Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, February 21, 2019

Philadelphia 76ers 108 – New York Knicks 105 – Game Recap

Ah, finally, half a gem of a game.

Pretty much all of the first half was as dispirited as they come, with large portions of the first two quarters spent being very bad on the court for a lot of the players. Fizdale changed the starting lineup again, leaving Vonleh as the starting center and inserting Lance Thomas as the starting four. Spoiler alert: they recorded the worst- and second worst-plus/minus of all the players who stepped on the court. I’m not sure why Lance Thomas was called upon to man the four from the start, but alas, I guess – Fizdale magic!

Anyway, after a depressing first half, our Bockers definitely ramped it up in the second half. Threes were falling, the ball was moving and, more importantly, some of our young guns showed fire and desire. It has to be said that Philadelphia is at same time a good team and a very discombobulated one (probably a mix of the asshole/Jimmy Butler effect and a very shallow depth from the bench – seriously, Philly’s bench as of now is McConnell-Shamet-Korkmaz-Bolden-Muscala, which I still prefer though on our starting lineup, no Mudiay or THJ in sight). That being said, the fact that our guys were able to stay in this one and to play some spurts of good defense was a very heart-melting occurrence. The fact that we could have tied the game but we lost instead after such a valiant effort is pure gravy, given that we’re still trying to nab the biggest prize on lottery night.

Before delving into the first good/bad section that I’ll actually have fun writing in, like, more than a month – because games like this should be the gold standard for tanking teams, but it’s obvious that a tanking team like ours is much more likely a horrible sight to behold on a regular basis – let’s take a quick detour about how Embiid has definitely verged into “unsufferable prick” territory from quite a few time, only for the media to keep on gushing on his quirks. While I don’t embrace Clyde’s theory that the headbutt on Kornet at the end of the third quarter was intentional, every other passive-aggressive to full violent thing surely was. I know Kornet is a total nobody for the League, while Embiid if without a doubt a top-5 MVP candidate for the season, but unless some measures are taken the huge Cameroon-born player is gonna transform in a headache for the whole League, and not in the basketball sense (he already is) nor the literal sense (save for the poor seven footer we employ as human trebuchet), but in the disciplinary sense. If Silver and his cohorts don’t monitor with real attention the situation, he’ll find himself with a media darling doing bad things on the court, and the NBA doesn’t need that publicity. So I’d suggest someone try to restrain Embiid’s antics, and I keep on hoping for Kornet to drop 30 on him next time (23 is not bad, though, not at all).

The good:

– Ahem. It’s very early to make public amends, but let’s say that I’m not so sure anymore Kevin Knox (31 pts, 7 rebs, 2 stl, +11 +/-) wasn’t the right pick at #9. Don’t let the numbers sway you – actually, let them, but save the thought for later – what I’m talking about is the fact that it’s very apparent that the kid has learned a lot of things since the start of the season. If I had to guess his ceiling, it’s third/fourth piece on a contender, some sort of secondary/tertiary scorer with good range and a big body but a lack of defensive talent who tops at 15/6/2 on 44% from the field. Well, guess what, those players don’t grow on trees. We have every right to be mad that the team didn’t tank properly last year, but we’re losing that right about Knox’s selection, even if the reason given was as lunatic as it gets (the infamous 3-on-3 situation). I like how, game after game, he’s attacking the rim in a very deliberate way. My guess is that he’ll never be super comfortable at scoring at point blank range against tall defenders, but his body control on semi-transition drives has gotten worlds better than when he started the year. I’m very worried about his playing time (come on, 44 minutes are Thibs-level insanity, even if he was pretty good in a lot of aspects this time, even a bit on defense), but maybe, again, Fizdale magic! Get his numbers high through extra-inflated playing time. Anyway, he’s now the 7th youngest player to ever drop 30+ points (the others, in order: LeBron, Durant, Jaren Jackson Jr., Booker, Kobe) and the youngest Knick ever to do so. He’s sixth in PPG for rookies this year (while playing the fifth most MPG, I would have guessed higher). I mean, let’s not get carried away, but the kid has a shot to first-team All-Rookie. It doesn’t mean anything, but at least we probably didn’t squander this year’s lottery pick.

– What would happen if we had a real point guard, or a fungible player – see: anyone who can make passes to the open guy – to feed guys who can shoot the ball like Luke Kornet (23 pts, 5 rebs, 5 ast, +25 +/-)? We caught a glimpse of it last night, especially with Frank, that if open Kornet can really drain it. Rocket Giraffe is a career .387 3-point shooter on 155 attempts, which are a small sample size but not small enough to think it’s a fluke, even without considering his G-League percentages (.448 on 268 attempts). Kornet is the slowest player on the court for the vast majority of his minutes, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t know where to stand and, from time to time, how to get to his preferred spots. His athleticism is sub-par for the NBA but not for the type of player he is. I also absolutely loved the fact that when Embiid tried to eradicate his right arm at the end of the third quarter, earning a well-deserved flagrant 1 in the process, he didn’t flinch and went at the line to calmly sink the two freebies. It may be my bias to root for every center who isn’t Kanter on this team, but the man exudes the kind of self-assurance that usually you don’t see in goofy, almost uncoordinated seven footers. He also has nearly limitless range (if anything his misses are long, never Frank-like short) and offers a modicum of rim protection. It’s weird that the three best contributing bigs on the roster are on minimum (or near-minimum) while the most useless one is earning 5 times their three combined salaries. KP is on another stratosphere in terms of overall basketball skills, but there’s no reason not to keep around Kornet to play him to spell Porzingis a bit without any need to recalibrate the game system. Oh, sorry, I forgot. Fizdale magic doesn’t need a game system.

The bad:

– Joel Embiid is a very bad customer, but Noah Vonleh (3 pts, 2 rebs, 1 ast, -32 +/-) just wasn’t himself tonight. It happens, I won’t chastise him for that. What I will do, instead, is say that if there is a player against whom Vonleh shouldn’t start at center is Embiid, who is a crafty brute. Noah can handle crafty, long guys (see: Antetokounmpo or Durant) and big, burly guys without a lot of moves (see: pretty much every center he laid his eyes on), but he positively can’t do anything against Embiid, save for fouling hopelessly trying to contain him. Kornet’s stategy, while probably dictated by his non-existent athleticism, was much more useful: stand in place with arms outstretched wishing that a malevolent genie make Embiid miss from 10 feet in. I like Vonleh and you already know that, but he really, really needs to understand that in order to be productive you need to stay on the damn court, even if it means to give up two more uncontested hooks per game to the opposing teams. This team needs him on the court (apart from tonight where he reached -32 plus/minus in 18 minutes; he was a walking disaster).

– Sorry, but it might be time to burn the record file for the entire season of Allonzo Trier (0 pts, 2 rebs, 1 blk, -10 +/-). He was horrible last night, 13 minutes of utter suckitude we weren’t even able to fathom from him at the beginning of the season. He lost more than a step on this herky-jerky dribble moves, and doesn’t hit anything for anywhere anymore. It wouldn’t surprise me if dude was let go of in the offseason only to toil in obscurity for a couple years in Brooklyn. It can’t be the injury. It has to be the fact that he’s not hungry anymore. I’m so sad to see this thing go this way. Also, he never defends unless there’s a chance for a chase-down block. He has become the much worse version of THJ since signing that damn contract (which I was pining for).

Fun-sized bits:

– Frank returned, and wasn’t half bad! He shot terribly and was able to got a layup blocked by the mighty Mike Muscala even if he had a five feet head start, but the man was engaged and nifty in directing the traffic and defending the PnR. I liked what I saw, even if Frank has to shoot better and quicker. 8 points, 6 assist, 2 steals, 1 block and a nice +10 +/- for the night. More Frank, please.

