Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, April 17, 2014

Pistons 92, Knicks 86

There are no bright spots.  There isn’t a goat.  There are no A’s and B’s, no D’s and F’s.  There are players who seem utterly incapable of doing what is required of them and then there are other players whose lesser crime is that they can’t cover up the blemishes anymore.  So let’s start there.  That’s the scenery.

There is a coach, a coach who won 54 games last year and garnered considerable popular support during awards season.  A coach who has been reduced to platitudes (“We just don’t know who we want to be yet!”) that would be easily dismissed as trivial if they weren’t both accurate and, when you think about it, kind of his fault.  He might still be the coach in a week.  He might not.  But that’s not the point.

There is a star and he faces a conundrum.  He craves respect, needs it, knows within himself he’s earned it.  And that means that when he draws contact, the refs blow the whistle.  And when they don’t, he feels it burning between his ears and his head goes down and the open man is an afterthought and it’s a test of his worth to go through his obstacles (over them, not around them) and, hey, that’s a foul dammit!  That’s a foul!  And a whistle but not on the defender.  A technical. And 8-for-20 and 7 turnovers and nothing at the defensive end and how can you expect the respect, how can you expect to be viewed as a leader, when a couple of iffy calls are enough to knock all the leadership right out of you.  He’s the protagonist in an O. Henry story and he’s the only one who can’t see it.  But that’s not the point.

There is a big Italian forward and he’s sort of awkward and gangly but he’s playing his butt off and his shots are dropping and almost none of this is his fault except for the part where he’s filling in for the team’s best rebounder, best help defender, and he just can’t grab a rebound or protect the rim.  He’s tall and he’s deceptively strong and he’s not lazy and if you try to back him down he doesn’t budge.  But rebounding and rim protection are their own skills and there are people who can do them and he isn’t one of them and neither is anybody else on the team right now.  He’s probably been the Knicks’ best offensive player these past few games, certainly as good or better than any of us had a reasonable right to expect, but there’s a job that needs doing that he simply isn’t the right person for and –

I mean, isn’t that exactly the point?  See, there’s this thing that’s been happening during Knicks’ games lately: the announcer, whoever it is, tends to trot out the laundry list of all the veteran bigs who chipped in last year — ‘Sheed, Kurt, Camby — and say “Well, hey, look, that was an underrated part of the team’s success!  You need guys to chip in like that and this year’s Knicks are just going to need to get those kinds of contributions from someone on the team.”  Mike Breen said it tonight and for my money it was the lowest point of the whole evening (and that’s saying something) because it’s built on this kind of ridiculous insistence that somewhere within this group of players lies a magical switch that has yet to be flipped and when it finally is then, presto, playoffs!  Titles!  Champagne corks and high fives and girls in bikinis and all-you-can-eat shrimp!

But when do they talk about the way the team was built?  When do they talk about who built it?  Politics are miles from the point but I can’t be the only one who gets a little bit offended when labor gets called out for basically being lazy and ineffectual while management (and I mostly don’t mean Woodson here) gets a pass?  Last year we made smart moves in the offseason and added cheap veteran contributors.  We made smart moves in-season and added more.  And when adversity struck — as it always strikes — we were ready.  And we acquitted ourselves damned well.

This year we didn’t do that.  The moves were flashier, more expensive, less targeted at the team’s needs.  And now adversity has struck and the pegs are square and the holes are round and this is what it looks like when you disregard fit in the interest of intriguing skill sets in a sport where fit is critical and intriguing skill sets are just that: intriguing.

We will be better when Tyson Chandler comes back.  We may still make the playoffs (if you want to take comfort in anything, tell yourself that we’ve been horribly unlucky to run into a bunch of teams with great front lines right when our best interior defender is hurt – you wouldn’t be wrong.) and at this point, without a draft pick, that might qualify as its own small measure of victory.  But Tyson Chandler isn’t the point.  There will always be injuries and sometimes the guys who they befall are critical to what you do and that’s show business.

Chandler isn’t the point.  Bargnani isn’t the point.  Melo isn’t the point.  Woodson isn’t the point.

The Knicks are a ten-million-dollar beach house without reinforced windows or an emergency generator or flood insurance.  And every time there’s a hurricane warning, the architect just springs for a new paint job.

And that’s the point.

85 comments on “Pistons 92, Knicks 86

  1. TheRant

    Very well written, Kevin.

    There’s really not much else to say, other than a name that rhymes with “Drain Poland,” and the last time I mentioned this name, my post was deleted. So I’ll just sit here and whimper.

  2. nerfherder

    So the knicks aren’t the best–we know this. But you are a very good writer, and are a pleasure to read in spite of the unpleasant nature of the topic. Kudos.

  3. Kevin McElroy Post author

    @1:

    I can promise you that we don’t delete comments that are critical of the owner unless they’re offensive for some other reason. Sometimes the filter behaves oddly, I don’t know. If you’d like to post it again (as long as it’s appropriate otherwise) I’ll make sure it stays up.

  4. Owen

    The Knicks are a ten-million-dollar beach house without reinforced windows or an emergency generator or flood insurance. And every time there’s a hurricane warning, the architect just springs for a new paint job.

    And that’s the point.

    Love it.

    Loving the Walt Frazier documentary too.

    When will we see his like again?

  5. JK47

    You think these guys suck now, just wait until 2014-2015. There’s still lots of crashing and burning, panicked trading and future-sabotaging to do. If you can count on one thing it is that the idiots that run this team will make the current situation worse.

  6. Jack Bauer

    There is no plan on offense, no effort on D, no chemistry, and the point guard play is Atrocious. AB was taking it strong to the rim in the first half and finishing, so what do they do? Stop passing it to him of course. This is getting ugly really fast, Indy is going to destroy them unless they play a whole lot better ( not counting on it)

  7. hoolahoop

    I’ve come to believe that Melo is probably the most talented scorer in the NBA. But, he really doesn’t know how to play basketball. Jason Kidd is sorely missed.

    The ship be sinkin. How low? Sky’s the limit.

  8. Brian Cronin

    Luckily, Boston is the only team in the Atlantic Division who isn’t 3-7 in its last ten games (they’re 4-6). So the division is bizarrely still ripe for the taking!

  9. Robert Silverman

    We are absolutely still a favorite to make the playoffs. My take on the state of the team is totally compatible with that reality, in my opinion.

