Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, April 19, 2014

Orlando 116, Knicks 110

For 34 minutes it appeared that the Knicks would cruise to their second straight win in Florida. Unfortunately the team sputtered down the stretch, eventually yielding the lead for good with 7 minutes remaining. As I noted on the Daily Dime, New York’s offense has let them down:

The Knicks followed up a meager shooting night Sunday in South Beach (43.8 percent effective field goal percentage) with a pathetic 41.3 percent in Orlando. And at the center of the problem is Anthony.

In four games for New York, Melo has done well by traditional statistics, averaging 27 points per game. However, advanced stats show him to be a drain on the offense.

Anthony has taken 93 field goal attempts to net 108 points, a poor ratio. And while the league average in true shooting percentage is usually around 54 percent, Anthony has a TS% of 50.2 percent for New York. Compare those numbers to Chauncey Billups, who has scored 93 points on only 49 shots, with a 65.5 TS% in the blue and orange, and it’s clear who has been the better Knick thus far.

But down the stretch against the Magic, Anthony missed all three of his field goal attempts, turned the ball over once and managed only four points.

Last night, their defense was at fault as well. The Magic shot a robust 58.0% eFG%, as New York failed to find an answer for Dwight Howard (30 pts, 15 fga), Jameer Nelson (26 pts, 16 fga), and Ryan Anderson (16 pts, 6 fga). In the last 14 minutes of the game the trio torched the Knicks for 31 points.

And while Billups & Stoudemire matched their efficiency (60 pts, 29 fga), Carmelo Anthony had another poor shooting night. Anthony needed 24 shots to accumulate 25 points, which ultimately led to New York’s poor shooting. What’s obvious so far is that the Knicks have yet to get the most out of ‘Melo’s talents.

107 comments on “Orlando 116, Knicks 110

  1. Frank

    Not sure if this was mentioned during the game thread –
    and not to excuse Melo for a grossly inefficient game or to blame the refs, but he got ZERO calls last night. There were probably 5 no-calls on drives to the basket that certainly would have been called by 9 out of 10 officiating crews. Seriously, Wade would have shot 24 free throws last night if it were him. It very easily could have been 32 points on 20 shots for Melo if those 4-5 get called. The crazy thing is that refs were very whistle-happy last night, and still didn’t give Melo his due.

  2. totti

    Congratulations Mike,
    you earned it for all your comments always balanced, not the case for most of the rest NY knicks writers.
    Honestly, it seems very difficult to have the right opinions because these opinions may change every day, for all the positives things knicks have gained and for all the negatives, both having the same weight.

    In France they say “petit à petit l’oiseau fait son nid” (little by little the bird makes his nest), knicks management did not show the same patience of birds.

  3. Jake S.

    So let me get this straight, Mike. After four games, the Knicks have buyers remorse? Four games? You’re starting to sound like our hacky beat writers.

  4. TDM

    Went to the Rangers-Sabres game last night. Place went nuts when they posted the half time score for the Knicks. Got the bad news when I got home. Not going to win a lot of game with the bench shooting 4-18. Not to mention when your best rebounder is a 6’7″ sg.

    Could have used a guy like Earl Barron on the boards last night. First game with Bucks – 16 min / 4 pts / 9 rbs / 1 blk.

  5. d-mar

    I really love the NY sports media, with each Knick win or loss since the Melo deal it’s over the top hyperbole. Today it’s “Knicks come crashing back to earth” or “back to reality”. And ESPN.com has a big picture of Melo on its homepage with the caption “buyer’s remorse?”

    Yeah, that was really a brutal loss last night, most NBA teams would have gone into Orlando and blown their doors off. Splitting 2 games in Florida is a disappointment of monumental proportions. And get rid of that bum Anthony!

  6. taggart4800

    Mike, nice piece. Its not ‘Buyer’s remorse’ its just simple fact, although we are in the early stages of this union it is clear to see that neither billups nor anthony is feeling comfortable within the system. The difference being of course that Billups has found a way to be very effective without running the P&R and is just playing smart basketball. elo on the other hand looks like he is forcing the issue and really doesn’t look comfortable. I sincerely hope that it is not Melo’s ego that is causing him to heave contested 3′s and barrel into the lane out of control. If Melo had played what the defense had given him last night he could have had considerably more assists because their focus on him was still pretty intense. In fact Melo did quite the opposite for large parts of the game and rarely looked to pass when driving to the basket. The play towards the end of the game when he got hacked by possibly 3 or 4 guys meant there was at least 2 unguarded teamates on the floor. one of which was STAT who was no more than 5 ft behind him. Now, that was all happening fairly quickly and they have not practiced enough to know where everyone is going to be but his apetite for passing seems to be considerably lower than that for scoring.

  7. latke

    Congrats on getting the frontpage of ESPN, Mike. So far, I think you have to concede that Chandler and Gallo would have done more than ‘Melo. The difference has been the point guard swap. If Billups misses some games, this fact will become readily apparent.

    That doesn’t mean that Anthony will not adjust. I still believe he will. I don’t think he’ll ever be more than a slight upgrade over what we had though, which is fine. If we keep Billups, that’s one major upgrade and one slight upgrade, and that puts us firmly in the second tier. One more significant upgrade and we’ll have a small shot at getting to holy land.

  8. David Crockett

    I’m not overly surprised by the low efficiency, but remain convinced that it’ll work itself out. Melo’s not going to be high efficiency but he’s not this bad.

    A bigger worry for me is that he’s confirming my worse fears about being a ball stopper. Where Amare impressed me with his court vision (if not always the actual pass) almost right away, so far Melo strikes me as myopic by comparison. We’re running many of the same isos we ran for Amare early in the season, but where he hit cutters like Chandler and Fields I see Melo missing those guys. So they stop moving. I don’t think Melo is selfish as much as he lacks vision.

    Unrelated note. Did they move Bill Walker into Gallo’s locker or something? Walker seems to be taking up the mantle of formerly-indifferent-defender-turned-pseudo-stopper.

    Is it safe to say that Shelden Williams played his way into D’Antoni’s dog house? That man has terrible hands.

  9. taggart4800

    I am definately not going to sit here and call Melo a bust after 4 games but when you command $17 million dollars you also have to be acutely aware that if your game is inferior to other players making similar money then you will be criticised.
    I think the real point is that whilst all the other members of the team appear to be trying to fit their games together as best they can whilst they don’t know each other, Melo is still trying to play the way he always has with what appears to be very little interest in improving the performance of his team mates.
    On a positive note, I really like that screen and curl play they run in the left corner. Again if Melo is willing to pass there are lots of options for him there, with Billups in the corner STAT in the high post and possibly trailing as well as Shooters on the weak side.

  10. totti

    Knicks can beat anyone now because they have their big 3. They are also capped out and stuck, without valuable assets or good youth to trade. Fields is making the fans regretting Gallo and Ill Will. And Mozgov.
    Significant upgrades don’t come without money.
    But i concede, knicks are relevant again, their matches are often on tnt now.

  11. taggart4800

    How about a Lakers style triangle offense with Melo and Amare as Gasol and Bynum?