– The real magic Fizdale worked on Mudiay is to make his raw numbers look better while continuing to be utter trash. Everytime Mudiay plays the half-court offense makes no sense anymore (not that Frank is a directing maestro, but at the very least you know he understands the nuances of a double screen for the shooter on the weak side: Mudiay just barrels into the paint and maybe thinks about it a half-second before tossing a ill-advised turn around jumper from 15 feet). 17 points, a huge three in the waning seconds, the missed potential game-tying three and a lot of suckiness. I really, really, really hope we’re not extending him. At the number 1 in my priority list there’s a capable PG for this team (see the Kornet section): Mudiay is certainly not that and OH GOD I’M SO AFRAID THEY’RE GONNA EXTEND HIM

– Who wants to talk about Lance Thomas? Yeah, I thought so.

– I’m loving Mario and his undeserved new-found absurd confidence, that translates either into a magnificent thread-the-needle pass to Knox in the fourth for an and-one dunk or into a stuporous dunk attempts on the entire Philly defense that ended in the equivalent of a botched Pollock painting.

– Did I really type “I’m loving Mario”?

– Dotson was solid if unspectacular. Second game in a row with 4+ assists. If he can give the ball to the open man there should be no more doubt about him belonging to an NBA average team’s rotation.

– The Knicks pulled within one at the end of the third quarter only to go scoreless for the first 5:57 minutes of the fourth quarter. I sorta liked Frank, but he needs to do better in the half-court sets (are there any? asking for a friend) or I fear he’ll get benched again for a long time.

– Completely unrelated: I was watching also the Denver-Portland game and at a certain point there was an infographic about some charity enterprise in place for the Nuggets. It advised, among other things, to bring a diaper to the next Bulls game (sic). Does this mean that we’re at the point where the Bulls suck so much they cause gastroenteritis?

– Again, unrelated. I don’t know if LeBron is your GOAT or not (he certainly isn’t mine, although it’s maybe anti-recency bias – also called “nostalgia, holy cow I’m feeling old”), but the levels of ugly the Lakers have reached without him makes you really marvel at the impact he can have on any single roster. For sustainable team-building purposes, maybe LeBron is bad, but for actual winning on the court, the King is a cheat code.

See you for the London game! (As I said, I considered going there, but I can’t. It will be another time, maybe… I have to catch a Knicks game live yet)

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114 comments on “Philadelphia 76ers 108 – New York Knicks 105 – Game Recap

  1. Frank

    Great recap as usual Farfa!

    From the way you see Knox and Frank finishing inside you can see Fizdale and co. are really trying to work on players doing that extended/arm outstretched/wrong-foot leaning layup a la Steve Nash– have seen Timmy do that more than ever this year, and clearly Knox and Frank are doing it now too.

    Frank easily could’ve shot 7/11 yesterday – bunch of his close shots juuuuuust rimmed out. Loved seeing him attack the cup.

    Kornet… I don’t know what to say about him other than that he’s been absolutely outstanding. The combination of some degree of rim protection, floor spacing, and passing is really pretty rare. I mean, the total list of players who have played >300 minutes and are shooting >40% from 3P and >8 3PA/36 = Steph Curry, Kyle Korver, Buddy Hield, and Luke Kornet. Which one of these is not like the others? And his shooting is really for reals — over his last 423 attempts from NBA 3 point range (between G-league and NBA) he’s shooting 42.6% — this is not just a hot stretch.

    It is quite possible we will need to make a tough decision about him this offseason unless he turns into a pumpkin. He’ll be restricted, and given his whiteness I doubt anyone thinks of him as a starting center, but he could get a multi-year offer at the taxpayer MLE level or more. Thankfully we have his early-bird rights and his cap hold is really low.

  2. ClashFan

    As someone said yesterday, it was so much easier to root for the team with THJ sitting and, to a lesser extent, Kanter, too.

    I missed most of the first half of the game, but did see much of the 2nd half, esp. 4th quarter. Frank looked good out there on D, and IIRC assisted Mudiay on that late three. If only the guy could shoot, but still no signs of improvement there.

    Any thoughts on the new two-way guy Kadeem Allen? Is he he worth a shot at 26 years old?

  3. thenoblefacehumper

    I’m a broken record but I mean it every time I say it: great cap.

    The Trier situation really is disappointing. I’d still pick up his option (or decline it and try to keep him in RFA) but I was pretty excited about him a month or two ago and now he seems like just another flyer. Oh well. The good thing about signing guys like Trier instead of Arron Afflalo is you don’t lose anything when they don’t work out.

    Hot take: Kornet could be the guy on our roster who garners the most interest at the trade deadline, assuming teams don’t view KP/Knox/MitchRob as available. It looks like he has a tiny cap hold as an RFA so I’d have no problem keeping him as long as he’s re-signed on the cheap, but if he can keep up this shooting I bet some teams make the call.

    I know! This dumb regime is too enamored with “their guy” to trade away a rookie they drafted 7 months ago. What morons!

    Imagine living life thinking it’s a good idea to reflexively defend the front office of the New York Knicks.

    To be clear, I meant that I think the best chance to get value from the pick is to trade him at any time. That could be tomorrow or it could be 6 seasons from now if he’s a “bonafide 20 point scorer” but has a 53% TS or some shit and actually sucks.

    But someone mildly criticized the decision making process of one of the worst run franchises in sports so I know an alarm went off in your head, no worries.

  4. Frank

    Hot take: Kornet could be the guy on our roster who garners the most interest at the trade deadline, assuming teams don’t view KP/Knox/MitchRob as available. It looks like he has a tiny cap hold as an RFA so I’d have no problem keeping him as long as he’s re-signed on the cheap, but if he can keep up this shooting I bet some teams make the call.

    Given his restricted nature + tiny cap hold, I’d want at minimum a good 1st round pick for him – like either of the Grizzlies/Kings pick that Boston has ie. late lottery. It’s totally different from Vonleh, who we have no hold on this summer — Kornet is valuable, young, and under control – for sure would need a mid first round pick or better.

  5. thenoblefacehumper

    Given his restricted nature + tiny cap hold, I’d want at minimum a good 1st round pick for him – like either of the Grizzlies/Kings pick that Boston has ie. late lottery. It’s totally different from Vonleh, who we have no hold on this summer — Kornet is valuable, young, and under control – for sure would need a mid first round pick or better.

    Yeah I would need a first and not a protected/elite team first. It’s just something to think about since we have a bit of a glut at the position. I’d be happy to keep him if he can be re-signed for something sensible, but I won’t be happy if he gets KOQ’d.

  6. thenoblefacehumper

    Bagley yeah
    Doncic r u kiddin
    Jackson yeah
    Carter nah
    Gilgeous-Alexander mebbe
    John Collins yeah (i liked him at draft time)
    Adebayo nah
    Jarrett Allen nah
    2019 #2 mebbe

    Not unreasonable, but I would trade Knox for Carter and Allen in an instant. Carter is the same age and has been solid even by non-rookie standards this year. That dude seems destined to be underrated throughout his career. Jarrett Allen is an absolute monster and is only 20. I’d rather have him than KP right now (let me know if I should ease up swift, I don’t want to break the alarm).

    The #2 pick is tough because this draft, well, sucks, but Morant seems like both a better prospect and a better fit for the team so I would make that trade too.

