Philadelphia 76ers 126 – New York Knicks 111 – Game Recap

I have a few things to say about the game, but first of all: is this the game we’ll go back in, say, five years, and retrodub it “The start of Mitch Lob dominance”? I feel like it might be, so hold this very pugnacious 15-point loss close to your heart.

That said: it was a very fun game, with a cool first quarter and the usual mini comeback in the second half sparked by bench players all around. Rotations and lineups were at the same time funky and at times effective, especially when Fiz decided at last to roll with Mitch at the 5 and Kornet at the 4 for a long stretch. It’s nice to see that a lot of KnickerBlogger’s alumni were right when calling for that combo to play together. They weren’t always pleasant to watch (Kornet moves like one of those 80s-90s action figures who had, like, only five joints and you could just push or pull their arms and legs, but never rotate them any way) but were a forest of skinny trees on defense and highly complementary on offense. I mean, I don’t think you need to be a genius to play together Mitch and a cheap rip-off of KP because their skill sets don’t overlap at all, but we needed 57 games to try them. I hope that, at least, from now on they’ll see at least 12 minutes together every game. There’s really no downside to that unless we bring in a lot of G-League hopefuls and try to give them a chance to convince management they belong in this league (Anthony Bennett, anyone?). I feel like there’s no need anymore to play Hezonja, Lance Thomas, and even my man Noah Vonleh, who looks deflated and much more useless now than a few weeks ago. Just sign a bunch of hopeful 3/4 tweeners on 10-day contracts and let them run amok. Oh, and of course I wish they didn’t ever play Mudiay again, but I can’t really be that optimist, can I?

There was no way we could have won this game (the Sixers have too much talent) but we brought the fight with different people in different moments: in the first quarter there were the extremely hot shooting from Damyean Dotson, the early scoring spree from DeAndre Jordan and the rejuvenated Iso Zo, with respectively 11, 8 and 7 points in the fraction; in the second we bumbled and fumbled a lot, scoring only 22 points to the 33 scored in the first period; and after the intermission we were buoyed for a bit (coming as close as six points down with less than 7 minutes to go) by the steady Kadeem Allen, the continued resurgence of Trier, and the majesty of Mitch. In the end we lost by fifteen, but the game was much closer than that.

The good:

– Mitchell Robinson (14 pts, 13 rebs, 1 ast, +9 +/-) was strangely quiet in the first half, with just two boards, a steal and an assist. It’s obvious that, for as good as he is, there can be nights where he don’t deal a lot of damage, because he can’t create anything by himself and the zone isn’t exactly the best system for a marauding shotblocker. Watching the first half, I thought this would be one of those nights when your future starter at the 5 spot just pays the price of being young and playing on a team with no above-average assistman (I think this is the right time to drop the notion that our best assistman for the night was DeAndre Jordan, with 7 assists, followed by DSJ with 5). But then, something happened in the second half. Offensive rebounds came his way, or better yet, he was closer to the basket than before and jumped higher than anyone in a Philly jersey; a few guys found him on lobs and passes into the deep paint (at last we got to see a thundering alley-oop on an assist from DSJ to Mitch), he was great on the boards even on defense and he acquainted himself with some opponent shots. The most astounding one was the first of his two blocks on Embiid. Mind you, the game was kinda close at the time, Knicks down seven with 3:10 to play. The gargantuan Cameroon-born drove to his right to deploy a running hook from 6 feet, a shot that is very difficult to block because it has a high release and a lot of body separation at the same time. Mitch blocked it almost effortlessly, to the befuddlement of Embiid and the other Philadelphia players, while Mike Breen roared “BLOCKED BY ROBINSON” with a level of awe he reserves to groundbreaking plays. I really feel this was one of them. It probably is the time when the League at large, and most importantly Mitch himself, acknowledged that his defensive potential is nothing short of All-NBA level. A few notes: on defense, he’s rebounding much, much better. His positioning has improved a lot, and he jumps high and with purpose to secure those boards. He’s also more vocal and emotional, and fouls a lot less. I guess some of DeAndre’s ways are rubbing on him in the right way. Your #MitchWatch: with last night, he reached a BPM of 6.0 and a WP/48 of .198 (in NBA’s history there have been only 181 such individual seasons, all by All-Stars. Only MJ and The Admiral reached those thresholds in their rookie season). In six games in February he’s posting averages of 11.8 points, 8.7 rebounds and 2.5 blocks, shooting .750 from the field and an excellent (for him) .684 from the line in just under 21 minutes per game. His ORtg is a mindshattering 155 for the month and an NBA-best 138 for the season. His BLK% is 9.9, meaning that for every 10 shots opponents hoisted during his playing time, he sent one back. I’m running out of words to describe what sort of season Mitch is having. Is there still anyone convinced that Mitch is not already better than KP?

– Allonzo Trier (19 pts, 4 rebs, 4 ast, +9 +/-) had a vintage Iso Zo performance, if such a thing exists. I say it does, since time in a tanking season runs at 0.25x, so a game in November is effectively like a season and a half ago. Nineteen points on nine shots, he went to the line with gusto and hit three trifectas. When Trier plays like he should, which is a Lou Williams/James Harden hybrid (in terms of style, not actual talent), he can’t be ineffective. If only someone cared to design a few sets that exploited the natural talents of our players… but whatever. I kinda like the Kadeem Allen – Allonzo Trier backcourt, because they can play to their strenghts without stomping on each other’s feet. Also, Allen can “take care” of the most dangerous opposing backcourt player, exposing Zo and his defensive shortcomings a little less. I think we can be happy with our undrafted rookie shooting .558 TS% while scoring 10 points per game in 22 MPG. His BPM is woeful (-4.1), which suggests he will at best peak as a third guard on a playoff team, but given our tracking record in the lottery we can’t be too choosy with the other spare parts.

The bad:

– Apropos of lottery tracking record, Kevin Knox (9 pts, 1 reb, 40% FG, -29 +/-) keeps on disappointing on many levels. It’s not that he’s not scoring enough. Frankly, that’s the less important thing in a thorough evaluation of a young prospect. It’s that he’s not doing anything else on the court. Tonight he got the start at SG (which is a bit reminiscent of the PJ Carlesimo-era Durant, just like me walking over a subway grating in a fluffy white dress is reminiscent of Marylin Monroe), played only 20 minutes thanks to foul trouble and wasn’t able to fill the boxscore but for a single board. Yeah, he had a monster highlight dunk in the second, but our own Mario has had a few of them during the course of the season and he’s unanimously bad, so highlight reel worthy plays don’t carry any weight here. For the month of February, he’s pulling down 4 boards per game and dishing just 1.3 assists per game  in 34 MPG. His ORtg for the month is 83. Scroll up a few lines and watch again Mitch’s numbers. The NBA Draft is just a fucked up endeavor.

Fun-sized bits:

– Kadeem Allen is now without a doubt our second best PG of this season (I’d still put DSJ ahead of him. It means four other current of former Knick players (three of which were lottery picks, and the fourth is the ever scrappy Ron Baker) are worse than a 26 year old NBA sophomore second round pick who played a grand total of 107 minutes in his first season. May I repeat “three of which were lottery picks”? If Mudiay comes back and eats at Allen’s minutes, I’ll be livid. If Frank does the same it’s kinda ok, we have him on the payroll for two more seasons. Mudiay is entirely pointless now. Kadeem’s per-36 as a Knicks: 15.6/4.8/6.4. Really not bad (if not for the fact that he’s playing for the worst team in the League).

– DSJ has some THJ vibe on him, but I’m not that angry at him. He’s not good, but he has a few things going for him. He should just pick his spots in the offense, instead of doing a terrible Westbrook impression.

– Speaking of Westbrook: what happened to Clyde? It looks like he’s tanking too. Last night he said of Westbrook “He was a reckless player who got better improving his shot selection”. If Westbrook improvements came from shot selection, I’m a zebra.

– I like feisty DeAndre. He played a good first half than made way for our savior Mitch, and seemed to find a lot of delight in hitting cutters with pinpoint passes. I’d probably be ok with keeping him (if we can get only one max free agent, hoping it’s one of the real max guys).

– Lance Thomas played 15 minutes. In a meaningless game in mid-February. I don’t understand it. Give Jenkins some burn if you need a wing, play Hicks if you need a four. Lance shouldn’t play a single minute for a 10-47 team in February. He somehow posted a team-high +11 +/-.

– Starting Mario Hezonja is useless Mario. I mean, Mario is always useless, but when he starts it looks a lot worse. He’s at his best when the game has already lost any semblance of meaning.

– Dotson is puzzling. He has completely given up on rebounding, which was one of his strengths in college and last year, and has transformed himself into some sort of streaky shooter. Tonight he began hitting 6 of his first 7 shots and then missed the next nine, and just grabbed 2 boards. For the life of me, I can’t remember a guy rebounding 33% worse than his rookie season. I guess someone did that, but I feel like it’s unprecedented. Somebody help me?

– Vonleh is downright depressing right now. It’s like not being traded somewhere he could be useful has had a bad impact on his play, although his monthly splits suggest the decline was in full swing since at least January, so he might just be gassed. Either way, what is he doing here?

I find a bit poetic that Mitch chose the first game I ever watched in my life without any glasses or contact lenses to announce his dominance. Let’s see if he follows on that tomorrow against the strangely fun Hawks!

 

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Farfa

Just an Italian basketball fan with an insane passion for all things Knicks (and yes, linguine Alfredo is not a real Italian dish).

