Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, December 18, 2014

Quick Knick-Suns Stats + Trivia!

Some interesting tidbits handed to me from the ESPN Stats & Information Department.

  • How important was Amar’e Stoudemire to the Suns and now to the Knicks? The Knicks have a .588 win percentage this season, a .235 increase from last season, which is the biggest increase in the NBA from last season to this season. The Suns have a .424 win percentage this season, a .234 decrease from last season, which is second-biggest decrease in the NBA (Cavaliers – .515 decrease).
  • Amar’e Stoudemire played for Mike D’Antoni with the Suns and now with the Knicks. Stoudemire is one of nine active players to play for the same coach with two different franchises. The Suns have one of those players as well. Grant Hill played for Alvin Gentry in Detroit, in addition to Phoenix.
  • The Knicks are 10-7 on the road this season. New York won 11 road games all of last season. This season, the Knicks are 2-4 against .500+ teams on the road and 8-3 against sub .500 teams on the road. Last season, the Knicks were 3-20 against .500+ teams on the road and 8-10 against sub .500 teams on the road.
  • Nash … hasn’t been on a losing team since the 1999-2000 season (Mavs went 40-42)… The departures by Stoudemire and Leandro Barbosa were notable because it left Nash as the last player remaining from Phoenix’s 2006-07 team, when the Suns went 61-21, their second 60-win season in three years under Mike D’Antoni’s high-octane offense.
  • Raymond Felton is averaging more than 18 points and 8 assists per game this season. In [Knicks] franchise history, only two players have ever averaged 18 points and 8 assists for a season. Can you name them?
  • 61 comments on “Quick Knick-Suns Stats + Trivia!

    1. daJudge

      Great stats Mike. They really went down well with my morning coffee. 18/8—how about Stef and Clyde?

    2. Nick C.

      Nice info. So essentially this year’s club has almost equalled last year’s and it’s not even MLK Day. I will go with he who shall not be named and Michael Ray Richardson.

    3. DS

      It’s got to be Steph and Clyde (who got a lot but actually not a ton of assists).

      The 9 active players who have played for the same head coach with two franchises ARE: = 1) Stat 2) Hill 3) Devin Harris… this is too hard. Help me, but don’t cheat by looking it up.

    4. latke

      5) Jason Williams was on Miami with Stan Van Gundy I think
      6) Eddie House was on D’Antoni Suns and D’Antoni Knicks for a very short period
      7+8) Kevin Martin (pretty sure) and Brad Milller were on Adelman-coached kings and rockets…
      9) Maybe someone who was under Skiles on the suns/bulls/bucks?

    5. DS

      If Martin, Miller, and Williams are correct, that’s all 9. Pretty sure my six were correct… thanks! I would have never gotten those w/o cheating.

    6. Mike Kurylo Post author

      daJudge: Great stats Mike.They really went down well with my morning coffee. 18/8—how about Stef and Clyde?  

      Interestingly enough Marbury did it twice, and Clyde only did it once.

    7. Mike Kurylo Post author

      Interesting article on Stoudemire from Valley of the Suns:

      Stoudemire’s PER (23.85) is the highest it’s been since 2007-08 and is ninth best in the NBA (just behind Nash), but his usage rate is also at a career-high level, his true shooting percentage is the lowest it’s been since he was paired with Nash (and a good chunk lower than most of his years), and his rebound rate has only been lower twice his entire career. Only Rajon Rondo averages more turnovers per game than STAT’s 3.8 per contest and his turnover ratio has only been higher once since 2004-05.

      This isn’t to say Stoudemire isn’t having a fantastic season. He’s just doing the same thing he’s always done just slightly less efficiently, without Steve Nash and in a bigger market that’s craving a winner. Amare Stoudemire put up better second-half numbers than almost every player in the NBA last season as he carried the Suns down the stretch, so watching him do something similar in New York really is no surprise.

      There’s a lot more. I highly recommend you read the whole thing.

    8. daJudge

      I remember Steph had some crazy stats for assists and scoring that compared favorably to some great players. So sad.