  7. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    Right now, to me, the keepers are KP, Frank, Dotson, Kornet, Vonleh, Robinson, and Knox. I’d keep all those guys unless an elite free agent wants to come to NY and we need to make a move. Then someone like Vonleh (depending on what it will take to keep him) might have to be moved.

    No one else we’ve brought in has done enough to convince me to keep them and I have no desire to move any of my keepers unless a very good case can be made that we are getting a better player/value back.

    The player I’m most anxious to move is Hardaway and I don’t see much of a role for Kanter either no matter what the price.

    Hezonja sounds like he wants to stay in NY so badly he’d give us a huge discount. He’s playing a lot better lately, but overall he’s been so bad he’d have to have a great second half for me to keep him unless it was a ridiculously cheap deal.

    Tier is on the fence pending more info.

    The problem is the team is probably way more anxious to move Lee than Hardaway when Hardaway is the worse player on the worse contract. They may also still view Mudiay as a long term solution at PG.

  8. thenoblefacehumper

    What’s an optimistic comp for Knox? An efficient high volume scoring forward who doesn’t pass or play defense

    Tobias Harris has been flung around a few times and that seems like the best answer. I have my doubts that Knox ever breaks 60% TS (and who knows if Harris finishes there) but if you want to be optimistic I think that’s who you’re looking at. Knox probably has a tad more defensive upside.

  9. Donnie Walsh

    Frank easily could’ve shot 7/11 yesterday – bunch of his close shots juuuuuust rimmed out.

    Another important aspect of Frank’s game that isn’t reflected in the box score.

  10. d-mar

    Hell, I’d be thrilled if Kevin Knox turned into Tobias Harris. Harris has had a very nice career and is really blossoming in LA. Besides the improved TS% this year of .607 (and his career is .560, not shabby) he’s averaging 8.5 rebounds per 36. And he’s a pretty good defender also.

    It’s very heartening to see Knox go from a giraffe on skates to a legitimate NBA player.

  11. kevin5318

    And he’s a pretty good defender also.

    I thought the consensus was that he’s pretty bad on defense. Which leads more credence to the Knox comparison at this point.

  12. kevin5318

    I don’t really believe that Trier just started playing like trash because he got his money. Hamstring injuries are really tough to come back from.

  13. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    That’s the thing about Frank. He’s starting from such a low base as a scorer, every little thing he adds or improves on seems like a big deal and is encouraging. Unfortunately, it’s also like he climbed the first flight of stairs on the way to the stop of the Empire State building. At least he’s still better at half the game than most of other players.

  14. ptmilo

    What’s an optimistic comp for Knox? An efficient high volume scoring forward who doesn’t pass or play defense

    Danny Granger?

  15. thenoblefacehumper

    Kadeem Allen will probably amount to nothing, but there’s enough in his stats to be a tiny bit intrigued. These are exactly the kinds of contracts terrible teams should be handing out, and this front office seems to recognize that better than literally all of the ones that preceded them. They deserve credit for that.

    It speaks to our standards that “they understand incredibly basic things about the NBA market” is a compliment, but hey, baby steps I guess. Maybe one day we’ll even have a front office that’s as competent as the average KB poster.

  16. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Hamstring injuries are really tough to come back from.

    For a player who makes a living on downhill speed and slashing ability, yeah, a hamstring would be pretty damn tough to come back from.

  17. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    Kornet’s stategy, while probably dictated by his non-existent athleticism, was much more useful: stand in place with arms outstretched wishing that a malevolent genie make Embiid miss from 10 feet in.

    Made me laugh.

    I was bummed to see Baker go (if only it could have been Lee or Hardaway in a trade…), but the logic of the move made sense if Kornet could be anything at all. As we’ve discussed on the board of late, one of the problems of building a team around a unique, elite talent is that when that player is off the court, the whole team suffers. E.g. LeBron. I’m not saying that KP is an elite talent, but he is unique, and Kornet is at least an approximation on offense (though nowhere close on D). So it made sense to keep him, and with his recent play, even more so going forward. I wouldn’t trade him.

  18. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    As for Hez, I can’t help but feel that during the most recent benching, his agent told him he’d be back in Europe if he didn’t start showing some effort. So I’m not swayed by his improved play. I don’t need to see more to know that we should not be thinking of keeping him. No.

    Trier…yes, because of the hammy we have to give him more time. Fingers crossed he’s playing like he was at the beginning of the season by the end of the season.

  19. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Jowles, I would trade Knox for Doncic. The other guys, I don’t know. I haven’t watched them enough yet to say. But its an irrelevant question bc any theoretical trade involving Knox would most likely NOT include any of those people.

    But we can agree that even without watching a minute of John Collins, but seeing him score 50% more points per possession on substantially higher efficiency, he’s a better player than Knox, right? (Especially since Knox does almost nothing but score.)

    Its not about inflating value of our own players. Its about believing in the process of developing our players and seeing that process through. “Selling High” is nice in theory and when its an obvious sell high situation you go for it. But when does that actually happen?

    But on what grounds should we “believe in the process?” The Knicks have not re-signed a draftee past his rookie contract since Charlie Ward. This latest coach in the carousel has been around for 8 months. The front office has repeatedly plucked shite players from the discount bin (except, you know, trading draft picks for the likes of Mudiay) and hasn’t had much of a return outside of Vonleh, whose sudden rotation-worthy ability seems more likely a contract-year, effort-related ploy than some magical “adjustment” that coaches have made in his game over the course of a few months. There’s no reason to “trust” or “believe” in Knicks development strength any more than another franchise’s.

    Lets say you trade Knox not for one of those players you mentioned but for another top ten pick in THIS year’s draft. What would that achieve exactly except starting us over on another player?

    Well, it depends on which player it would be. Would I trade Knox for Cam Reddish? Morant? Hachimura?

    My question was whether you’d trade a scrub (e.g. Knox) for a guy who’s obviously a future All-NBA player (i.e. Doncic). That’s all.

  20. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    As for Hez, I can’t help but feel that during the most recent benching, his agent told him he’d be back in Europe if he didn’t start showing some effort. So I’m not swayed by his improved play. I don’t need to see more to know that we should not be thinking of keeping him. No.

    He’s 100% no. He could score 35 on decent efficiency and it’d be a no.

    He’s clearly playing harder, I too assume because he knows his career is in jeopardy. Sign him to a 3-year deal and watch him play year-round like it’s January instead of June.

  21. Owen

    Knox was so bad at the beginning of this year I was having a hard time picturing him being an NBA player. I can see glimmers of hope but I think people are being much too optimistic on him at this point. Overall, he’s been crappy and I would trade him for Wendell Carter Jr. in an instant.

    As for Luke, we have to pump the brakes on him too. Let’s see how he does when opposing teams set up their entire defense to try to stop him.

  22. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Also swift, I want to be clear that, like with Frank, I think Knox is a scrub who should be playing 30-35 minutes a night because (1) he’s young and needs development (2) the Knicks are tanking (3) he’s under contract for 3 more full seasons and (4) his trade value will be improved with more minutes, in the event he is as bad as we feared, but some team might give up an asset to reclaim him from the draft-bust dumpster.

    As with Frank, you either play him huge minutes (to develop and inflate value) or you trade him for the first available rookie-scale contract that yields a good player without giving up more assets.

    I don’t think the Knicks have some magic wand to develop players faster or better than other franchises, but I do think that there’s nothing to be gained by keeping young players on the bench.

    It’s the veteran contracts that I find more onerous — the Hardaway, Lee and Noah contracts are cumulatively far, far worse than “wasting” the #9 on a mediocre NCAA player like Knox, IMO. But I’d prefer that neither happen.

