Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, December 18, 2018

Post Game: Magic beat Knicks, 115-89

Potential Links

  • [cbssports.com] Ross, Vucevic lift Magic over Knicks 115-89
  • [orlandosentinel.com] Short-handed Magic roll to 115-89 road win over Knicks
  • [reuters.com] Magic blister Knicks in Bamba’s homecoming
  • [postingandtoasting.com] Magic 115, Knicks 89: Scenes from the worst game of the season
  • [elitesportsny.com] New York Knicks listless at home against the Orlando Magic (Highlights)
  • [msn.com] Knicks look putrid in every way in loss to Magic that gives David Fizdale a harsh dose of reality
  • [spin.ph] Magic hit season-high 17 three-pointers in rout of Knicks
  • [chron.com] Magic-Knicks, Box
  • [orlandosentinel.com] Fourth-quarter collapse dooms Magic in loss to Knicks
  • Full BoxScore:
    http://www.nba.com/games/20181111/ORLNYK#/boxscore

    Score by Period:

    Team 1 2 3 4 TOTAL
    Magic 30 35 22 28 115
    Knicks 10 30 20 29 89

    Four Factors

    TEAM eFG TOR ORB FTR
    ORL 0.536 0.081 0.177 0.103
    NYK 0.381 0.159 0.255 0.251

    Simple Box Score

    Name min pts fga 3pm ftm or Reb ast stl to blk pf +/-
    Iwundu, Wes 31:38 7 8 1 0 1 8 2 0 2 1 3 18
    Martin, Jarell 27:31 7 10 1 2 1 6 3 2 0 1 2 22
    Vucevic, Nikola 26:21 21 17 1 0 4 14 1 1 2 1 1 18
    Augustin, D.J. 23:42 9 7 3 0 0 2 2 3 1 0 0 17
    Fournier, Evan 19:00 12 13 2 0 0 2 4 1 0 0 2 19
    Ross, Terrence 22:24 22 12 5 1 0 1 3 0 0 2 4 18
    Simmons, Jonathon 27:49 9 9 0 3 1 2 7 0 1 2 1 18
    Bamba, Mohamed 17:39 15 11 1 4 0 8 0 0 0 2 4 12
    Grant, Jerian 28:14 9 6 3 0 0 2 8 1 1 0 2 9
    Briscoe, Isaiah 5:14 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 -7
    Birch, Khem 5:14 4 3 0 0 2 4 1 2 1 0 1 -7
    Frazier Jr., Melvin 5:14 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 -7
    Magic 240:00 115 98 17 10 9 50 31 10 9 9 21 26
    Name min pts fga 3pm ftm or Reb ast stl to blk pf +/-
    Dotson, Damyean 20:48 5 4 1 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 -19
    Vonleh, Noah 22:34 4 6 0 0 1 9 0 0 3 1 1 -16
    Robinson, Mitchell 22:13 4 3 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 9 2 -7
    Hardaway Jr., Tim 26:06 7 12 0 3 0 6 1 1 2 0 3 -18
    Ntilikina, Frank 5:45 0 3 0 0 0 1 0 0 2 1 1 -12
    Kanter, Enes 26:18 16 15 0 2 8 15 1 0 1 0 2 -20
    Hezonja, Mario 26:32 12 9 2 4 0 5 1 0 0 1 4 -3
    Mudiay, Emmanuel 17:15 3 4 0 1 0 3 0 0 2 0 1 -20
    Knox, Kevin 25:35 17 11 2 7 3 3 0 0 2 0 2 -13
    Trier, Allonzo 21:54 9 8 0 3 1 5 4 1 4 3 4 -8
    Burke, Trey 19:46 10 13 0 0 0 1 5 0 1 0 1 -1
    Baker, Ron 5:14 2 0 0 2 1 3 1 0 0 0 0 7
    Knicks 240:00 89 88 5 22 14 56 13 2 19 15 21 -26
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    132 comments on “Post Game: Magic beat Knicks, 115-89

    1. geo

      hmmmmm, normally takes until february or so before folks start checking out…

      wake me when it’s time for the draft…

    2. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      I really didn’t think they would be this bad. But I think they are all kind of dragging each other down sometimes. The current first unit plays pretty good NBA level defense a lot of the time, but they can’t score at an NBA level. Frank taking an open three is actually good offense by their srandards. Hardaway is hampered by being the first unit’s onlY real scoring threat. If he is prevented from scoring, the well is going to be pretty dry for the Knicks. The second unit can’t defend.

    3. Frank

      didn’t see the game, but obviously this was a stinker. But in general this team has been very competitive (I think I saw some stat that they had had the lead or been tied in the 4th Q of just about every game this year) even though we all acknowledged the team as constructed (and not including KP) has one of the worst talent bases in the league. What else were we expecting?

      The most disturbing aspect of the year so far is how inconsistent Ntilikina has been. But that’s been balanced by MitchRob, how much better in general THJ has looked, and Trier.

      Anyway, it’s super fun to watch Duke highlights.

    4. danvt

      ”Coach (Pat) Riley always says it’s a make or miss league, and the night where you shoot the ball like that, everything else is going to go your way,” Orlando coach Steve Clifford said”

      yup. 9 blocks for Mitch! Still, if we wanted to win, Kanter should be the starter. You can’t have THREE players on the floor that don’t look to score. That’d be making it easier on the defense, I’d say. But I don’t want to win so it’s all good. Zion or bust. He looked like a man among boys against Army.

    5. alsep73

      I really didn’t think they would be this bad.

      They haven’t been THIS bad. That was by far the worst game of the season. Our losses have been very competitive for the most part. For a group that is into analytics, we tend to fall prey to recency bias. We are not a good team, but we are also not as bad as we looked last night. And every loss is a good thing.

    6. danvt

      Can I axked a question about PHI/MIN deal? What do you think of Saric / Covington? Other than bad 2pt% they look like good players. Haven’t watched much Sixers…

      Covington, 28, the contract runs through 22 at 10+ million. Not a terrible hit for a two way player (?) How is his defense?

      Dario a huge bargain and looks like the stats are similar. Close to 4 out of ten on threes on 5+ attempts per game.

      Butler’s stats look comparable.

      Is this even a win for the Sixers on efficiency? I know it’s a win when you only have to add a 2022 second. What? Someone needs to be fired on MIN (the owner)

      Also, to me, when a big FA leaves, it’s a feel good story, because you have all that money. So when Butler comes to NYK to team with Zion, PHI will have a pile of cash for the New Johnny Bravo.

      What do ya think?

    7. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

      This is what building exclusively out of the draft is going to be like in an era when NBA teams are drafting teenagers with one year of college experience (or in Robinson’s case no experience). You are going to have a team full of players that aren’t very good yet and that are 5, 6, or 7 years away from reaching their potential.

      The beginnings of a good team are here if we keep adding via draft and you have a 5 year developmental outlook. But a better idea would be to find a couple of top tier players crazy enough to come to NY to play with these kids at this stage of the game.

