipo is up to 5th on Chad Ford’s draft board already, and may go even higher in the end a la Russell Westbrook. I am allergic to watching a full Big 10 game, but the highlights from him last night were otherworldly.

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