  12. knickterp

    I love advanced stats in baseball, but the premise of this discussion reveals their utter lack of usefulness in basketball. First, in both last night’s game and in Miami, Melo’s ability to score from the opening tip kept the Knicks within shouting distance early on, rather than getting slaughtered by twenty in the opening quarter. Second, the Knicks lost what should have been an easy win last night because their 3-point specialists were AWFUL, failing to convert on open look after open look (and I think those open looks are due in large part to an offensive presence like Melo). Not to mention the fact that the darling of the advanced statistics, Landry Fields, played like an absolute dog on offense. In fact, I think he just missed another open 3.

  13. Grymm

    Let’s not get carried away now. I would agree that Melo is taking too many shots, but the Knicks are not operating with a full set of offensive plays. They don’t have much of a functioning PnR which is often the heart of the offense. We saw this at the beginning of the year with Stat before they got the PnR going. He was a turnover machine and not playing too well.

    If over the last 4 games, Melo sank 5 more shots out of 108, he’d have a TS% of 55% which is pretty much average. That’s a little over a shot a game. I’d say a high usage, low efficiency scorer moving to a team that now doesn’t have a functioning offensive playset missing one more shot per game than you expect is not a tragedy in fitment.

    When I watched last night’s game, I saw Orlando put up 101 points in 3 quarters (1st, 3rd, 4rth). I saw a point guard who might be 5′ 10″ driving to the basket and the help being late. I saw the bench provide pretty much no help. The starting front court combined for 12 rebounds – which is one more than the starting shooting guard got. I saw Dwight Howard receiving the ball with his defender already pushed inside the circle under the hoop. Last time we played Orlando, we were down 18 at the half and clawed our way back to lose by 9. It was pretty competitive this time.

  14. dsulz

    Fact is, I felt like we were the better team out there last night. My bigger issue, at this point, is not any sense of ‘Buyer’s Remorse.’ We made the trade and so far it feels like we were made better in some ways without getting worse. The point Mike made in his article that I think is reaaaaallly important (congrats on your article, btw, Mike), was this:

    “Prior to the big trade, New York had a potent offense and a weak defense, and needed depth at point guard and center. And while the Knicks added offensive firepower in Melo, they never addressed some of their biggest weaknesses before the trade deadline.”

    Really, this frustrates me more than anything. And it was totally the reason we lost last night. Jameer Nelson is not Derrick Rose. Chauncy was pooped by the end (the play where Jameer split the trap showed that really clearly) and the reason why is b/c the offense goes haywire whenever Douglas steps in at point. Same with our lack of size. Jameer should frankly have never been allowed to get to the rim on a few of those layups, especially after he started getting so hot. In other words: the strength of our new team put us in a commanding position to win the game (I don’t see our old team putting up that 37-15 2nd quarter). And then we lost the game because of the SAME DAMN WEAKNESSES we’ve had all year.

    I guess Jeffries will help a bit. But tonight, without Chauncy, I’m pretty fearful about the kind of dysfunction we might see tonight. Is it really that hard to acquire a Ramon Sessions and a Marcin Gortat? Argh

  15. BIG STAT

    For a little while now I’ve kinda begun to think this blog sucked. The knowledge for good analysis is no doubt there, but half the time the posts (and comments as well) are the kind of ignorance you’d expect to see on ESPN, I guess thats what you get for being affiliated. I’m sorry to say, but Knickerblogger is weak. I’m going to theknicksblog.com, I like what I’ve gotten over there much more.

  16. Mike Kurylo Post author

    knickterp:

    Not to mention the fact that the darling of the advanced statistics, Landry Fields, played like an absolute dog on offense.In fact, I think he just missed another open 3.  

    Make a joke about the guy that goes 1-5 from three (Landry Fields) that makes $475K, but not the guy that goes 1-5 from three and misses 11 other shots (Carmelo Anthony) and makes $17M. Granted Landry Fields hasn’t been great these last 4 games either (his TS% has dipped to 51.2%) but let’s just assume that Fields’ goes on to be a huge disappointment from here on in. At least he’s not going to be on the books until 2015.

  17. clydefrazier10

    D’Antoni is the issue, not Melo. I agree maybe Melo doesn’t fit his style, but when you have two guys like Melo and Amare, you adapt your system to work with them. Riley won with the fast-break Lakers, and then changed his style for both the Knicks and Heat (one could argue he is a more defensive-minded, beat-you-up style naturally and actually changed his style for the Lakers). Melo has been hitting the boards, and asked to guard LeBron the last 7 minutes the other night, showing he wants to take defense seriously. It’s on D’Antoni to make this work.

  18. Son of Tastycakes

    Tastycakes encouraged me to get involved. So this is my first post. I’ve been reading you guys and your posts are first rate giving me a new perspective on how to look at the game.

    Having said that I think a little patience is required with this new team.
    I have watched almost every game so far this year. The loss last night was the first that I did not feel dejected. I saw potential for a very competitive, tough match for all the elites and with time — the rest of this year — and training camp next year ( plus some possible off season acquisitions) we’re going to have a big winner.

    One last thing — the half glass full — look what’s been accomplished in a short period of time.

  19. jaylamerique

    Mike Kurylo:
    Make a joke about the guy that goes 1-5 from three (Landry Fields) that makes $475K, but not the guy that goes 1-5 from three and misses 11 other shots (Carmelo Anthony) and makes $17M. Granted Landry Fields hasn’t been great these last 4 games either (his TS% has dipped to 51.2%) but let’s just assume that Fields’ goes on to be a huge disappointment from here on in. At least he’s not going to be on the books until 2015.  

    that is not a fair comparison and lacks context. During the game, whenever Anthony got the ball the magic sent Howard to shade his side of the court. it was like a double team. The Bucks did the same thing, which led to a couple easy Turiaf baskets. So, Anthony is facing more attention when he gets the ball so its hard for him to score. Fields is just missing open shots.

  20. Nick C.

    I think the rotations sucked at the end. On at least two or three plays they would collapse on the middle and then the pass would come out to a wide open Anderson or Nelson or whoever. In Melo’s defense he did make a few pases out to wide open shooters for 3. We all know how that worked out. One thing while Melo is not getting those foul calls Billups is going to the line like crazy, last noght was a career high and I think two of the previous 3 games were season highs. That’s what’s keeping the team above water, so to speak, and allows him to post astronomical 93 points on 49 FGA with a EF% of 49.0 (league avg. 49.7) and making 39% of his shots. Historically he is around 5-6 FTA/36 (which is probably above average or better) but with NYK he is 13.8. That’s absurd and if it’s not a result in a change in his style of play, which seems odd to think that it is, can’t possibly be sustainable.

  21. DS

    The trade sucks. The Knicks have cashed in and set a very low ceiling for themselves even if they’re better in the short-term.

    Miami and Boston have become the “new model” of how to build a team but no one ever mentions Chicago. The Bulls consistently “missed out” on stars because they were hesitant to relinquish young talent and yet they now have a young, deep team who is already on the brink of title contention and yet they are in a very good cap situation.

    Instead of following that model, we’re a watered down version of Heat w/o the defense. We now have to pray for a lopsided trade or for a late draft pick to turn into the next Manu to keep title hopes alive.