    Yep. And if they do, it’ll only reaffirm to the powers (or power) that be that their plan (ha!) is working. That’s what’s so awful. They’re screwed if they succeed and screwed if they fail.

  10. Brian Cronin

    Oh yeah, I totally agree with you, Kevin. It’s just interesting that they’re 3-7 and they’re probably still the favorites to win their division (as Brooklyn has looked just as bad as the Knicks and they don’t have the excuse of missing Tyson Chandler).

  11. BigBlueAL

    In regards to Melo, why the hell would he want to stay here if not just for the money?? I believe at this point the only thing left for him to accomplish in his career is winning a title obviously and I assume thats what he feels too. So if thats truly the case again why would he want to stay here??

  12. Brian Cronin

    Because it would be embarrassing to him to leave New York as a failure. Plus, yeah, the money obviously doesn’t hurt.

  13. SirJim

    I did an awful lot of head nodding during this recap.

    I think that might be the source of the panic this year. The expectations were/are completely at odds with the current product. It’s been surprising to watch teams like the 76ers and the Suns do well because they were expected to tank to win the Wiggins sweepstakes, and they’re defying expectations.

    The Knicks were expected to be on the same track as last year, because we’re trotting out a similar team with what were supposed to be upgrades. But it’s not happening, and the most frustrating part of all this is that it feels like we’re RIGHT THERE, that if only they’d do the things that work, that we know work, that they know work, we’ll be back at the top.

    But it’s not happening. We have forwards we expect to play center, scorers we expect to be leaders absent true elder statesmen, bench players that tweet pictures of butts and get into twitter fights that we expect to show rational judgement both on and off the court, young shooting guards that we expect to play well despite only being three years in and the subject of constant trade rumors, centers we expect to clean up the messes that poor rotations and terrible switch decisions leave behind, and former All-Stars we expect to have regained All-Star form despite years of surgeries and setbacks.

    I was excited and surprised to watch the Knicks last year. We expected some improvement over 2011, and our expectations were exceeded with a #2 seed in the conference. Lest we forget, this same thing happened toward the middle of the season. Games were lost, panic was had, and they managed to right the ship. I still believe that can be done. We just have to hope the front office doesn’t cut off the nose to spite the face in the meantime.

    I’ll see you all out there tomorrow. Maybe a strong opponent will stimulate some change. Maybe they’ll get crushed. But I’ll be there to watch regardless.

  14. JK47

    If the Knicks give Melo the max extension, there’s really no point in following the team anymore. That puts us through what, 2019 until that contract comes off the books? And you know it will be an untradeable, unmovable contract almost the minute it’s signed and that Melo will spend at least 75% of that contract injured.

    Melo getting a max contract is the worst case scenario, a Titanic-into-iceberg move. It’ll render the team obsolete for the remainder of the decade. Star Wars Episode 9 will be coming out when that contract expires. Hillary Clinton will be gearing up her re-election campaign. Playstation 5 will be out.

  15. chrisk06811

    i feel like we overreact a little bit to the successful adding of cheap veterans last offseason…..I only count Kidd and Ray as successful. Camby sure wasn’t. Sheed was good for a handful of games early. Thomas played his ass off but was a corpse. By the time we signed K Mart, we had blown the chance to sign Chris Anderson. James White and Brewer? Yuck. What made last offseason successful was the unknowns…Cope and Prigs.

    Of course, that has nothing to do with how badly we suck right now.

  16. SirJim

    It’s just interesting that they’re 3-7 and they’re probably still the favorites to win their division (as Brooklyn has looked just as bad as the Knicks and they don’t have the excuse of missing Tyson Chandler).

    They’re missing Williams, Pierce, Lopez, and Garnett.

  17. SirJim

    By the way…what’s our alternative here? Get every player off the books in 2015 and start completely over?

  18. Jack Bauer

    Garnett played in the last game for NJ, errrr Brooklyn. They better get used to playing without the old guys as they will be DNP injured for a big chunk of the season and useless come playoff time.

  19. Brian Cronin

    They’re missing Williams, Pierce, Lopez, and Garnett.

    Garnett and Pierce have missed one game each and Williams and Lopez have missed two. But fair enough, if Williams and Lopez are out for an extended period, that’ll be the equivalent of the Knicks missing Chandler.

  20. Owen

    By the way…what’s our alternative here? Get every player off the books in 2015 and start completely over?

    Yep. And trade off our productive pieces for as much value as we can get.

    Which, with the way MSG operates, will almost surely land Demar Derozan and Nick Young in the Garden…

  21. BigBlueAL

    I dont think Melo will feel embarrassed to leave NY. If the team truly struggles this year (sneaking into the playoffs and getting crushed in the 1st round qualifies) he can justify leaving as the team struggling not being his fault. Hell I might have more respect for him if he leaves than if he stays for the money lol.

  22. Brian Cronin

    I just don’t see it. When a big market revolves their team around you, you just don’t leave on your own volition.

    By the way, whether we feel he is worth it or not, Melo is still tradeable even if he signs a MAX extension. There are at least 15-19 teams out there that would gladly pay Melo $25 million a year.

  23. nicos

    I don’t think 15-19 teams will be willing to trade for Melo with a new contract- too many teams prefer treading water to risking going over the cap. I agree he’ll still be movable but trading a max contract guy isn’t always easy- you’re almost always going to have to take back a fair amount of baggage to make the salaries match.

  24. massive

    Here’s what going to happen:

    The Knicks are likely to struggle badly until Chandler comes back and anchors that frontline. When he returns to his normal, ass-kicking form, the Knicks will go on a nice little streak that gets them at or around .500 at the ASB. Then we trade Shump and probably STAT for an overpaid “scorer” on a team that hasn’t met expectations for the year. It will be a last ditch effort to push for the top 4 seeds in a conference that is only 3 deep. People here, including myself, will say that the Bargs project was successful, so why can’t we catch lightning in a bottle twice? Because, you know, Knicks. Then we’ll beat Brooklyn in quite possibly the ugliest 4-5 match up ever for the right to be swept by Miami in the following round.

    I really like how a Udrih, Shumpert, Melo, Bargnani, and Chandler starting 5 sounds. Too bad I’ll never get to see it happen.

  25. Brian Cronin

    Toronto and Philly are playing Wednesday night for first place in the Atlantic. That’s pretty hilarious. Oddly enough, at this exact point in time Toronto is probably the best team in the division/

  26. ruruland

    Melo wants to win in New York and knows that he has to take a pay cut in order to get the kind of help he needs to win a title (Kevin Love, which I said two years before SAS.)