    9. daJudge

      That is an interesting article on Amare. “It probably comes as no surprise that the Knicks are much better offensively with Stoudemire on the court (averaging 113.00 per 100 with him playing and 102.18 when he sits) but worse defensively as well (110.39 with him but 103.33 without him).” To me this reinforces something I have been harping on lately. On offense, Amare’s mismatch with the Center almost always favors the Knicks. On defense, this is not the case. In fact, playing Amare to avoid fouls (except T’s of course) is not well conceived IMO. I think this sets up for a conservative approach and also explains in part the high number of blocked shots. Putting it simply, I think we need a BIG who can shoot a little and pass out of the double and create mayhem and rebound on defense. Let’s take a look at Amare’s numbers after that. I know I’ve said this a lot, so I apologize for the redundancy—again!

    10. RJ in Brooklyn

      @daJudge – there are at best a handful of bigs who warrant a double & the Knicks ain’t getting one. Amare draws enough attention that the big simply needs to be able to finish at the rim & knock down open 15 footers.

      as to the article on the Suns blog, any so-called advanced stat that says the very nice, complementary part Landry Fields is way more valuable than Amare is worthless. it’s that kind of backward thinking that led the Suns right off a cliff in not signing Amare. now look where Nash & a big bag full of role players is headed – right into the lottery.

    11. David Crockett

      The Valley article is an interesting read, and it has some insightful analysis, but I think the overall narrative is a bit of a strawman. Well, strawman is perhaps an overstatement because I don’t think the author is out to dog Amare as such. In fact, he’s downright complimentary on the Amare’s maturity and leadership.

      I think what rankles me is that during the off-season not all the hysteria about Amare came from a fawning NY press or Knick fans craving an alpha dog. There was also some anti-STAT hysteria coming from APBR-friendly types, who are not–shockingly–somehow immune from hysteria. Perhaps I’m being prickly, but I recall some dire predictions about what Amare would become without Nash’s proverbial breast at which to suckle. His efficiency was supposed to fall off a cliff. Re-read the Haberstroh article on ESPN from July.

      http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5359842

      So, the narrative about Amare isn’t driven solely by the NY media hungry for a champion. Sure, that’s a big part of it. But there was no shortage of analysts ready to argue that STAT wasn’t going to have anywhere close to this kind of production absent Nash. So sure, the smart money was always that Amare wouldn’t change much save for somewhat lowered efficiency. That is not, however, where all the so-called smart *people* were this off-season.

    12. ess-dog

      David Crockett: The Valley article is an interesting read, and it has some insightful analysis, but I think the overall narrative is a bit of a strawman. Well, strawman is perhaps an overstatement because I don’t think the author is out to dog Amare as such. In fact, he’s downright complimentary on the Amare’s maturity and leadership.I think what rankles me is that during the off-season not all the hysteria about Amare came from a fawning NY press or Knick fans craving an alpha dog. There was also some anti-STAT hysteria coming from APBR-friendly types, who are not–shockingly–somehow immune from hysteria. Perhaps I’m being prickly, but I recall some dire predictions about what Amare would become without Nash’s proverbial breast at which to suckle. His efficiency was supposed to fall off a cliff. Re-read the Haberstroh article on ESPN from July.
      http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5359842So, the narrative about Amare isn’t driven solely by the NY media hungry for a champion. Sure, that’s a big part of it. But there was no shortage of analysts ready to argue that STAT wasn’t going to have anywhere close to this kind of production absent Nash. So sure, the smart money was always that Amare wouldn’t change much save for somewhat lowered efficiency. That is not, however, where all the so-called smart *people* were this off-season.  

      Well, Stat’s efficiency is the lowest it’s been since he was 21. It is slowly rising though. He is more of a ‘centerpiece’ here than he was in Phoenix. He’s posting up and taking more jumpers now. His usage is the highest it’s ever been.
      I think Nash is kind of a golden boy amongst sportswriters. It is warranted, but sometimes people go overboard.