  22. Frank

    DS: The trade sucks. The Knicks have cashed in and set a very low ceiling for themselves even if they’re better in the short-term.
    Miami and Boston have become the “new model” of how to build a team but no one ever mentions Chicago. The Bulls consistently “missed out” on stars because they were hesitant to relinquish young talent and yet they now have a young, deep team who is already on the brink of title contention and yet they are in a very good cap situation.
    Instead of following that model, we’re a watered down version of Heat w/o the defense. We now have to pray for a lopsided trade or for a late draft pick to turn into the next Manu to keep title hopes alive.  

    OK – let’s be fair here –
    #1 – Chicago had the benefit of making a trade with Isiah Thomas. We have had no such opportunity. It was that trade that landed Noah.

    #2 – Chicago, despite having only a 1.7% chance of winning the draft lottery, won the draft lottery and chose Derrick Rose.

    So basically Chicago lucked into their 2 best players. That is not “smart management”, although they’ve done a reasonably good job not messing things up. That’s just luck.

    Re: Boston – they built their team the same way we did. Trading for high-priced high profile vets, then trying to draft the supporting pieces. It so happened that they drafted well in Perkins (now gone) and Rondo. The most important thing that happened is that they installed a defensive system under Thibodeau that has turned them into the best defense in the league.

    That’s what we need to do.

    And meanwhile – we are only 4 GAMES into the Melo/Billups era. During that time we beat Milwaukee, had a huge letdown against CLE, then beat Miami in their own building, then lost to a better team. I see nothing to be ashamed or pessimistic about. If we’re 15 games from now and still .500 that’s another story.

  23. Mike Kurylo Post author

    clydefrazier10: D’Antoni is the issue, not Melo.I agree maybe Melo doesn’t fit his style, but when you have two guys like Melo and Amare, you adapt your system to work with them.Riley won with the fast-break Lakers, and then changed his style for both the Knicks and Heat (one could argue he is a more defensive-minded, beat-you-up style naturally and actually changed his style for the Lakers).Melo has been hitting the boards, and asked to guard LeBron the last 7 minutes the other night, showing he wants to take defense seriously.It’s on D’Antoni to make this work.  

    Perhaps. But then again Riley had two distinct teams, which he played to their strengths. Imagine if Magic Johnson had to run with Oakley, Bonner, & Mason. Ice cream and steak are both delicious. I wouldn’t want them on the same plate.

  24. steveoh

    We killed Amar’e during the first ten games of this season – and that was with a full preseason to learn the offense.

    Now, he’s continually surprising us with his unselfishness and overall game, and there’s rarely a peep.

    We know what Melo is and isn’t. But taking how we judged Amar’e based on what we thought we knew about him and then how he changed our opinion, isn’t giving Melo more than a week to adapt his game worth a shot?

  25. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Son of Tastycakes: Having said that I think a little patience is required with this new team.
    I have watched almost every game so far this year. The loss last night was the first that I did not feel dejected. I saw potential for a very competitive, tough match for all the elites and with time — the rest of this year — and training camp next year ( plus some possible off season acquisitions) we’re going to have a big winner.

    I’ll give you this: for about 34 minutes I was dipping my hat in ketchup. Does this need more time? Yes. But right now it’s not looking good.

  26. latke

    jaylamerique:
    that is not a fair comparison and lacks context. During the game, whenever Anthony got the ball the magic sent Howard to shade his side of the court. it was like a double team. The Bucks did the same thing, which led to a couple easy Turiaf baskets. So, Anthony is facing more attention when he gets the ball so its hard for him to score. Fields is just missing open shots.  

    You know who else could pretty much dominate a game unless you double teamed him? Eddy Curry. Ignoring defense, what made Curry not very good (even in his best years) was the fact that once you double-teamed him, he pretty much always made a bad decision. Anthony is not as bad as Eddy Curry at passing out of double teams, and there were a few times that shooters missed last night off Carmelo passes, but ‘Melo also made a lot of bad decisions. If you drive into three defenders, that’s just dumb, and even if you got hit on the wrist and the refs didn’t call it, it still was a foolish decision.

    ‘Melo seemed to catch the ball on several possessions in this game and think “I haven’t shot in a while. It’s time for me to get a shot up.” No matter what offense you’re in, that’s a poor rationale for using a possession.

    No one is saying that this is the forever-melo. This is just the ‘melo we have right now. To me though it’s more speculative to look to the future and say “he’ll get better because he’ll adjust his game,” when after four games the only adjustment we’ve seen from him is that he’s more willing to pull up in transition for 3. Is it time to start calling mommy and crying about how the knicks are doomed? Far from it. Would I, at 1:1 odds, bet on the Knicks to win a championship in the next five years? No, but I would take that bet at 5:1.

  27. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Jake S.: So let me get this straight, Mike. After four games, the Knicks have buyers remorse? Four games? You’re starting to sound like our hacky beat writers.  

    For buyers remorse, I would have been in on the purchase. For lack of a better analogy, Carmelo Anthony is the G.I. Joe Killer Whale you got for Christmas when you really wanted the Cobra Rattler.

  28. Jim Cavan

    David Crockett: A bigger worry for me is that he’s confirming my worse fears about being a ball stopper. Where Amare impressed me with his court vision (if not always the actual pass) almost right away, so far Melo strikes me as myopic by comparison. We’re running many of the same isos we ran for Amare early in the season, but where he hit cutters like Chandler and Fields I see Melo missing those guys. So they stop moving. I don’t think Melo is selfish as much as he lacks vision.

    I think that’s exactly right. We were saying the same things about Amar’e early in the season. Now, it seems like every game Amar’e surprises us with a great pass to a cutting teammate and general efficient, unselfish play. To the extent that he’s without a doubt destined to be the vocal / emotional leader of this team, and knowing that he has no problem whatsoever with calling guys out for their shortcomings — including, I think it will soon be shown, Melo — I think he helps Melo eventually sort this stuff out. Who knows, maybe with Amar’e's help Melo learns the nuances more quickly than even Amar’e did.

    Obviously we’re talking about two different animals here. Melo has always been a volume scorer who takes a lot of shots. So it might be more difficult for him to reign that in than it was for Amar’e. But a big reason I think Amar’e was pressing more earlier in the season was because he really was the only reliable offensive option. Melo knows he’s not the only weapon available. I just think he’ll figure it out.

  29. Mike Kurylo Post author

    jaylamerique: that is not a fair comparison and lacks context. During the game, whenever Anthony got the ball the magic sent Howard to shade his side of the court. it was like a double team. The Bucks did the same thing, which led to a couple easy Turiaf baskets. So, Anthony is facing more attention when he gets the ball so its hard for him to score. Fields is just missing open shots.

    You can’t absolve Carmelo Anthony for the extra attention he receives. He’s been in the league 7 years, and has had this kind of attention from defenses for a while now. This is not some kind of new phenomenon.

  30. tenebrous

    I dont get it. amare 50+ wins by self. elo 40-50+ win by self. if i’m the coach I’ll have two teams out there. yep, 1 with state and 1 with elo. if u play them at separate times u get to rest them and the role players can contribute and at that feel more empowered. same thing for wade 40-50+ wins by self and lb 50+ win by self.