    Also I meant Hezonja putting up 35 in a single game, not averaging 35 on good efficiency, obviously…

  23. swiftandabundant

    Well when you put adjectives or nouns like “scrub” in front of your description of Knox, then I guess I would be a complete moron to not trade him for Doncic.

    Dude, I all ready said I would trade Knox for Doncic. What’s your point? That Doncic is better? Well duh, he was drafted before Knox, so that’s not surprising.

    As far as the rest of your post, you bringing shit up back to Charlie Ward is irrelevant to me. Perry has been here for less than 2 years. Fiz has been here less than 1. Mills has been here forever, but I chose to believe he’s not running things anymore. And you saying that stuff about Vonleh…that’s your own projection on what his future is going to be like.

    I get it. You hate Knox and will never give him an ounce of credit for anything he does bc he didn’t check the boxes in your sacred pre draft stat sheet.

  24. geo

    As for Luke, we have to pump the brakes on him too. Let’s see how he does when opposing teams set up their entire defense to try to stop him.

    that was funny…yeah – teams will be planning on slowing down kornet right after they figure out a way to curtail frank from going off on a nightly basis…

    actually – i have to imagine teams already have the memo to make sure to close out on him…maybe they start guarding him with a 4 or 3…

    watching kornet last year, i never in a million years thought he would put up 23 points in an nba game…i think something that’s been mentioned a bunch already is dead on with him – he just seems to stay within himself and understand his role really well…

    he is a modern nba 5…and, there’s a good chance – he’ll get better…

  25. swiftandabundant

    The thing is, you’re the biggest rebuild through the draft guy here but you somehow believe The Knicks will never be capable of developing players while other teams are. If that is truly what you believe, then even drafting a ready made NBA superstar won’t change things cause we’ll fuck it up, so what the hell is the point of anything?

  26. swiftandabundant

    You’re saying nothing groundbreaking or new by saying what you said. Oh you don’t like the Hardaway, LEe and Noah contracts either? What insight?

    You constantly calling a 19 year old rookie player who just won rookie of the month a scrub and saying he sucks because anyone would trade him for Doncic…it makes you look like a guy who has a clear agenda. Knox performed well in summer league. He started out slow but is now playing well. Giving him credit where credit is due, doesn’t mean you’re wrong about him because that has yet to be determined and won’t for a few years. Its ok to be positive sometimes, jowles.

  27. thenoblefacehumper

    I get it. You hate Knox and will never give him an ounce of credit for anything he does bc he didn’t check the boxes in your sacred pre draft stat sheet.

    I really try to engage with you in good faith, but how do you expect people to respond to you if you just blatantly mischaracterize what they say?

    Knox is a god awful player right now. That’s about as close to an objective fact as possible in the NBA and I’m saying this as someone who is on record being somewhat encouraged as of late. It certainly doesn’t mean he’ll be bad forever, but bad in college –> bad in the NBA is not going to make anyone heavily adjust their priors.

  28. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Dude, I all ready said I would trade Knox for Doncic. What’s your point? That Doncic is better? Well duh, he was drafted before Knox, so that’s not surprising.

    It was a litmus test for your homerism, and you passed. I just wanted to see if you were wearing blue and orange-tinted glasses, because if you thought Knox had “more upside” than Doncic, we obviously wouldn’t be seeing the same reality, and this conversation would be totally unproductive.

    Nowhere did I say to write off Knox because he’s been terrible. I don’t think that about Frank, who might not even be worth of the G-League, so I certainly wouldn’t think that about Knox, who has already shown the ability to score at volume (like last night) in a way that Ntilikina never has. Volume shooting/shot creation may not be a rare skill in the NBA, but it’s one that Frank completely lacks — and still I think he should be playing major minutes for this team.

  29. geo

    As for Hez, I can’t help but feel that during the most recent benching, his agent told him he’d be back in Europe if he didn’t start showing some effort. So I’m not swayed by his improved play. I don’t need to see more to know that we should not be thinking of keeping him. No.

    next year’s ‘just say no': mud, super mario, burke, lance…

    what is kind of cool though is reading stories about the knicks coaching staff staying really positive with mario and coaching him up while he was on the bench for several games..

    a couple of knicks now have mentioned (specifically keith smart) how the coaches have been extremely helpful in trying to help them with their game…

    that’s a good thing…

  30. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    You constantly calling a 19 year old rookie player who just won rookie of the month a scrub

    Andrew Wiggins, a dreadful NBA player, was the 2014-15 ROY. Michael Carter-Williams won the awarad before him. Jah Okafor was on the 2015-16 All-Rookie team. Other All-Rookie selections: Elfrid Payton. Tim Hardaway, Jr. Trey Burke. Jordan Clarkson. Devin Booker. Iman Shumpert. Michael Beasley. Landry Fields. Brandon Knight. Dion Waiters. And of course, a certain former overall #1 center (whose name I am not going to write, for the sake of your blood pressure). I could not care less about rookie awards.

    and saying he sucks because anyone would trade him for Doncic…it makes you look like a guy who has a clear agenda. Knox performed well in summer league. He started out slow but is now playing well. Giving him credit where credit is due, doesn’t mean you’re wrong about him because that has yet to be determined and won’t for a few years. Its ok to be positive sometimes, jowles.

    I never said he sucked because he’s not Luka Doncic. Why would I say something so stupid? Would I have said that Wade sucks because no one would have traded him for LeBron in 2003? Or that Ayton sucks because Doncic exists? C’mon. You’re accusing me of an agenda with a serious agenda of your own.

    (1) Summer League is meaningless. It’s not the NBA.
    (2) I’ll give credit for the awesome game he had last night. It was truly impressive. I will also take away credit for the full FIFTY PERCENT of his games in which he failed to break .500 TS%.
    (3) My stance on Knox is pretty hard to argue with: has played like a scrub, occasionally-good games, under contract until 2022, should play a ton of minutes unless someone is desperate to give up real assets for him.
    (4) Being positive does not mean being blindly optimistic. I want him to develop, but saying that he’s been anything but bad on the whole? Incorrect.

  31. Farfa Post author

    Yeah, I mean, for all of his improvements (which are evident) Knox is shooting 49% TS and is posting a negative WS/48 for the season. He’s a terrible player. I would trade him for every rookie selected before him save for Sexton and for some rookies selected after him (SGA, Miles Bridges come to mind).

  32. Donnie Walsh

    you bringing shit up back to Charlie Ward is irrelevant to me. Perry has been here for less than 2 years. Fiz has been here less than 1. Mills has been here forever, but I chose to believe he’s not running things anymore.

    January, 1999: Charlie Ward signs multi-year contract to stay with Knicks.

    August, 1999: James L. Dolan becomes Chairman of the Knicks.

  33. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    It’s the veteran contracts that I find more onerous — the Hardaway, Lee and Noah contracts are cumulatively far, far worse than “wasting” the #9 on a mediocre NCAA player like Knox, IMO. But I’d prefer that neither happen.

    If you draft poorly (which is a lot of teams a lot of the time), it takes so long to turn around a tanking team, those bad contracts are often gone before they even matter. Hardaway probably matters because he’ll be here for a few years and he’s taking playing time from other players. Lee is almost irrelevant at this stage. He’s content enough to be a mentor and get paid to not cause trouble. He’s not taking minutes away from anyone. He’ll be gone before we are out of the lottery unless we happen to be in a position to land Durant. And then ironically Durant might actually want to keep him around instead of Hardaway because he’ll want some vets around that can play to help him.