161 thoughts to “Philadelphia 76ers 126 – New York Knicks 111 – Game Recap”

  1. Mitchell Robinson is freaking amazing.
    I love Anthony Davis and all, but agree with someone on the previous thread that if we somehow land Zion, I don’t know that I would trade Zion + Mitch for AD. Mitch, Durant, Zion would have potential to be maybe the best 3 man defensive lineup in the league.

    Is it wrong of me to want Frank, DSJ, and Knox all to go the Westchester? Whatever Mike Miller is doing down there is really effective.

    Who knew that Knox might be one of the best draft picks this year– he may singlehandedly bring us Zion. He is literally be one of the worst rookies in NBA history production-wise — maybe outdone only by Collin Sexton. Fizdale and co. always talk about player development– they REALLY have their work cut out for them with Frank and Knox. My guess is if we sign Kyrie and Durant that both will be gone in trade.

  2. So according to stats.nba.com – if I am reading this right, Joel Embiid on offense vs. Mitchell Robinson = 13 possessions, zero points, 0-4 from the field, blocked twice, and an offensive foul. This is freaking Joel Embiid, probably a lock to be 1st-team All-NBA center this year. Holy $#@%@#$.

  3. Fizdale is not going to end up being our coach in a few years I’m thinking. We have to keep our streak of paying multiple fired people going.

  4. I’ve been touting the very raw Robinson to my buddies since the summer. I expect the leaps he takes this off-season to be dramatic. He needs a tiny bit of a mid-range offensive game and the bravery to launch an occasional 3-pt shot. Hopefully he puts up 100K shots this offseason and works on a step-back jumper. His defense is not good, it’s incredible.

    I agree that we should send Knox and Frank to the G-league.

    This loss was upsetting. I disagree with you, Farfa, that this game was unwinnable. I can’t remember the last time the Knicks put forth a good effort for 4 quarters. Last night the swoon began in the 2nd quarter. After closing the gap to a 1-point deficit (44-43 @ Q2-9:07) the Sixers pushed the lead to 26 in a quarter (88-62 @ Q3-8:00). That’s 25 points in a quarter. WTF? That’s what has to stop. The Knicks looked deflated, lazy and stupid. The Sixers took 17 foul shots in the span. That’s what has to stop.

  5. I’m running out of words to describe what sort of season Mitch is having. Is there still anyone convinced that Mitch is not already better than KP?

    Yes, his name is Janis Porzingis.

  6. NBA Leaders in Blocks per Game:1) M. Turner – 2.7 (28.2mpg)2) A. Davis – 2.57 (36.4mpg)3) R. Gobert – 2.14 (31.6mpg)4) H. Whiteside – 2.1 (25.4mpg)5) M. Robinson – 2.07 (17.8mpg)— ?It’s a Hard Knicks Life? (@HardKnicksLife) February 14, 2019

    Mitch in the top 5!Another stat I just found while finishing up an article: Of 310 NBA players who've played at least 15 minutes per game since January 1, Mitchell Robinson's 77.6 eFG% is 1st among them. Not to shabby for a guy who didn't play last year.https://t.co/ADhnyFWeRg https://t.co/ckqIXzBNwD— Jonathan Macri (@JCMacriNBA) February 14, 2019

    Mitchell Robinson in 5 games since KP trade: 12.6 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 2.8 BPG, 74.3% FG in 22.6 min (Per 36 that's 20.1 + 14.0 + 4.5).Last night was first time since 11/16 he missed more than 2 shots in a game. Imagine when he actually has a clue as to what he's doin out there…— Jonathan Wasserman (@NBADraftWass) February 14, 2019

  7. I disagree with you, Farfa, that this game was unwinnable.

    I think the Sixers were playing with the minimum amount of effort needed. Right now they’re probably the third/fourth best team in the NBA and we’re the worst, talent-wise; moreover, we are not subject to good coaching, so I don’t think winning was possible, even without tanking reasons or strategies.

    Let’s agree to disagree :)

    I said last year that we should just hire whoever coaches the Westies

    If we strike out in free agency, I’d immediately hire Miller and send Fizdale packing.

  8. Embiid drew a couple fouls on Mitch in the first. Watching the first half, you sort of felt, yeah, he’s up against the best center in the league and it shows. Then the second half happened.

    It’s kind of strange after all these years in the muck and mire to suddenly find the Knicks in possession of a player who might be the single most productive asset in the NBA on a per dollar basis over the next three years.

  9. Mitch is probably gonna be extremely valuable on his next contract as well. Good thing we didn’t max KP so we have money to build around Mitch.

  10. Mitch is probably gonna be extremely valuable on his next contract as well.

    I mean, if this is only him scratching the surface he might actually be a real max player by year 5.

  11. It’s kind of strange after all these years in the muck and mire to suddenly find the Knicks in possession of a player who might be the single most productive asset in the NBA on a per dollar basis over the next three years.

    Don’t get too attached!

  12. It was nice to see Trier launch 4 3PA last night. Somehow that’s his season high and he’s only done it 5 times. I think he has a shot to be efficient enough off a team’s bench to make up for, well, everything else but he’ll probably need to get to 6+ 3PA per game without damaging his percentage in order to get there.

  13. It would have been fun to see people try to get off a shot in the paint if we had KP and Mitch patrolling and helping out.

  14. I’d immediately hire Miller and send Fizdale packing.

    Can’t they send just send Fizdale to the G-League for a week or two and see if he comes back better developed?

  15. Can’t they send just send Fizdale to the G-League for a week or two and see if he comes back better developed?

    lmao

    I have no strong view on Fizdale yet because it’s hard to tell how much of what he has been doing indicates he’s incompetent and how much indicates he’s been knowingly using bad combinations and asking players to do things they are not ready for trying to develop them.

    I have a strong view on Mills/Perry. They are incompetent. So they are going to stick with Fizdale if it turns out he’s bad because they are both too dumb to know it and too stubborn to admit it.

  16. It would have been fun to see people try to get off a shot in the paint if we had KP and Mitch patrolling and helping out.

    It was hard enough with Mitch and Kornet… but alas, Janis chose another way.

  17. Mitch’s age 20 season sure does compare pretty favorably to his upper-tier comps

    Mitch is posting absurd advanced numbers because, in the end, he makes very few boxscore mistakes apart from fouling like crazy (but it looks like he’s getting a lot better). He’s quite the best in the NBA at playing within himself, he never turns the ball over and never shoots from more than 3 feet (with a great touch around the rim – his scoops are a thing of beauty and he finishes strong even when fouled), all the while being supremely athletic.

  18. I don’t think we have to worry much about the Bulls in the tankathon anymore. They are a little healthier now than they were and have added Otto Porter. They are going to win some games. If they are 100% healthy next year, their rebuild should start sprouting next year. I don’t agree with everything they did, but overall they did a good job. They are well positioned with plenty of talent.

  19. Yeah on that note, did DSJ look as bad as his stats indicate? I’m pretty concerned about him being our main return for KP at this point.

  20. I don’t think we have to worry much about the Bulls in the tankathon anymore

    It’s amazing to be almost certain to lock a bottom three position before the All-Star break. If only Fiz and the guys got the memo once and for all, and stopped playing those useless expiring guys…

  21. I have a strong view on Mills/Perry. They are incompetent.

    Wait, what? Aren’t you the guy here that spent, like, a lot of time defending Phil Jackson’s incompetent reign? (To quote Inigo Montoya: “[we] keep using that word. I do not think it means a what you think ita means.”:)

  22. did DSJ look as bad as his stats indicate?

    Yes and no. His main problem is that his shot is bad. Not ultra bad, but bad. So if teams clog the lane (and our genius coaching staff don’t provide him with shooters in every other position save maybe for Mitch/DSJ) he dribbles a lot and ends up

    a) barreling toward the rim, where he could score or more likely crash on the defensive wall
    b) shooting from 10+ feet, which is unadvisable because his shot is very suspect to say the least
    c) passing the ball while jumping in the air (cue Clyde “A-ha, the cardinal sin!”), a 50% chance at a turnover.

    That said, he tries to get the team involved. He’s still a mess, but doesn’t only hunt for his shot.

  23. To quote Inigo Montoya: “[we] keep using that word. I do not think it means a what you think ita means.”

    #feels

  24. It was hard enough with Mitch and Kornet… but alas, Janis chose another way.

    I don’t hold Janis blame free because there are obviously some issues dealing with him, but this is the Knicks management spin.

    The reality is current management gave Janis and KP every reason to lose faith in their ability to build a winning team and make progress. They took over a team with 31 wins, 20m of cap space, a few good young pieces, and all its 1st round picks and turned it into an historically bad team with prospects like Hezonja, Mudiay, Burke, Hardaway, Knox, and some G leaguers in 2 years.

    Even if you are optimistic and pointed to Robinson (who has been terrific so far) and counted on some development from Knox and Frank the team looked 5-6 years away from contention.

    Why stick around on a bottom of the barrel team for a 5-6 year “process” if you can go to a better team with a better track record now?

    In exchange we are “all in” on Durant/Kyrie etc..

    If they pull it off, we’ll have a very good team for 4-5 years, but they will probably have to trade in at least some of the young chips and picks for veterans because there’s no way Durant is giving up a few years waiting for Knox, Frank, Trier, and whoever we draft this year to develop.

    If they go the Durant route, it’s “all in”.