  31. massive

    Melo’s game should be fine. I think this is more of him not being familiar with his teammates and the system than anything. I think once Melo gets acclimated here, he (along with Amar’e and Billups) will be killing opposing teams on a nightly basis. No reason to worry, especially when Melo starts getting those calls (he’s been getting hosed on the road).

  32. tenebrous

    having said that I do like the way the team looks and will look better with jef. ironically jef can give stat and elk the spacing they need. sorry but fields and ac gotta let it go. I like field and Andy backing up cb.

  33. mb2bm55

    Look I’m thrilled the Knicks got Carmelo and they will figure out how to deploy him effectively soon. However, My opinion prior to the trade was this: From Carmelo’s perspective The triangle offense run by the Lakers is a far better match for his game than D’Antoni’s system due to the triangle’s reliance on post ups and Iso’s. In fact, Carmelo is probably the ideal triangle offense player. This is throwing out the fact that it would’ve been a 1 for 1 swap so it’d be easier to integrate him quickly. That all being said (and behind us notheless) Its much better that he’s back in his home town. Basically what Im getting at with the trade comparison is that D’Antoni needs to adjust his offense, picking one far more conducive to the slow half court games of Carmelo and even Billups for that matter- who happens to be hot but would benefit from something much more resembling the triangle as well. In the right offense with good shooters around him Melo could still have the best CAREER of any player of his generation. He may not be quite as good as Lebron at everything, but what he is good at, he’s the best at. The offense should be more tailored for his game.

  34. JK47

    It was a weird game last night. For one, we didn’t get murdered on the boards– we had 11 o-boards, Orlando had 8. They outrebounded us for the game, but that was because we shot 37% and they shot 52%. Lots of defensive rebound opportunities for them. Once again our wings got most of the rebounds.

    We also were good at protecting the ball– only 8 turnovers for us, 15 for Orlando. The referees were going berzerk with the whistle– there were 97 free throw attempts in the game. It was just kind of a weird game to watch with very little flow.

    We lost because we couldn’t hit an open shot to save our lives and we allowed way too many open looks on jumpers in the fourth quarter. Shawne Wiliams, Landry Fields and Toney Douglas (and Carmelo Anthony, who hoisted 5 ill-advised treys) are looking pretty shaky as our outside shooting “threats.” Take out Chauncey Billups and we’re 3-21 from downtown. Landry had been shooting very well from beyond the arc until just recently, so maybe he’ll heat up again, but Shawne Williams has been pretty terrible for a solid month now.

    The expanded role of Extra E has been perhaps the most negative byproduct of the Carmelo trade. Counting on that guy to give you 25-30 minutes a night is a pretty scary proposition. He just simply isn’t all that good– he’s a fringe rotation player, not a starter, and sure as hell not a starting center.

  35. mb2bm55

    Oh and somebody needs to beat Amare with the reboudning stick pls. what’d he have like 2 or 3 rebounds last night? Cmon man

  36. tenebrous

    No one is farmilar with elo’s game. they are not sure if he’s shooting or what. they r not sure to go for the rebound or wait for a pass or run to an open spot.

  37. massive

    Stat gets 50 wins by himself? I would hardly call a supporting cast of Nash, Hill, J-Rich, and Lopez “by himself.” Same thing with Melo’s supporting cast in Denver. Billups, Afflalo, K-Mart, and Nene is a pretty damn good supporting cast.

  38. DS

    Frank,

    We can’t do what Boston did. Because none of our players are as good as Garnett and we have no hope of luring one anymore because our cap space and trade bait are almost gone.

    I happen to disagree that the Bulls’ fortunes are dumb luck but my main point was that the Knicks should have embraced going forward as a team with a superstar; a star or two; young role players with upside; some cap room and modest draft picks a la the Bulls with the idea that they could slowly and patiently cash in for the pieces that would bring them closer to championship.

    Now they’re going forward with 2 stars, Fields and little else with very little cap room to offer free agents.

    Do you honestly prefer the latter?

  39. tenebrous

    they r not communicating on d. cb gets hurt. td gets hurt. either jump and get a faul or make the shot. pass don’t hold. I know the game slows down in the playoffs but if we make the playoff yes if we do i’d rather win by running than trying to win with a big shot with the shot and no time remianing on the clock a la patrik a la ______ who ever u can think of. I like d system attack and get back on d. isos r only good for koby n koby don’t like ny.

  40. tenebrous

    massive: Stat gets 50 wins by himself? I would hardly call a supporting cast of Nash, Hill, J-Rich, and Lopez “by himself.” Same thing with Melo’s supporting cast in Denver. Billups, Afflalo, K-Mart, and Nene is a pretty damn good supporting cast.  

    by self meaning the one the defense converges on

  41. Caleb

    One game is one game (or, four games are four games) but if

    jaylamerique:
    During the game, whenever Anthony got the ball the magic sent Howard to shade his side of the court. it was like a double team. The Bucks did the same thing, which led to a couple easy Turiaf baskets. So, Anthony is facing more attention when he gets the ball so its hard for him to score.   

    Then don’t shoot it 25 times! Move the ball! Gallo might be the extreme opposite, which is why he had those games taking 6 or 7 shots, plus trips to the line. With Melo there should be a middle ground, but that is the basic complaint..

  42. dmull

    Is it ironic to use advanced metrics on a four game sample size?

    I’m guessing if Melo put up great advanced metrics over four games everyone would be saying “relax it’s a small sample size, he’ll regress to his normal efficiency numbers.”

    As was noted here, the Knicks shot 23% from deep last night and if you watched the game those were mostly good looks, often supplied by Melo on the skip pass or off the drive. If Fields and Douglas knock down 3 of those, Melo has 5 assists, people praise his passing, ignore his efficiency in another big road win over a Eastern conference contender and all is well.

    I definitely get the ball-stopping concerns, but it’s the NBA, this isn’t your father’s rec league. Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan were ball-stoppers and they have a lot of rings to show for it. No need to bring up the “OMG DID YOU JUST COMPARE MELO TO MJ AND KOBE?!?!?!?!?!?!” Just saying, it’s not that big of an issue if he is going to get himself and others good looks. SSOL is great for putting up big offensive numbers but it’s not as if he’s butchering Phil Jackson’s triangle offense or something. Give it some time, see how it develops, critique and react, don’t overreact.

    What I saw last night is what Mike initially said – a team that after 34 minutes looked much the best against one of the East’s top teams, on the road. They had major foul trouble and honestly I wasn’t surprised they collapsed.

  43. tenebrous

    tenebrous:
      

    tenebrous:
      

    by self meaning the top scorer plus stat is not a good helper for elo since stat is not a rebounder stat will not b a rebounder so he’s lost on the court when elk has the rock

  44. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    If Carmelo didn’t draw all of those double teams in his ISO sets, Billups wouldn’t be nearly as good at drawing fouls on scoring attempts.

    Can’t find that in the stats.

  45. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    dmull: Is it ironic to use advanced metrics on a four game sample size?