    If he takes the 30 million max (everyone likes money, and he is surely tempted to, but I strongly believe he will not) and it keeps the Knicks from building the right kind of team around him, then he will ruin his legacy. He will have a few more million, but he’ll FOREVER squander the opportunity for a life of contentment/ fulfillment.

    It’s a very obvious sacrifice, and it’s truly bizarre to assume that this is somehow lost on both Melo and CAA (as we’ve read from people like Brian Windhorst)

    CAA became a prominent brand when three players took below market contracts to form a title team.

    Melo wants to see what is out there, and I think he learned from the original trade that his words and actions have unintended consequences.

    If you don’t think he’s become more of a big picture guy in NY, you’ve been sucked into an out-of-date narrative.

  27. ruruland

    “The expectations were/are completely at odds with the current product.”

    No, the season has started right in line with the expectations of most. A very small minority of posters on this board felt the Knicks would finish top three in the conference and repeat last year, and I would venture to guess a plurality projected the Knicks to suffer a substantial drop-off.

    That’s also true nationally, where once again not a single ESPN analyst picked the Knicks to win the Atlantic, and various projections had the Knicks at around .500.

    The reason the board is so busy right now is because most of these people feel validated, which is why you have Jowles and company crowing about.

    A very sizable portion of the fanbase is heavily vested in the Knicks failing post-Melo trade. That’s why the board was so quiet when the Knicks won last season.

  28. ruruland

    “Then we trade Shump and probably STAT for an overpaid “scorer” on a team that hasn’t met expectations for the year. ”

    The Knicks have purportedly shopped Shumpert for Asik, Rondo and Faried, but you won’t hear about that because that’s not how Isiah built the Knicks (even though he did attempt to bring in a lot of players that didn’t fit the mold) and because they overpaid for Melo and signed Stoudemire.

    Since trading for Melo, the only two players you can argue which fit the mold of one-dimensional scorer are J.R. Smith, who was critical to the Knicks success last year and will be again this year, and Bargnani. Everyone else has been a role player.

    Bargnani has flourished so far in an off-ball role and IS CLEARLY an upgrade to both Novak and Copeland.

    Had Novak and or Copeland been thrust into the position AB has, the Knicks would certainly be worse off.

    Naturally, it would be foolish to trade Shumpert for pennies on the dollar (even if his defense is very inconsistent and he’s yet to re-assert himself on offense this year), but the Knicks could have already done that.

    If they do find the right player, and it’s pretty clear they are looking for one that addresses the frontcourt or pg, then I think it could be a highly beneficial trade.

    While Shumpert has better upside than THJ, I think the Knicks can get more than adequate production from SG without Shump on the roster.

    There’s an element of disappointment in not keeping the drafted player that fits the NY mold, and I totally understand that, but there’s zero indication that the Knicks are trading Shumpert just to get him off the roster. I’m by no means in support of Dolan, but people are putting the cart before the horse.

  29. ruruland

    “Yep. And if they do, it’ll only reaffirm to the powers (or power) that be that their plan (ha!) is working. That’s what’s so awful. They’re screwed if they succeed and screwed if they fail.”

    What plan is that?

    Do you think the powers that be feel building around Amar’e was successful?

    Is there any doubt that if the Knicks were getting production from Chandler AND max-comparable production from Amar’e's contract that they would be an elite team?

    IF so, then there is a TON of validity to their current model.

    There’s no question that signing Amar’e was a colossal mistake, but look at how they’ve built around Melo/Chandler in spite of the Amar’e albatross.

    Good luck finding another team in the last decade that has finished in the top four in their conference without getting ANY production from a max salary player.

    It was silly to sign an injury prone and destined to be debilitated player to a long-term non-insured contract — dead horse — but if Russel Westbrook were to suffer a career ending injury ( and he plays a reckless style of game that would make him prone to such an injury) would that invalidate Presti’s model?

    The Knicks model is perfectly fine. They have given up too much in trades, totally agree, and they signed the wrong second star — understood — but they can build a championship team around a less than maxed out Melo.

    Draft picks are overvalued and role players who can flourish around great offensive players are relatively easy to find/accumulate on the cheap.

  30. ruruland

    The slow start is being overblown, though I doubt the hot streaks will be as well.

    Missing shots is the biggest problem right now. It’s leading to a lack of focus and energy on defense, and the offense becomes stagnant because Melo (oftentimes rightfully) tries to win it by himself, and players seem to generally lack confidence on either end, which affects what kind of shots they get and how aggressive they defend.

    They look clunky on both ends, and some of that is all of these new/different lineup combinations and some overlapping skill sets. I see a ton of promise with Bargnani on the floor (provided he eventually gets rim protection) once JR gets going again. Roles get re-calibrated around tendencies and schemes, and I think those things are still a work in progress. Luckily for the Knicks, they have a pretty diverse set of offensive players, and Prigs is clearly the best fit around more higher usage players.

    Defensively, the Knicks did play some stretches of really good defense against Detroit, but Woodson’s insistence on doubling out of switches will probably be his down-fall. Spot-up threes are still the best shot in basketball, and not even the Heat and their speed can consistently cover the three point line out of traps.

    I think switching is perfectly fine, but doubling in it is generally a terrible strategy.

    I could see the Knicks beating the Pacers tomorrow, just because teams generally play their hardest when they know they can be totally embarrassed/emasculated, especially at home.

    The Knicks should have beaten both Houston and Chicago in the exact same situation. I bet that line tomorrow moves into the -7 for the Pacers and it’ll be easy money.

  31. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I wasn’t quiet when I predicted that the Knicks could be a high-50-win team last season, so I won’t be quiet when, for the third year in a row, I seem be on-point with my predictions. (Ronnie Brewer, Marcus Camby, blah blah blah.)

  32. flossy

    Melo wants to win in New York and knows that he has to take a pay cut in order to get the kind of help he needs to win a title (Kevin Love, which I said two years before SAS.)

    If he takes the 30 million max (everyone likes money, and he is surely tempted to, but I strongly believe he will not) and it keeps the Knicks from building the right kind of team around him, then he will ruin his legacy. He will have a few more million, but he’ll FOREVER squander the opportunity for a life of contentment/ fulfillment.