  25. Wait, what? Aren’t you the guy here that spent, like, a lot of time defending Phil Jackson’s incompetent reign? (To quote Inigo Montoya: “[we] keep using that word. I do not think it means a what you think ita means.”:)

    *spends

  26. They took over a team with 31 wins, 20m of cap space

    Wait, the team they took over was a 31 win team with just $20M to spend and no clearly productive young players? Damn, the management that came before them must have sucked ass. I mean what were they even trying to do, get those guys into at least a 500% season so we could get some free space to rebuild or something?

  27. Even if you have faith in the Knicks management, if they don’t want to pay your client the max and another team with decent management is willing to do so, why wouldn’t you try to get your client traded? Kristaps is still very young and injury prone-he should go where he gets the most guaranteed money.

  28. Yeah man Phil left the Knicks in pretty sweet shape when he left, you gotta admit. Only true incompetents could fail to build an immediate winner on that great foundation of $60M worth of decrepit Joakim Noah, Carmelo Anthony and Courtney Lee. Just think of all that pinch post passing. Plus Lance Thomas was under contract, and electrifying rookie sensation Frank Ntilikina was in the fold! How did these guys manage to screw up such a great situation?

  29. The thing that annoys me about “oh, the Knicks had a garbage team around Porzingis”, is that fucking Porzingis is somehow not seen as part of why the team was garbage in the first place. It seems like people are talking about Anthony Davis or James Harden or anyone who actually produces at a superstar level and is held down by bad teammates.

    Porzingis was about as much held down by his teammates as he didn’t do much to help the situation himself. If you want to get treated like a superstar and have a good team built around you as the focal point, then guess what, you should play like a superstar consistently.

    If Zach LaVine or Devin Booker came out and said that they can’t win because they have no decent teammates we would all laugh it off, but with Porzingis there’s this lingering idea that he was right to be pissed about the team being bad when his production was never up to par AND he got injured. What the hell did he want the Knicks to do, build a good team around him this year, when he wasn’t going to play a single minute? Waste the opportunity to try to get Zion to fill the roster with average dudes to win 30 games? That would make him want to stay?

    Fuck Kristaps and fuck Janis, as much as I don’t trust Perry and Mills at all, I’m very happy that we don’t have to deal with this garbage anymore and that Porzingis is someone else’s problem to figure out now. The team is finally in position to truly rebuild, let’s just do that.

  30. I was looking at the Blazers roster and Meyers Leonard has really put up a 67 TS% over his last thousand minutes of NBA basketball.

  31. I respect Strat’s nostalgic adherence to a romantic past that never existed against all common sense and evidence. I am willing to bet dollars to donuts he’s into the MAGA movement.

  32. I was looking at the Blazers roster and Meyers Leonard has really put up a 67 TS% over his last thousand minutes of NBA basketball.

    He is actually one of the 10 qualifying players in NBA’s history to post a 50/40/90 season. The others are: Larry Bird, Mark Price, Reggie Miller, Steve Kerr, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Jose Calderon, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry.

    And there’s another guy who could add his name to that list this year: Malcolm Brogdon.

  33. I just pray that we land that top pick and get Zion. If we do, everything will fall into place for us. Getting KD and Kyrie will be much easier if we land Zion. The hype will be unbelievable with him and it will allow us to compete now with two superstars while also still building for the future with Zion. And if we do land Zion, we can keep all of our young players and have a great team. You tell me this doesn’t make you salivate?

    Kyrie/DSJ
    Dotson/Frank/Trier
    KD/Knox
    Zion/
    Mitch/Kornet

    Maybe Deandre stays if he knows he can hitch his ride with KD, Kyrie and Zion.

    The next year we’d have the full mid level and another first round pick.

    I know its slim odds. But fuck it…we’ve done everything (mostly) right this year. We tanked. We played the young players. We got rid of the bad veteran contracts. We took the risk of getting lambasted in the media for trading away our best player bc he just wasn’t worth a max contract. I know people still don’t trust Mills and Perry and of course they’ve made mistakes bc no management is perfect. But big picture they’ve gotten more things right this year than wrong and we are set up to potentially hit a grand slam this summer but for me it all starts with getting Zion. We get him and we got him and Mitch locked into rookie contracts plus some other young players that can improve. I think that’s a better young core than what the lakers had to get Lebron and we have the cap space to get a guy who is as good as Lebron plus another max player.

    14 percent. If someone told you you had a 14 percent chance to win the powerball if you bought a lottery ticket…would you take those odds. I sure as fuck would.

  34. My fear is that Durant would rather play with AD than with Zion, who looks amazing but will still have a learning curve. And that we’d trade both the pick and Mitch to get AD. Knicks gonna Knick.

  35. I mean, I really would like to keep Mitch, but in terms of bad outcomes trading him for one of the best players in the NBA would be one of the least Knicksy ones.

  36. I’m perfectly happy with Perry, don’t trust Mills at all.

    We can disagree on some of the minor moves (ie. trading Willy for 2 CHA 2nds which actually might be really good), sending out a 2nd for Mudiay, but even if you don’t like these moves, they’re not that bad.

    We can say they shouldn’t have drafted Knox, who really does look terrible even if he sometimes does stuff that raises the eyebrows in a good way. That said, other than SGA, it’s hard to know who else might have been considered at #9 that they should obviously have taken. Huerter looks pretty nice right now, and Okogie blocked the sh*t out of Harden last night, but I think it’s a reach to say they should’ve drafted those guys at 9.

    Perry HAS made a lot of really good moves.
    – The Carmelo trade return wasn’t exactly inspiring at the time, but three teams since that trade have had to get rid of him for less than nothing.
    – And of course that 2nd round pick has turned into Mitchell Robinson, and as a bonus, he signed Trier as an UDFA. Those are unequivocal wins, with Robinson looking like a potential star and Trier looking at least like a rotation player. Robinson’s contract is an absolute bargain, and was so good that Mitch ended up firing his agent after.
    – Trey Burke, picked up for nothing, given as part of KP trade only because he was signed to a 2nd year nonguaranteed contract
    – Kadeem Allen looks like a rotation piece going forward
    – Dotson might be a rotation piece – Perry signed him to a team friendly 3 year contract
    – Perry didn’t get trapped into maxing KP or losing leverage
    – the KP trade value looks like the Knicks did a good job, regardless of how we got to there in the first place (KP upset, bloated THJ + Lee contracts, none of which can realistically be blamed on Perry).
    – NYK has now cap space, young players on good contracts, and 7 1sts in the next 5 years.

    He’s not infallible but i think he’s been more than ok.

  37. Maybe but if the Knicks do land the top pick in a draft where Zion is the clear top pick and one of the best prospects in a long time it’s gonna be very hard for Dolan to turn down that media hype. Zion in the mecca of basketball is too good of a marketing campaign to pass up. And yes there will still be a learning curve for him but KD has the skills to age nicely. The argument could be made with him that coming herewith Zion would extend his window to win it all bc as Zion gets better KD’s work load can decrease. Plus with two max players we’d have the mid level the next year and all our picks plus the Mavericks picks to fuck with.

  38. I don’t mean this to defend Phil Jackson because he was fucking terrible and I’m glad he’s gone. But the instant he was fired and Mills took over he felt the best thing to do in that situation was give $72M to Tim fucking Hardaway Jr.

  39. I’m the only guy telling the truth. You are allowed to remain in denial and delusional.

    Phil inherited a team of pinheads, malcontents, and ass wipes with no first round picks for 2 of his first 3 years. He was given a bad team in a terrible position.

    He got rid of the idiots, but no one was getting much for JR Smith, Ray Felton, and Iman Shumpert at that time.

    He also traded Chandler (who wanted out). He got a couple of 2nd round picks, a former lottery pick, & another malcontent. None of it worked out. That was a fail. Despite the down year and injuries, Chandler was still worth more than that and he came up with nothing.

    That forced him to blow it up.

    He landed KP in the one year he did have a pick.

    From there the plan was to build a team using a combination of veterans and any young players he could pick up in the 2nd round (no 1st round pick the following year) until we got to the point where we had all our first round picks and flexible cap space.

    He then made a BIG mistake giving Noah 4 years (who is playing VERY well in Memphis now that he’s in shape and being given a chance to play) and another giving Melo a NTC.

    Despite several significant mistakes and only 1 pick in 3 years, when it was over, he left a team with a few good young pieces, 20 million of cap space, and all its 1st round picks. Warts and all he didn’t do a terrible job except in the minds of people that think the goal is to be as bad as possible for as long as possible like the 76ers (who are only where they are because of repeated injuries to their few successful draft picks that allowed them to stay at the top of the lottery)

    Current management took the position he left them, blew the 20m of cap space, added some garbage young players, made KP want to leave, and turned us into one of the worst teams in NBA history in 2 years – all by accident.

    But we do have a ton of cap space and given their record of genius using that I’m sure it’s all going to work out fine.

  40. I don’t mean this to defend Phil Jackson because he was fucking terrible and I’m glad he’s gone. But the instant he was fired and Mills took over he felt the best thing to do in that situation was give $72M to Tim fucking Hardaway Jr.

    I don’t think you’ll find a single commenter here who will defend Steve Mills. He’s obviously inept at everything but appeasing James Dolan. Perry (who seems to be making all the basketball decisions these days) is the question. He’s made some good moves (Mitch) and some questionable ones (Knox). This summer will show us what he is, for good or ill.