    13. Z

      I see Isiah is still obsessing over his Knick legacy:

      In the NY Post today he discusses Wilson Chandler: “He is definitely playing at an All-Star level and has potential to be an All-Star. Of all the players I drafted there, he’s the only one who hasn’t played in the playoffs, won a championship, or been an All-Star. I’m happy for Wilson. I don’t mind putting my stamp on any guys I drafted there.”

      So… Isiah’s bar for great drafting is whether those picks go on to play in the playoffs. Never mind if they go to the playoffs with teams NOT NAMED THE KNICKS. (But hey, they begat “All-Stars” Steve Francis, Zach Randolph, and Taureen “Son of Sidney” Green).

      But I’m glad he’s proud of the Wilson Chandler pick. He only violated the rules of the draft to obtain him, possibly costing us future first rounders. (He DEFINITELY put his stamp on that one!)

      Oh, and one more thing– was Mardy Collins an All-Star? Did he win a championship? Did he go to the playoffs? (Is he even in the league?)

      What scares me most about that guy is how he can’t seem to hear just how stupid he sounds.

    14. Nick C.

      Z: I haven;’t gotten aroudn to the Post yet so what *%$#@ writer went trolling along the sea bottom to dredge him up for a quote.

    15. cgreene

      In addition the Valley of The Sun article does not mention that Amare’s assist rate is double his career average along with his blocks rate. So with the increased usage comes some efficiency slippage in scoring but other aspects of his game have been enhanced most notably his passing which I think has been somewhat overlooked in discussions on the blog. Also assists plus usage are why his PER is up.

      Passing and facilitating the offense has been a noticeable to-the-naked-eye improvement IMO.

      Can someone crunch the numbers minus the 3-8 start? I don’t know how.

    16. ess-dog

      Btw,

      Regardless of what you think if Melo, I just find this hilarious:

      “In a chat session, Chris Sheridan affirmed that Carmelo Anthony’s current position is that he will only sign a contract extension, upon being traded, if Denver sends him to the Knicks.”

      Read more: http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/71002/20110107/carmelo_still_committed_to_extension_with_knicks_only_if_traded/#ixzz1ANh2k4eH

      I really have never seen anything like this – a player forcing his way onto another team. If true, it’s absurd.

    17. Nick C.

      HAHAHA Ess-dog. Man as much as I love him for what he did at Syracuse he is really starting to nauseate me.

    18. ess-dog

      Nick C.: HAHAHA Ess-dog. Man as much as I love him for what he did at Syracuse he is really starting to nauseate me.  

      Even in the name of winning, it’s almost shameful to get a player that way.
      Has something like this ever happened in any team sport? I know that players with a no trade clause have given their teams a “list” of teams before – I think Garnett had a list right? – but a list of one team???
      Although I guess the Nuggs can trade him unsigned to anyone as a mercenary, just for a smaller haul.

    19. DS

      Elsewhere in that chat, someone asked Sheridan:
      “A good defensive player who can rebound and hit open jumpers is exactly what the Knicks need. Isn’t that guy Anthony Randolph?”

      Sheridan replies: “Not in a 7 1/2 man rotation.”

      Sheesh.

    20. RJ in Brooklyn

      the Haberstroh piece on ESPN underscores the point – if you remotely believe there’s some similarity between David Lee & Amare Stoudemire and your ‘advanced stats’ prove it, your stats are garbage & you don’t know what you’re looking at.

    21. RJ in Brooklyn

      @DS – Randolph is lousy defensively AND a lousy shooter…in a 15-man rotation. he more than anyone needs to be in the D-league. he desperately needs reps and to learn how to play.

    22. taggart4800

      Does anyone think Dalembert would be available at the MLE next year? Has to be worth a try if we get Melo for a washing machine and thus have the ability to sign Chandler.