      More likely is that we are going to overpay to bring someone in or we’ll add short term filler FAs to hold at least some of the cap space after we pay KP.

      This is what people said they wanted. Now we have it. Don’t worry, we’ll be good in 2023.

    8. Z-man

      I like the deal for both teams. Minny might have gotten a better deal if they waited around, but they got two solid rotation players and additional assets for a disgruntled star in a contract year. They also got him out of the conference. Covington is a strong 3-and-D player and Saric is young and played very well last year in 2000+ minutes. It’s a smart move for Philly, too. They get a big-3 level player and don’t lose anything irreplaceable.

    9. danvt

      @9 Thanks

      I guess I understand the trade demand. He came to MIN in a trade. He wasn’t signing with them.
      He new he’d be an FA. He wanted to get to his new team. I also can’t blame him for wanting his new team to have his Bird rights. That’s kind of a bad rule. Bad for MIN fans. He may not have demanded the trade if there was a level playing field.

    10. Bruno Almeida

      No, this is what building through the draft with only crap picks is going to be like. Embiid and Simmons aren’t 5 years away from being productive players, Knox and Ntilikina are.

      Building through the draft with actual good picks on the top of the lottery looks a lot more like the Sixers. The Knicks are just a team that hampered its own rebuild with terrible veterans in a misguided attempt to add talent and veteran leadership that all had to be cut or let go and caused our draft picks to be bad and used on players who are either extremely raw or have glaring issues in their games.

    11. ess-dog

      Yeah as we’ve seen, it’s hard to get top talent outside the top 3 picks in the draft (KP at 4 was a smart pick) unless you get lucky on a flier like MitchRob. Mitch, Frank, and even Mudiay are all so young though… they could all end up as decent players or better.

      It will be tough to out-tank CLE and ATL, but we have to try. An improved Timmy could really hurt though.

    12. bobneptune

      This is a completely serious question….. is there a reasonable reason the Knicks don’t use the best offensive play in the history of the NBA, namely some varient of a high pick and roll? Is Fiz stupid or is he a genius tank commander. It seems pretty binary to me…..

    13. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      Danvt, I also heard that Butler wanted a big contract from Minnesota and he wanted it this summer. He says told Thibs that and in June or July that he wanted to be traded since he didn’t have the big contract. Instead Minnesota paid Towns and Wiggins big bucks.

    14. Brian Cronin

      This is a completely serious question….. is there a reasonable reason the Knicks don’t use the best offensive play in the history of the NBA, namely some varient of a high pick and roll? Is Fiz stupid or is he a genius tank commander. It seems pretty binary to me…..

      I think he’s spent the majority of his coaching time on defense. I agree that it is a bit of a problem that the offense looks so poorly defined, but perhaps he thinks he can teach the offense easier later on and the defense side of thing is harder to get across?

    15. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      Bruno, don’t overestimate the Sixer’s drafting acumen. Remember, they had lots of picks and some of their high picks, Noel and Okafor in particular, are barely in the league now.

    16. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      The Knicks definitely do do pick and rolls, and some of them aren’t so close to the basket.

    17. Bruno Almeida

      @16

      I am not overestimating it, out of 5 top picks two turned out to be studs and 3, way too prematurely including Fultz, have not panned out. The point is that we have watched some atrociously bad basketball since 2013, just like they did, and even hitting on 40% of their top picks was enough for them to have a real core (and their other lottery pick, Saric, was a part of a trade that brought a third star), while we have only future promise and hope to show for all these years of being garbage.

      I’m not even highly rating their draft acumen, Okafor was a bad pick in a bad draft, Embiid was a good pick, Noel and Fultz went where they were expected to and Simmons was a 100% obvious pick. They did nothing special in the draft and it still allowed them to accumulate two really good players and some assets.

    18. Hubert

      I’m beginning to see a bit of Mark Jackson in Fizdale (minus the polarizing off court issues, which is nice). Simply put: he’s a player’s coach who emphasizes defense and has no idea how to get the best out of his team on offense. I really didn’t expect these guys to be operating efficiently by now, but I just don’t see anything from the coaching level that’s helping them. All I see is everyone out there doing their best iso thing. The whole thing in preseason about making players give up the ball quickly on offense was nice and everything, but what system are they running to actually make sure anyone is getting themselves in position to do something better when they receive it?

    19. swiftandabundant

      That was rough. My regularly schedule call to keep calm. This is what development looks like. Robinson is a rookie second round pick. Knox is a rookie who just got back from an injury. He hasn’t even played in 10 NBA games yet. Trier is an undrafted rookie. Frank is a second year player.

      This is what development looks like. Second game of a back to back is always tough.

      Keep calm and carry on!

    20. Hubert

      It’s funny to see serious basketball analysts blame Jayson Tatum regressing from being the best corner 3 point shooter in NBA history on Kobe Bryant. A guy who wasn’t that great of a shooter in college isn’t actually better than every shooter who ever lived? Fuck, he never should have had a conversation with Kobe.

      I had no idea what you were talking about so I googled Jayson Tatum Kobe Bryant and was pleasantly amused. Thank you, DRed.

    21. Hubert

      For a group that is into analytics, we tend to fall prey to recency bias.

      Recency bias and unrealistic expectations.

      Strato hit it on the head in @8. This is precisely what you should expect from a bunch of kids who would be sophomores in college right now (EDIT: and, as Bruno mentioned, might not have been the best prospects to begin with). Progression will not be nice and gradual year over year. It’s going to look awful for a long time.

      Of course, the people who get upset the most here are the people who were most upset with drafting such young, raw players to begin with, so I understand their frustration. I wouldn’t have drafted Frank or Knox. But having drafted them, this is what we need to expect.

    22. ProjectKnicks

      This is what development looks like. Second game of a back to back is always tough.
      Keep calm and carry on!

      This is what development without talent looks like.

      Nobody is agitated or jumping the gun in any way; it’s just a calm and fair assessment that the future does not look bright for this group of players.

    23. swiftandabundant

      @ 20 – you know, Mark Jackson without the overbearing religious stuff and free of off the court drama isn’t a bad coach for this team to have. Those early Warrior teams with him as the coach sucked too, but he instilled defense in them and helped turn them into a playoff team.

      They rightly realized they needed another coach to take them to the next level and maybe in 3 years we’ll have to do that too. But an X and O’s mastermind may not be what these young guys need right now. A coach who can connect with young players, get them in shape, and teach them defense…that’s not a bad foundation for us to start with right now.

    24. Z-man

      It’s hard running an offense without a point guard (or point player, doesn’t have to be a guard.) We have one player who knows how to pass (Burke) and that’s it. We have an assortment of “I’m gonna get mine” chuckers (TH2, Trier, Kanter) low-IQ bumblers (Hezonja, Mudiay, Knox) and “if it weren’t for my perceived value on D I wouldn’t be in the league” guys (Mitch, Vonleh, Frank, Lance, Ron) There isn’t a coach alive who can turn this group into a good offensive team.