  41. I hate telling the truth. I know most of you share that feeling.

    I kid, I kid Strat. I did predict that Noah had more left in the tank. It appears he does. Obviously, for another team, should have locked that in with my other prediction.

    Wow, amazing game by Siakam. That guy has made the leap. I remember watching him last year and thinking he was on the rise but this is a real explosion.

    No way Toronto could have traded him with a playoff run on tap.

  42. Strat, you really are living in some sort of Phil Jackson fantasy-land.

    He gave out two franchise crippling contracts in Noah (whose contract was immediately the worst in the NBA the second it was signed) and Courtney Lee.

    he signed Melo to basically a mega-max with a no trade clause, which completely hamstrung the team.

    sure, maybe the Knicks didn’t do a great job spending money this past summer, but let’s never forget that Phil blew 25% of the salary cap on Arron Afflalo, Derrick Williams, and Robin Lopez.

    he hired Hornacek, who clearly had a bad relationship with KP.

    he in some combo with Hornacek fired Josh Longstaff, which further pissed KP off

    KP was so disenchanted with Phil that he skipped the exit meeting

    oh wait sorry he also hired Derek Fisher who also was terrible.

    oh wait – while you are roasting Perry for drafting Knox (as if all GMs don’t have some misses), somehow you forgot that Phil drafted Cleanthony Early ahead of Jokic, Jerami Grant, and Spencer Dinwiddie. I mean of all people, Jokic has a big butt and knows how to play, and may be the best big man post-passer ever– how did Phil miss that?

    It is no coincidence that players and GMs across the league are looking at the Knicks situation this summer with some envy. 7 1sts coming up in 5 years. a full complement of 2nd round picks (never mind that Phil gave away 2nd round picks like halloween candy — 2018 2nd + 2019 swap to get rid of Travis Outlaw anyone?), 70+MM in cap space.

    I mean just look at the list of Phil’s transactions and tell me again that he did a good job.

    Now Perry has a big job ahead of him, but he’s completely cleaned house and has a blank slate + blank checkbook + draft picks to work with.

  43. One of the funniest Strat things is, depending on how he’s feeling that day, Phil Jackson is either a genius for drafting KP, or he’s a genius for realizing KP is injury prone/not that good and trying to trade him (for Devin Booker and Lauri Markkanen, you know, because he loved those two way players).

  44. @45

    Despite several significant mistakes and only 1 pick in 3 years, when it was over, he left a team with a few good young pieces, 20 million of cap space, and all its 1st round picks. Warts and all he didn’t do a terrible job except in the minds of people that think the goal is to be as bad as possible for as long as possible like the 76ers (who are only where they are because of repeated injuries to their few successful draft picks that allowed them to stay at the top of the lottery)

    He also left us with the Lee and Noah contracts, no head coach continuity, the Melodrama mess he created with the NTC, and was actually going to resign Derrick Rose. I will grant that he was right to see the handwriting on the wall with KP and was smart to inquire about trading him even if I wasn’t too thrilled with the haul he was looking for (Devin Booker is a horizontal move).

  45. The only reason Phil put KP on the block was that he got his feelings hurt by skipping the exit interview. No reason to believe that it was him predicting KP tearing his ACL.

  46. oh wait – while you are roasting Perry for drafting Knox (as if all GMs don’t have some misses), somehow you forgot that Phil drafted Cleanthony Early ahead of Jokic, Jerami Grant, and Spencer Dinwiddie. I mean of all people, Jokic has a big butt and knows how to play, and may be the best big man post-passer ever– how did Phil miss that?

    In fairness to Phil, lots of teams passed on Jokic. He came out of nowhere to become arguably the greatest 2nd round draft pick in NBA history. So while it is true Mills not choosing a Miles Bridges or Shai Gilgeous Alexander with the 9th pick wasn’t as big a loss for our team, those guys were actually on teams’ radars. We ended up picking Knox over them because of a 3 on 3 pickup basketball game. By that standard of evaluation they’d have overlooked a player like Jokic as well.

  47. @53

    Even so, Phil rightly saw the handwriting on the wall. He foresaw what a nightmare KP and Janis would be to deal with and tried to get rid of them sooner rather than later. If we’re going to give Perry credit for doing the same then Phil deserves it as well.

  48. Everybody is a delusional idiot except Strat.

    I didn’t say you were idiots.

    I said you guys are in denial.

    We blew 20m of cap space, drove KP out because we are so bad, drafted Knox, have one of the worst teams in NBA history, and are about to try to use our cap space to land a 31 year old veteran (albeit great player). That’s a path we’ve tried more than once before and failed at because the team wasn’t good enough. Now we are 10x worse. I thought we were supposed to be going young and building via draft until we were good enough to add quality free agents?

    Yet somehow this all gets a pass because Phil wasn’t that good either?

    It’s not about Phil and his mistakes. He wasn’t good but he left us in a decent position.

    I know.

    Being bad = good even though many teams fail badly for a very long time taking this path and the only reason the 76ers succeeded is an injury model that can’t be duplicated.

    There are stars available every year in trades and free agency. We have a great market that has multiple reasons for attracting them (assuming the team is good enough to get them).

    We should have continued to try to get better using a combination of draft picks, free agency, and trades to slowly improve and build. Instead we are back in the bowels of the NBA like we were 3 years ago – this time praying for a 31 year old miracle to pick us in free agency. It’s either that or 6-7 more years

    That’s the non-denial truth.

  49. I hate Phil apologism, he was every bit as bad as Scott Layden and I never see anyone defending him. Phil took over a bad Knicks team that one 37 games the year before and stated that his goal was to make the playoffs and that would attract good players to sign here. Instead, he traded our best player for Jose Calderon and two 2nd round picks, traded a 2nd round pick to save Dolan some money and create a roster spot for the immortal Travis Wear, and created the single worst team in Knicks history. Oh, and he gave Melo a virtual max deal with a no-trade clause, a deal that was roundly ridiculed here and in the smarter corners of Knicks fandom.

    After all that, instead of learning his lesson on how good this team to be he doubled-down on his plan and spent a shit-load of money on mediocre veteran free agents instead of doing something like this. Because veteran free agents + triangle magic was going to make us just good enough to make the playoffs and being the 8th seed in the East was the magic ticket to convincing good players to sign here.

  50. @57

    How is any of that different from Phil’s plan? He built the worst team in Knicks history and then hoped that someone would sign here to drag us to the promised land. No one here is defending Steve Mills and I think the general consensus on Perry is wait and see. But you’re out here defending Phil for doing the same fucking thing that you’re bashing Mills/Perry for.

  51. We blew 20m of cap space

    That’s less than 20% of the cap. What happened to the other ~$85M? What players/assets was it spent on?

    Oh, right, those totally anomalous, very minor “mistakes” that just so happened to preclude us from being a remotely intriguing team for Phil’s entire tenure.

    We should have continued to try to get better using a combination of draft picks, free agency, and trades to slowly improve and build.

    I regularly post the “get those guys to 500%” quote because I think it’s so obviously incoherent as a team-building strategy (and as an English sentence) that no one could possibly defend it, but I guess that’s literally Strat’s plan; spend as much money as possible on veterans that will get you to .500 (Phil Jackson was unable to hit his incredibly lofty goal), slap the triangle on them, and sit back and watch the magic happen!

  52. There’s a difference between a true, decks-clearing rebuild, the kind many of us here have been yelling and screaming about for many years, and the fake accidental incompetent rebuild that Phil attempted. Phil’s hubris was so out of control he thought he could turn Carmelo Anthony into Michael Jordan just by triangulizing him, and was so utterly delusional that he thought the triangle offense itself would lure premium free agents. At a time when the league was irrevocably moving towards offenses built around the three point shot, Phil asked the timeless question “How’s it goink?” He was going to rebuild his own triangulated way and he was going to prove to everybody that shooting lots of threes was like totes dumb and he was going to bring back the glory days of pinch post passing and show everybody that he’s smarter than everybody else. It failed spectacularly, cosmically, hilariously.

    His attempts to change the character of the team and bring in high-quality individuals involved bringing in Derrick “I Don’t Know What Consent Means, No Really My Vocabulary Is Very Small” Rose and Joakim “I’m Gonna Have A Punch-Up With The Coach” Noah and by the end of his brief tenure the Knicks remained a toxic cesspool. One time Derrick Rose just disappeared and everybody thought he might be dead but he was back on the floor in the next game so that was fun.

    I don’t doubt for a minute that Mills and Perry might fuck up this offseason. Hell, they probably will. But I do know for goddamn sure that Phil Jackson was a joke, and that there was very good reason he was laughed out of town.

    But at least we still have our second round pick this year, that’s gonna be something like #31 overall, pretty valuable. Oh wait, no we don’t. Phil traded it away to dump a $3M contract because he really needed Travis “The Wear Bear” Wear on his 17-win roster and he wanted to save Guitar Jimmy a few bucks.

  53. Also, not for nothing but the year after the 54 win season we lost a ton of close games. Chandler missed several months with a broken leg. Phil took over as GM a little more than halfway through that season. The team actually ended strongly and missed the playoffs by one game. Woodson even started incorporating some triangle into the team’s offense. A strong argument could be made that if you were going to resign Melo then maybe keeping that team together was the way to go. Chandler had a pretty great bounce back year the next season in Dallas. At the very least Phil should have really blown it up and started over and traded both Chandler and Melo. The offer was there from Chicago to get back some picks in exchange for taking on Boozer. The team probably would have been about the same (17 wins) and probably still would have nabbed Zinger in the draft. With some extra picks from Chicago and Boozer’s expiring, he could have rebuilt a team around Zinger with maybe the Rolo signing (which I loved) still being a part of his plan. And we all shitted on Woodson that year after the 54 win season but he’s the best Knicks coach record wise we’ve had this century. And he also did a slow rebuild in Atlanta so he might have been a decent coach to keep for a complete tear down.