    23. DS

      @29 – RJ, I disagree. I think the notion that the Knicks are giving up on AR and that he’s doing very poorly is too strong of an assumption. The case could be that D’Antoni feels the Knicks have been playing too many close games and making the playoffs is too important to let AR learn on the fly. Where is the evidence that he’s regressed from last season?? He could develop into EXACTLY what the Knicks need.

      Granted, I do wish that NBA teams used the D-League as a resource more often. But I think Randolph has shown he can dominate at that level already in the NBA summer leagues. I also don’t think he is going to learn structure in the NBDL. And he will be morbid traveling 4 hours to games on buses.

    24. RJ in Brooklyn

      @DS – I watched a lot a Warrior games and the most notable quality to Randolph’s game is the inconsistency. actually, he’s very consistent at: bad decision-making, poor shot-selection, not boxing out, bad/dumb fouls & turnovers. he has an intriguing athletic package & is very, very raw. he needs more reps and would be better served getting those reps & making those mistakes outside the glare of the NY spotlight on a team desperate to make the playoffs.

      given the Knicks dire need for frontcourt contributions, if either Randolph or Mozgov could provide a little upside while not having so strong a negative impact they’d get some minutes.

    25. JK47

      @24, 25, 26

      It’s funny, Melo’s “Knicks-or-bust” demands make me like him even more. (Full disclosure: I’m a Syracuse grad and my love of the Orange hoops team is pretty much on par with my love for NYK.)

      He’s trying to force his way onto the team and absolutely murdering the Nuggets’ leverage at the same time, which of course helps us and also helps him too. It makes me think that maybe– just maybe– he takes a “haircut” kind of contract extension so we can compete better with the D-Bags in Miami.

      True story: I met Melo, Gerry McNamara and Jim Boeheim shortly after the Orange won their championship. I still have the signed SI cover somewhere. I told Melo at the time: “Now we just need you on the Knicks.” He flashed a giant grin and nodded his head.

    26. RJ in Brooklyn

      Melo is not doing anything outside his rights under the existing CBA. he doesn’t have to sign with Denver. the Nuggets can trade him if they like. he doesn’t have to agree to sign an extension with anyone. what’s the big deal?

    27. cgreene

      @25 Let me say (under the caveat that were I a Nuggets fan I would obviously be very upset) that I really don’t think Melo has done anything wrong. Why after 7 years in the league, having earned his FA status and having taken the risk of leaving $65M guaranteed on the table when he could get into a car accident tomorrow should he not use the full force of his leverage to do what he wants to do? In fact the only reason why there is so much drama surrounding the situation is because he has refused the extension repeatedly and Denver has spun that into his playing dirty pool to get what he wants. He has taken risk here. Just so happens it’s in the favor of the Knicks. The guy wants to leave and play where he wants to play. If the $ is the number 1 issue then that will come to light at the deadline if he agrees to play for the Nets or another team that is not on the rise.

    28. DS

      @32 – But AR doesn’t need to play smart in order to dominate the NBDL. How are you going to re-enforce good habits? By threatening to keep him there until he cuts down turnovers? Do the Springfield Armor run 7 seconds or less?

      He can learn more by staying in the loop with a professional coaching staff and under tutelage of Turiaf and STAT.

    29. DS

      Again, if the NBDL were used the way it should be by NBA teams, I’d have no qualms. But it’s just not there yet.

    30. iserp

      cgreene: @25 Let me say (under the caveat that were I a Nuggets fan I would obviously be very upset) that I really don’t think Melo has done anything wrong. Why after 7 years in the league, having earned his FA status and having taken the risk of leaving $65M guaranteed on the table when he could get into a car accident tomorrow should he not use the full force of his leverage to do what he wants to do? In fact the only reason why there is so much drama surrounding the situation is because he has refused the extension repeatedly and Denver has spun that into his playing dirty pool to get what he wants. He has taken risk here. Just so happens it’s in the favor of the Knicks. The guy wants to leave and play where he wants to play. If the $ is the number 1 issue then that will come to light at the deadline if he agrees to play for the Nets or another team that is not on the rise.  