    It’s not ironic, just fallacious. And no one should be surprised by Carmelo’s play. Even if he “turns it around” in a larger sample, he’ll still be the 53 TS% player that we all know and overvalue.

  46. tenebrous

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    It’s not ironic, just fallacious. And no one should be surprised by Carmelo’s play. Even if he “turns it around” in a larger sample, he’ll still be the 53 TS% player that we all know and overvalue.  

    Yep elo

  47. tenebrous

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    It’s not ironic, just fallacious. And no one should be surprised by Carmelo’s play. Even if he “turns it around” in a larger sample, he’ll still be the 53 TS% player that we all know and overvalue.  

    Yep elo needs to become wc / supporting player to stat stat needs 20-30 a night if stat has the rock he can draw lots of fouls but stat is trying to c what elo does … well stat needs the rock like the beguiling of season. I like jef and dbrown on this team.

  48. Caleb

    @46 Billups was fantastic foul-drawer in Detroit, where Ben and Rasheed Wallace were the post-up options… so it’s not Carmelo that made him who he is. (although his actual number of attempts shot up, since Denver played the league’s fastest pace for a few years and Larry Brown’s Pistons played close to the slowest).

  49. tenebrous

    elo can shoot. can he shoot 3s like wc … how about deep 3s like wc … I think so

  50. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Caleb: @46 Billups was fantastic foul-drawer in Detroit, where Ben and Rasheed Wallace were the post-up options… so it’s not Carmelo that made him who he is. (although his actual number of attempts shot up, since Denver played the league’s fastest pace for a few years and Larry Brown’s Pistons played close to the slowest).  

    I was being sarcastic. Carmelo’s stats say he’s slightly above-average, but stats don’t tell the whole story, of course — I was making fun of the ignorance that helps Carmelo sign his max deals.

  51. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    tenebrous: elo can shoot. can he shoot 3s like wc … how about deep 3s like wc … I think so  

    Actually, he’s a bad 3PT shooter. There’s no debate about this. He’s not good at the deep ball.

  52. tenebrous

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Actually, he’s a bad 3PT shooter. There’s no debate about this. He’s not good at the deep ball.  

    perhaps, but who knows what tom brings if he has the spacing chuk it that’s all i’m

  53. Caleb

    @52 got the sarcasm!

    but interesting to look at. To be exact – Billups had 5.86 FTA per 36 minutes, over his Detroit career (16,001 minutes). In Denver he averaged 6.54 (6,855 minutes).

    But Denver’s pace, over the past 3 seasons, averaged 94.9 posessions per game. (I just averaged the years, didn’t weight the fewer games from the year he arrived and this year – it was very consistent so shouldn’t make much difference).

    Detroit’s pace from 2002-2009 was often the slowest in the league, averaging 87 posessions per game. Adjusted to Denver’s pace, Piston Chauncey would have averaged 6.39 FTAs – almost identical.

    I guess you could say he WOULD have declined, as he got older, and the fact he didn’t shows that playing next to Anthony helped him out. But it’s hard to see a significant effect.

    Not many people agree with me, but I don’t think NBA players – even great PGs like Steve Nash or Chris Paul – have more than a miniscule effect on the play of their teammates.

  54. tenebrous

    everyone saying it’s good for the Knicks being in the road that they can come together but hey they’re losing yes losing so how can they even communicate at dinner 10 games not sure. who get the ball stat or melo. than again jef is in so either can now have the game. wanted this one for walsh

  55. tenebrous

    interesting. very. so what ur saying is that cb plays well anywhere. ok great. I like cb. now back to elo, sorry coach but elo is on ur team and hence bench him or send him to the d-league …. comedy …. stat needs his 20-30 a night melo should relegate to wc duties

    Caleb: @52 got the sarcasm!but interesting to look at. To be exact – Billups had 5.86 FTA per 36 minutes, over his Detroit career (16,001 minutes). In Denver he averaged 6.54 (6,855 minutes).But Denver’s pace, over the past 3 seasons, averaged 94.9 posessions per game. (I just averaged the years, didn’t weight the fewer games from the year he arrived and this year – it was very consistent so shouldn’t make much difference).
    Detroit’s pace from 2002-2009 was often the slowest in the league, averaging 87 posessions per game. Adjusted to Denver’s pace, Piston Chauncey would have averaged 6.39 FTAs – almost identical.
    I guess you could say he WOULD have declined, as he got older, and the fact he didn’t shows that playing next to Anthony helped him out. But it’s hard to see a significant effect.
    Not many people agree with me, but I don’t think NBA players – even great PGs like Steve Nash or Chris Paul – have more than a miniscule effect on the play of their teammates.  

  56. tenebrous

    Skywalker can get a shot anywhere on the court. will someone tell him he’s playing in the nba. while ur at it pls don’t forget to mention that stat and elo r also his teammates. also tu should shoot shoot tu u got the spacing. having said that about skywalker – i like dbrown.

  57. tenebrous

    actually Howard likes the money over the ring so who knows. plus maybe well all b watching the d-league soon anyway. they play tough down there actually. it’s not reality it’s actuality. btw would the knicks have won a championship with Ewing and Barkley …. also if Knicks would have gotten Garnett would they have won that ’08 ring …. stat and elo … best Knicks could have done given the inaptitude of mda playing (believing) in only 7-8 players

  58. latke

    for people talking about Billups and ‘Melo being better suited for a slow game, how do explain the fact that the Nuggets were the fastest team in the league?

    And for people arguing against the notion that building through the draft doesn’t work, why don’t we look at the roster the knicks would have had they not traded any picks OR signed any free agents:

    Joaquim Noah (traded for Eddy Curry)
    Lamarcus Aldridge (traded for Eddy Curry)
    Nene Hilario (traded for Antonio McDyess)
    Danilo Gallinari (traded for Carmelo Anthony)
    Trevor Ariza (traded for Steve Francis)
    David Lee (traded for Anthony Randolph, Ronny Turiaf, Kelenna Azubuike)
    Channing Frye (traded for Zach Randolph)
    Jordan Hill (traded for Tracy McGrady)
    Renaldo Balkman

    We wouldn’t have had Chandler, since he was Chicago’s pick — part of the swap we made when trading Curry.

    That team has 3 guys who either have been or are very likely to be all-stars at some point in their careers (lee, noah, aldridge), and two more guys who look to be at some point or have been near all stars (Nene and Gallinari). Add to that the fact that if we had not acquired some of these overrated players for youth, we would have had worse records during the 2000s and would have had higher picks.

    I’m not saying the Carmelo Anthony trade is akin to earlier trades we’ve made, but it’s also not akin to the trades/free agent signings that all the championship teams in the last decade have made.

  59. massive

    ESPN NBA – NY Daily News: Knicks PG Chauncey Billups (17 ppg) expected to miss 2 games with left thigh bruise

    Looks like we’ll get to see how this team does without Chauncey. I think I really hate Dwight Howard now.

  60. Caleb

    @62 Nuggets went from fastest team in the league with Iverson, to 6th, 5th and 3rd in the Billups years. (I only know because I just looked it up for #52).

    I think those guys can play well in a lot of different systems.