    Oddly enough, whether or not Melo takes a big discount to win will sort of seal your legacy here as well. Highly informed and congenitally optimistic quasi-insider with real insight into how Melo thinks? Or delusional fan blowing smoke because he’s borderline obsessed with his favorite player?

    I think the Knicks could build a damn good team around a re-signed Melo making $10-$15 million/year once Amar’e is off the books. That would mean at most a five year deal worth $75 million. That would mean Carmelo Anthony leaving $55 million on the table.

    Put me down in the “there is no fucking way that will ever happen” camp, as well as probably in the “shudders at the thought of a 34 year old Melo being the highest paid player in the NBA” camp. But hey, I’d love to be wrong!

  33. Frank O.

    For me, the biggest change, the biggest flaw, is the point guard play. Our defense won’t ever be very good without Chandler. The key though is the inability of Felton to play at a high level (by his standards). And his understudies are that, understudies. Udrih and Prigs are not starting guards in this league. They play well in moments, but there is a reason they don’t typically start.
    With the PG’s shot not dropping, with his inability to penetrate effectively, this team works harder to score and the defense isn’t good enough to cover for it. Even with Chandler, this team isn’t an elite defensive team. It was, however, and elite scoring team.
    Not new analysis, but the point I’m trying to make is some key pieces are either missing or not performing. Filling some needs with a Shump trade makes sense.
    Another option is to treat this year like the final year of Carmelo’s contract and shop him around to see what kinds of pieces the Knicks could bring back. There are teams out there that would give a lot for Melo.
    Ru interesting you made the point about him thinking about taking less to help build a better team. I’m not sure I see that because he also could get a max contract and go to a team with a better supporting cast and get the best of both worlds. Regardless, the Knicks cannot tie their fate to a single player who must make a decision based on his best interests. And there is history: Melo wanted to be a Knicks player, but he drove up the cost of the Knicks getting him and it cost the Knicks a lot of pieces. Half of the anger on the board toward Melo is how he behaved during that trade rumors. He could have forced a trade for less than the Knicks gave up, I believe.
    Sunk costs.
    But it might be a smart way to build up some draft picks and some nice pieces.

  34. d-mar

    Totally agree about the PG play, Frank O. Udrih was a big pile of suck last night, and Woodson resorted to using Shump as the PG late in the 4th quarter for lack of better options. Really, when you look around the league, is there any team weaker at that position than the Knicks? And when you have poor PG play at both ends of the floor, not a lot of good things are going to happen.

    And I said it on a previous thread, the Knicks just play dumb, dumb basketball. That Spurs game was the equivalent of a Jeopardy match between JR Smith and Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

  35. cgreene

    Ru, your optimism is appreciated but what’s lost in your argument re Amare is that it is consistently what this organization does. It makes the wrong big decisions. Hindsight or foresight. It doesn’t matter. Expect the Knicks to get the next one wrong as well.

    On another note I am sitting here dreaming up Melo trades and can’t think of one that I’d make. Melo would need to go to a team that believes its on the verge of a title and he puts them over the top. OKC, Indiana, Chicago, LAC, GS. I guess GS would be the most interesting partner there. Curry or Thompson + parts? Idk. You’re never going to get 100 cents on the $

  36. MSA

    What is this “legacy” that people keep talking about?

    One Atlantic Division Title?

    He’s here for 3 seasons not a decade, and in none of them the Knicks were real contenders.

  37. MarcusRinaldi

    I learned what Woody was all about on offense last year, when everyone had scouting reports for Novak and realized they just has to face guard him, and instead of setting picks and making plays to get him open, Woodson continued to have him simply stand there and hope to be open through ball movement. The man has no offensive creativity. We can’t blame that on Melo, because even if Melo is the one demanding the ball constantly and breaking down plays, as a good coach you need to tell your star to stop. Phil Jackson did it with Kobe.. I really think Woodson has no chance of righting this ship, only the players can. I’m not sure what coach out there could really help, but Mike Woodson is not the answer to the problems.

  38. ephus

    Before the season, I said that the season would be a double bogey (blow it all up) if the Knicks failed to make the playoffs. Well, the tee shot has set this team up in the deep rough with the ball behind a tree.

    I am not hopeful about my 46+ win bet against THCJ.

  39. Frank

    There is no plan on offense, no effort on D, no chemistry, and the point guard play is Atrocious. AB was taking it strong to the rim in the first half and finishing, so what do they do?

    Totally agree. It seems like when Bargnani has it going on, somehow he just doesn’t see the ball for 5-10 game minutes at a time. And re: the defense. Yeech. It actually wasn’t that terrible last night but it really just seems like there is no discipline. It’s not effort — guys are really trying hard I think — it’s just no one is staying with their assignment. Last night on a Singler 3, JR was in perfect position… until he decided for some reason to chase a guy cutting into the lane that Shump already had good position on. Then the pass went to Singler and JR was 15 feet away. Then all the doubling. All the doubling. It’s like no one knows who they’re supposed to rotate to after the double. Not sure if this is Shump’s fault or if he’s covering for someone else’s missed rotation, but it always seems like he’s running out on shooters from, like, 50 feet away.

    Now is a lot of this because no one trusts Bargnani in the middle to clean up any messes, so everyone is over-helping? Maybe, and so maybe it’ll get better when Tyson comes back. I don’t know.

    The offense… I don’t know what the issue is. But aside from his 7 TO blowup last night, Melo has not necessarily been the problem (although he certainly could be more of a solution than he is). This feels like the 2010-11 playoffs when no guard on the team could even hit a layup. Would be interesting to see how many open 3′s this team has missed. Feels like many.

  40. Frank

    Overall I’m thinking this start might actually be the best thing for the team long-term. One possibility is that the suckage continues, in which case maybe we blow the thing up and try to start over. As unappetizing as that sounds, that might be a good thing. Another possibility is that this start really affects Melo — like as in introspection and changing the way he plays. If anything has come out of all the post-game interviews, it’s that he seems genuinely baffled and shaken up about this start. This is a guy who has NEVER missed the playoffs in his career, and has never been part of a losing team. Maybe this start makes him reevaluate his max salary demands, concentrate on passing the ball more, etc.

    or maybe it makes him just shoot the ball 40x/game. Who knows.