      I have to agree with you. As long as Melo fulfills his contract and plays at top level, he has the right to sign an extension wherever he wants; just as happened this summer with so many FAs. The problem is that Denver has already gone into panic mode and is trying to deal him to any team interested, even if Melo has already stated he is he is not going to sign an extension with anyone. Maybe Denver is right that Melo is bluffing about his extension, and in the end, money will matter more than the team he ends up with; but right now, the source of drama are the Nuggets, not Melo.

    31. ess-dog

      RJ in Brooklyn: Melo is not doing anything outside his rights under the existing CBA. he doesn’t have to sign with Denver. the Nuggets can trade him if they like. he doesn’t have to agree to sign an extension with anyone. what’s the big deal?  

      The whole thing is just silly is all. He can’t say any of these things out loud because that could get him fined. So “sources” come out of the woodwork. Therefore, it either looks like the Nuggets are operating with a blindfold and earplugs on or that we are fools for whatever the press decides to spin that day.
      The sucky part is that it will probably drag on until June.

    32. jon abbey

      no one ever seems to mention that Nash is a revolving door on defense, just his offensive attributes.

      also, I’ve mentioned my pet peeve before about turnovers being way overvalued as an individual statistic (they’re often not one person’s fault, they’re sometimes incorrectly attributed, and they’re not as bad as generally thought), and I just came across this quote which I think applies:

      “If you’re not making mistakes, then you’re not doing anything. I’m positive that a doer makes mistakes.– John Wooden”

      nice to go to Phoenix with the more talented team for once, hope that translates into a W.

    33. Ben R

      I agree with DS AR needs to learn to do less, play within himself. He is an incredibly talented and athletically gifted player. The problem is he tries to do too much. In the D-League he can do alot more, dominate the ball, drive into traffic, make wild passes and it will work because he is better than the competition. It will reenforce his alpha dog tendancies when frankly on this level he is not an alpha dog but a role player. Maybe one day when his shot gets better he can start doing more but in the mean time he needs to learn how to make better decisions, play defense and make simple plays. He is also practicing with the team getting and better in practice it’s not like he’s sitting at home playing xbox. On top of that I don’t think we can send him to d-league anyway beacuse he is a third year player.

      The person I’d like to see go to d-league is Mozgov, a couple weeks of him dominating would get his confidence up and he would stop making those silly nervous mistakes like fumbling the ball.

      As for Granger I would love to get him but between Gallo, Fields, and Chandler he is redundant and we would have to give up alot for him.

    34. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, Granger is good and all, but he’s not that much of an improvement over what the Knicks already have at the 3, especially not in relation to how much they would ask for him.

    35. jon abbey

      this would be a nice streak to break:

      “The Knicks have lost their last seven visits to Phoenix by an average of 15.3 points.”

    36. daJudge

      RJ @18–I meant pass out of the “post”, not “double”. I agree hardily with Jon Abbey’s comments. Lack of TO’s can mean little passing or very conservative playing. Game management QB’s usually do not throw picks.

      I do not think Melo is being unethical. He could easily just not sign the extension and leave Denver high and dry as a free agent. Hey, wait a minute. Didn’t someone just do that in Cleveland? If the rumors are true, he wants to sign in NY, so at least he’s providing Denver with a chance to obtain remuneration.

      Glad to be back on this blog. I stopped for awhile because I thought my posts weren’t really statistically based and probably were out of context. It seems the entries have expanded a bit in that sense. I do enjoy the posts.

    37. jon abbey

      just noticed we’re up to #12 in Hollinger’s mathematical rankings, that has to be a season high. unfortunately the five teams ahead of us in the East are all in the top seven currently, but we’re ahead of Utah and NO and Denver, pretty impressive.

    38. Brian Cronin

      just noticed we’re up to #12 in Hollinger’s mathematical rankings, that has to be a season high.

      They’ve been there before, but yeah, I don’t think they’ve reached past #12. Imagine the Knicks in the top ten?!?

    39. d-mar

      jon abbey: this would be a nice streak to break:“The Knicks have lost their last seven visits to Phoenix by an average of 15.3 points.”  