    At the very least he should have not gone all in on Rose and Noah. Staying the course would have probably meant Melo wanted out sooner. But that’s all history. Lets forget about it. For all the bad things that happened bc of Melo, his trade out netted us Mitch, which is an amazing thing.

    And yeah, Mills is dumb. But guess what…Hardaway is gone now. So is Lee. We have cap space, young players and picks going forward. 7 first round picks potentially over the next 5 years. This is the bottom, the darkest night before the dawn.

  54. But at least we still have our second round pick this year, that’s gonna be something like #31 overall, pretty valuable. Oh wait, no we don’t. Phil traded it away to dump a $3M contract because he really needed Travis “The Wear Bear” Wear on his 17-win roster and he wanted to save Guitar Jimmy a few bucks.

    I mean, you can always buy a second round pick. Amirite?

  55. Rookie Leaders in WS/48 (minimum 700 minutes played)

    Mitchell Robinson .198
    DeAndre Ayton .134
    Luka Doncic .118
    Jarren Jackson .110
    Marvin Bagely/Landry Shamet .104

    Rookie Leaders BPM (minimum 700 minutes played)

    Mitchell Robinson 6.0
    Luka Doncic 3.8
    DeAndre Ayton 0.8
    Jarren Jackson 0.3
    Mikal Bridges 0.2

    Rookie Leaders VORP (minimum 700 minutes played)

    Luka Doncic 2.6
    Mitchell Robinson 1.5
    DeAndre Ayton 1.1
    Jaren Jackson/Mikal Bridges 0.9

  56. Damn, but if we still had Joakim Noah, this team would be in such a great shape.

    You all can waste your time arguing against someone who 100% believes he knows the truth, I just won’t. There’s overwhelming evidence that Phil Jackson was absolutely terrible and had no idea what he was doing, If you can’t see that your opinions on the management aspect of a basketball team have literally zero value.

    The sorry state of this franchise is a collective effort that has spanned multiple front offices and has Dolan as the centerpiece of the shit soufflé. But to argue that Phil Jackson somehow did anything other than just add more shit on top of the pile is simply bad faith.

  57. There are two kinds of discussions I can’t walk away from, that are like catnip to me.

    One goes like this: “Paula Deen/Duck Dynasty Guy/Whoever Else Said Some Racist Thing is the victim of censorship because s/he lost his TV show!” Usually it’s some sort of libertarian saying this, which makes it doubly fun, because they are failing to realize that their beloved invisible hand is the thing slapping Paula Deen in the face. I start rubbing up against stuff like a cat when somebody starts making this argument.

    The other one goes like this: “Phil Jackson wasn’t that bad!”

  58. Imagine if a libertarian made the argument that Phil’s “posse” comment about Lebron’s manager wasn’t that bad. You’d be in catnip heaven.

  59. Phil Jackson was truly horrible and there is no defending him, but can we please stop with the if only we had left cap space open then we would have gotten a deal like the Kings gave the Sixers. That was a one of a kind type opportunity that there is no evidence we would have had any shot at it. Most likely the best opportunity would have been something like the late 1st Brooklyn got for taking two years of Carroll. That would have been great and it would have been much better than one year of Williams and Afflalo but let’s not hand wring about lost opportunities that we were never in the running for anyway.

    We don’t need to fantasize about the opportunities Phil might have missed when there are plenty of concrete mistakes we can crucify him for.

  60. Man, if we could get a late first for Frank in this draft, I’d take it. We’re going to need bodies that can actually produce, not guys that MIGHT – in about 3 years – become below average. Then grab a high-floor guy like Grant Williams at a cheaper price.

  61. Phil Jackson was truly horrible and there is no defending him, but can we please stop with the if only we had left cap space open then we would have gotten a deal like the Kings gave the Sixers. That was a one of a kind type opportunity that there is no evidence we would have had any shot at it.

    I’m not sure how you can say this. Of course it’s possible that this was worked out completely privately between Hinkie and Divac, but we have no way of knowing and at the time Sacramento was being pretty open about their desire to chase free agents (they wanted to get those guys to 500%). All we know for sure is that we had the cap space necessary to facilitate the deal, and that we spent it on Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams (and gave them player options lol holy shit).

  62. All we know for sure is that we had the cap space necessary to facilitate the deal, and that we spent it on Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams

    It’s really important to have guards that can post up in the triangle. Apparently. So we really needed Afflalo to fill that key role. Apparently. This happened in 2015 when everybody else was figuring out you need to shoot lots of threes to compete.

    How’d that goink?

  63. One of the supposed benefits of bringing him Phil in as GM was that NBA players would want to play for the Knicks based on his reputation as a basketball genius and ringz.

    Instead, NBA players thought the triangle was a joke and that Phil was a dinosaur. No one wanted to play for this franchise during Phil’s tenure.

  64. Yeah, it seems quite unfounded to argue the opposite (that the Knicks could not have gotten in on that Sacramento deal). What would possibly be the reason why they couldn’t get in on that deal? They had the same amount of cap room, so why would Sacramento prefer using Philly’s cap space instead of the Knicks’?

  65. One of the things I liked best about Phil’s tenure, from a discussion standpoint, is that he was very open about his plans, so there’s no, “Well, he did X, but it was because of a secret reason Y that was somehow not dumb.” No, Phil flat out told us his dumb plans and they worked out poorly.

  66. That the Knicks tried to trade KP for Fox was old news, but that they were rebuffed on a Bagley deal was just revealed the other day (as well as Porzingis putting the Heat and the Raptors on the list of teams he wanted to be traded to).

  67. The Triangle thing was way overblown. Good teams in the NBA use triangle sets. Just ask The Warriors. But it was overblown partly because Phil made such a big deal out of it. If he had come on board and said I really want to implement a coherent system of basketball for this franchise and I would like elements of the triangle to be part of that system but we’re going to design a system that takes the best of the triangle but also fits with the modern NBA, that would have been fine. But he made such a big deal out of it. I actually think Fisher was well liked by the players. His second year as a coach, when Melo was “dad melo” and Porzingis was a rookie…I was fairly optimistic about how things were going. We were around 500, Melo was passing the ball well, Zinger was a revelation, Rolo was a nice addition. Affalo was dumb and so was the D Williams, but they were one year deals. Calderon was the most frustrating player to watch ever but I thought to myself…hey, we’re a competitive team, they’re playing together, Melo is being less selfish…this is fun! Then Melo hurt his ankle, the team lost a shit ton of games and Phil fired Fisher for suspect reasons. BEcause apparently running the triangle 40 percent of the time wasn’t enough and so he fired him for something that happened before the season started. To me that is when Phil really lost it.

  68. I’m kinda psyched about the team going forward. KP isn’t a max player in my opinion and it would have been ultra Knicksy to sign him to a max, hamstring our cap and prevent better players from signing here. If he does develop into a potent max worthy force, I’ll eat crow, but if Jowles doesn’t think so I don’t either.

    Brian Cronin, What do you think? Is there a chance KP makes us rue the day? I tend to think you don’t give max money on faith… I haven’t seen Mike K’s take either. Did he weigh in?

    Getting rid of Courtney Lee and TH2 is pure gold. 7 1rps in 5 years is very un-Knicksy.

    Mitch and Trier soften the blow of the awful Knox and Frank picks. Those guys may have trade value to someone stupid as well.

    It’s all good going forward. Happy with Scott Perry. Just keep the money in your pocket if you can’t get a true force that genuinely moves the needle.

  69. Phil’s bad personnel decisions were always motivated by “good for the triangle” type thinking. We needed Noah because passing out of the pinch post is so important to the triangle. We needed Afflalo because a two-guard who can post up is so important to the triangle. We needed Derrick Rose because the triangle wasn’t working because we had no penetrating guards. Jose Calderon, good for the triangle. Frank Ntilikina, good “triangle point guard.” Instead of “is this guy a good player” the question was “can this guy play the triangle” and it was a fatal question. We ended up with a lot of shitty players because they supposedly had some secret triangle sauce inside them.

    Mediocre players were supposed to become good because of the triangle and good players were supposed to become great. Free agents would want to come here because of triangle. If the team was struggling, it was because they weren’t triangling hard enough. Triangle, triangle, triangle, triangle, triangle, triangle. Phil was going to cram that shit down the league’s throat because that’s like his thing, and he had no idea how to do anything else.

    He was old and lazy, and the game had passed him by.

  70. Yeah, we make a big deal out of the triangle because Phil freaking Jackson made a big deal out of the triangle. It’s his fault for believing he had some sort of random magic that could turn a team around by installing a system that only worked with all time greats running it.

    He thought it wasn’t because of the all time greats, and that he was the all time great necessary. He was wrong, obviously, and we’re paying the price for this bullshit to this day.

  71. Yeah, we make a big deal out of the triangle because Phil freaking Jackson made a big deal out of the triangle. It’s his fault for believing he had some sort of random magic that could turn a team around by installing a system that only worked with all time greats running it.