  34. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    Knox is playing so much better now than he was at the beginning of the season (visually, statistically, and he was injured early) that I don’t think it’s correct to look at his annual stats to make a judgement. I’m not sure what his current real ability is, but it’s not his annual stats. Also, just for fun I remember some stats guys not liking the productivity of Durant at 19 either. He was certainly better than Knox, but he didn’t look like a future all time great at that time. You can’t make firm judgments at 19, especially when the kid is especially immature like Knox and obviously getting better. Maybe he’ll be a bum, but maybe there’s a lot more to come.

  35. Bruno Almeida

    Here we go again… you can’t possibly be so defensive already about a guy who clearly IS a scrub right now.

    Is he locked for the entirety of his career as a scrub? Obviously not. But 40 games into the season Kevin Knox’s performance has been that of a scrub, a bottom 50 player in the league and a guy who, if he was 25, would be heading to China next season.

    He’s 19, so play him for 35 minutes every night and let him develop and do whatever the front office / management can to help him grow as a player, as his contract is a valuable piece and there’s reasons to believe he can develop. It’s been 20 years since the Knicks have developed a young player, and Steve “fresh start” Mills has been around for 11 of those, so I really wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for it.

    I will explain it once again for those who seemingly can’t understand this basic concept: some of us are so adamant on the Knicks needing to either draft or sign a mega star / all-NBA player because we have zero confidence this team has either the knowledge, patience or proper planning necessary to develop a good team from pieces with less potential. If you chose to be this confident of exactly the opposite for some mystical belief in people who have pragmatically shown nothing to give us that sort of hope, it’s your choice. But one thing is optimism and the other is blind faith.

    Nobody is hammering someone from posting “damn I like Knox, I hope he turns out to be a good player”, that’s optimism. Thinking that Perry and Mills have got what it takes to develop a good team or that Knox is surely going to improve is blind faith.

  36. Z-man

    Knox is a god awful player right now.

    He’s a terrible player.

    Since he’s been made a starter he has been shooting at a TS% of .515 (36+% from 3 on 6+ attempts per 36) on moderate to heavy usage and playing 34 mpg! He’s pretty much exactly where you’d hope for a high-usage one-and-done player picked at #9 to be…slowly and steadily improving after a rough start. As 19yo rookies go, he’s been pretty far from “god awful” or “terrible”, and while winning ROM is not that big a deal, it does say something. His college stats don’t mean shit any more, nor do the pre-draft questions about his motor. The question now is whether he will keep improving or top out at this level.

  37. Farfa Post author

    Z-Man,

    of course! If I had to grade him on a relative scale (rookie, very young, started injured etc) I’d give him a C+ for now. As for his absolute NBA production, he’s a D. That’s all there is. I’m rooting for him to become a serviceable player after a bad but slightly promising first half.

  38. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    Z-Man, I agree. The “terrible” stuff is a considerable exaggeration of late. I’m on record as wanting SGA, but at the moment there’s enough evidence, in very small sample size, that it could end up about even. And small sample size or not, it isn’t crazy to look at month over month numbers for a rookie looking for trends…and the trends here are positive.

    Still wish we had SGA, but Knox may actually work out.

  39. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    His college stats don’t mean shit any more

    But his off-the-bench minutes do. I’m sure there are a lot of posters who’d like to disregard his bad games, his NCAA stats, his off-the-bench games, his games in November and December, his [squints at BBRef splits page] games on Wednesdays, his games against the Southeast and Northwest Divisions, games where he plays between 20-29 minutes, and Knicks’ wins — because then we have Kevin Knox, It’s Only His Rookie Year, Guys™, and that’s easier to digest than the alternative.

  40. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    Also, volume scorers are more tradable (still!), so Knox probably has more perceived value.

  41. thenoblefacehumper

    I think C+ is a sensible grade for him on the rookie curve, but his absolute production…I mean, you kinda have to go with F right? His BPM is -5.6! Either way I agree with the ideas in your post.

    His college stats don’t mean shit any more, nor do the pre-draft questions about his motor. The question now is whether he will keep improving or top out at this level.

    See, I think this is totally wrong. For example Durant didn’t light the world on fire as a rookie, but people would’ve been correct, both at the time and in hindsight, to cite his monstrous year at Texas as a reason he was likely to improve. Players who have put up his NCAA numbers (in major conferences) have overwhelmingly proceeded to be great NBA players.

    If you’re bad in college and proceed to have a bad rookie season, you’re just bad until further notice. Players who have put up Knox’s NCAA numbers…I’ve run the play index before. Go see for yourself. Maybe make sure you’re sitting down or something when you do it.

  42. JK47

    You can play the “arbitrary endpoint” game with Knox and get him to a .515 TS% if you want to, but that’s kind of pointless. He’s still a negative win shares player for the season and has been one of the least productive rookies in his class, Rookie of the Month or not. He’s in the Collin Sexton/Trae Young tier of rookies in terms of production.

  43. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    @42

    Um, yeah…over the last 15 games or so, his numbers – while inconsistent – are generally better. Some terrible games, sure, but also more good games.

  44. swiftandabundant

    Is it too much to ask a Knicks related fan site to not shit in our cornflakes each morning about a player on our team?

    I mean, jesus, I get it. You guys like stats and love to bludgeon those of us who aren’t as savvy about them so you can prove how smart you are. But like, Knox is 19 years old and just dropped 30 plus points as a rookie! The list of teenagers to do that is pretty small and includes some pretty good players on it.

    There’s a difference between being a homer and being quietly optimistic about a player when he has a good game or a stretch of good games and I don’t need a bunch of wet blankets every morning saying “well actually” with their stats. We get it. You know everything and the rest of us are stupid. But can you like, actually give him praise for ONE FUCKING GAME? Who knows what the future will bring with these players? Just some fucking props every once in a while would be nice.

  45. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    There’s a difference between being a homer and being quietly optimistic about a player when he has a good game or a stretch of good games

    Yes, there is… but you know which one of those you are.

  46. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    Kevin Knox isn’t Mikal Bridges or SGA so he’ll never be a Knickerblogger favorite, and that’s factorial.

    At the same time, he’s improving from terrible to merely bad. He’s had some good games and he’s not the same player he was in October, but he’s not “IN YOUR FACE NAYSAYERS” good yet. We’ll see how the 2nd half of the season goes. For the record, I’d have probably taken SGA and Kevin Huerter over him back on draft night, but I’m quite content with Knox. His ceiling is Danilo Gallinari without the health issues, and that’s a useful player if you don’t throw a bunch of money at him.

  47. Bruno Almeida

    @45

    Seriously, just go to Reddit. There you’ll only see positive stuff about Knicks young players when they perform well and the “negative” stuff that you hate so much will be downvoted. This board is different and extremely interesting to most people precisely because there’s this very pragmatic approach of considering all aspects of a player’s performance, his value, opportunity value, overall production, etc. while mostly not getting carried away by some specific performances.

    If you’re going to throw a tantrum everytime someone is pragmatic about a Knicks player performance, this is really not the place to be.

  48. thenoblefacehumper

    I was about to say, if you seek unbridled positivity at all times have you tried literally any other Knicks-based website besides maybe P&T?

  49. thenoblefacehumper

    Looking back, it’s honestly pretty hard to think of a time this board was too pessimistic even with the benefit of hindsight.

    I’d say the best example is the malaise after drafting KP since if I recall correctly he actually profiled well statistically, albeit with the limited number of Euroleague models out there. We had just suffered through multiple Bargnani seasons and I think the surface level similarities clouded people’s judgment (myself very much included). Still, we should probably wait for him to post a BPM of 1 before we happily take that L.

