Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, September 2, 2014

Pelicans 103, Knicks 99

New Orleans Pelicans 103 Final
Recap | Box Score
99 New York Knicks
Kenyon Martin, PF

17 MIN | 0-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 2 AST | 3 STL | 3 BLK | 1 TO | 0 PTS | -10

Hell of an effort, old man! Way to bang with that dude with the unibrow! You know, Id have done the same thing on those Anderson threes – guy’s gotta miss sooner or later! With that weird ass hair patch thing he has going on? Shake it off, K-Mart. You’ve been around a long time and you deserve this grade for that. Its gonna get better. Promise.

Andrea Bargnani, PF

36 MIN | 5-13 FG | 7-8 FT | 7 REB | 0 AST | 2 STL | 6 BLK | 2 TO | 17 PTS | -4

I don’t like how you move around out there – it’s pretty goofy and unattractive. But good effort! Way to hit those jumpers and get those blocks! Those take a lot of energy, you know. Thats probably why you were laggin a bit on D towards the end. Things would be different if Tyson was back there, though. He really does a good job of helping guys out when they need to take a play off or even a whole quarter. But he’ll be back. Itl get better. Way to hit those jumpers and get those blocks!*

*He gets an A+ for the jumpers and the blocks

Carmelo Anthony, SF

44 MIN | 9-21 FG | 4-4 FT | 10 REB | 3 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 23 PTS | +3

I could tell you were pressing out there, big guy. You got a lot on your shoulders. Some peeps out there will give you shit for not closing out on shooters, or missing rotations, or taking bad shots. Not me. You don’t deserve this. Well rebuild around you. Well put your statue on top of the Statue of Liberty, where the flame is. Stick around. It’s gonna get better. Promise.

Raymond Felton, PG 38 MIN | 4-10 FG | 2-4 FT | 2 REB | 8 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 12 PTS | 0

Good effort, Ray! You had your jump shot going early and… well, everything pretty much went down hill after that. But don’t fret! You know your role on this team is safe. Just let me know if that goofy Italian Prigioni gives you a weird look. I’ll ship him back to Athens. Good look on that last shot, don’t worry about not hitting the corner Rook’s gonna earn his keep first! It’ll get better. They always do!

Iman Shumpert, SG

21 MIN | 3-5 FG | 0-0 FT | 7 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 7 PTS | +1

Pack your bags, punk!

Amar’e Stoudemire, PF

14 MIN | 2-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 4 PTS | +2

I still remember when you said “The Knicks are Back!” YEAH! I believed you then, and I believe you now, State. Way to take that charge that one time! And scoring on Lou Ombudsman! That was a great move, Amar’e. Use that as a boost for the next game. Or 4 games from now. Not sure what your schedule is like these days. But you should be playing more!

Pablo Prigioni, PG

10 MIN | 1-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 3 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 3 PTS | -4

I don’t like your attitude. You think because you’re from South America or whatever that you’re better than us? Why do you dribble like that all the time? You never shoot when your open! And you always open your eyes real wide like I might look and see your brain one day. Your big brain thats too cool for school. That’s another thing that drives me NUTS! Just be content with backing up Felton because you’re 36 and that’s all you’re supposed to be doing anyway. It’s just not youre year!

Tim Hardaway Jr., SG

25 MIN | 6-10 FG | 4-4 FT | 0 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 21 PTS | -6

That was a TERRIBLE shot you took down the stretch! You had Melo and JR on the court! Give it to THEM! Or even Ray! He’s a veteran! Your not a veteran, not for a few years at least. Don’t get me wrong, you’re shooting was really great and it probably kept us in the game. But don’t get greedy. That’s not what team is about. Team is about playing with TEAMMATES. That’s why it’s called A TEAM. HIT THE SHOWERS, ROOK!*

*He gets an incomplete because he’s a rookie.

J.R. Smith, SG

34 MIN | 4-11 FG | 1-1 FT | 8 REB | 3 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 12 PTS | -1

We all know what you’re capable of, JR. When you’re rusty, the ball kind of flies out of your hands sometimes – we’ve all been there! That happens all the time with these third graders I coach. Hang in there! Don’t let these losses get into your head. You’re on the court down the stretch for a reason, JR. FOR. A. REASON. That reason is you’re the 6th Man of the Year. THE ONLY ONE! One more inch off either of those last two shots, we’re celebrating with you tonight in NEW YORK CITY!

Man, that Tyreke Evans had to be a bear to handle. Such a wide load! I can see how that would be really exhausting. And your teammates should’ve given you better help defense. That’s their jobs! You need to be honest with them and tell them what you need from them so you can get back to your old self. Hold your head up. Let’s go out anyway!

Mike Woodson

I can’t even imagine what it’s like having all these basketball players to coach and teach and make into men, and then you have to go and figure out which ones play well together and which ones don’t. But to be honest, it’s not the time for experimenting with your players. Just keep rolling with whats worked in the past. We are still IN THE PLAYOFF HUNT. I know that sounds crazy! I thought you did a good job of making sure Shumpert was held accountable for yelling at a teammate. You don’t do that in the pros. That’s not professional! This isn’t Virginia Tech! You should make him do wind sprints until he passes out! Then stand over him and give him that look you give the guys when you really mean business. That should scare him straight. And don’t worry about all the talk about what lineups you use. With that lineup we had down the stretch, we win that game 9 out of 10 times. Tonight was just the 10th! We have Brooklyn on Thursday! Let’s work on making those switches a little more crisp, Coach! “Once a Knick, Go Knicks Always!”

Five Things We Saw

  1. Tyreke Evans did whatever the hell he wanted.
  2. Ryan Anderson did whatever the hell he wanted.
  3. We lost a home game to the Pelicans, who were without Anthony Davis for 95% of said game.
  4. This Pelican has hair and apparently eats straight out of vats of organs.
  5. Screen Shot 2013-12-01 at 11.03.10 PM

  6. Anthony Davis got injured in the first quarter because the Knicks somehow find a way to destroy everything and anything beautiful. Even if it doesn’t belong to them.
  7. I joked about this on Twitter pretty much at the final buzzer, but it bears repeating: If I’m Tyson Chandler, I’m not stepping a single goddam foot into a basketball shoe until every one of these clowns puts down in writing that they will heretofore name any child they have Tyson Chandler — boy or girl. It’s a joke how much this man – this seven foot, still-kind-of-awkward-moving 31-year-old man with a history of terrible injuries and only a rudimentary offensive game to speak of – means to this team. That we’ve set ourselves up to be in a position for him to mean this much to this team: That’s ridiculous. It’s insane how much Tyson Chandler means to this team. That doesn’t mean they’d be, like, 13-3 now or whatever. But Hoooooooolllly Christ. Alright. That’s all I got. I’m exhausted and I’m coming down with what feels like some kind of subtropical plague flu and there’s literally nothing we can say that hasn’t been said a thousand times already except the rookie played well and we won’t have another rookie until 2015. Good night.

156 comments on “Pelicans 103, Knicks 99

  1. JK47

    Tyson Chandler to OKC for Steven Adams, Kendrick Perkins and Jeremy Lamb. That works in the Trade Machine. That’s a trade that would probably help both teams. Perkins sucks but his contract comes off the books in 2015, and Adams and Lamb are both nice assets. Chandler is a big upgrade for OKC and probably makes them a real title contender for the next two years.

  2. maxwell_3g

    hilarious recap.
    I don’t want shump traded, but if it happens, I hope he goes Najeh Davenport in Melo’s locker (or Woodson’s desk) on his way out

  3. Zanzibar

    LMAO at recap! Jim you receive a well-deserved F- for your Carrollian wit.

    —- How I feel as a fan ————————
    “But I don’t want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
    “Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat: “we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.”
    “How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice.
    “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here.”

    —- How I feel about our future —————-
    Alice: Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?
    The Cheshire Cat: That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.
    Alice: I don’t much care where.
    The Cheshire Cat: Then it doesn’t much matter which way you go.
    Alice: …So long as I get somewhere.
    The Cheshire Cat: Oh, you’re sure to do that, if only you walk long enough.”

  4. Brian Cronin

    Chris Herring had a good point that it is hard to say that Woody wouldn’t just pull Shump for no reason anyways, so we probably shouldn’t read so much into the timing.

  5. Owen

    I kind of love that Chandler trade idea. I love Adams. He looks legit. And young and cheap.

    Obviously, not having Chandler on the team would force me to bury my Chandler jersey in a shallow grave next to my Lee jersey.

    As long as Melo gets shipped out too I am ok with it…..

    Nice recap. I wish there was an option for A++++ in Woodson’s case….

  6. JK47

    Another trade that works in the Trade Machine is Melo for Lin, Asik and Motiejunas.

    That would give Houston a starting lineup of Beverley-Harden-Parsons-Melo-Howard. Aaron Brooks would take Lin’s role. Motiejunas never plays anyway, so they won’t miss him. The trade would leave Houston a little thin at the center position, so maybe the Knicks could throw in Aldrich or K-Mart or something.

    Make those two trades and the Knicks roster would be:
    PG Lin, Felton, Prigs
    SG Lamb, JR, Hardaway, Murray
    SF MWP, Shump
    PF Motiejunas, Bargnani, Stat
    C Asik, Adams, Perkins

  7. Zanzibar

    As long as Melo gets shipped out too I am ok with it

    Not if we were to end up with Jennings and Monroe. Good for Melo, bad for us.

    Chris Herring had a good point that it is hard to say that Woody wouldn’t just pull Shump for no reason anyways, so we probably shouldn’t read so much into the timing.

    Doubt it. Woody was poised just like against Denver to play his best lineup down the stretch: Felton/Shump/JR/Melo/Bargs. He knows he needed Shump’s rebounding and defense plus he was shooting well. After the incident, he probably reasoned as follows: If I lose Melo’s support, I’m a gonner. If I put Shump in and we lose, I’m toast. If I bench Shump and we lose, I still will have Melo’s support. He made the rational decision if his chief goal is to keep his job.

  8. mase

    Um, melo for Asik and Lin? Have u lost your mind… Talk about selling low

    …Tyson for Perkins lamb and Adams … Never happen without slump , I mean shump…

  9. Owen

    “Um, melo for Asik and Lin? Have u lost your mind… Talk about selling low”

    I would love to see a plausible list of trades involving Melo

  10. JK47

    That is not selling low. That would be for a rental of Melo, since you know he’s going to pull some sort of “I’ll only sign an extension if I get traded the Heat” or some similar kind of crap. If Melo does get traded I am assuming it will be for a rental type situation, although the two other (worse) scenarios, that he either signs a massive extension here or walks out the door for nothing are far more likely.

  11. Loathing

    Melo n’ Chandler to the Clips for Griffin, De-Andre, Jared Dudley, Maliyk Wayans, and Willie Green.