  61. Caleb

    The list isn’t that realistic because if the Knicks had picked those guys they would have quickly improved and not kept drafting in the top 10.

    On the other hand you aren’t cherry-picking with 20/20 hindsight, saying we would have taken Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo, etc.

    I agree with your larger point.

  62. NateRobinson

    Now who the heck is the starting PG. Or the backup for that matter. Fields better justify him not being traded instead of Gallo, Chandler, Timo, or Randolph for that matter. He has been playing poorly as of late. And unlike most Knick fans I do not see him having a high ceiling.

  63. NateRobinson

    JK47: Get ready for 30 minutes of Anthony Carter.  

    Oh My uhGod!

    In game commentary for the Knicks-Hornets game:

    Carter with the corner 3!!!! airball…

    Melo doubled he passes to the wide open corner, Jeffries with the 3!!! airball…

    Stoudemire with the drive, dishes it out for the corner 3!!! Off the backboard by Shawne Williams…

    Williams has shot only 32 percent from 3s since February…

  64. latke

    Caleb: The list isn’t that realistic because if the Knicks had picked those guys they would have quickly improved and not kept drafting in the top 10.
    On the other hand you aren’t cherry-picking with 20/20 hindsight, saying we would have taken Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo, etc.
    I agree with your larger point.  

    There’s the one side where those guys make the team better, but the great thing about starting with young players is that they tend to not be that great their first season or two. I imagine the knicks would have been worse with rookie aldridge than with 2006/7 eddy curry. Plus, if you’re committed to rebuilding, you don’t sign guys are going to mess up your losing ways. Look at the Clippers. They have Griffin, who is probably better in his rookie season than Aldridge is now, and the clips still are only looking at about 28 wins. Add some overpaid, over the hill stars to that team and they might win 35.

  65. Spree8nyk8

    Once upon a time I saw a Knicks team that on paper showed promise and with a new star people had high hopes. That team started out winning 2 out of their first 3. Then went on to lose 7/8 and fall to 3-8 and oh noes….the sky be falling…..Then when that team turned around and won 14/15 how dare anyone consider a trade. Then when play leveled off over the next few months a trade was indeed struck. One that would move almost half of the team and bring in new players from all over the land. And despite defeating the evil king in his own castle, when they were defeated in yet another magical land it was again proclaimed…..The sky is indeed falling.

    Oh noes….how will we ever survive going 2-2 (with 3 road games) after bringing in six (be 8 by the end of this week) new players. It doesn’t make any sense. I mean why can’t these guys already have chemistry? I mean Melo makes so much money it only makes sense that he would walk in the door and score at an efficient rate, make every good pass, nail every shot. I mean why would anyone making that much money ever struggle. This team has never struggled before….I mean except that time they went 3-8 and the ten years before that, but other than that they never did right?

  66. Spree8nyk8

    totti: Knicks can beat anyone now because they have their big 3. They are also capped out and stuck  

    Hmmm, riddle me this batman, how many players do the knicks have signed after next season?

    I’ll save you the time. It’s 3. Melo, STAT and Balkman. We are far from stuck. The plan was for a big 3 and every move they have made was built towards making that. They saved Mr. Paul a seat at the table, don’t worry.

    I’ll still take Melo being aggressive and not always being efficient over Gallo being invisible most days. And for every 28 pt outburts Gallo has, Melo will end up with a 40-50pt outburst, wait and see. But you rest assured, on this board in particular there will always be tears. It is the nature of the beast here.

    When the season started I told myself from the get go that they would struggle early and to not put any stock in it. I told myself the same exact thing when they made the trade. They’ll struggle early, don’t put stock in it. Although I also told myself they may get some emotional W’s at the same time and not to put stock in those either. I won’t judge this team at all until they have at least 15 games in them. I just don’t see the point.

  67. tenebrous

    this blog is mad funnyally entertaining … lots of laughs in a good way … md is gonna play td and ac – md needs to play fields and Andy … but only td can penetrate so that leaves elo at point not bad if I’m the coach – elo at point – at least elo won’t pass and hide like fields and ac – Andy should play he can shoot and feilds should point also if md tell him to stay up and wait for the 3 at the top while first passing sw who passes to stat or melo for the shot – or have melo point pass catch penatrate shoot or dish – actually jef can brig up the ball pass to stat or melo run for the rebound while another rotates tithe top of the key – since Felton doesn’t want to play with us there is really no pnr

  68. outoftowner

    Amare’s line in his 4th game as a Knick:

    14 points on 5-21 shooting. 8 TO’s.

    Just sayin’.

  69. NateRobinson

    Spree

    You could have not said it best. People here are blaming Melo and saying ‘I told you so’ like 4 games proves anything. Let him settle down and watch them pull it together. It takes more than 20 games to get in a grove and this team will have a lot of new pieces next year as well.

  70. tenebrous

    wonderfully said.

    Spree8nyk8: Once upon a time I saw a Knicks team that on paper showed promise and with a new star people had high hopes.That team started out winning 2 out of their first 3.Then went on to lose 7/8 and fall to 3-8 and oh noes….the sky be falling…..Then when that team turned around and won 14/15 how dare anyone consider a trade.Then when play leveled off over the next few months a trade was indeed struck.One that would move almost half of the team and bring in new players from all over the land.And despite defeating the evil king in his own castle, when they were defeated in yet another magical land it was again proclaimed…..The sky is indeed falling.Oh noes….how will we ever survive going 2-2 (with 3 road games) after bringing in six (be 8 by the end of this week) new players.It doesn’t make any sense.I mean why can’t these guys already have chemistry?I mean Melo makes so much money it only makes sense that he would walk in the door and score at an efficient rate, make every good pass, nail every shot.I mean why would anyone making that much money ever struggle.This team has never struggled before….I mean except that time they went 3-8 and the ten years before that, but other than that they never did right?  

  71. Spree8nyk8

    tenebrous: leaves elo at point not bad if I’m the coach – elo at point – at least elo won’t pass and hide like fields and ac –  

    lol, just out of curiosity, is there a reason you never seem to type MELO? it’s always ELO lol

  72. DDH

    So, I don’t want to starting posting as a defender of all things Carmelo, but for full disclosure I’ll state I’m a Cuse native who adopted the Nuggets as my favorite team and watched/followed 100% of the Nuggets games the last seven years. I’m obviously not a long-time Knicks fan, but I’m warming up to them as a team I can get behind, and I’ve appreciated most of the conversation I’ve read here over the last week or so. I’m also firmly on the side of advanced stats.

    That being said, I hate when they only serve as a jumping point for exaggerated analysis in a different direction. Just in this thread alone, it’s been implied Melo is a worse 3pt shooter than Chandler, and stated he has a “normal” TS% of 53%. In fact, Chandler shoots a career 32.6% from 3 and Anthony a career 31.1%. Not exactly a huge difference. Chandler’s TS% career is 52.7, Anthony’s is actually 54.4. Even taking Chandler’s improved last two years, it’s still about the same as Anthony. Point being, the argument re: shooting efficiency v. Melo is in favor of Gallo, not Chandler. And Anthony is a much better rebounder than Gallo.