    THJ likely returned value as the 24th pick and people here didn’t really like the pick (again, myself included), but boy, it sure is hard to classify that one as a win now…

  50. geo

    i used to check in on posting and toasting a bunch…there’s some really funny folks there – a little too cheery and superficial for my taste though…

    knickerblogger is pure garbage…

    You know I love it when the news is bad
    Why it feels so good to feel so sad?

    Pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down on me
    Pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down on me

  51. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    I’m not only happy when it rains! I swear! But this, alas, is true:

    Looking back, it’s honestly pretty hard to think of a time this board was too pessimistic even with the benefit of hindsight.

    But this is not:

    Kevin Knox isn’t Mikal Bridges or SGA so he’ll never be a Knickerblogger favorite, and that’s factorial.

    Totally wrong! I will love me some Knox when he starts putting together strings of 20 point games on a TS of 54%, averaging 8 boards per 36, while playing better than appalling defense. A low bar!

  52. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    You can play the “arbitrary endpoint” game with Knox and get him to a .515 TS% if you want to, but that’s kind of pointless. He’s still a negative win shares player for the season and has been one of the least productive rookies in his class, Rookie of the Month or not. He’s in the Collin Sexton/Trae Young tier of rookies in terms of production.

    I agree that he’s been terrible by NBA standards, but he’s been improving rapidly and his recent level is not particularly bad for an especially immature 19 year old. That’s all I am saying.

  53. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    This board is different and extremely interesting to most people precisely because there’s this very pragmatic approach of considering all aspects of a player’s performance, his value, opportunity value, overall production, etc. while mostly not getting carried away by some specific performances.

    That’s not true. The board is interesting and not full of homers, which is nice, but it people here who are negative on someone stay negative and defend their position to the death. They also seem to assume that no one ever gets better as a player.

  54. Mike Honcho

    On a higher/lower note, I believe we are now second worst in the league recordwise. I forget if Chicago has the tiebreaker on us, but even if they don’t we’re still tied for second worst.

  55. thenoblefacehumper

    KnickFanInNJ if you actually have an example of people on this board remaining pessimistic about something in the face of evidence they shouldn’t, now would be a great time to post it since I specifically raised the question. I’m genuinely curious!

  56. swiftandabundant

    I’m not against negativity. Trier has been playing like shit since he came back. Frank is disappointing me with his lack of improvement. I think Hardaway is a decent player but yeah, I’d trade him if there was an option to do that. The Noah and Lee signings were major screwups. I’m willing to admit when I’m wrong, too. I worry about Fiz’s long term vision and coaching ability.

    What I can’t stand is using stats as some cold hard proof that you are always right and never wrong about a player or using them to somehow prove that a player can’t improve when they’re young. Or changing the goal posts when a player does improve so that you can still say they suck.

    Shitting on a player and calling them a scrub when he’s 19 andjust dropped a career high (in a fairly efficient manor) seems I don’t know….shitty? Overly pessimistic? Not a good way to go through life?

    I mean, this is fucking sports. I’ve seen the Giants beat the undefeated patriots in the superbowl because of a miracle catch. I was at the Music City Miracle in 2000. I watched Lebron and The Cavs beat the team with the most regular season wins ever. Amazing shit happens in sports all the time and its the main reason why we watch and care and root for our team. The cubs didn’t win a world series for 100 years and then suddenly they did.

    One lucky lottery ball, one player taking a leap no one saw coming…one 2nd round pick turning into an all-star player. One thing like this can turn around a franchise. ACting like it couldn’t happen to us bc of stats and projections…I don’t know…fuck all that noise. Let me have my KNOX DAY.

  57. Bruno Almeida

    @55

    I mean, I’m really not trying to be a jerk, but do you think those people who are defending their negative positions to death are wrong? After watching the last 6 seasons this franchise has gone through including this one? If anything the Knicks performances have only proved they were right all along.

    The second part is obviously not true, people have recognized and talked extensively about guys like Giannis, Jokic, Harden, Fox, Hield, Oladipo, Lowry, Tobias Harris, all guys who improved a lot and made real leaps, just saying some of the guys I remember right now. Those people you’re targeting just hate to simply assume that because a player is young he’ll automatically improve, like some of you want to believe, or that just because a player is on the Knicks it means we have to be optimistic about their potential.

  58. Bruno Almeida

    @58

    That’s ok, you can have your Knox day on literally any other space for discussing the Knicks. You can’t seriously expect an entire message board full of people to adjust to your perspective. At the end of the day miracles can happen, but when one happens, for the 29 other teams in the league they didn’t.

  59. djphan

    knox hasnt really been good… im surprised by how many ppl actually are pleasantly surprised by him given this boards hatred for chuckers… hes a quintessential chucker… his only plus skill is that hes shown he could score in a variety of ways… but none of those ways are approaching good efficiency….

    he is on the wiggins path… and thats not a compliment… and he has a lot of work to even get to wiggins level of production from his rookie year….

    the 2p fg% is still bad but theres a higher likelihood for him to be a good piece the more he clears .400… the secondary skills are all mediocre to bad … as they were in college and the main thing holding him back…

    if hes supposed to be super athletic it should show up in the box score… hes depending on a lot of 3s for his pts which signals that hes a bit overmatched in 2p territory.. its been less lately but his ftr hasnt improved either…

    it all adds up to alot of iffy feelings still… you gotta squint really hard to find cause for optimism…

  60. DRed

    If you want to be optimistic try talking about Kornet, who we found on the scrap heap and just outplayed Joel Embiid.

  61. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    I don’t think anyone here would argue that all 18-20 year olds are going to improve, but many would argue (myself included) that there’s a better chance of a teenager improving than a more mature player in his mid 20s. So if some 18-19 year old is a little behind some 21-22 year old now, STATISTICALLY you have to build in a greater probability of improvement. It may or may not happen, but age is a factor in any evaluation of future productivity. It’s no different than projecting that when Melo hit his 30s there was a good chance he’d start declining. He did. Then again Lebron has not. There are no certainties, but there are probabilities.

  62. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    If you want to be optimistic try talking about Kornet, who we found on the scrap heap and just outplayed Joel Embiid.

    #ThanksPhil :-)

    I don’t know about Kornet. He’s tough and they say he’s a brilliant guy. In my book that increases the chances he’s going to find way to be productive. But I think it’s way too soon to jump on his bandwagon. When they start taking away the good 3 pointers (and they will), he’s going to have to find another way to score effectively.

  63. Donnie Walsh

    The reason swiftandabundant doesn’t defect to another site is because he knows, in his heart, that we are right and they are wrong.

  64. thenoblefacehumper

    To piggyback on djphan’s point, I’ll restate that my biggest fear with Knox isn’t that he washes out of the league completely. Weirdly enough that’s far from the worst outcome for a draft pick, even a high lottery pick. Philly has shown that’s a storm that cam be weathered as long as you don’t panic and sign a bunch of terrible contracts. Get back in the lottery and try again.

    I think Knox’s chances of being a good player are pretty low, but the chances that he averages 20+ PPG at some point are substantially higher. He seems like a prime Andrew Wiggins Award candidate, given to the player who demonstrates the absolute worst dollar/wins value in the NBA. That’s an exponentially worse scenario than the one in which one of us ironically buys a Kevin Knox Beikong Fly Dragons jersey.

  65. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier. TNFH, The Knicks have had so few young players to watch grow, there aren’t too many examples to talk about. But I would cite KP. Some posters still suggest he’s a lousy player and we should get rid of him for not very much.