    Melo to the Lakers for Gasol, Meeks and about 35 second round picks (they have about as many first rounders as we do!)

    Melo to the Warriors for Lee, Barnes n’ Ezuli.

    Melo to Sacto for Thornton, Salmons, Hayes and a bunch of first rounders.

    Melo to Phoenix for Okafor, Frye and a couple first rounders.

  12. Zanzibar

    Melo to Hawks for Millsap/Teague. Hawks then trade for Rondo giving up Schroeder/2014 1st rounder/2015 1st rounder/Brand’s expiring contract/Carroll. Hawk’s lineup would be Melo/Rondo/Horford/Korver/Lou Williams which should very competitive in weak EC. Note Hawks would still have draft picks in 2014 and 2015 since they have not only their own picks but also those of Nets in those years.

  13. massive

    Yeah, I’m just gonna hope we trade Tyson Chandler somewhere for a 2015 first round pick and play Bargs 40 minutes at center all next season. Hopefully Jabari Parker stays another year and we land him because I really think that kid is going to be the greatest player of his generation (and he’s already spoken about valuing his education).

    There will come a point in time when Tyson Chandler comes back and we win a lot of games. But until then, I’m not really watching the games. I’m disappointed I missed TH2′s great night, but a loss to the Pelicans without AD is a shame. Chandler’ll fix this. He has to.

  14. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Carmelo Anthony has proven his worth with the Knicks. No one’s dumb enough to ship out productive players for him.

  15. massive

    I disagree. Completely. This is a league where Jrue Holiday nets you two 1st round picks and KG and Paul Pierce nets you three. A Carmelo Anthony trade is probably not going to happen, but you can trade him to Golden State or either Los Angeles team and get a really nice return for a player of his status. In fact, I’d bet the Lakers would trade Pau Gasol and their 2014 1st for the opportunity to get Carmelo Anthony if they hadn’t already given the Suns three first rounders for Steve Nash.

  16. danvt

    Wow, I could almost here Jowles’ evil cackle as Ryan Anderson made three after three.

    I really thought we’d win last night. That would have preserved the narrative that these are early season struggles with no Tyson and there are better things ahead. But it’s time to face the facts. Other teams are better than we are. The cupboard is bare. We gave up too much in all our deals. NOP has four PG’s that are better than any of ours (which is why they’ll trade us Tyreke for Shump and then he’ll never make another short jumper of FT again). Our big three is now a big one and no matter how good he is he can’t do it by himself.

    Back to Jowles, who said he would take Anderson strait up for Anthony once if I’m not mistaken. IMO, if the roles were reversed no way Anderson (though he is awesome!) has all those open looks or makes 7-11. Carmelo is amazing to be able to make even close to half his looks under these circumstances. He is a bulldog and I have a lot of respect for him. NOP was just better than us 2-15 last night. We had the best player, once the unibrow went out but, who cares. Basketball is a team sport.

    Our, “We have a big three also” philosophy is an abject failure. Time to trade for cap space and draft picks. If I know Dolan though, the trade will be another in the “win now mode”. In other words, we give up Shumpert plus any picks that are left and take on salary. Then we keep losing.

  17. mase

    I got it, here’s my hypothetical melo trade, to boston for rondo and Wallace … Why would Boston do this, Ticket sales increase and Wallace contract is shed, they then have a core of green, humph rise, lee, bass melo. That’s a playoff team…. Would melo sign an extension?

  18. danvt

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/sports/football/giants-hope-late-comeback-isnt-too-late.html?hpw&rref=sports

    “We were down, but unfortunately we’ve been in this situation before,” Diehl said. “We were 0-6, too, and we had to come back from that. We know how to handle adversity.”

    The Knicks should really bring in coach Coughlin for a consultation. Last night NYK looked like they had it but were falling apart emotionally. NOP played with zero pressure on them. It happens to NY teams all the time. The home crowd is not rooting for them but instead, expecting them not to fail. The other team has, like, 1,500 people watching on TV down in Louisiana, who’ll blame a loss on the Davis injury, and move on without another thought. They start to get a feel and relish embarrassing the big city team. Gmen and the Yanks have been through all that and more. Maybe the Doally’s are to proud to learn from the big boys but they should.

  19. danvt

    You know, it’s not hard to be a good owner. You just hire someone who knows a lot more than you about the sport and then stay the fuck out of it. George Steinbrenner was a mental midget with a personality disorder and he learned how to do it. He found Gene Michael and Mark Newman and then they didn’t trade Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, or Andy Pettite.

  20. Owen

    I would rather have Anderson than Melo too. Given the ages and contracts it’s not close.

    It’s really a shame the Pelicans have so much invested in Gordon, Evans, and Holliday. Because they have two real building blocks in Davis and Anderson.

  21. tastycakes

    This is a league where Jrue Holiday nets you two 1st round picks and KG and Paul Pierce nets you three

    Word.

    I think you need to find a team more desperate than OKC or LAC — those teams are contenders as is (though Chandler to OKC makes a certain amount of sense).

    I’d target CLE and WAS. Both of these teams have idiot ownership groups that think they’re supposed to be in the playoffs three years ago despite reality. Melo for Beal + 3 first rounders? Melo for Bennett, Waiters + 3 first rounders? Both teams would get better in the short term, for sure. Both teams would have another star to pair with their “star” point guards (Kyrie might deserve it… I think John Wall is overrated but whatever)

    The point is to restock the cupboard. The team could be completely rebuilt in the draft and free agency in a couple of years and there’d be hope for the latter part of this decade.

  22. Zanzibar

    Carmelo Anthony has proven his worth with the Knicks. No one’s dumb enough to ship out productive players for him.

    But it’s not just about team overall productivity. Owners also have to consider filling seats and driving TV revenue – marquee players do that. Take my example where Hawks give up Millsap/Teague for Melo and then obtain Rondo for draft picks. Melo and Rondo may not be the best long-term strategy for the Hawks but they are players fans would rather watch. Their cache plus making Hawks real contenders for about 3 years in a weak EC might make that trade attractive to a franchise like Atlanta which historically has had trouble drawing real interest in the team.

  23. thenamestsam

    If directions about who to play are really coming from above Woodson then I hope for his damn sake he got a real nice promise about how long he’s going to get to keep this job, because he is sure as hell not going to find another one. He’s seriously committing coaching malpractice out there. I truly, truly believe that our rotations would be better if at every stoppage in play we drew five names out of a hat and those five guys played until the next stoppage.

    44 minutes for Melo should never happen in a regular season, non-OT game. 34 minutes for JR vs. 21 for Shump. 10 minutes for Prigs – just enough to show that he’s not injured and still makes the team better when he’s on the court. Only 17 for KMart (who knows what his availability is at this point, since the 38 against Indy he hasn’t been over 25 and now only 31 in the last two games combined) vs. 36 for Bargs (who did play pretty well last night, but still). Obviously no Aldrich.

    We’ve reached the point with Woodson where if I found out he was betting against his own team my reaction would be less “Holy Shit!” and more “Oh, that makes sense”. Put him and his man-crush JR on a plane to Timbuktu and tear up the return ticket.

  24. d-mar

    Wouldn’t it make sense when you go up 6 midway through the 4th quarter to put your best defensive team out there? The Pelicans only threats on offense were Anderson and maybe Holliday, so bring in Metta to shadow Anderson and put Shump on Holliday. JR admitted after the game he did a terrible job defending future HOF’er Tyreke Evans, and yet he guarded him right up until the end of the game.

    I’ve really had it with Woodson, get him out of here already.

  25. JK47

    I don’t know if MWP is injured or what, but he seems to be out of the rotation, which is ridiculous.

    I know MWP has not played well. I won’t dispute that. But the man does know how to play defense in the NBA, and he hasn’t forgotten overnight. The Knicks are 28th in the NBA in defensive rating; their defense is a putrid miasma of low-IQ brain farts. Slow rotations and closeouts abound, and their attempts to play help defense generate more comedic GIFs than they do defensive stops. Are you telling me with all of this going on that Metta World Peace cannot help this disgracefully awful defense in some way? That sending JR Smith out for 35 minutes a game is somehow a better alternative?

    I’m guessing that MWP has seen through the bullshit already, and has checked out. And I don’t blame him.

  26. JK47

    Two brilliant JR Smith quotes for y’all to chew on. In this first one, he’s talking about his knee giving him problems:

    “”I got to play better,” he said. “If it’s hurting that bad, I shouldn’t be playing. I’m out there trying to give all that I got.”

    Got that? So, his knee is hurting, and if his knee is hurting as bad as it is, he shouldn’t be playing. Yet play he does, 30+ minutes per night, on said bad knee. Okay, now the real money quote:

    “My jumper hasn’t been there. That’s a situation where I have to make my teammates better, get guys open shots, keep driving to the hole — but one thing I’m not going to do is stop shooting.”

    So, his jumper hasn’t been there, but he’s not gonna stop shooting anyway. Something something make his teammates better, but above all, keep shooting. FUCKING IDIOT.

  27. Frank O.

    You have to wonder about team fitness as well.
    Felton looked exhausted in the fourth. Slow of foot, giving up and allowing for switches that exposed Bargs and Melo, never attempting to break down a defense, content to hang around the perimeter. Remember Toney Douglass when he would dribble up to the three point line and then start falling back under guard pressure? Take a look at Felton’s ball handling in the last 10 minutes. Every time he brought up the ball, he’d get to the 3 pt line and then start falling back and moving side to side. No penetration.
    And look at JR…he fades in the end as well. He seems exhausted. And if he tries another spin move into traffic…
    As for Melo, he never gets a break, so if the dude is tired, I can’t fault him.
    This is all Woodson and game management. Felton was solid in the first period and into the second. He was dog shit in the second half. Pablo was very solid and the team came alive while he was out there, but he disappeared in the fourth.
    As did Shumpert.
    The switching is becoming infuriating.
    And the next time I hear, ‘we gotta play D,’ or ‘I don’t know what’s wrong,’ or ‘the shots aren’t falling,’ I’m gonna shut it off.
    This is a mentally and intellectually weak team, poorly coached.

  28. Frank O.

    Perhaps the Knicks can package a trade that gets rid of Amare as well?

    One way or another, the team dynamic is terrible.

  29. JK47

    Amar’e is untradeable because his on-court value is zero. The Knicks are hands down one of the worst teams in the NBA, and Amar’e is one of the worst players on the team. The only way you move him is in a Gerald Wallace trade where you take back an even worse contract.

    The smart play is unquestionably to unload Melo and Chandler, pick up a few assets, tank 2015 and hope to get a good player in the lottery. Having Amar’e and Bargs around will help a lot with the “tank 2015″ part.