      The closest thing we have to a 2-way glue-guy type of player right now is Dotson, and he has regressed in the last couple of games. Fiz may be a total moron as an offensive coach, but he’s not the problem here.

    25. Hubert

      @25 – you’re right, it’s just really hard to fire the player’s coach who built the foundation and replace him with an x and o mastermind. The Warriors were actually lucky Jackson gave them a good excuse. Most teams are unwilling to replace the guy who develops the players with the guy needed to take them over the top, even though that strategy is proven to be better.

    26. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

      @11

      You keep saying that and maybe some day it will be rigtht.

      The 76ers are in year 6 of their rebuild. The only reason they are this close is because they had so many highly drafted players out for a seaon or two with injuries it delayed the slow progress a team would normally expect after it bottoms out. Even now, all these years into it, they are NOT good enough to be considered a serious contender. What they did is manage their assets well enough to bring in an actual star player to get them in the conversation. And even after Butler they still aren’t good enough. It’s going to take cap space to add free agents to make them a serious contender.

      We should be thankful in some perverse way that KP got hurt and missed most of TWO seasons. That allowed us to get a better pick than our talent warranted last year and will again this year. It’s giving us a leg up in the rebuild or we’d be even further away.

      Again, don’t worry. 2023 is not that far away. Hell, maybe Durant is crazy enough to play with these kids and get old just in time for them to blossom.

    27. ProjectKnicks

      Fiz may be a total moron as an offensive coach, but he’s not the problem here.

      The bulk of the problem is the lack of talent across the entire roster, no doubt. However, it’s legitimate to ponder whether a ‘moron as an offensive coach’ might atrophy rather than develop a player like Ntilikina.

    28. Bruno Almeida

      I’m really not getting into this whole discussion again, I just wanted to point out that once again you make bad generalizations about stuff you have decided is wrong. The Kings and Suns have been building through the draft and suck ass still, the Mavericks, Pistons and Hornets tried to build thought smart trades and free agent signings and have sucked badly, the Thunder built what could have been a championship team if wonderboy Presti didn’t screw it up through the draft, the Raptors have built a probable contender through smart moves and signings, Cleveland won a title with a first overall pick, a second first overall pick deciding to return to the team and another first overall pick traded for Love.

      You’re once again using this opportunity to reaffirm the same stuff you always argue about when there’s no evidence that the path you suggest the Knicks should take is even better in the first place.

    29. Hubert

      However, it’s legitimate to ponder whether a ‘moron as an offensive coach’ might atrophy rather than develop a player like Ntilikina.

      Yes, and as BobNeptune highlighted, we never run pick and roll with this guy. We’ve got him and Mitch starting the game. Mitch has elite potential as a roll man. Frank makes good passes (even though he never attacks). These guys should be starting every single possession with a pick and roll. It’s the perfect play to force Frank to be assertive and make decisions. With enough reps, they might become good at it. Instead Frank just walks up the court and hands it to Timmy or Trier or whoever’s turn it is to hero. And we sit here going “Frank has no talent, where’s the progression”.

    30. djphan

      ppl keep blaming the coaches but the utter lack of young talent after all those down years is pretty staggering…

      besides the cavs and possibly phoenix… which team in the league wouldn’t you trade the entire roster for?

    31. Z-man

      @31 more apologist BS for Frank. I’ll re-post what I ended the last thread with, in response to Silky who thought it was inexcusable that Frank played only 5 minutes, even though in his own words, he was brutal:

      The issue isn’t 5 minutes of terrible basketball, it’s 2,070 minutes of terrible basketball. Frank is one of the worst offensive players in the league. Despite all the bullshit (not that it wasn’t true, but that it didn’t matter) about how hard he worked on his game during the offseason and having a full training camp, he has now regressed to identical numbers as last year. He has not improved in a single aspect of the game, not one iota. And the funny thing is (not really funny, but whatever) that his DBPM and DRtg both suggest that he is grossly overrated on defense as well.

      Sure, Trey Burke has been awful, but he has had at least some success as an NBA PG. As bad as he’s been (predictably) Mudiay has looked better than Frank, he’s just as dumb as a post. Frank has been ever so slightly better than Ron Baker.

      But yeah, don’t hold him accountable. Let him keep playing no matter how bad he plays. That’s a great message to send to the young guys.

    32. Hubert

      There is no “utter lack of talent” here. It’s just all young, raw talent. Frank, Dotson, Mitchell, Trier, and Knox are not untalented basketball players.

      Yes, suboptimal prospects are what you get when you win too many meaningless basketball games in a misguided effort to win 35 games. But it’s what we’ve got and it’s pretty stupid to write all of them off this quickly and declare them to be completely devoid of talent.

    33. Hubert

      Z-Man, we get it, you want to write Frank off before he’s legally allowed to buy a glass of wine. I’m not one of those guys who is going to beg management to properly rebuild and then get mad when the prospects they bring in aren’t developed within 1.25 seasons.

    34. Z-man

      To elaborate further, it’s simply not true that we “never run pick and roll with this guy.” No matter how hard it is for some around here to accept, the truth is that Frank is terrible at running the high PnR because he neither has the ball-handling skills, the passing skills, or the shooting skills that are required to make the PnR work consistently. Sure, he’ll execute it successfully once in a while, or maybe even multiple times in the same game, but there is absolutely no evidence for any optimism that he will become even slightly good at it on a consistent basis.

    35. thenoblefacehumper

      The Sixers won 52 games last year, just added Jimmy Butler to that team, and will have around $15m AAV to play with this offseason (keeping Butler, McConnell, and Johnson’s cap holds).

      Strat thinks they’re a failure because they never signed Courtney Lee.

    36. Z-man

      Hubert, yes, I am writing him off as a PG. I still hold out hope that he can develop into a legit NBA rotation player, but not as a PG or lead guard. Putting the ball in his hands basically wastes 5-10 seconds off of the 24 second clock for what will almost surely result in a lower percentage shot than if any other PG in the league ran the same play, PnR or otherwise.

      At the first opportunity, I would call up a young G-League PG and Frank him down until he dominates. Any legit NBA PG should be putting up 20 and 8 in 36 mpg down there. I’m honestly not sure if he would be able to do it. Are you?

    37. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @33

      I don’t even like Frank that much, and I agree that he’s overrated on defense (though still a net positive on that end), but with a player like him who looks like a deer in headlights most of the time, you need to give him a long leash. One reason he’s so timid now is because under Hornacek and in France you got pulled if you made one mistake as a young player. He needs to learn how to stop thinking and play through slumps, and benching him is not going to help that. As far as “accountability” goes, we trot out Kanter for 20-30 minutes per game when he manages somehow to be a net negative despite putting up 20/10 because he’s the worst interior defender I’ve ever fucking seen (and blames his teammates when the defense breaks down because of his inability to defend). And Tim Hardaway chucks to his heart’s content while playing absolutely zero D (and that is somehow an improvement from his earlier stint in NY.)