  41. Frank

    Last thought – I don’t really think this start is all Woodson’s fault (there are definitely some team construction issues here), but I would not be sad in the least if he was fired. The big question is who would come in for him. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see Jeff Van Gundy back. I’d be super happy to get Stan Van Gundy too. Both those guys would whip this defense into shape. Not sure whether Dolan could/would ever do that though.

  42. Zanzibar

    I’m on record as having been slightly in favor of the Bargnani trade only because it would give us the option to play Bargnani as a Stretch 5 which would open up Melo and Amare’s offense (Bargs as a stretch 4 has never made a whole lot of sense to me). I was only “slightly” in favor because I was unsure about Amare and Bargs’ health. Would Bargs have lingering problems which would affect his 3FG%? The early returns are mixed – we can stick a fork in Amare before Thanksgiving but Bargs as a stretch 5 has worked well in certain lineups. And there’s no reason Bargs cannot improve his rebounding since it’s just a function of physique, box out technique and will. The reaction time tied to rebounding is no more than that of man post defense at which he excels. But yeah, Bargs will be a lousy help defender but there are ways to minimize this impact.

    I’m more optimistic than others for a couple of reasons. First, many teams (including Nets) in ECF are shakier than autumn leaves in a windstorm so we should make the playoffs, surviving this rough patch while TC and Felton are out. Second, we now have the option to play 2 very different lineups one of which could be critical in the playoffs.

    Main Unit – TC/Melo/JR/Felton/mix of MWP and THJ
    Backup Unit – Bargs/Melo/Shumpert/MWP/Prigs

    Who’s gonna stop that backup unit with Melo optimized working inside and feeding average+ 3ball shooters? The ultimate goal is to outscore the opponent not to have a good offense or good defense. That backup unit has done that so far this season. I’d play the backup unit 20mpg and then Chandler at 28mpg in various lineups including the main unit for about 15 mpg (Melo=35mpg).

  43. thenamestsam

    Things are almost definitely going to get better – we’ve had a bunch of tricky matchups recently, Tyson will come back, we’re going to shoot better at some point. If we all should have learned anything from last year’s up and downs it’s that your team is never as good as you look at your highest point, or as bad as you look at your lowest point. There were parts of last season that were almost as bad as this, except we already had a nice cushion when those bad periods hit.

    That said, keeping calm with this team is increasingly difficult to me, and most of that is down to the coaching. It’s obviously not all on Woodson, but he is a truly awful coach. We can leave aside for now that the team doesn’t have any plan on offense or defense, and that 3 weeks into the regular season they’re still trying to find their identity and “figure out who they are” when competent coaches seem to manage that in the preseason. Let’s just talk about the rotation. Melo’s minutes are out of control. KMart is only playing 10 minutes every other night then last night he’s all of the sudden available for 30 minutes. We have no centers but can’t even take a look at Aldrich. The whole situation with Amare is a mess. One game we’re riding two PG lineups and the next we’re playing no point guards. Let’s talk about tactical issues – the mistake with Hack-A-Howard the other night, the lack of Hack-A-Drumond last night, his constant going away from what is working, specifically Bargs down the stretch in the last few games. He’s obviously in a tough spot right now with Chandler out, but he’s making the problems worse in each and every game. At worst you expect your coach to stay out of the damn way and he’s an active negative right now.

    People keep asking who we can hire that would do better. I challenge you to answer a different question: Who could we get that would do worse?

  44. Hubert

    So, I’m curious: what did you guys talk about from like 2004-2008? I’m curious because it seems like that’s where we’re headed, and I’m wondering what there will be to talk about.

    I can’t bring myself to keep commenting about Mike Woodson. The man is not smart. There were so many ways that fouling Andre Drummond would have helped us last night and he recognized none of them. When presented with the choice of a) fouling Drummond until they took him out of the game or b) trying try to mount a comeback with fewer possessions against a top defensive big man and a dominant rebounder…the man chose b. And then he proceeded with an amazing 0-PG lineup.

    So yeah, what is there going to be to talk about when we’re mired in mediocrity and Melo is signed until 2019 and we have no draft choices? It sounds exactly like the Marbury era and you guys thrived then, it seems. But back then you had the whole “stats vs advanced stats” thing going and now pretty much everyone gets that so that won’t be able to carry us.

    I’m genuinely worried. Not about the Knicks, they’re done. There is nothing left to worry about with them. You worry about the ship when you can fix the hole. We’re in the “be sinking” part already. I’m worried about what there is going to be to talk about. How many different times can we talk about a coach/player/GM/owner being stupid?

  45. Hubert

    thenamestsam November 20, 2013 at 10:34 am

    Things are almost definitely going to get better

    That’s funny because I am certain they are going to get worse.

    We still have the inevitable terrible Shumpert trade coming. And the Law of Dolan stipulates that the guy we replace Woodson with after we fire him this month is going to be much worse, so we have that to look forward to.

    And then there’s the part where Allan Houston is being groomed to save us.

  46. Will the Thrill

    Why exactly would Melo and Kevin Love be a good pairing? They both score well, shoot threes, aren’t focused on the defensive end, and are above average rebounders. Their roles will nearly overlap just as much as Amar’e and Melo, besides the fact that Kevin Love can stand around at the three point line waiting for Melo to swing the ball out of a double team (and this negates his ability to grab offensive rebounds).

  47. Hubert

    Things don’t get better. That’s not what we do here.

    The only time things got better was when the league basically forced Dolan to hire Donnie Walsh. Now he’s gone and his influence has nearly dried up and we’re back to Dolan and cronies making all the decisions.

    It doesn’t get better now, it gets worse.

  48. Owen

    Love and Melo are a terrible pairing. They play the same position. They both are mediocre defenders. One of them scores with elite efficiency and volume. The other is five years older. Someone needs to come up with a better pipe dream.

    “Yeach. It actually wasn’t that terrible last night but it really just seems like there is no discipline.”

    Monroe and Drummond had 29 points on 19 possessions But committed 8 turnovers. So yeah, there was one redeeming feature to our frontcourt defense. Drummond was impressive and terrible at the same time. He looks like a cross of Shaq and Ben Wallace. He dwarfed K-Mart and made Prigioni look like a gnat. But he has a ways to go as a basketball player. Still, very productive for less than 3 million dollars and a guy they should be able to lock up at a reasonable price down the road.

    So, I’m curious: what did you guys talk about from like 2004-2008?