  30. er

    So I have been a relative optimist thru thick and thin I guess because that’s just my personality. But for fucks sake what is wrong with Woodson? Like someone said he’s got to be betting against the Knicks. I’ll make a few points

    1) Melos minutes why did he not get a rest to start the 4th q? The Knicks were only down 4 I believe but no melo must play the WHOLE second half. SMH
    2)JR Smith. Was his playing time stipulated in the contract? Seriously. He is not a pillar of a team, there was no reason for him to play 12 mins in the 4th and shump to play 0 Fuck you bald man for that.
    3) three point defense. This has been a problem going back to last year and Anderson took full advantage of that last night. All you have to do is set a half hearted screen and you can dictate the matchup you want against the Bockers. Awful. Players aren’t willing to fight over screens and other coaches know it.
    4) confidence . Knicks have none. Melo and Timmy were the only two who were unflappable but even melo is starting to waiver.

    The Knicks have an easier sched in December but they blasically have to run the table to get back in contention lol good luck . I have been reserved to laughing myself to sleep while watching the awful help d and terrible perimeter d.

    If the Knicks try to trade melo they should look to LAL LAC or CHI

  31. SeeWhyDee77

    Dammit Shump!! It’s one thing to be playing your way out of NY, but to mouth yourself out as well? Unacceptable. Ludicrous. Asinine. Bass Ackwards. Don’t get me wrong kid, I love your spunk and the passion for defense that allegedly pushed u into your hissy fit with Melo. But..son..son..when u are playing like shit u can’t rant like that. And most certainly with the team’s best player and resident scoring champ and perennial all star. That was kinda pointless. U just put the cart before the horse and now the horse is about to kick the cart down the hill. I’m sure that if u can rediscover your game that u can be of great value to the team. But, after that spat during your slump with TH2 playing really well in your stead, you’re done as a Knick. Writing’s on the wall. An it hurts me to say it because I believe in you. Question now is who can we get for Shump now? Biyombo? I think Faried is off the table. I know Waiters is on the table but he replicates TH2 and JR. We need a big body. Is it possible to talk Ainge into givin up Rondo in a package involving STAT, Shump and Felton even if we have to take Lee and/or Wallace and Humphries?

  32. max fisher-cohen

    @Zanzibar, if he Melo went to Washington, the #LocalProduct BS that the Knicks have been overloading us with in regard to Melo (#NYMade) would at least not come off as so disingenuous. I actually like Melo in Cleveland more though as Irving is a much better off ball scorer. I actually think Kyrie, Chandler and Melo would have a title chance with the right supporting cast although I think Cleveland is content to play out the Bynum thing a while longer, which is probably smart. Dude is a top 5 player when his body and mind are right.

  33. MSA

    Kyrie, Chandler and Melo would be a nice core for Cleveland. Not sure about a title but at least some good playoff runs.

    Regarding Bynum, the guy look like is taking the Amare path of suckness.

    Turnovers and poor shooting all night long.

    At least you can say that he still play defense.

  34. Igno-Bot 3000

    When his value is at an all-time low? Why would the Knicks want to trade him?

    If they were smart, they would trade Chandler before he comes back while his perceived value is at such a high.

    Obviously they would trade Melo too. Before I said that would never happen. But I don’t think anybody, Dolan included, thought the team would be this bad. I would say there is maybe a 20% possibility of Melo being traded this season.

    The only team I could see trading for him is for the Lakers, since Melo would want to sign there long-term and they have a matching expiring contract.

    If they got Melo over to the Clippers, that would be great for basketball. Bulls are possible with Deng but I don’t see that happening.

    It’s just amusing at this point to watch this team crash and burn. I have a fleeting sense of hope that the team will think in the long-term but I can only imagine what Dolan has in mind with the panic button.

  35. thenamestsam

    I disagree dee. I think melo needs more of that

    Agreed. For one thing Shump was right in this instance. It was an incredibly lazy switch by Melo (and he clearly didn’t communicate it well on top of that since Shump didn’t react right away) which put Shump in a horrible situation leading to both the foul and the made 3. And in a larger sense if your team doesn’t have the kind of environment in which teammates (and coaches) can speak honestly to each other when one guy makes a mistake then that is a huge problem. The Knicks are never going to improve if everyone has to treat Melo with kid gloves because he’s the all-star scoring champ. Everybody needs to do better, including Melo, and he made a bad play that cost the Knicks 4 points. If Melo or Woodson or anybody else in the organization has an issue with Shump getting in his ear a little in the huddle about it then that says a lot about the organization’s priorities.

  36. Brian Cronin

    So three players broke their hands in a span of a few days (Pierce, Davis and Redick). That’s weird, right?

  37. er

    Yea it is wierd. One thing I also noticed that is wierd is the amount of shots from melo that go in and out. Is it his shooting rotation or something?

  38. Zanzibar

    Parker/Duncan have 2 years left on their contracts and Spurs imo really want to win one more chip with this group. You’d probably have better luck attempting to take a slab of meat from a lion than wrest a 1st round draft from the Spurs but anybody think they would give us their 2014 1st rounder (plus filler like de Colo and Baynes) for Prigioni and MWP? They’re veterans, Spurs showed some interest in Prigs this past off-season, and MWP’s got championship DNA.

  39. SeeWhyDee77

    Don’t get me wrong, I agree with the message. 2000%. I just don’t like the timing and delivery. Everyone from the owner down should expect better D out of Melo. But on a team devoid of yeomen, Melo has stepped up in Tyson’s absence. He is getting his ass whipped every night but is still leading the team in scoring and rebounding as the only consistent threat..with a not so healthy shoulder. And that’s why I’m upset with Shump’s timing and delivery. With all that’s going on u just can’t yell at you best player when you are averaging 7 points on 40% shooting and backcourt players are shredding your team when you are supposed to be the best perimeter defender the team has. Truthfully I’d still rather keep Shump over JR, but Shump has greater value across the league somehow. So we move him instead in hopes for a better return package. But yes..Shump’s intentions were good and I believe he is a really great teammate. I would even say he was trying to fill the leadership void. But his timing and delivery is gonna lead to even more distractions, and maybe even chemistry problems given his stature on the team or place on the totem pole. The pink slip is inevitable and I think he just made the team’s decision to move him easier. I still hold out hope that the team has a change of heart, but we gotta find a way to get better as Tyson’s return alone won’t fix everything

  40. Brian Cronin

    Herring had a stunning stat last night:

    Felton’s assisted 17 three-pointers in 425 mins. Prigioni’s assisted 15 three-pointers in 260 mins.

  41. thenamestsam

    Parker/Duncan have 2 years left on their contracts and Spurs imo really want to win one more chip with this group. You’d probably have better luck attempting to take a slab of meat from a lion than wrest a 1st round draft from the Spurs but anybody think they would give us their 2014 1st rounder (plus filler like de Colo and Baynes) for Prigioni and MWP? They’re veterans, Spurs showed some interest in Prigs this past off-season, and MWP’s got championship DNA.

    No chance unless they suffer some kind of injury, and even then probably not. I think they’d be really interested in either guy for free, but the types of guys who are pulling 1st rounders these days are mainly fringe starter types like Gortat and Scola (or Bargs if you’re the Knicks). Prigs and Metta are bench players even on a bad team (see: New York Knicks) and barely play guys on a good team. I’d consider getting a 1st for them a heist, and the odds of the Knicks being involved in a heist trade in which the other team gets heisted are vanishingly small.

  42. thenamestsam

    Herring had a stunning stat last night:

    Felton’s assisted 17 three-pointers in 425 mins. Prigioni’s assisted 15 three-pointers in 260 mins.

    Felton really has not been good this year. The saddest thing about that stat is that I don’t think Prigs has been very good this year either. I’m not sure the Knicks have a top-30 PG or a top-30 SG in the league at the moment.

  43. ephus

    Melo/JR/Woodson for Nash/Pau/D’Antoni who says no???

    David Stern & Adam Silver. Can’t include a trade of a coach in a trade of a player.

    At this point, I think the Knicks should wait until Chandler gets back to see if they can get back to the 40 wins it will take to get into the playoffs. If the answer is no, I would blow up the entire team at the deadline.

  44. SeeWhyDee77

    So I guess the real question is: does the team continue to acquiesce to Melo’s whim because he’s the last star player we’re likely to get our hands on? Or do we do what’s best and tell Melo to grow or go? That’s one helluva catch 22. Melo is the type of player worthy of building around. But at the same time, if he doesn’t like u then you’re out. And I think Shump is more valuable to the team than Melo’s whim. 3rd side of it- if we can move Shump for a player who is as good a fit or even better fit then you have to consider that too. It’s time to consider that STAT for Humphries and Wallace deal and move MWP into the starting 5. Best rotation we could possibly have even when Tyson gets back.

  45. Hubert

    Jim, just want to say great work. I wasn’t sure how this could possibly be spun without just playing the same old record. You guys have a really hard job this year because it’s the same old shit each time how can your writing not get repetitive. Kudos for the creativity.

    But you’re not with CAA, so pack your bags.

  46. WeirdJohn

    Anyone notice how completely awful the Eastern Conference is this year? There are only 3 teams in the whole conference that are at .500 or better. Indiana, Miami, and Atlanta. Conversely, in the Western conference there are only 3 teams that are below .500.

    This is a crazy year.

  47. Garson

    I think at this point the management should start gauging melos value across the league. As the weeks go on and they continue to sink, it will become vivid that carmelo will not re-sign. There is no reason why we should get nothing in return for a asset like carmelo.

    The question is , who would trade for him without a guarantee that he will re-sign. Lakers – yes, I think teams like Houston and Dallas would as well given their aggressive manuevers in the past.

  48. nicos

    Brian Cronin
    December 2, 2013 at 1:12 pm
    Herring had a stunning stat last night:

    Felton’s assisted 17 three-pointers in 425 mins. Prigioni’s assisted 15 three-pointers in 260 mins.

    I’d be interested in seeing how many lay ups each guy assisted on- Prigs is great at swinging the ball around the perimeter (and will pass up his own open looks to dish to another shooter which is idiotic and detrimental to the team since he’s the teams best 3 point shooter) but rarely penetrates and has been awful in the pnr this year with the exception of pick and pops with Bargs. I’d also be interested in how many of those assists came off of his own drive and kicks and how many came from him just moving the ball off of someone else’s penetration. There was a play last night where Stat hit him on a cut and he was two feet from the basket and was guaranteed contact and he still tried to kick the ball out to the perimeter, costing the Knicks free throws. While he did play pretty well last night (though he was -4 for it’s not like the Knicks were playing great while he was in the game) he’s basically been a glorified Duhon this year- a point guard who won’t shoot and can’t penetrate. I’m frankly baffled by people who refer to him as heady- if he was smart he’d shoot when open rather than swinging the ball to a crappier shooter like JR. His ball pressure is nice but he takes more needless fouls than anyone on the team and he’s useless defensively when switched onto bigger players which on this team happens all the time. Yes, he’d be fantastic on the Spurs but he’s sucked as bad everyone else on the team this year and he it seems like he gets a free pass here.