    He thought it wasn’t because of the all time greats, and that he was the all time great necessary. He was wrong, obviously, and we’re paying the price for this bullshit to this day.

    While I agree that he was way too obsessed with the triangle, I think that their biggest problem was Phil’s impatience. A complete tear down where the team played the triangle probably wouldn’t be the worst. Fizdalde doesn’t seem to run any particular offense and we’re still optimistic, ya know?

  72. While I agree that he was way too obsessed with the triangle, I think that their biggest problem was Phil’s impatience.

    Sure, this was a big part of it too. He was old when he came here and he wanted to prove what a genius he was right away. He was not gonna do a long-term or medium-term rebuild.

    That team he inherited, the Stat-Melo-Woodson team, was a really good candidate for a tear down and rebuild. There were some veterans on the roster that still had value and the bad contracts all only had a year or two left on them. The team didn’t have first round picks in 2014 or 2016, which was a problem, but it was a problem that could have been remedied by flipping some of the vets for assets, signing and trading Melo, blah blah blah. He didn’t do that.

  73. If they were engaging Sacramento they should have gone for my man Buddy Hield. That guy’s Bref page is turning into pornhub. 45% from 3. .604 TS% on 18 FGA per 36. Dude is crushing it. I hope he has brother/agent that convinces him to threaten to take the QO.

  74. That team he inherited, the Stat-Melo-Woodson team, was a really good candidate for a tear down and rebuild.

    It screamed for a tear down and rebuild. You could have easily gotten three first round picks for Melo and Chandler.

  75. That team he inherited, the Stat-Melo-Woodson team, was a really good candidate for a tear down and rebuild.

    It screamed for a tear down and rebuild. You could have easily gotten three first round picks for Melo and Chandler.

    In a nutshell. It was so clearly a train wreck and it was so clear how to avoid it. And instead Phil ran us right off a cliff.

  76. Frank Ntilikina, good “triangle point guard.” Instead of “is this guy a good player” the question was “can this guy play the triangle” and it was a fatal question.

    This was overblown as well. Clarence Gaines, the one who spearheaded the Ntilikina pick (not Phil), mentioned that he chose Frank not because he could play in the Triangle but because he could play in any system.

  77. Here’s the long list of guys who’ve averaged 4.2 blks and 1.4 stls per 36: http://bkref.com/tiny/Vj4FQ
    Is Mitch untouchable? He’s making 5m over the next three seasons- if he shows he can play 30 minutes a night he might be the best value in the NBA.

  78. In a nutshell. It was so clearly a train wreck and it was so clear how to avoid it. And instead Phil ran us right off a cliff.

    I’ll give Phil this much, I bet most other GMs that Dolan would have hired would have been just as dumb about doing a teardown.

  79. Clarence Gaines, the one who spearheaded the Ntilikina pick (not Phil), mentioned that he chose Frank not because he could play in the Triangle but because he could play in any system.

    Which, in hindsight, might be even more embarrassing than the triangle justification.

  80. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

    Phil spent the better part of time here pleading with the media to stop focusing on the “triangle” and to instead focus on the basic basketball principles of player movement and ball movement he was trying to incorporate.

    Even Hornacek said the other day that Phil was fully aware that the game was changing. They were trying to adapt the triangle to involve more running and shooting 3s, but they didn’t have the time to do so because it takes a few years for players to learn all the reads.

    He was basically trying to what Popovich and Kerr are doing right now. Both teams do not run PG dominant pick and roll basketball. They run aspects of the triangle using player movement, ball movement, back cuts etc.. However, in Kerr’s case he has the best 3 point shooting team in history so he’s certainly going to take advantage of that and in Pop’s case he has a couple of good mid range players so he does a lot of that.

  81. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

    This was overblown as well. Clarence Gaines, the one who spearheaded the Ntilikina pick (not Phil), mentioned that he chose Frank not because he could play in the Triangle but because he could play in any system.

    I think what he said was that if you can play in the triangle you can play in any system but if you can play in other systems that does not mean you can’t necessarily play in the triangle. The implication was that basketball IQ and making reads matter in the triangle, but he never actually said that.

    I read everything Gaines says and I’m pretty convinced he’s a brilliant basketball mind (as well as being a terrific human being). He still likes Frank and thinks he’s eventually going to contribute to winning basketball as a “guard”. He does not use the terms PG or SG very often.

  82. They were trying to adapt the triangle to involve more running and shooting 3s, but they didn’t have the time to do so because it takes a few years for players to learn all the reads.

    It takes A FEW YEARS for players to learn all the reads. Great system!

    Which is why it made a lot of sense to completely turn the roster over every season. We’re in year three, guys, but none of the guys from year one are here, so maybe by year five we’ll have this thing figured out unless the guys from year three are gone, in which case…

  83. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

    There’s a difference between a true, decks-clearing rebuild, the kind many of us here have been yelling and screaming about for many years, and the fake accidental incompetent rebuild that Phil attempted.

    Here’s the difference.

    The Knicks started out that year hoping to be competitive. They were terrible partly because Dalembert wasn’t working out, partly because Melo was playing hurt, and partly because Phil brought in terrible players to replace JR Smith, Felton, and Shumpert. That was all on Phil. He cleaned house of trash personalities and players that wanted out, but brought back nothing of quality.

    Around mid season Phil realized the season was a bust.

    He sent Dalembert home, put Melo on ice to get surgery, and released Amare.

    He flat out said he was blowing it up and starting from scratch because his initial plan failed.

    It was a tank then and it’s still a tank. Everyone knew they were very high on Towns. The hope was to get Towns and rebuild from there, but not exclusively via draft. They screwed up the tank and wound up 4th, but that was the beginning of the rebuild.

    The only difference between what Phil was doing and what people around here want to do is that Phil remained open to using the draft, trades, free agency, veterans, young players etc.. and people here want a 76ers style mega tank (that unfortunately can’t be duplicated without a series of injuries).

    Well, guess what?

    We aren’t going to get what everyone here wants this time either.

    We just lost a major piece of the rebuild in KP and opened 2 max slots to bring in veterans (KD will be 31 and guys like Kemba, Kyrie, Butler, Kawhi are either not young or have injury issues ) that will in all likelihood want to move some of our draft picks and young players to add veteran role players to go along with them if they should choose to come.

  84. for those of you whom may not have a complete/comprehensive understanding of exactly what BPM is – hopefully this will make things much clearer:

    Raw BPM = a*ReMPG + b*ORB% + c*DRB% + d*STL% + e*BLK% + f*AST% – g*USG%*TO% +
    h*USG%*(1-TO%)*[2*(TS% – TmTS%) + i*AST% + j*(3PAr – Lg3PAr) – k] + l*sqrt(AST%*TRB%)

    for those of you who either fell asleep, or got a headache while looking at that –
    https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

    it’s going to take me months to semi-digest all of that…although it does help explain one aspect really well that had puzzled me – how do you account for the team’s performance into this individual metric:

    Note: For regular seasons before adjusted team offensive & defensive ratings are available (pre-1986), the team’s raw efficiency differential is adjusted for strength of schedule using the Simple Rating System‘s SOS term

    which then leads us to needing to understand what SOS means…man, the rabbit hole never ends…

  85. The only difference between what Phil was doing and what people around here want to do is that Phil remained open to using the draft

    He drafted Porzingis and a bunch of junk

    trades

    He made terrible trades

    free agency

    Signed terrible free agents

    veterans

    Brought in terrible veterans

    young players

    Well he did bring in Ron Baker and The Wear Bear so you got me there

  86. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

    It takes A FEW YEARS for players to learn all the reads. Great system!

    Which is why it made a lot of sense to completely turn the roster over every season. We’re in year three, guys, but none of the guys from year one are here, so maybe by year five we’ll have this thing figured out unless the guys from year three are gone, in which case…

    So what you are saying is that you have the stomach for a 7-10 year 76ers style mega tank without the injuries helping out but you don’t have the stomach to slowly accumulate draft picks and veterans that fit and learn the system over a period of years?

    I get it.

    Phil did it = always bad no matter what here

    I’ve accepted that, but I wish one of you would at least admit that Mills is wildly incompetent (Hardaway and Baker) and Perry:

    1. Gave up an asset for Mudiay.
    2. Used 6.5M to sign Hezonja.
    3. Allowed a productive player like KOQ to walk for nothing.
    4. Drafted Knox instead of Bridges
    5. 1-4 contributed to KP wanting out because the team UNINTENTIONALLY got worse instead of better

  87. Amazon announced it had cancelled its extremely controversial plan to build a new headquarters in New York City. Good for the people of Queens.

    New York is giving Amazon a tax subsidy of $48,000 per job plus a straight $325 million cash grant. Plus other incentives. https://t.co/W66JpD5L1b— Matt Stoller (@matthewstoller) November 13, 2018

  88. No one here has ever said not to sign free agents or not to make trades. What people here do say is don’t sign or trade for mediocre veterans with long contracts. Mediocre veterans only marginally improve the team’s talent level, just enough to screw up our draft position, while not being good enough to actually improve the team. You’re trying to conflate signing Arron Afflalo with signing Kevin Durant and saying those are basically the same thing.

  89. Mills is clearly an idiot. Jury is still out on Perry, but I dunno, Dolan’s Razor says he’s probably an idiot too. The Knox picked sucked and I hated it at the time, the Mudiay trade sucked and Hezonja was pointless.

    Didn’t nobody want KOQ, who is a DNP-CD machine for the Pacers and probably a waste of $4.4M.