      I was for drafting Frank, and that was a mistake, and I don’t think he’s showing much of anything at all at this point. But you should play him and simply hope he develops rather than undermining his confidence (deservedly or undeservedly so) by benching him. The worst thing that can happen by playing him 30 minutes a night is that he doesn’t develop and we lose more games, which is absolutely what we need right now on a roster that is starved of projectible talent.

    38. Bruno Almeida

      Emmanuel Mudiay played 17 minutes yesterday and he has 4000+ minutes in the NBA showing he’s not on this level. What’s the message that sends to the young players?

      I was ok with benching Frank in the first after he started incredibly bad, but if the alternative is goddamn Mudiay there’s not much wrong that can go with simply putting Frank back in the 2nd. He sucks and is showing no signs of development but there’s a least some rationale behind thinking he will be a solid rotation player someday. There’s no world in which Mudiay is a solid rotation player in the NBA.

    39. Z-man

      Silky, that’s a measured response, and I can relate to most of what you said. I just think that having him play only 5 minutes on the tail end of a back-to-back is no big deal and not a reason for criticizing the coach. If anything, Fizdale has been hugely deferential to Frank. He is the only player to have started all 14 games and has played over 30 minutes in 7 of those games, and under 20 minutes only 3 times. Part of player development is getting benched when you play badly. On that note, I don’t understand why you brought up Kanter, who was relegated to the second unit because of his terrible D, and who is at least putting up solid numbers on offense and on the boards.

      I also disagree that the reason he’s so timid has anything to do with how he has been coached. The reason he’s so timid is because he’s timid. Hornacek played him 1700 minutes in 78 games last year despite the fact that he consistently played to a negative WS48 the entire year. I don’t get how it possibly could be argued that he held Frank back in any way.

      I don’t care how young Frank is. This is the fucking NBA and he’s getting paid over $4 million bucks this year. If anything, he should be told to play better or risk getting benched or sent down. If he can’t handle that and respond like a confident pro, he’ll never be a good player anyway.

    40. ProjectKnicks

      I was ok with benching Frank in the first after he started incredibly bad, but if the alternative is goddamn Mudiay there’s not much wrong that can go with simply putting Frank back in the 2nd. He sucks and is showing no signs of development but there’s a least some rationale behind thinking he will be a solid rotation player someday. There’s no world in which Mudiay is a solid rotation player in the NBA.

      LOL…such is the Knicks’ sorry state! The ‘starter’ is bad but the alternatives are worse…

    41. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @41

      All fair; I at the very least overstated my case by calling Frank’s benching “inexcusable”. I was mad, because that game was absolutely horrible to watch. But I still think he should be getting 30 a night, irrespective of performance, and I just don’t want to see this become a pattern from Fiz even if he shows literally nothing over the course of 82 games (which is a distinct possibility.)

    42. JK47

      I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again: Frank as PG is a square peg in a round hole. He has a fucking terrible handle and lacks explosiveness. It’s like taking your fat power hitting catcher and playing him in center field because you think maybe he’ll get good at tracking fly balls. He just does not have the tools, and it’s a waste of time pretending that he’s going to somehow acquire them.

      He’s really not very good at much of anything except defending pick and rolls. He really does excel at that. But his eFG% is the same as it was last year, his 3PT% is worse, his PER is identical, his WS48 is identical… Whatever they’re doing with him is not working. You have to squint your eyes pretty hard at Frank to see a good NBA prospect.

    43. Z-man

      @40 I hear you but one (not you necessarily) can’t say that and then say stuff like “PG is the hardest position and it takes years to develop, be patient with player X but not Player Y.” So far, Mudiay is playing to career highs in OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP, WS48 and PER. I hate his game and think he’s a low-IQ player, but unlike you, I don’t see any reason to favor either him or Frank. Both should be looking over their shoulder at all times, either at each other or at the next PG to be brought in to replace them. Mudiay played 17 whole minutes and was then benched in favor of Burke and Ron.

      If folks here favor Frank over Mudiay for irrational reasons, that’s fine, just admit to it. And again, I’m only talking about as a PG. Although I guess that Trier’s development has made moving Frank to the 2 more problematic. The larger point is that there’s no clearly right answer here, and it’s pure favoritism to criticize Fizdale for the way he’s managing Mudiay’s or Frank’s minutes.

    44. Ben R

      Everyone needs to calm down a bit. We played a terrible game which in reality was really just an abysmal first quarter and then merely bad after that. Even after last nights game, we have an expected w-l of 5-9. That is a pace to win just under 30 games. That is actually higher than many on this site predicted yet everyone is in a panic. This is what a bad basketball team looks like. This is what the youngest team in the NBA looks like. We are playing three rookies and two 2nd year players in our rotation.

      Frank struggled, he will have good games and bad ones. I do not see where people think his defense is overrated it is really good, but his offense is bad. It seems he is on a bit of a three-point slump and that is just obliterating what little offensive potential he has, it will pass and he will look better.

      I would love to see us move Knox to the starting lineup and move Vonleh to the bench. Another willing shooter starting would help and he is one of the players we want to see get minutes. Plus I think it would open up space for pick and rolls with Robinson. I would also play Vonleh over Kanter with the 2nd unit. When Kanter comes in our defense is noticeably worse. He has lead the team with an over -20 +/- two games in a row and has the worst +/- on the team.

      On top of that I might try and get Baker in occasionally since he is the best defensive player on the team and since our offense is terrible anyway we might as well double down on defense.

    45. wetbandit

      Frank is a good sophomore all-around defender, hard stop. I don’t see any facet of that side of the ball he is lacking in, relative to his age and experience. He has the real, very real, potential for being an elite defender.
      This, by itself, is good enough reason for him to start for a tanking team, so he can develop the necessary 3 seasons before we can even gauge his progression.
      Other things- offensively, he has a confidence problem. This is purely eye-test. When he is forced to take the shot or dribble, or he hit his last shot, he often looks very good.
      And based on the way the offense looks and what I’ve heard from just about everyone, Fizdale has focused almost exclusively on defense. So all this talk of no visible PNR/PNP/ATO plays is concerning, but may not be Frank’s fault. He seems willing to drive and dish, shoot, float, post, or dribble back as necessary. I just think he needs more direction on offense.

    46. thenoblefacehumper

      I was against drafting Frank for all of the reasons that are now manifesting, but I also think it would be pointless to demote him in any shape, way, or form.

      We are not blocking anyone worthwhile. Emmanuel Mudiay is who we thought he was. Trey Burke is 26 years old and quickly turning into a pumpkin. If for some reason we want to give those guys a lot of minutes, the minutes are still there anyway.

      If the BPA when we’re drafting is a point guard, we should take him. That should be Frank’s penalty for not being remotely productive to this point in his career. Anything else seems pointlessly punitive and stupid.

    47. Z-man

      I do not see where people think his defense is overrated it is really good

      By what defensive metric is Frank a really good defender?

    48. Z-man

      “Anything else seems pointlessly punitive and stupid.”