    We talked about whether Eddy Curry was truly a franchise center or the worst centerpiece of a major trade in league history. We rooted for Lee and Balkman and Gallo. We split our hate equitably between Isiah and Dolan. And we talked a lot about advanced stats (BOP) and yes, the WOW. Those were the days when the idea of pace was a mystery, when you still had to explain to people why adjusting the numbers per 100 possessions is a logical and helpful thing to do.

    Things are so different on that front now. Sportsvu. Synergy. Every star poster at APBR then is working for a team now. Most of the stuff we talked about then is pretty much taken for granted by connoisseurs a this point and some of it has actually penetrated the mainstream.

    Ruru – That’s a lot of posting. Hat tip for maintaining your trademark optimism and keeping up the fight.

  49. thenamestsam

    That’s funny because I am certain they are going to get worse.

    We still have the inevitable terrible Shumpert trade coming. And the Law of Dolan stipulates that the guy we replace Woodson with after we fire him this month is going to be much worse, so we have that to look forward to.

    And then there’s the part where Allan Houston is being groomed to save us.

    Believe me I understand the sentiment. As a Knicks fan it’s pretty much logical to assume things are going to get ugly. But people were just as sure that the world was ending when we were in our slump mid-year last year and they pulled out of that tailspin even with Woody the dunce at the controls. We’re not winning a title this year, but even those of us who were pretty optimistic about this year had accepted that fact deep down I think. We wanted to make the playoffs and win a series.

    Well, guess what? Philly is still sitting in the 4th seed a measly one game ahead of the Knicks. Nobody is running away and hiding with this thing. Get Tyson back, get JR back in rhythm, maybe even accidentally get someone decent for Shump or get a real coach and our goals are still very reachable. You’re not going to be buying the season recap DVD or storing it away in the memory bank to tell the grandkids, but I don’t think implosion is inevitable just because we’re off to a slow start without one of our best players.

  50. massive

    I’m sorry; did I just read that Andre Drummond is a cross of Shaquille O’Neal and Ben Wallace? That’s a joke, and I think Drummond is a flat out beast. I don’t even think Pistons fans feel that way.

    Regarding a Shump trade, you do have to give the front office credit that he’s only been mentioned in deals for Asik Rondo, and Faried. The recent trend doesn’t make it look like we’re getting a volume scorer who sucks on defense back in a trade for Shumpert. In fact, the recent trend makes me believe Shumpert won’t go because the Knicks clearly value Iman Shumpert more than the rest of the league thought, and nobody is willing to pay that price. “Because Knicks” doesn’t seem to apply here.

    I just want to get a point guard on this team. We had one, let him walk, and ended up with a penguin. Maybe we really can swing Isaiah Thomas.

  51. KnickfaninNJ

    The reason the board is so busy right now is because most of these people feel validated, which is why you have Jowles and company crowing about.

    A very sizable portion of the fanbase is heavily vested in the Knicks failing post-Melo trade. That’s why the board was so quiet when the Knicks won last season.

    Ruruland,

    I think this isn’t a fair comment. Everyone here is a Knicks fan and want them to succeed. No one is vested in them failing, although some are pessimists and some are optimists. There always more discussion when things go wrong, because at that point people want action. I am sure the San Antonio board is pretty quiet at the moment, because they are winning handily. The quietness doesn’t say anything about San Antonio fans being vested in their team losing.

  52. johnlocke

    that was frustrating. two plays were really terrible to watch. The first was Amare on D, looking at the rim after Josh Smith raising up to take a three without even trying to attempt a close out, except Josh didn’t shoot it, he faked it and then passed to a guard who dribbled right by Amare, who was still watching the rim. Granted, they somehow didn’t score as the guard traveled but wow. I just don’t get how someone who gets paid that much, doesn’t have any sort of basic defensive instinct.

    the second play was in the 4th q, as we’re making a comeback, Melo gets a kick-out for three at the top of three point line, Bargnani is WIDE OPEN, no one within 10 feet of him, Melo sees him and takes the three with a defender running at him.

    The game came down to just more than those 2 plays, but man were they horrendous to watch. We lost this one on just basic basketball 101, be alert on defense and watch your man and the ball (50% FG shooting for Detroit); and sharing the ball on offense (16 assists for the game as a team; Melo with 1 assist and 7 turnovers).

  53. Donnie Walsh

    If he takes the 30 million max (everyone likes money, and he is surely tempted to, but I strongly believe he will not) and it keeps the Knicks from building the right kind of team around him, then he will ruin his legacy… If you don’t think he’s become more of a big picture guy in NY, you’ve been sucked into an out-of-date narrative.

    Isn’t “Melo’s Legacy” an out of date narrative? What legacy does he have to ruin? He’s been part of one good team in his life, and hasn’t made NY a contender in any of the 4 years he’s been with the franchise. He forced a depleting trade because he was afraid to not get max-money under a new CBA. When the Knicks got lucky (the way they had to thanks to said depleting trade), Anthony shat on the luck and forced both Lin and D’antoni out of town. This is his legacy, and it is up-to-date and current.

  54. Kevin McElroy Post author

    Real quickly: for some reason a bunch of clearly-not-spam comments were auto-marked as spam this AM. Zero idea why (I’m not here for my technical savvy) but I just ran through and approved them. Sorry if they’re out of order and sorry if it keeps happening — I’ll check on it a couple more times throughout the day but won’t be able to constantly monitor it. Hopefully the issue rights itself.

  55. DRed

    So, I’m curious: what did you guys talk about from like 2004-2008?

    The spacing created by Eddy Curry’s devastating low post scoring, how it allowed David Lee to inflate his scoring and rebounding, the value of Jamal Crawford’s talent for creating his own shot and his clutch shooting ability, Renaldo Balkman: greatest value draft pick in Knicks history or NBA history, “oh, I totally forgot Jerome James was on the roster”, Isiah needs to be given more time, Stephon needs a second scorer, and I’m sure plenty of things I forgot about. It was a dark time.

  56. DRed

    As for Melo’s legacy, all he has to do is go to a winner and win a championship and the lamestream media will fawn all over him. But who really cares about Carmelo Anthony’s legacy? I want the Knicks to win, and signing Carmelo to a max or near max deal through his decline phase is going to hurt the Knicks chances.

  57. johnlocke

    Thanks for the photo link DRed.