    I know the argument is really more about all the players who were traded away v. Anthony in terms of both basketball value and contracts, but people should at least be accurate in their comparisons.

    I’ll just sign off by saying, having watched Anthony so much over the years, I’m confident he’s displaying most of his worst qualities right now because he’s forcing things. New environment, pressure to be the star, etc. He’ll settle down, and hopefully end up improving his overall production.

  73. BigBlueAL

    The Knicks have played 4 games since the trade, 3 of them against Top 5 defenses. Tonight they play the 6th best defense and will do so w/o Billups.

    Perspective people.

  74. tenebrous

    Spree8nyk8:
    lol, just out of curiosity, is there a reason you never seem to type MELO?it’s always ELO lol  

    Melo is too long. actually i like elk. he plays like an elk. so elk it is.

  75. Spree8nyk8

    It’s just kind of funny because when the season started and they were struggling it seemed like Amar’e was a ballstopper, he always got the ball 20 feet from the basket, and always got stripped. And everyone was freaking out about how we paid this guy 100 mil and got rid of david lee, how dare we…. Well, I kinda panicked and those statements got to me some and I remember thinking “what if they are right, oh no, could they be right?”.

    Well, they weren’t right. And they aren’t right now. This team is going to compete and eventually they are going to be a contender and hopefully bring it home. Don’t let this board drag you into believing otherwise, especially four games after the trade that brought the sky down. When it starts working out most of these guys will pull a Ted Nelson, so don’t you worry.

  76. Spree8nyk8

    tenebrous:
    Melo is too long. actually i like elk. he plays like an elk. so elk it is.  

    This is the funniest quote I’ve ever read here for multiple reasons lol. Thanks for that one Tenebrous lol.

  77. tenebrous

    well said. however, if he settles down he won’t b melo.

    DDH: So, I don’t want to starting posting as a defender of all things Carmelo, but for full disclosure I’ll state I’m a Cuse native who adopted the Nuggets as my favorite team and watched/followed 100% of the Nuggets games the last seven years.I’m obviously not a long-time Knicks fan, but I’m warming up to them as a team I can get behind, and I’ve appreciated most of the conversation I’ve read here over the last week or so. I’m also firmly on the side of advanced stats.That being said, I hate when they only serve as a jumping point for exaggerated analysis in a different direction.Just in this thread alone, it’s been implied Melo is a worse 3pt shooter than Chandler, and stated he has a “normal” TS% of 53%.In fact, Chandler shoots a career 32.6% from 3 and Anthony a career 31.1%.Not exactly a huge difference.Chandler’s TS% career is 52.7, Anthony’s is actually 54.4.Even taking Chandler’s improved last two years, it’s still about the same as Anthony.Point being, the argument re: shooting efficiency v. Melo is in favor of Gallo, not Chandler.And Anthony is a much better rebounder than Gallo.I know the argument is really more about all the players who were traded away v. Anthony in terms of both basketball value and contracts, but people should at least be accurate in their comparisons.I’ll just sign off by saying, having watched Anthony so much over the years, I’m confident he’s displaying most of his worst qualities right now because he’s forcing things.New environment, pressure to be the star, etc.He’ll settle down, and hopefully end up improving his overall production.  

  78. nicos

    Way too early to make any judgments on Melo- he could have had 4 or 5 assists if guys had been hitting the corner three. Just as troubling as the misses was the fact that both Fields and Williams passed up multiple wide open threes leading to contested long twos (many by Melo)- probably a combination of lack of confidence (as they’re both struggling a bit) and trying to be overly unselfish and get more shots for the new guys. In order for this offense to run correctly they have to take those wide open threes- at least everyone except AC! Too often, Fields and Williams aren’t even shot faking or holding the ball long enough to force the defense to rotate- they’re just swinging it immediately to the wing- negating any advantage the Knicks get from keeping the floor spread. My guess is that we’ll see a different Melo efficiency-wise when the guys start taking and making those corner threes and if we don’t then I think you can start to criticize the trade.

  79. dmull

    DDH: So, I don’t want to starting posting as a defender of all things Carmelo, but for full disclosure I’ll state I’m a Cuse native who adopted the Nuggets as my favorite team and watched/followed 100% of the Nuggets games the last seven years.I’m obviously not a long-time Knicks fan, but I’m warming up to them as a team I can get behind, and I’ve appreciated most of the conversation I’ve read here over the last week or so. I’m also firmly on the side of advanced stats.That being said, I hate when they only serve as a jumping point for exaggerated analysis in a different direction.Just in this thread alone, it’s been implied Melo is a worse 3pt shooter than Chandler, and stated he has a “normal” TS% of 53%.In fact, Chandler shoots a career 32.6% from 3 and Anthony a career 31.1%.Not exactly a huge difference.Chandler’s TS% career is 52.7, Anthony’s is actually 54.4.Even taking Chandler’s improved last two years, it’s still about the same as Anthony.Point being, the argument re: shooting efficiency v. Melo is in favor of Gallo, not Chandler.And Anthony is a much better rebounder than Gallo.I know the argument is really more about all the players who were traded away v. Anthony in terms of both basketball value and contracts, but people should at least be accurate in their comparisons.I’ll just sign off by saying, having watched Anthony so much over the years, I’m confident he’s displaying most of his worst qualities right now because he’s forcing things.New environment, pressure to be the star, etc.He’ll settle down, and hopefully end up improving his overall production.  

    Sharp post, stick around.

  80. Spree8nyk8

    If I look at anything over the past few games I look at the team starting to actually try to defend. I think the Cleveland game might have done more for the team as a loss than it ever could have as a win. Hopefully it will become a more consistent effort but when this team actually buckles down they play pretty good D. At some point all of those things are gonna start coming together. And that is gonna be fun to watch.

  81. NateRobinson

    @ 83

    Great point, the struggles are compounded because of the unfamiliarity to put it shortly.

    I can still remember the people that argued that David Lee was better than Stat because of their ‘advanced statistics’. Well they aren’t making much noise now are they?

  82. tenebrous

    criticize the trade?????? i still feel like i’m watching a video game … elk is in ny … since when?

  83. Spree8nyk8

    NateRobinson: @ 83Great point, the struggles are compounded because of the unfamiliarity to put it shortly.I can still remember the people that argued that David Lee was better than Stat because of their ‘advanced statistics’. Well they aren’t making much noise now are they?  

    Exactly my point. I think advanced statistics are great, but they should never replace your eyeballs.

  84. JK47

    David Lee’s struggles are quite perplexing to me, I have to say. He was playing okay for a stretch there in January, but then in February he’s been pretty awful again. He was remarkably consistent year after year with NYK, and he’s looked like a completely different player out in the Bay Area. At this point you can’t just blame it on Wilson Chandler’s tooth.

  85. DDH

    dmull:
    Sharp post, stick around.  

    Thanks, I will.

    On a much more serious note, I gotta say that I’ve noticed one glaring issue with the Knicks and D’Antoni’s rotation since paying closer attention. Andy Rautins must be freed to wreak havoc on The League immediately. Kid’s a beast! All 122 lbs of him. And his hair is super money…

    Glad I got that off my chest.

  86. tenebrous

    does anyone know what the statistics are for stat playing better or worse having rented DLees old apt?