  49. Kahnzy

    I’ve seen some people here bandy George Karl’s name about as a possible coach to replace Woodson (notwithstanding the fact that Melo likely wouldn’t accept him anyway).

    This is a quote from Karl taken from David Aldridge’s Morning Tip article on NBA.com

    “There are days I wish [the phone] would ring and there are days I don’t want it to ring. I mean, I watch the Knicks play and I wouldn’t want to be in that hell for a million dollars. It’s just New York City and the Garden and the immensity of the pressure. I think Mike Woodson is standing up to it with tremendous integrity.”
    – Former Nuggets coach George Karl, in an interview with former Denver sports columnist Dave Krieger, on whether he’d like to coach this season.

  50. ephus

    As I wrote on last nights thread, Patrick Ewing is my first, last and only choice if Woodson is fired (and I am agnostic on firing Woodson).

    I know that Ewing has no head coaching experience and that he is not a vaunted tactician. But Ewing has cojones to an extreme, which would give him the independence to take over the team’s culture from Melo/JR Smith/CAA.

    Phil Jackson would have the gravitas to clean house, but I cannot imagine him taking this job mid-season. I cannot imagine either Van Gundy brother taking the job as long as Dolan is in charge. George Karl has made it clear that he is not interested. Lionel Hollins does not have the reputation to impose his vision on the team.

  51. maxwell_3g

    So I guess the real question is: does the team continue to acquiesce to Melo’s whim because he’s the last star player we’re likely to get our hands on? Or do we do what’s best and tell Melo to grow or go? That’s one helluva catch 22. Melo is the type of player worthy of building around. But at the same time, if he doesn’t like u then you’re out. And I think Shump is more valuable to the team than Melo’s whim. 3rd side of it- if we can move Shump for a player who is as good a fit or even better fit then you have to consider that too. It’s time to consider that STAT for Humphries and Wallace deal and move MWP into the starting 5. Best rotation we could possibly have even when Tyson gets back.

    Huh???? the LAST thing we need to do is trade amare’s 2 year deal for longer contracts. I realy would like to trade melo, but if we don’t, Im OK, as long as we don’t resign him to a long term max deal. in 2 years, we start over (without 1/2 of our picks, unless we get some for melo), butat least we wont have the bad contracts anymore and at least this failed melo-amare pairing will be in our rear view

  52. thenamestsam

    I know that Ewing has no head coaching experience and that he is not a vaunted tactician. But Ewing has cojones to an extreme, which would give him the independence to take over the team’s culture from Melo/JR Smith/CAA.

    Which is, unfortunately, probably the exact reason he wouldn’t be considered for the job. The bottom line is that no coach is going to be able to change the culture of the organization unless the people choosing that coach want it to happen. And I don’t see any evidence of that in this case.

    We can hope that a new coach might actually understand how to coach defense, or that he could get us running a real system on offense, or that he might improve the rotation in the marginal ways that are possible without upsetting the inmates who run this asylum. But to hope for a coach to change the culture in a meaningful way is putting the cart way before the horse of upper management in my opinion.

  53. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I would weep if they hired George Karl. Par for the course, though. He’ll come in as a talent evaluator, and Isiah will be head coach.

  54. tastycakes

    Why in the world does anybody think Ewing would make a good head coach? Isn’t “ability to communicate” near the top of the job requirement list?

    I don’t have a problem with Woodson. The problem is with the “talent” playing the games. Melo is a black hole. STAT is done. Chandler isn’t playing. JR might as well not be playing. Felton has reverted to Portland-level suckitude. Shump regressed. THJ is a mediocre rookie. The Artest Formerly Known As regressed. Beno isn’t even a useful backup. K-Mart regressed.

    Seriously NOBODY is playing at the level they were at last year — if anything, Bargnani, who is a terrible NBA player, is maybe the only player exceeding expectations! That tells you everything you need to know.

    Blow it up.

  55. SeeWhyDee77

    Yes I know, the extra money is troubling. But my thinking is that if the team wants to keep Melo and rebuild on the fly, then this is the best move, as no one can reasonably expect to move STAT for expiring deals. And if rebuilding on the fly is the plan, then a frontcourt rotation of Tyson/Melo/MWP/Bargnani/Kmart/Humphries/Wallace holds a lot more defensive/rebounding (what we need) potential and financial flexibility potential than our current situation. Wallace is certainly closer to rediscovering his value than STAT, and if Woodson can manage to get him in the best spots to be productive then his trade value goes back up. STAT’s trade value will probably never go up unless there’s a seriously disgruntled, high dollar star. That being said, how disgruntled is Rondo? Or..would we be ok with moving STAT in a save money package for j Smoove? I’ve always liked him at the 4, and I’m not adverse to adding his salary if the plan is to rebuild on the fly. Our Knicks are indeed in a tough spot. Kinda reminds me of that scene in The Simpsons Movie where Homer was swinging and crashing between a rock and a hard spot

  56. ephus

    @thenamestsam – I agree that it is “putting the cart before the horse” to hope that I new coach could change the culture without a change at the top. But Dolan’s desire for a “name” to fix the current mess might cause him to (accidentally) select a coach who could do exactly that. I expect that a Ewing-coached team would play defense with intensity and be held accountable every night.

    The Knicks need Tyson Chandler to be an acceptable defensive team. TC’s return is a necessary but not sufficient condition for good defense. The other Knicks need to play 24 seconds of defense on each possession.

    Here is my list of things that the Knicks need to change on D:

    1. Get back in transition and stop the ball.
    2. Know how you are going to play PnR. Everyone has to be on the same page.
    3. Don’t help off of the spot-up shooters.
    4. Don’t switch on every screen.
    5. Go below screens set for players with a weak outside shot.
    6. Protect the rim and fan out.
    7. Never foul a jump shooter.

    Amazingly, I heard Hubie Brown bellow everyone of these commands at the Knicks in 1985.

  57. dtrickey

    I get the frustartion everyone is feeling, however I really don’t think blowing up the team in the first 1/4 of the season is going to achieve anything, aside from appeasing the firebrands that say the same thing every year when the team goes through an inevitable slump. An 82 game season ebbs and flows. Does that mean we can just expect things to automatically better? Heck no, obviously changes need to made and gameplans need to be re-evaluated.

    There are some points of concern in my opinion, one being Woodsons persistence with JR, rather than persisting and developing Shump and TH2 is big, and the lack of playing defensive orientated players in the game when he’s (Woodson) made comments about getting stops. In all honesty, as ridiculous and over simplified as this sounds, I would love to see Woodson coach the closing of games with an All-Star game mentallity. Go with whoever is hot in the 4th and damn the rotation. I know it’s a lot to heap on a rookie, but how different might have that game been if TH2 was in the game instead of JR?

    I’m far from giving up on the season just yet. It’s a frustrating stretch yes, but as the old saying goes “if you are going to be with them when they win, you gotta be with them when they lose”……unfortunately they seem to be doing a bit more of the latter at the moment.

  58. ephus

    Go with whoever is hot in the 4th and damn the rotation. I know it’s a lot to heap on a rookie, but how different might have that game been if TH2 was in the game instead of JR?

    ???

    Hardaway entered with 5:50 left in the 3rd quarter and never left.

    I am not ready to give up on the season. I think the Knicks have to see if Tyson Chandler’s return allows them to get to 40 wins and a playoff birth. But, if this is not going to happen, the Knicks should blow this up at the trade deadline rather than watching Carmelo Anthony leave for nothing.

    I’m also not ready to conclude that Woodson must go (as others have). But, if the Knicks bring in a new coach, it should be about bringing accountability. That’s why I endorse the Big Fella.

  59. thenamestsam

    I agree that it is “putting the cart before the horse” to hope that I new coach could change the culture without a change at the top. But Dolan’s desire for a “name” to fix the current mess might cause him to (accidentally) select a coach who could do exactly that. I expect that a Ewing-coached team would play defense with intensity and be held accountable every night.

    It certainly doesn’t hurt to hope. It’s extremely Knicks-y that the thing we have to hope for is that our coach will get fired and the owner will accidentally make a good hire in replacing him, but here we are.

    As for your list of Knicks defensive fixes, it’s not only what Hubie was yelling at the team in ’85, it’s also what every coach of ten year-olds hollers at them to this day. And yet sadly they’re all things which have consistently escaped this year’s Knicks team. Chandler or no, I can’t see how that’s acceptable and it’s why I’m surprised when smart posters such as yourself are still agnostic about firing Woodson.

  60. ephus

    I’m agnostic because I could imagine Woodson handling Chandler’s return well. I am open to that possibility.

  61. tastycakes

    The good stretches last year coincided with high level play from both Felton and Chandler. It’s not unreasonable to imagine they’ll be a lot better if Chandler comes back strong and Felton puts down the cheeseburgers.

  62. dtrickey

    Hardaway entered with 5:50 left in the 3rd quarter and never left.

    My mistake. I didn’t get a chance to watch the replay of the game, but was under the impression that he got benched for JR. Regardless, at this stage I think I would rather see Hardaway get some burn over JR. He’s out of rythm and if he’s hurting he’s no good to us taking up minutes.

  63. Brian Cronin

    The good stretches last year coincided with high level play from both Felton and Chandler. It’s not unreasonable to imagine they’ll be a lot better if Chandler comes back strong and Felton puts down the cheeseburgers.

    Yeah, I meant to mention this last night. Felton has put some of the weight back on and it doesn’t look good. Dude was seriously huffing and puffing on routine plays in the fourth quarter.

  64. ephus

    Today’s Woodson agonies stem from (1) the losing streak compounded by (2) the perception that Woodson benched Shumpert at 5:50 of the 3rd quarter after Shumpert called out Carmelo Anthony for awful defense. So, if you did not see the game, it’s hard to appreciate today’s angst.

  65. Brian Cronin

    Today’s Woodson agonies stem from (1) the losing streak compounded by (2) the perception that Woodson benched Shumpert at 5:50 of the 3rd quarter after Shumpert called out Carmelo Anthony for awful defense. So, if you did not see the game, it’s hard to appreciate today’s angst.

    Yeah, the seemingly reactive Shump benching was a big reason for people (myself included) being mad at Woody last night. But really, looking back, the initial benching was kind of an obvious call (fourth foul mid-way through the third would see most players benched, right?). However, the idea that Shump didn’t come in for JR in the fourth at any point is indefensible.

  66. ephus

    In Woodson’s defense, Hardaway was rolling. To his detriment, Shumpert should have subbed for JR Smith.