  66. thenoblefacehumper

    I haven’t seen a single person, except maybe ProjectKnicks, call KP a “lousy” player. I definitely haven’t seen anyone say we should get rid of him for not very much.

    I have seen legitimate discussion of whether it would be better to lose him for little-to-nothing, or to re-sign him to his max contract. I think that’s a very worthwhile debate. This is the only Knicks forum in which I’ve seen said discussion despite the fact that it might be the single most important transaction we make for five seasons. I mean, even the most dedicated optimist can’t argue a KP max (which isn’t allowed to have Embiid-like injury protections) isn’t full of risk, so why shouldn’t that be a real discussion?

  67. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Some posters still suggest he’s a lousy player and we should get rid of him for not very much.

    That’s not an accurate characterization of the KP skepticism.

    If the three options are

    (1) offer him a max contract despite not knowing how well he’ll play post-ACL
    (2) trade him for a guaranteed lottery pick
    (3) watch him walk in FA

    is it so crazy to think #2 is the best option for the long-term health of the franchise?

  68. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    im surprised by how many ppl actually are pleasantly surprised by him given this boards hatred for chuckers…

    If you hated the pick and thought he was likely to be a bust, and it’s looking like he may be an NBA player, then I guess you can call that pleasantly surprised.

    But it’s also actually watching the games, which many on here don’t do. I don’t trust the eye test in terms of big games or big shots – “Kobe is so clutch!” – but I DO watch how players play, the choices they make etc. And Knox looks much better getting to the hoop. He is playing stronger… It’s not like Mudiay, with his terrible form, somehow making more shots. Knox is overpowering opponents occasionally. At 19. And that is what bodes well, with the improved results.

  69. d-mar

    It is immensely satisfying watching the presumptive Eastern Conference champion Boston Celtics suck ass.

  70. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I didn’t see the Cs’ struggles coming, but when we heard Tatum was learning skillz from Kobe, maybe I should have.

  71. ptmilo

    If Haralabob has a real voice in Dallas I can’t help but think DSJ is out the door the minute a team like PHX is willing to feel that kind of optimism.

    this seems like it’s aging well

  72. Bruno Almeida

    I spent last season saying Tatum’s amazing shooting would come down to earth and I got burnt for an entire season, but I guess I’m feeling very validated in retrospect.

    Best case scenario is for them to get the 5th seed and get destroyed by Indiana, leading to Kyrie leaving next summer.

  73. Bruno Almeida

    By the way I’m totally seeing some idiot giving D’Angelo Russell a huge contract next offseason, I just hope for all that’s sacred that Perry and Mills are not that idiot.

  74. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    Is it possible the Celtics are better without Kyrie?

    He’s a great individual offensive talent, but he’s not a good defender and he hurts the ball and player movement some of the other players seem to need to be maximize their effectiveness. The more Boston struggles, the greater the probability that Kyrie leaves – which could be good or bad for the Knicks depending on your view of Kyrie.

  75. Bruno Almeida

    I don’t think so. They were great with him last season. They’re struggling massively because Tatum is suddenly a league average shooter, and not a .600+ ts% guy, Brown has been terrible and Hayward has been very bad, plus Rozier has been playing like he shouldn’t be in the league. Even Horford is below were he was last season. Kyrie is not making those guys play worse than what they produced while playing alongside him last season.

  76. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    So I am all wrong some posters undervalue KP, but we should trade the second or third best player of the 2015 draft for a top fourteen draft pick and nothing else?

  77. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    the second or third best player of the 2015 draft

    If Porzingis, with his career .535 TS%, is the second-best player in that draft, that is an awfully low bar.

  78. Ntilakilla

    Say what you want about Atkinson being overrated but he’s got those guys playing hard in Brooklyn. A real shame that a franchise which gutted their entire roster with the worst trade in NBA history is ahead of us in their rebuild with lesser talent because of a clear organizational direction the past few years.

  79. thenoblefacehumper

    So I am all wrong some posters undervalue KP, but we should trade the second or third best player of the 2015 draft for a top fourteen draft pick and nothing else?

    In the scenario where you trade him you obviously shop around for the best possible offer, so I have no idea what that would be. It’s easy to make the idea sound unreasonable in general though if you willfully omit what I am fairly certain are the only alternatives:

    1) Let him walk for nothing
    2) Sign him to a 5/$156m contract

    I mean that’s just a staggering number. It’s a contract that almost single handedly dooms your team if it doesn’t work out. I don’t even think the most starry eyed optimists among us think it’s an unambiguously good idea. Everyone acknowledges the Knicks are in a tough spot with how Porzingis’ contract fits into their win curve, so what is the problem with raising the question?

  80. Ntilakilla

    @88

    What role do you suppose the Zion Williamson tank has in all of this? I believe the Knicks should be far more willing to play hardball with KP if they end up landing him with the #1 pick. If not, then the issue becomes a lot more complicated in terms of hitching our wagon to KP.

  81. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    If Porzingis, with his career .535 TS%, is the second-best player in that draft, that is an awfully low bar.

    KP is close to a 40% 3 point shooter, 80% FT shooter, and has the length and athleticism to finish around the basket.

    That’s the profile of a very efficient scorer.

    It’s way different than Melo’s .535 TS%. Unless Melo suddenly became a 40% 3p shooter, there wasn’t much he could do to improve his TS%. He was already getting to the basket a lot and drawing a lot of fouls (at least when he was young).

    KP’s .535 TS% is due to poor shot distribution and selection. It would only take a minor adjustment to improve his TS% without him even getting better. That’s why so many smart NBA basketball people still like him. They are all looking at the same mediocre stats, but they know how poorly KP has been used and how an increase in strength will get him to the basket more often. This is kind of like the young player debate. No guarantees, but static stats that measure the past do not value players correctly when the probabilities of improving vary.

    IMO, the only reason to consider moving KP has to do with injury risk, not potential as a player. He was a project coming in for good reason and he was ahead of schedule before getting hurt. The expectations were too high too soon and his impact on defense is being underrated, because well, boxscore.

  82. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    It’s a legitimate discussion what to do with KP and worrying he is not worth a complete max contract. That’s different from thinking he is lousy and therefore we should be eager to just get rid of him.

  83. Bruno Almeida

    Saying he’s the 2nd best player in the draft doesn’t mean anything, specially since that specific draft was so garbage in the top picks. Of course Porzingis is probably worth more than the 14th pick, it’s just a matter of if Porzingis at 156 million post injury still is. If he was in the first year of a very reasonable deal of course you don’t trade him for the 14th pick. Don’t oversimplify the argument to fit your narrative.

    Harden with 57, his second best career mark… what a damn player.

  84. thenoblefacehumper

    What role do you suppose the Zion Williamson tank has in all of this? I believe the Knicks should be far more willing to play hardball with KP if they end up landing him with the #1 pick. If not, then the issue becomes a lot more complicated in terms of hitching our wagon to KP.

    Here’s why I don’t think there will be any “hardball.”

    If the Knicks want to use a substantial part of their cap space this summer (to sign players or do anything else, like take on contracts for assets), they need to maintain KP’s $17M cap hold until they’re mostly done using the space. That means they have to get him to not sign other offer sheets.

    I just don’t see how they can entice him to do that without assuring him that the full max will be there for him when they’re done wheeling and dealing. I think he’ll be insulted by anything else and start seeking out offer sheets, which would tank the Knicks’ plan for this summer no matter what the plan is.

    This is basically exactly what the Spurs did with Kawhi in order to sign Aldridge…except they won 67 games the following season and we’re not going to do that.

  85. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    That’s the profile of a very efficient scorer.