    Followed your link back to a site that had the horrible Amare play as well. I mean this is bordering on the comical, except I’m not laughing…

  58. Owen

    This is the Knicks defense GIF du moment….

    http://deadspin.com/what-the-hell-is-amare-stoudemire-doing-1467944648

    I’m sorry; did I just read that Andre Drummond is a cross of Shaquille O’Neal and Ben Wallace? That’s a joke, and I think Drummond is a flat out beast. I don’t even think Pistons fans feel that way.

    I should have been more clear. I wasn’t suggesting that he combines the best aspects of both. I just think he is a cross of the two of them. He has almost the height and reach of Shaq. He has the body fat of Wallace. He also has his free throwing shooting ability and a lot of his other offensive skills. Clearly, he isn’t as good on defense as Wallace was or on offense as Shaq was. Still extremely raw. But i would be very excited about him if I were a Pistons fan.

  59. Donnie Walsh

    A very sizable portion of the fanbase is heavily vested in the Knicks failing post-Melo trade. That’s why the board was so quiet when the Knicks won last season.

    This is offensive for so many reasons, I can’t even get into them thanks to the Ted Nelson character limit. But to say that the fans of this team want the Knicks to fail so that they can say “I was right and some anonymous blog-poster named Ruruland was wrong!” is just so thoroughly demeaning to people who have spent tens of thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of hours investing in their team.

    Good luck finding another team in the last decade that has finished in the top four in their conference without getting ANY production from a max salary player.

    Okay. The 2008-2009 Rockets paid Tracy McGrady $20,370,437 to play in 33 games (4 more than Amar’e played for NY last year). McGrady had a 6 pt worse PER, a WS/48 of almost half Amar’e's, and a TS% .145 points lower.

    That Rockets team won 53 games and lost to the eventual champion Lakers in a 7 game series.

    but you won’t hear about that because that’s not how Isiah built the Knicks

    Dude, you’ve probably never even heard of Scott Layden.

  60. Zanzibar

    As for Melo’s legacy, all he has to do is go to a winner and win a championship and the lamestream media will fawn all over him.

    This. The narrative would change instantaneously to Melo is member of elite club who has won championships at all levels – college, Olympics, NBA. I don’t understand why otherwise sensible posters keep harping on this whole Melo legacy narrative as to why he won’t leave NY. You want to put it to the test: only offer Melo the max OTHER teams can offer him. Are you really confident he wouldn’t bolt? Personally I think he and his wife want to be in a major media center, preferably LA or NYC so he would play for Knicks/Nets/Clippers/Lakers looking at money/roster. I wouldn’t rule out Chicago or Boston though. Question for Brian: If we trade Melo at the trade deadline, could receiving team offer him the same max deal we could have offered him? I know we could S&T him at the end of the season.

  61. DRed

    I can’t understand why Drummond only has 17 FTA this season. He’s only made 3 of them! You’d think teams would be trying to put him on the line more.

  62. Brian Cronin

    If we trade Melo at the trade deadline, could receiving team offer him the same max deal we could have offered him? I know we could S&T him at the end of the season.

    No, the only way he makes the MAX max is if he re-signs with the Knicks (and then they couldn’t trade him until after December 15th).

  63. custer

    And then there’s the part where Allan Houston is being groomed to save us.

    With all the doom and gloom on the board right now, I still think that this is the aspect that scares me the most. Nothing against Allan Houston, he was a great player and seems like a sharp enough guy, but the notion of this front office grooming anyone for success is enough to drive me to drink (more).

    :(

  64. JK47

    Who gives a shit about “Melo’s Legacy” besides Ruru? Is anybody talking about Adrian Dantley’s legacy, or Mark Aguirre’s legacy? Because that’s the caliber of player that Melo is, probably better than Mark Aguirre but not as good as Dantley.

    This isn’t Michael Jordan we’re talking about here. Melo is a pretty good volume scoring small forward, but fuck his “legacy.” He doesn’t get a “legacy.”

  65. JK47

    A very sizable portion of the fanbase is heavily vested in the Knicks failing post-Melo trade.

    Hah. Yeah, right. A “sizable” portion of the fanbase not only wants the team to lose, but is “heavily vested” in the Knicks losing. This team has done nothing BUT lose for the majority of the last 13 years. And they have not only lost a lot, they have lost in a way that crushes all hopefulness: they continually mortgage their future with panicked “win-now” moves when the team is not ready to “win now,” thus setting up a never-ending cycle of failure and frustration. This year is down the tubes, next year is down the tubes, so most of us find ourselves in a familiar position: hoping the team doesn’t repeat the same mistakes and ensure another generation of the cycle.

    The people who are still around rooting for them after all of this bullshit deserve some credit for being pretty diehard fans considering the meager rewards you get as a reward for rooting for this franchise. One playoff series win in 13 years.

  66. ephus
    If we trade Melo at the trade deadline, could receiving team offer him the same max deal we could have offered him? I know we could S&T him at the end of the season.

    No, the only way he makes the MAX max is if he re-signs with the Knicks (and then they couldn’t trade him until after December 15th).

    I do not think that is correct. A traded player carries his Bird Rights with him. ‘Melo has full Bird Rights at the end of this year, so any team that received him in a trade would have the ability to use the Bird Rights to offer him a Max Deal. But, they would have to wait until ‘Melo exercised his Early Termination Option at the end of the year.

    Because Carmelo might be in the last year of his contract, the Knicks could not do an extend and trade.

  67. Brian Cronin

    Who gives a shit about “Melo’s Legacy” besides Ruru? Is anybody talking about Adrian Dantley’s legacy, or Mark Aguirre’s legacy? Because that’s the caliber of player that Melo is, probably better than Mark Aguirre but not as good as Dantley.

    This isn’t Michael Jordan we’re talking about here. Melo is a pretty good volume scoring small forward, but fuck his “legacy.” He doesn’t get a “legacy.”

    Whether we care about it or not, he clearly does. You don’t force your way on to a big market team and then leave on your own volition. It just doesn’t happen. Dwight Howard, for instance, never chose the Lakers, they traded for him with no guarantee that he’d re-sign with them. When you force your way to a team in a big market, you’re there until they decide to get rid of you. And since Melo is still in his prime (and the Knicks are not the brightest organization in the world) they won’t consider getting rid of him until he’s 35 or older.

  68. Brian Cronin

    I do not think that is correct. A traded player carries his Bird Rights with him. ‘Melo has full Bird Rights at the end of this year, so any team that received him in a trade would have the ability to use the Bird Rights to offer him a Max Deal. But, they would have to wait until ‘Melo exercised his Early Termination Option at the end of the year.