  67. maxwell_3g

    Yes I know, the extra money is troubling. But my thinking is that if the team wants to keep Melo and rebuild on the fly, then this is the best move, as no one can reasonably expect to move STAT for expiring deals. And if rebuilding on the fly is the plan, then a frontcourt rotation of Tyson/Melo/MWP/Bargnani/Kmart/Humphries/Wallace holds a lot more defensive/rebounding (what we need) potential and financial flexibility potential than our current situation. Wallace is certainly closer to rediscovering his value than STAT, and if Woodson can manage to get him in the best spots to be productive then his trade value goes back up. STAT’s trade value will probably never go up unless there’s a seriously disgruntled, high dollar star. That being said, how disgruntled is Rondo? Or..would we be ok with moving STAT in a save money package for j Smoove? I’ve always liked him at the 4, and I’m not adverse to adding his salary if the plan is to rebuild on the fly. Our Knicks are indeed in a tough spot. Kinda reminds me of that scene in The Simpsons Movie where Homer was swinging and crashing between a rock and a hard spot

    rebuild on the fly towards what end??? hoping to contend for an 8th seed. stat gives us nothing. true. but Wallace is not even succeeding on an awful bostn team. he is not going to hop into a time machine. he is garbage. garbage with a long contract. so much so that ainge would be willing to trade him for 1 1/2 years of stat. why would we do that??? we have bitten the bullet for this long, let the contract expire

  68. maxwell_3g

    regarding the shump benching, the public perception has really surprised me. On this blog, we are mostly contrarian basketball snobs that yearn for team ball over star power (myself included). But I noticed, even on other outlets, where the readers and commenters always seem to be more “fanboyish” (like espn.com), the comments are shockingly anti-melo, anti-woodson, and pro-shump. It makes me hopeful that the fan base as a whole may see the folly (thanks clyde) of our model of team construction and locker room power distribution. maybe, just maybe, this losing streak, has invigorated a fan base educated enough to demand some sort of change. of course, maybe dolan engineers some stupid Stevie Francis vol. II trade and half the fan base gets happy again.

  69. Kikuchiyo

    Hardaway played very well last night. Do you think we should put his dad on the coaching staff as a security measure. That’s how we treat streaky 2 guards, right?

  70. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

    However, the idea that Shump didn’t come in for JR in the fourth at any point is indefensible.

    Well, that’s what “live by the JR Smith, die by the JR Smith” gets you. Last year the Knicks lived by him, this year they are dying by him. (That’s why players like JR Smith aren’t very good to live by in the first place).

  71. d-mar

    Wow, what a play Monty Williams drew up to beat the Bulls in triple OT. He had Holliday start in the backcourt, get a running start, catch the inbounds at the 3 point line and blow by the entire Chicago defense for an and one layup to end the game.

    Not sure our coach would have come up with such a play, his would have been the creative “give the ball to Melo and everyone stand around and watch him go one on one”

  72. JK47

    JR Smith has played 126 games and about 4,000 minutes for the Knicks, and the results are pedestrian at best: .511 TS%, .347 3PT%. He’s also a poor defender. When you factor in the weed suspensions, the Chris Smith roster spot, the wayward elbows in playoff games and the rumors that he’s out getting his drink on the night before some of those playoff games, it really makes you wonder whether the Knicks would have just been better off finding some other volume scoring guard with mediocre efficiency.

  73. Owen

    Some game between Portland and Indiana. Pretty remarkable what Portland has done considering the loss of both Roy and Oden.

    But I noticed, even on other outlets, where the readers and commenters always seem to be more “fanboyish” (like espn.com), the comments are shockingly anti-melo, anti-woodson, and pro-shump.

    New York fans are tired of Melo. They aren’t dumb.

  74. ruruland

    “He had Holliday start in the backcourt, get a running start, catch the inbounds at the 3 point line and blow by the entire Chicago defense for an and one layup to end the game.”

    Who’s currently capable of doing that on this roster?

    Felton?

    Can Shumpr or JR even make a layup right now?

    What’s the last lay-up Prigioni shot?

  75. ruruland

    “JR Smith has played 126 games and about 4,000 minutes for the Knicks, and the results are pedestrian at best: .511 TS%, .347 3PT%. He’s also a poor defender. ”

    Yeah, he’s pretty much been bad outside of a couple very good stretches. I’m starting to think he’s lost his shot forever. I’m not sure if it’s mechanics or lift, but he can’t shoot like he once could.

    Right now he and Amar’e are the two worst rotation players in the NBA getting 20 minutes + a game.

  76. ruruland

    ” But I noticed, even on other outlets, where the readers and commenters always seem to be more “fanboyish” (like espn.com), the comments are shockingly anti-melo, anti-woodson, and pro-shump. ”

    That’s not unusual at all, even here, even when the Knicks are winning.

    I like Shump. I think he’s been treated unfairly by Woodson . And I can understand him jumping Melo for switching those Anderson screens.

    But I’m not sure how this has turned into a Melo vs Shump thing (actually I do, Knicks fans, NY media).

    Shump has not been good on defense this year. He’s been bad on offense. He’s sulked on the bench. He’s been yelled at by teammates.

    Melo’s gone on record saying he thinks Shump is a part of the team’s future.

    It’s a fabricated controversy. The team is playing as bad as it possibly can, players are frustrated, angry, and that’s what happens.

    In the playoffs, Wade nearly choked out his head coach. They were fine later. The Heat got things turned around, kumbuya.

    Melo has been the one player this year consistently willing to take on the most responsibility — on the court, off the court. He gets paid to do that. He’s not run from that responsibility.

    He’s gotten off to a rough start on offense, but I think most objective people would say he’s playing 40 minutes a night and pouring his heart on the floor trying to help the Knicks get over the hump.

    He knows he needs to get paid less to do that so he can win more.

  77. Brian Cronin

    He knows he needs to get paid less to do that so he can win more.

    Here’s my problem with that sentiment. During the offseason, you were selling that scenario and believe you me I was definitely buying. I think that you and I differed over how much money Melo would be willing to leave on the table (I was thinking closer to $5 million a year and you seemed to believe it would be closer to $10 million a year) but I bought the notion that he was willing to leave money on the table to help the Knicks. However, that was when I thought that he would opt in. Once he announced his intention to opt out, I don’t see how you could believe that he is going to leave money on the table. No one in the history of the universe has ever opted out of a contract to re-sign with the same team for a paycut. Especially when the paycut would not even help the 2014-15 Knicks (as they’re capped out whether he takes $5 or even $10 million off of his salary). So for a while there, I was with you, but I just don’t see it happening anymore.

  78. Tony Pena

    And I wouldn’t expect Melo to leave money on the table. It’s simple, if the STAT money was spent on a star point guard and maybe some backup bigs, the team would be set.

  79. EB

    And I wouldn’t expect Melo to leave money on the table. It’s simple, if the STAT money was spent on a star point guard and maybe some backup bigs, the team would be set.

    The stat money has nothing to do with it. The Knicks have a backup center and had a star point guard even with STAT.

  80. Tony Pena

    Maybe so. But the team wasn’t constructed with any type of vision. It should have been STAT or Melo. If it was Melo they should’ve had the foresight to ship Stat that next off-season. Remember the “Broadway Bigs? Lol, all those bigs without any real guards= clumsy basketball.

  81. MSA

    And now that Utah won last night the Knicks are tied for the worst record in the league.

    If somehow the first pick goes to the Nuggets, they better not do the draft in New York. Because it’s not gonna be beautiful.

  82. er

    I mean the Knicks are FOUR losses out of third place in the east. So let’s wait and see on this missing the playoffs thing

  83. d-mar

    I feel like we’re in a no win situation on Thursday. If the Knicks win, Woody probably keeps his job. If the Nets blow our doors off, I would think that would be the last game for our beloved coach. So as much as I can’t take Woodson anymore, the idea of getting our butts kicked by Brooklyn is very hard to swallow also.

  84. Hubert

    ephus December 2, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    As I wrote on last nights thread, Patrick Ewing is my first, last and only choice if Woodson is fired (and I am agnostic on firing Woodson).

    I know that Ewing has no head coaching experience and that he is not a vaunted tactician. But Ewing has cojones to an extreme, which would give him the independence to take over the team’s culture from Melo/JR Smith/CAA.

    I love the sentiment, but the Garden is a political machine. Ewing has the cojones, but not the smarts. He’d get outplayed.

    I have an amazing analogy if you watch Game of Thrones: Ewing would be Ned Stark. Full of muscle and bravery, woefully incapable to play the games required. And they’d end up the same way.

  85. thenamestsam

    Wow, looks like Portland is l-e-g-i-t legit.

    Man, I am so impressed with them. And you know what? That’s a pretty good roster, but it also shows how much of a difference good coaching can make. They run a real system on both ends of the court and are committed to finding high percentage shots on every possession on offense and preventing the highest percentage looks on defense. All the players are on the same page about what they’re trying to do and it freaking shows. The gulf in quality between a guy like Stotts and Woodson is just an absolute joke. And not the funny kind.

    Also, how about that Paul George? The amount that he’s exceeded where I had mentally put his ceiling is astonishing, and he just keeps getting better and better. I think he’s a top-5 player in the league this year, and I’m not sure that he isn’t my current #3. And he doesn’t turn 24 until May. Man, do you guys remember when the Knicks were almost as good as the Pacers? Feels like a while ago doesn’t it.

  86. cgreene

    Maybe Ewing’s lack of politics would be a benefit for him. He’d just do what he thought was best to win all the time and wouldn’t really think of anything else let the chips fall where they may.

    Ruru, what do you hear of the coaching situation? JVG possibility is all over the media today which is actually unfortunate bc it’s going to force him to deny bc he has that never go after another coach’s job thing in his head.

  87. DRed

    As I see it, here are the problems facing the Knicks as an organization right now

    1. Lack of a coherent long term team building strategy
    2. Poor roster construction
    3. Tyson Chandler has a broken leg
    4. Poor roster utilization

    Of them, Woodson can really only help with 4. So yes, if we fired Woodson and IF we hired a better coach (a big if, obviously), we could expect to start winning more. But it would still be a case of shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.

  88. DRed

    Shump has not been good on defense this year. He’s been bad on offense. He’s sulked on the bench. He’s been yelled at by teammates.

    I don’t even know where to begin when apportioning blame for our team wide defensive collapse (although I suspect it begins with the letter B). I don’t know enough about the team dynamics to know who to blame for infighting, or sulking, but we’ve sucked this year, so it’s natural. Which brings us to offense. Shump is (surprisingly) shooting much better at the rim this season, but much worse on jumpshots. The percentage of assisted jump shots he’s taking has also collapsed. His TS% is where it was last season, but he’s taken a totally different path to the summit of Mt. Slightly Inefficient Scoring.

    So what’s to blame for Shump taking more unassisted jump shots? Coaching? Players not running the offense properly? Do we not have the players to do what we did last year? I don’t know. What I do know is that Shump hasn’t really been that bad this year. He’s probably been, on balance, one of our better players.