      I think doghouses are stupid See: D’Antoni

      I don’t think holding young players accountable and making them earn their minutes is pointless, punitive, or stupid.

    49. MSA

      I was ok with benching Frank in the first after he started incredibly bad, but if the alternative is goddamn Mudiay there’s not much wrong that can go with simply putting Frank back in the 2nd.

      The sad thing about this, is that even Mundiay seems to be playing better than Frank on defense too.

      Every single metric available gives the edge to Mundiay this season. DBPM, DRB%, STL%, BLK%, DFG%, Deflections, Loose Ball Recovery, Contested shots (all per 36).

      I know, sample size.

      Play Frank as much as he needs, but keep checking other options because the kid doesn’t seem to be figuring out so far.

    50. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, it was just one game. Let’s see how Fizdale handles the rotation from now on. I guess I’m just overall annoyed that every shit team out there seems to have real prospects and we’re stuck discussing whether Frank or Mudiay should get more minutes and whether Kevin Knox has any verifiable NBA skills other than having the confidence to shoot every single time he touches the ball. At least we have Mitch.

    51. Hubert

      I was against drafting Frank for all of the reasons that are now manifesting,

      My reason for not wanting him is that I knew we wouldn’t be the kind of organization capable of developing him. We’re the kind of organization that trades for Emmanuel Mudiay to play his position halfway through his rookie year, spends his first offseason trying to change his position, runs an offense that be best be described as “take turns running ISO”, and benches him for an entire game when he has 5 awful minutes.

      There is a lot to like about the kid. I wouldn’t be surprised if it all comes together when he’s 23 years old. I would be surprised if he’s on the Knicks when it does.

    52. Z-man

      @55

      Yup. It’s everyone’s fault but Frank’s. What a shame that we’re not making developing Frank the prime directive of the team.

    53. JK47

      I’m against Frank playing point guard because it’s only going to shatter his confidence further when he inevitably fails. Tell him to stand in the corner and shoot open 3’s, maybe he’ll be good at that. Develop him as a low-usage defense-oriented 3-and-D wing, and have him focus on that. It’s as plain as day that he doesn’t have the skill set or mentality to play point guard, so developing him in that way seems 100% destined to fail.

      3-and-D wing, that’s his thing.

    54. thenoblefacehumper

      My reason for not wanting him is that I knew we wouldn’t be the kind of organization capable of developing him. We’re the kind of organization that trades for Emmanuel Mudiay to play his position halfway through his rookie year, spends his first offseason trying to change his position, runs an offense that be best be described as “take turns running ISO”, and benches him for an entire game when he has 5 awful minutes.

      In case my post didn’t make it clear I was, and continue to be, against all of these things. I still just don’t find Frank to be a particularly intriguing player, but he’s here now and should be given every chance to succeed.

      I don’t think holding young players accountable and making them earn their minutes is pointless, punitive, or stupid.

      Sure, but implementing this philosophy to its most extreme logical conclusion would’ve stunted the development of a lot of players who went on to have good careers.

      To be clear, I find Frank’s weaknesses to be more troubling than I normally do for players age 19-20. I don’t feel that he’s demonstrated enough things that he could even conceivably be good at one day. It would still be extremely stupid to basically pull the plug on him in a season(s) in which we have nothing to lose (except games, which is a good thing).

    55. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      besides the cavs and possibly phoenix… which team in the league wouldn’t you trade the entire roster for?

      That’s a question worth debating.

    56. BigBlueAL

      I read a comment the other day that Fiz was asked a question about playing faster and the lack of assists and he mentioned they don’t have the personnel right now. If you watch the offense they constantly run pick and rolls, dribble hand-offs and run guys like TH and now Knox off screens. When Kanter is in they post him alot. The problem is the only player on the team who can run a pick and roll to set up other players is Burke. All the other guards run it to set up their own shot. This team would look alot better right now with a decent PG which is why despite his defensive flaws it’s stupid to have Burke benched because he’s the only PG on this roster capable of somewhat running an offense to get other guys involved.

    57. Hubert

      Let’s see how Fizdale handles the rotation from now on.

      I’d like to see:

      1 Frank
      2 Hardaway
      3 Dotson
      4 Knox
      5 Robinson

      Trier as 6th man.

      For better or worse, that is our young core (or just “core” in Hardaway’s case). Play them over and over and put them in the best position to succeed.

      Burke, Kanter, and Thomas or Hezonja should round out the 9 man rotation. Ron Baker as 10th man/energy sub. And Emmanuel Mudiay should be a cheerleader unless someone gets injured.

      EDIT: after reading Big Blue Al’s post (@60), I concede it may be better for the 4 other players in the lineup to have Burke as the starting PG, but I’d still play Frank at least 20 minutes a game at the 1.

    58. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Frank is a slight net positive on DPIPM/DRAPM and a catastrophic negative on OPIPM/ORAPM.

      His defense is overrated because he is an absolutely horrible rebounder and doesn’t get as many steals as he probably should (1.7 per 36, which is fine, but defensively elite wings post 2-3 while getting far more drbs). He knows how to move, and has good I on that side of the ball, but he’s not that great of a defender as of yet. He does have all the tools though. Usually that’s an platitude but in Frank’s case it really applies.i think he should be getting 20 MPG at point and 10 at SF

    59. bobneptune

      It’s hard running an offense without a point guard (or point player, doesn’t have to be a guard.) We have one player who knows how to pass (Burke) and that’s it. We have an assortment of “I’m gonna get mine” chuckers (TH2, Trier, Kanter) low-IQ bumblers (Hezonja, Mudiay, Knox) and “if it weren’t for my perceived value on D I wouldn’t be in the league” guys (Mitch, Vonleh, Frank, Lance, Ron) There isn’t a coach alive who can turn this group into a good offensive team.

      I actually enjoy reading Z’s troll posts but sometimes you really do need to sprinkle a few facts and logic to have them escape from the Twilight Zone:

      Kanter while being a limited player is hardly a “chucker”. If you want to bastardize the definition of “chucker” he is one of the more efficient offensive players in this league. His offense is never an issue. His problem is he is likely the absolute worst defensive rotation player in this league. Period.

      However he is a huge upgrade over Me7o who is a much high volume/ less efficient (real) chucker with a much higher and longer salary. Also part of the Me7o deal was M. Robinson:

      Mitch (if it weren’t for my perceived value on D I wouldn’t be in the league) Robinson according to you ” merely leads ALL NBA ROOKIES IN WS/48…. but he shouldn’t be in the league!!! YIKES!!!

      Trier has a 60.2% TS on 20% usage…. can we get a few more undrafted rookies please. Trier’s WS/48 > Luka, M. Bridges, M Bagley, C. Sexton, Tre Young etc……

      Vonleh has played at an above average NBA level this season (WS/48 =.122) averaging 12 and 13.4/36 on low to moderate usage. WTF does one want for league minimum

      I could go on and on…….