      I keep waiting for that letdown game, where at the end Breen or whoever is saying things like “the Knicks just didn’t show up” or “a night where they were just a step slower than the opposition” but what I love about this team is they do show up and they do compete every game. I think it starts with Felton and Amare, who lead by example and treat every game like it’s the playoffs.

    40. Z-man

      d-mar:
      I keep waiting for that letdown game, where at the end Breen or whoever is saying things like “the Knicks just didn’t show up” or “a night where they were just a step slower than the opposition” but what I love about this team is they do show up and they do compete every game.I think it starts with Felton and Amare, who lead by example and treat every game like it’s the playoffs.  

      Well, there was Cleveland…

      Still, I agree that I look forward to every game more than ever and these 3-day gaps kill me! This is an awesome team to root for.

    41. daJudge

      d-mar-I think you’re right, but I would sneak in Mr. Walsh in that equation. Also, I have been critical of our coach, but he’s gotta be doing something right motivationally. With respect to Hollinger–For the Knicks to improve, given the current line-up, the system, the coach, what is a more reasonable goal, raising OE or lowering DE?Our OE is really high and our DE, not so much. Top ten is not a reach in my view.

    42. Z-man

      AR is very athletic, but I disagree that he is all that talented. Part of B-ball talent is to be able to hit an open shot, beat your man off the dribble in either direction, see the floor and instinctively be a step ahead of your opposition. He has none of these talents, and a low b-ball IQ to boot. If he were not 6’10” he would not be called talented. In fact, the problem is that he thinks he’s more talented than he is and tries to do things he is not capable of doing.

    43. jon abbey

      even Cleveland was a OT loss on the road when they’d played a tough game the night before, not quite as bad an effort as it looks on paper.

      amazingly NY is 17-3 since mid-November against teams not named Miami or Boston, and they came damn close to beating Boston also. I agree that the consistent effort since the first West Coast road trip has been remarkable, I just hope that Felton doesn’t hit a wall at some point.

    44. Ben R

      Z-Man – Randolph is 6’10” though and for a player who is 6’10” he is very talented. His ball handling and passing ability are exceptional for a big man. Combine that with his rebounding and shot blocking skill and he is very talented. His jump shot is also not that bad it’s just alot worse than he seems to think it is. He can hit open shots and he can beat his man off the dribble the problem is after he beats his man he often gets stuck when help comes and ends up throwing up a bad shot or a desperate pass.

      His biggest problem is b-ball iq and court awareness not talent. He also has shown the ability to be modererately efficient, his 52.1% TS% is okay for a 20 year old high usage player. He just hasn’t been able to fit into our team concept but given time and coaching that should be fixable. Luckily most of his problems can be fixed with coaching and time and he is getting both of that here. (At least he should be)

    45. jaylamerique

      Ben R: Z-Man – Randolph is 6’10? though and for a player who is 6’10? he is very talented. His ball handling and passing ability are exceptional for a big man. Combine that with his rebounding and shot blocking skill and he is very talented. His jump shot is also not that bad it’s just alot worse than he seems to think it is. He can hit open shots and he can beat his man off the dribble the problem is after he beats his man he often gets stuck when help comes and ends up throwing up a bad shot or a desperate pass.His biggest problem is b-ball iq and court awareness not talent. He also has shown the ability to be modererately efficient, his 52.1% TS% is okay for a 20 year old high usage player. He just hasn’t been able to fit into our team concept but given time and coaching that should be fixable. Luckily most of his problems can be fixed with coaching and time and he is getting both of that here. (At least he should be)  

      Being able to handle the ball as a big man is an over-rated skill, especially with felton on this team. His lack of jumpshot hurts his ability to beat people off the dribble because they just back off and give him the jumpshot. I consider AR athletic rather than talented.

    46. daJudge

      Cool article in the Times re: clutch shooting. http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/identifying-the-n-b-a-s-top-clutch-players/?ref=sports. I don’t know how to do links, but I tried. Amare number three. Right on (sorry, I’m old). Check it out.