  89. Hubert

    ruruland
    December 3, 2013 at 1:53 am
    But I’m not sure how this has turned into a Melo vs Shump thing (actually I do, Knicks fans, NY media).

    It’s not a Melo v Shump thing, IMO. It’s a Woodson thing. He is cultivating an environment of tolerance towards his guys that brings out the worst in Melo and JR and is sinking the team.

    I’m not trying to be anti-Melo. I get that he has accepted a gargantuan workload to start the season, minutes-wise, and get that he can’t go all out on every play. Of course, that’s ALSO a Woodson issue.

    And it’s not like we wanted Shump to replace Melo. We wanted him in for the completely terrible JR Smith. But he’s Woody’s guy so that was never going to happen.

    I don’t know how anyone can be agnostic about Woodson or think Felton and Chandler can save us. As long as he is beholden to JR, as long as he doesn’t force his players to fight through screens, as long as the only player he holds accountable is Shumpert, as long as he plays AB & JR together when we need stops, and as long as Pablo is in exile, we are fucked. Those are all things that show no signs of changing and improved play from anyone else isn’t going to fix that.

    The guy is an albatross.

  90. ephus

    I don’t know how anyone can be agnostic about Woodson or think Felton and Chandler can save us.

    Since I wrote that I was “agnostic” on replacing Woodson until Chandler returns, let me explain my thinking.

    1. Agnostic does not mean against. If Woodson is replaced after another loss, I will neither be for or against the decision, per se. My reaction would depend on who is brought in as the new coach. I really do not want to see Hollins or Dunleavy.

    2. During the last 24 games of 2011-12, Woodson led the Knicks to an 18-6 record with Tyson Chandler deservedly winning the DPOY. The team defense functioned despite Amar’e playing around 30 mpg.

    3. Woodson led the 2012-13 Knicks to 54 wins and the second round of the playoffs. Despite Chandler playing hurt most of the year, the Knicks defense functioned reasonably well with JR Smith getting 33.5 mpg.

    4. The Knicks switched on almost everything for most of last year.

    5. The switching does not work when it forces Bargnani to play in space or protect the rim against a penetrating guard. There are things that Bargnani does well on defense (on-ball post defense) but the things he does not do well, he does horribly.

    6. If Woodson is still here when Chandler returns, we will see whether he has a defensive scheme that allows Bargnani (and Stoudamire) to be protected from their defensive flaws. We will also see whether Woodson finally starts to limit the minutes for Melo (because 40+ is too much for anyone) and JR Smith (because he has been awful).

  91. d-mar

    I’ve generally given Woodson the benefit of the doubt because of the 54 wins last season, but his handling of JR and Shump is just atrocious. There’s no doubt in my mind that a better coach would have figured out a way to win that Pelicans game, it was there for the taking, their best player was out and we knew exactly who they would go to for points. A completely mismanaged 4th quarter.

    Also, I do question his offensive creativity as well. I watched all 3 overtimes of the Bulls-Pelicans game, and each coach drew up plays out of timeouts at the end of the overtimes that resulted in high percentage shots (and not necessarily by their best offensive player) Yes, Melo is our best option on offense, but it doesn’t mean you can’t run some kind of play to free him up (or God forbid, use him as a decoy to free someone else up) Instead, we watch Melo dribble out the clock and force a contested shot at the end of every close game. Not working too well.

  92. Frank

    I love my Knicks but I really want them to get blown out Thursday. Short of that, I’m not sure Dolan lets Woodson go. There are a lot of problems with this team but there is no way a team with this level of talent should have anywhere near the worst record in the NBA. His junking of the 2 PG lineup was semi-defensible in the beginning of the year, but it’s completely indefensible now. Amare and JR are among the worst players in the NBA right now. They have to sit. The switching thing is awful. IMHO the coach decides on the system to be run on both sides of the ball, and also who plays how many minutes. He is doing a horrific job on offensive system (all iso), defensive system (switching) and minutes distribution. There is literally nothing he is doing well other than holding JR as un-accountable as possible. Is this JR infatuation an edict from above? Then QUIT. SAVE YOUR INTEGRITY. Because unless Woodson does that, he’ll never get another head coaching job in this league. Between how unimaginative he looked in Atl and now here, he’ll never get another shot.

    The problem is- good talent is always important but deep in the playoffs, coaching matters. Can anyone imagine Woodson holding his own against Pop? Or even Spoelstra?

    Berman hinted today that JVG might be on the short list if Woodson was fired. That would be my happiest day as a knick fan in a very long time.

  93. thenamestsam

    He is doing a horrific job on offensive system (all iso), defensive system (switching) and minutes distribution. There is literally nothing he is doing well other than holding JR as un-accountable as possible.

    All of this is true, and I would add that we routinely come out unready to play to start the game (outscored by 14.5 points per 48 minutes in the 1st quarter according to Herring’s piece today) and are unable to make successful halftime adjustments (outscored by 15.5 points per 48 in the 3rd quarter). I defy anyone to point to a thing that he is doing well as the coach of this team.

    2. During the last 24 games of 2011-12, Woodson led the Knicks to an 18-6 record with Tyson Chandler deservedly winning the DPOY. The team defense functioned despite Amar’e playing around 30 mpg.

    They were quite good defensively under Dantoni that year as well though. How much credit to give to Woodson vs. Dantoni is debateable, but our defense has done nothing but get worse since. At the very least he has to share credit on this one.

    3. Woodson led the 2012-13 Knicks to 54 wins and the second round of the playoffs. Despite Chandler playing hurt most of the year, the Knicks defense functioned reasonably well with JR Smith getting 33.5 mpg.

    “Reasonably well” seems a little generous for 18th in the league, no? Almost all of us expected last year’s team to be significantly better on D than they were, so I can’t see how he earns many kudos there. Which brings us to this helpful factoid from Herring:

    In his seven full seasons as a head coach, he’s never overseen a team that finished in the league’s top-10 in defensive efficiency. (For context, since 1973, there have been 48 other coaches who’ve coached as long as Woodson has. And 43 of those coaches, or nearly 90% of them, have led at least one team to a top-10 finish in defense, per Stats LLC.)

  94. flossy

    Yeah, I don’t think firing Woodson is going to “save” the season, although I guess it depends on what your expectations are or were. In this joke of a conference, a healthy Chandler could propel them to a low playoff seed, but I think it’s become clear that we were all kidding ourselves when we thought the Knicks were fit to challenge Indy or Miami.

    But yeah, Woodson should get the ax, if only to demonstrate that rank incompetence is not acceptable. It’s one thing to struggle without Chandler, but his professional negligence has allowed what is still a fairly talented group of players to be the worst team in the NBA. It’s also firmly rienforced the notion that last year’s success was basically an accident–that the line-up innovation and ball movement happened in spite of Woodson and not because of him.

    Put me down in the “hope the Nets blow us out by 40 and Woodson is gone by the weekend” camp.

  95. Hubert

    Ephus, I wasn’t necessarily singling you out. I just liked the word! And I know exactly what you meant by it.

    Here’s my thinking:

    There is SO MUCH low hanging fruit that even a semi-competent coach can come in here and turn a lot around.

    Woodson’s problem is process. He doesn’t analyze, so he doesn’t identify the problems that need to be fixed. We’re losing because we’re playing too much ISO, he responds by putting more rebounders in the game. We turn the ball over too much in the 4Q, he stays with JR. We can’t get stops, he plays AB.

    And that Lowe piece said it all. These problems are so basic that a competent coach can fix them as soon as they walk in the door. If you told me that if Brooklyn beat the Knicks we would replace Woodson with a Van Gundy brother or anyone competent, I would root for Paul Pierce to step off the bench with a cast on and hit a step back game winning three and run 9 victory laps while blowing kisses.

    This team needs a coach. A real coach. Not Chandler (although he would help, he would just mask the problems), a coach.

  96. Hubert

    And the things he says are RIDICULOUS. There was the quote the other day:

    “we did everything we needed to do last year based on our defense first then rebounding the ball and then we went and played offense.”

    HE DOESN’T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO ATTRIBUTE OUR SUCCESS TO! How can he possibly help us find it again? It has become so obvious that we lucked into our best lineups through injuries and the veterans were the ones who held guys accountable last year. This guy does not deserve to be here.

    The only reason to be agnostic is the fear of who Dolan would bring in next. That is completely fair. Anyone who remembers replacing Layden with Isiah knows that fear well.

  97. tastycakes

    +1 to Ephus.

    Hubert, come on man, coaching is also a political / public relations job, you get asked stupid questions all the time and pretty much have to spit out concise non-answers. Judge the coach by the way he directs the team — certainly there is valid criticism to be made there — but media quotes, seriously, they’re meaningless.

  98. JK47

    Whatever it takes for Carmelo Anthony not to get a max contract from the Knicks at the end of the season, that’s what I’m in favor of. I don’t mind being irrelevant through 2015 but a Melo max contract dooms the Knicks until what, 2019? STOP THE INSANITY

  99. DRed

    Yeah, you can’t take anything a coach says to the media too seriously, especially not a coach of a team with a PR department like the Knicks.

  100. Hubert

    tastycakes
    December 3, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    Judge the coach by the way he directs the team but media quotes, seriously, they’re meaningless.

    But the way he directs the team indicates that those are not just quotes.

    Come on. At no point this season (or in last season’s playoffs, for that matter) has he directed the team in a way that indicates he understood what made us successful last year.

    In fact, he’s done just the opposite.

    You cannot tell me “they’re just quotes” when the quotes mirror his actions.

  101. DRed

    But the way he directs the team indicates that those are not just quotes.

    Come on. At no point this season (or in last season’s playoffs, for that matter) has he directed the team in a way that indicates he understood what made us successful last year.

    In fact, he’s done just the opposite.

    You cannot tell me “they’re just quotes” when the quotes mirror his actions.

    Maybe. But maybe not. For example he could actually believe “we did everything we needed to do last year based on our defense first then rebounding the ball and then we went and played offense” and that playing JR and Bargnani will help our defense and rebounding. Or he may have been ordered by the front office to play JR and Bargnani big minutes and is trying to come up with some innocuous soundbite to justify his playing time decisions. Or maybe it’s something else. I mean, if Woodson honestly believes our success last year was because of our defense and rebounding, why would he be playing Stat and Bargs?

  102. Eternal OptiKnist

    First of all…amazing writeup!!!

    There are so many posts in this thread so i dont know who might have said these things..but there are a few things i just wanted to wholehartedly agree with:

    1) I can see why shump has pissed off some of those in the organization. While i love his attitude and moxie, he appears to be a bit big for his britches. He played great defense as a rookie and hit a couple threes in game 6 last year. While i think he was right that Melo blew a play leading to 4 pts, has he earned the right to talk shit? When he fucked up the Indy game 2 weeks ago, Woody threw him under the bus but Melo didnt. If he was playing well, maybe he could talk..but face it guys, he sucks this year. But that being said, the way JR is playing, i dont see how he could be benched in the 4th the other day. Kinda shocking.