    The Porzingis trade I like, after initially panning it. The Knicks have seven 1RPs coming in the next five years and no terrible contracts on the books. They’ll probably add some terrible contracts this offseason because Knicks, but as of now they’re where I wanted them to be all along.

    Also, the Perry regime drafted Mitchell Robinson.

  90. If Knox was drafted using the 2nd round pick we used for Mitch and Mitch was drafted with the number 9 pick and they were playing exactly the same as they are now, would you be mad that we drafted Knox?

    All picks are risky. That’s why its called a LOTTERY. The 9th pick, even though its still in the top ten and still a “lottery” pick is not a sure bet to be a great player. Its a numbers game as much as anything.

    Perception is a bitch to people. If you admit that mitch is a home run, Trier is a single and Knox is a strike out, that’s still a 666 batting average with a home run and a base hit. Where they were drafted shouldn’t matter to people. You’re focusing on all the bad shit while ignoring the fact that we have 70 million in cap this year, 2 extra first rounders in the next 5 years, got a stud in the draft this year and found a better than expected player after the draft in trier. Plus KNOX IS NOT A FUCKING BUST. He’s a rookie!

    So what Mario didn’t pan out. Its a one year deal. Vonleh did turn out well. Are you now mad we didn’t lock him up for multiple years? Is Perry supposed to have a crystal ball with every reclamation project? He brought in a bunch of reclamation projects…if one of them works out that’s a bonus extra young player we got.

    The nitpicking is ridiculous.

  91. All picks are risky. That’s why its called a LOTTERY.

    It’s called a lottery because they hold a lottery to determine who gets the picks. It has nothing to do with the risk on the picks. I’m actually kind of flabbergasted that you just tried to make that point.

    If Knox was drafted using the 2nd round pick we used for Mitch and Mitch was drafted with the number 9 pick and they were playing exactly the same as they are now, would you be mad that we drafted Knox?

    So what Mario didn’t pan out. Its a one year deal. Vonleh did turn out well. Are you now mad we didn’t lock him up for multiple years? Is Perry supposed to have a crystal ball with every reclamation project? He brought in a bunch of reclamation projects…if one of them works out that’s a bonus extra young player we got.

    Please google “opportunity cost.”

  92. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

    He drafted Porzingis and a bunch of junk

    Totally honest here.

    IMO, the best recent NY players for a rebuild right now would be Robinson, KP, Vonleh, Kornet, Frank, and Dotson. They are the only players that can defend and either can or have a chance to do something worthwhile enough on offense to be good or better players. 4 of the 6 are Phil/Gaines guys.

    I’d still like to have O’Quinn and to a lesser extent Willy (or at least get something I want back). Both Phil guys.

    It’s a shame Phil didn’t make the selection this year because I’d bet anything it would not have been Knox (most likely Mikal Bridges because he defends)

    It’s also a shame he didn’t have those other 2 1st round picks or we’d be way further along.

    I will give you all the obvious stuff like overpaying for Noah and Lee, rolling over cap space with Afflalo and Williams, the NTC for Melo. He did a lot of dumb ass stuff and wasted some time when free agents didn’t want to come to out shitty team.

    But I’ll take his young players over the no defense Mudiay, Burke, Knox, Hezonja, DSJ, and Trier.

    It’s an utter miracle of miracles that these guys came up with a really good player like Robinson.

  93. What you guys fail to understand is that in the NBA every move is CONTEXTUAL, not isolated. Players have a cost associated to them, roster slots, cap space, minutes they play, they were drafted instead of somebody else, they were developed instead of somebody else, etc.

    I would have been fine if Knox was drafted 49th, but he was drafted 9th instead of a bunch of other much more promising guys. I would have no issues if we signed Melo as a free agent for 10 million a year and he played like he did. But in the NBA, every bad move you do is directly related to what else you could have done with the resources available at the time.

    So while some stuff matters less, let’s say Hezonja getting minutes as the 10th guy on a tanking team, some stuff matters a lot, like giving Joakim Noah a huge contract, or drafting Ntilikina or Knox in the lottery, or re-signing Melo to a mega max he never came close to deserve. Bad moves never exist in a vacuum, and people get annoyed because we, fucking random people on a website, could see that those moves were shit the moment they happened, but the genius basketball minds in control did not.

    So yeah, stop apologizing for terrible moves. They were terrible.

  94. So what you are saying is that you have the stomach for a 7-10 year 76ers style mega tank without the injuries helping out but you don’t have the stomach to slowly accumulate draft picks and veterans that fit and learn the system over a period of years?

    You’ve really gone off the rails here. The first year the Sixers punted on winning meaningless games in the present in order to stockpile assets for the future was 2013-2014. In 2017-2018 they won 52 games. So it took four seasons, and that’s with ownership overruling Hinkie on the Okafor pick, and Colangelo coming in and almost immediately screwing everything up (Fultz trade, Noel sell-low).

    You know what the biggest problem with a “slowly accumulate draft picks and veterans that fit and learn the system over a period of years” plan is? The human aging process. Did you know that as humans get older, their athletic abilities start to deteriorate? Let me give you an example; if a basketball team signs Courtney Lee to a four year contract when he’s 31, they are extremely likely to see his production dip well before the end of that contract. This is perfectly tolerable if Courtney Lee is rounding out the bench on a potential championship team, but if he’s joining a team that just won 32 games and didn’t add a top-10 player or two, well, that’s a hilariously moronic contract.

    Additionally, in what world did Phil Jackson “slowly accumulate draft picks and veterans that fit and learn the system over a period of years” anyway? The only instance I can think of in which he actually “accumulated” a draft pick, as opposed to just using the ones the NBA gives to every team, was when he traded Pablo. He surrendered an extremely valuable draft pick to keep Travis Wear.

    I’m also fairly certain that we were near the top of the league in any roster turnover metric during the Phil years.

  95. Brian, at the end of the day though, a pick is a pick and there is always the chance that they won’t turn out. Its a dumb argument because everyone here is basically saying Knox is a bust which is ridiculous when he’s a rookie and the youngest player in the draft. We had 2 picks. We hit an absolute home run with one of them. We picked up an undrafted guy who is pretty decent too. And then one guy who so far isn’t looking great but he’s super young.

    My point is that if every year The Knicks had 3 picks (let say picking up Trier undrafted is a pick for argument’s sake)…and you were told that every year, no matter where those 3 picks landed, one of those picks was as good as Mitch Robinson…I bet you would take those numbers every year and walk out of the NBA draft with a huge fucking smile on your face. If you were told that every year, one of those picks would turn into a player of Mitch’s caliber and potential and one of them would be as good as Trier, you’d also be happy. Its only the perception that Knox right now is a bust (and that’s all it is, perception because he is bad right now). Also the 9th pick isn’t that great of a lottery pick anyways.

  96. 1. Gave up an asset for Mudiay.
    2. Used 6.5M to sign Hezonja.
    3. Allowed a productive player like KOQ to walk for nothing.
    4. Drafted Knox instead of Bridges
    5. 1-4 contributed to KP wanting out because the team UNINTENTIONALLY got worse instead of better

    1-4 are definitely not great moves! Can you imagine if someone:

    1. Gave up a very valuable asset in order to keep Travis Wear
    2. Used $13M to sign Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams
    3. Traded prime Tyson Chandler for nothing
    4. Drafted Frank Ntilikina instead of someone who can dribble

    1-4 contributed to KP wanting out, so Phil tried to trade him for Devin Booker before getting mercifully shitcanned.

  97. The nitpicking is ridiculous.

    Should this blog be dedicated to celebrating all 1o of our wins?

  98. Brian, at the end of the day though, a pick is a pick and there is always the chance that they won’t turn out. Its a dumb argument because everyone here is basically saying Knox is a bust which is ridiculous when he’s a rookie and the youngest player in the draft. We had 2 picks. We hit an absolute home run with one of them. We picked up an undrafted guy who is pretty decent too. And then one guy who so far isn’t looking great but he’s super young.

    My point is that if every year The Knicks had 3 picks (let say picking up Trier undrafted is a pick for argument’s sake)…and you were told that every year, no matter where those 3 picks landed, one of those picks was as good as Mitch Robinson…I bet you would take those numbers every year and walk out of the NBA draft with a huge fucking smile on your face. If you were told that every year, one of those picks would turn into a player of Mitch’s caliber and potential and one of them would be as good as Trier, you’d also be happy. Its only the perception that Knox right now is a bust (and that’s all it is, perception because he is bad right now). Also the 9th pick isn’t that great of a lottery pick anyways.

    You should criticize teams when they make mistakes and compliment them when they make good moves.

    Robinson = amazing.

    Knox = not so good.

    Mario = not good

    Trier = good.

    It’s simple. Do something good, get complimented. Do something dumb, get criticized.

    Why you would want anything other than that is beyond me. Now, I get disputing stuff, like “I think Knox is good” or whatever, but not, “Okay, Knox isn’t good, but why be negative about it?”

  99. the real question is if mills signed hardaway to the scrubmax because phil always told him he was actually 6′ 8″, who gets the blame?

  100. can’t we just enjoy the irony of traveling to a tiny corner of the internet to complain about all the damn complaining

  101. Okay. Scott Perry converted Carmelo Anthony, a Phil Jackson mistake, into Mitchell Robinson.
    Robinson was then signed to a ridiculously team-friendly deal that leaves him under team control for pennies through the 2021-2022 season. They have three more seasons of him after this where he’s playing for less than $2M.