  87. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Caleb:
    I guess you could say he WOULD have declined, as he got older, and the fact he didn’t shows that playing next to Anthony helped him out.   

    There’s no empirical evidence that backs up this claim. Billups didn’t decline as he should have, but why does that make Anthony responsible? It’s an easy answer (“Because Carmelo’s so good!”), but not necessarily a valid one.

  88. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    DDH: So, I don’t want to starting posting as a defender of all things Carmelo, but for full disclosure I’ll state I’m a Cuse native who adopted the Nuggets as my favorite team and watched/followed 100% of the Nuggets games the last seven years.I’m obviously not a long-time Knicks fan, but I’m warming up to them as a team I can get behind, and I’ve appreciated most of the conversation I’ve read here over the last week or so. I’m also firmly on the side of advanced stats.That being said, I hate when they only serve as a jumping point for exaggerated analysis in a different direction.Just in this thread alone, it’s been implied Melo is a worse 3pt shooter than Chandler, and stated he has a “normal” TS% of 53%.In fact, Chandler shoots a career 32.6% from 3 and Anthony a career 31.1%.Not exactly a huge difference.Chandler’s TS% career is 52.7, Anthony’s is actually 54.4.Even taking Chandler’s improved last two years, it’s still about the same as Anthony.Point being, the argument re: shooting efficiency v. Melo is in favor of Gallo, not Chandler.And Anthony is a much better rebounder than Gallo.I know the argument is really more about all the players who were traded away v. Anthony in terms of both basketball value and contracts, but people should at least be accurate in their comparisons.I’ll just sign off by saying, having watched Anthony so much over the years, I’m confident he’s displaying most of his worst qualities right now because he’s forcing things.New environment, pressure to be the star, etc.He’ll settle down, and hopefully end up improving his overall production.  

    Yeah! We can only hope he regresses back to being an above-average basketball player at $22M a year!

  89. Caleb

    To the general point of Melo vs. anti-Melo, I don’t really see anyone basing their opinion on the last 4 games – the concerns about efficiency, roster-building, etc. were raised when the trade went down, and why it was so controversial (on THIS board, at least).

    I don’t think he suddenly got worse in the last week, and I’m hoping MDA and the new situation will bring out a better player than he was in Denver, but some things just drive you crazy – like taking 5 3-pointers when you are a bad 3-point shooter, have always been a bad 3-point shooter and probably will always be a bad 3-point shooter.

  90. Caleb

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    There’s no empirical evidence that backs up this claim. Billups didn’t decline as he should have, but why does that make Anthony responsible? It’s an easy answer (“Because Carmelo’s so good!”), but not necessarily a valid one.  

    you stopped reading my post a little early.

  91. tenebrous

    elk – a bad 3pt shooter??? really??? u know who’s a bad 3pt shooter? the one who doesn’t take the shot.

  92. dubisaweapon

    Spree8nyk8: If I look at anything over the past few games I look at the team starting to actually try to defend.I think the Cleveland game might have done more for the team as a loss than it ever could have as a win.Hopefully it will become a more consistent effort but when this team actually buckles down they play pretty good D.At some point all of those things are gonna start coming together.And that is gonna be fun to watch.  

    AMEN

  93. jon abbey

    you know, I love to rip Knicks management as much as anyone, but people (two specifically) should really stop being dicks here. no one posting here made this trade, very few were gung-ho for it, but it happened and it’s done. if the new personnel/”plan” is impossible for you to root for, then don’t (and that’s not meant in an obnoxious way). cheer for Denver or the Clippers or whoever, but don’t take out your anger (justified or not) on us, because we are also long-suffering fans, just like you.

    (mild apologies for the language, sometimes it’s necessary)

  94. Brian Cronin

    It’s really odd to single out Ted Nelon’s statements about Amar’e Stoudemire and David Lee, since they’ve so far been right on the money. The difference in the Knicks this year as opposed to last sure hasn’t been due to the upgrade from Amar’e this year as compared to Lee last year, which was Ted’s position (that the upgrade from Amar’e to Lee is not gigantic, but rather it is the upgrade at all the other positions where the improvement was significant).

    Fields at the 2, Felton/Billups at the 1, Gallo/Melo at the 3, Turiaf at the 5. Those are the significant areas of improvement over last year’s Knicks team, not Amar’e over Lee. Which is all Ted said, that going from one All-Star 4/5 to a better All-Star 4/5 is not going to be a significant change, which it hasn’t been.

    If you misunderstood Ted’s position to be “Amar’e sucks!” or whatever, then that is, as stated, a misunderstanding of his position.

    Now, off the court, the difference has been significant, which is where I personally differed with Ted then and I still believe now – that whatever the actual difference between the two players was on the court, other NBA stars think there’s a large difference, so it helps with recruiting other stars. Same with Melo – if he gets the Knicks Paul or Williams, he was more than worth whatever the Knicks gave up to get him, no matter what Melo’s relative skill level is.

  95. Brian Cronin

    you know, I love to rip Knicks management as much as anyone, but people (two specifically) should really stop being dicks here. no one posting here made this trade, very few were gung-ho for it, but it happened and it’s done. if the new personnel/”plan” is impossible for you to root for, then don’t (and that’s not meant in an obnoxious way). cheer for Denver or the Clippers or whoever, but don’t take out your anger (justified or not) on us, because we are also long-suffering fans, just like you.

    It goes both ways, though. No one should be uncivil period, whether they disliked the trade or liked it.

  96. latke

    to be fair, jon, it is sort of what the article is about — whether the ‘melo decision might end up being a poor one. I’m all for rooting for NY, and I want ‘Melo to succeed, but when people start writing about how this deal was a no brainer, I feel obligated to state why I feel that is false.

    TBH, I’m ambivalent about the deal and will continue to believe that Carmelo has the talents to make a serious impact on this team and possibly take them deep into the playoffs. I will also continue to be somewhat skeptical until the guy shows some signs that he’s headed in the right direction. This game might end up being good for ‘melo. What little TD does know about running an offense, he knows from working with STAT, so perhaps ‘Melo will be forced into playing more off the ball (which IMO is the key to him being successful).

  97. jon abbey

    yeah, it’s just thread after thread, after months of talking about the same thing before it happened. it’s done now, let’s see how the team gels and who they can get in the next year or so to help out. I’m also ambivalent and skeptical, but it’s done.

    and if someone genuinely feels that the team is now irrevocably screwed (a legit perspective, although really that was the case once LeBron turned us down), then why are you still beating your head against the wall rooting for them (I don’t mean anyone specific here)? life is too short, find something that brings you more pleasure, like slashing Dolan’s limo’s brake lines, for instance.

  98. KnickfaninNJ

    DDH: Thanks, I will.
    On a much more serious note, I gotta say that I’ve noticed one glaring issue with the Knicks and D’Antoni’s rotation since paying closer attention.Andy Rautins must be freed to wreak havoc on The League immediately.Kid’s a beast!All 122 lbs of him.And his hair is super money…
    Glad I got that off my chest.   (Quote)

    If b….illup

    If billups is out. You might get to see Rautinz play

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