    2) Chandler is not going to save this team. Even with him, we are mediocre on defense…and he’s not a leader either unfortunately. What happened to the Felton, Pablo, Shump, Melo, Kmart lineup that won 13 straight without tyson last year??? Why has that not even been attempted??? maddening.

    3) Dear sweet Woody. You’re talent is managing personalities, building guys up and getting the most out of your talent from an effort standpoint…i havent forgotten 18-6 or 54-28, but the problems we have now are grounded in Xs and Os and you SUCK so badly at it that its laughable. Oh, and you are NOT a defensive coach despite your appearance and tone of voice suggesting otherwise. So while i dont think you’ve lost the team, you’re getting close.

  103. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

    Melo’s gone on record saying he thinks Shump is a part of the team’s future.

    …But Melo hasn’t gone on record saying that Melo is a part of the team’s future. How can he speak for Shump but not himself?

  104. Eternal OptiKnist

    and for fuck’s sake, Jeff Van Gundy is not a rumor…its Marc Berman speculating based on nothing! I also was pleased to hear JVG say what he said to michael k last year..it potentially clears the path for JVG to one day to return when the knicks are ready, but that is clearly a long….long..long way off. Its embarassing, that that is even out there as a “rumor”.

  105. Zanzibar

    Berman hinted today that JVG might be on the short list if Woodson was fired.

    Dolan fears more than anything else a Nets turnaround while Knicks are mired in mediocrity the next 2 years. That fear after all smoked him out of his rat hole to give an interview for the first time in a decade. He realizes that fans might start to leave in droves (just like his Cablevision customers) and TV revenue will plummet. I’m rooting for Nets to blow us out and JD to go into a complete panic. Maybe, just maybe, he hires a top coach like one of the VG brothers and tells him to coach solely to win and not worry about Melo/JR/CAA etc. Heck I would like SVG to be head coach (successfully implemented spread offense) and JVG to be his defensive coordinator.

  106. Hubert

    Or maybe it’s something else. I mean, if Woodson honestly believes our success last year was because of our defense and rebounding, why would he be playing Stat and Bargs?

    Because he doesn’t believe in statistics. He’s made that very clear. He doesn’t believe that you if you want rebounding you should play lineups that post high DRB% when you play them together because “all those lineup stats, that’s still up in the air”. He believes that if you want to rebound, you should play tall people.

    I really believe his thought process is that simple. We would rebound better with small lineups that don’t include AB than big lineups that include AB. But he doesn’t go to them when he needs to because he thinks they’ll get outrebounded because they aren’t tall. (They just rebound better.)

    It’s the thought process that is broken. That’s why it can’t be fixed. Sure, Tyson Chandler can come back and make a lot of things better. But that will just mask the problems.

  107. JoMo

    Has no one seen this Begley article on ESPN? This quote is just utterly baffling:

    So the front office, naturally, has been doing its best to increase Shumpert’s trade value in its discussions with potential suitors. It has played up the fact that he’s young, on a cheap contract and a two-way player.

    According to league sources with knowledge of the team’s talks with potential trade partners, president/GM Steve Mills’ management team has also cited Mike Woodson’s coaching as one reason for Shumpert’s poor play.

    “They’re saying that Shumpert’s a better player [than he's shown] but Woodson isn’t using him right,” one league source said.

    If true, that’s a direct indictment of Woodson from the FO, yet their strategy is to move potential as opposed to cutting loose a problem. This is just fucking maddening. The foolish, petty whims of an owner who inherited his riches as opposed to earning them, thus lacking any logic or foresight. This is the definition of misery for a fanbase.

  108. Zanzibar

    Yeah, he’s pretty much been bad outside of a couple very good stretches. I’m starting to think he’s lost his shot forever.

    At the heart of his drop-off imo is playing in half-court offense vs transition ball. I was one of the few here who opposed re-signing JR. I, however, was caught up in that swoon when he played so well for that month that I felt he might have turned the corner but his abysmal playoff performance changed my mind. But now I feel that there is a way for him to very valuable to this team maybe even leading me to conclude I was wrong about not re-signing him.

    Our best lineup of Felton/JR/Shump/Melo/Bargs has played 93 minutes and has an Offensive PPP of 1.137 compared to Defensive PPP of .966. That unit ranks 12th out of 44 lineups in plus/minus (>=13 mpg average). Why is JR so valuable in that lineup? First, he’s always been an exceptional rebounder and he, Shump, Melo are critical to make up for Bargs deficiency in that area. Second, a max spread offense allows him to attack more effectively, playing to his strength because he’s always had good body control and a soft touch at the rim. Third, he could be devastating shooting 3s from the corner right (4 out of the last 5 years he’s shot over 40% and 3 of those years he’s shot 45%, 51%, and 59%!). Those shots would be generated through Felton drive-and-kicks and Melo ISOs/Post-ups.

    The key would be to only play him in that lineup or similar ones and use him in PnR and PnPop to get him a step to attack the rim. Never ISO unless match-up advantage or clock <5 seconds. If he strays, bench him. If he plays loose defense, bench him. If none of this works, send him to D-League and hope he doesn't exercise player option in 2015.

  109. BigBlueAL

    That article by Begley saying the Knicks are telling other teams that Shump is a better player than he has shown this season because Woodson doesnt know how to use him is the most Knicks thing ever lol.

  110. thenamestsam

    You really wonder what executives from other teams think when they get these calls from the Knicks. I bet when they hang up they just laugh and laugh.

  111. DRed

    It also could be as simple as Mills saying something like “We really like Shumpert, but he doesn’t fit into Woodson’s system, so we’re looking to trade him for a guy who does”. Knowing the Knicks, though, it’s probably not.

  112. Hubert

    The thing about the Nets game, and veterans of the Isiah years know this:

    Anything good can be terrible. If we win this game, and Dolan is pleased, and makes up his mind that night that woodson is staying, we can lose another 30 straight games and Woodson will stay.

    This is why that Pacers “moral victory” was arguably the worst result of the year.

  113. ephus

    the most Knicks thing ever

    I beg to differ. Here are ten self-defeating things that could not be justified even at the moment they occurred.

    10. Signing Jerome James to the full MLE during the same off-season as trading for Eddy Curry.

    9. Spending $40 million to have Larry Brown coach a team where he did not control the roster.

    8. Signing Chris Smith to a rookie contract that he did not deserve as a way to placate JR Smith — without explaining to Dolan (according to the NY Post) that he would cost $3 million when the luxury tax was included.

    7. Taking the Anucha Brown Sanders case to trial.

    6. Dolan taking over the Carmelo Anthony trade negotiations from Donnie Walsh.

    5. Sending away Bernard King in order to sign Sidney Green (a poor man’s Oakley).

    4. Sending away Walt Frazier as compensation to sign Jim Cleamons (an inferior point guard) from Cleveland.

    3. Extending Isiah Thomas’ contract for getting the Knicks into playoff contention a month before the end of the season — and then watching the Knicks go 5 – 15 the rest of the season.

    2. Using Penny Hardaway’s expiring contract to trade for Steve Francis when the Knicks already had Stephon Marbury.

    1. Trading away Patrick Ewing for Luc Longley, Glenn Rice, Travis Knight and a bunch of filler because Dolan could not deal with letting Patrick walk after the 2000-01 season.

  114. dtrickey

    I think it’s more me hating losing, but the thought of people hoping the Nets pound us so the coach gets fired irks me a lot. I can appreciate the arguments and frustrations behind it, but I don’t think that’s the attitude I’ll take into Fridays game (I think it’s Thursday, but it’s late Friday morning for us).

    I also watched the Bulls v Pelicans marathon last night, and I am less frustarted about Ryan Anderson having a big one against us. The guy was hitting jumpers with Noah in his face and seriously never looked like missing a 3 (except maybe in OT, but you can chalk that up to playing 50+ minutes)

  115. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

    Nice list, Ephus. But this:

    Signing Jerome James to the full MLE during the same off-season as trading for Eddy Curry.

    does not belong on the list. When Isiah signed James, he was the best center on the market, and Isiah was given the full mid-level to improve the team. It wasn’t until 3 months later that Curry refused his team-mandated DNA test, forcing Chicago to trade him. So not acquiring Curry (clearly the better basketball player at the time) because they already had James would have really been the “most Knick thing ever”. (remember, it was only in hind-sight that Curry was a disaster, and the only Isiah-level hubris Isiah committed was not lottery protecting the picks, and then subsequently over-seeing the Larry Brown (see #9 on the list above) 23 win debacle (which was, of course, further compounded by #2 on the list above).

    So, I move to strike #10 from the list.

    And in it’s place as “most Knick thing ever” I’d like to submit: The $30,000,000 Isiah spent on acquiring a 2006 draft pick ($15 mil for Jalen Rose + $15 mil in luxury tax), only to blow it on Renaldo Balkman, a player he subsequently “Shumped” (v, to destroy the value of an appreciating asset for no apparent reason).

  116. ephus

    In defense of the James/Curry signings as #10 on “Most Knicks Ever”, Jerome James was coming off of a season where he averaged 4.9 ppg and 3.0 rpg. James’ /36 stats were just as bad. In his best season, Jerome James averaged 5.4 ppg/4.3 rpg. So, the James signing never made any sense.

    The thing that makes this one bang my head and say, “Why am I a Knicks fan?” was when Isiah brought in Curry without shipping out James. Those two could never co-exist.

    I do not mean to slight the stupidity of the Knicks action with Jalen Rose/Balkman. In fact, I think you left out the worst parts:

    A. The Knicks could have used the Balkman pick (#20) on Rajon Rondo.
    B. Nobody else had Balkman as a first round pick.
    C. The Knicks could have used the #29 pick in the first round to get Balkman.
    D. The Knicks were looking for a PG – as demonstrated by their selection of Mardy Collins with the #29.

    I’m not sure I go along with Isiah destroying Balkman’s value for no apparent reason. By many accounts, Balkman was a severe head case who put JR Smith to shame.

  117. DRed

    When Isiah signed James, he was the best center on the market just done with playing the only good 11 game stretch of basketball he would ever play.

  118. DRed

    As for the most Knicks thing in relatively recent Knicks history, I would vote for Isiah paying Larry Brown 30 million dollars to win 23 games before firing him to hire himself.

  119. Hubert

    I move to call it “the most Dolan thing ever”.

    To me, “the most Knicks thing ever” is the no layup rule enforced by Oakley Mason McDaniel and Ewing.

    To the lucky ones, it’s beautiful ball movement culminating in an open shut.

    These are just the most Dolan things ever.