    60. ProjectKnicks

      Uncle Rick didn’t develop his game until he was 41. Nobody ever let him play more than 3 minutes per game. Everyone said he sucked. And he did. But what if he had been given 30 minutes per game? Perhaps the process would have been 10 times faster. He died at 43, when an alligator attacked him in Pasco County, Louisiana. Hope he is happy ballin’ in heaven, where there is no shot clock and nobody ever misses a meal.

    61. bobneptune

      I read a comment the other day that Fiz was asked a question about playing faster and the lack of assists and he mentioned they don’t have the personnel right now. If you watch the offense they constantly run pick and rolls, dribble hand-offs and run guys like TH and now Knox off screens. When Kanter is in they post him alot. The problem is the only player on the team who can run a pick and roll to set up other players is Burke.

      I agree with a lot of his except the jist of the bolded. While it is correct Frank is poor at orchestrating the PNR and none of out bigs are particularly at setting good screens, this what coaching is supposed to be about.

      This is developmental year where wins are supposed to be unimportant. Run the balls off the PNR and coach it up until they get more proficient. Clyde screams ever game “They are going to much East and West!” It isn’t rocket science.

      The only way to get to Carnigie Hall is through directed practice.

    62. Hubert

      Yikes, I forgot about Vonleh. I would definitely put him in the rotation but I don’t like him at the 4 next to Mitchell or Kanter. Those lineups evoke Mike Woodson starting Kenyon Martin next to Tyson Chandler.

      If we can’t get a combination of expiring contracts and 2nd round picks for Kanter, I’d just as well release him and let Vonleh back up Mitchell.

    63. Hubert

      I read a comment the other day that Fiz was asked a question about playing faster and the lack of assists and he mentioned they don’t have the personnel right now. If you watch the offense they constantly run pick and rolls, dribble hand-offs and run guys like TH and now Knox off screens. When Kanter is in they post him alot. The problem is the only player on the team who can run a pick and roll to set up other players is Burke.

      I agree with a lot of it, too, but I think it ignores the spacing issues Fiz creates with his defensive lineups. It’s not just that the point guards can’t make the passes. It’s that there are consistently 2 players on the court who can be sagged off of to clog the lanes. We started the year with it being Thomas and Kanter, now it’s primarily Vonleh and Mitch. And when you’re already a PG who teams know is unlikely to shoot (like Frank), this is all a recipe for disaster.

      How about Modern NBA Offense #1? Use Knox or Hezonja at the 4 to spread the floor for a point guard (Burke or Frank) to run a pick and roll with Mitchell Robinson as the dive man and let everything run from there.

    64. BigBlueAL

      I would like to see Trier be more of a facilitator because he is by far the best guard at penetrating and during Summer League he had games where he was passing like a PG. Trier seems to have the skill set to be able to get his points but also throw in a few assists per game too.

    65. BigBlueAL

      I’m all for Knox starting at the 4, that seemed to be the plan during preseason. Vonleh has shown a decent shot from 3pt range but he seems hesitant to shoot it alot.

    66. bobneptune

      Whoops I got banned from r/rockets

      Would you be kind enough to cross post the nugget that did the evil deed :-)

    67. Hubert

      Frank is allergic to driving and I’d still run him out there. Trier as lead guard from time to time makes more sense to me than Mudiay.

    68. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I think Vonleh is a future starter for our team. I like his mobility on defense and ability to rebound, and his presence as a starter should put KP to play center full time. I like Mitchell Robinson as much as the next guy, but I’d bring him off the bench as long as he’s team controlled and when Vonleh becomes too expensive is when I’d promote him to the starting line up. I think, if the opportunity arises, the Knicks shouldn’t hesitate to trade guys like TH2 and Kevin Knox for a star level producer (or even for draft capital). Those two will likely always be high FGA types, and I’d rather our starting line up have a player or two that keeps their FGA under 12 because they’re busy fighting over screens and boxing out for 32 minutes a night.

      I’m still giving Frank Ntilikina time, but my faith in him is waning. I see him in the Prigioni/Kidd/Billups shooting guard role long term, but he would need to first be a reliable shooter and in an offense that is P&R heavy in order for that role to exist. He’s already good at making the extra pass and playing good defense, but we need to see him develop into a smart and useful offensive player. My dream for him is a cross between Andre Roberson and Pablo Prigioni, but if that’s who he is to be long term, we’d absolutely need to get a dynamic point guard next to him, and I don’t know if that player is available.

      Kanter doesn’t have a future as a New York Knick so we should just release him and let him go help out the Nets.

    69. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I don’t think you can play Knox or Hezonja at the four for anything other than a few minutes a game. Those two are terrible defenders and they aren’t exactly Steve Novak, so it wouldn’t be worth the headache.

    70. Z-man

      Rebuttal to bob:
      My comment was in the context of our team having a terrible offense that has very little to do with coaching and a lot to do with the fact that we don’t have a point guard capable of running an offense. You never bothered to respond to that general point. But I’ll try clarifying what I meant, then maybe you can consider whether my point about our offense is valid.

      Kanter: by “chucker” I mean that once he gets the ball, he’s looking to shoot, and only passes if absolutely necessary no matter how open other guys are. Are you seriously going to dispute that? His assist rate is lower than Hardaway’s, need I say more?

      Mitch: other than dunking, what offensive skill does he have? He has a usage% of 9.8!!! That’s lower than any USG% ever posted by Tyson Chandler! Can you name a single player in the NBA that does what he does on offense but is not at least very good on defense? If he couldn’t block shots and defend the perimeter like he does, would he be in the NBA?

      Trier: If he isn’t a chucker, I don’t know who is. His AST% is dwarfed by Kanter and Hardaway. Only 20% of his baskets are assisted.

      Vonleh: his OBPM is -1.3 (terrible). His DBPM is 2.6 (very good.) He is on a minimum salary as it is. Would he be in the NBA without his D?

      As to facts, it is a fact that we have the lowest rate of assisted baskets in the league. The reason? Well, in your world, it’s because we’re not running the high pick and roll with Frank and Mitch (coach’s fault.) In my world it’s because we have only one player who knows how to run an offense, and he’s being benched to accommodate PG minutes for Ntilikina and Mudiay. I don’t care since we’re tanking, but this is not rocket science…so long as Frank and Mudiay are initiating the offense, our offense will be bad no matter what the coach does.

    71. Hubert

      I don’t think you can play Knox or Hezonja at the four for anything other than a few minutes a game. Those two are terrible defenders and they aren’t exactly Steve Novak, so it wouldn’t be worth the headache.

      You’re right, but this is still “I need to win games now” thinking. Who cares if our defense is bad this year because our stretch 4 can’t defend? Next year we’ll have Porzingis playing that position. I think it’s more important in the long run to let our young players perform with optimal spacing than it is to put in an extra nonshooting defensive player.

    72. Frank

      I think he’s spent the majority of his coaching time on defense. I agree that it is a bit of a problem that the offense looks so poorly defined, but perhaps he thinks he can teach the offense easier later on and the defense side of thing is harder to get across?