      I do not have sufficient info to evaluate AR. I would like to see him more if he’s busting it in practice. If he’s not, it’s on him. In his few appearances, I thought he was trying to hard to hit the J. Why? I don’t know. I know I’m in the minority, but the shot didn’t look so bad–sure, it didn’t drop and the selection wasn’t the best. It wasn’t terrible either. The kid never looked too happy and seemed really stressed. He actually appeared depressed to me. I’m sure we can all understand that reaction from a really young kid with Great Expectations. He was over hyped—so hyped that no one would trade him for Carmello. Remember? Unless he’s dogging it, I hope he gets a shot and has mentors that can lead him along. Certainly he has a huge upside physically. Just my view.

    47. Z-man

      Jon, yeah, but Clevelend was a truly terrible team on a 10-game bender. You have to pick up that win.

      Ben, Re Randolph, I just don’t see it. Talent to me means having an innate ability (separate from intelligence) to pick up physical skills more quickly than others. I was a big fan of AR until I saw him in preseason and early on. I am now convinced that he is a super athletic kid with far less talent than I thought he had. I see a skilled bouncer of the ball, but not a skilled ball-handler. I see a guy who can jump high and quick, not a skilled shot-blocker or rebounder. We’re probably just quibbling about semantics, but no matter how you slice it, I just see a lousy basketball player. I said the same thing about Balkman (who is the same kind of player as Randolph) and he has done nothing but sit the bench in Denver, nor are people knocking down the door to get him. It is actually humbling of me to admit this because I was so high on him after the Lee deal. I would love to be proven wrong about this guy, but I have complete confidence in D’Antoni on this one.

    48. Z-man

      @55, Shawne Williams was overhyped too, but he worked his way out of it. I think he is a good example of a guy with talent. Seriously, how did he jump into the rotation ahead of Randolph is AR is so “talented?” Because Shawne had the “talent” to immediately produce in his initial cameo appearances. AR does not.

    49. daJudge

      That’s a very fair point Z-Man. Two points back to you. (1) Shawne can really shoot and this quality is prized by Coach and this system, as it now stands. He has a very nice, if not beautiful, stroke. I say it almost every time he shoots (2) Not everyone is put together the same way mentally and Shawne has had his own problems. I’m not sure Shawne was overhyped or simply underachieved but, he too, had serious off court baggage. Based on his past, my guess would be that Shawne has been through some serious treatment and maybe some stuff clicked. All I’m saying is that I hope AR gets that chance. Rebound, play D and throw an outlet pass. Get out the way on offense. Hey, maybe they’re both good. Wouldn’t that be a trip?

    50. RJ in Brooklyn

      Randolph’s basketball IQ is incredibly low AND his psyche has been up to this point very fragile. why do you think the Warriors – a team going nowhere with playing time to spare for developing players – would give up on a 20 yr-old athletic freak? he needs to play, somewhere…period. there isn’t enough practice time in the NBA for him to be coached up. he left school too soon. given where he is in his development today, he won’t be a rotation player for a top 8 playoff team for 3 years. Z-man knows.

      @DaJudge – bear in mind a key component to D’Antoni’s system is removing the traditional post player thus opening the lane for SR & creating space for the shooters. so a big that can stroke the 15 footer is key. we’ve seen this offense when defenders can clog the lane waiting on Amar’e…it ain’t pretty.

    51. daJudge

      RJ, I think that was my point–on offense. That doesn’t address D though, right? Also, stroking the 15 foot J is OK, but also , passing out of the post is also key, like Turiaf. There is no reason why a Center who is not offensively skilled in the post can not and should not thrive in this system. I’m must be really missing something here.

    52. Z-man

      If Turiaf can get some light in D’Antoni’s system with no offensive talent whatsoever, Ar should be able to as well, except that he has so far seemed less talented offensively than Turiaf. Seriously, can AR go right at all? If you overplay him to the left, he is a dead duck.

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