    Because Carmelo might be in the last year of his contract, the Knicks could not do an extend and trade

    You’re right in the theoretical sense, but no team would trade for Melo without a guarantee of him re-signing with them, right? So that’s what I meant by the team acquiring him not being able to give him the MAX max, because no team would try to trade for him without him signing an extension (or at least no team would give you anything worth trading for without an extension). And in that case, as you note, the extend and trade would be noticeably smaller than the MAX max he can sign with the Knicks.

  69. KnickfaninNJ

    Well the Lakers did trade for Howard with out a guarantee of signing him, so you can’t say it’s totally impossible.

  70. Zanzibar

    You’re right in the theoretical sense, but no team would trade for Melo without a guarantee of him re-signing with them, right?

    Probably not but didn’t the Lakers do that with Howard? Let’s say Knick management asks Melo near the trade deadline if he intends to opt out and re-sign at the end of the year. And let’s say Melo is non-commital. Maybe Dumars decides it’s worth the risk to give up Monroe (Stuckey and/or Villanueva to make salaries match) for Melo. He figures he can offer Melo much more money than any other team and a front line of Drummond/Smith/Melo would be attractive in convincing him to stay.

  71. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Carmelo Anthony will never be the #1 option on a championship team. That’s not me being pessimistic; that’s me being realistic.

    I have crowed on about the Knicks’ shitty decision-making for years, and I’m right more often than I’m wrong. That’s just a fact. Am I some sort of guru? No. The problem is that Knicks’ management makes obviously awful decisions (Curry, Jalen Rose, Steve Francis, Marbury, Houston, Jerome James, Amar’e [which I called, saying he'd become an expiring washed-up piece, and was correct about], Carmelo, and soon-to-be Bargnani) and they’re so easy to spot than anyone with even an elementary understanding of TS% and BMI could call them.

    I don’t want the Knicks to fail. I do want James Dolan to fail, but this group of guys will never be what 80% of the posters on this board expected them to be. And that’s factorial.

  72. Ibai

    Great article.
    I’m a spanish fan of de NY Knicks and I can’t understand why the MSG crowd is so kind with Dolan. The guy is doing his job as bad as you can possibly do and I never saw a game where people go for him to make him sell the team or, at least, take a step aside. Here, when a soccer team is managed the way the knicks are managed right now things usually get bad for the owners during and after games and sooner or later they end up selling the team. I’m not talking about violence just make him know that the city and the franchise deserves a better owner than him and he can’t be there watching games like he has nothing to do with why the team underperforms year after year.
    I´ve only followed the knicks on a daily basis for 3-4 years from now so it may be just resignation but I’m pretty sure that there is people who can afford to buy the knicks and will be interested in doing it. So why nobody does nothing? The ones who chant “fire Woodson”, really think Woodson is the problem? I just don’t get it
    P.D. Sorry for my english but I don´t use it to much.

  73. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The ones who chant “fire Woodson”, really think Woodson is the problem? I just don’t get it

    Scapegoating is a trope in sports. It’s never going to end.

  74. Owen

    Ibai – Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be much we can do about Dolan. You can join Occupy MSG on Facebook. But the only leverage we have as fans is not buying the product. And no one wants to buy the Knicks without buying MSG also. The real money is in owning the network.

    But yes, Dolan is one of the worst owners in professional sports.

  75. DRed

    I had to take a break from the game right after this. I was shouting at the TV. I mean, Amare was so out of sync. He bought a weak fake and simply turned for the shot and the guy went past him. So ridiculous.

    I can’t tell you how to be a fan, but rooting for the Knicks right now is a bit easier if you learn to laugh at some of the preposterously terrible defense. I still yell at the TV a lot when we’re losing, but it’s easier on the soul if you sprinkle in some laughter.

  76. Ibai

    Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be much we can do about Dolan.

    Dolan is at MSG nearly every game, and normally very well accompanied, you can boo, whistle and shout at him so he has to go out of the building. But looking at him sitting there and not doing nothing because nothing can be done bothers me, the guy is a joke!
    He may never sell the team but at least make it unpleasant for him to attend to games. And maybe if he stops going to Knicks games the NY City dancers will be allowed to dance, that will be a start! LOL

  77. max fisher-cohen

    Until Melo announced he was opting out, I definitely thought it was possible Melo would stay in NY for a smaller contract, but if his priorities go like this (as ruru is suggesting):

    1) Win in NY

    2) Win elsewhere

    3) Make money

    Then the obvious choice is to simply opt in and make $23.5 million next season and then see how 2015 goes in terms of signing another star. If he signs a new cheap contract now, he risks the Knicks striking out in FA in summer 2015 and being stuck on what could be a pretty bad team until his prime ends.

    As far as the idea of surrounding a star with the right role players go, I think last year’s knicks are indisputable evidence that if you have a top 20 scorer, a top 20 defensive center and the right role players, you can win 45-55 games depending on luck and the strength of your conference.

    At the same time, IMO that strategy puts your ceiling at the conference finals, which even the Bulls, who at their peak had a number of guys on rookie deals who were making way less than their FA value (Gibson, Noah, Asik), weren’t able to get past. To become legit top 3 team, you need two top 20 players, and because max salaries grow as players get more experience and because of restricted free agency, it’s just damn hard to get those players.

    I think we won’t see another miami type team for a long time, the main reason being those three guys were all in the same draft class, the deepest draft class since this one, so their contracts all expired in line with each other. GMs will also be more willing to play hardball about opt outs after seeing what happened with the Heat.

  78. Donnie Walsh

    Dolan is at MSG nearly every game, and normally very well accompanied, you can boo, whistle and shout at him so he has to go out of the building. But looking at him sitting there and not doing nothing because nothing can be done bothers me, the guy is a joke!

    Unfortunately, the folks sitting within Dolan’s earshot are corporate schmucks that carry not an ounce of passion for the team. It costs a zillion dollars to sit down there, and those that can afford it aren’t there for the basketball. (Yes, he’s successfully turned MSG into the Staples Center to boot!)

    Besides, Dolan only shows up at games when it’s relatively safe. If you really want to get through to him, sit front row at a Jimmy and the Straight Shot gig and scream your fucking head off!

    (And join the late Jon Abbey’s OccupyMSG movement: https://www.facebook.com/OccupyMSG )

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