      I read a comment the other day that Fiz was asked a question about playing faster and the lack of assists and he mentioned they don’t have the personnel right now.

      Yikes, I forgot about Vonleh. I would definitely put him in the rotation but I don’t like him at the 4 next to Mitchell or Kanter. Those lineups evoke Mike Woodson starting Kenyon Martin next to Tyson Chandler.

      Three different quotes abovefrom this thread that have me thinking that Fizdale is building the offense he wants to run eventually, just not necessarily with this personnel. I haven’t been able to watch a lot of the games so far, but Vonleh has had a pretty sizable # of possessions in which he finds himself behind the 3 point line with the ball in the corner or below-the-break. He doesn’t shoot a lot of them and when he does, he misses a very large portion of the time. You know who might be able to shoot those at a high percentage? (rhymes with “smisgraps” and “morbingus”).

      Re: Frank at PG – the value of Frank at PG is that he really IS a good defender at the point of attack. He has basically swallowed up and spit out Trae Young in both games this year (Trae shot 6/19 and 5/14 in those 2 games and 2/12 from 3P range, also barely got to the line). Kyle Lowry only managed to get 6 shots off in 27 minutes (he averages 13 shots per 36). Putting Frank at the point not only gives you a very good defender at the point of attack but allows you to play bigger/more versatile defenders on the wing. Frank just needs to be a wash on the offensive end to be a really valuable player.

      I’ve been as optimistic on Frank as anyone, but it defintiely does not look great on offense so far. I still…

    73. Frank

      btw good luck to future offenses trying to score inside on MitchRob and Porzingis.

      Frank at PG, Dotson playing the 3, MitchRob and KP — that is pretty nice from a defnesive perspective. Change out Dotson for Kevin Durant and maybe you have something?

    74. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I hear that, but I like the 23 year old Noah Vonleh as our starter at power forward for the next 3-5 seasons. I think we should be planning to set this team up for the way we’re going to play when KP is back in the fold. Vonleh is a defender switchable 3-5 I think, he’s a good rebounder, and he’s efficient enough as a scorer that you can leave him out there through most situations. Right now he’s not a good fit with whoever the starting 1 and 5 will be, but those guys won’t be the starters long term. Vonleh does a lot of the things that don’t show up in a box score but allow you to win games because they directly effect one of the four factors. He sets good screens which leads to better scoring efficiency on a play-by-play basis. He boxes out which helps us rebound. He plays strong defense and is one of our better communicators defensively. I think that stuff matters more than spacing, and if he sticks around for some seasons who’s to say he won’t develop into a reliable enough three point shooter? I’d rather spend the developmental minutes on the guy whose a market inefficiency (guys who do what Noah Vonleh does haven’t gotten paid yet) rather than hope Hezonja and Knox develop into guys we’d eventually have to overpay to keep.

      I’m really just in favor of trading all the high usage guys with no defensive potential. I understand your point about putting players in the types of line ups that would help them grow, but I don’t see Frank Ntilikina as a P&R style point guard, I see him as an extension-of-the-coach type two way shooting guard, and I don’t think consistently putting him in high ball screens will make him a better player.

    75. Hubert

      Frank at PG, Dotson playing the 3, MitchRob and KP — that is pretty nice from a defnesive perspective. Change out Dotson for Kevin Durant and maybe you have something?

      Frank, Durant, Porzingis, and MRob has been the defensive core of my dreams. Frank and MRob will still be underdeveloped next year, though. And it will tougher to tolerate their deficiencies if Durant is here.

      Even if we strike out on Durant and don’t land Zion, there’s a lot of guys at the top of the draft (Barrett, Reddish, Little) who seem like they would fit in well defensively with Frank, KP, MRob.

      This is why you need to be patient with Frank and try to put him in positions to succeed. The potential is extraordinary.

    76. Donnie Walsh

      (and their other lottery pick, Saric, was a part of a trade that brought a third star)

      Hey, that was our lottery pick! (Stay Me7o)

    77. thenamestsam

      Seems like just days ago that everyone was talking about how great this team was to watch and how Fiz was the coach of our dreams (for those keeping score at home, it was just days ago).

    78. Z-man

      Fiz is doing just fine. He’s the perfect coach for now, glib with the media, good rapport with young players. This team would suck no matter who coached them, so all you need for now is a guy (or gal) who talks the talk. Kind of like Brett Brown with the Sixers. He was great when they were tanking, but now that they’re good, the jury is out. Same with Fiz, if we get good, then you can worry about his X’s and O’s.

    79. kevin5318

      I think Fiz is fine for a developing team still. Wether he can lead the team deep into the playoffs(given that we have the talent) is yet to be seen.

    80. Donnie Walsh

      So is Jamal Murray, in case anyone forgot

      I have always felt cosmically interested in the careers of Saric, Murray, Hayward, Thomas, Noah, and Poeltl.

    81. Donnie Walsh

      Even now, all these years into it, they are NOT good enough to be considered a serious contender.

      I mean, I get that there are no serious contenders this year outside of Golden State (just as there weren’t any last year or the year before), but if you expand the definition of contender to “potential conference finalist”, the Sixers are there already and only due to get better.

    82. Hubert

      I have always felt cosmically interested in the careers of Saric, Murray, Hayward, Thomas, Noah, and Poeltl.

      Don’t forget LaMarcus Aldridge.

      What’s the average success rate for an NBA draft pick? Whatever it is, it’s like three times higher if he’s selected with one our picks. Even the late lottery picks like Hayward turn out to be home runs. Royce White is the only guy I can think of who was taken with one of our picks that bombed.

    83. thenoblefacehumper

      The good thing about a Courtney Lee trade to the Sixers is it’s pretty much impossible to work one out in which we don’t get at least something kinda interesting back. We could do a straight swap for Wilson Chandler’s expiring (which I would still do) but I think they want Chandler in their rotation.

    84. Will the Thrill

      Frank looks terrible and has shown nothing new this year, and it’s sad that I still have more faith in him becoming a productive NBA player than 19 year old Kevin Knox.

    85. thenoblefacehumper

      *whispers* Dennis “haha you must love Derrick Rose” Smith Jr. has his TS% up to .538 and is shooting 41% from 3 ¯\_(?)_/¯

    86. Brian Cronin

      Courtney Lee for Brandon Knight straight up also works.

      Isn’t Knight’s contract the same length as Lee’s?

    87. MSA

      Kanter: by “chucker” I mean that once he gets the ball, he’s looking to shoot, and only passes if absolutely necessary no matter how open other guys are. Are you seriously going to dispute that? His assist rate is lower than Hardaway’s, need I say more?

      Kanter is at his career high .14 ast% and is averaging 3.9 assists per 48. An average C only has 1.7.

      He’s probably not a keeper due his salary and non-existent defense, but I don’t think we can really complain about his O this season.