    And for the record, the most Dolan thing ever was giving Isiah an extension as coach and GM to reward him for getting the team within 3 games of the 8 seed with 20 some odd games to go (or something):

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/sports/basketball/12isiah.html?_r=0

    That’s the press release from the time. So funny listening to Dolan’s logic.

  120. Hubert

    Or maybe it was when he said he liked the 2001 team (30-52, first team to miss playoffs in decades) better than the 99 team that made the finals because “the communication on that team was terrible” (JVG, Grunfeld, and Checketts feuded) while “these guys [Cheney, Layden] all like each other and get along.”

    (I’m paraphrasing the quotes but they’re very close.)

  121. ephus

    If we change it to the “Most Dolan Thing Ever”, then #4 (dumping Frazier) and #5 (dumping Bernard King) have to come off of the list. I would substitute the Jalen Rose/Balkman/2006 Draft as #9, and bump everything from #10 – #6 up by two spaces, which leaves an opening at #10.

    Top Ten Most Dolan Moves

    10. Trading for Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley in the summer of 2001 at contracts that never made any sense.

    9. Spending $30 million (Jalen Rose ($15 million) + luxury tax) to acquire a 2006 first round draft pick and then using that pick (#20) on Renaldo Balkman (not a first round prospect) over Rajon Rondo (and Kyle Lowry) when the Knicks (a) were looking for a PG and (b) had the #29 to use on Balkman.

    8. Signing Jerome James to the full MLE during the same off-season as trading for Eddy Curry.

    7. Spending $40 million to have Larry Brown coach a team where he did not control the roster.

    6. Signing Chris Smith to a rookie contract that he did not deserve as a way to placate JR Smith — without explaining to Dolan (according to the NY Post) that he would cost $3 million when the luxury tax was included.

    5. Taking the Anucha Brown Sanders case to trial.

    4. Dolan taking over the Carmelo Anthony trade negotiations from Donnie Walsh.

    3. Extending Isiah Thomas’ contract for getting the Knicks into playoff contention a month before the end of the season — and then watching the Knicks go 5 – 15 the rest of the season.

    2. Using Penny Hardaway’s expiring contract to trade for Steve Francis when the Knicks already had Stephon Marbury.

    1. Trading away Patrick Ewing for Luc Longley, Glenn Rice, Travis Knight and a bunch of filler because Dolan could not deal with letting Patrick walk after the 2000-01 season.

  122. thenamestsam

    Hey, at least the Nets are apparently determined to be every bit as dysfunctional as we are. Kidd basically getting rid of Frank 15 games after making him the highest paid assistant in the league (and supposedly only getting the job because he was going to have a very experienced staff)is definitely a move worthy of being on some kind of biggest mistakes moves. I think it was Hubert who said before the season that Kidd was a real question mark for that team so props for that (if it was you). I’m very thankful for their foibles at the moment. The way our season is going if they were good I’m not sure I could take it.

  123. Donnie Walsh

    at least the Nets are determined to be every bit as dysfunctional as the Knicks…

    Tune in Thursday night to see what happens when two train wrecks collide!

  124. ruruland

    “But Melo hasn’t gone on record saying that Melo is a part of the team’s future. How can he speak for Shump but not himself?”

    Yes he has.

  125. Owen

    “(remember, it was only in hind-sight that Curry was a disaster, and the only Isiah-level hubris Isiah committed was not lottery protecting the picks, and then subsequently over-seeing the Larry Brown (see #9 on the list above) 23 win debacle (which was, of course, further compounded by #2 on the list above).”

    The Eddy Curry trade was a very foreseeable disaster. He simply wasn’t close to a good player when we traded for him. I know that because The Eddy Curry Study was how I landed on this site.

    http://knickerblogger.net/the-eddy-curry-study/

    It’s still a great read. Here is a taste….

    Camby and Williams show that it’s not impossible for Curry to become a strong rebounder. However if you’re going to start to tout Curry as a future All Star, you might want to preface your statement with something to the effect of being a blind optimist who will be winning the lotto in the near future.

    It was clear it was a disastrous trade when we made it. All that we gained through hindsight was a final delineation of the full Hindenburg nature of the calamity.

  126. Hubert

    I kinda predicted everything that’s happening with the nets right now but not really in the mood to take a bow. I also predicted we would still be just as good as Indiana.

  127. mokers

    Want to thank everybody here for going through this slog of a season and making it interesting. Want to thank all of the writers again for putting in hard work. It is difficult enough to do when the team is playing well, but doing this when the team is no fun to watch takes a lot of effort.

    I’ve always said that I would be an optimist for the Knicks until they have given me reason to think otherwise. Obviously the season has given me plenty of that.

    For me it starts with the coach. Yes, he is but a puppet for Dolan/CAA/The Stonecutters, but he has an extension. He should be playing who he thinks will win games, not who he thinks will keep his job. If he gets fired, he has plenty of Dolan’s money to hang on to. So get fired because you are doing things the way you want.

    Of course it could be that this is how Woodson would play it. In that case, he still needs to be fired because he is doing a terrible job. As somebody said earlier, it is stupid to not be developing THJ and Shump at the expense of running a beat Felton and lost JR Smith out there every night.

    I’ve mentioned that I am a huge Melo fan. I think he could play better, but I think it is also almost impossible for him to do so while leading the league in minutes at his age. Again, I am not buying into all of the conspiracy theories, but I think a lot of problems would be compounded by giving him a max deal this year. He would likely bring in the biggest haul of players/picks, so while I think you give the entire team until the ASB to get things together, the other biggest mistake would not be getting any value from him.

    As for Shump, I love his passion, but overall his defense has sucked this year. I don’t blame him at all for the Paul George foul, but the problems on defense start with our guards going for too many steals in the backcourt. I would think he would do better in a different system, but I don’t think he should be calling people out for defense.

  128. Donnie Walsh

    I’m not sure I go along with Isiah destroying Balkman’s value for no apparent reason. By many accounts, Balkman was a severe head case who put JR Smith to shame.

    I don’t know, I think Balkman was in his third year, had shown himself to be highly productive, and KBers were hoping he’d “make the jump” to an elite defender in the league. Then Isiah stopped playing him and started trashing him in the media without explanation. Sounds a lot like a shumpin’ to me!

  129. Donnie Walsh

    Yes he has.

    Before or after he said he’d opt out? (And before or after you came here and said that of the losing continues you could see Carmelo ask to be traded?)

  130. DRed

    That Curry piece is hillario-tragic with the benefit of hindsight. I think my favorite comment is the guy who explains that as Malcolm Gladwell told Bill Simmons, Eddy Curry is too scared of failure to succeed. Or maybe he was a guy who just wasn’t good at rebounding and resisting seconds at the buffet.

  131. Donnie Walsh

    The Eddy Curry trade was a very foreseeable disaster. He simply wasn’t close to a good player when we traded for him. I know that because The Eddy Curry Study was how I landed on this site.

    Yes, but it was the salary that made him a disaster, not the trade. The 2006 pick was sadly unprotected, but Curry, even in his underachievement, was better than Tim Thomas and Michael Sweetney went on to be. Acquiring him, despite having the recently signed Jerome James at center, wasn’t a bad move. He was young and showed potential to be highly effective on offense. It was the length of the contract that ruined the Knicks, and the fact that he didn’t step on a basketball court for the second half of it, rendering it truly untradeable all the way to the bitter end.

  132. DRed

    If we had Mozgov as our backup backup center this year I wonder if he’d have played more than 14 minutes.

  133. Donnie Walsh

    And Ephus: you left trading “fragile” Camby and a pick (Nene!) for McDyess and his one non-broken kneecap!

  134. DRed

    Giving up a first round pick, 2 second round picks, and the right to switch a second first round pick for a young player who projected to be, at best, a good offense, no defense/no rebounding center is a bad trade, even without the contract. Drafting Eddy Curry high was at least arguably defensible. Eddy Curry had spent 4 years in the NBA by the time we dealt for him. We basically knew what kind of player Eddy Curry was. Trading valuable draft picks to acquire a guy who wasn’t likely to be good was bad.

  135. flossy

    Woodson is obviously terrible and needs to go. But no really good coach is going to want to catch this flaming bag of dog shit in mid season. I hope Lawrence Frank gets fed up with his demotion by Jason Kidd and quits. Frank has at least coached a top 5 NBA defense a couple of times in his career and fits the bill for “reasonably competent NBA placeholder coach.” With a new hand at the wheel and Chandler back, I feel like the Knicks could at least raise their level of play to “watchable” from “soul-sucking.” Then the long term coaching situation could be addressed in the offseason once it becomes clear whether Melo is even staying or what.

    Bonus: hiring Frank away from the Nets would be the kind of screw-you-Prokorov move that Dolan would probably love, enough so that he might do it even though Frank isn’t CAA

  136. Owen

    “Yes, but it was the salary that made him a disaster, not the trade. The 2006 pick was sadly unprotected, but Curry, even in his underachievement, was better than Tim Thomas and Michael Sweetney went on to be.”

    What DRed said.

    Eddy Curry wasn’t worth rostering for the minimum let alone trading valuable assets for. Said at the time. Repeated ad nauseam while he was here. Remains true in retrospect.

    Not an Eddy Curry fan.

    What did those picks turn into? Someone remind me….

  137. Brian Cronin

    What did those picks turn into? Someone remind me….

    LaMarcus Aldridge (who the Bulls then foolishly traded for Tyrus Thomas) and Joakim Noah.

    So brutal.

    The worst part of the Curry deal is that John Paxson made it clear after the fact that he would have agreed to a Top 3 protected deal, but Isiah didn’t try for it. How insane is that?

  138. BigBlueAL

    Knicks should thank the Yankees for taking the attention away from them for tomorrow and possibly the next week or so depending on how active they remain signing players.

  139. Owen

    What happened to 189 million?

    And what happened to the daily news threads? Too much churn? Gets difficult to load on phone…..

  140. KJG

    at 152. I’m watching PHL ORL last night and I’m wondering how its so easy for two rookies to create 1) their own shot and 2) the teams offense… Cause when I watch the Knicks, NO ONE can do exactly that… none of em… I watched Orlando swing the ball around, i think early in the 4th quarter, miss a shot and then get the rebound and do it again and i’m thinking to myself, this team isnt supposed to be good yet if they moved the ball like this against the knicks, there is the possibility that all 5 knick defenders would be on the opposite side of the court from where the ball was… while we might have more “talent” our knicks are bunch of plodding, slow, outworked and outmatched players… we have 1.5 players playing with 100% energy, 100% of the time… TH2 and half of melo, which i guess means we only have 1 player right now playing 100% at 100%… (anchorman sex panther moment)… i was watching the sixers constantly crash the offensive glass and i just started to weep on my couch… im familiar with 4 to 6 names on that team and i yearn for the effort of their entire roster… to make things worse, i live just outside of philly and i get to see their effort night after night…

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