    He is literally an inefficient scorer — categorically, empirically and factually — so I don’t know why you’re making this claim.

  86. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    @94

    He is simply claiming that those are the skills of a scorer who typically is efficient. Which they are.

  87. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    Meanwhile, Collins is looking like the next Horford – very good, solid in all aspects of the game, likely to be underrated his whole career.

  88. Ntilakilla

    This is basically exactly what the Spurs did with Kawhi in order to sign Aldridge…except they won 67 games the following season and we’re not going to do that.

    What if part of the deal is getting Durant?

  89. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    He is simply claiming that those are the skills of a scorer who typically is efficient. Which they are.

    But… he’s not.

    I feel like you guys are trying to convince me that Greta Van Fleet is Led Zeppelin.

    “They have groovy, bluesy riffs… and big roomy drums… and a wailing tenor singer… and sing about mystical bullshit… so they’re basically Led Zep.”

  90. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    He is literally an inefficient scorer — categorically, empirically and factually — so I don’t know why you’re making this claim.

    You know too much about basketball to not understand what I am saying about skill sets.

    Melo and KP have a similar TS%, but very different skill sets. Just a small addition of 3s and a small reduction of mid range shots makes KP more efficient because he can shoot 3s very effectively.

    The same would not help or work with Melo.

    KP is 7′ 3″, long, and athletic but they barely ever ran a play to get him an easy bucket even though he’s had some amazing finishes off OREBs and passes. That’s insanity. He’s a really weak guy and that hurts, but he’s close to 100% to get stronger too.

  91. Bruno Almeida

    This is where I think the two “groups” speak different languages.

    For me, having the skills of an efficient scorer means the guy is actually an efficient scorer. A skill is something that translates more often than not over a medium to long time period into production. For the people defending Knox, it seems skill and production can be seen as separate, so a player could have skill and not produce according to that skill level (or in this case, not yet produce according to it due to various circumstances).

    I understand the view point, I just can’t see skill when it doesn’t translate into production on the court consistently. It’s looking a hell of a lot like the famous Carmelo discussions where people would argue that he was a supremely skilled scorer and it didn’t translate consistently due to bad teammates / bad coaches / bad shot selection / whatever concept ruruland came up with.

    I tend to believe young players can have skills that don’t translate more often than veterans simply because there’s a lot to learn on a NBA team, from the pace of the game to the playbook, and also because of physical development until they reach their primes. However, that only means that, factually, Knox is not an efficient scorer and does not possess the skills necessary to be one; it only means he has the tools to develop them one day, which is something I agree with. If he’ll ever truly develop those, I have honestly zero idea, but obviously I hope so.

  92. Ntilakilla

    Led Zeppelin.

    Which is funny because Led Zepplin is like a shitty blues cover band who ripped their song catalog from other artists.

  93. JK47

    Yeah I mean ruru gave us ten million excuses why Melo never scored efficiently, and it was always gonna be the NEXT season when Melo had that big .600 TS% breakout because of synergy or whatever. It never happened, because Melo never really stopped being Melo. The jab steps just continued on and on into infinity, and even in his best seasons he never got much higher than .560.

    Maybe KP stops forcing up bad shots and trying to be a ruff rydah. But maybe not.

  94. geo

    flipping through the channels and came across the adam gase jets intro media conference…

    holy shit – talk about some crazy eyes…not in a scared or startled “don’t leave me alone in the room with quinn snyder” kind of way – more in a lloyd bridges “I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue” kind of way…

    wow, he looked crazy…

  95. DRed

    If Kristaps stopped taking off the dribble jump shots he’d be an efficient scorer. It’s really that simple.

  96. Z-man

    See, I think this is totally wrong. For example Durant didn’t light the world on fire as a rookie, but people would’ve been correct, both at the time and in hindsight, to cite his monstrous year at Texas as a reason he was likely to improve. Players who have put up his NCAA numbers (in major conferences) have overwhelmingly proceeded to be great NBA players.

    Durant is an extreme outlier . Not many guys have put up numbers like him (25 and 10, 47+% FG) as college freshman, like, ever. One who did was Michael Beasley.

    Most one-and-done stars guys who turn out to be stars had similar college careers to guys that never make the leap. Once they establish themselves in the NBA, college doesn’t matter any more.

  97. Z-man

    Which is funny because Led Zepplin is like a shitty blues cover band who ripped their song catalog from other artists.

    Yeah, Jowles, everyone knows that Black Dog was a ripoff of an old Muddy Waters riff…

  98. Zippy Le Pin

    Bruno has it exactly right. Some folks think skills and tools are the same thing. My 10-year-old can have a circular saw (not on his life, although he really wants one) and not use it skillfully. Melo had a whole toolbox, but only used the hammer and the slot head screwdriver. We all knew he had a phillips head in there, probably a whole wrench set. Never even took them out.

    Knox, on the other hand, is still trying to open the box.

  99. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Prime Melo highlights are pretty awesome. He really was a tall, stocky Iverson. Slashed, attacked the rim, and finished strong in the paint. Hell, the dude even dunked the shit out of the ball, which I’d nearly forgotten was a part of his game at one point.

    What you don’t see in those Denver-era highlight montages are the most difficult shot attempts regularly taken by an NBA player, which, even if he were the league’s best at them, were missed with alarming frequency.

    Porzingis might become a 7’3” James Harden, taking 95% (or whatever) of his shots at the rim and beyond the arc, instantly transforming into a guy who scores 25 PPG on .600 TS%. Or maybe he doesn’t. Right now, he’s an inefficient scorer with a glaring weakness that a bunch of dummies on Knickerblogger can diagnose and prescribe a solution to. Whether he ever has a coach that empowers him to do that is a whole other story.

  100. Ntilakilla

    Yeah, Jowles, everyone knows that Black Dog was a ripoff of an old Muddy Waters riff…

    And don’t get me started on Dazed and Confused. Jake Holmes played the damn song in a concert where Jimmy Page opened for the Yardbirds in 1967, ripped it off, and then pretended he never heard of the song before.

  101. Bruno Almeida

    I know we use Melo as an example a lot of times, but there’s many guys considered stars who never bothered to change their inefficient ways even though it was clear it was not the optimal way to play the game. Iverson himself, Kobe post-injury, McGrady, Carter, hell, even Jerry Stackhouse was paid tens of millions of dollars to chuck inefficiently for more than a decade. Westbrook is a current example, but you could also point to Paul George, John Wall, Bradley Beal, CJ McCollum, DeMar DeRozan, Andrew Wiggins, DeMarcus Cousins…

    I really think it’s much rarer to find a superstar who actually learned to stay away from inefficient shots than it is to find the success cases. A efficient superstar is more likely than not a guy who’s either incredibly physically dominant (LeBron, Giannis, Durant, Davis, prime Westbrook) and thus simply can hit shots no one else can, or supremely talented and smart (Curry, Paul, Harden, Leonard, Jokic, Nowitzki).

    I don’t think Porzingis belongs in the first group, and there’s a chance he could become a part of the second group but honestly, there’s not much about his history of production that suggests something like this. I really hope he has it, but please don’t expect me to assume he does. That doesn’t mean he’s a scrub and has no value, mind you, just that there are legitimate questions over paying this dude this much money when he might never reach those levels.

  102. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    I wouldn’t, even though I agree he’s not as efficient as he could be. He just has too good an effect on our defense.

  103. Farfa Post author

    Would you guys trade KP for Lonzo Ball?

    In a vacuum, no. But if I was certain that KP is going to get the max no matter what I’d agree for KP + Mudiay + Thomas for Lonzo + Rondo + a first and a second.

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