    88. ess-dog

      I’ve been a big Frank supporter from the beginning, but I’m losing faith. I agree with JK that we should stick him in there as a 3 and D guy in a mostly offensive line up and let him sink or swim. Maybe a Burke/Mudiay, TH2, Frank, Vonleh, MitchRob lineup for now. Knox can get plenty of minutes off the bench.

    89. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      One person that Frank kind of reminds me of and who hasn’t been mentioned here, is Dante Exum. I don’t mean they are like each other stylistically (I’ve hardly ever seen Exum play), but they are both point guards who were drafted very young from a foreign league and are or were known for having an un-assertive style of play. Going by his advanced stats, Exum had a bad first year, didn’t play at all his second year (I think due to injury), was bad his third year also, but was decent his fourth year and now it’s his fifth year. Now he is the backup point guard on a very good team. So if Frank had Exum’s advanced stats in his fourth year, and was also a great defender and a tall player for his position, that would be a valuable player. But we may have to wait two years to get that. I am not sure most Knick fans are willing to do that; but I am certainly willing to wait at least another season.

    90. Z-man

      @98 I guess I need to explain again that the comment wasn’t intended to criticize Kanter, it was to explain why the Knicks are dead last in assists per FGM. They don’t have a single player who knows how to run an efficient offense, least of all Kanter.

      And Kanter’s ast% is skewed by one game where he had 7. In his other 13 games, he’s had 3 twice and 2 or less 11 times. He also averages 2.9 assists vs. 3.2 TOs per 36, which is a career best AST/TO ratio. His career ast% is 6.0. He’s had a long track record as a terrible passer.

      But that’s not his role, so it’s a moot point in my argument, other than saying that he will never, ever be part of the solution to generating a more fluid, ball-sharing offense.

    91. Z-man

      @100 so you’re saying that if we’re patient, by Frank’s 5th year, he’ll be rocking a BPM of -2.7 in 16mpg?

      sigh..

    92. djphan

      i was pounding the table with the exum/frank comps before the draft… but frank sadly isn’t even like exum as of yet…. exum’s 2p fg% was always above .400 and it’s been above .500 even with all the injuries….

      he can’t shoot 3’s but he’s another example of a guy who’s not a great shooter but he provides value because he can get to the cup and finish… falling in love with a nice shooting stroke is a good way to draft busts…. and it’s the same reason why knox was and is overrated…

      i have no doubt that if frank can get his 2p fg% approaching .450 that he’ll have a career and probably a half decent one at that… but if it doesn’t get above .400 this year then he’ll either be a 9th or 12th man type or be out of the league within 6 years….

    93. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      You can’t look at just one stat, you have to look at all of them. If you look at all the advanced stats in BR, Exum’s stats portray a roughly median player. Frank’s stats will be different, because he has different strengths, But the timeline could be similar. Exum’s stats took a big jump from his third to his fourth year. Frank could easily be on the same time line (although I hope he doesn’t lose a year to injury). We all want Frank to be great, and I still have hope that will happen, But getting a typical NBA player with the ninth pick in the draft is actually a normal result for a mid first round pick.

    94. swiftandabundant

      Can we have a self imposed moratorium on Frank talk until, say, February? There are plenty of other things to talk about and its getting tiresome to talk about this EVERY SINGLE GAME (whether its a good game or a bad game by him).

    95. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      I think it is more important Frank’s three point shooting gets more consistent than his two point percentage.

    96. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      ptmilo, what makes you say that?

    97. d-mar

      That “Players Only” game coverage on NBA TV is the worst idea ever. A bunch of ex-players watching the game and saying insightful things like “Ooooh, that was nasty!” and “Heat check baby!”

      Just horrible.

    98. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      Wierdly enough, we could trade Fultz for Lee straight up. For all his faults, Fultz would probably immediately be our best point guard. And Phillie would probably be a better team after the trade, But I think they would get so much heat for trading a young former number one pick, I don’t think they would do it.

    99. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      I looked at the headlines. It looks bad enough I don’t want to look.

    100. ClashFan

      Uh, isn’t this what tanking really looks like? Many of us here like to “talk the talk” about tanking. Now it is time to “walk the walk.”

      By January, the starters should be Frank, Trier (those two can split time as the 1 and 2), Knox, Vonleh (I’d try to sign him to a cheap deal right now), and MitchRob. Play ’em each 30 minutes each as much as possible. Fiz, coach them up! Reps. Reps. Let the losses pile up. THJ sixth man b/c he has the long-term deal. Everyone else is trade bait or do not tender.

    101. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      thanks tnfh. I have to say, Philly is giving the impression they are not good at developing young talent.

    102. Bruno Almeida

      Damn, that’s a terrible one, LeVert was having a hell of a start to the season too… the Nets just can’t catch a break.

    103. geo

      That “Players Only” game coverage on NBA TV is the worst idea ever. A bunch of ex-players watching the game and saying insightful things like “Ooooh, that was nasty!” and “Heat check baby!”

      Just horrible.

      ^^^^so much this^^^^

      pretty much need to mute…

    104. BigBlueAL

      The players only coverage was always awful but at least in the past it was contained to just the studio for pregame, halftime and postgame stuff. Having them calling the game from the studio is the worst possible idea ever.

    105. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, it’s really really dreadful. I guess at least it kinda helps drive the point that ex-players don’t necessarily understand the game or analyze it at a very deep level.

    106. geo

      after reading a bunch of comments here, started watching some clippers broadcasts…they are a sneaky good team…

      gotta say though, everytime I see SGA out on the court I start grinding my teeth…man, he would have looked great in orange and blue…

    107. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      the Kings just beat the Spurs, 100 to 90. I think the Kings are for real. That could be us in a year or two.

    108. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

      I’m not sure either. Part of it may be their new coach. Part of it may just be young players getting better.

    109. Bruno Almeida

      Fox is shooting very well and he’s evolved in all other aspects of the game, he’s looking like a star in the making. Hield was always a talented shooter, and WCS is playing super well too. I think they are legit too.

    110. Donnie Walsh

      Is don’t follow college ball or know much about draft prospects outside of what people post here. But those folks here wishing for Shaivonte Gilgeous-Alexander at #9 are the people that I’d like to be in charge of drafting for the Knicks next year.

    111. Brian Cronin

      I’m not sure either. Part of it may be their new coach. Part of it may just be young players getting better.

      I have always been a Joerger fan, but he was their coach the last two years and they were terrible.

      I imagine it’s mostly just the younger players improving. I was dreaming of the Knicks somehow getting Fox last year, but then his shot was totally busted last season and now it, well, isn’t. When guys like Fox learn to shoot, they’re suddenly like mini-superstars.

    112. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

      But those folks here wishing for Shaivonte Gilgeous-Alexander at #9 are the people that I’d like to be in charge of drafting for the Knicks next year.

      Hello.

    113. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I don’t care why the Kings are playing well, I just hope they make the playoffs so that Boston can’t get another lottery pick.

    114. Grocer

      Fultz is pump faking free throws, we should totally trade for him. He belongs on the island of misfit toys.

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