    He is already, at age 20, very productive, and he is improving as the season progresses. Since he came back from a few injuries, his defensive rebounding has improved and he is fouling less, so he is starting to round into more of a complete player. He is already one of the best shot blockers in the NBA and can score with sky-high efficiency, so it is not stretching it at all to think he’ll be a similar player in value to guys like Clint Capela, Tyson Chandler, Deandre Jordan, true two-way monsters who protect the rim, throw down dunks, rebound the ball and grind you out wins with their deadly efficiency.

    Years three and four of that contract are probably going to provide immense surplus value– Robinson will probably be playing 2,000 minutes and racking up .200 WS48 seasons by then. That is IMMENSELY valuable. That is how you win in this league, you get guys to outperform their contracts. The impact of Robinson in those seasons will be like the impact of having a megastar, because Robinson will probably be out-performing that contract by like $20M of production, if not more. In fact I’d say that’s a very conservative estimate.

    Kind of a better deal than signing Arron Afflalo, nahmsayin’? So maybe we shouldn’t really be giving Scott Perry a hard time.

  102. hehehehe, Knickerblogger is just bunch of fluffy clouds threatening rain while Strato “well, actually’s” us.

    5. 1-4 contributed to KP wanting out because the team UNINTENTIONALLY got worse instead of better

    I feel like you weren’t paying much attention, because it definitely was not unintentional. We very much got worse on purpose. That’s what ‘development year’ means. Did people not understand that’s what it meant? It’s actually kind of impressive that they’ve been so much better at losing than most of us were expecting at the start of the year.

    ALSO, big thing, if the minor fuckups that were your #’s 1 through 4 contributed to the Knicks not wasting a max contract on a guy who wasn’t worth a max contract then they really weren’t so bad after all.

  103. I went to look at the Suns roster on basketball reference because yeah, they do seem to be better than us, and oh boy…

    Jamal Crawford has a -7.5 BPM!!!! How is that number even possible, Knox has a -6.1!!!

    Their core in Ayton – Booker – Bridges – Warren isn’t horrible, but holy shit everybody else is absolutely terrible, except maybe Holmes and Oubre. I’d say that if they were in the east they’d probably have like 2 or 3 more wins, but that’s pretty optimistic.

  104. They have some decent young players on offense but they don’t have anyone on the roster who can play defense

  105. devin booker – I GOT PAID!!!

    i took a look at their roster – to be honest, i’m not that familiar with the names, i didn’t check their individual stats…but, i did look at their team stats:
    https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=W&dir=-1

    okay…that answers my question…just took a look at their available money for next year…wow, they’re in pretty bad shape…

  106. @123

    That’s easy. Crawford was never as good offensively as popular opinion said he was, he’s always been awful defensively, and he’s like 40 years old and has been totally washed for like 5 years.

  107. LOL, Jesus, MitchRob already has 5 rebounds and 2 blocked shots in just 5 minutes of play. This guy is insane.

  108. Brian’s probably out with his wife for Valentine’s Day.

    I understand, I’m on a date with Mitchell Robinson.

  109. Brian’s probably out with his wife for Valentine’s Day.

    On the night of a Knicks-Hawks game? What a good husband!

  110. Crawford was never as good offensively as popular opinion said he was, he’s always been awful defensively, and he’s like 40 years old and has been totally washed for like 5 years.

    40 years old??? – man, that’s just mean…he won’t be 39 until march :)

    vince has a BPM of -1.7 – not too bad for a guy 50 years old and still playing….

  111. some of us know how to scout. my date has mitch in the room.

    yeah well, i have an exciting night of watching some old clone wars episodes with a couple of buddies from work – jus cuz, that’s how i like to get down on valentine’s day…be jealous, be very jealous…

  112. Am I setting myself up for disappointment by getting a little excited about Kadeem Allen?

    Yes. Which franchise do you think this is?

  113. Will Mitch Robinson have a better career than KP?

    If he cuts down the fouls, stays healthy and gets some variety to his offensive game, then maybe.

  114. It felt like a post-trade win was coming. This group is a little friskier.

    Knox’s TS% is getting Ntilikinian. That dude is so bad.

    DAJ for 29 MP with Mitch getting 19 is no fun.

    I still like Kadeem.

  115. gonna love hearing Stratomatic tell us about Cam Reddish does a lot of stuff that cannot be captured by metrics for the next 2.5 seasons before he’s traded for 2 future 2nd rounders and Zach LaVine

  116. Kadeem Allen is 26 years old. He didn’t show much for Boston last year at 25 and was not especially good at Westchester this year. I’m happy for him that he’s getting an opportunity and playing well, but I wouldn’t bet on him being a keeper in NY. If he does turn out to be a rotation player in NY, then I’d have to say that giving up on Frank might be a tad premature since he’s 6 years younger.

  117. DAJ got the extra minutes to get the win. Last night Mitch Robinson got 28 and Jordan 20. If I was coaching a game, I would want Robinson to pay attention to how Jordan helped close the game. Replacing Kanter with Jordan will be huge for Robinson.

  118. It hasn’t been a lot of minutes but DSJ and Allen have looked pretty good when on the court at the same time. Wouldn’t mind seeing them start together after the break though with Frank and Mudiay coming back there’s going to be a logjam in the backcourt.

  119. Mitch shows as much or more potential on defense than KP (which is already enough to be excited). His ability to finish around the rim is as good as anyone I’ve ever seen. I’m not much of a football fan, but every once in awhile you see a receiver that is so long and athletic, if the quarterback just puts the ball in his area he can out jump the defense and come down with the ball. That’s the way Mitch is around the rim. He’s scary good. Also, notice how rebounding is not much of an issue now. He’s already getting stronger and more aggressive.

    However, I think his chances of becoming an efficient #1 or #2 scoring option is much lower than KP’s. KP already has the skills to be an efficient #2 option if used properly. Mitch still has a long path to becoming a dependable scoring option even though whatever he does put up each night will be efficient and valuable if he’s used like this. I find it interesting (unexplainable may be a better word) that Fizdale pretty much has everyone on the team testing their limits and doing things they are not equipped to do yet, but he’s using Mitch exactly as he should be at this stage instead of asking him to try to expand his game.

  120. gonna love hearing Stratomatic tell us about Cam Reddish does a lot of stuff that cannot be captured by metrics for the next 2.5 seasons before he’s traded for 2 future 2nd rounders and Zach LaVine

    I haven’t seen much of Cam Reddish, but if his individual defense is clearly well above average, there is data that suggests he does some other things well that are not in the boxscore (yet), and data that suggests the team plays better when he is on the court, I’ll be the first to tell you that if the boxscore models say he’s bad, they are definitely wrong. Other than that, you won’t hear from me. Sometimes the boxscore models get it right.

  121. DSJ played very well, Mitch was very impactful. We’re not gonna lose every game, so it’s fine, we beat one of the worst teams we’ll face the rest of the way. We lost to goddamned Cleveland, like, after that we can’t complain about a random win here.

  122. I’m pretty sure Dennis Smith Jr is actually Mudiay on a double dose of Red Bull. I’m still skeptical, but he’s young. The problem is he has to get better on both ends to even be OK or potentially great on offense like Doncic to accept subpar defense.

  123. DSJ isn’t a bad defender.

    Replacing Kanter with Jordan will be huge for Robinson.

    His positioning already seems better. I suspect Mitch of taking coaching well.

  124. @150 – I thing Mitch can develop more of an offensive game pretty easily. First, he learns how to shoot foul shots. Then he adds a hook shot and a step-back baby jumper. I don’t ever think he’ll ever be able to dribble like KP or hoists up 3’s like him with any regularity, but over the last 10 games he’s almost scoring in double figures while playing about 20 minutes per game.

  125. DSJ isn’t a bad defender.

    I’m not sure what data you are looking at, but when I watch him he doesn’t look good. He’s better this year than last year, but imo he’s still a negative. On/Off is a little sketchy and volatile, but over 2 years he’s been a negative on defense, a small positive on defense this year, but an overall large negative both years.

  126. DSJ has been fine defensively. He has occasional lapses like pretty much everybody but he’s not a sieve. He moves his feet well and while he’s not the most switchable guy, he strong and at least competes when he gets posted up by bigger guys. He reminds me a lot of Lowry both physically and in terms of demeanor so I wouldn’t be shocked to see him wind up being a plus on that end.

  127. @155

    If we can turn him into a Stevie Adams or Clint Capela on offense in a few years we should celebrate endlessly. A potentially elite rim protector with the athleticism to switch that’s an above average 3rd option on offense is one hell of a basketball player.

  128. He reminds me a lot of Lowry both physically and in terms of demeanor so I wouldn’t be shocked to see him wind up being a plus on that end.

    If he winds up being a plus on defense the path to becoming a good player is a lot shorter, but I’m not sold on him yet. There’s too much he does every game I don’t like. It may be more of a basketball IQ thing than talent and skill. He reminds me of Mudiay on some plays. He’ll do some especially skillful thing but then take a boneheaded shot, not finish, or make a boneheaded pass and then lapse on the other end. That kind of stuff frustrates me. I’d way rather see him just move the ball, take open shots, and focus on D.

  129. On/Off is a little sketchy and volatile, but over 2 years he’s been a negative on defense, a small positive on defense this year, but an overall large negative both years.

    I should add, he’s been a small positive on defense this year on teams that have below average and terrible defenses.

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